High school girl's diary confiscated and read...and then it gets bad

[ProdigalJunkMail]

A girl in our neck of the woods (Roswell, GA) had this happen to here in class. Her personal journal was confiscated by a teacher (it was being written in by another person in class...I guess it was like passing notes in class) and read after class. A disturbing story was found in the journal. It was written as a fiction. Not as desired course of action; it was just a short story. Well, thanks to the zero tolerance rules in this area, this 14 year old honor student who had never been trouble before, was EXPELLED from school for the remainder of the year. Yes, she has been granted a temporary reprieve while the case is re-reviewed.

This really gets in my craw. I understand that there are some concerns thanks to tragedies such as the one that occurred at Columbine...but since when is it illegal to think? To write? To put down on paper a fictional story? I could understand if this thing was a threat by someone. But it was not. The girl comes from a family that has gained a lot of joy over the years from writing...and this is how she is rewarded.

Here is the link to the article the expelled girl wrote for the AJC. Take a look...and then comment if you will!

Story

TheProdigal

[Frangible]

1. It just goes to show

Zero tolerance makes zero sense.

[dsc]

2. and just what do you say

when some little black non honor student who says a threat under his breath is expelled if this girl hasn't been? That is where these policies come from.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

5. there is a difference between a threat and a thought

And that needs to be properly communicated to our youth. Threats imply action...thoughts imply thinking.

TheProdigal

[E_Zapata]

21. And no threat has ever occurred without a preceding thought.....

"The story that got so much attention -- and that got me into so much trouble -- is about a girl who falls asleep in class. As she sleeps she dreams about shooting her sixth-period math teacher. Then she is shot as she tries to escape from the school resource officer. Just before the bullet hits her, she wakes from the dream to the sound of the bell ringing."

[zonmoy]

70. thinking

isnt that something that the education system trys to suppress?

[sangh0]

6. Here's what you say

A spoken threat is not the same one written down and never shown to anyone. The fact that the other kid spoke it out loud, even if at a low volume, suggests a problem with emotional control. The fact that the girl revealed it to no one indicates her ability to control her behavior.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

12. why inject race?

Something I do not understand...should race be a factor in how someone is treated? Is that what you are implying? Race has nothing to do with this whatsoever. This was a 'little' white girl...and she was expelled immediately. No questions asked. Literally. Do you think she was treated unfairly because she was caucasian?

You have succeeded in inflaming, if that was your tac...

TheProdigal

[E_Zapata]

22. I think race (or sociology re race) is an issue

being that it's WHITE MEN who primarily commit serial murder.

And WHITE kids who tend to shoot up school assemblies.

Put it this way, if I were hitchhiking, and two cars pulled over and one was an 50 year old asian man and one was a 38 year old white guy, I'd get in the car with the asian dude. Statistically speaking only.

Not that I would hitchhike.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

24. let's blame it all on whitey

enough said...

[E_Zapata]

26. Follow the gunfire in the schools......

and you will find a white kid.

nuff said.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

27. funny...

seems that a couple of other races might be involved in a shooting from time to time. It seems just last week a black person shot up a school bus-stop in Charlotte. Was he white...oh wait, he was black.

Race has no bearing on this...and none of your assigning of blame for all the school shootings will help you say that it does.

TheProdigal

[slackmaster]

30. Follow the brush fire that killed 12 people in San Diego County

And you find Mr. Sergio Martinez of West Covina.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

31. That fire is something else

I really feel for all those in CA that have to deal with this threat every year. Makes the piddly tornadoes that we have to deal with seem pretty tame...

TheProdigal

[slackmaster]

45. Yes, it's pretty awful

The more development gets pushed into the back country the greater the losses become. Fires have always happened and will always happen here.

[DoNotRefill]

83. actually...

I think all races have been represented in the school shooting phenomenon.

Bearing a sick mind isn't a function of skin color...and you should be ASHAMED of yourself for saying it is.

[Bandit]

56. Racial profiling

Are you advocating for that?

[enki23]

16. for it to be a "threat" it has to be *communicated*

if this journal entry was intentionally revealed by the girl who wrote it, then it might be considered a "threat." That isn't to say *she* might not *be* a threat, in the sense that we considered iraq to be a threat and invaded them, even though they were not *threatening* us. Your mileage, like the mileage of all of us, might vary on that part.

Is the rule in questin against *being* a threat, or is it against *issuing* threats?

[E_Zapata]

20. I am going to get really FLAMED for this,

but if I recall -- all the little high school mass murderers have been white -- usually middle class.

So, the little brown child who makes a heated statement doesn't scare me as much as the little quiet white kid who writes elaborate stories and fantasies.......

Just dealing with statistics here.

[Monte Carlo]

37. And just how does 'zero tolerance' help?

'Zero tolerance' is a piss-poor substitute for equal protection under the laws. It's more of that "Get Tough" bullshit attitude that people think help the situation, but only makes it worse.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

3. yepper

What ever happened to giving teachers and administration the authority to make decisions? Are we so scared of our kids that we cannot even allow them to express themselves? Can you imagine what would have happened if Stephen King were growing up in these times?

TheProdigal

[elfwitch]

4. spirit of the law...

The spirit of the law means nothing to these people. They are letter of the law types, except when the letter of the law applies to them.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

7. how can there be any interpretation of Zero Tolerance laws?

There is no room to maneuver there. This is the problem with Zero Tolerance rules. This should NOT be the way we handle situations...ANY of them.

