Does this photo prove that Oswald didn't even shoot JFK?

[Must_B_Free]

(added Billy Lovelady photo on the right)

- same hairline
- same angle, ears both visible in both photos
- same nose shadow
- same curve to edge of right jaw
- same curve to left bottom chin
- same eyebrows, same indentation shadow between them



- same open tweed short in both photos over a vneck white t-shirt



To me it looks like Oswald is standing on the grond floor doorway as Kennedy goes by, not in the 6th floor window.

Quite a contrast to what ABC is saying is "irrefutable" proof!

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2003/10/27/entertainment1555EST0649.DTL

Have fun debunking this one!

[pruner]

1. the position of his body looks the same too

:)

[TruthIsAll]

2. Oswald was innocent, but that is BILLY LOVELADY

Was Lee Oswald Standing in the Depository Doorway?
... William Shelley (6H328, CE 1381 pp. 84), Sarah Stanton (CE 1381 pp. 89), Wesley Frazier (2H233-4, 22H 647), Billy Lovelady (6H338-9, CE 1381 pp. ...
mcadams.posc.mu.edu/oswald_doorway.htm - 13k - Oct 27, 2003 - Cached -

[Must_B_Free]

6. Lovelady

To me Lovelady has a longer head and a much wider more prominent bottom jaw.

Oswald has the less prominent narrowing chin as does the fellow in the doorway.

[Minstrel Boy]

27. But Lovelady was dressed much differently that day:

Lovelady had worn a red and white vertically striped shirt on the day of the assassination. The man in the doorway's shirt in not striped and is open in front, exposing the tee shirt underneath.

In color films taken from another angle, the color of the shirt worn by the man in the doorway was revealed to be orange-brown. When Oswald was arrested, he was wearing the identical shirt- an orange-brown tweed with missing buttons and tee-shirt underneath.

Other films taken on November 22, 1963 revealed that Lovelady was in fact wearing a red and blue plaid shirt.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/JFK/postphotos.html

I see you cite McAdams, but I think his motivation is extremely suspect (http://www.geocities.com/justicewell/faq.htm).

[Media_Lies_Daily]

32. McAdams is TOTALLY suspect in regards to his "motivation"...

...he's nothing but a major Warren Commission shill taking ideas from others so that he can teach his classes at Marquette University.

John C. McAdams
<http://www.marquette.edu/polisci/McAdams.htm>

[Nederland]

38. Jesus Christ

Does the fact that Billy Lovelady said it was him in the photo matter at all to you? Oh, never mind, I know what you will say: he was in on it too!.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

39. I don't guess you've ever heard of...

..."police intimidation" have you?

Read the history of the witnesses to the JFK assassination and see how many either changed their eyewitness testimony or had it changed for them in the final Warren Commission Report.

You don't have to be part of a conspiracy to end up playing a part in one.

[onehandle]

3. Overall facial structure is different...

Hairline rises up on the left and right, true, but Oswalds comes down more in the center.

Another conspiracy theory, for the sake of having another.

[Must_B_Free]

12. measure

center of eyes to bottom of chin on Lovelady -

Now make the same measurement for Oswald and the doorway fellow.

Also, the eyes are too far apart for the doorway man to be Lovelady

Hairline in 1st photo - hair is tousled. Look in handcuffs photo to see it combed as in the doorway.

[Terwilliger]

4. conclusion of the poster aside....these people were not looking up

they were looking low!

Why are so many faces blacked out?

[maggrwaggr]

5. could easily be a cut and paste job

especially since the guy's in a doorway against a black background. Would be pretty easy to fake this.

Can't trust photos one bit.

[Merlin]

7. This photo genuine beyond any question.

It's one of the photos taken from cameras confiscated by the secret service from those in the crowd just after the assassination.

[JewelDigger]

9. Geez, I'm SHOCKED to see YOU posting this!

Considering that earlier today you were saying:

'Geez, folks, not EVERYTHING is a conspiracy'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=598799#599476

You DO believe that there's truth to be found behind 'conspiracy theories'! And, in the case of the earlier thread that I just cite, you seemed to miss the point that it wouldn't be a conspiracy, it would just be 'business'.

[maggrwaggr]

15. I think you sorta miss the point

the conspiracy would be that the picture is genuine. That Oswald was just hanging out in a conveniently black doorway right behind the motorcade.

My point is that this picture could easily be a fake, which would be anti-conspiracy-theory.

I'm not necessarily against conspiracy theories, but I am against stupidity and paranoia.

Suggesting the firemen in Southern California were deliberately letting "poor" neighborhoods burn, with absolutely no evidence to back it up other than pure suspicion, struck me as really stupid and insulting.

However as far as the Kennedy assassination, who the hell knows? Personally I feel it was a mob hit.

The mob helped Kennedy get elected, then he sicced his brother on them. They felt betrayed, and WHACK. Jack Ruby then took care of Oswald so he couldn't tell the truth. Case closed. Jack Ruby seems like your basic mob-connected kind of guy to me.

I feel this is an extremely strong motive that can't be overlooked.

Somebody else posted a picture that supposedly showed an equally out of focus George Bush sr. standing against a building. Again, it's fun to speculate on this stuff, but a picture such as this isn't exactly evidence. It's like that face on Mars.

[Must_B_Free]

18. I doubt the picture is fake

Billy Lovelady testifies that he was standing in the doorway at that time. So it is apparent that the photo was something to be "dealt with".

[Mechatanketra]

21. In re: Mob Hit

Does anyone else find it funny that suggesting the Mafia had anything to do with the JFK assassination is typically lumped with "crazy conspiracy theories"? I mean, because it's so implausible that the Mafia would (gasp) kill people who got on their crap list. Unheard of, I'm sure.

[RapidCreek]

28. To me the mob theory is silly.

Why? Because the Kennedys have enough power, influence and money to kill every mobster from here to Sicily....and old man Kennedy was a bad enough SOB to do just that. The mafia is not stupid...they pick thier battles carefully and would avoid giving those with the power to crush them a solid reason to do so. Not to mention the fact...that such a "hit" would gain the mafia MUCH disfavor with the Catholic Church....something they would avoid like the plague. Just my opinion of course.

RC

[WoodrowFan]

23. I think Oswald did it, but

the Mob theory is the only conspiracy theory that ever held any water for me.

BTW, eyewitnesses saw Oswald in the upstairs window WITH the gun.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

34. You better check those "witnesses" again using something more...

...reliable than the Warren Commission Report.

And since the "mob theory" holds water for you, maybe you can explain how the Warren Commission was established to complete the cover-up.

[Rich Hunt]

41. there isn't one "mafia"

There are and were many "organizations" in the US.

Personally, I think it's entirely plausible that only one branch of "the mafia" had a hand in it.

The whole Trafficante angle is pretty interesting.

[Solomon]

77. The only part the mob played was to get rid of Oswald so there wouldn't

be a trial. I don't believe for one minute that the mob killed Kennedy. The shooting just doesn't fit their MO. I've never heard of a mob hit where a long ranged rifle was used like that. Now Ruby, on the other hand, did a mob hit: up close and personal.

I don't see the issue any more. Anyone seeing the Zapruda film can clearly see that Kennedy was struck from the front. Get the Zapruda film on DVD and prepare to be chilled everytime you look at it.

[ProfessorGAC]

91. Ummmmmm!

Excuse me but ever heard of an ignition wired car bomb? The mob has been using this technique since the 1920's. That's not exactly an up close and personal hit.

Bugsy Siegel was shot from somewhere in Virginia's backyard, not up close and personal.

