MattS from Clark Sphere "can't see anyone other than Dean winning"

[dkf]

http://theclarksphere.com/archives/000359.html#000359

The Disappearing Clark versus the winner Dean

It would be pretty hard to conceive of a campaign that has gone worse than Clark's. Somehow, he retroactively voted for the war, then unvoted for it, told the grassroots they were unimportant then held them up as the key to his candidacy, released his military records revealing that he in fact has superpowers and the ability to see the future to absolutely zero fanfare, revealed himself as unable to rebut smears that are silly with any grace (the praise of Bush for doing a good job in winning the war in Afghanistan being the prime factoid), and got laryngitis. Clark is over seems to be the operative meme on the Kos, with the 40-6 NH poll being the main factoid. Clark is small is basically the factoid here, as the press and blogs basically decided that Clark is smart, has good ideas, and there are several other Senators with those qualities and ground organizations in place that feed the media with better catering. Like with Kerry, Steve Soto, Kerry's biggest blog booster, never said 'I don't support this guy anymore'. He just doesn't talk about Kerry much. Funny. Matthew Yglesias, Brad Delong, Kevin Drum, even Andrew Northrup don't really talk about Clark except in a sort of 'wait-and-see-he's-not-doing-very-well' mode.

I've worked really hard for the Clark movement, and I'm sad to see this meme triumph. But it has. So far, it's the Clark campaign that's considered awful, not Clark himself. His reputation is now at stake, as evidenced by the lack of 'Dean-Clark' ticket advocates in the leftie blogosphere. That was a big meme back in the day.

snip

And so, the Daily Meme can't see anyone other than Dean winning, for he is ahead in the polls, the messaging game, and smacks the memes out of the park. Indeed, Dean's the movement is the message is precisely the delivery part of the message, because it's a transformative idea that people can see and taste. You can call beautiful language 'just rhetoric' if you're cynical enough (and people are), but you can't fake a die-hard group of grandmothers and annoying college students, because it's really really hard to fake social context.

--Wow, pretty strong stuff from another Clark Sphere guy.

[La_Serpiente]

1. If I were Clark

I would fire all my advisors and hire all the Clark bloggers on the internet. After all, that's the source of his power anyway.

[DebJ]

3. Dem debate Sunday night

Clark so completely unimpressed me that I can't recall anything he said.

But Edwards indicated that he needs to read up on the Founding Father's concerns in the Constitutional convention. When he was asked about authoring the Patriot Act, his answer was that Congress gave the administration all of this power because they trusted them to use it legitimately, and the administration betrayed this trust.
I believe Edwards was sincere in his statements, but our Constitution is NOT based on naievete. The single most overwhelming concern of our Founding Fathers was to prevent every opportunity for despotism, for loss of checks and balances in power. But Edwards still doesn't get it. His response was that the WRONG people have all this power now. The FF's would be rolling over and moaning in their graves....NO ONE is EVER to have this kind of power. But the FF's rather thought this was inevitable, as well. I think it was Ben F who said that we would not have a despot until we deserved one. Apathy and lack of information and action reaps its just rewards.

[AP]

7. Falling in line with RW press...

You should get a job with big media, if you don't have one already.

[AP]

18. By the way, here's the Edwards quote:

CAMERON: Senator Edwards, the PATRIOT Act, a piece of legislation that you voted for, a piece of legislation that has been much criticized by virtually everybody on this stage, falls two years old today. There has been a tremendous amount of criticism of John Ashcroft and the Justice Department for its enforcement of that legislation, legislation that you authored. 

Shouldn't it, in fact, be incumbent on those of you who wrote the legislation to take responsibility for it, other than those who are legally responsible for enforcing it?

EDWARDS: Well, I did. 

First of all, I think Carol Moseley Braun and Dennis Kucinich should be heard. And I hope you're going to have questions for them, so I want to stand up for what they are saying.

(APPLAUSE)

Second, on the PATRIOT Act, which I, along with...

(LAUGHTER)

... which I, along with almost the entire United States Senate voted for -- here's the reality of the PATRIOT Act. There are some provisions in the PATRIOT Act, most of which get no attention, which did good things, which updated the law, which allowed us to go after money laundering, which allowed information-sharing, some of the problems that existed before September 11th. 

The problem with the PATRIOT Act and the reason we need to make changes is because it gave entirely too much discretion to an attorney general who does not deserve it. It's that simple.

(APPLAUSE)

And I want to...

CAMERON: But, Senator, wasn't the legislation written by the lawmakers providing that very latitude? Didn't you create that latitude in the legislation that you wrote?

EDWARDS: Yes, and the attorney general of the United States came before us and told us that he would not abuse his discretion. He has abused his discretion. He has consistently abused his discretion. We all know that now. These provisions need to be changed. 