TheProdigal

[gWbush is Mabus]

8. devil's advocate

IF she shot the math teacher, the school would be sued big-time.

after columbine, everyone was looking for telltale signs and how to prevent it.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

I hear ya, Smirk!

Whoops...sorry...damned touchpad mouse

[ProdigalJunkMail]

9. I hear ya, Smirk!

It goes to the whole mindset of the people in this whacked out country. There might have been some other appropriate action to take (such as having her evaluated by a qualified counselor) that could have covered this base. The rule now is, "kick 'em out!" Don't worry about intent (which has been used to make rulings in law for eons)...just kick 'em out!

Sorry, frustrated...
TheProdigal

[salin]

10. I think it stems more from Fear than zero tolerance rules

Because I don't know how this would fall under a 'rule'. She didn't have a weapon, she isn't 'threatening' violence (this wasn't a document delivere with a threat). I think it falls into the fear category. The adults in the school are afraid of kids. They think teens are out of control, and assume the worse. Especially after Columbine, but also a few of the earlier shootings, there has been a whole lot of "what signs could have been found" gnashing of teeth. I believe some former FBI agent even wrote a 'psychological profile' of kids that might snap, that was adopted and reviewed by many schools.

The consolidating of schools to make them larger and larger has made it harder for their to be any kind of relationships between students and teachers that can exist in schools of say 300 students and near impossible in schools of say 1800-3000 students. Thus the stereotypes and fear can dominate. Many large high schools, from an organizational stand point, seem to have a sort of institutional depression in which the adults think they can not really change things - all the problems are stacked up too high (its the parents fault, or its the poverty, or its that kids today don't want to learn, etc. etc.). In such an environment, nearly anything out of the norm can instill fear. I might worry about the fantasies expressed by the girl - but rather than advocate expulsion I think I would be more interested in speaking with her and her family, and if things seemed off would be more likely to recommend some kind of counseling rather than suspension/expulsion.

Just my two cents.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

11. valuable two cents...

There are so many problems with the education system as we know it. You certainly touch on a huge one with the class size issues. And the fear is an obvious contributor. Unfortunately, I think a lot of this goes back to basic lack of parenting in our society.

TheProdigal

[salin]

13. lack of good parenting .... for the teachers, or for the kids

;-)

[ProdigalJunkMail]

14. big smiley, but the point is...

BOTH. The benefits of a parent doing their damned job (as opposed to racing to beat the Jones's (or worse yet having to struggle to keep up with the bills)) is immesuralble. I want so much for the world to be set in such a way that people who WANT to parent...can.

TheProdigal

[salin]

15. I hear you

but for the life of me I don't know how one accomplishes this. Have been involved with some nonprofits that did some "parenting classes" that were patronizing and silly. Have heard court cases where to keep custody of children parents have had to attend court mandated parenting classes, for the third and fourth time (woah - those most be effective classes...)

I respect the role of parents - and know that parental involvement and guidance is so key to child/adolescent (and adult) development. But I don't know how we nurture those roles.

[msmcghee]

17. Just my .02

Someone learning to write (or being a writer) needs to be in touch with those real, raw things that run through their lives and minds. They can't start out by putting some subjects off limits - especially in a personal journal.

I suspect that most teens these days have spent a lot of time thinking about Columbine and similar events - wondering what they would do, or perhaps wondering what it was like inside the minds of the shooters that caused them to do what they did.

I hope she doesn't stop writing. In fact I hope she becomes a famous writer and someday recalls to future teens how she started out - to illustrate to children 20 years from now - what these incredibly ugly and debased times were about.

[Gato Moteado]

18. the school did this girl a favor....

...the same way fox news did al franken a favor. her spirit was not broken - in fact i bet her writing will only get better and more charged from this experience and the notoriety she gained will turn to fortune for her. watch her fillet the school for violating her privacy.

hopefully she'll find DU soon.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

23. I do hope her writing keeps growing

It is a nearly lost art. So many of the younger folks coming up in the schools these days just aren't encouraged to write anything 'unsanitary.' I have read some of her items and she is quite good. The Poet Laureate for the State of Georgia even spoke on her behalf at the expulsion hearing...fat lot of good it did.

TheProdigal

[DuctapeFatwa]

19. Parents have to hammer it home - NO writing, drawing leaves the house

Send a note to the school telling them your child will accept a non-fiction writing or art history report, and have them do any writing or drawing or painting AT HOME and KEEP IT AT HOME!

It is natural that they want to share it with friends, etc but it is simply not safe.

It is also natural that they want to tell their internet chat pals where they live and their cell phone numbers, but that is simply not safe either.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

25. it is a shame the world has come to this

I never recall having any fear of this sort of reprisal when I was in school. Just shows that our fear driven society is not only weighing on the minds of adults, but it is starting to crush our little ones before they can grow...

TheProdigal

[ProdigalJunkMail]

28. OFF TOPIC...why was this moved?

Started in GD and got moved here. Not really sure why...will ask in the admin forum too...

Thanks,
TheProdigal

[ProdigalJunkMail]

29. Hey...we're back

Thanks!

TheProdigal

[thebigidea]

32. welcome to High School

I was suspended for a week for drawing cartoons.

Threatened with expulsion for making satirical clay animation...

"CONFORM! CONFORM!"

Apparently, they didn't do a very good job with me.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

33. now that I think about it...