There is no form of hit that is beyond the mob's tool set.
The Professor

[Asak]

17. Ummm...flawed logic anyone?

Saying "not EVERYTHING is a conspiracy", is not the same as saying "NOTHING is a conspiracy". :eyes:

[maveric]

55. Like this one?

http://www.noveltynet.org/content/paranormal/www.parascope.com/nexus/oswaldo/oswald05.htm

[jobycom]

8. Not kidding, it looks like my grandfather!

My grandfather was an anarchist nutcase. He was also a racist to the core. I remember him screaming at the television in Mississippi during bussing that someone should blow up the busses and kill all the... You know the word.

Anyway, he lived about two blocks from Oswald in New Orleans just before the assasination, and there were several Cubans who hung around his bicycle shop, according to my mother. She dated one for a while, and was almost engaged to him. She once teasingly told him she wanted a car for her birthday, so on her birthday he made her close her eyes and took her out to the curb outside their house, and when she opened her eyes, there was a car! It was about an inch long, of course.

Anyway, he broke off their relationship to return to Cuba to fight for Castro during the Revolution (obviously some time before the JFK assassination).

My grandfather, though, hated all politicians, and always said "If they are honest when they get elected, they are corrupt by the time they leave." In Louisiana, that was probably true, and a lot of people said that, but he really had a hatred of politicians, and yet an interest in it, and I know he hated Kennedy.

And it looks like him, in the blurry photo. He was often compared to Henry Fonda, too, and you can sort of see the resemblance. Freaky.

Nah, I don't think my grandfather killed Kennedy, nor so I think anyone other than Oswald shot him, but every detail I gave above is 100% true.

[Merlin]

10. Keep in mind that Robert MacNeil ran into Oswald seconds after the shots.

Remember Robert MacNeil of the PBS MacNeil/Lehrer Report?

DALLAS TIMES HERALD
Nov. 20, 1983, Special Section, pp. 2-3
THE DAY JOHN KENNEDY DIED
by Bryan Woolley, Staff Writer

...Indeed, only a minute after the fatal shot
was fired, Marrion Baker, a Dallas motorcycle officer, had
pointed his pistol at Lee Harvey Oswald. Baker had been riding by
the Texas School Book Depository when the killing occurred, and
he jumped off his motorcycle and dashed inside with Roy Truly,
the building's superintendent. They encountered Oswald in the
second-floor lunchroom. Baker drew his gun. "Do you know this
man?" he asked Truly. "Does he work here?" Truly said he did, and
Baker let him go. A minute later, Oswald walked out the front
door of the depository, where he encountered NBC reporter Robert
MacNeil, who was looking for a phone. Oswald told him he could
find one inside. Five minutes later, police sealed off the door.
...

<more>

http://www.textfiles.com/conspiracy/art-06.txt


There remains some doubt about whether it was Oswald who spoke to MacNeil. But it is absolute, indisputable fact that Baker and Truly saw Oswald on the 2nd floor in the lunchroom, unruffled and sipping a coke less than 3 minutes after the shots were fired.

Rather peculiar that a guy who had just shot a President would go have a coke. Also a bit of a feat since the shots supposedly came from the 5th floor, all the way on the other side of this rather large building, and he had time to hide the rifle under a stack of books dozens of feet from the "sniper's perch", then race down the stairs or via the freight elevator, to the second floor lunchroom, pop a quarter in the machine, flip the cap, sit down and start drinking...

[jobycom]

36. I don't know, I love Coke, myself

If I were celebrating a crime I had just pulled off, I might pop a top. I don't drink alcohol, so why not?

And why did they pull a gun on Oswald? Maybe he looked a bit suspicious? Especially if, as everyone claims, everyone was claiming the shots came from the grassy knoll area, why would a cop be searching the SBD, why would he think Oswald looked suspicious, why would he draw a gun on him?

And for that matter, why the Hell would a politically active person-- no one denies that about Oswald-- be sitting in the lunchroom drinking a coke if the president of the US was outside the building? I hated Reagan with a passion, but I went to see him anyway when he came to my home town. What was Oswald up to?

I'll tell you how I red that story. Oswald wasn't interested in seeing Kennedy because he had already seen him down the barrel of a rifle. He shot him, he went downstairs after stuffing his cheap-ass disposable and supposedly untrackable rifle between some boxes. He grabbed a coke to look nonchalant. But a cop saw him and thought "everyone else is running around in a frenzy, and this man is trying to look relaxed drinking a coke. What's up?"

It's a shame he didn't question Oswald further. Might have saved Officer Tippet's life. Oh yeah, Tippet was killed by the real assassin, who just happened to be in the same area as Oswald after the assassination outside a theater across town. Lucky him that Oswald had a pistol and tried to draw it on the cops, thus incriminating himself, otherwise the real assassin might have been caught, I guess.

[FDRrocks]

11. VRWC

I have no doubt in my mind.

[birdman]

13. Bert M, longtime BFEE hitman was along motorcade route

[Must_B_Free]

14. Are you suggesting he was photoshopped in there?

?

[birdman]

20. Of course not

It's a known fact that getting framed for a Presidential
assassination can cause the regrowth of hair in the front
of the scalp, sometimes within a matter of hours.

Better than Rogaine.

[wtmusic]

16. LOL

Waitaminute, now this Bert thing is starting to make sense!!
Have fun debunking THIS one!!

[Must_B_Free]

19. Isn't that Dubya* standing on Ernie's left?

?

[aeon flux]

22. If it was a mob hit,

why didn't the Warren Commission just say so?
Why doesn't ABC just say so?

Could have saved everyone a lot of trouble, right?

[Michael Harrington]

24. Just a minor point.

There were a lot of guys in 1963 who had that build and haircut, including my Dad, who loathed Kennedy.

[rasputin1952]

25. There is one thing I am sure of in the Kennedy Asassination...

Oswald didn't do it.

Besides the physical evidence, there is a telling peice of film.

When Oswald was brought out for the first time for a press hearing, he looks roughed up, and had already been informed that he was the prime suspect for the Tippett murder. He seemed to take this in stride. But when one of the reporters askied him about the Kennedy shooting, he was visibly shocked for a second. He then regained his composure, and said, "I know nothing of that".

Oswald had a Top Secret clearance when he was in the USMC, and he was of above intelligence, not the buffoon the Warren Commission tried to make him out to be. He also was trained by the CIA, and there is an excellent possibility that the trip to the USSR was contrived. Just read how quickly he got back tot he US after he had given up his citizenship, complete with Soviet born wife!

In any case, I hold that Oswald was the "patsy"he said he was.

One other thing.....it is incredible, that just after the president was shot, and a HUGE portion of the Dallas police force converged on the theater where a ticket taker said someone entered without paying for the ticket! You'd think they would have had something better to do!

:kick:

[alfredo]

57. I remember a photo of

Oswald, his wife and some greeters as he arrived from Russia. The story was about how he had lost faith in the Russian revolution, and had returned home. It was funny that that photo from my local paper stuck in my head. It wasn't a year later that he got mixed up in that awful day.

[baldguy]

26. That's my Uncle Bob!

Look at him! Average build, average height, average hair, average shirt, white tee. He looked the same in 1963 as he does today.

Along with 20 million other guys.

[ShaneGR]

29. Sorry, but I'm not seeing anything in these photos that proves anything

Too blurry, hell, that could be me!

And the SS officer grinning? Pretty simple, he doesn't know anyones shooting yet.

