Three Enemies In One!

[Beetwasher]

The situation in Iraq is spiraling out of control and the US "leadership" is clueless. That much is clear. Their only strategy it seems has nothing to do with military tactics, logistics, or Iraq for that matter. Their strategy for dealing w/ the Iraq situation is all about convincing the American people that things are just honkey dorey in Iraq and it's really just a handful of evil terrorists making trouble. They're wrong about this too, though they've certainly got the press on their side pushing this nonsense.

One thing that hit me while watching the news channel discussions on the Ramadan massacre was the insistence by the talking heads and experts that the bombers fell into two classes; Saddam/Baath loyalists and Foreign fighters (Al Qaeda). They are completely ignoring the third, most dangerous element; the true resistance fighters.

This third enemy are people who were neither Saddam supporters or Al Qaeda supporters before the war, but rather normal everyday Iraqi's who are most certainly rising up against a foreign occupier. These are the people who the US hoped would be on their side and would join the US backed Iraqi security. The good people of Iraq who might have once joined this local police force now have many more reasons not to. They have the track record of US opression that would turn them off, and now if they join they become walking targets for their own people. Many of these people are now either setting up their own resistance or joining the Baathists or Al Quaeda.

And there's the rub. The US is now actively trying to recruit locals to join the US backed security or police force. Think about that for a moment. Let's reverse the situation. Let's assume the US was invaded and occupied by a foreign power that then started recruiting locals to police (oppress) their own people. Who would join that police force? It wouldn't be the people who truly cared about their country. The people who joined that police force would be traitorous scum. They would be people who would willingly sell out their neighbors and their family for a buck. It would be criminals and lunatics who are looking for an opportunity to legally carry a gun and have official permission to intimidate people. Either that, or they would be moles for the resistance. What makes anyone think the locals joining the Iraq polic force are any different?

This esentially means that any police force the US puts together in Iraq is going to be at best a worthless collection of chaotic, money, power hungry scum and at worst be moles actively working against the US. It's lose-lose. By arming and ceding any authority to this police force the US is in fact arming and ceding power to either criminals and untrustworty traitors or moles who are really working as part of the resistance.

[Beetwasher]

1. Wow that dropped fast KICK!

n/t

[proud patriot]

2. Important issue

I believe that the people in charge do not understand
the history of the region . Back when there were only
whispers of an Iraq war I started reading the history
from the begining on . The people of this region have
for over 2 thousand years been fighting foriegn aggressors.

I think one of the most important questions to ask oneself
is why for over 2 thousand years have aggressors wanted the
Region .

[Beetwasher]

4. Either they don't understand or they don't care

I'm not sure what to think...It's possible they knew the situation would look something like this but thought they could control the US public's perception through their control of the media and propoganda. It's difficult for me to believe that they could have been so incompetent, but then again, the level of their incompetency never ceases to amaze..:shrug:

[proud patriot]

6. perhaps they don't care

maybe they thought they could contain it enough
to keep it away from Americans view (like Afganistan)
just fell off the radar , we won that one too :eyes:

But honestly I think it is "know it all" arrogance
that has put our troops Americans and the world
in such peril .

Whatever the case the "3 enemies" in Iraq are getting
more and more pissed off .

I worry more and more everyday about the soldiers
I want them home and safe .

[Beetwasher]

7. I know, me too

It's incredibly disheartening to see what's going on. There was a pic on the cover of the NYT today of a soldier (a kid!) and the look on his face, man, the fear was palpable...

[JackRiddler]

35. Why?

Then: Mesopatamia was a fine prize in itself, and was the route to further conquests. Greeks and Romans had to go through the ME if they were going to take Persia and India, Persians and Turks had to go through the ME for a shot at Asia Minor and Med plums like Egypt and Greece.

Now: I'll give you three guesses, but only if they are spelled 0,I,L.

Always: It's a small planet. Anyone who's conquered one place will think about how to conquer the place after that. All the places have been conquered at some point. North America only once, so far.

& Thanks for letting me show you my profound historical knowledge. ;)

[Beetwasher]

36. Good Job

That about sums it up!

[not systems]

3. classic resistance

It seems that the bombs in Iraq are aimed at making
it ungovernable at this point.

Who would take the risk to work for the ocupation if
it makes you a target for bombing.

The Iraqi resistance is just doing it by the book.

It is too hard to tell who is doing what but if this
keeps up your "third enemy" will emerge because of
desperation.