I was threatened over some drawings that I did in High School. They were a little impolite to a particular member of the school faculty. They didn't expect ridicule and the whole war of words got a little out of hand.

I don't think I conformed well, either!
TheProdigal

[Caution]

34. it's absurd

Shoudl they arrest Jim Carroll for his diary? He fantasized about machine gunning a classroom and he *published* his diary account of this. When does America realize that the exception does not prove the rule. There is not a single person alive who hasn't at one point or another said or thought "man i'd like to kill that SOB"

This does not make us into serial killers.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

35. this is a preparation, i believe

for a true thought police. Get the kids in the schools to believe that it is ok for administrators (or authority figures in general) to behave this way (punishing for thought) and then at some point in the distant future (like 15 years) someone puts up a bill criminalizing certain thought and it's epxression and it just might pass because the populace has been conditioned to believe this is a job of gov't.

We are headed for real trouble...
TheProdigal

[Monte Carlo]

36. 'Zero Tolerance' rules are the antithesis of all reason.

It's implied in the name itself. Zero tolerance policies are feel good, ILLUSION of security rules put up by people who choose to abdicate their duty as thinking beings. This is how we get honor students expelled for her creative writing, or an 8 year old suspended for using a breaded chicken finger as a gun.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

38. illusion is right

and it does seem that removing all need for rational thought seems to be the current goal. Once you kill the ability to truly THINK you kill the potential for opposition.

TheProdigal

[Monte Carlo]

40. The most hysterical interpretation wins with zero tolerance.

It's a game to see who can come up with the most outrageous and trumped-up explanation of the situation. I'd have been expelled from high school a thousand times over if every dark train of thought I had was made public.

[Colin Ex]

39. Honestly, had someone boosted one of my notebooks

and started reading it without my permission, I would have pitched a fit and made a huge ass scene.

What goes on in my notebooks is none of anybody's damn business. I side with the girl 100%.

-C

[ProdigalJunkMail]

43. this goes to the fact that

personal thoughts are PERSONAL THOUGHTS! One of the things that makes me think of this is the fact that my wife and I have some 'less than pleasant' thoughts toward one another from time to time. We have gotten to a great place in our relationship where we can share those (after the fact) but, if just the thoughts (like, I could KILL HIM when he doesn't put up his towel after a shower) were ACTIONS, we would both have been divorced, in prison or worse!

TheProdigal

[Muddleoftheroad]

44. Yes

But then don't write them up, bring them to school and show someone else.

[Colin Ex]

63. Okay...

So let's say I bring in an essay I've been writing in my notebook for a friend of mine to proof-read. I've done this several times before.

In this notebook, there happens to be some questionable material, but it's separate and old and not the focus to my friend who is proofing something ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. And then some power tripping wench takes the notebook and reads it? It's not like she was invited to read the notebook; what's in there is NONE OF HER DAMN BUSINESS.

Period.

-C

[Muddleoftheroad]

75. Wrong

Once you bring it onto school property, the situation changes. Students have no rights to privacy for their possessions on school property. They can be searched as can their lockers. Once it is in play, it is in play.

[Wednesdays]

97. Oh, I get it now...

minors have no rights.

:spank:

[Muddleoftheroad]

100. Not the same rights as the rest of us

That's been established. Nor should they. That whole minor thing.

[Wednesdays]

110. What the Supreme Court said

In Tinker v. Des Moines (393 US 503), the Supreme Court wrote, "It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate."

[Muddleoftheroad]

113. But not the same level of rights

They can't vote. They can't serve in the military. They can't drink. Their lockers can be searched. They can go through metal detectors. They HAVE to go to school up to a certain age. Etc.

[knight_of_the_star]

124. Not quite

They have to have "reasonable suspicion". That is easy to say, but they have to have SOMETHING first, which I personally think is a load of bull.

ON EDIT: I think it is a load of bull that they only need "reasonable suspicion", which can easily be rationalized after the fact.

[DemBones DemBones]

41. Kids need a better sense of what is and is not

appropriate in various situations. School, like the workplace, is not a situation in which is appropriate to write or talk about violent fantasies or sexual fantasies. It's perfectly appropriate to write such things in a personal journal but you don't take your personal journal to work or school. If you do take your journal to school or work, you take the risk that someone else will read it and there will be repercussions.

That's what happened here. The girl took her journal to school and she gave it to a friend, who was writing in it during class. There was poor judgement on her part and on the part of her friend. Is this particular case a case of free speech being suppressed -- or a case of a student effectively yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater? I'd say it's the latter.

How should a school's administration react to a student writing a story about a student shooting a teacher? If they let this slide, what happens when another student says "I'll shoot you" or "I'll kill you" to a teacher or another student?

The argument "It's just a story" is no better than the argument "It was a joke" made about the kid who says "I'll kill you." It probably is "just a story" and it probably is "a joke" in 99% of all cases, but school personnel have a responsibility to protect all of the students that supercedes giving the benefit of the doubt to one student who is out of bounds in their oral or written communications. They always have to be aware of the 1% of the time that it's not "just a story" or "a joke" but is a real threat.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

47. I can certainly see your points...well stated.

However, the point here is that the kneejerk reaction gives no other option that expulsion. Maybe she should have been counseled/evaluated to determine her state of mind. That would certainly give as much or more comfort to those concerned than expelling her. There is nothing (really) to stop her, if her intent is to do harm to the school...expelling her provides no real safety.