[MrPrax]

30. Best Proof something NOT right?

If you look at how world leaders get assassinated--few get shot from long distance snipers.
In fact, few people get murdered by long -distance snipers...
Save the DC killings last year, it doesn't seem to be a prefered 'killing' method...sure there was Whitman, but he was nuts and wasn't hiding.
Most leaders have their planes blow up or like Palme or Reagan, a guy runs up with handgun at shortrange...

That part always disturbs me...why didn't Oswald just run up to the limo like say the guys that ran at Sadat's review stand or Ghandi or the other Ghandi or etc etc...or toss a bomb.

That makes it unusual, I think.

[rasputin1952]

33. Let's recall that the House Commitee on Assassinations...

declared that there was 'most likely' more that one assassin.

Naturally, this setsd the stage for conspiracy.

Personally, I think that there was a "triangulation of fire", this would account for the # of shots, (most likely 5, possibly 6).

The TSBD: the 'Grassy Knoll', (or, most likely, the drainage sewer just below where Kennedy took the head shot); and one of the builings from behind the motorcade, (most likely from a window or the roof of the bldg next to the jail).

The triangualtiopn of fire, would assure the conspirators a hit, and most likely a fatality, which the head shot assured. Judging by the way the right posterior part of the skull flew off, that final shot was assuredly from the front right.

The few honest witnesses that came out immediately after the shooting, even given the fact the were in shock, had indelibly imprinted in their minds that there was at least one shot from the right front.

BTW: Tippet was killed by the firing of a semi-automatic pistol, not the revolver that Oswald was picked up with. I have yet to see a revolver that ejects shell casings, like the ones found at the scene of the Tippet murder; and of different calibers!

[Minstrel Boy]

35. Hysterically, the New York Times, after the HSCA found

that there had been more than one shooter and a "probable" conspiracy, said no, it could have been a coincidence: two assassins might have independently chosen that exact place and time to kill Kennedy. :crazy:

Well, that's the wackiest coincidence theory I've ever heard. Any more evidence needed that Operation Mockingbird's alive and well, and CIA has assets highly-placed in American media?

[rasputin1952]

37. The biggest problem with the Kennedy Assassination...

is that the story has become so convoluted over the years, that it is virtually impossible to find facts anymore.

Ther e are telling things though. Some of them out side of the TSBD & Oswald.

Jack Ruby, was immediately artreted after shooting Oswald in the parking garage. He was taken upstairs and put in a cell. Once there, the interogating officer, offered him a smoke, which Ruby took. Ruby was visibly shaken and a look of terror was over him. Once Oswald was pronounced dead, and the officer returned to the cell to inform Ruby, "looks like you'll get the chair Jack"; and offered Ruby another smoke. Ruby looked visibly relieved, and said he didn't smoke!

That may not seem like much to many, but it is very telling. I am sure that Ruby was fearful for his family, and only the death of Oswald would release him from that fear. The idea that he did it to keep Jackie from going to court to testify was ludicrous.

Later, when Ford and Earl Warren went to Dallas to talk to Ruby, Warren could have had Ruby transferred to DC, (or anywhere else for that matter), but refused. thereby cutting a link top possible further investigation.

There are a thousand little details, that when added up really push towards conspiracy, and those are what drive the Kennedy Assassination into the realm of smoke and mirrors. I was always surprised that Jackie never came out and spoke of what she knew. After all, she was closest, and saw everything.

:kick:

[Matilda]

108. Yes, I think Ruby was under order to hit Oswald.

He certainly had all the connections, and I'm sure plenty of people
had enough to blackmail or threaten him with. I think that at least
some of the Dallas Police Force were in on it too - it was awfully
easy for Ruby to get to Oswald. Given the hysteria and confusion of
those days, Oswald shouldn't have been taken out of the police
station in view of the public, I always thought that was strange,
even before the conspiracy theories started up.

Jackie Kennedy testified to the Warren Commission that her mind was
completely blank immediately after the shooting, and that's certainly
possible. And as it was happening, all her attention was on the
President, she probably was hardly aware of what else was happening
around her. She was probably operating on automatic pilot for a
while.

[MrPrax]

49. Had to be more than one...

and YUP that's a conspiracy...
I mean most people will say, 'oh conspiracy theory'...I always point out there is no conspiracy in say a 'group of company directors plotting to raise their market share and work diligently to that end'...goes on everyday and done largely in secret so competitiors don't get wind of their plans.
People who come from that level of corporate planning are already hard-wired to conspiracy...
to me it has always been a matter as:
1) Oswald was definitely higher up the feeding chain that they made him out to be (kinda like David Kelly--just a scientic type bullshit)
2) If he was a nutbar, at that time he could have gone for glory and done uniequivably
3) the Zapruder film--long surpressed, but kinda obvious he is shot from the front
4) going by the warren commission, the basic ballistics never made sense--there were a bunch of bullets for chrissakes from many different angles
etc etc
To me the little details of who and when, which department, the general pattern of coverup, can in all likliehood be explained by several gov't agencies pulling up the files on Oswald and collectively saying...'Oh Shit'
'He worked for us at one time'...hurry, scrub, deny, scrub again, obsfucate, work the shredder...etc etc...
Hell if I were in charge of the FBI (he was an informant) I would be whitewashing...if I were the CIA...I would be burning his intelligence records, if I were immigration...I would be 're-spinning' his Russian holiday, etc etc...
The dude was a spook...

[Ouabache]

40. Correct Mr. Prax and...

Not only did OSwald 'not go to' Kennedy. Kennedy drove right "to" and right 'past' a place Oswald had only got a job several weeks before.

Oswald was 'placed' and so was the President.

[9215]

43. And also placed so he could get a clean

headshot at Kennedy. I've heard that Kennedy's parade route was changed soon before he got to Dallas, but I'm not sure of this.

Anybody know anything about the parade route change.

[rasputin1952]

46. The original motorcade route wat to go through the 4 way...

and straight down to the overpass'. This was changed to make the Right, then the Left, which brought him to the TSBD.

There are several other things involved here too. Many of those that were in the 'triangle', ran from one street to the next, they didn't know about the change. One individual standing in the center of the overpass, was hit by flying concrete, most likely from a miss that hit the supporting stucture of the overpass.

There were windows open in the TSBD, a serious no-no for the SS, they would have never allowed that under normal circumstances.

There was a deaf mute on the RR overpass, that saw two men after the final shot, and he tried to tell the cops what he had seen, but being a deaf mute, he was written off immediately.

The best places for the head shot were:

1. the fence on the grassy knoll

2. a storm drain, that would have allowed perfect cover, and escape behind the RR overpass.

As an aside, one of the worst places for am ambush would have been from the rear while the target was moving away. It would have made much more sense to shoot while the target was coming down Houston St, if the TSBD was the infamous 'snipers nest'.

:kick:

[9215]

47. Thanks, Do you know how long before the

motorcade was set to get moving that the route was changed?


It must have been announced so people could be in the right place to see it.

[rasputin1952]

48. The original route was posted about a week before the visit...

the changes were posted the day before. But many people, from what I understand, were not informed of the change. After the motorcade made the Right onto Houston, many observers ran across the triangle to see the president again. This is where Mary Mooreman took her picture Jackie going over the trunk after JFK's skull.

There were a few other photographers there as well, but some of those cameras were taken by "G-Men", presumably Secret Service. But the SS says they had no one on the ground in Dealy Plaza, everyone was riding. There is a great question of just who these "G-Men" were, they had wallets with some kind of badges, and they moved with authority.

The first motorcyle cop that hit the ground was the one that went up to the fence at the grassy knoll. It was less than a minute later that the TSBD was entered. The officer in the TSBD had to find the manager, (he was close by), and then found Oswald drinking his coke.
For me to believe that Oswald squeezed off those rounds, under severe duress, with a Manlicher-Carcano, then hide the rifle, make it downstairs without breaking a sweat, and being cool as a cucumber after assassinating the president, pretty well stretches my idea of credibilty. Then, go home, pick up a revolver, kill Tippet and go into a theater without paying for a ticket, is absurd. If Oswald was cool enough to drink a coke, how would he fail to buy a ticket?

The theater was where he was to meet a contract, if anything went down. Instead, a fistfull of Dallas' finest show up after an assassination, to tkae Oswald into custody. Seems to me, one officer might have been dispatched to find a theater sneak in; but a bunch stretches my belief in the Dallas PD as being that serious about investigating the assassination.

Basically, the route is what set Kennedy up. The SS would never have allowed that if normal procedures were followed. There was plenty of room on the other side of the Plaza for spectators, and adding two turns, one being more that 90 degrees, is really bad planning. Especially considering that Dallas was considered one of the WORST places for LKennedy to be, a regular hotbed of RW mania at that time.

:kick:

[9215]

52. It may be possible to prove the impossibility of Oswald doing the deed

without it being a conspiracy.

Do you know if the change in route affected the route as it went through Dealey Plaza? In other words was the original route set to go somewhere other than Dealey Plaza?

If yes, and the change in the route was made after Oswald set the works in motion, by leaving the house at a certain time with the gun, etc. then he was setting up to kill Kennedy in a place where Kennedy was not suppose to be! OR the final route was known by Oswald all along meaning he was part of an inside operation--conspiracy,

on edit: or a patsy.

Either way if Oswalds actions were set in motion before the public was made aware of the route change and that route change affected the presence of Kennedy at Dealey Plaza then Oswald was in a conspiracy, or he was an unknowing patsy as he claimed.

What I need to know is whether the route change had an effect on the motorcade going through Dealey Plaza and what date and time "officially" Oswald was said to have left his house with the gun. I thought he left the house with the rifle disguised as curtain rods the day of or the day before the assasination, but I'm not sure.

This is getting interesting.

Thanks.

[rasputin1952]

56. OK...I don't have a map handy of Dealy Plaza...

but here is a "birds eye description'.

Looking from above, the Plaza has a basically triangular shape. Houston Street is at the top, the motorcade turned Right onto Houston, instead of going straight. (This would be to the Left if your looking down). At 1 block, on Elm, they took a left which is about a 110 degree turn, forming the left side of the triangle.

The TSBD is on the upper lefthand corner, the grassy knoll is below that with a group of columns, then a concrete barricade where Zapruder stood, with the fence behind him.

I will find the map, and post it in the near future, probably tonight, and you can compare the original route, and the amended route. The amended route, took the motorcade right in freont of the TSBD, then down to the fence, and storm drain; it finally meets up with the original street and goes under the overpass.I've never been to Dealy Plaza, but I intend to go there someday. What I have found out is that it is far smaller than it looks in the pictures. A shot COULD have come from the depositiry easily, but not three in the few seconds Oswald supposedly had. No other marksman was able to duplicate that feat with any accuracy.

Then there is the p
Specter has always held that the 'pristine bullet' was the core of the Warren Report. It was found on a stretcher at Parkland Hospital.

:kick:

[rasputin1952]

59. Here is a view of Dealy Plaza...

The lower street is the original route, the Right is Houston Street, and the upper is Elm St.

Where the two converge, just out of the shot is the RR overpass. Kennedy took the fatal head shot just after the lightpole that is visible just before the trees in front of the parking lot. That is where the fence was.

Oswald allegedly took the shots from the 2nd window from the top of the building at the far right. (the bldg in the center is the TSBD, second window down from the upper right corner, just below the white strip, is the "snipers nest").

The motorcade was supposed to go straight, but made a right turn where the bus is, then went to Elm for a left.

Hope this helps!

:kick:

[9215]

63. OHHHHHHHH SHEEET!! The Warren Commission is WRONG!!!!

I got the map of the original route and the "last minute" changed route.

Here is Garrison's take on motorcade route: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/route.htm

Problems. what does "last minute" mean.

It probably means that day at least.

Based on the beleif that this change came after Oswald had set up at the TSBD then the Warren Commission is wrong.

The map shows that Oswald, knowing the original, route set up to shoot Kennedy from an impossible distance. Sharpshooters were unable to duplicate Oswalds feat as it allegedly happened. THE NEAREST DISTANCE THE MOTORACADE WOULD HAVE COME ON THE ORIGINAL ROUTE IS MUCH FURTHER AWAY!! There is no way that the Warren Commission report is correct. Oswald either knew the final route well beforehand or he was simply unaware of the whole operation. Those are the only two possibilities. This establishes the Kennedy Assasination as a conspiracy. Oswald could not have known that Kennedy was coming near enough to the TSBD unless he was tipped off, because the orginal route was no where near the depository. He set himself up in a place that was not near enough to the original route to get a shot--A PLACE WHERE KENNEDY WAS NOT, ACCORDING TO THE ORIGINAL ROUTE, SUPPOSE TO BE!!

If you can pull up that image from my link I'd appreciate it. For some reason I cannot.

On edit: Note: all of this depends on the change in the route being made after Oswald began to set up as in getting gun into building, etc.

[rasputin1952]

64. Hope this map takes...

There you go!

As and addeddum, where the arrow points for "revised route", there is some speculation that a shot camr from that building. But that is mere speculation. My take is, the TSBD, the large bld I just mentioned, and either the fence at the Grassy Knoll, or the drainage sewer were the points for triangulation.

Like evceryone else, I realize this situation has become so convoluted it is beyond any rational thinking, but that's as good a guess as I can make.

:kick:

[9215]

65. Thanks, if that map is to scale

which seems about right from other pictures the closest shot Oswald would have had on Kennedy was about 20% further than the one he allegedly took and it would have been a snapshot as Kennedy came across Elm street continuing on main. My main point is that Oswald set up in a place not feasible to hit Kennedy based on the original route.

I need to find out if this route change happened after Oswald allegedly left his apartment with the gun. That is crucial. Garrison seems to think it was "last minute", but I haven't read the Warren Commission report on this part.

[rasputin1952]

71. The route waas changed at least a day before ...

but there seems to be little conjecture as to exactly when, why or who authorized the change, before it was given to the press.

In any case, it seems remarkable that the addition of a block and two turs, one a hairpin, would have been added, without some serious arguments in the SS and JFK's staff. If the motorcade would have continued down Main, this subject woud be moot.

However, if there was a triangulation of fire, it would have had to have been co-ordinated quite some time before the actual motorcade route was finalized.

We have Oswald leaving that AM with 'curtain rods', so if the rifle was in that bundle, he had to know of the change. He would not have known about the change, if it was 'last minute', as Garrison claimed, (unless he had inside knowledge, which is highly suspect; it would take quite some time to get that information to him).

This is why this situation is so convoluted, there are so many variables, simply because the initial investigation was botched terribl. I do believe, that if the Dallas PD had done an intensive investigation, the results would have been different. Just the fact that the autopsy was done in DC makes the whole thing suspect.

Then you have the suspicious deaths of many of the 'key' players. Ruby for instance, claimeed to his dying day, that he knew more than he would tell in Dallas. Why was this lead never taken seriously? Ruby had extensive links to all kinds of underworld figures.

