If the nightmare happens, and Bush wins

[quinnox]

I'm curious how many think there really will be a massive exodus from the U.S. Like tens of thousands of people leaving on account of Bush. Putting aside the difficulties in reality that such a move actually takes, (you can't just pick up and go to another country, it's a long drawn out process)

Do people think this will really happen?

[Sagan]

1. I'll go..

I don't care how long it takes or how hard it is. I'm NOT going to raise my children to be stormtroopers for the Bush Oil Empire.

[elfwitch]

2. I agree

Because the damage they will do with four more years will not be easily reversed. The only hope would be to get out. It may be a long process, but if you have your children's futures to think of, anything you can do to protect them is warrented.

[zonmoy]

28. were will you go

where will you go to get away from fanatics bent on world conquest.

[theivoryqueen]

3. No.

I hope, all kidding aside, that it will take a lot more to oust real patriots from their country. It'll be awful, no doubt, but until Ashcroft actually starts expatriating people for dissenting opinions, I think it'll look a lot more like the civil disobedience activities in the '60's and early '70's. Think Kent State.

[E Pluribus Unum]

4. Its not going to happen. Most people are just talkers.

I'm staying put.

[quinnox]

10. I agree

I think it's a lot of talk, and no action. And I am not trying to be offensive, this is what I truly believe.

And if Bush does win, I will compare the number of emigrants in that year, and I bet it won't increase hardly at all.

Now I am hoping this nightmare (Bush re-elected) won't occur, but I think I would be proven right by cold, hard statistics.

[tom_paine]

23. I'm afraid I agree, EPU

The "fight or flee" impulse requires a strong external drive (or an internal one that, as you noticed, most people do not have).

Most people will not make that decsion until Imperial Amerika finally starts TRULY "trickling down" upon the heads of the Serfs, which will probably begin during the later part of the reign of Emperor Jeb.

(the fish rots from the head down, read a history of Imperial Rome and see how first it was the upper ecehlons that tasted Caeser's wrath)

[Clete]

5. Instead of fleeing when things get bad,

we should be forming a shadow government, a new Constitution and such because this government, which has been changed under our noses, into something we don't recognize, will eventually go down in flames like all governments like this do and we need something to replace it.

[keopeli]

6. More people will move without changing citizenship

People who leave the US because of Bush are very proud Americans. They won't, by and large, give up their citizenship. This means that they will be back, and their kids will probably return too.

If Bush is re-elected next year, it's hard to predict what will happen. But, I don't believe people will leave because B* is re-elected. It's what will happen in 2006 and 2007 that will make people leave. We'll have a draft, we'll have a financial crisis, we'll have almost martial law (predictions) and it is this environ that will cause people to leave.

[Flying_Pig]

7. I do. I would expect that Canada would, in recognition that the U.S.

had turned into a fascist dictatorship, welcome those who sought to escape it, and I'll bet some European countries would do the same. And it's not THAT hard to leave. There are "ways" to make one's self quite at home in Canada or Mexico, not to mention Europe, without having to go through all of the "normal" channels. There's some risk doing it that way, but it may not be as bad as the risk of staying here and watching your children drafted to fight their wars, or to be marched into concentration camps.

[ShaneGR]

8. No

Immigration, selling everything you own, moving to a foreign country..... won't happen.

[Bluzmann57]

9. It won't happen here

I have been roundly criticized on these boards for saying this, but I'll keep saying it anyway, people who leave because of the regime...er the administration, are cowardly. I choose to stay and fight. This is my country and I won't go down without a fight. If more people would stand and speak out, then we can, and will make a difference. Eventually the media will notice and really start reporting on the incompetence, if not outright criminality of these people. You can't let these people win and turn the USA into a third world country and/or a Nazi police state.

[Semi_subversive]

18. I'm with you Bluzmann57.

This is my place and I won't give up on it!

[Petrodollar Warfare]

11. There was an earlier thread on this, but IMO, economics is the driver...

...and that really depends on what happens to the US economy over the next 12-18 months. My biggest concern is a real disorderly "dollar panic" stemming from any number of potential triggers. (ie. Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac problems that create a credit crunch/implosion of housing market, or perhaps further momentum to the euro as an oil transaction currency - something Putin mentioned Russia might do). Of course such a crisis could occur after the 2004 election, and I am not envious of whoever is running the country during such an event. With a Democrat in power, it is less likely that our Civil Liberties will be eviscerated (ie. Ashcroft), but it will not easy or pretty...

IMHO, any exodus of Americans will probably be driven by lack of jobs/economics, with politics as a minor secondary factor. The problem if my scenario occurs? If the dollar rapidly devalues/collaspses, people will not have their current level of financial assets to move elsewhere, ie. Canada, Europe, whereever. (I'm buying gold just in case - Canadian Maple Leafs)...but I do think most folks would still keep their American citizenship if they moved for economic factors, and hope to return once the "Great Correction" works it way out...(but there could be a "brain drain" out of the US for those who are highly skilled workers/researchers/scientists, etc.)

Secondly, their is also a distinct possability that Bush could win in 2004, but then be forced out just like Nixon during his 2nd term due to some sort of scandal. (ie. 9/11 fall-out or anyone of the numerous scandals that have been suppressed to date re Iraq, the outing of CIA agents, etc, which could be unearthed only if the media did its job). I honestly don't think America could survive another 4-year term under this administration without a financial crisis similar to the early 1930s. Some *real* Republicans seem to sensing this same thing... Bottom line, Americans will not want to leave unless they believe they can better provide for their families elsewhere.

[raysr]

13. Bush Bros Doing God's Work

http://www.daily-journal.com/content/?id=36822 The thumpers are in nirvana!!! I listened to the husband of the woman in Florida on Larry King last nite. The only reason father wants her on the tube is he's getting $700,000 a month or something from the thumpers! Sorry about thread placement.

[On the Road]

12. Even Though A Bush Reelection Would be Terrible for the Country

Economically speaking, when America sneezes the whole world catches cold. Prospects are not going to be particularly better off anywhere else.

[Bandit]

16. Saw a thread here a few days ago saying Canada had a huge surplus

for this year and expected a bigger one next year. They don't have a huge war machine going at the present though. They have universal health care so their citizens can spend more productive hours making a living and paying taxes other than in the emergency room.

[RichM]

14. No. It's not all that easy to get a job abroad. Europe has plenty of

unemployment (officially more than the US has, though in reality it's about the same). They're not going to welcome Americans to take their scarce jobs, unless you're considering positions where special skills are involved.

[TreasonousBastard]

17. On the other hand...

money talks. Any country will take you in if you have a few bucks to spend.

Tuscany or Paris means lots of bucks. A few places in Central America , or maybe Bulgaria, will take you in on your Social Security check.

[RichM]

20. Who wants to live in Bulgaria? Or sunny El Salvador? Anyone up for

some easy livin' in Bolivia (recent revolution) or Argentina (economic collapse)? Oh boy, sign me up!!

(Actually, my cousin lives in Bulgaria. But then, he has rather unique tastes!)

[Fish Eye]

26. El Salvador is beautiful

and cheap and safe and within driving distance of US.....Bolivia is equally nice...

I have met many who work in SA and CA and no one has a problem with the "legal" visa situation...

Asia is great for work and you DO NOT have have to waste your money on an ESL certification to teach throughout Asia. You won't get rich but you can get out of the country for a while and see they way it is in other places..

[RobinA]

15. Nope

It's not like you can go to Europe and just start applying for jobs.

[rudeboy666]

19. Immigrants will outnumber emigrants..........

Beleive it or not, hundreds of thousands of people around the world are dying, sacrifycing each year in order to reach our shores.

Even if they have to be second-class citizens(people of color) or non-citizens(illegal aliens), they will continue to come(just as they have been doing for generations).

Even though America has had a history of racism, exploitation, and patriarchy, they still come(and will continue to come!).

Beleive me(not to sound mean), but none of you will be missed.

In fact, many reactionaries in our country would gladly pay for your ticket out of this country.

[davsand]

21. As a parent, I'd consider it, but probably not leave.

I don't want my daughter growing up in something resembling a bananna republic. However, this is my home. This is my country. I can't turn my back on that any more than I can turn my back on all the people who have died and bled over the years in support of our Constitution and in defense of our ideals.

I'd find a way to get her out if it got bad enough, but I simply can't teach her that abandoning our country in the face of adversity is ok to do.

They can bury me on high moral ground, I suppose...

Laura

[markus]

22. No. Remember Venezuela. Times for Pots and Pans for Democracy.

Mr. Bush, you can steal the White House, but you can't steal my country.

[piece sine]

24. I'm not budging!

this is MY country; I was born here, long before Bush; I live here but work to prevent Bush's re-election; I will die here long after Bush is no longer in office. And I can't believe even a single person on this thread would actually LEAVE and start life over again anywhere else...just because they HATE a person who will only be President for four more years! Wanna compare to the slow drip of people leaving the huge influx of people trying to get in?! Cherish your citizenship; protect and defend it -- don't throw it away like it doesn't matter!

[Ficus]

27. Canadian Bacon

It seems I rarely agree with you, but yeah.

Some progressives huh? Rather than try to fight the good fight for those who can't afford to migrate somewhere, just run away and leave your native countrymen to suffer at the hands of all that is Fox News and *.

To our south, people are dying in the desert to get here, and wimpy ass :scared: liberals feel the need to run to Canada...



As far as I'm concerned, it'll always be canadian bacon, not ham. :smoke:

:dem: :dem:

[Faygo Kid]

25. If I was younger, I would go to Canada or Europe

A second Bush term would leave this country unrecognizable. We have coped with much; succeeded at much; failed at much. But, we have never seen anything like this radical, un-American administration. If he wins in 2004, it may be our last free election (maybe 1996 was it, already).

[Nay]

29. I can understand the folks who say that moving away if * is elected

is cowardly, but I have a different take on it. My ancestors came fron Scotland about 350 years ago, way before this real estate was even a country. Two of my ancestors fought in the Revolutionary War and I am a member of the DAR. Despite this history,or maybe even because of it, I view the American Experiment as a set of ideas and ideals that happened to be put into effect in this piece of real estate (i.e., the US). The IDEAS are what are important, not whichever piece of ground is selected to be the physical resting place of the embodiment of the ideas.

I can see defending the real estate you are born on -- and this is what we all have the option of doing. This is, of course, what the freepers and gun nuts and Aryan nation guys talk about when they envision fighting for their country. But as important as the actual "home land" is, it is unimportant compared to the ideas and ideals that form the political and social backbone of the country. These ideals are being dragged in the mud and destroyed by * and his bunch, and we may not be able to rouse enough people to stop that more horrible crime. People who leave because they feel the destruction of the idea of America is imminent are simply not interested in the real estate of America. Once the idea of America is turned to ashes (and the precise time at which this happens is pretty much up to the viewer), the real estate is unimportant to lots of folks.

Also, I try to remember that my Scottish ancestors -- remember them? -- LEFT their villages for a better life in another geographical area. They did not stay and try to "take back" their country or improve it: they left. And contributed to the building of a new and supposedly better country, which we are now trying to save. So, my point is that even those who choose to leave can, in the end, preserve or nourish the ideals somewhere else. The world could be a better place for that.

[tom_paine]

30. Wow, Nay...powerful

An interesting perspective.