This is really about the zero tolerance garbage. Yes, we have to protect our schools from fanatical students with a death wish or something else along those lines. But, there is a better way to handle it...IMHO.

TheProdigal

[Muddleoftheroad]

49. OK, assume you are that teacher

Wouldn't you worry about her being in the school ever after? Could you teach her fairly? Could you see her reach into her backpack and not wonder whether she was grabbing a book or a gun?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

50. Actually, I am a teacher

and no, I would not. I know this girl (I do not teach in her school) and she is no threat to anyone. The point is here that she is an individual and should be treated as one and not part of some larger schema that seems to define all kids today. There should have been other options available than expulsion. Part of being a teacher is learning a little about the kids you teach...helps you connect better and therefor teach better IMO.

Also, expelling her protects no one. Securing a school is almost impossible without post guards at every entrance and stopping every student that comes in. Heck, we have kids from other schools show up here just about every day...if she had intended to hurt someone, this would not have stopped her.

TheProdigal

[Muddleoftheroad]

54. So you trust her

But why should HE?

She might be a wonderfully gifted girl. She might have more troubles than you realize and be a threat. It really doesn't matter. Neither you nor I is qualified to judge her. But her actions certainly create a climate of threat to the teacher in question. And he has a right to feel safe at his job.

That girl should NEVER be allowed back into that school as long as that teacher teaches there. Is that fair to her? Perhaps not. But she did a grown-up thing by bringing in a story about killing a teacher and showing it to another student. Now, just like other things in life, that action has consequences.

Yes, it is sad we can't secure our schools. But that doesn't mean we invite in people who pose a threat -- even if they SEEM nice.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

57. i disagree

Are we then to suggest that all writing in school must be about happy and sterile things? The fact is, she wasn't showing this to another student (the story) rather was having the other student write in the journal (my understanding of the story...I have no first-person experience in this case). The story was found after a teacher confiscated the journal because it was a distraction in class and THEN noticed the story while reading the journal. And the story mentioned a sixth period math class, but there are several math classes going on in sixth period in that school.

As far as adult consequences, since when is it a crime to write a story, as an adult, about killing and mahem? This story does not even rise to that level. If it were a crime, as someone earlier in this thread pointed out, nothing would ever be published. This story was not written as a threat to anyone. It was about an unnamed person having a dream. Nowhere in the story was a threat made. Just writing about an action does NOT constitute a threat (even in a court of law, a threat has to be against SOMEONE or SOMETHING before it is considered a threat).

And, yes, I am a slippery-sloper on this. This is criminalization of thought and its expression. There were no THREATS written in that story. At some point, this sort of thing could be turned on speech/thought that you find acceptable...but someone else does not.

TheProdigal

ON EDIT : NOTE : Caps not for yelling, just emphasis

[Muddleoftheroad]

59. Not happy, just not life threatening

OK, part of this story we will never know. Was the other girl looking at this particular story or not? We won't ever really know. But the teacher, in the course of the day, took this away and found the story. She reported it as was the correct thing. Everything after that is just like the real world.

Let's talk adult consequences. Let's take this out of school and into the workplace. How would it be any different if I had done this about a coworker? I would have been fired. Is it a crime? No. But definitely actionable in a workplace.

Do we live in an age where people are less tolerant of such things? Yes. And, because there are enough nutty people out there, we need to be careful.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

60. i have a hard time with the comparison

we are talking about here. We are now comparing a school run by the government and therefor its very extension and a workplace run by private industry. There are absolutely consequences for speech! No doubt in the world we live in people are free to react to your speech in any way they see fit (provided no crime is committed in that reaction). But the government is not allowed to quell speech in any form...unless a threat. And this story does not constitute a threat to anyone. If this had been a directed threat, then I would up there shouting the loudest about getting her the heck out of the school. But that is not what we are dealing with.

I agree that actions have consequences, but the government has ZERO right to tell you what you can think/write/say.

TheProdigal

[Muddleoftheroad]

76. Government

Has an obligation to protect people in the workplace, as well as protect the students. This does qualify as a threat and, had it been about me or close enough, I would have expected the girl to be banned from school. Had that not been the case, I would have refused to work and filed suit.

The girl can think what she wants, but government can and must be able to control dangerous forms of expression such as threats. No rights are absolute and freedom of speech has its limits.

[salin]

67. the teacher didn't just find the story

she went snooping through the girl's journal. Had I confiscated a student's journal, I would have held it until the end of class (for a day for a first offense) and lectured her about distracting other students when I gave it back to her. I wouldn't have gone rifling through it.

Even when working with kids on the verge of long-term suspension in Detroit (teens who generally didn't like school much - but we worked on that), I would not have been so edgy about my students as to be nosing through their private papers unless I was invited to do so. Just because "I can" doesn't make it right.

While in many classes the kids could give teachers a really hard time, I rarely had any discipline problems. To a great extent because I treated them with respect, I treated the work we did in school seriously and expected them to do the same (and guess what.. they did).

[Muddleoftheroad]

77. Confiscated

Well, a teacher has a reasonable right to look at what students were passing around in class. Perhaps the teacher went too far. If that is case, then the girl has company. In this day and age, after Columbine, any student who brings a story to school about killing someone at a school is none too bright.

[salin]

98. Was before Columbine - but during the time

when there were three shootings on school grounds or in front of a school on a single day in Detroit. Somehow that never made the news beyond Detroit.

It didn't change my basic behavior towards my students. I held them to high standards, and treated the students with dignity. In return they performed at a high level (which surprised some of the other teachers, as I said these kids - for different reasons - were on the verge of long term suspensions).

We can blame kids, their parents, and society for many of the changes in school. But I have found that often institutional school behavior (eg administration and teachers) exacerbates rather than addresses problems. Suddenly schools turn into adversarial places with adults fearing kids. Common sense, in this atmosphere, often disappears. And in society we have a knee-jerk reaction to affirm the actions taken by the adults regardless of the situation. Imo, it is one thing to be careful and cautious in schools these days. It is yet another to 'see danger in each and every kid' - and to behave accordingly. That doesn't address anything, but creates an even more hair-trigger nervous atmosphere.

[Wednesdays]

99. And then what?

Perhaps the teacher went too far.

So you actually admit that.

In this day and age, after Columbine, any student who brings a story to school about killing someone at a school is none too bright. Okay, kids...never ever think of writing that murder mystery novel!

The point here is the overreaction. If...(and this is a big IF) the teacher had the right to read the notebook, certainly an appropriate first step would be to speak with the girl and/or parents.

Just like Michael Moore points out in Bowling for Columbine, this country is so paranoid, every little thing elicits an "OH MY GOD" reaction.

[Muddleoftheroad]

102. Note the word, perhaps

Perhaps not also. I doubt we'll get a clear enough account to be sure.

A murder mystery novel is not a story about a student killing a teacher. It's not even close.

No, the appropriate response to a potential threat is to keep the threatening person from the school till more investigation can occur. But, since this IS a threat, that author should never be allowed in this school again and only back into the school system after counseling and assessment.

[Wednesdays]

105. Um

A murder mystery novel is not a story about a student killing a teacher. It's not even close.

A murder mystery could easily include a teacher as the victim, and a student as the perpetrator. How about explaining this:

http://www.lessontutor.com/ci5.html

There are no apparent restrictions in content or subject!

No, the appropriate response to a potential threat is to keep the threatening person from the school till more investigation can occur. But, since this IS a threat, that author should never be allowed in this school again and only back into the school system after counseling and assessment.

IOW, guilty until proven innocent.

[Muddleoftheroad]

106. Sets and subsets

There are probably millions of murder mystery novels in the world. Some few of them probably involve school teachers. Probably a lot fewer involve students killing said teachers.

As for guilty until proven innocent, there was enough evidence to remove the writer from school initially. Since we all now know it was indeed a threat, the child should not be allowed back into that school at all.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

71. Sure, let's look at your analogy

A woman at work has a personal journal in which she has written a fictional story about an unnamed person who falls asleep and dreams about killing an unnamed coworker before being killed herself. Her boss comes in and takes her personal journal and after having been asked not to read it, does so anyway and then fires her because of the story. All I see is a big lawsuit brewing which the company would likely lose.

Our society constantly bombards our kids with violence through fiction, tv, movies, news. Now, you think it is appropriate for a school to expell any kid that demonstrates that they have thought about this violence? That would be like raising an entire generation of Fox viewers.

Finally, my last point is that let's say she really is in danger of snapping and shooting up people at school. Given that we now know (or strongly suspect this) what is the appropriate course of action? Counseling? No. Investigating? No. Clearly, we should just expell her because that certainly wouldn't make her any more likely to come after us with a gun. :eyes:

[Muddleoftheroad]

78. Employment at will

Many states have employment at will. Even those that don't have procedures for firing employees who make threats. For a boss to see this material, an employee would have to be working on it during work hours. That alone can get you fired. But working on or showing around a story involving killing coworkers might result in a lawsuit, but you will be unemployed all the same. As you should be.

I am not saying to expel all kids who think about violence. This is a very specific response to a very specific action.

First off, this girl should never be allowed to return to the school in question. She poses a threat to the teacher and a likely disruption if she does. To get back into any school, she should have to have a psychiatric exam.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

84. But I think you are wrong about this specific action

Unless of course, you know something about the situation that I don't. There was another article linked in the posted one that had slightly more information. http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/northfulton/1003/25rachel.html

First, the story is about a girl dreaming about shooting her sixth-period math teacher. The her here refers to the girl dreaming, not to Rachel. Neither of the articles even hinted that this fictional sixth-period math teacher referred to a specific identifiable person. Heck, we don't even know if Rachel had math class during sixth period.

Second, there is no evidence that she wrote this and then started showing it around. She wrote it at the beginning of the semester, and then two months later another student had her journal to write in. The teacher took it away and read it and initiated the conflict.

If everyone who has ever said something to the effect of "I could just kill my boss right now" after getting upset was fired, pretty much this entire country would be looking for work right now. Making the students tiptoe around school doesn't make it a conducive environment for learning.

[Muddleoftheroad]

91. Continuing

Since the author in question is a student and the girl in the story is a student, that is not much of a leap.

As I said before, we will never know if she was showing this specific story, but she brought the story in and was showing the journal around. If I brought a death threat note in my pocket and it fell out on the floor, we would have the same result.

Saying I could kill my boss might have been ignored in the old days. These days it is not. Very likely other employees will report it. Especially if you write a whole story about it and bring it into the workplace.

[dionysus]

111. please pass me what you are smoking!

>First off, this girl should never be allowed to return to the school >in question. She poses a threat to the teacher and a likely >disruption if she does. To get back into any school, she should have >to have a psychiatric exam.