[Beetwasher]

5. I think the populace has already turned on the US

If they were ever really on the US's side to begin with. Everything else is just spin. I've seen reports that if we don't turn things around in 6 months we'll lose the Iraqi people. Unfortuantely, I think they're already lost, it's only a matter of degree...

[proud patriot]

8. I think it's emerging as I type

more and more every hour everyday :-(

[Beetwasher]

9. Kick

n/t

[sangh0]

10. They've already infiltrated

According to an article in yesterday's NY Times, one of the Iraqi Governing Council's (or whatever their name is) official (ISTR it was their new foreign minister, a Kurd) was almost assasinated by a bomb planted outside his office.

[Beetwasher]

11. Yup. I suspect that the police

at this point in the game are thoroughly infiltrated with either moles or thugs. Any "good" Iraqi's would stay far away from the police and the US, I would think...

[sangha]

14. I should also note

that by "outside his office" I did not mean "outside the building". I meant "in the hallway right outside his office"

[Beetwasher]

15. Yup. No two ways about it

Internal security in Iraq is thoroughly corrupted. There's no way we can trust any of the locals. When that happens, there's no going back.

[Beetwasher]

12. Kick!

n/t

[leftofthedial]

13. The Bush GOPNAC cabal have only two tricks

Call it the Penn and Teller Misadministration

Domestic PR:
distract us with sleight of hand PR on every possible issue--no substance, just feel-good PR

Steal as much as you can as fast as you can:
Loot the treasury, let corporate criminals off the hook (unless they are Democrats), start incredibly destructive high tech wars and reward yourselves with no-bid, open-ended rebuilding contracts and with re-arming weapons contracts

[Beetwasher]

16. I Always Claim That

Rove has 3 tricks, otherwise he's a moron: Massive frontal attack, backstab and bait and switch...

Penn & Teller are WAY more sophisticated than these clowns...That's what's so damn irritating though about the Dems; these morons are TOTALLY predictable if you try and therefore easy to counteract...That's why I believe the Plame Affair is still in it's nascency, the CIA know these guys and are setting things up nicely...

[salin]

17. on that looting thing... they sort of remind me in

hyperspeed of Ferdinand Marcos - loot and plunder the treasury, loot and plunder national resources for self and crony gain, etc.

[leftofthedial]

18. most efficient treasury looters in history

they've transferred more wealth faster than any people or event in human history.

[Beetwasher]

19. Yup, from 5 Trillion surplus to 1/2 Trillion deficit

In two years...Must be some sort of record...

Keep in mind, the deficit that Clinton inherited was accrued over 20+ years of irresponsible spending...The Chimp surpassed that in 2 years...

[leftofthedial]

20. I have heard that the actual deficit when Clinton took office

was much much higher than what had been reported by the first Bush Cabal.

I've also heard that Clinton considered filing charges against Poppy. This is when the Clinton attack machine swing into real action. Then Clinton decided not to press charges because exposure of the true magnitude of the Reagan-Bush deficit might have created economic panic.

[proud patriot]

25. I recall it was in a book by Greensspan or about Greenspan

Greenspan is who said this of bush sr.

"The American Economy Won't Survive Another Bush term"

[Beetwasher]

28. I read that somewhere as well

Apparently the books were completely fraudulent and the economic damage was critical...Clinton instead of blaming Bush, rolled up his sleeves and went to work...I shudder to think what the real picture of the US economy now looks like...

[MrPrax]

21. The chaos was predicted by most

The Bush Admin 'thinktank' probably predicted it as well, but didn't acknowledge it.

Let's face it...the crude attempt to interject into Iraq (lest we forget--a defenseless nation under sanctions that was massacred by carpet-bombing) a 'foreign war' is simply to persue a larger justification of widening the 'occupation' to Syria and Iran.

The US authorities can't be that stupid to not do the basics to quell the popular resentment. If anything they are formenting it by their actions. Iraqis are NOT particularly 'religious' or fanatical (and sure as hell wouldn't blow themselves up out of loyality to Saddam...they WOULD under loyality to their country tho).

Iraqis are also educated and read much of the same US haliburton/corporate rip-offs on the Internet as we can...to us, 'fiscal outrage', to them, 'their nation'. Iraqis want a proud and strong regional presence and know that the changes being wrought will 'balkanize' them to the level of Bahrain or Kuwait.

The Shrubites see the long view and a few American lives are simply pawns to the larger 'program'...that is why they HAVE to get out NOW

[Beetwasher]

24. Yeah, I think the warmongers believe

that as long as casualties are kept under some magic level they could spin the war through propoganda...I don't believe they were so incompetent as to believe their own bullshit about a short war and an immediate peace...IOW, they were arrogant enought to believe they could completely control the information flow and the spin...

[Character Assassin]

22. Do you have any evidence to support that theory?

They are completely ignoring the third, most dangerous element; the true resistance fighters.

Can you offer anything that would take this out of the realm of simple conjecture?

The good people of Iraq who might have once joined this local police force now have many more reasons not to.

On NPR this morning, they actually reported that recruiting is way up, and they're having no problems filling positions.

This esentially means that any police force the US puts together in Iraq is going to be at best a worthless collection of chaotic, money, power hungry scum and at worst be moles actively working against the US.

No, it doesn't 'essentially' mean that in the least.

[Beetwasher]

23. If you know anything about human nature

then what I'm saying, while conjecture (I don't deny that), certainly makes sense.

"On NPR this morning, they actually reported that recruiting is way up, and they're having no problems filling positions."

OK, and how can we be sure that these numbers are accurate and that many of the recruits aren't resistance plants? Answer: we can't. The supposed increase in the number of recruits could just be more happy talk propoganda...Or do you think the admin. doesn't engage in that sort of thing? Maybe you believe it because NPR told you, but I don't.

"No, it doesn't 'essentially' mean that in the least."

Answer this: If the US were invaded, who would join the occupying powers police force? Would you?

Just a question of human nature...If you reject my arguments, fine. Unfortunately there is no way to accurately get any evidence to prove my assertions. The sources available are wholly unreliable, so all there is is conjecture really...But I'll take my understanding and observation of human nature over propoganda any day...How about you?

[Character Assassin]

26. I know all about human nature, thanks.

And there are other factors that are not being taken into account, it seems, like the mindset of the average Iraqi after decades of living under Saddam and how that might effect his/her viewpoint of the occupation forces and what they're doing.

OK, and how can we be sure that these numbers are accurate and that many of the recruits aren't resistance plants? Answer: we can't.

No is disputing that.

The supposed increase in the number of recruits could just be more happy talk propoganda...Or do you think the admin. doesn't engage in that sort of thing?

What I think is that your question is incredibly stupid.

Maybe you believe it because NPR told you, but I don't.

Again, it's all conjecture, and I, for one, and not willing to jump to firm conclusions without a shred of evidence, one way or the other. You seem quite willing to do so.

Answer this: If the US were invaded, who would join the occupying powers police force? Would you?

Answer this: on what rational basis can you compare the US now with pre-invasion Iraq?

Just a question of human nature...If you reject my arguments, fine. Unfortunately there is no way to accurately get any evidence to prove my assertions. The sources available are wholly unreliable, so all there is is conjecture really...But I'll take my understanding and observation of human nature over propoganda any day...How about you?

I'll take rational analysis, my understanding of human nature, employing all available data, not assuming that all sources are wholly unreliable (after all, if they were, we might not even have invaded Iraq after all, hmmm?) and divorce from political bias.

[Beetwasher]

27. What's stupid

is not realizing an obvious rhetorical question:

"...Or do you think the admin. doesn't engage in that sort of thing?"

What I think is that your question is incredibly stupid.

Or maybe you just like looking for opportunites to be insulting? Maybe you're picking a fight? :shrug: No need for that nonsense, we've had intelligent discussion before without resorting to insults...

"And there are other factors that are not being taken into account, it seems, like the mindset of the average Iraqi after decades of living under Saddam and how that might effect his/her viewpoint of the occupation forces and what they're doing."

Sure, there are lots of factors, like if your friends and family members having been killed by US bombs, shot accidentally at a checkpoing by US troops, or raped and robbed by roving gangs or if you're now starving or diseased...Yup, lot's of factors...Neither you nor I really know what it was really like in Iraq before or after the invasion, all we know is that now people are willing to blow themselves up to get Americans out. That's a powerful statment about how they feel.

"Again, it's all conjecture, and I, for one, and not willing to jump to firm conclusions without a shred of evidence, one way or the other. You seem quite willing to do so."

This is a discussion board, I'm throwing something out for discussion, we're discussing it...I'm willing to engage in thoughtful discussion of my assertions. If you think I'm jumping to firm conclusion all I can say is, whatever...This is what I think and believe based on my understanding of human nature and how I would react under similar circumstances and from what I do see coming out of Iraq...I see evidence of US troops dying daily at the hands of very pissed off people and now a steady stream of suicide attacks, they're not throwing flowers...That's the evidence that sways me, not the happy-talk coming from the admin. mouthpieces that contradicts the evidence of bodies flowing out of Iraq...

