Are you surprised that the DC Protest seems to have exacerbated...

[JanMichael]

Poll question: Are you surprised that the DC Protest seems to have exacerbated...

...the Far-Left, Left-Left, Center-Left, Center-Center, Center-Conservative and Center-Right differences here this time around?

I am.

PS~I don't recall such venom, animosity, waiting for DU activists once they returned after the March 15th Protests.

Was it the same and I'm just more sensitive to it now?

[bryant69]

1. It'll Blow over

People need to keep their eyes on the goal, which is removing President Bush from power and putting someone else in. And i think most people here, whatever their politics, realize that.

I don't mean to minimize the differences, as a Centrist Left guy, I know there are strong and sharp differences between me and most far leftists. And if the field only included people who think like me and people who think like them, we'd be political enemies. That's just the way it is.

But the reality is that the political playing field also includes President Bush and other even more radical conservatives (let's not forget how many on the right chastise President Bush for not being Conservative enough). And, like I said, I think most people here realize that.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[mmonk]

2. I agree

Defeating Bush requires focus.

[Armstead]

3. I voted for #3

I have mixed feelings about ANSWER's role. I don't have a problem with them pursuing their larger agenda -- some of which I agree with, some of which I disagree with.

However, I do have a problem with them being the lead group of an anti-war march, and then using it to propagandize that agenda. I'd rather see anti-war rallies be just that -- focused on the war, without a lot of otehr issues being pushed.

But I didn't go to DC, so I probably have no room to say anything.

[Atlant]

4. As far as I'm concerned, it's "the usual suspects".

I wasn't surprised to find that a lot of the loudest complaints
(apparently) came from people I already had on "ignore".

Atlant

[BurtWorm]

5. I wish this subject would be dropped.

It serves only to divide people into camps here. (As if choices for candidate weren't enough of a divider already!)

[mmonk]

6. I second that motion

[Zuni]

12. good point

we are all working to restore democracy to our country. Our enemies are Bushco, and he wins when we fight.

[KoKo]

7. I'm very surprised, I voted for #5. I wasn't aware how much DU had

changed that people who took time to go to these protests would be accused of supporting "Stalinists."

A big leap in my mind from "the way we were" when DU started through and until the "Candidate Wars" begun.

I didn't see it coming.

[Zuni]

10. The problem is that the ANSWER crowd

are stalinists, political extremists, Arabist radicals----in other words, FReepers of the left.
I have nothing in common with these people except a strong desire to see a different President in 2004.

[WoodrowFan]

15. freeper sof the left.

wouldn't that make them srepeerf? ;)

BTW, I agree with you.

[roughsatori]

18. If you were against the invasion of Iraq so were they (commonality #2)

And they were against it when our parties leaders, as a whole, lacked the guts to stand against and voted for the Patriot Act and IWR.

Though I disagree with much of ANSWER's agenda I give them credit for speaking out when even people I voted for where voting to take away our rights and giving Shrub the power to invade whoever and whenever he wanted. It strikes me as odd that some of us seem to hate ANSWER yet support candidates who voted for both the Patriot Act and IWR.

[info being]

19. I looked at their site, and I see nothing I disagree with

for example:

Bring the Troops Home
End the Occupation
Money for Jobs, Education & Healthcare, not War
Defend civil rights & civil liberties
Defeat the Patriot Act

Now that's a winning platform.

I don't know, what's the problem: http://www.internationalanswer.org/

I think you guys are being a bit reactionary.

[0rganism]

24. The problem stems from *one* member on the ANSWER board of directors

That one person is a member of a socialist political group that opposed certain American policies, historically. On this basis, ANSWER itself is judged.

[info being]

27. Well...if the "socialist" policies include...

education for all, healthcare, and a base-level safety net to eliminate homelessness...then call me a socialist. Better than seeing all my tax money spent on weapons.

[0rganism]

42. OK, I'll call you a socialist, nothing wrong with that

But you've got to remember, there are a lot of people in the Democratic party who think "socialist" is a dirty word, much like "liberal" is to republicans.

What I've found by associating with centrists on this board is that distinctions and differences blur the further one gets from one's natural political orientation. Go to a republican message board, and you'll see remarks made about all those "socialist demobrats". Now the Democratic party is not particularly socialist, but it's hard for these people to distinguish "liberal" from "socialist" from "moderate". Much easier to make a lumped generalization of anyone to the left of Mussolini as indistinguishably left/liberal/socialist.

Now the same can be said from my point of view. Sometimes, the republican and Democratic parties appear so similar on certain issues, that I fail to see any meaningful difference. E.g.,
* continued criminalizing marijuana
* cutting taxes
* invading Afghanistan
* "free" trade
* utility deregulation
* telecom deregulation
* destroying welfare
It's tempting for me to say, "the two major parties are two sides of the same coin", because from my position -- which is often opposed to BOTH dominant viewpoints -- they seem similar. But there really is a difference. It just shrinks with distance.

[info being]

50. The problem is

Too many people are concerned with labels as opposed to thought. If you don't understand something, go ahead and label it (falsly)...at least then you can pretend to.

[BurtWorm]

48. No, it's A.N.S.W.E.R.'s affiliation with the IAC and the WWP

From IAC's stirring defense of Slobodan Milosevic:

http://www.iacenter.org/yugo_milos8.html

Milosevic was president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (FRY) in 1999 when that country heroically attempted to resist the latest imperialist aggression in the region on behalf of big business. The FRY was the last remaining obstacle to total re-colonization of the Balkans.

The 78-day terror bombing unleashed against the FRY deliberately targeted not only the Yugoslav military but also bridges, life-sustaining infrastructure and civilians. Thousands perished in the high-tech pounding. Whole industries, hospitals, schools and other institutions vital to life were devastated. The Chinese Embassy was purposely attacked, as was Radio-TV Serbia and Novi Sad TV. All were occupied at the time.


Since 1991, when the Clinton White House and the U.S. Congress instigated civil war in the Balkans, tens of thousands have perished. Multi-national unity has been ripped apart for capitalist exploitation, neo-colonial plunder and NATO’s expansion east.

The U.S.-led NATO alliance now needs scapegoats and show trials to justify their murderous aggression on Yugoslavia. The Hague tribunal was established to deflect attention from the fact that Washington and its NATO allies are the real war criminals in the Balkans--not Slobodan Milosevic who, as the symbol of resistance, was first demonized and then abducted to stand trial.

[Atlant]

22. Apparently then, you would also consider me...

> The problem is that the ANSWER crowd are stalinists, political
> extremists, Arabist radicals----in other words, FReepers of the left.

Apparently then, you would also consider me a "stalinist, political
extremist, Arabist radical, a FReeper of the left" because, in the
time I spent ACTUALLY LISTENING to the speakers on Saturday (and that
extended from the very beginning to about two hours later when Ramsey
Clark started speaking), I didn't hear one speaker who put my nose
out of joint.

Did I hear speakers calling for us to honor Palestinian rights?
Damn straight!, and that's a concept I support (while I also support
Israel's right to continue existing).

Did I hear speakers calling for the deposing of George II, and citing
a vast littany of things he's done wrong? Damn straight!, and more
people ought to be more familiar with the laundry list of why he
is the worst leader we've ever had.

Would I march with all of these folks again? Damn straight!

Do I wish all of you were out there marching too? You bet. And some
day, you'll wish you'd been out there marching with us. But I'm
getting quite used to the fact that, with some notable exceptions
(and you all know who you are), DU is mostly a "talking shop", a
place to cause people to lose energy rather than gain it, and all the
anti-Protest threads (in the guise of anti-ANSWER threads) perfectly
exemplify that.

Atlant

[info being]

26. It would be interesting to start a free-speech section of DU

I think if the centrists had to actually debate (rather than using the ignore feature and whining to the mods) you'd see a major swing to the left at least in that section.

[WoodrowFan]

32. but then

the only person in this thread who has bragged about using the 'ignore' feature if one of the "lefties'

[Atlant]

33. If it were not for the "ignore" feature, I'd have left ages ago.

Yes, that was me.

I am so sick of reading centrist claptrap on this site that
if it weren't for the "ignore" feature, I'd have left months
ago. A lot of people here seem to be very much more interested
in sustatining the status quo that in actually moving in any
direction.

You don't like ANSWER. Fine. Get up off your <> and organize
the next demo. Show me that you'll get 100,000 people there
and I'll cometoo. But if you plan on having centrists Democrats
defending why they voted for the war, defending why the voted
to give Shrub more money, defending why the voted to approve
Shrub appeals curt justices, then count me out; I can go
to my local Republican Party for that kind of speechifying.

Until you organize this demo, don't slam what ANSWER and UFPJ
have accomplished.

Atlant

[info being]

51. Agreed.

Maybe I should use ignore as well to survive the mainstream, television-driven opinions of these people.

My point was that it would be interesting to have one section of the site where you can't censor and you can't ignore...that would get interesting. If you don't like it, fine, browse elsewhere.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

81. Thanks Atlant..great post

hope you can see this :evilgrin:

[Ardee]

109. My goodness

Common sense is often so out of place these days but it is good to read some ofit here and now. Thank you very much for those illuminating words.

The real pity is we will now get back to silly commentary from folks who are reacting to push button phrases and have never bothered to go to ANSWER's web site and learn the facts. I will march with anyone who seeks to oust Bush, bring home our troops and supports a peaceful solution to the Palestinian/Israeli situation.

[Atlant]

114. Thank you for your kind words; they're very much appreciated. (NT)

[piece sine]

29. ANSWER is no answer...

we have the numbers, they have a plan not of our making. I say: let's go it alone. They're nothing but trouble with a capital "tee." .

[jonnyblitz]

53. arabist radicals? that is a good one. call the victims of Zionist

fascism names. All those "furin" speakers with funny names up on stage sure make some nervous. but anyways how progressive of you. sometimes I think I wandered into the wrong discussion board.

[BurtWorm]

58. Does everyone on DU have to have exactly the same point of view

on every subject? Is one voice you disagree with intolerable to you?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

85. It is interesting one can use the term Arab radicals but when the

conversation shifts to Israeli extremists one gets called anti-semitic. (and remember I am Jewish and I find this peculiar)

[BurtWorm]

94. It was actually Arabist radicals, which is a weirder formulation

I don't even know what an Arabist radical is.

It seems to me it's much safer at DU than any other venue to criticize Israel and even Zionism without too much fear of being labeled anti-Semitic.

[Clark Can WIN]

252. Or would it make them superfleeps?

she's a super fleep - super fleep............. she's super fleepaaayyyy.........

Whaddaya do when you frown on communism but you rather enjoy the concept of peace?

[maha]

14. Be careful.

Many of us approve of the protest wholeheartedly but are trying to warn you to be careful about International ANSWER.

The parent organization of ANSWER, the Workers World Party, supports the Chinese occupation of Tibet, approved of the Tienanmen Square massacre, and thinks Slovodan Milosevic should be returned to power. And I am not making this up. It's all documented.

Some of us are concerned that ANSWER is using the anti-Iraq War movement only as a means to build up their political base in the U.S. Further, there is good reason to be concerned about tying opposition to U.S. policies in Iraq to extremist groups like ANSWER. This could come back to bite us, big time.

I know I get slammed for being a "Bush lover" whenever I say anything about ANSWER, but David Corn and Joe Conason, among others, have sent up some alarms, also.

Just be careful.

[Rich Hunt]

35. thank you, thank you, thank you

I'm normally classified as "far left" - NOT moderate.

It's not about the protest itself, the speakers, or who went to it.

The issue here is democratic coalition-building.

[ShaneGR]

46. Good post, here's what amazes me......

I would be considered very liberal. I am pro-choice. I am pro-labor. I am in favor of affirmative action. I'm not a big fan of the death penalty. I'm in agreement with the 2nd ammendment, though I feel assault weapons and military handguns (Tech 9 types) should be restricted. I am a big fan of Clinton, though I hate NAFTA. I believe government can serve an excellent purpose in terms of growth in education, infrastructure, and social programs. It should be properly funded. I was against invading Iraq (Although I'm not anti-war, only against wars for oil and conquest). I vote regularly, and I have never voted for a Republican... ever. In fact, I volunteer for campaigns regularly, am about to get my degree, and have a job offer in DC.


My point is, somehow I'm a centrist because I dislike an organization with ties to some very radical positions? I'm not a big fan of Mumia, he's a guilty cop killer. I don't support Communist oppression (China, Milosevic, North Korea). I'm not a believer that every single thing the US has ever done is wrong. Sure, there have been mistakes and screwups, but there has also been a tremendous amount of good. But does that make me a centrist? I don't think so.

[Zorra]

54. I'm pretty far

"left", and I share your concerns. I like the fact that ANSWER folks are protesting the war; any reasonable person would be against this war. But I do not think that ANSWER should be seen as the leaders of or "spokespersons" for the protest movement, or should be "allowed" to assume control of the movement, if they are indeed a Marxist organization, and not merely an anti-war group that contains among it's coalition Marxist groups. I am a Jeffersonian Democrat, and believe Marx had a few good ideas. But having studied Marxism fairly extensively, I have a lack of trust in the insidious standardized and historically precedented Marxist methodologies used in group manipulation.

For example:

Section II has made clear the relations of the Communists to the existing working-class parties, such as the Chartists in England and the Agrarian Reformers in America.

The Communists fight for the attainment of the immediate aims, for the enforcement of the momentary interests of the working class; but in the movement of the present, they also represent and take care of the future of that movement. In France, the Communists ally with the Social Democrats* against the conservative and radical bourgeoisie, reserving, however, the right to take up a critical position in regard to phases and illusions traditionally handed down from the Great Revolution.

In Switzerland, they support the Radicals, without losing sight of the fact that this party consists of antagonistic elements, partly of Democratic Socialists, in the French sense, partly of radical bourgeois.

In Poland, they support the party that insists on an agrarian revolution as the prime condition for national emancipation, that party which fomented the insurrection of Krakow in 1846.
-----snip-------
In short, the Communists everywhere support every revolutionary movement against the existing social and political order of things.

In all these movements, they bring to the front, as the leading question in each, the property question, no matter what its degree of development at the time.

Finally, they labor everywhere for the union and agreement of the democratic parties of all countries.

http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/manifesto.html#Position

BTW, maha, in your post a you mention that the WWP is the parent organization of ANSWER. Do you know of a link where I can absolutely prove this? I may have missed this info after reading most of the links in your blog, but I found nothing that definitely proves that WWP is the parent organization of ANSWER. But it is easily verifiable that ANSWER is endorsed by some Marxist/Communist groups.

Here is the ANSWER Coalition page:

http://www.internationalanswer.org/endorsers.html

[blm]

20. That's why I don't trust longtime centrists posing as populists.

They are doing it here on DU, too.

I understand compromise, and I am all for it when it's the ONLY hope for something better. But, the selfish Libertarian bent of some of the centrists wears thin.

[Tinoire]

60. They're not all even Centrists

Some of these people are outright trolls and I'm thrilled to see 2 of the most obnoxious ones got tomb-stoned this week-end even though they made it to 1000+.

Centrists are one thing but they're at least sincere. Conservative Democrats who can't decided if they're Conservative Democrats or Moderate Republicans are another (and how can you decide when they're exactly the same thing!). I'd rather put up with trolls to be perfectly honest.

[blm]

89. I mean the Libertarian leaning centrists.

I have a healthy skepticism for Libertarians and their motives which I deem selfish for the most part.

[BurtWorm]

31. Two sets of denial going on here.

On the one hand, people like myself who criticized A.N.S.W.E.R. have been in denial about what the meaning of the protests on Saturday were, to the movement at large (and I consider myself a part of it), and to individual DUers who participated, and whose participation we should appreciate. It was a mistake to criticize A.N.S.W.E.R. after the protest, when people couldn't do anything about it if they wanted to. A.N.S.W.E.R. should be commended for making the protest happen and for keeping the pressure on.

On the other, people who have defended A.N.S.W.E.R. are in denial about the right of anyone to criticize it. Criticism of A.N.S.W.E.R. is not a good measure of one's leftness. A.N.S.W.E.R. has obviously leftist positions on labor and imperialism; its positions on human rights in China and the Balkans, however, are not so straightforward--unless it is now officially "left" to side with the government of China against the Tienanmen Square protesters and with Milosevic over the Bosnians and Kosovars.

[G_j]

108. voted for #5 also

this place is getting less 'progressive friendly', there's no doubt about it. I find myself wondering if it's worth trying to support a progressive vibe here, or if it's just a waste of energy that could be put to better use.

[Zuni]

8. My main goal is beating Bush

I consider myself a liberal, but I do not get the far left/ANSWER/leninist crowd. I will not argue with them about beating Bush, but I have little or nothing in common with them. I think their views are misguided by communist nonsense(especially the neo-stalinist ANSWER Crowd) and they appear to me as FReepers of the left, with the same good/evil dogma, the same black and white worldview, just from the opposite side.
My main goal is beating Bush right now though, so I will not try to divide the anti-Bush forces, no matter what political stripe they come from.

[Misinformed01]

9. What frankly surprises me is

what whiny crybabies ALL the of the lefties are turning into...I don't mean the candidates, I mean the political junkies-

I personally wish we could have gone to the march, and I wouldn't give a cow's butt what anyone had to say about it.

I believe at least 10% of people are true jerks...that leaves DU with over 3,000 posters that I wouldn't like in person, or on the internet-furthermore, I am pretty sure they feel the exact same about me. No crying over spilled love on my part.

[Zorra]

11. To those who protested:

Thanks!:hug:

:yourock:

[Atlant]

34. You're welcome. And thank you for noticing. (NT)

[bearfartinthewoods]

13. you forgot a choice...as follows

no, i'm not surprised because we are six months closer to an election than we were during the previous marches.

[roughsatori]

16. DU is losing much of the progressive punch that use to draw me here

I loved coming to a site where I found people who I thought were even more left than I am. But in the last approximately 3 months it seems that some of our more progressive members are leaving or not posting as much and in their place I read posts by people who seem to despise the left wing members of the Democratic party more then they despise Republicans.

I think some of that is to be expected due to the fact that supporters of more centrist nominees are defensive. I see phrases such as: "These left wing nuts give my party a bad name," "the lunatic left," "hysterical left." I think that the word "purist" is used as an angry insult. Some members seem more angry that some people have strong ideals then they are that some of our candidates seem unsure of what theirs are.

I have been looking for another online community to frequent. One as well designed and user friendly as DU, but one more to the left--or at least a site where insulting left-wing Dems is not so frequent. I use to think that we had the best links and posts around to left-wing news. But lately there are so many links to middle-of-the-road corporatist media sites and even a belittling of left wing sources such as FAIR.

The irony of the new middle-of-the-road-ism here is defined for my by seeing posters with Martin Luther King avatars calling for the death penalty of a black man and a member with a cross avatar writing: "Jesus Christ, fuck you." (the last was a defense of Clark's voting record. LOL)

[info being]

23. I think its all the censorship here

If it isn't the mods, its the "ignore" feature.

Yes, I'm one of the ones who is "leaving and not posting so much" (I used to have a different moniker).

I'm looking for an alternative community as well, because too many here seem to buy into mainstream propaganda a bit too much. I haven't found that place yet.

[bearfartinthewoods]

153. as someone who doesn't use the "ignore" feature

i still am bewildered by people who seem to feel it's censorship??

:wtf:

freedom of speech means you get to say what you want. it doesn't compel people to listen to you.

and btw...the only thing the mods censor is personal attacks which are against the rules which are designed to keep us from tearing this board apart at the seams. how is that censorship of a political nature? i can express any opinion i want as long as don't call someone an asshole while doing so.

[Tinoire]

57. Do NOT under ANY circumstances leave DU my friend!

Those people came here in an organized, concerted effort to take over DU and shut up the Left. If you leave, they win.

Who built DU Roughsatori? It was people like you who made DU what it is, not this new brand of vanilla-voting Conservatives hell-bent on undoing all the progress we made in the last few years and taking the party to the Right.

You know where these people came from and who they are... They will go away as suddenly as they came but making a lot less noise this time because they are beginning to take a real wallopping on this board as more and more people get fed up with their shallowness and total lack of thought.

Hang in there! They have other boards to call home- the trouble is they want to over-take this board- don't let them! Keep up the good fight for peace and justice!

[WilliamPitt]

17. Someone clear something up for me

I went to the other ANSWER rallies, and came back to DU to find the same questions about that organization. The questions, imho, deserve to be asked. But at no time did attacks against ANSWER bounce towards good-hearted people who attended the rallies.

Is that different now? Are people here who attended the rallies get attacked? I'd like to see those threads.

[JanMichael]

28. Maybe I've been drinking too much lately but I don't remember...

...it being this bad last time.

"The questions, imho, deserve to be asked."

To a point. The problem is that the anti-Protest crowd are painting the whole protest with ANSWER contamination. They seem to forget United for Peace & Justice and the thousands of people who simply want American Imperialistic Wars done and gone, especially this one.

"But at no time did attacks against ANSWER bounce towards good-hearted people who attended the rallies."

Last time no. This time however it's been less focused on just the ANSWER people.

"Is that different now? Are people here who attended the rallies get attacked? I'd like to see those threads.'

Seems that way to me. Maybe it's just my perception though:shrug:

[Rich Hunt]

38. I'm not anti-protest

I didn't go to this one because of family obligations and financial restrictions - god forbid.

I've even gone to some of the ANSWER protests. I'm still critical of ANSWER.

This notion that protesters are being insulted is just nonsense. Since I've been to an ANSWER-sponsored rally myself, I guess I've just insulted myself.

And for god's sake - what is with all of these people acting as if they should get a trophy for spending several hours in a march? At the last DC gathering, I drove a van all night both ways, two nights in a row, but I didn't expect everyone to applaud and thank me. That is NOT why you show up to a protest. I was glad to do it. It's just marching, for crying out loud.

[BurtWorm]

44. I think you're exaggerating.

I think the protesters have taken personally what wasn't meant to be directed at them.

[JanMichael]

52. About my drinking? Hardly.

And while I may be somewhat mis-taken (I don't believe I am BTW, so we'll just have to agree to not agree on this, k'?), it's the way I see it, so it's not "exaggerating" it's a POV.

[BurtWorm]

55. I guess I was trying not to say you're wrong.

But I do think you're wrong. I felt attacked for criticizing A.N.S.W.E.R. If I there has been an intolerance for dissent, it's been coming from both sides.

[bearfartinthewoods]

37. i can't show you the thread but offer a synopsis

someone found something on the answer website that fully backed the 'iraqi resistance'. that started it.

some people stood up for answer's position and other took offense at people standing up for answer in that full support would included support for attacks on US service people and civilians as well as UN and Red Cross people.

this is the new wrinkle....

[Q]

104. The NeoDems interpreted supporting the 'Iraqi resistance'...

...as condoning the killing of American troops. It was all implied...without any sign of supporting evidence. That's why I called it a witch hunt.

- We're living in a country where the government uses fear and intimidation to keep the masses under control. Literally NO ONE else in this country was attempting to put together such a massive demonstration. I'm glad someone had the guts to do it.

- As a 'protestor' during the Vietnam war...the same types of stories circulated in the media and political circles about 'commies' infiltrating the demostrations. During that time...it was more likely that FBI agents were the ones doing the infiltrating.

- No administration likes demonstrations...especially when thousands show up to actually use their amendment rights. Nixon and Reagan stand out as two presidents that absolutely hated protestors. They thought of them as dirty hippies, extremists and commies...and encouraged the use of violence against them.

- Side note: I have no doubt that DU has been 'infiltrated' by RWingers...who bust their asses to get to a thousand posts so they can blend in with the scenery before they begin in earnest to spread neocon propaganda and misinformation. The other 'liberal haters' are represented by the DLC types and are little more than conservative republicans pretending to be 'progressive'. They probably post here instead of FReeperVille because it's more interesting here.

[diamond14]

105. this synopsis holds no water....a COMPLETE synopsis is enclosed

to help others on this board understand how this is working....IMO, which directly contradicts your opinion of 'just a little pamplet started it'....it was started by a group of people, all together now...

and it's not a 'new wrinkle', as you suggest...
I remember all you had to say when I was hit by a police car too...


-----------------------------------------------------------

from DU posts

American Patriots, anti-war protestors, returning from the DC-anti-war protests (10/25/03) were called:

communists, extreme Marxists, wacko Stalinists, radical leftists,
un-American, BIZARRE people, radical socialists, extremists, hysterical whacko extremist hippies, cop-killers, killers of American troops, pro-North Korea activists, apparently crazed, fanatic people, monsters, Jew-haters, screaming 'foreign born speakers', freak show, sectarian leftists, rabid, ugly, toxic and more...

here's one titled: ANSWER,Clark, Stalinism,Fascism,& the red/brown syndrome
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=592505&mesg_id=592505

and another titled: So I notice LOTS of hate spewed towards A.N.S.W.E.R., does that mean
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=598728&mesg_id=598728

and another titled: I knew ANSWER was out there, but this is beyond the pale.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=598599&mesg_id=598599

and this subtle display of racism and bigotry to start a DU thread, titled:
This DC rally is the most bizarre event I have ever witnessed
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=589807&mesg_id=589807

[bearfartinthewoods]

147. are you talking to me?

i never used the phrase 'just a little pamplet started it'
and Will asked what was new or different about this post march period than previous ones and imho, the new wrinkle was the statement of full support.

and if course, the other added wrinkle that anyone who has a any problem with AMSWER is allegedly fomenting the shooting of protestors or some such wacked-out hysterical rhetoric :wtf:

BTW...since you brought it up, how's that case going anyway? it's been months and we have heard nothing? why in the world haven't you persued this? i remember you saying that there was an indymedia reporter with you when the cop tried to kill you repeatedly. i know we were all surprised to see no mention of such a horrible attack in any of the indymedia reports from that day but surely your friends will back up your story?

it has been some time but it isn't too late. in fact, with the recent bad press that ashcroft has been getting this would be a great tie in. such abuse should not go unreported!!!! this cop should not be unpunished. there are probably people right here at DU that are ready to jump start this as soon as you .... i forget, what were you waiting for? was it a police report? it's been six months? that should be ready by now.

[G_j]

123. wow

That's not what what said at all :shrug:

[diamond14]

133. can you see it now? it's always the same approach and it

started right after the January 18, 2003 March in DC....that was when the reTHUGlicans realized that they had to do something, perceiving Patriotic protestors, regular Americans, as a real threat...

and it's very subtle...repeat, repeat, repeat

....and it works...

[G_j]

136. I've heard it before

the same stink was made about SDS and others organizers of the Viet Nam demonstrations. Good thing we didn't listen to them.

[bearfartinthewoods]

154. the problem was America didn't listen to us for a loooong time

during the Vietnam protests because of the ties to socialists and marxists and communists in the anti-war movement. for a long time, we were easily dismissed as a bunch of commie hippies. the current movement runs the same risk.
just consider, for a second.....if ANSWER is such a divisive force here at DU, how will it play with joe and jane sixpack?

[G_j]

162. I was 17

when I attended my first anti-war protest. A friend and I hitched from Maine to DC. The people I knew were aware of SDS etc. but the protests were simply a collective show of outrage against American policy in Viet Nam. There was no feeling we got from being there that any kind of Socialist or Communist agenda was being advocated by the masses. It was about war and peace. The other demos I attended then were the same. I got to meet Eugene McCarthy who was clearly not a socialist.

If the RWers of the time spun our marches as a buch of commies in the streets that was to be expected. There is no way that could have been prevented. I have never regretted exercising the democtatic tradition of free speech and dissent, just as I don't now. It was and is effective. We can't taylor our actions based on what names we will be called by desperate people.

I think it's time though that we deal with the ANSWER controversey so we can move on.
I am a believer in the "spokes council" model of dicision making which has evolved within the Global Justice movement. The ANSWER organization is a bit too top-down hierarchical for my taste. Still just as in the sixties, I am happy someone got the permits so we could have a voice in the streets of DC. This outweighs the other problems for me given the situation.

Suggestion: Join UNFPJ which has in it's coalition hundreds of groups from the National Council of Churches to Code Pink. Become involved at the grass roots level and make things happen and not depend on ANSWER to do the leg work. This would no doubt be more constructive than going round and round about problems with ANSWER.
No doubt UFPJ is too radical for some, but these aren't the people who will demonstrate in the streets anyway.

[bearfartinthewoods]

177. she-bear dragged me to my first protest

and i do mean dragged because i was NOT political but i was in love and would have followed her anywhere. as soon as we got free of HS we lived in tents and in vans and traveled from one college to another to organize and fill buses and vans. that's what we did for the next 2 years or so. i was never "management" or even middle management although she-bear was sort of skirt the power ring.

just as is the case today, few of the kids or the old ladies that we packed onto the buses were communists or anything other than fed up with the killing. but, there were a lot of people in the movement with strong socialist ties. the media didn't have to spin much to make that connection. imho, it hurt the movement in general. it diminished the message. it's a shame that the average joe and jane are so hard to organize.

i feel like an old fart, talking about 'back in the day' but the problems were the same. she-bear may kick my ass for saying this but
if you ever met her, you'd understand what i'm saying. the main reason we had so much success at filling buses was her. ok...so she's a knock out but she had/has this really compelling way of dealing with people. it's as if she bears her soul whenever she speaks. i swear, all she needed to do was talk for ten minutes and people were standing in line to sign up. i'm not very good at people to people stuff. if it were up to my skills, we'd still be at war in vietnam.

i like the idea broached here at DU about using a concert or such as the hook. it worked well for us. not only did we get truely massive numbers for any weekend when music was the draw, people got informed and involved and that made a big difference.

[charlie]

There's the rub

Whether the connections to unsavory or unpopular groups are there or not, establishment media will find them. Incidents of violence, intemperate speeches, inane street theatre -- those are the sorts of things they love to broadcast. Being untainted by association with groups that vex Middle America won't stop interests that want to marginalize popular protest. If nothing else, they'll float agents provocateur for nice vandalism and riot footage. I don't think it's possible to be "clean" enough for good press.

BTW, nice homage to your missus, she sounds wonderful.

[Name removed]

191. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bearfartinthewoods]

195. what little remark?

oh... you mean my sig line? i have 'sigs disabled' so i forget it's there. yes, after my stroke, the 'file' name spelling.exe got corrupted. i'm waiting for defrag and diskscan to fix it but it doesn't seem to be working.

you are very fortunate not to have sufferred any neurological damage when that cop tried to murder you.

or perhaps i'm assuming too much? if so, you have my sympathy.

[diamond14]

209. "kids or the old ladies that we packed onto the buses" for

the Vietnam protests....

amazing really...because I don't remember any 'kids or the old ladies' at the Vietnam protests, or charter buses either....it was students protesting against the war, students who walked out of their college dorm rooms without the need for charter buses...

but your post makes such a great story of 'empathy'...nice disguise...

[bearfartinthewoods]

213. well the "kids" i referred to were my age

my age, back then i should say. i was just a kid too.

and i should be whomped for calling the women old ladies. they were probably not much older than i am now but back then they seemed really really old. actually, and not to their faces of course, but we called them and their older sisters "the blue hairs" because so many of them put this blue rinse on their hair 'to cover the yellow" sometimes it was actually purple.

and as for their being no need for buses, we brought people from all over PA and lower NY to DC. it took a little more for them to get there than just walk out of their dorm rooms. sort of like the buses
that people use now?

[Name removed]

219. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bearfartinthewoods]

223. it's not going to work

you can scream freeper freeper freeper all you want and you are still not going to get me to endorse or support ANSWER.

they stand for things that i don't stand for.

they demand things of me that i am not willing to do.

they champion causes that i think are bullshit.

so you can post here all day long, call me freeper from here until the war actually ends and it isn't going to change my mind or stop me from saying that the current anti-war movement is going to suffer from any alliance with marxists and stalinists.

[Tinoire]

233. It might suffer... but it shouldn't - They're all being smeared

United for Peace and Justice is getting smeared the same way. It's an unavoidable smear because only Godless Communists are against war and apple-pie. It's going to be the same accusations no matter what we do...

Check this out:

The Next "Peace" Protest Will Be Brought to You By a Castro Groupie
By John Perazzo
FrontPageMagazine.com | February 11, 2003


On February 15, many thousands of protesters will assemble within sight of the United Nations building in New York to express their opposition to a war in Iraq. Their efforts will be duplicated in some 300 additional cities throughout North America, Latin America, Europe, Africa, Asia, and the Middle East. This will be the first such protest not organized by the Workers World Party (WWP), an energetic Marxist-Leninist organization that openly supports Kim Jong Il’s brutal dictatorship in North Korea. Instead, it will be run by a group called United For Peace and Justice (UFPJ), whose co-chair Leslie Cagan is an enthusiastic, longtime supporter of yet another Communist despot, Fidel Castro.

Given the manner in which the major media report the contemporary "peace" movement’s activities, the average American would never suspect that it is in fact a movement dominated the selfsame Communists that once marched in support of Stalin, Mao, the Vietcong, the Sandinista Marxists, and the Communist guerrillas in El Salvador; the same America-loathing radicals who, because they passionately deem America the root of all evil in the world, now support Kim and Castro.

A featured speaker at last month’s massive "peace" rally in Washington, for instance, angrily denounced the "American imperialism" supposedly underlying our country’s "war against the people of Iraq, and the people of Palestine, Colombia, and the world." And he had plenty of company; there was nary a word uttered about any threat posed by Saddam Hussein – let alone the Palestinian suicide bombers or the communist guerrillas in Colombia. In the eyes of such "anti-war" orators and their enthusiastic audiences, America is always the problem, regardless of the setting or the time.