If you think this girl poses a threat to anyone you must be insane or really fearful of kids. It was a short story in a journal for christs sake. And the article said that her friend was writing in the journal; you make it sound like she was passing around her "kill the teacher story" to everyone in class.

[Muddleoftheroad]

114. Sorry, I don't smoke

Again, it's great that so many are willing to defend free speech. However, few are even trying to look at this as the school or even more like the teachers.

To the teachers, this girl poses a threat. That means she can't be in that school. Period.

[Occulus]

61. Each and every time

I hear an argument like this one I think of the ad campaign Nick at Night ran a couple years back. They were promoting reruns of "The Brady Bunch", and showed Alice saying "I'm gonna kill him!" about fifty zillion times.

[Muddleoftheroad]

42. The other side

It's always good to have lots of defenders of freedom of speech, but look at it the other way.

This girl wrote about killing a teacher. Not just any teacher, but a specific grade and class which also means a specific person. Then she brought that story into school and showed it to someone else.

Forget how SHE feels for a second. How would you feel if you were that teacher? You would, in today's climate, take it as a threat and rightly so. Your union would too. Both would demand dismissal or at least transfer.

I'm sorry for the girl, but we ask a lot of kids these days and one of those things is they play in a grown-up world now and need to learn it.

[Terwilliger]

46. thought police

Just what I expect from you, muddle

[Muddleoftheroad]

48. Not thought police at all

What she does at home or on her own are perfectly OK. When she brings a threat into school and communicateds it to others, that impacts a staffer. You have no choice but to take action.

Quick question, have you seen the movie, "Bang, Bang, You're Dead?" You might not feel quite the same afterward.

This could well be a cry for help from the girl and needs to be investigated, but it is still a threat.

[thebigidea]

51. if fiction were a cry for help... all authors would be LOCKED UP

start with that Stephen King guy!

Then nab William Burroughs... oh wait, he's dead.

[Muddleoftheroad]

53. Not at all

Stephen King writes of his youth in the past tense. He writes of broader issues and broader concepts. He is not a student in a particular school who is writing about killing a particular teacher.

Again, how would you feel if you were the teacher in question here?

[thebigidea]

66. Exhibit A: Stephen King, "RAGE"

Concerns a student opening fire in a classroom.

"Again, how would you feel if you were the teacher in question here?"

If it's a hand-delivered note written in blood threatening me, I take it up with the principal.

If its a story in a notebook that isn't delivered as a threat and I have no business reading anyway, I ignore it.

Do we go after the kids drawing cartoons of their teachers too?

[Muddleoftheroad]

80. Rage

According to what I find, Rage was published in 1977 when King was 30, not when he was in school.

Well, your response to the story is less than that of what many ordinary people would have. What happens then if the girl DOES harm you. Is there enough money in the school system to pay for the subsequent suit? I doubt it.

Yes, you go after drawings if they show the teacher being murdered.

[thebigidea]

90. ah..

but the obvious extension of your asanine argument would be - what if a poor deluded teen got wind of the sickening Kingly influence and sought out Maine students to murder? Would he be liable for lawsuits if specifically implicated on convenient "My First Stalking" websites?

boy, stuff like this, real basic freedom of speech you're against... man, its almost like you HATE FREEDOM or something.

[Muddleoftheroad]

92. Obvious extension?

Not likely. Although I am sure some idiot lawyer somewhere would sue nevertheless.

I love the last line. I know I've seen it somewhere. lol.

Seriously folks, the school system had no choice and, in an era of caution in the school system, this girl was pretty stupid to do this.

[Wednesdays]

103. Oh?

the school system had no choice

No other choice? None?

Life is so nice when it's black-and-white.

[Muddleoftheroad]

107. Zero tolerance

That's what zero tolerance means.

[thebigidea]

109. doesn't that post look gorgeous

"That's what zero tolerance means." next to MLK

[Muddleoftheroad]

115. I don't design zero tolerance policies

But they exist to make sure that all students are treated equally. Not a bad concept if you ask me. It's a lot better than a "good" student who is usually of a certain social strata always getting away with problems and a "bad" student who is typically poor always getting punished.

[thebigidea]

117. doubleplusgood, citizen

your dedication to the eradication of thoughtcrime is duly noted. A still tongue makes a happy mind, citizen. Be seeing you.

[Muddleoftheroad]

120. Not doublespeak

I see the advantages of treating all children equally. It's such a rarity.

[thebigidea]

123. you are wise in the ways of everything and anything, citizen.

Must be off to the junior antisex league.

[RobinA]

52. Oh My....

Schools expelling kids for thoughts, teenage girls bringing their diaries to school, teenaged girls writing about shooting their math teachers.... I'm tempted the think this girl and this school deserve each other, but school officials are supposed to be more mature than teenagers, so yeah, they are way out of bounds here. It's my belief that kids, even young ones, know on some level that this zero tolerance stuff is nonsense and respect their school offcials accordingly.

[jiacinto]

55. The Blunt Truth

What if this girl was serious and then a shooting took place? Then people everywhere--along with many DUers--would be asking "why did the school district not do anything?" The school district would then face lawsuits and left and right.

The district did what they thought was appropriate to protect them from getting sued. Period. That's what it's really about.

What they should have done, IMO, is refer the matter to the school psychologist. They then should have called the parents. They should have evaluated the girl's mental state and then taken whatever appropriate action they deemed necessary.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

58. wow, I agree with you!

:-)

She should have been evaluated...zero tolerance is a problem. There needs to be some rational thought put into this!

TheProdigal

[jiacinto]

64. I hate zero tolerance rules

Sometimes, in certain situations, they are needed (ie rules against theft, etc). However, in most situations, I think they take away discretion, which is important. I do think that from case to case you have to evaluate each situation differently.

[Zhade]

62. This is maddening.

A lot of people here write - in fact, everyone who posts writes! - and this is just insane.

This experience will not discourage me from writing. If anything it will motivate me to write more stories. I will just have to be more careful about where I write them and who I show them to.

That really saddens me. We've come to the point where US soldiers frisk four-year-old Afghanis and crack down on American teenagers' fiction writing. Rachel, like others, now suffers under the knowledge that free speech really isn't all that free anymore.

I know a lot about this - my mother was a journalist. She spent 17 years of on-and-off schooling, while raising two kids and working full-time, to get her degree. I'm biased, of course, but I think she's a fantastic writer. So did her employers - until she went too far in cracking down crooked state officials, and the paper she wrote for told her to quit or be fired for "substandard work".

Four days later, she won the top prize for journalism in the Southeast. The paper was clearly in the policians' pockets.

To this day, she has not been able to work again. She was blacklisted, and it really angers me. We have a right to free speech, dammit!

(By the way, I actually found a couple of her old stories online! This one is from where she worked before the newspaper mentioned above.)

[jiacinto]

65. Put yourself in the position of that school district

What would you then if this girl were to actually follow through on her threat and shoot everyone? What would you tell parents of people she might have killed had she been serious when they ask you "why didn't you do anything about this"?" And how would you, as a superintendent, deal with the inevitable lawsuits that would follow?

While I disagree with the draconian measures employed by the district I do think that they chose that course of action to protect themselves from being sued. They didn't want to deal with the multi-million lawsuits that would follow had the worst outcome happened.

I do think, though, that they should have reffered the matter to the school psychologist and then evaluated whether she actually was a threat or not. And then taken the action from there.

[slackmaster]

68. I agree with you completely

A competent psychologist could quickly distinguish between creative writing and a real intent to do harm.

[DemBones DemBones]

74. School psychologists are typically more

knowledgeable about tests and measurements than about abnormal psychology. And I don't agree that psychologists can magically decide who's dangerous and who isn't. Now, if you had a truly psychic psychologist. . .

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

72. So it is all about liability

Who cares about the students or the safety of the teachers. As long as the school is not liable then it's ok.

btw, this isn't so much directed at you but at your comment about being sued. You and I agree that it should have been first handled by the school psychologist.

[jiacinto]

79. That too

But mainly liability. Unfortunately money talks.

[Muddleoftheroad]

81. Not just liability

The teacher that fits the description in the book still has to work at the school. This story clearly creates a hostile and threatening workplace.

[killbotfactory]

69. I'm glad I graduated high school before columbine..

I would have been expelled for some of the crap I wrote or drew.

Whatever happened to talking it over with the student?

[jiacinto]

86. Maybe the thought of a multi million dollar lawsuit

and dead people were on their minds.

[DemBones DemBones]

73. Zero tolerance policies are problematic,

to be sure, but they are meant to hold all violators of the policy to the same standard and that's a good thing. If this case involved a mediocre student who'd had numerous disciplinary referrals, it wouldn't have made the newspaper. But should that kid (a "bad" kid, a "discipline problem") be punished more harshly for expressing his/her thoughts? Assuming similar content of the expressions of thought, why should the school be more lenient with the never-been-in-trouble honor student? An honor student should be better able to understand the policy, if grades reflect any ability to think in a reasonable manner.

Kids get pigeonholed in school as good students/ bad students, smart/average/dumb, well-behaved/ troublemakers, and a lot of teachers do little to challenge the labels and preconceptions that get attached to kids. I know you've seen this, Prodigal, just as dsc and I, and anyone else who's taught, has. Kids are not as simple as the labels suggest, and they're awfully limited by those labels. The "dumb troublemakers" need to have chances to be smart and well-behaved while the smart and well-behaved need to be allowed to screw up academically and in behavior.

If this school is typical, I'm afraid that the school psychologist would have taken the popular view of this girl as good student/ smart / well-behaved to mean "No danger." Then what? She's not punished? She's punished less than the rules say? Is that fair?

The school isn't really policing anyone's thoughts; they're dealing with thoughts that have been expressed on paper, or in speech, when those expressions of thought suggest that the student could be a threat to the safety of others. People have to learn how to appropriately express their thoughts.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

87. There's a good reason that we don't do that for

the rest of our laws. Theft: 2 years prison sentence.

Average employee - you stole $0.50 from the company. See you in 2 years.

Ken Lay - you stole Billions from the company leaving thousands of people without work and retirement. Only 2 years?

Of course, that's more than he'll get now, but that hardly seems like justice to me.

[ComerPerro]

82. Man, this is BS

I find it hard to accept that she is being expelled. Its a work of fiction, for Christ's sake.

Mainly, my thoughts on this are: I am very glad that I am out of high school. I don't see why people romanticize it so much...


Its always good to hear from you, Prodigal. But I haven't seen your name in a while. How are things?

[jiacinto]

85. Put yourself in the position of a school system superintendent

Would you want to be sued by angry parents if this girl actually went through on her fantasies? And would you want to deal with distraught parents asking you "why you didn't do anything to stop her"?

[ComerPerro]

88. Yeah, I agree with that part

But I think threatening expulsion is just too over the top.

[jiacinto]

89. Well it should have been handled differently

I would have had the girl evaluated by the school psychologist and then determined what cours of action, if any, should be followed.

[Muddleoftheroad]

93. Not enough

Sorry, that might be fine for the girl, but that doesn't cover reactions of the teacher or teachers who feel threatened.

[salin]

101. or address the over reactions

of teachers who have come to view their students as threats, and percieve danger lurking behind every bookcase. Throw in a racially diverse student body - and watch how 'even handedly' even zero tolerance cases are handled. Not always a pretty sight. And rarely creating an atmosphere condusive to learning.

I have seen crazy things on the professional end. I can not figure out why folks either always see the student as right or always see the adult as right. Rarely are situations so static (where kids are always at fault or the teachers are always at fault.)

Let me tell you about working in an urban district that was under court order to desegrate its classes (it tracked by race.) At two middle schools that were found to be out of compliance (the courts found that the middle schools were using "advanced classes" beginning in the 6th grade to determine which students would have access to college prep classes in high school, and furthermore that the racial composition in those classes defied statistical reasoning - that is - race mattered more than ability/test scores.) faculty requested that professional development dollars allocated to the school should be sent on buying staff copies of "The Bell Curve". So some faculty believed that buying a poorly developed (in terms of statistical methods and thus faulty findings and policy recommendations) book should be used, essentially to back up their belief that the kids weren't really being racially tracked - but that their tracking reflected reality. It was shameful. I never looked at my own profession with quite the same eyes or blind spots.

[Muddleoftheroad]

108. Not an overreaction

To view threats as, well, threats.

We all have a right to work in a relatively safe environment depending on the profession. Some jobs are indeed more hazardous than others, but you should not be subjected to working with someone who threatens your life.

And I certainly don't always see the adults as correct, just in this case.

[jiacinto]

126. I see your point there

nt

[FlaGranny]

94. Boy does this thread make me angry!

In the 1940's and 1950's I was a youngster with a very vivid imagination. I wrote stories (at the ages of about 8 to 15) and drew pictures that would make your hair stand on end. Pictures and stories of torture and murder. I also wrote of and drew pictures of flowers, horses, cats, dogs, science fiction, etc. I said I had a vivid imagination. I liked to draw pictures of "morphed" creatures who had parts of many different animals and humans. The "bad" stories and drawings were in the minority. I was a kid who could not even hurt a bug! I was a kid who was always optimistic and happy - I still am. I liked school and did well there. I read a lot and I read anything I wanted to. I wrote any kind of story I wanted and drew any kind of picture I pleased. My parents encouraged me to be a free spirit and so did my teachers. I have a feeling that if I were a kid today, I would know shame for some of the free spirited writing and drawing I did as a child, and would have my imagination suppressed. That saddens me and makes me angry.

[slackmaster]

95. I was a shool kid in the '60s and '70s

It's hard to imagine kids singing like we did back then, to the tune of The Battle Hymn of the Republic:

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school
We have tortured every teacher, we have broken every rule...

:shrug:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

96. Oh man...does that take me back

That was one of my favorite renditions of the old standard! And you can only imagine what they would do to a student singing that one today!

TheProdigal

[MrPrax]

112. ROLF...where did you go to school in the 60s...china? heh n/t

[slackmaster]

125. San Diego Unified School District

California.

Why do you ask? (I'm kind of dense today and don't grok your comment about China.)

[Wednesdays]

104. According to Muddle, you had no right to do that.

Sieg Heil!

[Muddleoftheroad]

116. LOL

No rights are absolute. You can't libel either. Nor can you write threats. Shocking these horrible limits on expression.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

118. what part of 'not a threat' do you not understand?

I can appreciate your position if this were a threat directed at a teacher...but it simply was not. Have you not been reading the thread? The girl wrote a short story about a girl dreaming in an unnamed class (sixth period math of which there are about 10 classes) and an unnamed teacher. It was a story...not a threat...

TheProdigal

[Muddleoftheroad]

121. Still a threat

and a pretty specific one to be exact. Enough so that if you are a math teacher in the school you might not want the girl in your class, your hallway or your office. Probably not hanging around your car after class either.

Kids killing kids is an unfortunate reality. To ignore a clear warning sign of a possible attack is irresponsible.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

122. sorry...stories are not threats

if they were NO ONE would ever leave their homes. There were NO SPECIFIC threats here. I appreciate that you feel that way though and now am completely aware that I will be unable to convince you otherwise...

TheProdigal

[thebigidea]

119. sure you can,if its fiction

[jiacinto]

127. Put yourself in the position of the district superintendent

, the principle, or the teacher involved. Now let's assume that this girl was serious and did come to school shooting everyone one day. What would you tell the angry and distraught people when they ask you, "You knew that she was dangerous. Why didn't you do anything to stop her?" What would you tell your boss when the district gets slapped with a multi-million dollar lawsuit filed by these families?

[theboss]

128. The schools are in a tough position . . .

If they ignore this, then the child commits a crime, and everyone blames the school and starts looking to sue.

If they treat each case differently, someone screams discrimination and looks to sue.

I don't like zero tolerance policies, but in today's climate, I don't know the answer either.

The problem to me is that the punishment is too harsh. It should probably be something like "suspension, followed by counseling" and be the same for everyone.