"Answer this: on what rational basis can you compare the US now with pre-invasion Iraq?"

Even though you didn't answer my question, I'll address yours, but then you have to answer mine. I'm NOT comparing the US w/ pre-invasion Iraq. I'm comparing human nature w/ human nature. Are the people in Iraq so different that they would react differently than you would if the US were invaded? It appears they aren't different. They're resisting and killing the invaders. Are you familiar w/ the history of the region? They ALWAYS resist the invaders...

"I'll take rational analysis, my understanding of human nature, employing all available data, not assuming that all sources are wholly unreliable (after all, if they were, we might not even have invaded Iraq after all, hmmm?) and divorce from political bias."

OK then, do that...What's you're conclusion? Is it the one that's being pushed by the admin, that the Iraqi's really love the US and it's only foreign fighters and Saddam loyalists blowing themselves up to get the US out? Sorry, I don't buy that...Do you honestly believe that there is NOT a true resistance element that is separate from these two groups? If so, why? Admin. happy-talk doesn't count as evidence, sorry...

Also, not sure what you mean buy this, you're use of double (triple?) negatives is confusing: "...not assuming that all sources are wholly unreliable (after all, if they were, we might not even have invaded Iraq after all, hmmm?)..." :shrug:

On edit: BTW, in my headline on my previous post perhaps I was unclear and you took it as an insult and that's why you felt the need to be insulting towards me. When I wrote If "you" know anything about human nature, I didn't mean YOU personally. To be more precise I probably should have wrot "If one knows anything about human nature..." or even "If I know anything about human nature...".

[maggrwaggr]

30. conjecture's good, but you're jumping to conclusions

there's a big difference.

[Beetwasher]

32. Conclusions

1. The local Iraqi police/security force is compromised by containing moles for the resistance and ruthless thugs

2. There is a third class of resistors made up of neither SH loyalists nor foreign fighters, but rather by pissed off Iraqi citizens who want the US out of their country and they are not being acknowledged by the admin

Not too big a leap to jump to those conclusions IMO. As a matter of fact, I would claim both those conclusions being a relative certainty and the difference is only a matter of degree...IOW, how many infilitrators of the police force and how big is this third group of unacknowledged resistors...

[maggrwaggr]

29. I have to disagree

You're not there. You don't know.

I'm not there either. So I don't know either.

But -- I can easily see where there would be Iraqis who are anxious to join the police force because they truly care about their neighborhoods and their communities.

They are realistic about the US occupation and they want to do whatever they can do to help their home make a smooth transition to local rule.

Ever think of that? Nooooooooo .....

Your prejudice is glaring.

[Beetwasher]

31. Sure, I've thought of that

and I'm sure there are some who maybe initially joined for that reason. Though I think now they're probably few and far between.

It's not prejudice. That's a silly way to put it. It's understanding human nature. Do you really think there is NOT a true resistance, separate from SH loyalists and foreign fighters? If you think one doesn't exist, I suggest you're naive.

Would you join the police force of an occupying power or would you resist? It's a simple question. What makes you think Iraqi's are so different?

[Dhalgren]

33. I agree with you, Beet, on most of this.

I think that there could be an honest, fair-minded Iraqi who would join the "police force" just for the money to support his family - but this fellow would be essencially a "mole" for any true resistance movement. Because he would be there without any hope of a way out of this mess, so he would tend to support the people of Iraq, and when they turn in large numbers against the US (and they may already have) then he will help them. I agree - human nature. For an Iraqi to "side" with the US would mean that that Iraqi was either an oppertunist or that he could see a "light at the end of the tunnel". Nobody - and I mean no body - can see any light at the end of any tunnel in Iraq; if they tell you they do, they are lying. So, yeah, Beet, I can see the point of your post. Good one.

[Beetwasher]

34. I agree

"I think that there could be an honest, fair-minded Iraqi who would join the "police force" just for the money to support his family -"

I'm sure there are people like this who have joined or are even considering joining, though I maintain it's becoming less and less likely that these people would be attracted to joining, especially now that police stations and the police are routinely being targeted...and the one's who already have joined, I would suspect are re-examining that decision and are becoming more likely to decide to be a mole...