One of the officers in the initial investigation, who made it a point to keep looking, was sent on a routine arrest warrant, by himself, no back up, and was shot after he entered the suspects room, a little out of normal procedures. The suspect deaths, right down to Kitty Carlisle who died suspiciously after talking to Ruby, sometimes stretch the credibility of 'odds'.

Until the records are open, this will continue to be a contentious subject, and even then....there may be no realistic answers.

:kick:

[9215]

95. Seems like Garrison may have made a mistake here

Google: "Warren Commission+Elm+motorcade

I lost the link I read last night, but the Warren Commission's opening statement says that the change in the route was made a few days prior to Nov. 22.

[rasputin1952]

102. I think that Garrison was moving in the right direction...

but at some point, he started to get off track. This seems to happen to a lot of people that get involved in the JFK situation.

I have had to eat crow a number of times, as others have showen me that some things were a little more convoluted than I first thought. Slowly but surely though, it comes down to a picture of coverup, there are simply far too many unanswered questions.

:kick:

[Terwilliger]

31. kick for a fascinating picture!!

[KFC]

42. Interesting

But kind of like the gynecologist who went to the eye doctor because things were looking a little fuzzy.

[9215]

44. What about the second group of pictures of

the people in the cars.

The one on the left is suppose to be of somebody aiming a rifle inside the car.

Anybody see anything wrong with this picture? :eyes:

[ElementaryPenguin]

45. Yes.

Beyond any reasonable doubt!

[Corgigal]

50. Robert Kennedy

always thought it was a Mob hit. Didn't Tropicanti admit that he had a hand to play in it? Still think Oswald did some shooting that day but probably not the lone gunman.

My husband also thinks shots came from the grassy knoll. He said if you see how witness respond right after Kennedy is shot several men run towards the wall of the knoll where the women back up the other way. Hubby, cop homicide experience, said actually that is normal.
Men will run towards the sound of the shot, especially when they figured out something bad happened to the President.

Thanks for sharing these photos. The clothing of the men in the doorway and Oswald, where most men are wearing suits, is a big puzzle to me.

[Adjoran]

51. Kennedy was shot from the rear.

The exit wounds prove that. The bullets were travelling at sharp downward angle.

To get past this, the assassin(s) would have to repeal the laws of physics.

UNLESS - a highly advanced race of space aliens did it . . .

[Minstrel Boy]

54. The wounds seen at Parkland

were not the wounds reported at Bethesda Naval Hospital. Read Trauma Room One by Parkland's resident surgeon that day, Dr Charles Crenshaw.

The law obligated Parkland doctors to perform the autopsy, but the Secret Service prevented them at gunpoint and removed the body. Kennedy's body arrived at Bethesda in a different casket than the one in which it had left Dallas. (Read Best Evidence.) The Bethesda autopsy was a crude farce (Air Force General Curtis LeMay, a Kennedy foe, sat in the bleachers smoking a cigar, smiling) and Dr James Humes burned his original draft of autopsy report.

[dflprincess]

93. And none of the doctors present at the autopsy at Bethesda

were forensic pathologists. Had Oswald ever gone to trial a good defense attorney would have been able to rip the Bethesda doctors apart.

[Terwilliger]

61. why did the Zapruder film show...

Kennedy's head exploding forward in a shot from behind?

[rasputin1952]

62. It didn't...

If the bullet used was an explosive projectile, it would explode on impat. The majority of skull fragmnets, especiallythe right occipital lobe that that Jackie was trying to recover off the trunk, would imply that the shot came from the right front, probably hitting very close to the right temple, going up! This would be a shot from the storm sewer. A perfect place for a sniper to hide.

:kick:

[Silverhair]

69. Because that's the way head shots happen.

When a high powered bullet enters a human body it sets up a shock wave away from the point of entry. The bullet travels faster than the shock wave, like a supersonic plane in the air. In a head shot the bullet then exits the skull, opening up a large hole. The shock wave is still moving brain matter away from the entry point. Shock wave then causes the brain matter to explode out the exit hole. Due to Newton's laws, (equal & opposite reaction)the skull snaps violently away from the ejecting brain matter. It snaps in the direction the bullet came from.
That's what you see on the film. Brain matter sprays forward, head snaps back. Shot was from behind. Takes a high powered bullet to do that.

[rasputin1952]

72. The alleged weapon used by Oswald was a...

6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano, hardly a high powered rifle. It was so despised by the Italian Army during WW II, it was dumped by the thousands. My dad brought one back from the war, and it was quite the piece of crap. It was quite underpowered, and looked like it was made by elves.

:kick:

[Silverhair]

76. The Italian threw all their guns away.

Do you have muzzle velocity statistics on the rifle?

Yes, the Italians did indeed throw them away. That's what you do when you surrender. The Italian Army frequently surrendered in WWII because the soldiers didn't want to fight. Surrendering was their way of fighting Il Duce. Throwing the rifle away didn't have anything to do with the merits of the rifle. It had everything to do with surrendering, or deserting.

[rasputin1952]

79. The rifle in question, the Mannlicher-Carcano...

that Oswald allegedly used, had a muzzle velocity between 2625-2953 fps. But, that is if you are using conventional, over the counter ammunition. There is a wide variety of muzzle velocities if the ammunition is self loaded, or tampered with, (ie, the bullet is 'dum-dummed', by cutting off some of the tip, or cutting a cross into it).

Also, it is not he muzzle velocity that really counts, it is the velocity that the missle strikes it target that makes or breaks the case. This would mostlikely have been in the 1500-2200 fps range. Level of attack, humidity, air pressure at the time of firing, all come into play. If this was commercially graded ammunition, one could expect the muzzle velocity to be within the parameters stated above. However, if the ammunition was tampered with, taht could change dramatically.

Once again, what was the velocity of the projectile when it struck JFK's head? A 6.5 mm round, from that Mannlicher-Carcano, would have been hard pressed to pass through JFK, then pass through Connally and shatter his wrist. That bullet, later being found on the gurney almost intact, leaves much to the imagination. Especially considering that the 'prisine bullet supposedly hleft some of its mass in Connally's wrist, and therefore had to actually add to its mass to make up for what was lost; (a miracle bullet indeed). The possibility of all of these things coming together is there, but the probability is in the same statistical model of me being struck by lightning 3 times within 15 minutes, while being attacked by sharks, and surviving.

Bottom line is, unless all of the documentation is made availble, and a serious investigation is begun; there is little chance of ever coming to grips with what really happened that Friday in November.

:kick:

edited: spelling and clarity

[Silverhair]

90. That's fast enough to be high-powered.

I limit my discussion purely to the effect on Kennedy's head. I simply don't want to get into all the rest of it. If you start with a 2.6K fps, you aren't going to lose 1/3 of your muzzle velocity in 50 meters. So it would have hit Kennedy with almost all of the original muzzle velocity.

I make no statement on the rest of it. My statement is that Kennedy's head in the film is consistent with a high-powered rifle bullet in the back of the head and exiting in the front. 2,600 fps if fast enough to be high power. My U.S. Army M-14 7.62 NATO had a muzzle velocity in the 2,700 fps range. Same territory.

[rasputin1952]

100. But you have to l;ook at the rest of the facts...

otherwise you can not come to a conclusion that merits credibility.

There is a lot to ballistics, and very little of it has to do with lock, losd and pull the trigger. 7.62 NATO, (.30 Cal, US) is radically different from the projectile that allegedly struck JFK.

All that I stated above, in the previous post is just as involved in the actual shooting, as is the aiming of the shooter. The shooter must take into account many factors, some of them are worked out long befroe on a target range, and become second nature. No one I know of has consistently shot bulleyes the first time firing a weapon. It takes time to work the 'quirks' out of each individual firearm. I contend that judging by Oswalds previous marksmanship scores, with an M-1 in the USMC, (a weapon infinately better than the Mannlicher-Carcano), I would question his ability to hit a target moving away from him, not to mention the head turning at inopportune times.

This all speculation of course, and I freely admit that it is open to discussion. But it seems to me, that the theory of Oswald taking those shots, and hitting the target consistently, is a bit more than my speculative mind can accept. We're talking 1 miss, 1 hit in the neck and the infamous head shot, if we are to accept the Warren Commissions report at face value. I can't do that at this point; there are simply too many inconsistencies. Until there are more facts brought out by the gov't, or a photo that shows Oswald popping off a few, I find it open to discussion.

:kick:

[rasputin1952]

101. But you have to look at the rest of the facts...

otherwise you can not come to a conclusion that merits credibility.

There is a lot to ballistics, and very little of it has to do with lock, losd and pull the trigger. 7.62 NATO, (.30 Cal, US) is radically different from the projectile that allegedly struck JFK.

All that I stated above, in the previous post is just as involved in the actual shooting, as is the aiming of the shooter. The shooter must take into account many factors, some of them are worked out long befroe on a target range, and become second nature. No one I know of has consistently shot bulleyes the first time firing a weapon. It takes time to work the 'quirks' out of each individual firearm. I contend that judging by Oswalds previous marksmanship scores, with an M-1 in the USMC, (a weapon infinately better than the Mannlicher-Carcano), I would question his ability to hit a target moving away from him, not to mention the head turning at inopportune times.

This all speculation of course, and I freely admit that it is open to discussion. But it seems to me, that the theory of Oswald taking those shots, and hitting the target consistently, is a bit more than my speculative mind can accept. We're talking 1 miss, 1 hit in the neck and the infamous head shot, if we are to accept the Warren Commissions report at face value. I can't do that at this point; there are simply too many inconsistencies. Until there are more facts brought out by the gov't, or a photo that shows Oswald popping off a few, I find it open to discussion.

:kick: :bounce:

[Silverhair]

103. Not a difficult shot.

The original question was why JFK's head moves the way it does in the film. My comment was that it moves consistent with a shot from behind. Most people aren't familiar with what actually happens in a gunshot wound. Too much TV. (Have you ever noticed that guns on TV & in the movies NEVER recoil? And so often car bodies are enough to stop bullets? But that is a different topic.) So the head movement is consistent with a shot from behind the head.

Ballistics is basically muzzle velocity, bullet mass, and bullet shape. 6.5mm is close enough to 7.62mm so that at a range of about 50 meters there is no signifigant difference. At that range velocity & mass will be the determining factors. The other stuff will become insignifigant.

Accuracy. Whe don't know how much he may have pracaticed with the rifle. It wouldn't take much. The Army taught me how to quickly field sight any rifle. He would have got the same instruction. It has been a long time since I have fired a rifle, but I still remember. For a long time after the Army, I was able to pick up a strange rifle, and within 10 shots have it field zeroed. Basic accurate shooting techniques don't change from one rifle to another.
So making that shot with that rifle just isn't hard to do.

JFK was moving directly away. A target that is moving away and is only 50 meeters away does not have to be lead. You don't have to shoot in fromt of the target the way you do a side shot. In other words it is like shooting at a stationary target. Travel time for the bullet would have been about 1/18 of a second. No need to worry about sudden movements, JFK ain't gonna move much in 1/18 of a second. A head shot at 50 meters to anybody that passed USMC marksmanship course is a VERY easy shot, and his rifle had a scope on it.

Timing. Most people mistate the timing. The clock STARTS running on the first shot, (He gets an unknown amount of time to set up the first shot.) then two follow on shots in the required time. Getting of the next shot in under 2 and 1/2 seconds, even with a poor rifle is easy. In fact, I'm surprised he missed a shot, or even needed more than one shot. Buck fever I suppose.

My point is that the shot is far far from difficult, and in fact is an easy easy shot. All the conspiracy theory shots are more difficult, involving handgun shots at a transverse moving target with obstructions. I qualified expert with the .45 auto so I know something about handguns.

With this post I also leave this subject. A conspiracy theory is like a religious faith, a believer will cling to it no matter what. And just as a faith will invent miracles, so the conspiracy theory invents "facts".

[Terwilliger]

106. and when facts dont help your argument, you dismiss them

YA RIGHT!

[rasputin1952]

109. But that is the way it usually goes...

So I like to keep an open mind in these things. Some people have a hard time doing that.

I don't even mind being wrong, I just like to proven wrong befoe I admit it. In this case, i don't really feel that the argument went the other way. Such is life.

:bounce:

[maveric]

111. He grabs his throat, his head jerks back and a flap of skull/brain

is flopping around.
Now you are telling me that that CANT possibly be a shot from the front?
Entrance wounds are smaller than exit wounds, are they not?
Watch the film closely, its obviously a shot to the front blowing out the back of his head.

[karlschneider]

53. Isn't it obvious? Bill Clinton's penis killed Kennedy.

Jesusfuckingchrist, we DUers get enough grief from the nutballs without even them having to refer to the dumb fucking tinfoil shit that emanates from our own forum. I was 22 years old when JFK was shot. I remember it like it was yesterday and I watched every development from there on for years.

And I have YET to hear any rational 'explanation' of why or how any nutball conspiracy could have possibly accomplished anything useful.

Oswald, like McVeigh, was a goddamn nutcase and a damn good shot.

:grr:
:grr:
:grr:

[area51]

58. Lame joke time

Ah, but what about this photo?




Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Must_B_Free]

60. I'm not sure I get it

Is it funny because in the original it's obviously oswald and he's photoshopped in there, or it's obviously not oswald in the original?

I know everyone wants to shrig this one of, but are you shrigging it of because you think it's a fake photo?

Or is it because you think its not oswald?

[Oracle]

66. What kind of bullshit are they trying to feed us and why...

And does it explain why Jack Ruby shot and killed Oswald to silence him after only two days of incarceration…(why was Ruby allowed in the police station.) This is a presidential assassination!! It would of been sealed under almost ALL known circumstance's.
Just coincidence? Three shots in three seconds and at least one shot proven to come from the front…

More CIA bullshit, to validate 9-11 and the corporate media feeds us this complete shit as truth.

Who profited? How many republicans and Texans absolutely hated Kennedy? What gov & military agencies hated him, what money suppliers, what “New World” Global interest would hate peace? FBI, Hoover, who hated the Kennedy's Wow, knock me down, and, it was in right wing Texas for sure…

What kind of bullshit is ABC feeding us and why now? And why was Joe jr., JFK, RFK, and JFk jr. and drunken Chappaquick Ted, all desposed of?

Not hard to figure.

[Silverhair]

74. Some corrections

It wasn't three shots in three seconds. It was a shot and two follow one shots in 5.something seconds. (I don't remember and am not going to look up how many fractions of seconds need to be added to the 5 seconds.) That means the clock started running when the first shot was fired. He then had about 2 and 1/2 seconds to work the bolt, aim and fire, using a scope sighted rifle. His target was a little over 50 yards away and moving directly away from him. That is an EASY shot. In the Army I was able to always hit a head sized target at 100 meters using iron sights. After the target popped up I was always able to get my shot off in less than two seconds. And I wasn't alone. Almost everybody in the company consider the 50 meter & 100 meter targets as easy points.