Let's break it down. First of all, I'll admit Edwards should have done a better job of fielding this quesion (especially considering that his research team should have know that this was one of the two or three most oft-repeated empty criticisms of Edwards). It's true that the Patriot Act does have some good provisions, like the one that Edwards actually was responsible for, which is the one that requires hospitals to stockpile certain medicines to treat cetain biological weapons likely to be used by terrorists (if I remember correctly). Had he had the time, he should have stated the exact provisions he thought were worthwhile.

In any event, notice here that Edwards is doing fine answering this question and gets cut off with another question. Cameron wastes his time, then gives him seconds to answer a loaded question -- implying that Edwards is entirely responsible for every element of that bill.

So, Edwards already said there were good things and bad things in the bill. He notes the good things (fair enoug) and before he can embark on the criticism, Cameron senses where the question is going, doesn't want to hear the criticism flow from the firt part, so he hijacks the question with the spin he needs -- you're responsible for the good and the bad -- and, no time left, no flow left, Edwards has to say, 'yeah, bad stuff too, we know where it came from, let's address it.'

And then all the DU'ers here who benefit from Cameron's spin are going to town.

Where anyone gets the notion that Edwards doesn't understand how the legislataive process or the constiution works, I don't know.

[Eloriel]

12. A nation of laws, not men

I have no idea where that phrase came from originally, but it was the Bush administration that taught me its meaning, which I never understood in the least.

It means, we must have laws in place so that we are not forced to rely on the good intentions, the honor, the integrity, or the beneficence of human beings in power.

It is frightening in the extreme for our people in Congress NOT to understand that. It is frightening in the extreme for some Senator to not have had a better understanding of the man he and so many other Senators confirmed into office in the first place. Damn! It's not as if this administration hasn't been usurping and consolidating power at EVERY opportunity (and too many of those opportunities handed to them on a silver platter).

This excuse from Edwards doesn't wash any better than his excuse for voting yes on IWR. Bah!

Eloriel

[arendt]

16. Chief Justice John Marshall, circa 1803

This was the meme by which Marshall carved out the
role of Constitutional oracle for the Supreme Court.
Before the ruling with this phrase, the Court was sort
of floundering to establish its role as a co-equal
branch of government.

arendt

[NashVegas]

14. FWIW

The debate's moderators set out to beat the crap out of Clark, at least that's how it looked to me.

I think Wes needs to slow down for a day or two and do some hard thinking about what he wants to present.

[SahaleArm]

2. Huh, Kos is now the democratic electorate?

I post on DailyKos but I am under no pretense that it's anything but a Dean site. BTW is the NH primary tomorrow or on 1/27?

MattS part II: http://theclarksphere.com/archives/000360.html

[FrenchieCat]

25. Dean Site is correct.....

Pure propaganda........

To help us lose the general election!

What a load of crap!

[w13rd0]

4. I am a Dean supporter, but that's harsh...

...there was a "Dean chat" on the night of the first debate Clark was to be a part of. Many Deanies expressed concern over Clark's entry. I told them, "Don't worry, it's a long primary and my support is where it is for a reason." Now I'm going to tell the Clarkies the same thing. Clark has an appeal almost unique among the candidates within the military and among dissaffected Republicans and establishment/centrist Democrats. That's nothing to be ashamed of. Even if it means they'll sit still long enough to hear criticism of Bush and have it hit home, or that they give all the candidates a closer listen, then his candidacy has already accomplished more than many potentials who would be otherwise ignored by these voters.

And it's a long primary, and plenty of things can happen...

[mikehiggins]

6. The road is long

with many a winding turn
that leads us to...

Wow! Is that pretentious or what? ;^)

Unless you are FAUX News, its way to early to count anyone out of the race. It's possible (not likely, but possible) that everyone will have some delegates when the convention roles around and it seems certain that both Al and the Ambassador will be heard from during prime time at that time.

I think Kerry and Gephardt may well go down in flames in Iowa and New Hampshire, unless something really foul turns up with Dean over the next few weeks. Actually, it would take something like a video of him in a three-way with Rove and Coulter to really shake his supporter's faith in him.

Senator Edwards will probably be the first "real" candidate to drop out, but Lieberman will be as hard to get rid of as a roach.

Clark has to hold on all the way down the line, figuring on picking up support from Kerry/Gephardt backers as their campaigns run onto the rocks. At the end of the day I think the race will be between Dean and Clark and Lieberman, with Dennis, Al and Ambassador Braun hanging in on principle.

Dean will still appeal to the adventurous among us, Clark to the ABBA crowd and more traditional Dems, and Lieberman to the remnants of the DLC crowd (though, with Clinton's backing Clark may pick up many of those people as well, figureing Leiberman hasn't a snowballs chance in hell of winning the general election).

So, in the end, it should come down to the Dean people on one side, and most everybody else on the other.

This game is a long way from played out, but I don't think there is any need for PANIC! yet on the part of the Clark campaign.

[ShaneGR]

5. NH and Iowa are important, but these states are MORE important

Feb. 3rd.... week following New Hampshire:

Arizona Presidential Preference Primary (Closed)
Delaware Democratic Presidential Primary (Closed)
Missouri Presidential Primary (Open)
New Mexico Democratic Caucus
North Dakota Caucuses
Oklahoma Presidential Primary (Closed)
South Carolina Democratic Presidential Preference Primary


I'll count Clark, or whoever else doesn't do well on this day, out of the running. Clinton didn't win Iowa or New Hampshire in 92. Bush didn't win New Hampshire either.

[IndianaGreen]

8. Hint: Clark is using the same DLC handlers that Gore had in 2000

Suggestion to Clark: Fire them all, and be yourself!

[AP]

9. Clark can't control the antipathy towards him from big media.

How do you fight that?

Fire your advisors and it'll fan the flames without doing anything about the root of the problem, which is that RW media doesn't want him to win the nomination.

[Hep]

11. How?

I don't know! How did he manage to get so much media BEFORE he declared?

[jeter]

10. Of course his campaign is awful

It's because he has Al Gore's people running it. And not even the good people on Gore's campaign. The idiots.

The same people who almost ran Kerry's campaign into the ground.

And Dean has been kicking ass again lately. Winning union support, getting Jesse Jackson Jr (and certainly Jesse Jackson himself in the future) to endorse him.

Dean is also back in the lead nationally. His polls in NH are way up.

Dean is the guy to beat.

[HFishbine]

13. A Dean Supporter's Take

Many bloggers are overly self-important and many evaluate the world ony as it exists in the blog-o-sphere. So the Dean/Clark notion no longer has enthusiasm of among the bloglodites. Big deal.

[Hep]

15. Remember

We're letting people who largely can't get dates run the dialog on those blogs. Think for yourselves!

[slinkerwink]

17. Clark Supporters are exactly where Dean's Supporters was in September

The uncertainty of Clark supporters is the same as the uncertainty of Dean supporters when Clark first entered the race. It's all about the ebb of supporter certainty. Remember, the Dean supporters overcame that, and so can the Clark supporters if they continue to rally around Clark and keep on providing the momentum on their blog.

This is a very long road to the primaries right now, and so many candidates can be knocked out of the way on the way to the nomination. Even though I'm a Dean supporter, I think Clark can make it to the end of the primaries. Just keep a stiff upper lip, Clarkies

:-)

[AP]

19. Dean supporters never had to confront the outright media hostility Clark

has to endure.

We're talking, Clinton-Gore-Davis levels of press hostility.

[Hep]

20. That's a matter or perception

n/t

[slinkerwink]

21. I disagree

When Dean was starting out big in August and September, he also faced those SAME levels of hostility. That's what happens in a media cycle. They lionized Clark before he ran, and in the first week after Clark entered the race----then the negative media cycle began.

That's what happens with front-runners. In my opinion Dean is the big front-runner, and Clark's #2.

[AP]

26. There are numerous articles that demonstrate anti-clark bias, and conason

has even written about it and MWO has written about it. It's perfectly obvious. There are also numberous articles about Dean which amount to puffery and free advertising for him from the same sources ripping apart Clark.

Go back to Mara Liasson's first long piece on Dean last March, and work forward. Show me an argument with references to text which proves your case that Dean ever got the treatment Clark gets.

I don't think you can make that case.

[JackRiddler]

22. Hilarious...

Dean gets mostly hostility right now, and has all along.

As has Clark.

Neither deserves it, not the media version. (My hostility is a different matter, as it is grounded in my impeccable analytic and strategic sense.)

Deal with it.

[AP]

27. Where's the anti-Dean bias in the major media?

I don't see it at all.

[Larkspur]

23. Yes, we did, but our candidate knew how to fight back

and we fought back WITH him by helping Dean win both the 2nd and 3rd quarter fundraising race.

Remember the Meet the Press interview Dean had with Russert the day before Dean's formal announcement speech on June 23, 2003? Dean was panned for his performance, but that didn't stop his supporters from helping him win the 2nd quarter fundraising cycle. That was our way of giving the "finger" to the media who unfairly hounded Dean.

And our support hasn't stop, both financially and effort wise. How many letters to Iowans and Granite staters are Clark supporters hand writing? Dean's supporters are dedicated to doing the grunt work of campaigning to help their candidate win. It's because of Dean's supporters dedication to their candidate, a dedication that makes us do things we have never done before, that makes the media finally recognize that Dean has a people-powered movement, not a campaign.

[LoneStarLiberal]

24. I Think There May Be Some Misdirection Here...

Possibly.

This is a really great idea..."the daily meme."

This guy writes a great column and points out some of the very real problems our campaign has encountered.

But I would emphasize to everyone that he is discussing memes found on blogs, not stuff that is carved in granite.

It may help to step back and read up on memes and what they represent before you get too deep into this and try to extrapolate from blog memes into reality.

I hope he keeps this up! Great job!