<snip>

Consider the aforementioned Leslie Cagan. She is a socialist and longtime activist who, during the past thirty years, has mobilized millions of demonstrators in rallies denouncing our nation’s foreign policies; its military-related spending; and its purportedly virulent racism, sexism, and homophobia. She is a die-hard, pro-Communist radical who proudly aligns her politics with those of Communist Cuba.

<snip>
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=6024

[bearfartinthewoods]

239. what was the line about organizing dems?

something about herding cats?

we're doomed if we align with the 'commies' and too inept to organize ouselves.

well, now i'm really depressed.

[Tinoire]

241. That's about the extent of it

Which is why I just don't care... My purpose is to get out on the streets and show Bush and the world that we are not behind him.

Anti-American sentiment was so high in Europe because, as stupid as it sounds, too many Europeans bought the myth that we were behind Bush.

Our strength is in numbers...

If we have to band together as Conservative Dems, Reagan Democrats, Liberals, Centrists, Greens, Independents and Progressives to get Bush out of office then how more critical is it that we band together to stop this war?

They are going to go to extremes to paint antiwar organizations & protestors in a bad light... Take heart! It means we're effective and a threat to them! ;)

[diamond14]

234. nobody here called you a 'freeper'...maybe you just perceive

'freeper' 'freeper ' 'freeper' ghosting through your mind...

....there were two different posters (not me) who mentioned you and FR together in the same post, but didn't call you a 'freeper'...so, you are just imagining the 'freeper' label...

[Name removed]

240. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[diamond14]

242. nobody called you a 'freeper' & nobody made fun of your stroke

it's all in your imagination....

such slander is really disgusting....

prove your accusations: post all messages where anyone called you a 'freeper' or made fun of your stroke....

BTW, there two people (not me) who mentioned you and FR in the same post...but mentioning YOU and FR in the same post is not the same as calling you a "freeper"....if you go read those posts, you'll know that you were not called a 'freeper' and it is all in your mind.

[bearfartinthewoods]

243. well, that would be pretty hard to do now

since the posts have been deleted wouldn't it?

and a person doesn't actually have to come out and accuse someone of being a freeper to violate the rules and get a post pulled.

to quote from the rules:

Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, troll, conservative, Republican, or FReeper. Do not try to come up with cute ways of skirting around the spirit of this rule. If you think someone is a disruptor, click the "Alert" link below their post so the moderators can deal with it. Unfortunately, it has become all too common for members of this message board to label anyone with a slightly different point of view as a disruptor. We disapprove of this behavior because its intent is to stifle discussion, enforce a particular "party line," and pre-emptively label a particular point of view as inappropriate or unwelcome. This makes thoughtful and open debate virtually impossible.

another passage from the rules that seems appropriate

"The attack is clearly intended to smear, insult, or otherwise attack. If an attack is obviously intended to be malicious, then it will be removed"

maybe 'making fun' was a poor choice of words. when you referred to me as brain damaged and impared because of a stroke, how would you describe that? but, of course, now that the posts have been pulled i can't meet your challenge can i?

[diamond14]

246. if there are no posts, then why think you were called a 'freeper'

it's just not there...it's all in your imagination...

and, I have never called you 'brain-damaged" and I have never called you 'impaired because of a stroke'....only you know if that is your medical condition....

[bearfartinthewoods]

249. yeah...right

it's all in my mind. all your deleted posts are in my imagination too i suppose.,< /sarcasm>

also in my mind is the knowledge that you seem more interested in attacking me than in discussing the issue so i'll offer you some reading material and bid you good nite.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html#civility

[diamond14]

254. no one here is 'attacking you'...there are only discussions here

there are no attacks...

why do you suppose that 'deleted' posts are mine ?

that assumption has no basis, since I am very polite on this board.

[Tinoire]

231. Oh lol Amen! I do!

My grandmother took me to my first Vietnam protest when I was 10- she was 70 at the time... My secular school later took us to a couple and I remember my sisters' classes going with the nuns from their school (who I viewed as rather old at the time but I think that was just me).

This was in Baltimore... Very progressive schools... Not sure what happened in the rest of the country though.

[bearfartinthewoods]

247. lol...i remember one time

we filled most of a bus with college student "hippie types" and topped it off with a bunch of nuns from a convent in the next town south. what a mixed bag we were...tie dye in the back and habits in the front...what a strange journey!! the uns were actually pretty cool, though i do think the many of the 'kids' were a bit freaked out.

she-bear kept in contact with one of them for many years because ofa shared interest in kalidascopes of all things. somehow the thought of a nun with a collection of kalidescopes always makes me grin.

[Tinoire]

250. Do you have photos???

You should share those with us! You know... I think it's really time we established a more accessible gallery for photo collections!

Think of all the priceless photos in the archives and NO ONE knows what's in there anymore!

I would love to see those!

Remember the MIA bracelets? How horrible... I used to love mine... Have no idea what happened to it because I was only 11 but wow I'd love to have it again...

Peace

[bearfartinthewoods]

251. nope...no photos anymore

first, paranoia ran deep and anyone on the bus that sseemed interested in taking people's pictures was viewed with suspicion....immagine that? :grin: it was as mucha fear about the drugs as the protests.

and if we ever had a camera, we probably sold it . there are pictures out there though and i still hope to connect with the people who have them.

that's the reason i choose bearfarts as a nic. a bunch of ustook the name after being kicked out of a coffee shop for smelling bad. one does start to stink after a couple days sans a shower.

i hope someday, some of our friends from 'the day' will find this place. if they do, they will recognize bearfarts in an instant and maybe then i can add some history pics to the gallery.

[Tinoire]

256. About the suspicion- I wouldn't call that pure paranoia

The CIA had people infiltrating all the movements at that time as I am sure they are doing now. I'm sure we have over a dozen of them right here at DU.

That's a funny story about your moniker! Lol... I never had that same pleasure except under horrid military circumstances and oh -yeah- what a horrible stench. May I never, ever smell it again! Or smell like that again myself! YUCK!

Peace lol

[Tinoire]

212. She sounds like a terrific lady. I hope we get to meet her one day

and you too.

Peace

[bearfartinthewoods]

235. are you on the east coast?

we almost went to the philly gatherig or rather we were going to until it was moved indoors.

maybe next year.

[Kolesar]

187. Go around A.N.S.W.E.R.

They have organized at least three rallies in DC that I recall. It is time for somebody else to get the permits and organize the rallies.

A.N.S.W.E.R. has been effective because they are experienced at organizing rallies and have a very disciplined, hierarchical organization that gets the job done. With millions of Americans extremely mad about this war, I am sure that a rally could be organized without them.

This all presumes that rallies are the most effective organizing tool. I plan to do work on the 2004 election myself (I am yet making plans).

[G_j]

227. I need to add

I have no problem with people who consider themselves socialists. I'm not one myself, I pretty much avoid 'isms' all together. But it's time people stop casting socialists as some kind of evil cult. In truth they believe for the most part that they are looking for a system that is fair and just for every member of society, and that is admirable. I don't believe the American Constitution explicitly endorces the kind of Capitalism we presently see either! I'm really tired of hearing the right wingnuts use the "Socialist" tag to cast any attempt at helping the weakest and most powerless people in our society as somehow anti-American. It's even worse when so called progressives use the "S word" as negative label. Socialism is not inately anti-American and I think it's time we 'liberals' who don't consider ourselves socialists per say, resist the slandering of fellow leftists who do. Reagan started the "L word" slandering of liberals and that was bullshit also. I hate it when we pander to that RW garbage.

[bearfartinthewoods]

238. i hear and agree for the most part

we have icluded many socialist programs into the fabric of our society. socialists have an equal opportunityto organize and participate but realisticly speaking, we have a generation or two who were raised during the cold war and the word socialist sticks in their throat and not all of them are RW either.

it's hard to get around that.

[bearfartinthewoods]

148. post it..

i don't have the link. what did it say? i don't back answer and i don't add clicks to their website. i was reporting my impression of the gist of the discord. if it didn't say they offered full support to the iraqi 'resistance' what did it say?

[G_j]

151. maybe we aren't talking about the same thing

I thought you were refering to this thread,

This DC rally is the most bizarre event I have ever witnessed
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=589807&mesg_id=589807

It sounds like you're talking about something at FR?

[bearfartinthewoods]

163. well your thinking was incorrect

it was this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=598599

but i was wrong too. i used the phrase 'full support' in my snyopsis when the actually phrase seems to have been "unconditional support"

Salon.com:

"According to an ANSWER pamphlet, 'Counter-revolution & Resistance in Iraq,' 'The anti-war movement here and around the world must give its unconditional support to the Iraqi anti-colonial resistance.

unconditional

Main Entry: un·con·di·tion·al
Pronunciation: "&n-k&n-'dish-n&l, -'di-sh&-n&l
Function: adjective
Date: 1666
1 : not conditional or limited : ABSOLUTE, UNQUALIFIED

definition posted for the sake of clarity

since recent attacks on even the freaking red cross and UN have the "unconditional support" of ANSWER, ANSWER doesn't have my support.
and that doesn't make me a freeper despite these desperate attempts to shut down any discussion of ANSWERS's alliances and motives with the McCarthy-esque screams of freeper freeper freeper.

try dealing with ANSWER's position instead of attacking it's critics.

on edit...i meant to hit preview, not post.

if you read that statement, it really does demand (as indicated by the word must)that the antiwar movement support the attacks on the UN and Red Cross. if/when the right wing media gets ahold of that....

the anti-war movement should not be allied with some org that calls
for unconditional support of the iraqis that are blowing up and attacking other iraqis, the UN, and the red cross. not to mention the American troops.

[BurtWorm]

39. That's a very good question.

I criticized A.N.S.W.E.R. yesterday and had some run-ins with some of the protesters for it. My involvement began when I responded to a protester accusing critics of A.N.S.W.E.R. of contributing to the climate that would create a new Kent State. In other words, if there are attacks on protesters, it's a two-way street.

[diamond14]

101. wrong, and it was me that brought up the conditions for a Kent State

it has nothing to do with ANSWER, it has to do with fueling an idea that protestors 'deserve it'...that protestors are so 'different than regular Americans'...that protestors are 'communists', as nixon said, and other names as shown below... and then the conditions are there for a Kent State...for Americans feel that it's OK to take police actions, and YOU claimed that protestors are not being attacked at all...the protestors were surrounded on Saturday Oct. 25 by heavily armed police, with guns, clubs, baseball bats, big mace cans, from at least three police forces (DC, National Park Police, FBI), on horses, cars, motorcycles and police wagons, and there were snipers on roofs...


from DU posts

American Patriots, anti-war protestors, returning from the DC-anti-war protests (10/25/03) were called:

communists, extreme Marxists, wacko Stalinists, radical leftists,
un-American, BIZARRE people, radical socialists, extremists, hysterical whacko extremist hippies, cop-killers, killers of American troops, pro-North Korea activists, apparently crazed, fanatic people, monsters, Jew-haters, screaming 'foreign born speakers', freak show, sectarian leftists, rabid, ugly, toxic and more...

here's one titled: ANSWER,Clark, Stalinism,Fascism,& the red/brown syndrome
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=592505&mesg_id=592505

and another titled: So I notice LOTS of hate spewed towards A.N.S.W.E.R., does that mean
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=598728&mesg_id=598728

and another titled: I knew ANSWER was out there, but this is beyond the pale.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=598599&mesg_id=598599

and this subtle display of racism and bigotry to start a DU thread, titled:
This DC rally is the most bizarre event I have ever witnessed
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=589807&mesg_id=589807

[BurtWorm]

175. Well I'm opposed to fueling the idea that protesters "deserve it."

So we have no disagreement.

Peace!

[diamond14]

200. in Germany, it was important to fuel a hatred of the Jews, based on

pushing the idea that those German Citizens were 'different' from other German Citizens....the idea that they had "groups' that were damaging to the 'normal' Germans themselves...that the Jews were obviously bizarre, dangerous, horrible, nasty, liars...and lots of the same words flug at the returning DC-anti-war protestors....


a very very important aspect to this 'smearing of the anti-war protestors' is this:

those who care about Americans and OUR Nation will stand up to those attacking the anti-war protestors...such attacks of intolerance, racial hatred, and bigotry are certainly reprehensible....

and just like a gang of bullies, now, many others feel comfortable joining in the attacks...ANSWER is PEOPLE, real people, normal caring community people, regular Americans just like you and I...and it critically important to try and stop the attacks here on DU...

because these 'oh, we're just against ANSWER, so it's OK to sling racial hatred, or 'oh, we're not attacking people, we're just attacking an organization/group (they are NOT people) is the same excuse used by the Germans under Hilter, used to kill students at Kent State, used to justify slavery, and beat Civil Rights workers...and it can be stopped here if you and others decide to stop it...

[BurtWorm]

201. I've already stopped it.

In case you weren't paying attention. Now please stop pointing your finger at me. Maybe it's time to return our focus to stopping the war? That's where I want to focus.

[diamond14]

203. Thank-you, BurtWorm....you're one of the few, and you made the

absolutely right and honorable decision....

sadly, though, you'll find out now, that once the hate and bigotry gets started, it is very hard to stop...I hope you will encourage others to stop flinging their hate/bigotry/racism at ANSWER (which are PEOPLE) and PEOPLE who were brave enough stand up to bush* at the DC anti-war protests...

I greatly admire that you have stopped, and I'm sorry that I didn't notice it, and I promise not to point my finger at you.

To stop the war, we do need to stop the hate being flung at the anti-war protestors here...IMO, it is being done deliberately (by reTHUGlicans) to stop the only organization able to put together BIG protests....also, racial hate/bigotry is a BIG part of the war, on many levels...that's why the anti-war protests are not just addressing the single issue WAR, but all of the conditions that create WARS....if any of the other issues can be solved, it will break the cycles that create WAR...

[BurtWorm]

205. Thank you, amen1234!

Let's focus on stopping the war and getting the Bushists out of power.

[bearfartinthewoods]

207. now this is really funny.....

if a poster spend a day and a half accusing people who disagree with her or him with being "them" and part of "that group" and "reTHUGlicians" then turns around an lectures on the danger of the german practice of labeling the jews as "them" and "that group", is it okay if i ROTFLMAO?

[diamond14]

210. no, the German killing of Jews is NOT funny....nobody laughed

that I know, but your group is different...

[Tinoire]

59. You must have missed the posts where people who marched

were accused of being terrorist supporters because ANSWER supports suicide bombers and works with groups that are killing our soldiers.

Comb through them. They're all from Saturday and Sunday and were very bad. Never did I see such viciousness at DU before. In the past, the only accusations against ANSWER was that they were anti-Semitic and those were easily addressed thanks to the support of all the Jewish Peace Groups present.

It was totally over the line this time.

[bearfartinthewoods]

179. i think the problem was more that ANSWER demands that the anti-war

movement support the suicide bombers and that some people didn't feel they could denouce that demand? i mean if the marchers, and i'm assuming here, do not agree that the anti-war movement must offer 'unconditional support' to the people attacking the UN and red cross, they should say so, right?

if they do agree with ANSWER, then i'm shocked.

[Tinoire]

208. Here- you can read the entire document

Nowhere are suicide bombers or killing US soldiers mentioned. Nowhere... simply a request that we support the Iraqi people's just resistance to colonialization. I am totally, unequivocally against our colonialization of other peoples. If US soldiers, a tool of colonialization, are killed as people resist, it is not the fault of the antiwar movement or of the organization organizing that antiwar movement- it is the fault of those who sent them on that dirty mission and of those who are excusing/encouraging their presence there.

I say this as an ex-soldier with close friends over there. And it's kind of funny, but I'm not so sure it was the Iraqi resistance attacking the UN headquarters or even the Red Cross. The group I absolutely refuse to give any support to, let alone unconditional support, is the Bush Imperial Cabal and that puts me squarely in ANSWER's corner. It is unfortunate if any US soldiers are killed in the battle but hey, that is the nature of serving in the Armed Forces of an invading country- people rightfully resist your invasion. I do NOT support the war or the occupation. I support the right of people to resist it and if singing Kumbaya doesn't get Bush's attention then you can't blame the IAC if the Iraqis are forced to go to "by any means necessary" to get Middle America awake enough to "just say NO". I personally don't think Kumbaya is going to do it since people are such cement heads who only think that American blood is worth anything. It all flows red and I won't value one above the other.



They called me 'a teacher, a fomentor of violence.' I would say point blank, 'That is a lie. I'm not for wanton violence, I'm for justice. I feel that if white people were attacked by Negroes-if the forces of law prove unable, or inadequate, or reluctant to protect those whites from those Negroes-then those white people should protect and defend themselves from those Negroes, using arms if necessary. And I feel that when the law fails to protect Negroes from whites' attack then those Negroes should use arms, if necessary, to defend themselves.'...'I am speaking against and my fight is against white racists. I firmly believe that Negroes have the right to fight against these racists, by any means that are necessary.' from The Autobiography of Malcolm X, pgs. 373-374.

=====

The pamphlet is authored by the following man, a red-blooded American:
A Biography of Richard Becker

Richard Becker is the Western Region Co-Director of the International Action Center (IAC), which was founded in the aftermath of the Gulf War. Becker was a leading activist in the movement against the Gulf War in the Bay Area, and an organizer of the January 19, 1991 march of 200,000 in San Francisco. Following the war, he helped coordinate the International War Crimes Tribunal. The Tribunal held hearings in 20 countries and 30 U.S. cities on war crimes, crimes against humanity, and crimes against peace committed by the U.S. government before, during, and after the Gulf War.

In January 2000, Becker was co-leader of the third Iraq Sanctions Challenge, made up of 51 people from five countries which delivered life-saving medicines valued at more than $2 million to Iraq. Becker first traveled to Iraq in February, 1994 with an IAC fact-finding delegation headed by Ramsey Clark on the third anniversary of the war, and represented the IAC at an international meeting to oppose the sanctions on Iraq, in Baghdad. Upon return, he was co-producer of the video: "Blockade: The Silent War Against Iraq," documenting the catastrophic effects of the U.N. sanctions on Iraq. Becker co-authored The Children Are Dying, a book published by the IAC (1996) documenting the effects of sanctions on the Iraqi people, and was also a contributing author of the book, Challenge to Genocide: Let Iraq Live (1999) which documented the movement against the U.S. war and sanctions in Iraq. Becker was co-producer of the award-winning video, "Genocide by Sanctions" (1998).

Becker led an IAC fact-finding delegation to Palestine in October-November, 2000, delivering medicine to Palestinian hospital and bringing back an eyewitness report on conditions in the occupied territories. His eyewitness accounts of Israeli rocket and tank attacks on Palestinian residential areas and unarmed demonstrators were carried by may U.S. media. From 1984-90, Becker served on the National Board of the Palestine Solidarity Committee, and was part of a fact-finding delegation to Jordan, Syria and the occupied West Bank and Gaza. In 1988, he traveled to Athens, Greece to be an international observer on the Al-Awda Ship of Return, carrying illegally expelled Palestinians back to their homeland. The ship was destroyed by explosives before sailing. Becker frequently writes and speaks on the subject of Palestine, Israel, and U.S. policy in the Middle East.

In 1992, Becker helped to initiate the international Peace for Cuba Appeal (IPCA), which launched an international campaign to end the U.S. blockade of Cuba and normalize relations between the two countries. IPCA held mass rallies in New York and San Francisco the same year, the largest ever held in this country against the blockage. IPCA has since organized many demonstrations, forums and other activities calling for an end to U.S. hostility toward Cuba, and has sent more than $5 million in medical aid to the island nation. Since its beginning in 1992, Becker has been active in the U.S.- Cuba Friendshipment Caravans organized by Pastors for Peace.

Becker is co-author of the IAC book, NATO in the Balkans (1998) and was a founder of the Emergency Mobilization to Stop the War (1999). He spoke at many teach-ins, forums and other events on the 1999 U.S./NATO war in Yugoslavia.

Becker has represented the IAC at many national and international events. Among these were the Gensuikin annual conference commemorating the Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bombings in Japan in 1991, and the Fete L'Humanite in Paris, Francis in 1993. In August 1995, Becker attended and was a founding member of the International Commission of Inquiry on Economic Sanctions in London. The Commission issued an International Appeal to End the Sanctions, signed by many prominent individuals and organizations. In September, 1998, he participated n the first independent U.S. delegation to investigate the U.S. bombing of the Al-Shifa pharmaceutical plant and was a producer of the video, Eyewitness Sudan. The destroyed facility had supplied 50% of the Sudan's medicine needs.

Becker was member of the Bay Area Anti-Apartheid Network Steering Committee for many years. He has written many articles and commentaries on Middle East affairs, and has been interviewed by numerous national and international media, among them the McNeil-Lehrer News Hour, CNN, BBC, Asahi Shimbun, Pacific National News, KPFA and KPFK radio, the New York Times, San Francisco Chronicle, Oakland Tribune, Los Angeles Times and others. He has represented the IAC as a speaker at hundreds of campus and community forums in the United States, Canada, England, Japan, Greece, Yugoslavia, Jordan and other countries.

http://www.math.ucdavis.edu/~jerdonek/dwgg/iraq/becker.html


=====
Here's the IAC document for anyone who cares to read it. I've pasted more than 4 paraggraphs since they have a specific request to distribute and propagate this information:

In April 2003 the U.S. and British rulers finally achieved what they had wanted to do since July 1958: the counter-revolution in Iraq. But erasing 45 years of independence from a people's consciousness is no easy task, and the occupiers face a future of resistance to their imperial rule.

The counter-revolution in Iraq--executed by the vastly superior firepower of the world's lone superpower--is a heavy blow not only to the Iraqi people, but to all those struggling for liberation in the Middle East.

The imperialist takeover of the biggest and most populous Arab state in the Gulf region gravely threatens Syria, Lebanon, Iran and the Palestinian people. It is not a coincidence that the crushing of Iraq was immediately followed by the unveiling of Bush's "road map" for the Palestinians. In the aftermath of the first Gulf War and the collapse of the Soviet Union, the first President George Bush launched the now- defunct Oslo "peace process."

<snip>

U.S. leaders and their corporate media have relentlessly promoted the idea that their goal of "regime change" simply involved removing the ultra-demonized Hussein and his immediate circle. In reality, Washington's aim was to destroy everything that made Iraq an independent state.

Everything is gone--from the military to the government ministries to the state-run food-distribution and health-care systems.

In the aftermath of the war, Iraq is under a Pentagon military dictatorship. Meetings of U.S.-picked Iraqi "leaders" are now being held to set up a puppet "interim government."

<snip>

THE IRAQI REVOLUTION

But on July 14, 1958, a military rebellion led by Brigadier Abdul Karim Kassem and the Free Officers movement turned into a country-wide revolution. The king and his administration were suddenly gone, the recipients of people's justice.

The 1958 revolution put an end to colonial domination and marked the beginning of Iraq's real independence. Although the Iraqi Communist Party was the biggest organized force among the revolutionary forces, the revolution did not lead to a socialist transformation of the country. The ICP strategy was alliance with the anti-colonial nationalist bourgeoisie.

Though not a socialist revolution, the Iraqi Revolution created panic in Wash ington and on Wall Street. President Dwight Eisenhower called it "the gravest crisis since the Korean War."

The day after the Iraqi Revolution, 20,000 U.S. Marines began landing in Lebanon. The day after that, 6,600 British paratroopers were dropped into Jordan.

The U.S. and British expeditionary forces went in to save the neo- colonial gov ernments in Lebanon and Jordan. Had they not, the popular impulse from Iraq would have surely brought down the Western-dependent regimes in Beirut and Amman.


But Eisenhower and his generals had something else in mind as well: invading Iraq, overturning the revolution and re-in stalling a puppet government in Baghdad.

Three factors forced Washington to abandon that plan in 1958: 1) the sweeping character of the Iraqi Revolution; 2) the announcement by the United Arab Republic--Syria and Egypt were then one state that bordered Iraq--that its forces would fight the imperialists if they sought to invade; and, 3) strong support for the revolution from the People's Republic of China and the Soviet Union. The USSR began to mobilize troops in the southern Soviet republics close to Iraq.

The combination of these factors forced the U.S. leaders to accept the existence of Iraqi Revolution. But Washington never really reconciled itself to the loss of Iraq.


Over the next three decades, the United States applied many tactics designed to weaken and undermine Iraq as an independent country. At various times--for instance after Iraq completed nationalizing the Iraqi Petroleum Company in 1972 and signed a defense treaty with the USSR--the United States gave massive military support to Kurdish elements fighting Baghdad and added Iraq to its list of "terrorist states."

Washington supported the more rightist elements within the post- revolution political structure against the communist and left- nationalist forces. For example, the United States backed the overthrow and assassination of President Abdel Karim Kassem in 1963 by a right- wing military grouping. And Washington applauded the suppression of the left and unions by the Arab Ba'ath Socialist Party governments in the 1960s and 1970s.

In the 1980s, the United States encouraged and helped to fund and arm Iraq, under the leadership of Saddam Hussein, in its war against Iran. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger revealed the real U.S. attitude about the war: "I hope they kill each other."

Bourgeois governments in both Iran and Iraq pursued the war for expansionist aims. The war was a disaster for both Iran and Iraq, killing a million people and weakening both countries.


<snip>

It would have been inconceivable even a few years earlier that Soviet leaders would have stood by while the United States sent more than a half-million troops to attack a nearby country with which the USSR had a mutual defense agreement.

Rather than ushering in a new era of peace, the counter-revolutionary overturn of the government of the USSR and throughout the socialist camp was seen in Washington as the green light for a new round of wars and interventions from Panama to Somalia to Yugoslavia.

The counter-revolution in the Soviet Union paved the way for U.S. aggression and counter-revolution in Iraq, the negation of Iraq's sovereignty and the destruction of the structures that made it an independent state.

Having achieved their victory, however, the occupiers now confront a people who have a long and proud history of resistance. The anti-war movement here and around the world must give its unconditional support to the Iraqi anti-colonial resistance.


http://www.iacenter.org/iraq_resist4.htm
http://www.internationalanswer.org/pdf/iraqresist.pdf for the pamphlet itself

[diamond14]

211. this post should be READ by everyone here....it clarifies the whole

discussion....

Thank-you Tinoire for your well-documented post
.....and thank you for your service to OUR country.



here's a good explanation of American colonialization
http://www.thesunmagazine.org/bully.html

-snips-

When the Gulf War started in 1991, you could almost feel a reverence come over the country. We had a forty-two-day running commercial for militarism. Nearly everybody was glued to CNN, and whenever they saw a Tomahawk cruise missile taking off from a navy vessel somewhere in the Persian Gulf, they practically stood up and shouted, "Hooray for America!" But that missile was going to hit a market in Basra or someplace, destroy three hundred food stalls, and kill forty-two very poor people. And we considered that a good thing.
----------------------------

It's the same story in the Philippines, which we conquered during the Philippine-American War - commonly (and inaccurately) called the Spanish-American War. More than a million Filipinos died during that war from violence and dengue fever, a byproduct of the fighting. We had government testimony of widespread use of torture by U.S. troops and of a general giving orders to kill all of the males on Negros Island. Once, that island could feed more than the population of the entire Philippine archipelago. And what's the condition of that island now, after a hundred years of American benevolence? It's owned by twelve families and produces 60 percent of the sugar exported from the Philippines. The children of those who chop the cane starve because their families don't even have enough land to grow their own vegetables. Per capita income in the Philippines ten years ago was less than six hundred dollars. Per capita income in Japan, by contrast, was more than twenty-four thousand dollars. Even the poorest countries in the region have per capita incomes double or triple that of the Philippines.

[diamond14]

100. here's just a few of the nasty verbal assaults on DC Protestors (links)

from DU posts

American Patriots, anti-war protestors, returning from the DC-anti-war protests (10/25/03) were called:

communists, extreme Marxists, wacko Stalinists, radical leftists,
un-American, BIZARRE people, radical socialists, extremists, hysterical whacko extremist hippies, cop-killers, killers of American troops, pro-North Korea activists, apparently crazed, fanatic people, monsters, Jew-haters, screaming 'foreign born speakers', freak show, sectarian leftists, rabid, ugly, toxic and more...

here's one titled: ANSWER,Clark, Stalinism,Fascism,& the red/brown syndrome
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=592505&mesg_id=592505

and another titled: So I notice LOTS of hate spewed towards A.N.S.W.E.R., does that mean
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=598728&mesg_id=598728

and another titled: I knew ANSWER was out there, but this is beyond the pale.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=598599&mesg_id=598599

and this subtle display of racism and bigotry to start a DU thread, titled:
This DC rally is the most bizarre event I have ever witnessed
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=589807&mesg_id=589807

[ShaneGR]

107. Uh, what are you talking about???????????

and this subtle display of racism and bigotry to start a DU thread, titled:
This DC rally is the most bizarre event I have ever witnessed
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=589807&mesg_id=589807

Is the word bizarre somehow related to racism and bigotry? How, well, odd of you to say such a thing.

[diamond14]

111. (link)screaming...foreign born speakers...and Filippinos with red

headbands...BIZARRE.... the Philipines, South Korea, North Korea, the Middle-east, South America, Central America, Nexico, Africa.... You name it, they found someone from one of those countries.


This DC rally is the most bizarre event I have ever witnessed
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=589807&mesg_id=589807

-----------------------------------------------------------

it may surprise you to find out that those people on the stage were AMERICANS...and highly respected Americans who have worked for many years in community projects to help others...and, another surprise, nobody was 'found' from other countries...they were right HERE IN AMERICA....

Yes, even Al Sharpton, an American Veteran, was BORN IN AMERICA...

[ShaneGR]

113. I would suggest reading the whole post

You're quoting out of context.

[diamond14]

143. "communist sympathizers from North Korea or Cuba" (link)

another of your posts on that same thread...

and yes, I have read the entire thread,

and no, there's nothing out of context about it...

________________________

"Look, if being a Democract means supporting communist sympathizers from North Korea or Cuba, well, I guess pigs are flying out of my ass."

This DC rally is the most bizarre event I have ever witnessed
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=589807&mesg_id=589807

[ShaneGR]

146. Once again, taken out of context

That discussion was about some of the speakers who were onstage backing communist north korea and cuba.... the poster inferred that you weren't a Democrat if you didn't support that cause.

But you're pretty good at ignoring anything rational, in favor of the most extreme thin-skinned reaction you can come up with, including labeling people as in favor of shooting protestors.

Personally, I think you've crossed a line, and are clearly in pathetic land.

Time to put you on ignore. Take care!

[Rich Hunt]

190. those aren't "assaults" on DU protesters

They are opinions about ANSWER / WWP.

Please stop lying. These lies themselves constitute a smear campaign against those who criticize ANSWER / WWP / IAC.

[Name removed]

197. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rich Hunt]

216. I've gone to ANSWER-sponsored protests

Kind of hard to "depersonalize" something when you've been a part of it.

Please explain to me your basis for these assumptions about me.

Your arguments are embarrassingly irrational, and you do need to apologize to me for the lies in your post.

I criticized WWP / ANSWER - NOT people who have attended demonstrations, as I have done.

For Christ's sake, I have done all sorts of anti-war stuff - helped out in events, put together literature - ALL KINDS OF THINGS.

Please prove otherwise, or retract your lies.

[bearfartinthewoods]

226. don't take it personally

and don't count on a retraction for the lies.

it's a feeble ploy that some people use to try and discredit anyone who disagrees with them. a sort of McCarthy-esque loyalty test...
if you don't back ANSWER 100 percent than obviously you must be a freeper </sarcasm>

[ShaneGR]

106. I don't think one exists....

People over-reacted big time, thinking that an attack on Answers agenda at the rally had something to do with the marchers themselves. I had one poster accuse me of saying it was ok to shoot protesters! Of course I never said ANYTHING like that.

[0rganism]

21. Actually, I do recall similar hostilities on previous ANSWER rallies

There is some concern that socialist ANSWER doesn't represent Democratic party interests well. This mirrors the concern of socialists and other leftists that the Democratic party doesn't represent our interests particularly well, either. So there's bound to be some jabbing and poking.

But I don't think this really means much in terms of our shared committment to remove bush* from office next year.

[mmonk]

25. no animousity really,

just disagreement over the focus of the protests I think.

[diamond14]

47. I was viciously attacked on this board, even as I lay in a hospital

from the same nasty people who are attacking protestors now...it was the March 22, 2003..a United States Park Police officer hit me with his police car...some people on the DU board (the very same people attacking again) called me liar, demanded the incident reports, and when I gave posted the incident reports, they still attacked me, viciously, mercilessly and cruelly, claiming that nobody ever gets hurt in these protests, that the police wouldn't do that...the same nasty people have accused me just recently (on DU) of lying and say I can't be trusted because of the post shown here from the March 22nd anti-war protest...there are tons of medical records, it took 5 months before I could stand up again, and then, only with canes....and now I marched again...and surprise...attacked again on DU !!! by the same people, who now show more posts, and appear to many as regular DU posters...vicious and underhanded, cruel..they know how to spin things, distort things, and they are very good at it, posting just close enough to keep from gettting tombstoned and adding little seeds of suggestions and innuendos everywhere...they came here right after the January 18, 2003, when bush* minions realized that WE THE PEOPLE were standing up....

____________________________________________________

Here's the report that I posted, and for which some DUers felt the necessity to attack (one of the attackers is posting here on this thread right now)....

_____________________________________________________



Incident numbers for this report:

United States Park Police (Department of Interior), Incident #7389, 14:30 hrs., 03/22/2003, injured person, 16th and E St.

District of Columbia - Emergency Medical Services, Incident #F030031265, 14:21 hrs., 03/22/2003, vehicle-pedestrian, 1600 E. St., responded to by Engine 23 and Medic 1, transport to George Washington Hospital Emergency.

______________________________________________________________

CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW RESPECTING AN ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION, OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF; OR ABRIDGING THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH, OR OF THE PRESS; OR THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE PEACEABLY TO ASSEMBLE, AND TO PETITION THE GOVERNMENT FOR A REDRESS OF GRIEVANCES.

(The Bill of Rights to the U.S. Constitution was ratified on December 15, 1791)


It was a beautiful day in the District of Columbia, Saturday March 22, 2003. I arrived late for the 12 noon event at the White House. It was about 1 PM, and I rose up the escalator at the Navy-Memorial Metro (subway train) stop on Pennsylvania Avenue, Southeast of the White House. The journey on the Metro had been uplifting. There were cheers and support from passengers who noticed my sign, thumbs up from the Metro train drivers and support people, several people decided to also go to the White House, people on the platform chatting about their pro-peace stance and giving encouragement. My simple two-sided sign read: "God said: Thou Shalt Not Kill" and on the other side" "Bush is a War Criminal". As I walked up Pennsylvania Avenue toward the White House event, people asked me to pose for photos, cheered from their passing cars, gave me the "thumbs up" and encouraging words from an outdoor restaurant. Little children really liked the "God says: Thou Shalt Not Kill". They asked their parents questions like "is that the war?" "are we killing people?". There were only two irate guys during the walk up Pennsylvania Avenue. They shouted at me "It's murder, not killing, don't you know the difference..murder, that's what it's all about, stupid." I did not speak, simple held my sign. "God says: Thou Shalt Not Kill" seemed to boggle the minds of the pro-war agitators. The pro-war, anti-first amendment people seem troubled by the commandment. Their moral confusion was fascinating to hear. Four times during my Pro-Peace walk, I heard this idea "it's murder, not killing, stupid". Such lame statements must come from some ditto-head limbaugh-type hate-radio host.

As I got closer to the White House, there were bigger crowds. The entire White House area was an amazing fortress, looking more like a war-torn, military-protected third-world type embassy, buttressed by lots and lots of those ugly concrete highway crash barricades (some two or three deep), high chain line fences, metal barricades, and heavy metal police officers (with clubs and serious guns) lining all the streets, snipers on the roof. The People's House has really gone to the dogs.



This photo was taken on the North side of the White House. There were lots of people taking pictures of me and my sign, some requesting the "God says: Thou Shalt Not Kill" sign, while others wanted the other side "Bush is a War Criminal". There were many "thumbs up" and cheers. Lots of supportive people were random tourists, visiting OUR Nation's Capital to show their children the front line of our democracy. A Philadelphia Catholic priest stopped to tell me that he was proud of my sign "God says: Thou Shalt Not Kill". He noted that some pro-peace people wrongly took God's name in vain (violating another commandment). The priest had blessings and prayers for me.

In the photo, there is a veteran hugging me. He told me that he was Pro-PEACE and he held a sign "Vote to Impeach". I just met him and we stood together for photographers. He was standing next to a pro-WAR Veteran who held some kind of military flag (which was difficult to see, because the flag was hanging down along a pole). Part of the flag can be seen. As I joined these two Veterans, the pro-WAR Veteran told me that he objected to my sign. I said nothing. Then he said that he respected my right to speak, and it was OK for me to stand there. So the three of us stood there for a long time for photographers. The pro-PEACE Veteran with a "Vote to Impeach" sign, the pro-WAR Veteran with some kind of flag, and me with a "Bush is a War Criminal". We were all respecting each others right to freedom of speech, with the White House behind us.

As I read the papers the next day, I realize that I missed the main marching event. As many other pro-peace people, I had simply gone to the White House and walked around the entire complex. There were plenty of pro-PEACE people walking around the White House fortifications. With such large crowds, it was easy to mistake it for the main event. For the most part, my peace walk was extremely uplifting. People cheered, gave thumbs-up, passing pedestrians whispered "thank-you", cars honked.

There was one small, but sad encounter along the east side of the sprawling White House fortifications. A family group saw my sign: Dad, Mom, and three young girls. The girls were real happy to see the commandment so prominently displayed and were asking their parents about the war killing, and telling them how they learned this famous commandment in school. So I paused for a moment and stood humbly to the side of the very-wide sidewalk, quietly standing with my sign "God says: Thou Shalt Not Kill". Both the dad and mom suddenly got very angry: "Get your sign out of here, we've seen it already. These are children, how dare you show them that sign". Then, young girls displayed fear and confusion on their faces. As their dad became increasingly vocal, they hid from him near their mom. This was followed by cursing, using God's name in vain, and then the dad spit on the commandment right in front of his children and called me a *--** -* coward. I said a prayer for them. Blessed are the children.

As I came to the South side of the White House, there were more tourists trying to photograph the White House. It was a beautiful day, but sadly, the tourists' view was very impeded by concrete and metal barricades, snipers, and heavy police presence. On the South side of the White House, the street was totally closed to vehicle traffic with a series of blockades on both ends. There is a large tall black metal fence along the entire South side of the White House grounds. Adjacent to the black metal fence, the entire pedestrian sidewalk was also closed. Several major concrete/metal barricades were run along the street, parallel to the black fence. The police were allowing and directing pedestrians into only two of their barricaded corridors, the furthest from the White House. One of these barricaded corridors included part of the street, the curb, and a dirt area, the other included a dirt area and a sidewalk with a final barricade running along the entire South side.

First in the outer barricaded corridor, I held my sign for photographs, and several people asked me to go around into the closer pedestrian corridor. People wanted better photo views of my sign with the White House. I exited the outer pedestrian corridor to the West side, where police controlled entry and exit to both pedestrian corridors. As some people left each corridor, police signaled that others could enter. With other pedestrians, I waited on the West end, while two police cars came through the closer pedestrian corridor. The police officer said those were "emergency vehicles" and we could enter after they passed through. As the cars had moved through the corridor, they occasionally stopped and sounded to encourage people's movement toward the sides of the corridor.
After the cars cleared the corridor, the officer directed me and others to enter that corridor, where we joined about 30 people already there.

As I got into the main White House view, there were lots of people taking pictures. About 25 white-uniformed Navy officers entered the outer pedestrian corridor, standing along the outer barricade, smiling, giving me the "thumbs-up", especially as I raised the "bush is a war criminal" side of my sign. There were at least 100 people in the outer pedestrian corridor, looking toward my sign with the White House behind me. As I turned the sign around to the "God says: Thou Shalt Not Kill" and cameras were in action. There were people cheering. An IndyMedia reporter came in front of me with a microphone and asked about my sign. I was standing very close to the curb. The reporter was on the dirt area while I spoke into his microphone. Just as I noted that my sign came from the ten commandments, suddenly I was hit by a police car on my right side.

The police officer, who hit me with the car, had made no attempt to warn me. As I rolled backwards onto the passenger corner of the car hood, I saw the driver's menacing face. Suddenly standing precariously next to the vehicle, I took one step and fell onto the pavement right next the curb. It was just sheer luck that I hadn't rolled into a fatal position under the wheel. Another police officer was yelling at me: "get up….get up before we run you down again….you're in the way of our car, get out of here or we'll hit you again." I was in horrible pain. I told the officer that I was injured and could not walk. He continued to yell about hitting me again if I did not get out of the way. The car engine began to rev, and the car moved forward. As the car began to back up, with a major effort, I saved myself by desperately crawling and pulling myself up over the curb. Then, the car was right next to the curb and inches from my head. The officer continued to yell "you're still in our way, get out of here, stand up and get out of here." I went into a major medical shock. The effort had taken it all out of me.

So there I was. A middle-aged, tax-paying, law-abiding American woman on the dirt in front of the White House. My friends told me that the police delayed even calling an ambulance for a very unacceptable amount of time. The police focused only on telling me to get up and leave, and filling out their version on incident forms. Police ordered witnesses to say that I deliberately walked into their car. I was left in the dirt, in a slumped position, in medical shock, with my sign "God says: Thou Shalt Not Kill" prominently displaced next to me. There were at least 100 people watching. No one was allowed assist me. The main officer continued to interrogate the IndyMedia reporter and my brave young friend, who demanded that they call an ambulance. The police harassed them and were very threatening. The officer refused to allow the IndyMedia reporter and my friend to be witnesses (both refused to say that I ran into the car, as the officer demanded).

Although one officer claimed to be a paramedic, he did nothing to stabilize me, just yelled about how I was being uncooperative. When the ambulance finally arrived, the police did not allow the emergency vehicle to use the barricaded corridor where I was located. The police insisted that the ambulance enter a farther away barricaded corridor. To get me into the ambulance, paramedics had to strap me to a very narrow board, and slowly lift me over TWO major barricades. This was a lengthy, time-consuming, cumbersome, and dangerous effort for both me and the paramedics. My friends told me that another pro-peace person took my sign, promising that it would be seen again. When I got to GW Hospital, I was treated for life-threatening medical shock. There were several medical personnel there when I finally regained consciousness following intravenous injections. The doctor whispered in my ear "They tried to kill you."

After many hours, my condition was stabilized through a series of medical interventions. It seemed like forever, but I was stabilized, and I was conscious, and wonderful people had saved my life! The doctors treated me for possible tetanus, due to my abrasions, and cuts, and being forced to crawl onto the dirt with open wounds. They attended to the risk of infection. The assault has badly injured me. My injuries are listed as "Car vs. Body" and the follow up is Orthopedic Surgeon and Internal Medicine Doctor, with Tylenol/ Codeine for pain control. As I lay injured in the Emergency room (and a lot of dirt was brought in on me), I prayed for the people of Iraq that we are killing with our tax dollars. The Iraqis do not have any medical facilities or trained personnel like the people who saved my life. Unlike so many Americans today, I am fortunate to have medical insurance. Our country is spending so much money on killing, and so little on Americans' necessary medical care. I will forever be grateful to the DC Fire Department/Paramedics, and the caring people at the GW Hospital Emergency Department.

These White House thugs are defended by John Ashcroft's Justice Department. Our rights to free speech are being dissolved. On March 22, 2003, the White House police attempted to murder a 52 year-old law-abiding woman, in front of over 100 people. And now we are Germany in 1939. What will YOU do? Your silence encourages the next step.

[Tinoire]

62. Terrific AWESOME post! And thanks a million for sticking by your guns

defending ANSWER against the smears of some new hate-mongering mischief makers here! You know ANSWER is doing a fine job when you look at the shrill, silly accusations that were hurled recently.

Rove, Rove- you're just not slick enough and neither are your minions- no finesse whatsoever.

[0rganism]

93. I do remember your incident

and it surprised me then that anyone would doubt for a second that police are capable of harming protestors. I attributed it to naivete on the part of the poster. But, if you say the same persons are still at work on you now... Sheesh! I would send a warning to the moderators about the specific individuals.

What happened to you is tragic; I'm encouraged to read that you recovered, and went undaunted to march in protest again. Thanks.

[spotbird]

117. No one that I know of doubted that the police are capable of

harming protesters. That was NEVER an issue, not even a part of an issue. What is great now is that she can finally put the whole issue to rest!

[diamond14]

131. my, my, my......'NEVER an issue' 'she can finally put the whole

issue to rest'....does it really surprise you so much that I remember everything that you said???

[spotbird]

135. I can’t tell you what that means to me, really, I’m touched.

That is a most welcome relief also! It means so much to me that you remember that I wanted every bit of your story to be known and proved credible. Police abuse their authority but it is rare that they are caught in the way you nailed them. You have in your hand now a perfect opportunity to expose them, it honestly is your duty to act. It was/is critically important to me that you do everything in your power to expose your abusers. It is not too late, let’s get started! YOU CAN DO IT!

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spotbird]

152. At last.

It would be a shame for you to have suffered as you did and not at least try to receive some justice. In fact it is your obligation to go forward, you have told us over and over that you have proof, and that is what makes it so important that you fight back! It is rare that there is so much verification of an event, present it so the world will know just what happened. The authorities shouldn’t be allowed to attack an individual the way you were attacked!

[diamond14]

189. your saracsm doesn't impress me at all....it's apparent what your

intentions are....

[spotbird]

196. My intentions are to persuade you to take the help

you have been offered and fight back! There are still pockets of civilization left and your story will cause genuine outrage. Fight back!

[diamond14]

198. the STENCH is overwhelming....

.

[spotbird]

199. All I’m trying to do is help.

Pretty soon you are going to make me cry with all your insults to my motivations. You have all the proof you need that I’m sincere, I said that I mean to help you. That should be all that is necessary for you to trust me.

Now that I think about it I am more than sad about your attacks on my integrity; I’m outraged that you would treat me like this. I practically beg you to let me help you and all I get is accusations about my sincerity? This is beneath contempt! It is absolutely inconceivable that you don’t have blind trust in me; I post on DU all the time!

[Name removed]

214. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spotbird]

217. Please explain.

There is nothing childlike in offering to help. Maybe if more people here did that the world would be a better place.

[diamond14]

220. barf....still stinks.....

:puke:

maybe if more people would stop degrading, insulting and slandering the Patriot American anti-war protestors, the world would be a better place.

[spotbird]

259. Just do the right thing.

If more people would do what is right there would be less protester abuse. Complaining just isn't enough, it takes action.

[diamond14]

260. ordering ME to do the right thing, then you will stop abusing protestors

that's obscene, miss 'moral authority' ...



....and your objections to the anti-war protestors make me think that you would be happier on another board...brave 'Patriot American anti-war protestors' will always prevail over snotty 'little' mindless lumpenproletariat moralizing on this board....

[blm]

98. You're here and speaking out amen...

that's the important thing.

[spotbird]

115. Amen, I’m so relieved.

I remember your saga well, at the time I felt that it was a horrible story and wished so much that we could share the injustice you endured with the world. If only the story could be verified, I was ready to write the press release and have the police pay the consequences. Many here also suggested that you pursue a civil action since your trauma was witnessed by so many. Well there is good news; fortunately the statute of limitations has not run on a civil action so you should now actively pursue that avenue.

What you will need is your medical records. If you want us to spread your story far and wide but don’t want to share personal information you should redact anything you don’t want widely known from the records before posting them. Naturally your lawyer will want the whole record, but they are required to keep confidences.

Second, that police report. When you originally shared your story all you were able to provide was the inital log that there was an accident between the police and an unnamed pedestrian, with no other details. Sadly, at the time the actual police report had yet to be prepared. By now the whole report will be available which will give us the ammunition you need to get moving, it would have the offending officer's name. Isn’t this fantastic! You will finally be able to get justice!

Third, your event was witnessed by so many and their accounts of the event will be critical in the news reports. Since the police report is available you may start there, or the reporter who saw the whole thing may now be ready to talk.

It is thrilling that you now have the opportunity to set the record straight. It must have been horrible for you to be asked all those questions so early on that you were unable to respond to, at last you have a chance to get the justice you deserve. CONGRATULATIONS! The sooner you get your information together the better, we all want to help.

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[diamond14]

155. spare me...your post is a real crock....

now, at least everyone knows....

your 'buddy' is here too, same stuff....

[spotbird]

157. You are hurting my feelings Amen,

You can cause change, do it! You are able to set the record straight, we want to support you through this, we are here for you. Get your records together so we can get started, the sooner the better. You have to do the right thing here Amen, stand up for your rights and free speech. It is time to draw a line in the sand, and you have the power! You have so much evidence that you will not be ignored, go for it!

[bearfartinthewoods]

182. agreed...i think it's an abandonment of a citizen's duty

to allow any cop who yelled:
" "get up….get up before we run you down again….you're in the way of our car, get out of here or we'll hit you again."

to get away with it.

just think, that guy is still walking around with a badge, maybe even still running over innocent protesters because nothing was done to stop him.

jeeeeze...considering he was nuts enough to try and 'murder' someone
in front of all those witnesses AND a reporter and to even threaten to do it again?

this must be dealt with. someone that unbalanced shouldn't get away with it.

'And now we are Germany in 1939. What will YOU do? Your silence encourages the next step.'

take the next step!!!!!!!!

[quinnox]

30. I remember reading similar complaints

about a former Answer rally that was shown on Cspan, people who were there were saying they were turned off by all the fringe agendas that were being promoted that they didn't agree with.

For instance, I remember reading about someone who was complaining about all the pro-palestine/anti-Israel speakers, saying that they didn't support that point of view and that they just wanted to protest Bush's war.

[WilliamPitt]

144. That was me

I was freaked because I was thinking about the TV impact. Then I actually went to an ANSWER rally and changed my tune.

Wanna be active on the Left? Learn to love the Palestinian lobby. They're always going to be there, loud and proud. <--- my lesson

[9215]

36. Beware: the freeps may be making mischief.

sowing discord, etc.

[Rich Hunt]

41. disagreement doesn't make one a "freeper"

Honestly, some people here are acting like, um, Stalinists.

This is *exactly* the problem I have with the left these days - it dodges criticism and openness.

[Blue_Chill]

43. The very people that complain the loudest about

Bush's "You are with us or against us" policy, behave the very same way here on DU.

I've been called a freeper for not agreeing with socialism. That is simpley amazing.

[Rich Hunt]

45. yes

...and lots of my posts have been deleted, including one that simply defended WFMU (I said it wasn't a "Zionist" station).

I've been a leftist my whole life and shouldn't have to defend myself like this from shadowy "long-term" posters who think I'm a "freeper" because I don't have enough posts. I found out about DU when I attended a demonstration with other DU-ers.

Another poster went through the trouble of combing the archives for evidence that I was a "Reagan Democrat", even quoting an ancient post of mine. She demanded to know my age, experience and loyalties. I was more than a little creeped out by it.

As a civil libertarian, I'm disgusted by this smearing and completely illiberal behavior.

[bearfartinthewoods]

149. don't take it personally

it's a side effect of head blows. their knee jerk reactions to any critique of ANSWER or the uber-left are so severe they are knocking themselves silly.

btw...the next time someone tries to McCarthy you with the third degree, hit alert. loyalty tests are not allowed.

[Forkboy]

66. I dont think you're a freeper because you dont agree with socialism

....

[9215]

68. Reading comprehension problem here my friend

You will notice I used the all important qualifier "may be". I did not say "are". I find far to many people at DU who do not understand the differance between the two.

The rest of you who concurred with dymaxia are also not comprehending what you are reading.

[DebJ]

112. dissension = democracy / no dissent = despotic control

[Tinoire]

70. The freeps and also the new Conservative Dems

One poster whose name I will never forget was concerned about what her Republican friends would think about all these radicals walking around unkempt and making all that... noise! :wtf:

[bearfartinthewoods]

150. where does this unkempt rap come from?

i watched a lot of the march and didn't see much 'unkemptness' and saw another thread calling for a dress code?? i dig the desire to represent the average American but that's pretty much what i saw, among the marchers on cspan. :wtf:?

[Tinoire]

164. Same thing I saw- Normal people walking around sincere in their beliefs

I don't know where this bit about unkemptness came from because the people I saw at the rally and on TV were dressed like the people you see walking around everyday. Oh yeag, they were a few from the Black Block but 1. they were not unkempt and 2. they dress like that daily.

I have no idea. I was shocked at the viciousness but it did not surprise me who it was coming from here. There were some decent DUers asking question and expressing concern but they didn't start any of this and they quickly caught on to what was going on.

I'm just glad the rats came out of their holes so we could see who they are.

Yeah... normally dressed people expressing their antiwar sentiments. Next time maybe we should all show up in suits and dresses clutching empty stock portfolios that seem to be so much more important than flesh and blood.

Maybe there were two rallies? Go figure :shrug:

[Name removed]

193. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bearfartinthewoods]

221. wow...do make a habit of holding people's disabilities against them?

how 'liberal' of you.....

[diamond14]

245. no, nothing here that 'holds people's disabilities against them'

it's just not there....I value diversity...

and I am 'liberal', and proud of it, also progressive...

exactly the opposite of 'FR'.....

[Blue_Chill]

40. The question is a strawman.

I went to the first ANSWER DC anti-Iraqi War march and I had problems with ANSWER then and voiced them on DU. So according to this thread I was attacking myself by attacking ANSWER.

I'm sorry that some of you can't grasp the concept that a problem with ANSWER is not a problem with anti-war DUers. I don't believe that simpley because you are anti-war and attended a event that you are automatically in the same boat with a communist anti-all things US group.

I'm sorry if those of you who attended the rally felt that you were being attacked upon your return. I can't speak for everyone but I know that was not my intent. Anti-war is a issue very close to my heart and one that I (even if I disagree) respect greatly. Blessed are the peace makers, wether you agree or disagree you can not hate a man/woman for being against war. It is the most noble of causes.

[bearfartinthewoods]

170. gotcha

[mmonk]

49. The way I see it

if you are going to have an anti-war protest and call it as such, keep it an anti-war protest out of courtesy and respect to those that have come to join for that reason and that reason alone as a way to make their voice be heard.

[prolesunited]

97. Could be a valid point

"keep it an anti-war protest out of courtesy and respect to those that have come to join for that reason"

But the funny thing is that the only people who were complaining vocally were those who did NOT attend. Those who actually were there didn't seem to mind the lack of courtesy and respect shown to them. Go figure. :shrug:

[KG]

56. not surprised at all.

plenty of racism, misogyny, red baiting, homophobia, xenophobia, etc to make any discussion interesting.

conservative idiocy is alive and well on DU.

[mmonk]

61. I missed all that.

[KG]

88. stick around.

those unattractive facets of society can be found on DU. it just take a thread about certain subjects for the less enlightened amongst us to show their true colors.

[Blue_Chill]

64. Yes there is plenty for those who define those things

as being anything at all the differs with their own views.

Misogyny - one that I am often accused of because I am not a 100% supporter of abortion at anytime for any reason.

Racism - I have yet to see a racist post on DU. I've seen many however accusing others of it for no reason other then saying they don't like Sharpton.

Homophobia - I've yet to see anything that can be considered homophobic other then those that oppose using gay marriage as a party platform issue. That is a very arguable point in my opinion.

xenophobia - I am accused of this everytime I refuse to join the "everything america ever did was bad" crowd or the "support your jobs to India becasue they diserve it more then you" crowd. Neither are examples of true xenophobia.

[KG]

83. well guess what, at my keyboard i get to define what's what,

and while you weren't in my mind when i posted if want to you take exception at my definitions of those terms, oh well that's something i can't control and frankly won't lose any sleep over.

[Blue_Chill]

116. So then I'm right.

Thanks.

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tinoire]

73. Hey KG

:hi: Saw you slugging it out in those threads. Thanks for helping put those people in their place.

[KG]

91. aw, shucks!

pleasure's all mine, girlfriend! :)

throwing down the smack on the paleo-dems and neo-libs is the highlight of my day! :hi:

[DealsGapRider]

63. ANSWER explicitly called for the support of those...

..who are killing our troops. What other way is there to react to such a sentiment but to express contempt, even venom. Those who make apologies for people who expressly advocate the murder of American service members are no less guilty of despicable conduct.

[Blue_Chill]

65. Don't waste your time.

If you attack ANSWER they will simpley ignore your point and say you hate DUer's.

After all that is the whole point of this thread right?

[IrateCitizen]

71. Funny, I didn't even see ANSWER mentioned in the initial post...

And I'd bet you'd be hard-pressed to find even more than a tiny handful of actual ANSWER members here on DU. And those who actively support ANSWER in particular are definitely far from approaching anything close to a majority.

But hey, when you can bring out baseless smears and outright mischaracterizations, why bother with the realities??? :eyes:

[DealsGapRider]

90. so?

Everyone knows it was an ANSWER protest. And I didn't say there were many ANSWER members on DU. For all I know, there aren't any. But there are a few people, thankfully not the majority, who think there's nothing wrong with the statement of support ANSWER issued on behalf of the people murdering our service members. How many posts have I seen with thinly veiled defenses of these murders...stuff like, "If a burglar broke into your home, wouldn't shooting him be okay?" and calling the Iraqis blowing shit up over there the "right side." Blech.

[Tinoire]

95. Pray source before monkeys fly out of my butt

the statement of support ANSWER issued on behalf of the people murdering our service members.

Pray source before monkeys fly out of my butt.

[G_j]

132. I'm getting ready to duck n/t

[Tinoire]

165. No need lol

No source. No monkeys. :evilgrin:

You gotta love these total fabrications- boy when they stretch, they s-t-r-e-t-c-h!

[DealsGapRider]

166. Are you saying that ANSWER didn't issue that statement?

What part of direct quote don't you understand?

[Tinoire]

176. The one you can't produce because it doesn't exist

So you go out of your way to s-t-r-e-t-c-h their statement that we support the Iraqis as they resist war-imposed colonialism.



Shame on you for implying that Military Families Against the War, Military Families Speak Out, and Vets for Peace would be supporting that.



SHAME!

But quick! Look behind you! There's a commie standing there! No, no it's Al-Queda!

You're a real work of art recycling that old 60s claim that antiwar protesters were supporting the killers of our soldiers.



This soldier looks down on you for that. BIG TIME!

[DealsGapRider]

178. That's not what I'm saying.

"Shame on you for implying that Military Families Against the War, Military Families Speak Out, and Vets for Peace would be supporting that."

I'm not saying that these people support the killing of our soldiers. Of course they don't. Neither do the majority on DU, mirabile dictu. But ANSWER does. And anyone who marched in that protest marched with people who explicitly stated their support for killing American troops in Iraq. If you're okay with that, fine. I'm not.

[Tinoire]

185. What is it with your reading comprehension?

Oh ANSWER does, does they? Pray tell me and every single poster here, to include the ones who have already tried to advance your reading comprehension- WHERE DOES ANSWER MAKE THAT STATEMENT? Where has ANSWER "stated their support for killing American troops in Iraq"?

And anyone who marched in that protest marched with people who explicitly stated their support for killing American troops in Iraq.

THERE YOU GO AGAIN! You have no shame! You are explicitly stating that Vets for Peace, MFSO, MFAW and all those other stupid fools are so uninformed that they "marched with people who explicitly stated their support for killing American troops in Iraq".

If it's so explicit, how come you're the only one who manages to imagine it??

Let me clue you in on something dear, those groups you are smearing, especially Vets for Peace, know exactly who they're dealing with when they work with ANSWER. VFW has been working CLOSELY with them for MANY YEARS and would trump your ass black and blue for the kind of accusations you're making.

Yeah, I'll wear my Dress Blues to the next march just for people like you. I'll make sure my medals are polished really BRIGHT so that you can zoom in on them and examine them as you dare tell me again that "anyone who marched in that protest marched with people who explicitly stated their support for killing American troops in Iraq."

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[Rich Hunt]

192. ANSWER = post-911

How could Vets for Peace have worked with ANSWER "for many years" when ANSWER was begun after 9/11?

A Call to Join a New Anti-War Coalition:
International A.N.S.W.E.R.
(Act Now to Stop War & End Racism)

Please join us in signing this call:

We join with people all over the world in condemning the horrific killings of thousands of persons in the September 11th attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Our most heartfelt sympathies and condolences are with those whose loved ones were lost or injured on September 11, 2001. At this moment, we would all like to take time to reflect, to grieve, to extend sympathy and condolences to all. But we believe that we must do more. We must act now.

We are assembling International A.N.S.W.E.R. to call for worldwide rallies against war and racism. On September 29, there a national march and rally at the White House in Washington DC, as well as marches on the West Coast of the U.S. and around the world. We call on all people of conscience and progressive organizations to take up this call and organize rallies around the world.

[Tinoire]

218. For someone who thinks they know so much ...

The IAC has been around since 1992 and just who do you think founded ANSWER? If you're the leftist activist you say you are, you should perfectly well know the relation between the IAC, founded in the early 1990s and International ANSWER, which the same people speared to specifically focus on war and racism leaving the IAC to focus more on immigrant rights, Lesbian, Gay & Transgender issues, and all sorts of other domestic leftist issues like Mumia, Peltier, womens' rights, housing, etc.

If you knew my real name and looked real hard, you'd find it among those endorsing International ANSWER; you'd also find the names of some of my fellow Vet for Peace brothers and sisters. But just color us ignorant fools ok? There are at least 5 of us right here at DU sad and very angry at the mis-representations and lies that are being pushed to weaken the anti-war effort.

Here are a few of the IAC actions you might have missed.

BOSTON SATURDAY, APRIL 17, 1999 1 PM: INTERNATIONAL DAY OF DEMONSTRATIONS! U.S. AND NATO OUT OF YUGOSLAVIA! STOP THE BOMBING NOW! MONEY FOR JOBS AND EDUCATION, NOT WAR! PARK ST MARCH TO GOVERNMENT CENTER to join 3pm RALLY FOR PEACE IN YUGOSLAVIA STOP THE BOMBING OF YUGOSLAVIA! MONEY FOR JOBS & EDUCATION, NOT WAR! FROM IRAQ TO YUGOSLAVIA, END THE BOMBING NOW! Called by the International Action Center, the Vigils for the Iraqi People, the Committee for Peace and Human Rights, Community Church of Boston, Jim Casteris, President, Veterans for Peace Boston, and others, as part of coordinated anti-war actions in over 100 cities across the U.S. and around the world. Speakers will include labor leaders, youth leaders, anti-war activists, religious leaders, and representatives of the Serbian-American Alliance of New England.

http://www.iacenter.org/yugdemos.htm

Boston 3/25/00 ! Saturday 12:30 PM: Park Street Station. Demo to demand US/Nato Out of Kosovo/Yugoslavia on War Anniversary PROTEST U.S./NATO OCCUPATION OF KOSOVO ON THE ANNIVERSARY OF THE US/NATO BOMBING OF YUGOSLAVIA Coordinated with demonstrations around the country called for by the International Action Center. Join with representatives from the IAC, the Committee for Peace and Human Rights, the Vigils for the Iraqi People, Veterans for Peace, Serbian Americans of New England, and other peace, community and religious groups to say: The war is not over! US/NATO OUT OF KOSOVO!

http://www.iacenter.org/yugdemos.htm

New York City: Sat., April 17, 12 NOON AT GRAND CENTRAL STATION: ANTI-WAR ACTIVISTS SET INTERNATIONAL DAY OF PROTESTS AGAINST U.S./NATO BOMBING OF YUGOSLAVIA, SAT., APRIL 17 Report-Back

Binghamton,NY— Saturday morning, April 17, 11AM Federal Building: Demonstration against bombing of Yugoslavia. Open microphone, prepared statements for media, petitions, banners and signs. Participating coaliton groups to include Broome County (NY) Council of Churches Peace With Justice, Peace Action of Broome : County, Catholic Charities Justice & Peace Advisory Committee; Opportunites for Broome, Veterans for Peace of Broome County, NY and various church social action groups. Contact # 607 748 8105 Jack Gilroy, Chairman, Broome County Peace With Justice Committe.

Binghamton, NY had its April 17 International Demo against the bombing of Yugoslavia. We had front page coverage this morning and although I was misquoted, they did get the point of the international movement through the IAC. Congratulations, good job getting us together. We had two TV channels carry our story with a variety of folks interviewed in our coalition of faith, Veterans for Peace and Peace Action people. Jack Gilroy Chairman, Broome County Council of Churches Peace With Justice Committee, Veterans for Peace, Justice and Peace Advisory Council of Catholic Charities and Peace Action.

http://www.iacenter.org/yugdemos.htm

Tucson, Arizonaà every THURSDAY 4:30PM.: Protest the Clinton regime's destruction of Yugoslavia and Iraq and starting WW III! And Federal Building, 300 N Congress, Corner Broadway/Congress and Grenada; [e-mail]

Tucson, ArizonaàIn Tucson’s largest anti-war demonstration since the 1991 Gulf War Against Iraq, nearly 300 people turned out Saturday afternoon May 15, to protest Madeleine Albright’s appearance at the University of Arizona. The Secretary of State had been invited to address the graduates. Demonstrators included University students and other Tucsonans called out by the Tucson Peace Action Coalition (Students Against Sweatshops, Pueblo por la Paz, Veterans for Peace, Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom, The Nuclear Resister, Raytheon Peacemakers, Jobs with Justice and others); several score of Serbian émigrés and other peace activists from the metropolitan Phoenix area; and a large group of "spontaneous and self-organized" Chinese students and faculty.
http://www.iacenter.org/albrt_ua.htm">MORE

http://www.iacenter.org/yugdemos.htm

You can find lots more http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Veterans+for+Peace%22++IAC+2000&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&start=10&sa=N">here:

[Rich Hunt]

222. Did I say I didn't know who IAC were?

No, I did not.

So spare me the lecture and the transparent insinuations about my allegiances.

Either ANSWER is wholly IAC or it isn't.

Regardless, there was no ANSWER before 9/11.

P.S. There are a whole lot of peace activists and socialists who don't like IAC / WWP, and I don't know why you're trying to pretend otherwise - I can't go to a meeting or join an online group without hearing the gripes about WWP - from socialists, from peace activists, etc.. Why do you think people joined UFPJ? There are also a whole lot of people who are tired of the smears, investigation / intimidation tactics, and demands for our "credentials".

Talk about McCarthyism. What irony.

[Tinoire]

228. This is regretfully my last post to you for a while

because you've been a bit annoying these last 2 days. Anytime you post to me in the future, I will refer to this post where I am politely telling you that I have no current interest in having this type of dialog. You've been practically hysterical in your answers to Amen and have accused at least 2 people, plus me in another thread, of lying. I can attribute your juvenile posts to age but that won't excuse your attitude on a board where there are 16 year olds posting with 4 times more wisdom and maturity. This last post of yours was mild in comparison to some others but you've just squandered the last of my good will with that little tap dance about the IAC. If you know that ANSWER came from the IAC what was the purpose of post 192? Or was it just done in the hopes that if anyone called you on it you could go for Point Scoring on a technicality?

You fell flat on your face about IAC and ANSWER and it would have been more gracious of you just to not make your point in the first place (since you "already knew") or to simply say "oh, I wasn't aware they'd worked with them for that long".

-------------------
Since UFPJ is joining forces with ANSWER/IAC for the antiwar effort You should quickly run and warn them of the stupidity of their ways since there are "a whole lot of people who are tired of the smears, investigation / intimidation tactics, and demands for our "credentials"."


Since you care so much about UFPJ- you might consider spending less time attacking ANSWER and more time defending UFPJ from the same type of accusations being made to discredit ANSWER. Do you not recognize a smear job when you see one? Or did you just not know that they are going to do this to every and any group speaking out against the war? Or is it just not important to you for whatever reason?

=====
The Next "Peace" Protest Will Be Brought to You By a Castro Groupie
On February 15, many thousands of protesters will assemble within sight of the United Nations building in New York to express their opposition to a war in Iraq. Their efforts will be duplicated in some 300 additional cities throughout North America, Latin America, Europe, Africa, Asia, and the Middle East. This will be the first such protest not organized by the Workers World Party (WWP), an energetic Marxist-Leninist organization that openly supports Kim Jong Il’s brutal dictatorship in North Korea. Instead, it will be run by a group called United For Peace and Justice (UFPJ), whose co-chair Leslie Cagan is an enthusiastic, longtime supporter of yet another Communist despot, Fidel Castro.

Given the manner in which the major media report the contemporary "peace" movement’s activities, the average American would never suspect that it is in fact a movement dominated the selfsame Communists that once marched in support of Stalin, Mao, the Vietcong, the Sandinista Marxists, and the Communist guerrillas in El Salvador; the same America-loathing radicals who, because they passionately deem America the root of all evil in the world, now support Kim and Castro.

<snip>

Consider the aforementioned Leslie Cagan. She is a socialist and longtime activist who, during the past thirty years, has mobilized millions of demonstrators in rallies denouncing our nation’s foreign policies; its military-related spending; and its purportedly virulent racism, sexism, and homophobia. She is a die-hard, pro-Communist radical who proudly aligns her politics with those of Communist Cuba.

<snip>

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=6024

[G_j]

237. We both know that UFPJ and ANSWER

have had some major problems seeing eye to eye in the past. You point out that they worked through enough of this to come together for the 10/25 demo. UFPJ does not represent a bunch of spineless dupes. If they were able to get beyond their differences in view of the bigger picture we should consider this to be an example of how we need to stop undermining each other and keep an eye "on the prize". It's not about cutting ANSWER out of the picture but strengthening other voices on the left for more balance. In another post it may have sounded like I meant to bypass ANSWER, but really it's about building up other voices in the movement. There is a hell of a lot to learn from ANSWERs experience. If people think ANSWER has been too dominating then they should should consider getting involved in adding to and not subtracting from our collective movement.

on edit, this is obviously not about the conversation you were having above, but responding to a point you made in your last post. :-)

[Tinoire]

244. Those are excellent points

I don't understand the vitriol against ANSWER from Democrats except from people who need to undermine it for whatever reason. Currently we have 2 reasons among the Democrats- Yugoslavia/Clark (since IAC led several international protests against that and they were sizable ones in Europe) and Palestine (an issue some people don't want to have any visibility in the US).

I heard the complaint also that there's some animosity from people who feel that ANSWER disrupts their own grass-roots efforts. To that all I can say is WTF. ANSWER held less than a half dozen marches this entire year- what kept people from organizing protests the other 350 days?

It makes no sense... Absolutely boggles the mind.


But hey, cheer up and check this out: DUers (Symbolman and crew) at the ANSWER protest in San Francisco... They were a HUGE hit and we can't wait to meet up with them again! When we get our pics posted, I'll PM you the link so you can appreciate how kempt we looked ;)



XXX, left, dressed as President Bush, (Symbolman), center, dressed as Vice President Dick Cheney and XXX, dressed as Secretary of State Colin Powell, toss out fake dollar bills to protesters in front of the San Francisco City Hall during an anti-war march in San Francisco, Saturday Oct. 25, 2003. (AP Photo/Jakub Mosur)

[G_j]

255. when it comes down to it

it seems there is a certain reluctance from the more moderate sector of the left to get their feet wet as far as demonstrating.I'm not sure why but I think it goes way beyond ANSWER. It's like people still don't want to believe what is happening and hope it's just a bad dream. I truly hope this changes, the Oct demo made news round the world and it could have been much larger. We can't afford not to use ALL the non-violent tools at our disposal. Street protests are just one tool in the box. We don't have time NOT to do EVERYTHING we can to turn the tide IMO. That also means dealing with thorny issues such as Palastine, Cuba, Columbia etc. Looking at what can be done to improve situations as the Congo and other African countries suffer. etc. It also means dealing with Globalization and "free" trade. Unfortunately these are the very things that "moderates" often don't want to acknowlege. I'm trying to convince people to educate themselves and to really look at where the 'status quo' is taking this planet. It's life or death. One election will not save us, especially if we don't demand REAL change. Centrists say that won't happen, (real change it seems is too far left) but what they won't say is what we will do to save this planet from an increasing suffering and destruction that is close to hitting a critical mass.


---ps, I saved that pic, it's wonderful! Can't wait to see more.
.

[Tinoire]

258. THAT is a spot-on post!!

It does go far beyond ANSWER and I wish people would just be honest about it instead of attacking the organizer. It really matters not to protest against just the Iraq war, we have to protest against all injustice because it's all related.

And let me tell you again how ecstatic I am to find another Starhawk fan. She spoke at the local synagogue about Israel/Palestine and it was one of the most inspiring, heart-felt talks I've ever heard.

Peace

[diamond14]

261. it's directly related to the police violence against Patriotic Americans

not so much in this recent Oct. 25 March, but in the pre-war Marches, there was a LOT of violence toward protestors...

you can read the animosity toward anyone who brings that up, here on this thread...two people are continuously attacking me for bringing up my life-threating injuries from the March 22 rally in DC...they want you to think that it didn't happen....they want to degrade protestors as much as possible, marginalize them, they want to portray any group that can organize Marches as 'communists, Stalinists, killers of American troops' and more

PEOPLE ARE SCARED. I know lots of people who wouldn't come (Oct. 25)because of the police brutality. There was a HUGE turnout of police, a MAJOR army of three police forces (DC Police, FBI, National Park Police, and maybe more) lining every street on both sides, heavily armed with major killing weapons, clubs, baseball bats, and large cans of mace, and in all the nearby blockaded parks there were military personnel playing soccer (which added several hundred soldiers, just in case, although they tried to make it look "sporty")...and supported by trucks, horses, cars, and motorcycles...there were snipers on the roofs...this is certainly frightening to many regular middle class Americans...it was to me...it scares people and is totally unnecessary....the scary police presence is designed to SCARE away everyone...

and then we brave American Patriots return to the DU board, and get TRASHED...you can read it right here on this thread....although some are standing up to those doing the trashing...I read few others who will respond to these nasty people in our own community...even when they LAUGH at the Germans killing Jews, so far, I am the only person who called that poster on his/her sick humor...the hate on this board is sickening, and it reflects the same attitude towards encouraging more police brutality against protestors...some people right here WANT THE POLICE TO BEAT AND INJURE PROTESTORS...

[Rich Hunt]

262. more lies

I'm not taking anything back. You continue to misrepresent my views. I make logical arguments and you and "Amen" respond with smears. I do consider that immature, no matter how you try to play the "age" card.

I said nothing inaccurate about IAC / ANSWER / WWP, and you're still (willfully?) misrepresenting my arguments.

It most certainly wasn't a "tap dance" about the IAC - that's a very clear projection on your part. People have said that ANSWER was a "coalition" and that it wasn't IAC. Your post certainly looked that way as well. I don't recall any post of yours in which you said ANSWER was IAC until I pointed out that ANSWER started after 9/11. The record bears this out. In another post, you said you worked with ANSWER "for years". Why did you say ANSWER and not IAC?

I have defended UFPJ elsewhere. So have all of the socialists, communists and other leftists who are aligned with UFPJ. Someone in another thread explained the practicality of UFPJ endorsing a protest - you can't just let ANSWER run the show. Many, many leftists are and have been critical of WWP, and there are plenty of documents online to back that up (and no, they don't come from people like David Corn and Todd Gitlin). Peace activists aren't very fond of parties who really don't promote peace - they don't want their views misrepresented.

And you ARE smearing me. You made it clear that you went into the archives to find some "dirt" that might out me as a conservative Democrat, and then you misquoted a post in which you claim I said that I was "too young to vote for Reagan", which is just laughable. I said that I wished I hadn't been too young to vote AGAINST Reagan.

Your remarks about my age are bigoted, elitist and irrelevant. Please stick to the topic without playing the age card, or the number of posts card. Arguments should stand on their own merits. I merely said that ANSWER started after 9/11 - I don't see what is so "immature" or illogical about that.

http://ww3report.com/warmovement.html

In response to the attacks on him because of the above essay, Bill Weinberg told it like it is, and every principled ANSWER critic of the left ought to save this one, because it will be handy:

In responding to the three most egregious attacks against me, I will attempt to bring the discussion back to the actual issues.


1. I am Red-Baiting

This one is predictable, but misses the point. I didn't make the standard liberal critique that Workers World is Communist (as if this were some brilliant revelation). While I dislike Lenin and despise Stalin, Communism per se is sort of like Christianity, producing figures as favorable as Rosa Luxembourg or as unfavorable as Pol Pot depending on the interpretation.

I am not even opposed to the participation in the anti-war movement of Marxist-Leninist groups that do not support genocide and do not seek to dominate coalitions--such as the Socialist Workers Party (from which Workers World broke off in 1956 because SWP failed to support the Soviet invasion of Hungary!). I disgree with SWP about almost everything except opposition to the occupation of Iraq, but I wouldn't call for kicking them out of a coalition.

My fundamental opposition is not to Communism, but to fascism--and, like Stalin between 1939 and 1941, Workers World has made an alliance with fascism, in one of its contemporary guises (that of Milosevic's violent ethno-nationalist extremism).

Some have also assumed that because I have strong feelings about the genocide (or near-genocide) in ex-Yugoslavia (some of which was also carried out by US-backed Croatian neo-fascists, I readily acknowledge), then I supported the US military strikes against Serbia. This assumption is really utterly demoralizing. The "ethnic cleansing" of the Bosnian Muslims and Kosovar Alabanians was wrong for the very same reason that the US bombardment of Serbia was wrong, and vice versa: because attacks on civilians are not acceptable. Why is this so hard to understand?

Some also pointed out (in an actual argument, rather than a shoot-the-messenger attack, to their credit) that since the Democratic Party largely supported the Yugoslavia and Iraq bombardments, and the Iraq sanctions, that it is also "genocide-apologist"--and there are Democrats among the leadership of United for Peace and Justice (UFPJ), the anti-war coalition which I consider minimally legitmate. Could be, but as far as I know there are no groups in the UFPJ coalition that are organizationally linked to the Democratic Party, and no leaders who are full-time party hacks. Going through the UFPJ member organizations (listed on ther website), the only parties or party-linked groups I see are local Green Party chapters and the Young Communist League, USA.

2. I am a Government Agent

This accusation borders on the hilarious, given that I have spent the last several months risking my butt to report on US imperialism's war crimes in Colombia and elsewhere in the Andes. But unfortunately it is no laughing matter. People have been killed over such allegations. I invoke the memory of Roque Dalton, the Salvadoran poet and revolutionary who was assassinated by his own fellow revolutionaries in 1975 following completely spurious charges that he was a CIA agent. If anyone has any evidence that I am a government agent, I'd like to see it. Otherwise, I will thank them to eat their malodorous canards.

Using these kinds of bullying and dishonest tactics to suppress dissent is typical of the very totalitarian bent that I decried in my essay. The fact that these accusations came from several people (not just a lone crank) makes me even more convinced that the anti-war movement has become an ethical sewer.

[bearfartinthewoods]

188. here you go

it was this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=598599

Salon.com:

"According to an ANSWER pamphlet, 'Counter-revolution & Resistance in Iraq,' 'The anti-war movement here and around the world must give its unconditional support to the Iraqi anti-colonial resistance.

[Name removed]

206. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tinoire]

224. Thanks :)

I posted a huge excerpt from the pamphlet itself before seeing this...

Is certain people's problem with the word unconditional do you think?

Conditional support... Of what worth is that? That's like conditional love.... I'll love you if... I'll support the resistance effort if...

Honestly, what kind of resistance do you support for the Iraqi people? Letter writing? Faxes? Holding hands in front of Bremer's HQ looking mournful and sad?

The Iraqis are dealing with people who have littered their country with depleted uranium for 12 years and caused horrors like this: http://www.firethistime.org/extremedeformities.htm

If someone ever, ever did that to us in this country, I would resist by any means necessary and hope that justice-loving people around the world would support my right to resist just as the French supported our right to slaughter the British over 200 years ago. Otherwise, what right do you leave me? The right to passively accept until the aggressor has a miraculous change of heart after they've plundered my counry's resources and destroyed its identity?

My unconditional support is to peace and justice and right now, the US and its soldiers are not on the side of peace and justice.

How far the Iraqis will have to go will depend purely on the Bush Administration which has already shown that they will lie, kill, and destroy everything in their way to control other countries' resources. That is simply out of my/our hands. I just want this war over, the occupation stopped and every single soldier over there brought back home before any more people get hurt- on either side...
Bush is killing those soldiers... not the Iraqis.


What are people going to say when the soldiers themselves follow their parents and friends and start coming to these protests?
You remember what they said in the 60s, they'll just say it again but in the long run it won't matter because American people, overall, are good people and the young who won't be scared off by charges of Commie loving

[bearfartinthewoods]

225. Honestly, what kind of resistance do you support for the Iraqi people?

i support the same sort of resistance for them that i support for any people. that support does not extend to blowing up the UN offices or
the Red Cross or other Iraqi's...not even Americans.

i realize that isn't a universally held position here but it's what i believe in. i believe that the iraqi's that don't want Americans in their country should protest, organize work stopages, sit ins or any other peaceful protest they care to.

but i can't go along with unconditional support when that means blowing up the freaking red cross who are there for one reason only..to help.

ON EDIT: this puppy's getting hard to load. can you point me to the full text? i'd like to read it.

[Tinoire]

236. Just PMd the URL to you

but it's right on ANSWER's front page also (http://www.internationalanswer.org/ )

http://www.internationalanswer.org/pdf/iraqresist.pdf

Peace

[Tinoire]

248. Are you so sure it was the Iraqis that blew up the UN offices or even

the Red Cross offices? I'm honestly not. Especially the UN offices at that rather delicate time when the UN had gone there against our Fuehrer's wishes.

I am not so sure about the effectiveness of peaceful protests... Other than Ghandhi's, I know of none that worked and some of the protests in India at that time weren't peaceful at all. I'm not much of an expert on peaceful protests and if you have information, I would defer to you.

People love to talk about Martin Luther King's peaceful protests (where dogs were sent to viciously attack people and homes burnt down, schools blown up) but what they forget is that right next to King you had the more radical groups. The older people were with King and the younger, angrier people were flocking to Malcolm X ready to rock the s#^% out of this country if that's what it took. Thank God we had television for the whole world to see America's shame and that enough White People (not by that many by a long shot) said NO to racism. It's like with the Palestinians, people keep wringing their hands saying "they should use non-violent methods"- that would be great except that when they did, it was non-effective- no one ever heard of them, their plight was totally ignored and they were at the total mercy of the occupiers.

Non-violent resistance is not new to the Palestinian people. During the first Palestinian uprising, residents of the Christian town of Beit Sahour collectively refused to pay taxes to Israel. They borrowed an American slogan, “No taxation without Representation.” Rishmawi, who was a high school junior at the time, said Israel was baffled. In the end, Israel confiscated $4.5 million in goods and property, an amount far more than what it was owed. During the Oslo “peacemaking” period, non-violent protest against land confiscation emerged. Residents from Beit Sahour and Bethlehem took on Israel??s construction of 15,000 housing units that would accommodate approximately 35,000 immigrant Jews, completing a ring of 28 settlements around Bethlehem that would prevent its expansion.

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/pubs/20020606ftr.html

Our hearts, I believe, are too hard for non-violence. We view that as a form of weakness- especially in our foot-ball society.

Anyway... I have no disagreement with you... I don't like seeing anyone die.

Here's a photo of Ron Kovic (Born on the 4th of July- remember that movie? That's him) . He spoke in San Francisco Saturday, right after Cynthia McKinney...



I love this photo: San Francisco... Saturday... Jones Street



Here's another aspect of IAC/ANSWER that I love- it's international and putting an end to war has to be an international effort. I don't think it can happen any other way...




Seoul, Korea


Protest against Bush in Australia... Wow dudes, just let them have a go! ;)

[JanMichael]

103. It wasn't, good catch.

I'm not a fan of many of ANSWER's harder Left organizers. That said I am fully behind the idea of protesting, period.

I wish that, wish, that a less "offensive" organisation was a catalyst for helping us take to the streets en masse but the fact is that ANSWER (Through some bullying tactics I might add.) is it so far. Yes United for Peace and Justice are co-sponsers but the fact is that ANSWER always steals the spotlight.

Personally I think a lot of the criticism about ANSWER is less their backing organisations but sour grapes.

If we don't like ANSWER getting (with much help) 100k on the streets then we'd better either do it ourselves, go to "their" events anyway, or politely shut the fuck up.

Like them or not they hate Bush as much as anyone else, politics do make strange bedfellows I suppose.


PS~ I bet some here would be surprised to know that nice polite Socialists like myself are not really well liked by totalitarian types. Hell when I was in DC on 3-15 I had some talks with RCP and ANSWER folks and, it seemed, as far as they were concerned I was a far Right Conservative. Go figure:shrug:

[Blue_Chill]

119. Funny, that's my point.

Anytime someone has attacked ANSWER people have pretended they are attacking the protestors. That's what this thread is based on.

But hey why not test it, go find me the threads attacking DUers and not ANSWER.

[JanMichael]

122. This is probably my fault.

I was really meaning to point out the new hostilities popping up between some "Centrist" Du'ers and the Farther Left DU'ers. It seemed, to me, connected to the friction over the recent protests.

So while I don't mind taking crap for being vague (Which is debatable), there have been spin-offs, so we can once again agree to not be in agreement.

Oh and it hasn't been 100% ANSWER either, some people here doubt the efficacy/legitimacy of protest, period,

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

67. riiiight

:eyes:

I've never seen anyone advocate for the death of an American troop on DU but for those that were pro-war.

There were numerous groups represented in Washington DC and YOU conveniently chose to underscore ANSWER'S activities.

Come to think of it, I haven't once seen you advocate anything that is actually part of the Dem party platform...I've only ever seen you criticize DU'ers.

[DealsGapRider]

74. Then you should pay more attention.

I have consistently made clear my opposition to the death penalty, support for gay marriage and benefits, support for soft drug legalization, support for increased foreign humanitarian aid, support for the separation of church and state, etc. What I am NOT is some foaming at the mouth revolutionary who thinks Republicans were responsible for the goddamned San Francisco earthquake and that the only morally correct position is to be to the left of Chomsky.

Oh and here's what ANSWER said: "The anti-war movement here and around the world must give its unconditional support to the Iraqi anti-colonial resistance."

Doesn't get much more clear than that.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

77. Where does it say kill our troops? Is it not their country?

[Blue_Chill]

120. Is it not their country? Well IT IS NOW!

Thanks to the very troops you seem to excuse killing by stating "is it not their country". Before those troops got there the country belonged to Saddam.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

126. I excuse nothing. We don't belong there and are getting killed

I'm equal opportunity on this. I object to us killing them and them killing us. What's next? Free China?

[Blue_Chill]

158. Try thinking.

I'm equal opportunity on this. I object to us killing them and them killing us

Who are we killing at the moment? The only death is being caused by tentions created by those that seek to blow things up all over Iraq. And in case you haven't noticed while living in dream land the killers in Iraq aren't just going after Americans. They are going after Iraqi police and citizens.

This isn't the us against them you seem to need, this is terrorists who in most cases are not even Iraqi against anything that isn't a Islamic oppressive goverment.

[Terwilliger]

129. I have to give credit to the CIA

that brought the Ba'athists to power in 1958

OnEdit: correction

[BurtWorm]

78. You went further than that, you charming person, you

You wrote, and I quote:

"How could anyone in good conscience march in a protest organized by these goons? Is there a line, ANY line, that anti-war groups can cross and receive the opprobrium of liberals in this country?"

What the hell kind of "leftism/liberalism" is that?

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blue_Chill]

121. Do you ever do anything other then lob accusations?

First you went on and on about the "new DUers are conservative" and now you are accusing people of being trolls.

[Forkboy]

142. Good thing she doesn't send out nasty PM's as well

that would really suck.

[Blue_Chill]

159. Here you go

[Name removed]

167. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blue_Chill]

169. Turning right?

You mean actually having democrats on a board created for democrats? In case you haven't noticed this board supports the democratic party over all others. It should come as no surprise that democrats would be drawn here during a crucial election period.

So sorry that a stream of real world influence has burst your "socialism is cool" bubble.

[LeahMira]

102. Isn't diversity great???

I know why I attended the protest last Saturday. I want the U.S. out of Iraq and Bush out of the White House.

I'm sure there were others with their own agendas in attendance, but from what I could see everyone, even those with additional "issues," were united in their wish to see the U.S. out of Iraq and Bush out of the White House.

I sort of resent the implication that I and others who were protesting are such sheep that we take marching orders from ANSWER. Do you, and others, really think that? Do you really think that in a group of at least tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people, all of us are on the same wavelength about everything? Do you think that if tomorrow ANSWER came out with some position that I don't like at all that I would be quiet and support that position nonetheless just because ANSWER "said so?"

I am grateful to the ANSWER folks for the tremendous amount of hard work and time that went into organizing this protest. The ANSWER volunteers at the Metro stops and on the corners along the way were, to a person, polite and helpful. I now trust that any protest they organize will be organized well and things will run smoothly all around.

That does not mean that I agree with the ANSWER position on the Israel-Palestine issue or on Mumia Abu-Jamal or on anything else they might have on their website. I might agree, but then I might not.

See, that's what I thought differentiated liberals from "freepers." We don't all parrot the same lines about everything.

Isn't diversity great? Isn't that freedom worth keeping?

[BurtWorm]

110. Don't confuse me with that person I quoted. PLEASE!

I have enough troubles as it is. Thank you!

:hi:

[Blue_Chill]

127. Sometimes it isn't. At time (like these) diversity is really ugly.

I went to the first DC anti-Iraqi war protest and came away feeling ill. I was really happy about the idea of the event so I got up early and prepared to freeze my ass off.

Sadly I found myself surrounded by "destroy america" and "communism is the only path to justice" crap.

This is why you didn't see turn outs from catholic churches and other pro-peace organizations. They looked into ANSWER and saw that it was dirty. I should have done the same.

[BurtWorm]

145. I'm for inclusion

which is why I stuck my neck out and defended your right (among others) to criticize A.N.S.W.E.R. on this board. And this is the thanks I get! A wish for less inclusion!

[Blue_Chill]

160. I'm just speaking the truth

I'm not saying that they should be stopped by the police or anything, I'm just saying that some groups screw thing up. They make it easy for the majority of the nation and media to write us off as whackos because of the images of communists calling for the destruction of america.

The protests would hav ebeen far more successful had they really been about one issue instead of a "A hate america and this is why" march.

[BurtWorm]

180. You're entitled to your opinion

And there is some truth in it. But the Iraq War Resistance in the US has a dilemma: it needs bodies. A.N.S.W.E.R., whatever you may think of it, does draw bodies, in the tens and hundreds of thousands. I think this is less because of who they are and more because they're the only mass protest game in town. Many people in this thread have pointed out that the Democratic Party--even the labor movement, now that I think of it--has not been front and center in organizing against this war. A.N.S.W.E.R. has stepped into the gap. Them's the breaks. So the choice finally is, ignore A.N.S.W.E.R. and be ignored, or use the platform A.N.S.W.E.R. provides to add your voice to the overlapping, occasionally contradictory voices in resistance to the war.

But I still insist you ought to have the freedom here to criticize A.N.S.W.E.R. Democracy shouldn't stop at the center. It should permeate through the whole spectrum.

[not systems]

138. Clear this up please.

"The anti-war movement here and around the world must give its
unconditional support to the Iraqi anti-colonial resistance."

Your interpreting "anti-colonial resistance" as meaning people
killing US troops.

I can look at this phrase and see it as meaning the unemployed
protesters asking for jobs, the Iraqs on the CPA calling for a
quick return of Iraqi soverenty or Kofi Annan calling for quick
elections.

These are all part of the "Iraqi anti-colonial resistance" and
supporting any of these is not unamerican.

You are over reading this as a call to harm troops and saying
you reading of this text is only reasonable one.

I disagree it is not clear at all that this is what you think it is.

[Blue_Chill]

171. It was clear until you spun it.

"The anti-war movement here and around the world must give its
unconditional support to the Iraqi anti-colonial resistance."

You can't "over read" unconditional. The word is what it is.

[DealsGapRider]

173. puh-leaze.

There can be only one interpretation of that statement. ANSWER is calling on everyone to support the armed attacks on coalition personnel. It doesn't get much clearer than that, and any attempt to interpret that statement in a more charitable light is simply dishonest.

[not systems]

181. simply dishonest.

Find the word "armed" in that quote.

It is not there.

Find the word "attacks" in that quote.

It is not there.

Your one true interpretation is based on two word
not in the text being interpreted.

Your least "charitable light" does help make your
point so I guess it is the only one for you.

Clear or not.

[DealsGapRider]

183. Fine, even if you're delusional enough...

...to believe they were talking about non-violent resistance, you'd have to acknowledge that the majority of people, including swing voters, read exactly what I read in that statement. So, ANSWER has succeeded in associating many sincere Iraq war opponents with those who want to see our troops killed. Congratulations! That will help sway public opinion to our side!

And note that they did not explicitly condemn the violence against US troops, which practically begged for people to interpret their statement exactly as I have done.

[not systems]

229. Agreed.

I don't know what they intended.

I agree a clear statement would be better.

I was pointing out that your reading added two words that were not there.

Your two words were the worst spin possible for a mainstream appeal.

It is very easy to make the case you made about what they said.

Anyone against the general idea of peace would make the same case.

People will buy it and not care what the meaning of "is is".

I don't know anything about the source of the document
quoted or what process was used to create it.

I am done opining on the subject of ANSWER.

I will go to there next rally assuming a more "mainstream"
group has not emerged to organize marches.

[bearfartinthewoods]

202. i've been taught, here at DU, that

"all" is the default.

if they meant all 'peaceful' they should have said "peaceful'. they didn't specify. so since all is the default that means armed resistance as well.

the armed attacks have been going on for some time. the UN office was blown up weeks ago. they have had lots of time to qualify the statement if they meant peaceful, wouldn't you say?

if they don't support the armed faction of the iraqi resistence, they missed a great opportunity to claify their statement last saturday.

[bearfartinthewoods]

186. if i were writing for answer

and i was trying to speak of the people of whom you wrote, while NOT including the suicide bombers who attack the UN and red cross, i would simply add the words 'peacful efforts'

but they didn't did they. they called for unconditional support for the resistance.

if the suicide bombers are not a part of the resistance, what are they?

[not systems]

232. agreed.

The words "peacful efforts" or "legitimate resistance" could help.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ArkDem]

204. >pass it on to Vets for Peace... They'd love to have a few words

Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed! Oh, what a give-away. Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about. Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

69. It's because we have a bunch of freepers posting pretending they are

centrists.

It's TOTALLY fucking obvious.

[KG]

72. amen, sister.

[Forkboy]

75. It should be obvious

but apparently it isn't obvious enough.

Some of the complainers in these threads have yet to show even a smidgen of support to Dem/liberal causes.

Go figure :shrug:

[mmonk]

76. how do you determine who is pretending?

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BurtWorm]

82. You're so naughty!

And your naughtiness lifted a huge scale out of my eye. Boy do I feel dumb.

[mmonk]

87. Well I'm

for reforming healthcare, support the clean air act, for affirmative action, against structural deficits, for private property rights, against empire and the Iraq war, against Communism but support some socialism, pro free enterprise, for the bill of rights, for choice....
Am I outed yet? (I need to know when I'm not centrist).

[Tinoire]

84. Amen. Amen!

One particularly irritating one got tomb-stoned yesterday :) May many more follow!

It's so obvious you have to wonder about the people who pretend it isn't so. Conservative Dems my ass!

[BurtWorm]

86. The scary thing is

you can't tell them apart!

[Tinoire]

92. That's the very scary thing

Just what is the difference between a Conservative Dem and a Moderate Republican? I still haven't figured that one out :shrug:

On edit: Is it only maybe that one still likes Bush and the other would prefer some other Republican? A personality thing only? :shrug:

[jonnyblitz]

174. exactly. thank you. n/t

[MrPrax]

99. DU has been in the spotlight lately...

What with Rush, the mainstream papers, the Clark entry, Freeperland self-destructing, the demo race winding to a close and the general feeling of frustration and 'the sky is falling, the sky is falling' angst.
More and more people are 'checking' it out...

Ergo...a lot more...um...'diversity'

DU is actually becoming a phenomenon and the fact it is so accepting of right of center to far left opinions is a healthy thing...
My biggest fear is not some people uncomfortable with ANSWER (or letting down the troops!! whatever that means?)...but the board will become so huge and unwielding as to render it useless...

[Capn Sunshine]

118. I'm not surpised at all

Everyone really really sucks.

[BurtWorm]

125. Well said, Capn.

And I include myself in that number. ;)

[JanMichael]

128. I'll second that.

I think the insanity that's engulfing, or has engulfed, our country is making just about all of us just a tad loopy.

I know it's effected me more profoundly than I could have EVER believed back in the nasty month of November, 2000.

Perhaps we all need to have a fruit roll-up and contemplate 2004 going badly. Yech, that's a nasty thought.

Same boat whether we like it or not:-)

[IndianaGreen]

130. Many of the self-described liberals in DU are quite conservative

We have seen people berate gays, women, and people of color, simply because they refused to sit quietly in the back of the bus and accept the status-quo.

Don't you believe me? Check this:

1. How many here hate having gays lecture them about full equal rigths for the GLBT community, including civil unions and gay marriage?

2. How many here supported the ban on the misnamed "partial-birth" abortion bill, and then accused the opponents of the ban of being "radical leftists" as one of them posted in DU.

3. How many hated an outspoken African-American Congresswoman for saying that Bush had foreknowledge of an Al-Qaeda strike against the US prior to 9/11, and for speaking the truth about the disproportionate influence of AIPAC in Democratic Party politics?

[Blue_Chill]

161. Next time give us names and leave the spin out of it.

BTW - #3 seems to me like you jumped to the racism conclusion.

[Terwilliger]

168. funny you should respond

:shrug:

[Blue_Chill]

172. If you say so.

But hey you hate women too, I saw you on the abortion threads, and what people wrote about you.


Note: Neither of us actually hate women, the above statement is meant to make fun of those who throw such accusations.

[Forkboy]

215. lol

[quaker bill]

134. Radicals run protests

Centrists have generally watched on them C-Span.

While I am by no means a radical on every issue, I have been radical anti-Raygun - Bush - Bush revolution, and radical anti-war for a very long time.

There was a time when protests against this stuff, like the arming of Saddam, deployment of first strike nuclear weapons, Iran-Contra, School of the Americas, and so on included only a very small group of people. I can recall protesting this stuff in crowds that looked more like the current freeper rallies, say a half dozen or so.

The peace movement in town started last year at the first mention of War in Iraq as a half dozen people meeting in the back of a coffee shop. It grew to thousands. We are happy for all the company.

Don't be suprised when the organizers are radicals, they were the ones with the energy to sustain the movement during the 80's. No doubt, some support other causes that I do not agree with. But we were all on one page against war in Iraq.

If you are looking for a different flavor of rhetoric, get out there and organize the events, pull the groups together, find the speakers, get on with it.

[JanMichael]

137. The most sensible thing I've heard today, thanks.

"If you are looking for a different flavor of rhetoric, get out there and organize the events, pull the groups together, find the speakers, get on with it."

You are SO right.

Plus, I have to add this, I was just a kid when the 80's issues hit the fan, I don't think I really understood those radicals that blocked semis loade with death and got arrested for it.

Now I do. Sure I'm 35 now but I'm still a neophite protestor. Once in DC does not a radical make.

Thank you for you efforts. I know that doesn;t mean much but that's all I've got.


BTW: I will push the CONTRA CRIMES till either they all go do hard time or they all die of old age. This will never end.

[BackDoorMan]

140. No reason to stop...got to just keep it moving!

AND IT WILL!!

[Misinformed01]

184. Kick

I couldn't believe it when I came back to DU and found this 2/3rds of the way down page one of GD.

[Junkdrawer]

194. This Admin has a disaster far greater that Vietnam ever thought of being..

and their answer is to make casualties classified, and restrict press access to all "bad news".

Does anyone here think they want a united Anti-War front? Does anyone question what they would do to prevent that from happening?

[G_j]

230. yes

we are talking about a major five alarm emergency. Do we really have a choice? To not form a united front means we all LOSE.

[JanMichael]

253. Well...I'm happy that we've all had a grand time bashing each other.

However I would like to make a formal request, as the author of this thread, that this thread be locked.

BTW my comment is hardly a "kick" because it's become apparent that even when this thread slides to page #2 it invariably jumps back up.

Please...{b]KILL IT!

[G_j]

257. oops!

I just added another post, I'll honor your wishes and let it die now for my part. :-)

peace