Texas voted for JFK in 60, and JFK was popular in Texas.

Peace? Kennedy was NOT a pacifist. Bay of Pigs. Cuban Missle crisis. Increased presence in Vietnam. Go anywhere, bear any burden, pay any price in the fight against communism. Remember - he campaigned on a platform of building more nuclear tipped missiles claiming that there was a "missle gap" and that the Soviets had more missles than we did. (They didn't.) That ain't a "peace now" position. Don't get me wrong. I liked JFK, and in 60 I did volunteer work at the local JFK office to help get him elected. But he absolutely was not a pacifist.

[mistertrickster]

98. Thanks for the voice of reason here, Silverhair . . .

Your analysis of how a head can fly backward against the direction of a bullet striking it was spot on. Luis Alvarez, a Nobel Prizewinner in Physics, said the same thing.

A gunsmith and rifle expert named Donahue wrote an interesting book that backs up what you are saying. He was the guy who hit the moving target (representing Kennedy) not twice but three times using a rifle identical to Oswald's when 60 Minutes did a mock-up. He had no problem working the bolt and acquiring the target etc.

[birdman]

105. The "Kennedy the Peacenik" legend arose years after his death

It came about in the late '60s because conspiracists needed
it to link the assassination to government elements that they
wanted to finger. Even a cursory knowledge of the mans career
shows that he was quite hawkish. I liked Kennedy too but it degrades
his memory to turn him into something he wasn't so that fits into
a conspiracy. Almost every statement the man made with regard to foreign policy indicates that he saw his job as fighting communism.

Lyndon Johnson, on the other hand, was a confirmed New Dealer devoted
to using government to both improve peoples lot in life and bind them
to the political organizations that provided the jobs and the programs.
Documents like the Pentagon Papers and the numerous papers he left
show him to be reluctant to commit to the Vietnam quagmire but
fearful that a "loss" of Vietnam would endanger his domestic agenda
as China had harmed Trumans. But for conspiracy purposes he has to be a war monger or weak tool of the generals.

[Minstrel Boy]

107. The lesson Kennedy learned

from the Bay of Pigs was to fire Dulles and to endeavour to scatter the CIA to the winds. The lesson he learned from the missile crisis was that it must never happen again.

The American University speech of June 10 1963 indictates, I think, how far he'd come, and where he hoped to take the country. This, to me, sounds like the broaching of detente:

"What kind of peace do I mean? What kind of peace do we seek? Not a Pax Americana enforced on the world by American weapons of war. Not the peace of the grave or the security of the slave. I am talking about genuine peace, the kind of peace that makes life on earth worth living, the kind that enables men and nations to grow and to hope and to build a better life for their children--not merely peace for Americans but peace for all men and women--not merely peace in our time but peace for all time.

...

"In short, both the United States and its allies, and the Soviet Union and its allies, have a mutually deep interest in a just and genuine peace and in halting the arms race. Agreements to this end are in the interests of the Soviet Union as well as ours--and even the most hostile nations can be relied upon to accept and keep those treaty obligations, and only those treaty obligations, which are in their own interest.

"So, let us not be blind to our differences--but let us also direct attention to our common interests and to the means by which those differences can be resolved. And if we cannot end now our differences, at least we can help make the world safe for diversity. For, in the final analysis, our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this small planet. We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children's future. And we are all mortal.

"Third: Let us reexamine our attitude toward the cold war, remembering that we are not engaged in a debate, seeking to pile up debating points. We are not here distributing blame or pointing the finger of judgment. We must deal with the world as it is, and not as it might have been had the history of the last 18 years been different."
http://www.jfklibrary.org/j061063.htm

[Silverhair]

75. Security was a LOT loser back then.

Hell, in 1966 I got on an airliner carrying a rifle. I asked the stewardess to place it in the pilot's cabin for me. She did. I got it from her when I left the plane. I walked around the airport with it while I was waiting for my next plane. I did two plane changes, so that's four airports that I walked around with that gun in. Nothing happened. No cops came up to me. Nothing.

Security back then was waaaaaaay loser back then than it is now.

Also, JFK was popular with the military. He was using the military and making them look good (Missle crisis.) and funding was increasing.

[Michael Harrington]

67. To buy this as such a huge plot...

You have to buy JFK as the nearly mythical savior figure that post-assasination Liberal haigiography painted him as, which he quite simply was not. Lyndon Johnson threated the status quo more than JFK ever did.

[Oracle]

68. Wrong as usual LBJ a true democatic pig would of

done ANYTHING to assume the presidency, I trust no politician from Texas...LBJ had almost 600,000 troops in Vietnam and wanted more...get fucking real dude! LBJ would do what was asked...by the rulers and that's surely not the presidency.

[Bridget Burke]

70. Well, you have a non-"Liberal" mythic hero

That's Saint Ronnie, who's not even dead yet.

JFK was far from perfect but he had promise. I remember his press conferences--sparring & joking with the reporters who shouted questions--showing intelligence & true wit. (Contrast it with W's performance yesterday.) It's not making him a hero to think that things might have been better if he hadn't died quite so soon.

Seeing a "plot" beyond the Lone Gunman theory is the result of looking at the facts. To many people, the Warren Commission just didn't tell the whole story.

[Minstrel Boy]

73. Since the mid-70s, when the truth

was getting perilously close to the surface, there's been an ongoing character assassination of Kennedy which is almost as ugly as his murder.

[birdman]

80. Let me get this straight

The stories of Kennedy's women and illnesses and
prescription drug use were made up so that the "truth"
about the assassination conspiracy wouldn't come out ?

I think that Monroe woman stole his essence.

[Terwilliger]

82. nope, just like Bill Clinton's foibles weren't made up

they weren't made up, were they?

[birdman]

86. You mean

Willie really wasn't involved with Monica and
he kept his cigars in his humidor ?

[Minstrel Boy]

83. It's been a posthumous assassination

By 1963, after the Bay of Pigs and the Missile Crisis, JFK was hastening detente with the USSR, working towards a rapprochement with Cuba and a withdrawl of all US troops from Vietnam by 1965, regardless of the progress of the war.

By 1968, RFK was further left than that: a comrade-in-arms of Cesar Chavez and Martin Luther King.

Since the mid-70s, the thought of what might have been has been replaced by lurid caricatures of drunken sex maniacs cavorting with gangsters who may have killed Marilyn Monroe. The Kennedys have been unjustly linked to CIA plots to kill Castro which they never authorized and explicitly forbade.

The "debunkers" of the Kennedys, like the McCarthy eulogizer Thomas Reeves, have an agenda. That many American liberals have accepted the defamation of their greatest modern leaders without a murmur is a tragedy.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Minstrel Boy]

87. Yes I was.

And what's preposterous is your suggestion that Johnson was more reluctant about Vietnam than Kennedy. His NSAM 273 reversed Kennedy's initial withdrawl days after taking office.

Here's an anecdote no doubt you're unfamiliar with, from John Judge:

"My mother worked for 25 years in the Personnel Office of the U.S. Army, Deputy Chief of Staff, directly under the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Her job was to project overall national draft figures for five years in advance for the national selective service call, to within one hundred people in accuracy. Before Kennedy's death, she knew from those figures and projections that the Pentagon was planning on troop withdrawal from Vietnam. In late November, she knew Kennedy was pulling out of Vietnam based on her projected figures. I asked her, after she had been retired, when did they tell her that they would escalate in Vietnam? The Pentagon told her in late November of 1963, the Monday following the assassination. She couldn't believe the figures. She took them back to the Joint Chiefs of Staff for query—what must have been the first civilian protest of the war. She said, "This couldn't be right." The Joint Chiefs said to "use those figures!" The figures on November 25, 1963, were that the war would last for ten years, and the casualties would be about 57,000, and "to figure that in."
http://home.pacbell.net/butlerc/Conspiracy/conspiracy.html

[birdman]

89. NSAM 273 didn't represent a significant change in policy

and it was drafted while Kennedy was still alive.
It's possible to admire Kennedy without trying to
make him into something he wasn't. He had a generally
hawkish foreign policy, was a somewhat reluctant supporter of the
civil rights movement and had an olympian love life.

And it strains credulity to think that he would have left Vietnam.


This is a pretty good analysis.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/context1.htm

[Minstrel Boy]

92. "Deep Politics and the Death of JFK"

by Peter Dale Scott has much worthwhile to say about the NSAMs and Kennedy's intentions towards Vietnam.

McAdams, like Posner, is extremely selective in his research, and his work tainted, I think, for presupposing the veracity of the Warren Report.

[9215]

94. Deep Politics

also extensively covered by Linda Minor who really gets into the corporate machinations linking the Bushies to alot of corrupt activities. Her "Yellow Brick Road" Series is incredibly informative.

This is on Zapata and Enron and money laundering. "Yellow Brick Road series". http://www.newsmakingnews.com/lindaminor/lm3,19,02harvardtoenron,pt1.htm

[Minstrel Boy]

97. Scott's book is, I think, extremely important

for establishing the context of the conspiracy: the mob-Intel-industrial-military nexus had been well-established by '63. The network was in place, and the motivation strong.

[9215]

99. Scott and Minor describe what Casolaro

termed the "Octopus". This is the system of interlocking directorates that maintained the status quo by controling, through any means neccessary, the political, economic, social system. Incredible stuff.

[9215]

88. What is with this endless dribble of innuendo from you

You repeatedly insult or call into question the character of people who differ with your take on this. I think you are an intellectual and emotional coward.

[Terwilliger]

81. Kennedy threatened the CIA

and he also had an extremely strong chance of routing the opponent of the next presidential election, and between he and Bobby, could have been in the oval office right through 1976.

I'm sure that there were more than a few people who didn't like that idea at all. I believe George HW Bush was a young Repug and CIA....hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[9215]

110. Dulles was seriously threatened by Kennedy.

and was fired by him. Dulles then, mysteriously got a spot on the Warren Commission and "guided" the Commission toward the lone gunman theory.

3 years ago or so there was an excellent TV documentary on this. Forgot the title.

[Minstrel Boy]

78. Ed Lansdale, and some other interesting photos:

Here are Allen Dulles (CIA Director fired by Kennedy), Gen. Ed Lansdale (Pentagon/CIA, architect of the overthrow of several governments), Gen. Charles P. Cabell (Dep. Director of the CIA, fired by Kennedy, and brother of the mayor of Dallas), General Nathan Twining.



Now, here's a photo of the three "tramps" arrested behind the grassy knoll being marching through Dealey Plaza by two uniformed officers. The three men remain a mystery - no arrest records were made and no names were taken. But note the man walking in the opposite direction.





Here's what Col Fletcher Prouty has to say about this photo:

"What caught my eye right away was the fact that some other person is in the first photo walking in the opposite direction." says Prouty, singling out one particular shot. "Here he is, during one of the most important events in our history, casually walking past two police with guns and the tramps, not even looking at what could've been the killers of the President. This is all within 30 minutes or less after the assassination. It's unbelievable. And note that these tramps have not been handcuffed either, and a civilian is allowed to walk within inches of them."

Then Prouty looked even more closely at the photo. "I was stunned to realize that this unconcerned bystander was none other than my long-time friend and associate Ed Lansdale."

"Right away, since he was there, I just knew that he must be concerned with the cover story. That was his gift. His specialty."

Gen. Edward G. Lansdale was a celebrated CIA man who masterminded various assassination plots for the CIA and was heavily involved in Vietnam. He was CIA, but worked under the cover of an air force colonel. He and Prouty had worked closely together for several years before his resignation ("a paper resignation to comply with his CIA 'cover' assignment" in October 1963. At the time of the assassination, Lansdale was supposed to be visiting his son in San Antonio, but a claim check found in his personal papers places him at a hotel used by the presidential entourage the night before the assassination.

"I personally have no doubt that the photo is of Lansdale," affirms Prouty. "I knew him from 1952 in the Philippines to the time of his death. He was one of my neighbors."

Prouty sent copies of the photos to a friend - another high-ranking Kennedy-era officer who also knew Lansdale.

"The two policemen are carrying shotguns, not rifles," the friend wrote back. "Their caps are different (one a white chinstrap, one black). One has a Dallas Police shoulder patch, one does not, and their caps differ from that of another police officer in photo four. Reasonable conclusion -- they are either reservists or phoneys. And as you know, city cops don't have anything to do with sheriff's offices."

"And as to photo No. 1 - That is a picture of Ed Lansdale! The haircut, the stoop, the twisted left hand, the large class ring. It's Lansdale. What in the world was he doing there? Has anyone asked him?"

Prouty says he wasn't surprised when he realized Lansdale was in Dallas for the assassination -- he was there to make sure nothing went wrong.

"He was there like the orchestra leader, coordinating these things." Prouty says Lansdale "He's a 'producer' and the best one there was."

http://www.prouty.org/

[rasputin1952]

84. Interesting....

the ring looks like a large wedding band to me, but that is besides the point.

If this were a shot of real police officers, they are pretty damn shabby in their work.

First, no officer would allow an unknown individual to walk that close to guarded prisoners.

Second, they wouldf have been handcuffed to each other, considering there are two officers viewed, they would have had 2 sets of handcuffs.

Third, There is NO WAY that the officer in the rear would shoot with a shotgun, if the 3 "tramps" decided to make a break for it, or tried to overpower the lead officer.

The whole scene is surreal, and is open for a whole slew of questions.

At the very least, this should be used as a training opportunity for PD's on how NOT to transfer suspects!

:kick:

[9215]

96. Another oddity

http://www.law.uga.edu/academics/profiles/dwilkes_more/jfk_10oddities.html
In 1963 Secret Service regulations governing escort security for presidential motorcades provided that buildings along the motorcade route had to be inspected whenever the motorcade route was a standard one that had been used in the past. President Kennedy's Dallas motorcade route had been the standard route for motorcades for years; President Franklin D. Roosevelt, for example, had visited Dallas in 1936 and traversed the same route in a motorcade (although in the opposite direction). Nevertheless, on Nov. 22, 1963, when President Kennedy visited Dallas, the Secret Service's own guidelines were violated, and no inspection of the buildings along the motorcade route was made. Source: U. S. House of Representatives, House Select Committee on Assassinations, Investigation of the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy, vol. 11, pp. 525-27 (1979).


What is so strange is the ambiguity here. Kennedy's route was changed and the segment affected by the change is where he was hit. The question I have is whether anywhere else on the route besides Dealy Plaza area was inspected or was the whole route not inspected? If some of the route was inspected and not others, Why?

[rasputin1952]

104. I have not come across anything that would say either way...

However, the night before the motorcade, many of the SS agents were in a strip club, getting pretty rowdy by most accounts. I am sure there were a few hangovers. This is also against policy; but it may explain why some of the buildings were lacking proper security checks.

there is so much that is up for conjecture, it ios incredibly difficult to gte to the center of the situation.

:kick: