"Bannergate" (and DU) are the top item on Buzzflash

[Armstead]

http://www.buzzflash.com
----------------------------------


http://www.buzzflash.com/buzzscripts/buzz.dll/content

[DarkPhenyx]

1. OK, I'll say it.

We are making something out of nothing here. This is getting as bad as the Conservatives trying to make a blowjob an impeachable offense. We really need to let this go and move on to something that makes us look less petty, spiteful, adn stupid.

[sendero]

4. people who will lie about...

... the little things will lie about the big things. Count on it.

[DarkPhenyx]

5. Which is one of the things said about Clinton.

All of us rememebr how we felt about that little episode. THe banner is a "nothing issue". It is going to result in more harm than good if we keep riding it. There are far better, adn more valid, issues that we could be pushing instead of wasting time and energy on this nonsense.

[sendero]

7. and on seme level...

... equally true of Clinton. The problem is simply that this fits into a pattern of lies that have been going on since day one.

This little tempest will blow over in a day or two, but not until it has sown the seeds of doubt into the minds of a few more followers.

[DarkPhenyx]

10. I doubt it's going to even do that much.

If you were already an "awakened" individual you knew this already. If you weren't it isn't enough to wake you up. Too much wasted time and energy on something that won't do anything for us. Banging your head on a wall is cathartic, but what does it accomplish?

[sendero]

12. we'll agree to disagree...

... but I also claim that holding the Clinton-haters to their own standard has merit also.

[DarkPhenyx]

15. I would rather say that...

...sinking to their level makes us more like them. Not something I want to become.

Why don't we hold them to our standard instead. We need to maek sure it's one our candidates, and ourselves, can rise to though.

[Armstead]

17. "Depends on what the meaning of 'is' is"

That was a stupid but minor slip of the tongue by Clinton, and the right uses it all the time now as a meme to demonize him.

You never know what will strike a chord.

In and of itself, this isn't a big deal. But the "conventional wisdom" spouted by the media and Bush and the GOP right is that in contrast to Clinton, Bush is a straight-shooter who tells the truth and takes responsibility, and the administration is well-managed like a big corporation.

But whenever things go wrong, he tries to deflect blame to otehrs. And if you take him at his word, than it is a matter of incompetance....The media treats me badly....The CIA didn't tell me the truth....I didn't know Mr. Lay....etc. "The sailors put up that sign" is just the latest example.

If Bush were really a mensch, hje would has said something like "Well, we did get carried away in our enthusiasm, and we thought the worst of the fighting was over at the time and we wanted to celebrate that." Instead, he totally ducked all responsibility, and blames it on the sailors.

[DarkPhenyx]

18. "Depends on what the meaning of 'is' is"

Which the Right uses all teh time and the middle ground, the people we need to win over, say "can't you just give it a rest already?" See where I'm heading here?

[Armstead]

22. I see where you're headed and....

I agree that if taken to excess it's bad. But this only came up yesterday.

I think what many people feel is that the tight wong always seem to get away with this stuff, while the tiniest slip-up by our side gets magnified. Remember "Al Gore invet=nted the Internet" and "The Democrats misused the Wellstone funeral." The GOP used those mercilessly.

Meanwhile, little "slips" by the GOP are always either buried or rationalized by the media and GOP. As a result, the false impression that the administration always tells the straight truth and Bush embodies personal responsibility is allowed to persist.

[Guaranteed]

21. I think you're right, but

people do need to know that it was a totally-staged PR event. I'm happy with anything that'll get that message out to them.

[DarkPhenyx]

24. even if it ends up costing us in the end?

at what price victory, or in this case failure.

[Skittles]

59. If you think

the fact our illegitimate moronic piece of shit "president" BLAMES THE MILITARY for his g.d. problems is a NOTHING ISSUE, you are DEAD WRONG.

[DarkPhenyx]

61. You aren't teh only one to think so.

However your description of the event is just a little skewed from reality.

[rocktivity]

33. You don't know how right you are, Deseo

Originally posted by Deseo:
People who will lie about the little things will lie about the big things. Count on it.

From Media Whores Online:

When asked whether...(his) exaggerations were a problem, (Bush) said yes, and in the course of explaining why, deftly added a few more whoppers to the list Jim Lehrer had provided.
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/charen101600.asp

...(He) lies whether he does or doesn't "have" to. He lies even when the truth would suffice, and when his lie can be easily discovered. He lies habitually. He lies pathologically. And it can be dangerous.
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/hart101900.asp

...(He) is a habitual liar. (He) lies reflexively, promiscuously, even pathologically. He lies on matters large and small, significant and trivial, when he "needs" to and when he doesn’t.
Bill Bennett

And who is "he"? AL GORE.

Damn the spinners, naysayers and wimps--FULL SPEED AHEAD ON BANNERGATE!


rocknation

[underpants]

6. Noit is not a HUGE thing but...

These little bits and pieces and chinks in his supposed armor do resonate with people over time, if they remember.

It leads to a lot of "Well yeah but..." and "Yeah but..." s in normal conversations.

[DarkPhenyx]

8. Or it'll come back and bite us in the ass.

In this case I don't think the risk is worth the gain. There are far bigger and more lucrative targets to be shooting at. In the end the spin meisters are going to win this one. Just a prediction, but...

I say let them have it. Let's move on.

[elfin]

11. I disagree

Even though this does seem like "little thing" compared with lies about Iraq etc., this is the type of thing the sheeple can understand. It is emblematic of how far these creeps will go to blame everyone and everything except their own arrogance. Myabe this will finally prove to some of Bush supporters that this crowd cannot and will not tell the truth about ANYTHING.

Plus it involves a graphic, helpful to get the point across to the literately challenged like our misleader in chief.

[DarkPhenyx]

16. The problem is the Sheeple don't care.

n/t

[Spentastic]

14. For the first time ever

I agree with you. You've got a guy that invaded a country, is getting his own soldiers killed and the best the oppo can come up with is "you lied about a banner".

Ooh, I bet they are shitting in their pants.

[BiggJawn]

58. Would you rather have a bitten ass or kicked balls?

I have to disagree with you, Phenyx.
All through this some of us (including our candidates)have tried to distinguish themselves by "taking the High Road".

And what has it gotten them?

Karl Rove's boot in their crotches, that's what.

It's time to stop worrying about the damn "soccer mom swing voters", (since some here have NO compunction about doing their damndest to chase away the Gun Owner Vote) and take on the RNC with their own tactics.

How many years now have we heard "Oh, it wasn't the SEX we minded, it was that the President LIED to us..." Well, all I'm doing is asking the ReTHUGs to apply the SAME standards and principlas toy THEIR guy.

PROVE that it WASN'T the sex, that's all I'm saying. A lie is a lie, same from Dumbya's mouth as it is from Bubba's.

[DarkPhenyx]

62. I choose both actually.

I'll work on finding the issues that will work, and fighting the battles which will actually push us forward.

[lumpy]

65. You are here asking people to give it a rest

Some of us will never be convinced to give it a rest so why don't you quit taking up so much space trying to convince us to give it a rest? So give it a rest already.

[DarkPhenyx]

66. That's amusing.

You felt so compeled to write telling me to give it a rest. Why is that?

[lumpy]

69. Because you are, obviously, trying to mute the subject

Do you have anything else to contribute to this thread besides telling us to put the subject to rest ?

[HFishbine]

9. On its own it's minor

As one more in a pattern of lies, it' a big deal.

[DarkPhenyx]

13. So we get off it now.

Put it in the box along with all the other little pieces. Wait till we have a better picture. I can guarentee there is a lot of resentment building up in some parts of teh undecided population over this. Resentment directed not at Bush but at us. We are looking, to them, petty and immature. That isn't going to help our cause. It's a great topic for the polar ends to snpie over, but we have to be concerned with how the middle ground is going to view it. Most of them already accept that politicians lie. Even the ones they support.

We saw the same thing when they impeached Clinton.

[DoYouEverWonder]

20. A picture is worth a 1000 words

And in this case these pictures are worth more than that.

Even though this is a little and stupid lie compared to let's say the reasons for going to war in Iraq, these pictures provide visual proof that W is a liar and if he's lying about the little things, what about everything else? This story may not be impeachment material, but they do plant the seeds of doubt in more people minds and that in and of itself is important.

Keep in mind some of the biggest criminals in history were not brought down for the big crimes they committed but usually get nailed for something minor. In my mind, anything that makes more people see W in a negative way will help in the long run.

[DarkPhenyx]

25. Actally the pictures don't provide that.

All tehy show is him in front of a banner that may or may not have been hung by the sailors on the ship.

Oh, they are sailors, not soldier, BTW. They get a bit uppity when you call them soldiers. I guess they know they don't really rate such an lofty moniker. :)

[DoYouEverWonder]

29. I think sailors also get uppity

when their CIC blames his photo op gone wrong on them.

http://www.navytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-2346349.php

[DarkPhenyx]

31. And the people will be much more willing...

...to listen to the sailors bitching about this. So let them "carry the banner" for us. All pun intended, BTW.

[rocktivity]

39. From the Navy Times article photo caption

In the top photo, a “Mission Accomplished” banner graces the island of the carrier Abraham Lincoln on May 1...In the bottom photo, taken April 24, Bush’s staff had hung a similar banner. At Tuesday’s press conference, Bush said his staff had nothing to do with the “Mission Accomplished” banner. Later in the day, the Navy acknowledged the banner had been printed by the White House...

From the article:
Navy officials and the White House yesterday said that while the crew of the Lincoln came up with the banner’s message, the White House printed it. “The Navy asked for help in the production of the banner for the president’s visit. So we helped,” said White House spokesman Allen Abney.

I :loveya: IT!!! Except, of course, for the "acknowledged" part (Bush just plain flat out LIED) and the coverup (we know you're just doing your duty, guys). But why did Bush lie in the first place when it was such an easy and obvious lie to get caught in? Is he THAT desparate to absolve himself from ANY kind of blame, or can he just not help it?


rocknation

[underpants]

27. 128 words

Not inlcuding the subject line

:bounce:

[DoYouEverWonder]

72. LOL

I didn't know you were the anal compulsive type?

[leftchick]

42. Precisely DYEW!

Planting the seeds of doubt about the lying liar* in the unused brains of the many is what it is all about.

[Brotherjohn]

49. Right "If he's lying about the little things, what about everything else?"

Isn't that what lost it for Gore? Sure, there was blame enough to go around on both sides in that campaign, and then there was the theft. But if Bush hadn't been able to brand Gore as "dishonest", using little things such as Love Story and the internet quotes, he likely would have won under any circumstances. The man was a Boy Scout before these allegations.

And the current lie is actually about something that's relevant to Bush's policy, and to war, and to lives and deaths (although it may not be as big as the war lies, it's more provable). And we are right in catching him in it, not simply misinterpreting anything he said, as he did with Gore.

This clearly demonstrates that Bush lies about the little things. Maybe with this and Niger-gate, etc. People will take a better look at the "evidence" (lies) that led us into this war in the first place.

[LuminousX]

43. This is about whether or not Bush had a post-war plan for Iraq

This proves he didn't. He really thought that things would shift back to normal, that the combat was truly over. Now Americans and Iraqis are dying daily and Bush still hasn't presented a reasonable plan of action.

[omshanti]

50. No, it's not something out of nothing.

It's about taking personal responsibility for your actions. Duh-bya refuses to take ANY personal responsibility for everything he has f***ed up - Afghanistan, Iraq, Leak-gate, the economy, etc etc.

TAKE SOME RESPONSBILITY FOR YOUR LYING ACTIONS CHIMP BOY!!!! PEOPLE ARE DYING BECAUSE OF YOUR BLOODTHIRSTY GREED AND YOUR INVETERATE LIES!
GRRRRRRRRR he makes me SOOOO mad.

(i'm glad to have a place to rant)

On edit: Dubya made a big deal about how honest and straightforward he is, about how Gore couldn't be trusted because he is a compulsive liar. Vote for Dubya and you'll get nothing but the truth. Dubya doesn't lie. He's one of the good guys, not like all the other politicians.
This is why it's important that every single instance of Dubya's lying is pointed out. It was part of his campaign platform that he doesn't lie. Now it's lie after lie after lie.

[Oilwellian]

53. Just google "Bush Lied"

and you get 271,000 hits. Apparently, we're not the only ones discussing Bush's patholigical ability to lie. Hell, books have been written recently about his and the GOP's propensity to lie all the time. It's important that we counter the GOP's renlentless claims of "honesty and integrity" every chance we get.

The banner lie is only a symptom of a larger lie the GOP intimated when Bush landed on that carrier. "Mission Accomplished" was in itself a lie; the aura of the flight suit was a lie; positioning the ship to make it appear Bush was "at sea" was a lie; the "magic hour" his handlers chose to give Bush's appearance a "golden glow" was a lie. Of course we knew that already. Using our military to prop up Bush is, imho, despicable.

[Brotherjohn]

57. Interestingly, "Gore Lied" only yields about one fifth of that.

This despite the fact that "Gore the Liar" was the most prevalent theme of Campaign 2000.

[bloom]

54. The BIG message is that his "public" support is fabricated

And this is one great example of how they tried to cover that up.



Sometimes people need visuals to see something that is glaringly obvious to the rest of us.

____________________________________________________________________

I can't see any reason to try to suppress the discussion of it - worrying how it makes US look!

[underpants]

2. Big Props to Atomic Cat and Stephanie

When NBC showed W's spin on it this morning my wife's chin literally shot towards the floor. I hadn't old her about what he said yesterday so it was her initial unprejudiced reaction. I think a lot of people around the country (and world) did the same.

[hippiechick]

3. Exactly - the man simply can't own up to ANYTHING

... he's pissed off the rest of the world, the CIA, now the Military because he will not accept responsibility for the statements and 'decisions' he's made (or not made)... the sheeple are next to awake from their slumber, methinks (and hopes) ...


:hippie:

[Stephanie]

75. What did they SAY on NBC? I haven't seen computer or TV since

last night. Did WE do this? WOO HOOO!

[nostamj]

76. the NBC thing was

a clip from the press conference followed by the WH *admission* that they were behind the banner.

as to WHY they had to do that, who knows?

is there a bushie in the house letting KKKarl know when we have the goods on the bastards...... ???

:tinfoilhat:

[Efilroft Sul]

19. Sure, the sailors strung up the banner, but...

that banner was a backdrop to Bush's speech and it was brought on board the Lincoln by the White House spinmeisters. The Democrats have to say naval carriers are warships, not floating full-service ad agencies. Plus we also have to plant the seeds of doubt with the average apolitical types and make them wonder what kind of commander-in-chief points the fingers at his troops instead of taking blame himself. Once we hammer those points home, we let the issue fade... for now.

What "Bannergate" represents is the first major snafu for the Top Gun carrier landing. And if Kerry or Clark become #1 or #2 on the ticket, let the games begin. Just think how those REAL military guys could nail Bush about the mission in Iraq being accomplished. Come on, we all want to see them nail Bush in a debate by asking the question, "Where were you, George, in 1972? Who died in your place in Vietnam?"

Let us carefully tread the middle ground here, between Dark Phenyx's sensible advice and making a mountain out of a molehill. Let us focus on the bigger issues like Valerie Plame and losing the war on terror and the loss of jobs.

[DemonFighterLives]

23. The big point to take from this is

He lies even when he doesn't have to. So basically he is addicted to lying and that is all he does. It is all he knows. This may be a trivial incident, but goes with the whole white washing of men and women killed in the war for oil. See, we pulled the statue down, so it's all over. Move on, never mind all the explosions you hear.

[DarkPhenyx]

26. Of course he lies when he dosen't even need to.

He's a politician. The people already know this. What's your point?

[Brotherjohn]

48. But the people DON'T know this. Sure, they know that he's a politician...

... but polls STILL show that most think he's an honest, straight-talking guy. They DON'T know he lies all the time. We do, but the general public as a whole don't. They need to see at least part of this side of him if we are to win. Otherwise, he can say whatever he wants and continue to get away with it.

[DemonFighterLives]

51. My point is once a liar alway a liar

The people don't know this. Now what is your point of keeping people off of this subject again?

[bpilgrim]

28. ---------------------------------------------- Animated Gif

story published here...
http://new.globalfreepress.com/article.pl?sid=03/10/29/0119232

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

[Brotherjohn]

30. Has anyone seen THIS! (White House admits they had the banner made)

Bush Incorrectly Disavows "Mission Accomplished" Banner
(http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1028bush-mission28-ON.html)

I don't see it in the Buzz Flash compilation on the matter. Yesterday, after Bush's press conference, the WH admitted that they had the banner made (At the request of someone on the ship. Yeah, sure.).

On whether this is trivial or important (which seems to be the thrust of the discussions above), I agree it should not be hammered into the ground, but as someone else pointed out, it only came up yesterday. And the WH is admitting they had the banner made today (they are always quick to correct when they see trouble coming). They WANT it to be dropped, and now.

But this isn't just about the banner. It's about what the banner SAID. It's about the FACT that the WHITE HOUSE (NOT the guys on the ship) prematurely declared this thing OVER. It is the clearest example yet of their callous disregard for young American lives and their use of them as simply a political tool. It says VOLUMES about the Bush administration.

[Brian Sweat]

37. It was at the request of someone on the ship.

We already learned that they had an advance team on the ship several days before the photo op. Someone from the advance team requested that the banner be made. So technically it was someone on the ship.

[rocktivity]

45. Originally posted by Brian Sweat

We already learned that they had an advance team on the ship several days before the photo op. Someone from the advance team requested that the banner be made.

Well, that's what they're saying NOW--the alternative is for the Navy to call their own commander-in-chump a liar. It's just as likely that the advance team, if there was one, told the Navy they were bringing a banner and wanted to find out the best place to put it.


rocknation

[Spazito]

32. I think there is merit in focusing on this issue of the banner....

for a few reasons:

1. There is always a tipping point with the general public, especially those who are uncomfortable with what Bush is doing but are still giving him the benefit of the doubt. Showing that he would lie about something like this often will make people question what else he has lied about.

2. To put the "blame" on the sailors of the ship is a VERY bad move and will upset, again, those on the edge. It is those on the edge you want to reach because once trust is gone, it is very difficult to get it back.

3. There are definitely "bigger" issues to hammer Bush on but who says one has to do one OR the other? I think everyone is capable of focusing on more than one issue at a time.

[Stephanie]

77. Hit 'em High, Hit 'me Low, Hit 'em Hard, Hit 'em Again

>>There are definitely "bigger" issues to hammer Bush on but who says one has to do one OR the other?<<

Exactly. What's the problem? He outright lied in a PRESS CONFERENCE and thought no one would notice. It's RIDICULOUS. He must be called on it.

[eleny]

34. I thought it was a larger issue

That being that this was supposed to be the beginning of the "rose petals" era in Iraq. Parsing about "major" combat being over is the problem. On that carrier, the president flew in dramatically and stood in front of the banner to tell the world that we were victorious and won a war. The fighting was supposed to be over - period. The guerilla attacks were not anticipated to the extent we know them. The administration has been back pedalling about this ever since.

If it had all unfolded as the administration planned and expected, the banner would not have been an issue. It's link to the continued fighting and deaths is what makes it a major issue. This is the "staged photo op president". So it's not just a little lie in a string of little lies. It's the glaring visual backdrop of their misinterpretation and premature announcement of the end of the war.

[Brotherjohn]

35. "It's the glaring visual backdrop of their misinterpretation..."

"...and premature announcement of the end of the war."

EXACTLY. I would go even further. Not "misinterpretation", but "misrepresentation". They knew more troops would die, and possibly many.

They intentionally cast the Iraq scenario as a rosy one (with little evidence) as soon as they possibly could, for political reasons: to demonstrate that we were "successful". Just as before the war, starting right after 9-11, they intentionally cast the Iraq scenario as a dire and dangerous one (with little evidence), for political reasons: to get their long sought after war with Iraq, and deflect from the lack of capturing Osama.

People will start to see a pattern, which is, simply, lying in the biggest and most callous way, sacrificing American lives and others, for nothing more than political gain.

[eleny]

38. I agree Brotherjohn

And what was brought out about the banner, making it so significant, was that it was probably going to be used as a visual during the '04 campaign. This was no small deal.

To me, this banner issue also has a link to that photo of the president on Air Force One on 9/11. There was a short lived scandal about that, too. Something about copies being sold. It's also still held that the photo might be used during his campaign.

There's always the chorus of voices who want to downplay and minimize the negative patterns of this administration. I say, let this bruhaha play out on its own.

Btw, I think the president's behaviors during the press conference is the big story. But that's for another thread.

[DarkPhenyx]

36. And focusing on the banner is counterproductive.

Yes, all teh things you said are correct. So let's focus on the actual issues. Show the failures in Iraq. Point out the continuing stream of dead and maimed servicememebrs coming back from the Gulf and Afganistan. Talk about real things and not mirages. The banner is a distraction. Nothing more.

[Spazito]

40. The banner saying "Mission Accomplished" while soldiers are still...

dying encapsulates all that is wrong in Iraq. I think it is very visual condemnation of Bush and his Iraq policies. If you think about it, the first of Bush's PR failures began with his prance on board the ship and the banner behind him.

[DarkPhenyx]

63. Prehaps it does.

However the group of us staninding in the corner yelling "liar, lair" isn't going to fix the Iraq problem. It is simply going to make us look childish. THe issue shouldn't be if he lied about the banner. It should be that the mission isn't accomplished. We are failing in getting that message across while we sit here and cry about a stupid banner.

[lumpy]

68. Sometimes fire has to be fought with fire.

Repubs continual harping about Gore,Clinton sure got through to a lot of people didn't it. Many people are only interested in scandal and the Carrier landing bull was scandalous proving that Bush is a scoundrel of the highest magnitude. He is willing to say or fake anything to cling onto his less than illustrious image.

[Nashyra]

41. It's not the banner itself

It's the lies and the fact that he blamed the military. It does not have to beaten like a dead horse but it is great rhetoric for using as an example that he is a liar. Let it fade to a "file" to use at a later date and let the military fan the flames. This example will no doubt draw many military votes away from him. It also shows how he is not willing to except any responsiblity for his own decisions. He has blamed the press now he is blaming the military. It should be brought up that no one on that ship should be blamed for anything. He is supposed to support the troops not blame them for his bad publicity stunts.

[Brotherjohn]

46. I'm not saying we should harp on the banner from here til Election Day.

But even you seem to agree that the big issue is that this has gone much worse than the Bush administration has told us it would. They have consistently painted a rosy scenario and hoodwinked us into a supposedly "easy" war. Many of us told them it would not be easy beforehand.

The real issue is their war-mongering, and of course, the "continuing stream of dead and maimed servicemembers". But another, related, and very real issue is their misrepresentation of the wars they start as good, just and successful (when they are none of the above). The Aircraft carrier photo-op was the most obvious example of this misrepresentation, and the banner itself was the most concise and visually explicit part of it. Neither the banner nor the entire carrier photo-op were mirages. They themselves are not "issues", but the Bush administrations misrepresentations are.

More importantly as an issue, perhaps, are their misjudgements on matters of war and foreign policy (their supposed 'strength"). The continuing mayhem and death in Iraq is not the entire story. The entire story is the continuing mayhem and death contrasted with the administration saying "Mission Accomplished" months ago... through the banner, the photo op, and countless less obvious statements and events. This (and the current backpedalling) at once demonstrates their foreign poilicy ineptitude and their dishonesty and use of Ameriocan lives as political pawns.

So we should not scream "Bannergate! Bannergate!" for months or weeks. But again, this only came up yesterday. And now that it is known that the Bush administration is responsible for the banner (contrary to what Bush said), the public needs to be made aware of this. It is Bush caught lying in a press conference. He takes hits on his "honesty and integrity", and it accentuates the foreign policy ineptitude of his administration to be disingenously backpedalling from an assertion the administration was plainly making that the war was all but over. To this day, I believe the Niger-Gate backpedalling and shifting of responsibility back in June (July?) did more to damage Bush's credibility, and ratings, than any one event thus far. And rightfully so. The average citizen is now much more likely to question what Bush says, and their opinion of him as a "plain-speaking", honest guy, has deteriorated significantly.

I agree with you in this respect. The banner itself does not need to be harped on incessantly throughout the campaign. My take is that in the future, it only ought to be mentioned now and then in political ads or debates by Kerry, Dean, or someone else saying something like this:
"Then there was the shamefully stage-managed photo-op in which the President gave us the message "Mission Accomplished", when it had been nothing of the sort. Then he tried to backpedal from this message, and blame the soldiers, when it became clear that he had horribly miscalculated. I guess with Bush, the buck stops over there."

[Bandit]

74. You can focus any place you choose ~ Let us decide where we wish

to focus our efforts. Who died and made you chief? I personally feel you don't know what you are talking about because anyone who presumes to speak for the entire United States of America is arrogant and presumptious and has an agenda. I wonder what your agenda might be. I would suggest everyone let this run it's course and see what comes of it. If you are correct and the Democrats get blamed for Bush* telling lies then so be it but at least we keep piling the hammer taller.

[realFedUp]

44. Getting all wrapped up in a banner

This is just trivia...we know Bush lies, and his
lies about why we invaded a weaker country militarily
are larger.

[Brotherjohn]

47. Again, it's not the main issue. Of course, the war is the main issue.

But the war, and lies about it, is what has already convinced 30-40% of us to completely oppose Bush.

You say "we know Bush lies". But there are several million more people who don't. They need to be shown at every opportunity that Bush is not a man of honesty and integrity, and many (if not most) of those people will not be convinced on the basis of the Iraq War alone. As with the Niger denials and backpedalling, this is a clear example that this man is a cynical, calculating, dishonest man for whom the buck never stops... a man who will do anything to retain office. The carrier photo-op, and yes, the banner, were probably the most obvious examples of this.

[DarkPhenyx]

64. there are several million more people who don't

and this issue isn't going to convience them. The ones it would convience are going to see this as petty and childish.

[Brotherjohn]

70. On the contrary, I believe it will reveal that the Bush administration...

... is petty and childish, can't own up to anything, and will do anything and say anything to get elected.

Again, what the banner represents (the WH saying "Mission Accomplished") IS NOT a trivial issue. It has been a point of contention ever since things got worse in Iraq after the carrier photo-op. And the WH has been running from the claim of "Mission Accomplished" ever since.

The revelation that the WH made the banner cuts to the core of the issues of Bush's honesty and the White House's competence on foreign affairs. Both are EXTREMELY relevant.

You think it will backfire. I think if he's immune to criticism on this, he's immune to criticism on ANYTHING. I guess we simply don't agree on this.

[adriennel]

71. moonlighting

are you moonlighting for the Bush PR team?

[rocktivity]

52. This is as significant a lie as "I did not have sex with that woman"

because it creates a crisis of character for Bush.

It was Lewinsky's word against Clinton's until that semen-stained dress turned up. It was Bush's word against the Navy's until photos appeared comparing the banner to one of Bush's previous ones. But while Clinton had no reason to believe that a semen-stained dress existed, Bush's lie is completely inexplicable because it flies in the face of the most basic common sense. Didn't he realize that such an obvious lie was guaranteed to come back to haunt him? His handlers sure did as they scrambled to explain--right after the press conference--that while they made the banner, it was at the Navy's request. And what could the Navy do, call their own commander-in-chump a liar?

It was a sick lie, a reflexive one. And if we play our cards right, we can make the flyover as well the banner impossible for Bush to use to his advantage in 2004.


rocknation

[Shakespeare]

73. Actually, it's MORE significant...

...Because it ties directly to Bush's policy on Iraq. They continually try to backpedal and spin and claim that they didn't overestimate the task over there, when clearly, obviously they did.

Trying to deny credit for that banner--and what it said--is a huge lie that's all part of trying to take the heat off of them for going in ill-prepared.

That is huge. That is significant.

And pointing it out is NOT "as bad" as what the wingnuts did to Clinton. Bush deserves to be hammered for this. Period.

[adriennel]

55. too many lies

I chortled with glee when Bush lied about that &^#$% banner during his "press conference". I could almost see his advisors slapping themsleves in the head and proclaiming "Doh!" at that very moment.
It would have been so easy for Bush machine to steam roll that question with a prepared lie (Tenet did it, faulty intelligence, possibly those darn liberals trying to make him look bad, etc.)
The point is that Bush can't even keep his lies straight anymore. When forced to speak extemporaneously, Bush's facade begins to fall apart. We want him to speak off the cuff as much as possible before the election. It rarely works to his benefit (provided he's not addressing crew of bused-in patriots).

Plus, I want to know the truth about the banner. In the past year, how many Bush events have had a lovely pre-printed banner backdrop? I would say nearly all of them. How many printed backdrops have I seen on military ships? Just that one. It is simply ludicrous for Bush to lie about something so blatantly obvious to the public and so vitally unimportant to politics. We need to follow this one through in order to learn more about the Bush regime and their lying machine.
I just read on CNN.com that the banner was the crew's idea, the White House had it printed, and the crew hung it up. WTF?

"Cmdr. Conrad Chun, a Navy spokesman, defended the president's assertion. "The banner was a Navy idea, the ship's idea," Chun said."

Was Commander Chun actually involved with the Lincoln during this glorious event...er, photo op? Sounds to me he's just the happy one tapped to cover this lie for the president.

Besides, Bush has a permanent staffer who is responsible for producing those lovely banners. Why won't Mr Sforza answer questions about the Mission Accomplished banner?

"The man responsible for the banner, Scott Sforza, a former ABC producer now with the White House communications office, was traveling overseas on Tuesday and declined to answer questions. He is known for the production of the sophisticated backdrops that appear behind Mr. Bush with the White House message of the day, like "Helping Small Business," repeated over and over."

I wonder if we will hear what really happened from crew members or other individuals involved with event.

[Stephanie]

78. A few more tidbits -

posted by DUers in the other thread:

'Mission accomplished': Bush brag or Demo fib?
U.S. News- Washington Whispers ^ | 09/29/03 | Paul Bedard

After weeks of Democratic assaults that President Bush was a nitwit for declaring "mission accomplished" in Iraq during his May 1 landing and victory speech on the USS Abraham Lincoln, the White House is bidding to set the story straight. The issue should be a simple one: Bush never uttered those words. "The president," argues communications boss Dan Bartlett, "said exactly the opposite: The mission continues." But Bush stood under a banner declaring "mission accomplished." Why? Bartlett says that the Lincoln's captain had the banner made up to thank his crew for the longest-ever carrier tour, not to declare the war over. "It is something the troops are really proud of," says Bartlett. "Of course they can hang the banner." But the picture was all the Demos needed. "On TV," he says, "they never play the bite of the president, they just show the image with the banner." Democratic polls show that the public buys their spin, which doesn't really surprise Bartlett. "Look, perception becomes reality," he says. "But the facts don't back it up."


WAPO Editorial May 4, 2003

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A10976-2003May3¬Found=true

An Unfinished Mission
Sunday, May 4, 2003; Page B06

THE VICTORY celebration held aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln Thursday was well-deserved, both for President Bush and for the servicemen who cheered him. Thanks to those who gathered on the carrier's deck and their comrades in arms, Saddam Hussein's homicidal hold on Iraq was broken in three weeks, with relatively small, if painful, losses of Iraqi and American lives. None of the disasters feared before the war has come to pass: neither burning oil fields nor bloody street-to-street battles; neither Arab revolutions nor armed interventions by Iraq's neighbors. Mr. Bush acknowledged before the war that these risks were real, but argued that they were outweighed by the risks of not acting: So far, he has been proved right. Nor can there now be any doubt that most Iraqis welcomed the ouster of Saddam Hussein and the elimination of his apparatus of terror. When the horrors of the Baathist regime -- now being confirmed in terrible but necessary detail -- are set against even the destruction and deaths of the war, it's impossible not to conclude that the United States and its allies have performed a great service for Iraq's 23 million people.

Still, it's also impossible to agree with the banner that was draped near Mr. Bush on the carrier deck, proclaiming "Mission Accomplished." Aides say the slogan was chosen in part to mark a presidential turn toward domestic affairs as his campaign for reelection approaches. But neither Mr. Bush nor the American public can afford to put Iraq on the back burner. There is much to be done; the greatest tests and risks still lie in the future. Perhaps Mr. Bush understands that reality; yet his reluctance to fully explain it to Americans or to work for the support he will need is troubling.

Remarkably, Mr. Bush described the Iraqi victory mainly as an episode in the war on terrorism, focusing on purported connections among Iraq, al Qaeda, and the attacks of 9/11 that have yet to be firmly established. He failed to mention Saddam Hussein and devoted only one sentence of 22 words to weapons of mass destruction -- which the United States presented to the United Nations and the world as the decisive reason for military action. Odds are that the dictator will eventually be found, and evidence that has surfaced so far strongly suggests that illegal weapons or weapons programs will be uncovered as well. But the Bush administration should not treat the matter as an afterthought: The weapons could still prove deadly to Americans if they are not secured, and American credibility will be seriously damaged if proof of chemical, biological or nuclear arms is not eventually produced and certified by U.N. inspectors or other independent experts.

[proud patriot]

56. DUers had that lie Disected within 2 hours

:evilgrin: yayyyyyyyyyyy!!!!! :toast:

[Skittles]

60. I SAW THAT

EXCELLENT JOB. :thumbsup:

[lumpy]

67. What really pisses me off

Many people believe the fake flyer landed on the deck single handed. Bush had no experience or training on carrier landings and we should all know that it is a precise maneuver requiring intensive training. This outlandish PR fraud should be plastered all over the place. Every opportunity should be taken to point out how this administration has used every photo op trick in the trade to bolster the image of George W Bush who sorely lacks expertise in every facit of leadership and ability.

[David Zephyr]

79. Kick.

:kick: