Dean Responds to criticism from Sharpton

[Hep]

Howard Dean defended his record on minorities Tuesday after rival Al Sharpton resurrected a 1995 Dean comment that affirmative action should be based "not on race, but on class."

In a statement, Sharpton responded to the news that Democratic Rep. Jesse L. Jackson Jr., planned to endorse Dean for president, sharply criticizing the former Vermont governor's record on affirmative action and gun rights.

"Howard Dean's opposition to affirmative action, his current support for the death penalty and historic support of the NRA's agenda amounts to an anti-black agenda that will not sell in communities of color in this country," Sharpton said.

Sharpton also cited a Dean remark from April 9, 1995 in which he was questioned on affirmative action. Dean said: "You know, I think we ought to look at affirmative action programs based, not on race, but on class and opportunities to participate."

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/D/DEAN_JACKSON?SITE=CODEN&SECTION=US&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

This is such a non issue. Why would Sharpton choose NOW to make this claim?

[Renew Deal]

1. How many of these Dean comments is it going to take to realize...

that he will say anything to win? So far we have questionable comments or positions on affirmative action, guns, Medicare, social security, civil unions (because he signed the bill without ceremony by himself after a court order), Israel, the environment, and I am sure there are others. Dean's record stinks but his evangelists just overlook it and call up the Dean Defense forces cabal to spin stuff.

[unfrigginreal]

5. Hogwash

You mean like "Mary, HELP!"

[Hep]

6. overlook it?

Maybe it's because you make these vast list of claims without taking a single step to verify them. Back up one claim and you'll have something. Guess what. You won't.

[sangh0]

8. You left out

Dean's statements on liberals (he doesn't like them), conservative judges (he likes them), and the death penalty (he wants to expand it)

[DrGonzoLives]

59. ?

He wants to expand the death penalty? He says to use it for truly heinous crimes and murdering cops and children. How is this "expanding" the death penalty?

[sangh0]

73. Yes, Dean wants to expand the # of crimes

which are subject to prosecution by the Feds. The rules governing capital trials at the Federal level make it more likely capital punishment will be imposed.

Murdering cops and children is ALREADY a capital offense in most states. By making it a Federal offense, which Dean supports, we would be bringing the death penalty to states that have rejected it.

[DrGonzoLives]

85. I've done some looking

I can find no instance where Dean says he wants to "expand the number of crimes" that fall under capital punishment. Not once. Care to point out where exactly he said that, or are you going to blow off the question?

[sangh0]

93. Dean has said the he supports a Fed law

making the killing of cops and children a capital crime that can be prosecuted in Federal courts. If you PM me, I'll look for a link later.

[TLM]

171. That's not expanding the number of crimes....

it is expanding the jurisdiction underwhich the existing crims can be punished.


Tell me exactly why you think a child killer shouldn't get the death penalty?

[sangh0]

177. Wrong. It expands the # of crimes

that are Federal offenses. If it passes, acts that weren't Federal crimes will now be Federal crimes.

I don't think anyone should get the death penalty for several reasons

1) It's immoral to kill
2) I don't trust the govt with that power
3) Innocent lives have been taken
4) DP is getting off easy compared to LWOP
5) I believe in reform and rehabilitation
6) I'm a liberal
7) The Federal courts were not meant to prosecute violent crimes

[TLM]

181. Murder is already a capitol offense...

that in most states will get you the DP.

All this does is open up the DP as an option for federal prosecutors in cases of child murder and cop killing.

So it is a lie to say they are expanding the number of crimes, when what they are expanding is jurisdiction.

You may not support the death penalty, and that's your right. I do not like it myself, however I do think in cases of child killers that it should be an option.


However I do feel out methods are way out of date... we need just a simple painless poison.

[sangh0]

182. Not in Federal court

States without DP will now see people executed for crimes committed in their state even though their state has rejected DP. If this were to be determined by "state's rights", then Dean wouldn't support having the Feds execute people from a state that has rejected DP.

[TLM]

193. It's not a state's rights issue... it is a civil rights issue

being killed by someone is a violation fo your civil rights, which are federally protected.


Did you sleep though civics class?

[sangh0]

209. I agree, it's a civil rights issue

and executing the innocent infringes on their civil rights.

[TLM]

218. Nice try to change the subject ... Dean is very much in favor of

putting resources into place to make sure that nobody who is innocent gets executed.


Sicne you've had you ignorance exposed on the issue of federal jurisdiction in cases of murder... you now have to try and jump to another issue, that of the innocent being punished.

Dean has very strong positions on this, which I'm sure you'll ignore, but what the hell... here they are.


Capital punishment is an emotional issue, but supporters and opponents can agree that the death penalty should only be imposed after a fair trial. In recent years, more than 100 death row inmates have been exonerated in the United States. The Bush Administration has ignored this crisis, but my Administration will address it.

George Bush and John Ashcroft have carried out the federal death penalty in a reckless and overzealous manner. For example, Ashcroft has:

Overruled the judgment of local U.S. Attorneys who believed that the death penalty was unwarranted in specific cases.
Insisted on the death penalty for a defendant who had negotiated a plea to life without parole in exchange for the defendant’s cooperation, thereby discouraging future defendants from cooperating.
Abandoned efforts by Janet Reno to root out racial and geographic disparity in the federal death penalty.
Ashcroft is bringing so many questionable death cases that federal juries consistently overrule him. The New York Times reports that juries have rejected Ashcroft’s request for the death penalty in 15 of the last 16 federal capital trials.

Meanwhile, capital punishment is carried out unfairly in many states, but the Bush Administration has taken no steps to improve these state systems. Bush has ignored the Innocence Protection Act, proposed by Senator Leahy with wide bipartisan support, which would expand access to DNA testing and strengthen the quality of lawyers for defendants facing the death penalty.

I believe the death penalty should be available for extreme and heinous crimes, such as terrorism or the killing of police officers or young children. But it must be carried out with scrupulous fairness. I applaud former Illinois Governor George Ryan, who imposed a moratorium rather than administer a system in which 13 innocent men were released from death row. In contrast, George Bush presided over a Texas court system in which dozens of men were put to death without adequate representation. Some had been represented at trial by lawyers who were sleeping or drunk.

As President, I would:

Promptly instruct my Attorney General to evaluate the federal death penalty system, take steps to ensure that it is applied fairly and reliably, and reverse Ashcroft’s overzealous policies.

Push for passage of the federal Innocence Protection Act to strengthen protections against unjust imposition of the death penalty.

Establish a Presidential Commission on the Administration of Capital Punishment to analyze the causes of wrongful convictions around the country and recommend additional reforms at the federal and state level.

First in Texas, and now as President, George Bush has carried out the death penalty in a careless and negligent manner. I will handle this important responsibility very differently.

[Hep]

74. Death Penalty

The Death Penalty is really more of a states rights issue, right?

Well, Vermont under Dean never had a death penalty.

[sangh0]

80. DP is not a states rights issue

The Federal has the power to execute people, and it uses that power regularly. Dean wants the Feds to execute even more people, even if they come from states that have rejected DP.

"State's rights" is another republican lie Dean uses.

[TLM]

170. Shhhhhh Dean is a killing machine.... facts might ruin the bashing

Don't point out Dean's position on the DP has been that we must make sure no innocent folks are punished, and that the DP only be used for the worst offenders.

[kodi]

13. that remark stinks of hypocrisy itself.

there is no doubt that racism continues to exist in this country, it is our worst problem, but the major consequence of this is now economic disempowerment of minorities. it is no longer the physical violence or lynchings that this nation shamefully allowed for nearly 4 centuries against african americans.

dean addressed the way in which government can reduce the ecomonic disenfranchisement of all the poor, not only minorities.

minorities do not make up the majority of the poor, or those on welfare. the majority of these people are white.

there is a quantum difference in addressing the economic empowerment of the poor of all races versus addressing personal or institutional racism of african americans or latinos or asians.

and i am not a dean supporter but i detest such guttersnipping and falacious remarks meant only to incite hatred.

[Egnever]

15. His record stinks?

What stinks about it?

And whats wrong with tying affirmative action in with class? The idea of affirmative action is to lift people up and allow them oportunities to participate that they wouldnt otherwise have is it not? How does basing it purely on race do this effectively?

"Signed the bill without ceremony" is incredibly dishonest as it ignores all the time he was campaigning for the election before signing it wearing a flack jacket because of the hatred generated by his suport of the bill. Yea he didnt shove it in everyones face when he signed it but it doesnt for a second take away from the fact that he suported it strongly enough to recieve tons of death threats over it before ever signing it.

Seems to me You just listen to the negative spin and believe it based on a predisposition you have against Dean. Vermont leads the nation in health care, environmental protection, school performance, and support for young children and mothers. It is one of a few states not in the red in its budget. It has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the country.


I can fully understand if he isnt your cup of tea but his record sure as hell doesnt stink.

[sangh0]

17. What's wrong with it is it's a lie

Affirmative Action already takes income into account. How do you propose to measure class? By income?

Income is already included! Basically, the right wing has tried to deceive people into thinking that poverty is an appropriate substitute for race, and they're not above lying to do so. It's unfortunate that Dean has such a long history buying into the Republican spin.

"Adding" income (when it's already included) in exchanging for removing race is a fraud.

nd whats wrong with tying affirmative action in with class? The idea of affirmative action is to lift people up and allow them oportunities to participate that they wouldnt otherwise have is it not? How does basing it purely on race do this effectively?

AA is NOT about "lifting people up"; It's about remedying and reducing discrimination. You can't remedy racial discrimination if you don't allow race to be used as a criteria.

Vermont leads the nation in health care, environmental protection, school performance, and support for young children and mothers.

All of which have nothing to do with AA.

[Egnever]

82. I have been looking for a while now and i cant find

Any information suporting your stance that affirmative action allready takes income into account. Can you please point me to some information confirming this?

So far everything i have read says that affirmative action pertains only to discriminatyion based on race / gender/ or sexual persuasion.

[sangh0]

91. College applications

Are you not already aware that colleges use income as a factor in determining who to admit?

So far everything i have read says that affirmative action pertains only to discriminatyion based on race / gender/ or sexual persuasion

It also includes age, religion, and other factors.

[Egnever]

102. College aplications have absolutely nothing to do

With affirmative action as a whole and are individual policies that change from institution to institution.

college addmission policies are not AA, they are required to conform to AA I believbe but they are not soley controled by AA and again varry widely from college to college.

Hence michigan being singled out for its practices as opossed to all universities in the country being lumped together.

So if this is what you were basing your statement on you were spining wildly.

[sangh0]

105. You're kidding, right?

You don't think AA has anything to with college applications? And you base your opinion on the fact that AA pgms differ from institution to institution?

How does the fact that they differ lead you to the conclusion that income isn't used by universities?

colledge addmission policies are not AA, they are required to conform to AA I believbe but they are not soley controled by AA and again varry widely from college to college

College admissions plans are often guided by AA, which is a volutary pgm, so your claim that they are "required to conform to AA" is incorrect. AA does not REQUIRE anyone to do anything. AA only ALLOWS institutions to consider certain factors, such as income. Michigan was singled out in order to prevent ANY college from using race as a factor. Court decisions are binding on any institution within the courts jurisdiction.

[Egnever]

116. you are changing the argument

I am not saying coledges dont use income as a criteria . I am saying that it has nothing to do with AA it is simply a mechanism put in place by the colledges themselves. AA does play a part in the aplication proccess in regards to race but it has nothing whatsoever to do with income.

[sangh0]

122. For what purpose do they use income?

If it's not "diversity" (which can only be justified by AA) then why do they consider low income a plus when it comes to admissions?

[Egnever]

128. It doesnt matter what purpose they use it for

It has absolutely nothing to do with AA legislation.

the AA legislation itself says absolutely nothing about income.

Nothing

0

That dean thinks it should is a good thing IMHO he recogniozes something you clearly dont. That AA itself doesnt address income at all.

[sangh0]

129. Here ya' go

http://www.aaup.org/Issues/AffirmativeAction/aalegal.htm

It mentions severals institutions use of income in their AA programs. It even mentions the use of income in Elementary and Secondary Schools.

[Egnever]

138. I am starting to think you are jst ignoring your premise

Yuo say AA allready addresses income. And defend that bay saying that some colledges use income as a part of thier AA programs.

The fact remains that AA doesnt address it even if other institutions in implimenting it do. That would be the institutions addrssing it not AA itself.

Regardless of how many places you cite that use income in thier admitance policies it has nothing whatsoever to do with the actuall legislation including it itself.

Again I agree with dean Class should be used as a portion of AA

and acording to your research so far so do a lot of universities.

[sangh0]

142. Talk about spin

You say "AA doesnt address it even if other institutions in implimenting it do" because "the institutions addrssing it" are "not AA itself."

AA "itself" doesn't do anything. Please explain how income could be used without their being sued for discrimination if it has nothing to do with AA?

[Egnever]

145. weeeee

so then if AA itself doesnt do anything your objections to dean adding class to it are what again?

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Egnever]

151. Ill say!

http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/statutes/ofccp/eo11246.htm

there it is the wording of the executive order that AA is based on no where does it mention income.

Deans right

You are the one lying

[sangh0]

163. Your link

only applies to govt contractors.

[Egnever]

152. more for you

Understanding Affirmative Action

Executive order 11246 and what it means

Issued by President Lyndon B. Johnson in 1965, affirmative action refers to a set of specific procedures designed to insure an equal distribution of jobs and salaries to women and minorities. The intent of Executive Order 11246 was for government contractors to have a written plan of affirmative action to remedy past discriminatory hiring activites. The later implementation of the Age Discrimination in Employment Act (ADEA) and the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) also created protective classes for persons over the age of 40 and those with disabilities. There is no federally legislated protection for employees who are discriminated against based on their sexual orientation.

These laws require employers to create and implement plans and programs to uphold and enforce the intent of these acts. Following are some suggested readings in the area to help you understand the laws and how they affect your library's hiring and management practices.

http://alexia.lis.uiuc.edu/~lis405/diversity/eeoc.htm

Income is definately not included in Affirmative action.

[sangh0]

165. Your link is irrelevant to education

It only references AA pgm that pertain to employment, and not to education

[Egnever]

203. bleh double post please ignore

[Egnever]

204. Thats because

Affirmative action doesnt address colledge admissions and actually has nothing to do with them other than the fact that the civil rights act required educational institutions to addopt the requirements of Federal Executive Order 11246 wich is what afirmative action is.

The fact that universities are required to submit thier addmission policies as part of thier over all AA plan required by the civil rights act.

No where in either Afirmitive action(Executive Order 11246) or the civil rights act is consideration of financial situation required. Contrary to what you tried to say in your original statement that it was allready a part of AA.

Its not

An Affirmative Action Plan sets forth results-oriented programs to which employers commit
their good faith efforts to attain and maintain equal employment opportunity. The
requirements for Affirmative Action Plans are contained in Federal Executive Order 11246
and in Affirmative Action Guidelines issued by the U. S. Departments of Labor and Justice.
These guidelines are consistent with the aforementioned documents and outline the
responsibilities of agencies and institutions of higher education to ensure equal
employment opportunity and affirmative action.

you can cite universities that use income as part of thier over all AA plan till the cows come home the fact remains that AA has no provisions whatsoever to address inequalities based on financial ability.

Your statement was false

[sangh0]

211. If you say so

I'd like to see you repeat that as often as you can. You'd quickly lose whatever credibility you might have

[Egnever]

213. I do say so.

Your problem here is you cant refute it because its reality. Not the spun pile of crap you are trying to put forth here.

Just admit the truth. AA has absolutely no requirements for class or financial ability.

You were wrong.

[Terwilliger]

35. at least he's better than Clark

ya know?

[JVS]

179. Amen!

I thought these people wanted electable? What could be more electable than telling the public whatever it takes to get elected?

[TLM]

50. Ok lets slap down this BS one by one...

"that he will say anything to win? So far we have questionable comments or positions on affirmative action,"

Questionable in what sense... that you have no context to show the meaning of the quote? Dean's not attaacking AA in that quote or saying it should be rolled back, rather what he was saying was that AA is a good program and we should do something similar for disadvantaged individuals of all races and genders.

I happen to think that's a great progressive idea.


" guns,"

What is questionable about his stance on guns... even Jessie Jackson Jr. likes Dean's stance on guns.


"Medicare,"

Again what's questionable... Dean supported cutting medicare administration to expand medicare coverage, because he feels the program is badly run.


" social security,"

The question is based on a decade old answer to a hypothetical question about what might need to be done IF a balanced budget amendment passed in 95. It was not a policy statement as some are trying to claim.


"civil unions (because he signed the bill without ceremony by himself after a court order),"

So what? First off Dean wanted it to be low key because it was a very hotly contested issue... what should he have done, hold a f-ing parade? And almost every advance in civil rights has come on the heels of a court decision. You act like Dean was fighting civil unions until the court made him sign it... that's simply not true. Had Dean wanted to, he easily could have done what like 30 other states have done and ammend the state consitution to ban gay marriage.

Instead he made the fight about the rights and not the words... and he GOT IT PASSED!


"Israel,"

What questionable statements... saying we should be evenhanded in brokerign peace?


"the environment,"

What questionable thing did he say about the enviornment?


"and I am sure there are others."

Yeah but you have to go to the Kerry or CLark talking points site to get them, right.


"Dean's record stinks but his evangelists just overlook it and call up the Dean Defense forces cabal to spin stuff."

What stinks is how you bashers try to spin Dean great record into something awful based on such weak ass crap as Dean not having a celebration when he signed the civil unions bill. THe whole reason you ignore the record and attack the ceremony like that is because the record is too strong to attack.

[joeybee12]

2. You know, all you Sharpton supporters can yell all you want about how

witty Al is during the debates, but it comes down to the fact that he became famous for his Tawyna Brawley scam which he never apologized for. Why would anyone trust him?

[Renew Deal]

3. Trust him?

Those are Dean's words. He used Dean's words. He didn't make it up.

[Hep]

10. He trotted

out a partial quote from 1995. But I can see why you so quickly and unquestioningly believe Sharpton. He doesn't believe in backing up his claims either. One sentece from 8 years ago?

Your eagerness to jump on the antiDean wagon betrays you.

[sangh0]

31. In 1995, Dean said we should eliminate race as an AA criteria

and has never refuted that statement. Instead of defending Dean's position, you attack others.

I can't say I blame you. There's nothing there worth defending

[mzmolly]

52. Wrong again, he said we should 'expand' AA to include "classism."

Expand, not eliminate...

[sangh0]

58. Dean said "not on race, but on class."

and AA already includes income. Dean's "expansion" is a fraud. It's the same argument the Repukes make.

[Egnever]

120. Show me where AA includes income

Sa that institutions use income is not the same as AA including Income.

AA as far as i can find regards only issues regarding race/gender/sexually persuasion it says absolutely nothing about income.

[sangh0]

131. Here you go

http://www.aaup.org/Issues/AffirmativeAction/aalegal.htm

It mentions severals institutions use of income in their AA programs. It even mentions the use of income in Elementary and Secondary Schools.

AA as far as i can find regards only issues regarding race/gender/sexually persuasion it says absolutely nothing about income.

Did you even try searching for "Affirmative Action" and "income"?

[Egnever]

139. and again thats not AA

Yuo say AA allready addresses income. And defend that by saying that some colleges use income as a part of thier AA programs.

The fact remains that AA doesnt address it even if other institutions in implimenting it do. That would be the institutions addrssing it not AA itself.

Regardless of how many places you cite that use income in thier admitance policies it has nothing whatsoever to do with the actuall legislation includewd in AA itself.

Again I agree with Dean Class should be used as a portion of AA

and acording to your research so far so do a lot of universities.

[sangh0]

144. From the link

which is to an Affirmative Action website, btw:

"The school considers race, ethnicity, gender, and family income in admissions, to help insure that the abilities and learning styles of its students reflect those generally found in multicultural urban settings. "

What's not AA about matching the student population to "reflect those generally found in multicultural urban settings"?

[Egnever]

150. ok so heres a link to what affirmitive action is based on

http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/statutes/ofccp/eo11246.htm

No where does it mention income.

Your assertion is false

It is not allready included as you claim.

[sangh0]

153. Another link from "In defense of Affirmative Action"

which I'm sure has nothing to do with AA.

http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/csula2.html

The Educational Opportunity Program (EOP) serves students who may be disadvantaged because of educational or economic background. EOP was established to increase the enrollment and graduation of disadvantaged low income students who historically have been underrepresented in higher education and who may be unable to meet regular admission requirements. EOP provides information about admissions, financial assistance and advisement services to undergraduate students who demonstrate the potential to succeed academically at the college level.

The primary goal of EOP is to improve access to low income students. EOP aids in the academic success of students by providing a comprehensive program of support services. Services include but are not limited to recruitment, pre-admissions counseling, orientation, Summer Bridge, diagnostic testing, financial aid follow up, special admissions, learning communities, academic advisement, tutoring, library loans, learning skills services and personal, educational and career counseling.

[Egnever]

155. So now EOP is affirmative action?

thats your defense of your position that AA allready includes income?

once again

http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/statutes/ofccp/eo11246.htm

there it is the wording of the executive order that AA is based on. no where does it mention income.

Deans right

[sangh0]

166. Yes, EOP is an AA pgm

THe admissions policy at Michigan weren't called "Affirmative Action" but it was an AA pgm

[Egnever]

212. Wrong again

EOP is a california specific program enacted by one University and has absolutely nothing to do with AA other than the fact that it echoes some of the general principles of AA

Your absolutely wrong on this but Ill be more than happy to continue if you like.

It is becoming increasingly informative.

[DuctapeFatwa]

11. Fortunately for Dean supporters, minorities and low wage earners

have been successfully marginalized to the point of virtual disenfranchisement, so the fact that Dean has nothing to offer them is immaterial.

As is the tendency of the affluent voting classes, particularly white ones, to bleat about Tawana Brawley whenever another of their company remarks in a tone that fails to conceal their astonishment, that Sharpton is intelligent.

In short, the top 25 income gentry should just go ahead and enjoy their election.

For the bottom 75 majority, a political solution is no longer realistic.

[Hep]

19. you're a funny guy!

so the fact that Dean has nothing to offer them is immaterial.

FACT that Dean has nothing to offer them. Care to demonstrate this FACT for us?

[sangh0]

24. more name-calling

from Hep

[DrGonzoLives]

66. Name-calling?

He asked for facts. Apparently, to the ABD crowd, that's name-calling. I had hoped things had changed in that regard, but I guess not.

[sangh0]

75. Yes, name-calling

.

[RetroLounge]

83. you're a funny guy!

That's name calling?

Sheesh, thin skin, dontcha think?

[Hep]

92. Worry not

He alerts on pretty much every post I make, them PM's me and claims that my messages getting deleted prove that I'm wrong!

What do you think the ignore button is for?

[DuctapeFatwa]

34. None of the moneyed candidates do. If they did, they would not get money

The situation has reached such an extreme point now that the only chance, and a slim one at that, would involve a complete and systemic, fundamental replacement of the entire economic structure.

Any candidate for public office who suggested more than a particularly fetching piece of window dressing or a slightly larger than usual band-aid would not only not receive money from PACs and affluent supporters, he would be denounced as a terrorist.

[TLM]

84. So sort of what you are doing to Dean...

I gues you've been under a rcok for the last year... but the reason Dean is doing so well is eaxtly because he is doing what you say he's not doing. Dean has reached out to the poor and the middle class for support instead of big money PACs and special interest groups.

DEan has gone to the people and gotten 200,000 people to send him an average of 75 bucks.

And just as you say, when a candidate doesn't follwo the power elite system... he gets attacked, just like you're doing.

[DuctapeFatwa]

119. Yes, Dean appeals to many people who have $75 discretionary income

I will let the campaign research experts help you with the contributions he and others have received from "big money" sources, and I appreciate you making my point so much better than I was able to.

It is interesting that you perceive my comments about the nation's crisis as an attack against Dean.

Do you believe that he is responsible for it?

[Hep]

125. You don't think you attacked Dean

I understand what you are saying now moreso than before. But you said, "the fact that dean has nothing to offer them" most certainly is an attack. And false as well. And I'd still like to know why you think affordable healthcare, early childhood visitation, and educational/job training opportunities amount to nothing.

[DuctapeFatwa]

161. I already answered that, but I will elaborate

While the affluent can afford affordable healthcare, a larger number of people are having a tough time affording living indoors.

Early childhood visitation leading to what? So you set up a program to offer an employment alternative to affluent people who sent money to Dean, or some other Deanoid.

They visit, they see that the family consists of a single mom working 100 hours a week for minimum wage, behind on the light bill, and a good food day means McDonald's fries instead of potato chips, and they have the stove on and the oven open because they can't pay rent and heat, too.

What does the state propose to do? Seize her children and warehouse them in a correctional facility like New Jersey has started doing?

Send them to foster care? There are millions upon millions of them.

Dean will have to apologize to Cheney so he can get a good deal on cages.

Job training and education on the scale that any moneyed candidate dare propose, or could realistically implement is kind of like the idea of raising the minimum wage $3 over 2 years.

When the average apartment costs almost 4 times the minimum wage, according to the government's figures, it is really immaterial whether it is raised $3 or not.

The kind of job training and education that you would have to do would take you back to square one, complete, from the foundation redo of the entire economic system, which is not something that the corporations who fund the campaigns, Dean's or any of his ilk, are going to stand for.

Here is a link with some more information:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=590664

[TLM]

167. Wow, not only are you attacking Dean...

but you are totaly ignorant of the programs you're attacking.


The sucess by six program has a home visit for every child born... and if the mother want it, there are programs available for parenting skills, job training, child care and programs to keep dads involved.

In the 10 years the program has been runnign, the child abuse rate is down almost 50% and child sexual abuse is down 70%.

You can spew your garabage all you want, but it won;t change the positive results of DEan's work in VT.

"The kind of job training and education that you would have to do would take you back to square one, complete, from the foundation redo of the entire economic system,"

That's just stupid... sorry but you're talking out your ass. SOmeone who works in factory can learn to use computers and have a whole pile of job oppertunities open up for them. Takes about 6 weeks to learn basics and about 6 months to get network training. You do not need to redo the whole economic system to learn some new job skills.


"which is not something that the corporations who fund the campaigns, Dean's or any of his ilk, are going to stand for."

Once again DEan is not funded by a bunch of big corpporations... but by individuals like me, who send in a few bucks here and there. Dean had 200,000 people send I an average of 75 bucks and that's how he is funded.

[DuctapeFatwa]

187. Once again, you make my point for me - and better than I do! Thanks!

It is true that the vast majority of the voting elite have little if any idea of the reality of those who do not share their material fortune; some are even incapable of accepting the existence of such.

Programs such as you describe have a long history, and the argument "ok so even if 60 million are dying, isn't it good that we saved 7?" can hardly be rebutted without suggesting that those 7 should also have perished.

Although I cannot make it as subtly as you do, my point is that the situation has reached such an extreme point that all the feel-good window dressing in the world, even when implemented by people who are every bit as well intentioned as the young girl at the Help-the-Homeless Volunteer Orientation who asked, face wreathed in sincere and sweet concern,
"Why don't they just take something out of savings?"
even that cannot extinguish the spark that runs in classic Hanna Barbera tradition along its fuse, from the gutters of the slums, inexorably toward the most muted greatroomed cul de sac.

I have my doubts that this fuse was lit by Dean, although I will certainly defer to those with more detailed knowledge of his infancy and boyhood.

[TLM]

194. Are you using a random text generator?

Your agument is nonesense.

"Programs such as you describe have a long history, and the argument "ok so even if 60 million are dying, isn't it good that we saved 7?" can hardly be rebutted without suggesting that those 7 should also have perished."

What 60 million? We're talking about a program that cut child abuse in half and child sexual abuse by 73%. And a program the provides job training a day care. THere's nobody dying and the programs are doing a lot of good.


Let me know if you can address the points made here instead of just spewing insane class war garbage.

[DuctapeFatwa]

198. Just for the record, TLM is not my secret second character

Although, I confess, if I had one, I would have him say those same things, more or less verbatim, just to illustrate my argument :)

[Hep]

206. You've said that quite a bit so far

I'm wondering if you can explain how he is making your point for you.

[TLM]

215. Dupe

[TLM]

216. I think he thinks I must be well off and have no knowledge of being poor

and therefore the fact that I'm calling his argument a steaming pile of nonsensical bullshit, proves that the I have no real understanding that there is no hope of ever helping the poor because I've never been poor and thus can not understand the hopelessness of it all.


However this jackass has no clue that I did in fact grow up poor and in a single mother home on welfare, and I am now well educated and gainfully employeed because I went to community college and learned computers.

Contrary to this idiot's ranting... I am in fact proof that these kinds of programs do help the poor, at least those who a willing to make use of them.

[DuctapeFatwa]

230. By illustrating that the gap is even wider not only than he suspects

but wider than he can even comprehend in the abstract.

[TLM]

207. Yawn... not one point refuted, not one argument made

just snide evasions and crap.

Tell me, what argument do I prove by pointing out that you're not arguing the point at hand, but are instead barfing up strawmen and nonesense?

[DuctapeFatwa]

234. LOL I hope you intended that to be a spoof of the typical

affluent, oblivious and globally irrelevant societal fringe represented by the US voting elite.

If so, you are very talented.

If not, you are probably late for a very informal fund-raiser at which will be present a very generous handful of beige and brown faces, and the hosts, who like you, are deeply concerned about the sprinkling of the less fortunate they have read some very moving Salon articles about will be most gratified by the impressive number of Lexuses in the parking lot of the gated community.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

244. A Toast To You

For an excellent defense of the concerns Sharpton represents, and an illustration of the exact reasons why certain elite, affluent white folks sometimes get so huffy when uncomfortable issues like these are raised by the poor and/or people of color.

:toast:

DTH

[TLM]

250. DTH just imagine for a second how you'd feel is I wrote something like...

"A toast to you. For an excellent defense of the concerns Duke represents, and an illustration of the exact reasons why certain ignorant, poor black folks sometimes get so huffy when uncomfortable issues like these are raised by the educated and/or whites.


I bet you'd consider it as ignorant and racist as I consider what you just wrote.

[TLM]

248. I guess you feel that verbose personal attacks are not personal attacks?

First you act as if only the wealthy even vote... "the US voting elite."

"If not, you are probably late for a very informal fund-raiser at which will be present a very generous handful of beige and brown faces, and the hosts, who like you, are deeply concerned about the sprinkling of the less fortunate they have read some very moving Salon articles about will be most gratified by the impressive number of Lexuses in the parking lot of the gated community."

How dare you. How dare you assume to know a damn thing about my situation. How dare you presume to act as if I am some well-to-do elitist who has no idea what it is like to be poor and without hope.

You can dress up your arrogant and snide insults in verbose prose, but under the trite facade you've got wrapped around it, there's nothing but the same old bigoted ignorance and hate.

I say again, I grew up on welfare, we were completely broke 4 days after the first of the month after paying the rent and what bills we could afford. I had a fucking paper route, not for some extra pocket money like most kids, but so we could afford to eat decent food and keep the lights on and you have the unmitigated gall to presume to act as if I do not know what it is like to be poor simply to attempt to prop up your piss poor excuse for a defeatist class war augment?

You are a disgusting excuse for a human being and I am done responding to you.

[DuctapeFatwa]

252. Calling me "disgusting excuse for a human being" does not change reality

To tell you the truth, I don't blame you for preferring an alternative to the undeniably grisly reality in which we live.

And I do not have a good argument for those who ask why they should be aware of or accept a reality about which they can do nothing.

In fact, in my original post I suggested that the rich folks just go ahead and enjoy their election, such as it is, and I believe that to be good and prudent advice.

[Hep]

183. must....have.......subject.....line

While the affluent can afford affordable healthcare, a larger number of people are having a tough time affording living indoors.

Boy, living indoors would be a lot easier if I didn't have to spend so much on healthcare.

Early childhood visitation leading to what?

96% health care coverage, 81.1% of children immunized by age 2 and 97% by kindergarten, and a 45% drop in child and sexual abuse.

Or something.

The kind of job training and education that you would have to do would take you back to square one, complete, from the foundation redo of the entire economic system, which is not something that the corporations who fund the campaigns, Dean's or any of his ilk, are going to stand for.

I'm not sure if you're right about that. I don't see why we can't expand our community college and trade school systems to provide for the job training and educational needs. They're already established, but they have no funding.

[DuctapeFatwa]

188. Give it a shot, call your local community college

and ask them what the impact would be of accepting another hundred thousand or so students at once, none of whom could pay a cent of tuition, and 95% of which need remedial reading courses.

I chose that figure at random, and on the assumption that you do not live in a large city, in which case make it a million or 2.

[Hep]

191. you must not live where I live

I know people who taught remedial english at my local community college but were laid off because there was no money to pay them. You think community colleges are operating at full capacity? They are, but only becaueas budget cuts have left them with no money to pay teachers. And it's not like these teachers are demanding $35000 a year, either.

Hell yes it's going to be costly. But it isn't like this is an issue that we can just give up on. And it would pay off.

[DuctapeFatwa]

195. I think you may have misunderstood me

I am suggesting that a large program that swelled the ranks of community colleges with huge numbers of indigent students with remedial needs would not be easily accomodated by most community colleges.

If you ask the landlords of whatever low income housing still exists in your community how they would react to the suggestion that they stop charging their tenants rent for a year or so while they went to the community college, in my opinion, few would express enthusiasm.

And so it goes, on down the line. The economic system itself would have to be ripped out and built back again from a new blueprint - it is simply not feasible to do anything significant while maintaining the status quo - and maintaining the status quo is what the 'top tier" candidates are all about, if you are a supporter of Dean or any of the others, you should remember that what you are working for is not change, just new on camera talent.

That is just the way it is. I am sorry that there cannot be a good outcome.

[Hep]

202. I must not have

I am suggesting that a large program that swelled the ranks of community colleges with huge numbers of indigent students with remedial needs would not be easily accomodated by most community colleges.

You're suggesting it as an expert on the subject, or you're suggesting it as some guy who just happens to be more cynical than me?

If you ask the landlords of whatever low income housing still exists in your community how they would react to the suggestion that they stop charging their tenants rent for a year or so while they went to the community college, in my opinion, few would express enthusiasm.

This is the most absurd thing so far. Maybe I'm not understanding you. Where did you get the idea that landlords would have to stop charging rent? Seriously, you haven't written a book on this subject have you?

And so it goes, on down the line. The economic system itself would have to be ripped out and built back again from a new blueprint - it is simply not feasible to do anything significant while maintaining the status quo - and maintaining the status quo is what the 'top tier" candidates are all about, if you are a supporter of Dean or any of the others, you should remember that what you are working for is not change, just new on camera talent.

Ummm, uh huh. Ok. Considering that I think your conclusion is built on one of the most bizarre premises I've read, forgive me if I don't follow you there.

That is just the way it is. I am sorry that there cannot be a good outcome.

Well I'm glad you have that kind of confidence in your opinion.

[TLM]

205. Can you read this: You are full of crap!

While it is true that is a million students flooded into one community college all at once, they'd not be able to handle it, you're pulling those numbers out of your ass and you're ignoring the fact that community colleges are not the only places that provide education and job training.

You want to believe that nothing good can ever be done in order to continue maintaining your worldview, but the fact is that good has been done, lots of good, no matter how much you wish you could ignore it and keep up your attacks on the evil system.

[DuctapeFatwa]

242. Since I have already said I am unable to return personal insults

and suggested that you will receive more satisfactory responses from those who share your interest in same, I would like to suggest myself as an excellent candidate for your ignore feature, which I sense you use and enjoy.

[TLM]

196. Wow you really have no clue do you?

"and ask them what the impact would be of accepting another hundred thousand or so students at once"

Where do you get that number? Did you just make it up like the rest of the crap you've posted in this thread?


"none of whom could pay a cent of tuition,"

Which would be moot if there was a federal program paying for it.


"and 95% of which need remedial reading courses."


Oh I see, so the poor can't read, is that what you're saying?

I grew up poor and was in honors classes in my public school... you really are clueless and quite insulting.

Most people in need of job training are people who were employed and got laid off, and need new skills. Not people who can't read and have been living in a shack their whole life.

[DuctapeFatwa]

201. I reiterate, TLM is not my secret second character, but I cannot state

with the same certainty that he is not the young girl who asked why the homeless don't "just take something out of savings."

;)

[Hep]

208. BEcause

no one who couldn't afford school has ever gone.

;)

[TLM]

210. What does that have to do with the argument I just made?

Are you pushing this class war crap that nobody can understand the plight of the poor unless they've lived it?


Well guess what... I've lived it. I was in a single mother welfare home until the age of 16, and I got out because I busted my ass in public school, used a federal program to go to a community college, learned computers and got a decent job.

So you'll understand if I say you're totaly full of shit.

[DuctapeFatwa]

228. Please forgive me for not returning your insults and ad homs

It is nothing personal, and I understand that it is very popular, just not my preferred communication style, no value judgment intended.

You will get a much more satisfactory response from those who share your interest in "flames" and "insult wars."

[TLM]

233. Once again ignore the fact I just eviscerated your inane argument

Don’t make any points of fact, any arguments, just make excuses and spew BS.

You’re now going in my ignore file.

[DuctapeFatwa]

237. I think you will be more comfortable if you put me on ignore

As I said, it is really nothing personal, and I am more than happy to discuss the issues with you, but I am unable to participate in insult contests, or discuss your opinion of me.

Thanks for thinking of me, though

[SahaleArm]

214. I'm calling bullsh*t on that one.

Public Records show otherwise:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/politics/contributions/search.pl

Try typing in any of the following zipcodes and you'll see the same person pedging $50-$100 to Dean four or fives times.

98122, 98103

[Hep]

219. What are you getting at?

Are you saying that 200000 people didn't make donations, or are you saying the average wasn't $75? I really don't have time to crunch all of the numbers.

[SahaleArm]

222. If you look at the numbers...

you'll see the same individual making $50-$250 donations 4-5 times. My guess is that Trippi is inflating the numbers to pump up the perception that Dean is getting money from 200,000 unique people. It's probably closer to 30,000 unique people donating on average $500 dollars; all of which were given across 200,000 donations.

[Hep]

236. OK

But all you have on that is your suspicion, right? I'm surprised that Dean's opponents haven't gone through his FEC report and officially crunched those numbers. We'll hold out hope, I guess!

You're entitled to your sispicions. Can't prove you wrong, and the listings show what they show, they certainly leave a door open.

[SahaleArm]

241. Because they'll all want to play...

the same game, including Clark:). I don't fault Dean, it's just politics; and we're not talking about african uranium here.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

12. Truth is Tawana Brawley scammed him

and a lot of other people.
I say more power to Al if he can get the liberals to wake up from their idolatry and actually scrutinize Dean.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

26. more insults from Hep

the word "stupid" wasn't used.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

70. nor did I single anyone out by name

good fucking lord. There are no doubt some that don't know what he's about for all the hype.

[Hep]

78. Your daily mantra is well known

And there are some who are more ABD than ABB.

[Character Assassin]

57. So that makes him one hell of a sucker can't be trusted.

The extent to which he defended her, if he was 'scammed', makes him either stupid, gullible, or both, and brought out some, shall we say, quaint ideas he has about conspiracies and the IRA.

Sharpton is a running joke, a one-man clown school, and always will be.

Looks great in a cowboy hat with an unlit cigar, though.

[TLM]

88. Yeah, you don't care what lies are told...

as long as they hurt Dean.

We know.

[birdman]

89. Two of Shaptons associates broke off with him

because he knew the Brawley thing was a scam from the start.

http://eightiesclub.tripod.com/id251.htm

This guy built his career throwing around charges of racism
and usually they were either unfounded or were based on a
definition of racism that consisted of "criticizing Sharpton"

[sangh0]

14. Can't you defend Dean's statement

I noticed you didn't have a word to say about Dean's republican desire to remove race as a criteria for AA.

[Cha]

49. I read something once about Sharpton and his

"tawanna brawley" imbroglio. Sharpton said he wasn't going to "apologize because once you start apologizing you don't stop. I'm paraphrasing but that was the gist of it. It didn't make sense to me but evidently that's the way he feels. I thought it was too bad that he feels that way because if you're wrong I think you just freakin' "apologize"!

It sounds like a macho thing to me but again I could be wrong.

[sangh0]

4. "AA is a race-based program" is RNC propoganda

and since AA already includes income as a criteria, excluding race in exchange for including income (which is already included) is a reduction in the AA program.

If a poor person is discriminated against on the basis of their income, we all agree they should be protected by AA. So why shouldn't a person who is discriminated against based on their race also be protected by AA?

Dean never explains that. It's also important to note that this statement occurred at a time when the Republicans were attacking Clinton over AA. In response, Clinton came up with "Mend it, don't end it". Too bad Dean chose to oppose Clinton's efforts to protect AA.

[TLM]

162. Why the dishonesty... oh yeah forgot who I was talking to

Here is Dean response, that ends your entire attack...


`That's about help for people who don't have any money, and I think we should do that. But I also think affirmative action has to be about race, and I've said that all throughout this campaign,'' Dean said.


Why is it you think that the fact Dean wants to look at programs like AA for helping poor folks of all colors, somehow means he is against AA for race? Why must it be either/or and not both?

Does one have to ignore poor whites in order to support AA for blacks? Why can't both groups get help?

[killbotfactory]

7. You can take quotes out of context and make people sound bad! Wow!

Who knew?

Sharpton's just jealous.

[sangh0]

9. Look at the Dean defenders

1) Twisting words
2) Taking quotes out of context
3) Sharpton supporters
4) Kerry supporters (hasn't actually appeared yet, but it will)
5) Anything but addressing the actual positions and statements Dean has made

[Egnever]

16. Well as a dean suporter

I am not sure I see what you find wrong with this position other than the fact that Al is trying to use it as a criticism.

If you think Dean is a racist and is for anything but lifting up all people in this country. You are way off base.

It apears to be more of an instance of trying to find anything to take the man down than actually taking the time to see what he stands for.

You mind aparently though is allready made up. Dean is the devil.

If thats the way you feel run with it I guess. We can talk again after the primaries when hopefully we will all be on the same page again.

[sangh0]

20. What's wrong with it

1) It's no different than the Republican's position on AA
2) AA is a program meant to remedy and reduce discrimination. You can't remedy or reduce racial discrimination is you remove race as a criteria.

So keep talking about me and my opinions. Maybe no one will notice that aside from one sentence, your post has nothing to do with Dean's position on AA, which is the subject of this thread.

[Egnever]

98. sry but i dont adhear to the all republican points are wrong theory

So you can throw 1) out for me

As far as 20 is concerned

the small portion of the quote we have here seems to indicate restructuring AA to include class as a qualifier not eliminating race entirely as a criteria.

You keep saying that it allready takes income into consideration but I cant find an indication of that anywhere. If you could point me to something that confirms this It would help.

Without a device allready in place to take social situation into account . I think it is a weaker piece of legislation than it could be.

I am 100% behind eliminating race as an issue in any situation.

However I dont see any problem whatsoever with deans sugestion of including income status as a portion of the criteria used when aplying AA in any situation.

The idea that dean wants to eliminate race from AA entirely is completely false.

[sangh0]

101. Which part of "not race"

suggest not eliminating race?

You keep saying that it allready takes income into consideration but I cant find an indication of that anywhere. If you could point me to something that confirms this It would help

College admissions, or are you unaware that they take income into account?

I am 100% behind eliminating race as an issue in any situation.

And how do you propose fighting racial discrimination if we can't use race in any situation?

However I dont see any problem whatsoever with deans sugestion of including income status as a portion of the criteria used when aplying AA in any situation.

The problem is that it deceitfully implies that income ISN'T already used.

The idea that dean wants to eliminate race from AA entirely is completely false.


Which part of "not race" suggests not eliminating race?

[Egnever]

114. I think you missunderstood what i said

I am 100% behind eliminating race as an issue in any situation.

What I am syaing here is I support any legislation that advances the idea that race should not be allowed to play a part in hiring or admission policy. By saying that I mean that decisions should be bassed soley on merit race should play absolutely no part in the decision.

it seems you are trying to imply that the decisions should be made based soley on the color of ones skin or gender. and I think that leads to a gross mishandling of these decisions. The idea that someone should be hired/ addmited soley because they are of a moinority group regardless of experiance or background is incredibly simple minded and doesnt address racial inequality except by some sort of quota approach which is counter productive IMHO.

Hiring a rocket scientist just because he is a minority no matter what thier qualifications are is foolish.

Colledge addmision policies are decided by the institutions themselves I have yet to find any evidence anywhere that AA plays any part whatsoever in thier policy regarding monetary positions.

So Unless you can show me otherwise I will have to asume your statement is not only missleading but outright false.

[sangh0]

121. I dont misunderstand

I am 100% behind eliminating race as an issue in any situation.

That's pretty clear. So how do you propose we fight and remedy racial discrimination if we are not allowed to use race as an issue "in any situation"?

it seems you are trying to imply that the decisions should be made based soley on the color of ones skin or gender.

Then let me clarify - I did not say that or imply it. I have said that race should be a factor. I have never said that it should be the only factor.

Hiring a rocket scientist just because he is a minority no matter what thier qualifications are is foolish

Which is why AA does not do that. AA does nothing for anyone if they're not qualified for the job. Whatever made you think differently?

Colledge addmision policies are decided by the institutions themselves I have yet to find any evidence anywhere that AA plays any part whatsoever in thier policy regarding monetary positions.

Earlier you said AA was required. Now, it's up to the institution? I'm confused by your statement.

[tishaLA]

164. Great post

You're absolutely right: the idea isn't that we hire a rocket scientist, doctor, or janitor BECAUSE of his or her race, but that we USE it as a factor. I'm really stymied by some people's decision to frame this debate as one that takes away choice, when in fact it enriches choice.

[Hep]

197. It isn't A! It's A!

You're absolutely right: the idea isn't that we hire a rocket scientist, doctor, or janitor BECAUSE of his or her race, but that we USE it as a factor. I'm really stymied by some people's decision to frame this debate as one that takes away choice, when in fact it enriches choice.

Using it as a factor IS hiring someone because of their race. Let's stop trying to make it sound like something it isn't. The whole point is that all things being equal (which=unequal) we give preference to the minority. And opponents say, "Why should we do that?" And we say, "Because for several centuries we actively and consciously did the exact OPPOSITE."

Affirmative Action in this context is about race. Not partly about it. Race isn't a factor in AA it IS AA. And there's a damn good reason for that, and a damn good reason why we need it. And it isn't the solution to all of our ills, but it is important.

[Egnever]

217. you are just full of missinformation aparently

AA is required but it has absolutely nothing to do with thier policy regarding financial status in admissions.

I can see why you are confused though as you have no understanding whatsoever of what AA is or why it is used in Colleges.

once again since you seem loathe to hear it.

AA has no provisions whatsoever regarding financial status.

[TLM]

178. Please quote the part where DEan said he wanted to repeal race based AA

What DEan says in the quote you keep hacking apart is that we should look at ADDITIONAL programs that do what AA does, but for all disadvantaged folks, not just those of a given race or gender.


At no point does Dean say he wants to get rid of race based AA or roll it back, and in fact said exactly the oppsite that he supports AA. But he wants to look at AA programs that are not based on race, IN ADDITION to existing programs that are.

Guess that's why, once again, you can't post the whole quote or the context, because it doesn't support your attacks.


Sharpton also cited a Dean remark from April 9, 1995 in which he was questioned on affirmative action. Dean said: ``You know, I think we ought to look at affirmative action programs based, not on race, but on class and opportunities to participate.''

Dean called himself a ``vigorous supporter'' of affirmative action and explained the 1995 remark to reporters while in Las Vegas for two private fund-raisers.

``That's about help for people who don't have any money, and I think we should do that. But I also think affirmative action has to be about race, and I've said that all throughout this campaign,'' Dean said.

[Hep]

25. Don't bother!

Dean is the antichrist. We just have to get used to the FACT that we support satan's platform!

[sangh0]

27. Not anti-christ. Republican

.

[Bertrand]

104. Dean

isnt a Republican. I agree that he definitly hasnt clarified this issue, but he's obviously a Democrat so i dont think there is a need to go there. Maybe "conservative" would be a better word to use if you feel he is agreeing with more on the right on this issue.

[janekat]

18. Dean's on welfare recipients: If they had self-esteem, they'd be working

Just wait til Sharpton gets a hold of this statement that Dean made in

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20030526&s=farrell

Dean said some welfare recipients "don't have any self-esteem. If they did, they'd be working" and scaled back Vermont's welfare program, reducing cash benefits and imposing strict time limits on single mothers receiving welfare assistance.

[sangh0]

21. So let's make "self-esteem" a crieria for AA

and in exchange, we'll eliminate race as a criteria

[Hep]

29. Still pulling out the old No Wellstone article!

What I love is when people freebase quotes! Of course JaneKat knows more about how Dean feels toward the impoverished than anyone. She's been close with the dean campaign for, uh, how long?

And we all know the best proof of how eeeevil Dean is will come from an active Green/Kucinich supporter like Jim Farrell.

[sangh0]

36. Still can't defend Dean's republican position

that we eliminate the use of race as a criteria?

[Hep]

41. *cough*

As a good friend put it:

I think we need to be especially wary of propaganda in the
"progressive"sectors of the press, even what few there are. Not everyone is pleased that Dean is a left-centrist progressive. The extreme left that was looking at doing further damage to the Democratic Party is not pleased. And the centrists who are trying to commandeer the Democratic Party are not pleased. And there's a whole lot of smoke being generated that only thoughtful process will cure. Part of what we learned painfully in 2000 was not only do we elect a President, but we elect a President's team.

When I look at Dean's team, I see a whole bunch of very informed and
forward thinking people. These articles that keep popping up on both
sides of the fence are horribly filled with rhetorical tricks of the
worst kind. I hope you see through them. The article from _The Nation_
could be used to make a rather long textbook on deceptive
argumentation. I'm very disappointed in Jim Farrell.

[TLM]

68. This lie has already been exposed for what it is...

The very fact you can only quote pieces of sentences to prop up this attack proves how weak it is.

WHat Dean said was that welfare is a trap, people on welfare WANT to work but often can not escape the welfare system without risking the loss of health insurance and have no way to care for their kids while they work. Being stuck in that trap does rob many of the self-esteem that they would get from working.

Tell me Jane, do you know anybody that is proud to be on welfare?


And yes Dean did scale back VT welfare program, but he did it the right way, by providing health care, child care, and job training programs to help people get off welfare. But mentioning that fact might hurt your attack, so you'll just pretend that didn't happen.

[DrGonzoLives]

72. When did he say it? What was the context?

Certain columnists that people quote here on DU have an alarming ability to take Dean quotes out of any kind of context and use them against him. Or just make them up outright. When did he say this? Is there a news article where it is quoted? Did he say anything else before or after that statement?

[sangh0]

76. Here's a link

http://deandefense.org/archives/000017.html

It's from a pro-Dean website, and it reports that Dean admits to having said it, and apologized for it, but if you mention it on DU, you get accused of "quoting out of context" even though Dean himself thinks it was wrong for him to say that.

[DrGonzoLives]

94. OK

I asked for information, and you get snotty. Excuse me. Unlike most DUers, I have other things to do during the day than look up dirt on the candidates I don't like.

I don't suppose it matters at all to you that he apologized? Nope, of course not, he said it, he must believe it! :eyes:

[NewYorkerfromMass]

103. O.K. so what's going to stop Dean from saying further stupid things

down the road? He doesn't help himself with all these gaffes, and it doesn't help reinforce a picture of Dean for those trying to paint one.

[TLM]

112. well considering you folks have to dig for a fucking decade

to find one sentence to chop out of context and lie about in order to attack Dean, I'd say Dean's doing a damn good job.


Tell me how far back in Sharpton or Clark's past do we need to look to find them saying something stupid like Himie-town or that reagan and bush were great leaders to whom we should be greatful?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

118. Uhh.... Jesse Jackson made the hymie town remark.

and between Medicare and social security and the retirement age we've had plenty of muddy thinking from Dean just this calendar year.

[Hep]

126. This calendar year?

Here we go again! I knew we didn't have to wait long for it to come around again.

Please show me Dean's muddy thinking THIS CALENDAR YEAR on any, preferably ALL of the topics you listed. And please do it THIS CALENDAR YEAR.

Thanks!

[TLM]

190. Oh my mistake... what was the anti-semitic thing Sharpton said?

I know he took some heat not to long ago for something he said or did that pissed off jewish groups.

... after a quick google search, this is what I was thinking of...

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110004192

Mr. Sharpton is best-known for the Tawana Brawley hoax, in which he insisted that a 15-year-old black girl had been abducted and raped by a band of white men practicing Irish Republican Army rituals. In fact she had made up the story to protect herself from her violent stepfather.

But at Freddy's, Mr. Sharpton was even more malevolent. He turned a landlord-tenant dispute between the Jewish owner of Freddy's and a black subtenant into a theater of hatred. Picketers from Mr. Sharpton's National Action Network, sometimes joined by "the Rev." himself, marched daily outside the store, screaming about "bloodsucking Jews" and "Jew bastards" and threatening to burn the building down.

After weeks of increasingly violent rhetoric, one of the protesters, Roland Smith, took Mr. Sharpton's words about ousting the "white interloper" to heart. He ran into the store shouting, "It's on!" He shot and wounded three whites and a Pakistani, whom he apparently mistook for a Jew. Then he set the fire, which killed five Hispanics, one Guyanese and one African-American--a security guard whom protesters had taunted as a "cracker lover." Smith then fatally shot himself.

Eight people died, and so evidently did the conscience of liberal Democrats. It was Al Sharpton who had the honor of asking the first question at last week's debate, held within hailing distance of the Freddy's massacre.

[Hep]

123. For the record

it was Jesse Jackson who used the phrase "Hymietown"

[sangh0]

124. The irony

to mention SHarpton on DU when every thread about Sharpton has a reference to Tawana Brawley, which happened years before Dean made this remark.

[TLM]

235. That because the Tawana Brawley scam is far far worse than anything

Dean has ever said or done.

Fraud of that magnitude has no half life.

[Hep]

113. He doesn't hurt himself either

I think it's kinda silly to jump on evrey gaffe. Bush makes a dozen a day and he's no worse off.

[sangh0]

109. Snotty?

I said nothing about you. Get a grip.

And of course it matters that he apologized. But don't you think Dean's proclivity for making such remarks is a valid consideration. Just look at what they did with "I didn't inhale"

And it's not "he said it, he must believe it" It's "What was he thinking?" I have NEVER said anything like that.

[Forkboy]

189. Sounds like someone has got you pegged

[TLM]

99. He did say this years ago in an interview I think...

talking about welfare reform... but the little snipit is taken out of context to make it sound like dean is saying people are on welfare BECUASE the have low self-esteem. When what he said was the other way around, that being traped on welfare robs you of your self-esteem.

[Bertrand]

107. Provide the context then, please

i'd like to get a better understanding of the comment.

[TLM]

108. I do not have it handy at the moment....

as I am at work.

I'll post it when I get home... in about 3 hours.


I think you can find it on google by searching for the quote... but I'll post what I have later.

[sangh0]

110. TLM is spinning

Even Dean apologized for the remark, so TLM's claim that it only looks bad because it was "quoted out of context" is disingenous.

I posted a link in another post in this thread if you're interested. The link is to one of Dean's website.

[Egnever]

127. That link makes no mention of

AA at all unless you were looking in the comments?

[sangh0]

133. Of course it doesn't

It's in response to TLM's false claim that Dean's WELFARE statement was taken out of context.

[Egnever]

143. Ahh

Sory I thought this was a thread about Dean and affirmative action

[sangh0]

148. Your forgiven

for thinking there's some sort of thread-Nazi making sure everyone stays on topic

[TLM]

132. If I am spining, and not you... then surely you'll be happy to post

the whole Dean quote, in context and the full text of the statement he made a few days later to correct any misconceptions about what he meant.

Since, if you are not lying your biased ass off, these full quotes in context will support your claims... why not post them? Why continue to hide your attacks behind half a sentence that's cut out of context?


Surely you have the full quotes, don't you? I mean only a sleazy lying sack of dog crap would accuse somebody of spining when he doesn;t even have the full quotes and doesn;t know the context.

So post the full quotes, and with the full quotes, explain how they support your attacks on DEan.

[sangh0]

Here you go!

http://deandefense.org/archives/000017.html

Even Dean said it was a mistake for him to say that. If the quote was taken out of context, then why did Dean apologize for it?

[Egnever]

141. Great link but it has nothing to do with AA

[sangh0]

134. Here you go!

http://deandefense.org/archives/000017.html

Even Dean said it was a mistake for him to say that. If the quote was taken out of context, then why did Dean apologize for it?

[FubarFly]

146. So you don't have the actual quote then?

In the link you presented it said Dean apologized for misspeaking.
That's it.

Context will require the actual apology so we know how he misspoke.

Perhaps he admitted he was wrong and changed his position, or perhaps he apologized for not making his position clear, which of course would amount nothing more then a verbal gaffe- from 1995 no less.

[sangh0]

149. The link has the actual quote

.

[FubarFly]

154. No, I'm looking for the apology.

I am already aware of the gaffe.

Unless I am missing it:

Farrell claims: Dean toughened Vermont’s welfare system and doesn’t think welfare recipients have self-esteem.

Truth: Dean did reform and improve Vermont’s welfare system and here’s what the most comprehensive research study shows:
o Vermont’s welfare system increased employment and reduced reliance on cash assistance for single-parent families
o Vermont’s welfare system did not harm child and family well-being, kept family incomes steady and transferred their income from public assistance to better paying jobs.
o The reform of Vermont’s welfare system was accomplished without significantly increasing the cost of the old welfare system while it was being replaced.
o About 10,006 families were on welfare when the reform began in June ‘96 and the current caseload as of May ’01 had dropped to 5,609 – a 44% drop.

Dean has continued his leadership on welfare issues by speaking out and testifying before Congress against the Bush Administration’s efforts to extend work requirements without adequate child care and support services for families.

In addition, during his tenure as Governor, Dean ensured better health care for Vermonters of all incomes, making sure that welfare reform didn’t mean health care nightmares for families. As for the remark that Farrell quotes, Dean apologized for misspeaking on the matter the next day.

:shrug:

[TLM]

157. Here is the actual information from a VT paper...

http://www.rutlandherald.com/election2000/deancrit.html
During one of his weekly news conferences in 1993, Dean was being questioned about some of his welfare reform proposals, when he uttered comments that drew sharp criticism from advocates and welfare recipients. In talking about the segment of the welfare population that receives benefits as a permanent means of support, Dean said: "Those recipients don't have any self-esteem. If they did, they'd be working. They'd be trying to get out of a system that is essentially saying to them: 'You don't have anything to contribute. Take our money and then go away and beat the system.'"

Dean apologized the next day, saying, "Those remarks really stepped over the line."

Earlier this week, Dean defended his criticism of Dwyer, saying his comments were not nearly as disparaging as Dwyer's and he never intended to contribute to the negative stereotyping of people on welfare.


"I understand that a person is a person, no matter where they are on economic spectrum," he said. "When I realized my remarks were hurtful, I apologized.

"It came out differently in the paper than what I meant. What I meant was being on welfare can be really, really hard and the transition to work from welfare helps people feel fulfilled in their lives."

[FubarFly]

160. Thanks TLM

:yourock:

Just as I expected, an unfortunate gaffe which IMHO he sincerely apologized for.

[sangh0]

169. SO how was it "taken out of context"?

And if that were true, then why did Dean say "Those remarks really stepped over the line." ?

[FubarFly]

184. Maybe you missed the part in bold:

In talking about the segment of the welfare population that receives benefits as a permanent means of support

He wasn't talking about all welfare recepients, only a specific segment.
He still said something that was insensitive, and he apologized for it.

Whether you accept that apology or not is entirely up to you, but at least now people who read this thread will know what Dean was actually talking about, and can make up their own minds whether or not they think the Nation piece was being fair.

[sangh0]

192. Once again

then why did Dean apologize?

He still said something that was insensitive, and he apologized for it.

Yes, it was insensitive. That's the point. Dean is insensitive

[FubarFly]

200. No the point is Dean was being insensitive, realized it,

and showed sensitivity by apologizing.

Which would answer the question:

"Why did Dean apologize?"

[TLM]

221. Exactly... he didn't miss it, he IGNORED it because to include it

would make for less effective vitrol and hate spew at DEan. SO he just pretends Dean was talking about anyody on welfare.


"He wasn't talking about all welfare recepients, only a specific segment. He still said something that was insensitive, and he apologized for it."


And reading what he said I get the impression he simply switched up part of his sentence... saying that if they had self esteem they'd be working, when he meant if they were wroking they'd have self esteem.

In his later statement he made that clear that when he read what he said in the paper it did not come off as he had meant. I think that was rather clear...

[TLM]

156. That link has no quote... just a response to the "No Wellstone" hit piece

As expected, you haven;t got the quote, do you?

You're just puking up someone else's attacks without any knowledge of the real quote or context.



Here is what can be found at that link.


Farrell claims: Dean toughened Vermont’s welfare system and doesn’t think welfare recipients have self-esteem.

Truth: Dean did reform and improve Vermont’s welfare system and here’s what the most comprehensive research study shows:
o Vermont’s welfare system increased employment and reduced reliance on cash assistance for single-parent families
o Vermont’s welfare system did not harm child and family well-being, kept family incomes steady and transferred their income from public assistance to better paying jobs.
o The reform of Vermont’s welfare system was accomplished without significantly increasing the cost of the old welfare system while it was being replaced.
o About 10,006 families were on welfare when the reform began in June ‘96 and the current caseload as of May ’01 had dropped to 5,609 – a 44% drop.

Dean has continued his leadership on welfare issues by speaking out and testifying before Congress against the Bush Administration’s efforts to extend work requirements without adequate child care and support services for families.

In addition, during his tenure as Governor, Dean ensured better health care for Vermonters of all incomes, making sure that welfare reform didn’t mean health care nightmares for families. As for the remark that Farrell quotes, Dean apologized for misspeaking on the matter the next day.

[sangh0]

168. Here's the "dean's No Wellstone" link

http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20030526&s=farrell

"While Wellstone fought for people on welfare, Dean said some welfare recipients "don't have any self-esteem. If they did, they'd be working" and scaled back Vermont's welfare program, reducing cash benefits and imposing strict time limits on single mothers receiving welfare assistance. "

[mzmolly]

185. Here's the 'truth' link...

I live in Minnesota and lost much respect for Mr. Farrell after he apologized for the Wellstone Memorial. There was no apology necessary, he should have stood his ground and called out the BS. In fact, I think he is partially to blame for not handling the negative press, and thus handing the nomination to Coleman.

However, I know he worked for the same causes I have in the past, so I'll refrain from further comment.

"So here’s what Farrell claims, compared to Dean’s actual record:"

http://deandefense.org/archives/000017.html

[TLM]

223. And here's what you keep ignoring....

Dean was talking about those on welfare permanantly... when he said thet they have no self esteem.

Dean later said:

"I understand that a person is a person, no matter where they are on economic spectrum," he said. "When I realized my remarks were hurtful, I apologized.

"It came out differently in the paper than what I meant. What I meant was being on welfare can be really, really hard and the transition to work from welfare helps people feel fulfilled in their lives."


As I pointed out Dean was not saying people are on welfare BECUASE they are low on self-esteem, but rather than being stuck on welfare permanantly when they want to work, robs them of self esteem.

All Dean did here was phrase his statement poorly, and he corrected it shortly afterwards... which you ignore to push your attacks.

[demnan]

23. I agree with Dean

you take some areas in the country that are very depressed and the people don't get a good education and there's no money or jobs and I think you should provide them help regardless of their race.

They need Head Start and stuff like that in Appalachia. Also why shouldn't the child of an illiterate coal miner be considered for affirmative action just as much, or more, as a middle class Black from the suburbs of Washington, D.C.?

[sangh0]

28. Thats' a poverty program

AA is not a poverty program

Also why shouldn't the child of an illiterate coal miner be considered for affirmative action just as much, or more, as a middle class Black from the suburbs of Washington, D.C?

The illiterate coal miner's kid is also eligible for AA. The idea that this child is not is a lie promoted by the RNC.

[tishaLA]

30. So isn't the obvious solution to your hypothetical

to say "race AND class need to be considered"? Why JUST class--and since class is ALREADY considered, it would be a purely redundant statement anyhow.

[sangh0]

33. Not one Dean supporter has responded to that point

While some have defended the idea of using class (which is another deception because AA does consider income) NOT ONE has defended Dean's republican position that we should eliminate the use of race as an AA criteria

[1songbird]

95. You're absolutely right.

I'm waiting myself to hear it, but it's covered with useless rhetotic.

[TLM]

224. Because that's not Deans position... cite on quote where he says

"we should eliminate the use of race as an AA criteria"


You can;t do it, because all Dean said was we should look at additional programs like AA based on class and not race.

He said nothing about rolling back or gettign rid of race based AA and you know it.

[Hep]

37. Dean

is FOR affirmative action. He's against racial profiling. He's for giving everyone affordable health care, educational and job training opportunities, and early childhood visitation.

He covers class AND race issues. And it's all at his website.

[sangh0]

39. Can't you answer the question

So isn't the obvious solution to your hypothetical to say "race AND class need to be considered"?

And why can't you explain why Dean said we should eliminate race as a criteria?

[Hawkeye-X]

257. Cite please.

Provide proof that he SAID that? Don't show me that deandefense.com website because it basically shows that he *APOLOGIZED* for his over-the-line statement. If you can't provide proof, then you'll have to sit in the corner for the day and try again tomorrow on a *ENTIRELY* different topic.

Oh and don't PM me, either. I want to see it in public.

Hawkeye-X

[tishaLA]

40. How is it "racial profiling"

to say "yes, I support race-based affirmative action"? With all due respect, that is the most silly Orwell-speak this side of *. Really.

[Hep]

43. You have no idea what I'm saying, do you?

Sharpton says Dean's agenda is "Anti'Black". I'm pointing out several of his positions that demonstrate that he's nothing of the sort.

Dean is for Affirmative Action. Bottom line. To claim that he isn't is a lie, and to claim he changed his mind will require more than one sentence with no background information at all to back it up.

[sangh0]

46. In 1995, Dean said we should remove race as an AA criteria

and instead of defending that position (possibly because it's a deplorable republican position) you choose to distract with other issues like health care, and job training, etc.

[mzmolly]

53. Nope, expand AA to include classism....NT

[sangh0]

60. Dean said "not on race, but on class."

He wants to eliminate race as a criteria, just like the Repukes do.

[indigo32]

65. No he doesn't

read the article referenced. He clearly states he is for AA based on race. Having no context beyond that article for his statement in 95... it makes it a little hard for me to judge it.

[sangh0]

79. Yes he did. In 1995, he said "not race, but class"

but in 2003, when he's no longer a candidate in overwhelmingly white VT, he changed it to "race and class" without ever explaining why he wanted to eliminate race in 1995, a time when the Republicans were attacking Clinton over AA.

For context: 1995 was the year Clinton came out with "Mend it, don't end it" with respect to AA's use of race. Too bad Dean had to be on the other side of the US's 1st black President

[mzmolly]

173. Link please NT

[sangh0]

174. You're kidding, right?

It's in the first post.

[mzmolly]

220. "Your" kidding....

This 'scandal' is based on that quote ?! Slow news day man.

[SahaleArm]

227. Who said scandal?

It's Dean's opinion, he stated it and either believes in it or not. The falacy is that AA isn't based on a multitude of factors including but not exclusive to race, income, sex, geographic location, etc. I wish more people would read UM's AA admition policy, it would clear up any ambiguity.

[Hep]

238. UM isn't an AA program

It is an admissions program that incorporates AA structurally.

UM's admissions policy is probably the most fair that I've seen at ANY school.It's well thought out and benefits everyone.

But it isn't the definition of AA, it's more like an instance where AA is appropriately applied in principle.

[SahaleArm]

253. Fair enough, what's the legal defintion?

The SCOTUS decision was narrowly tailored to university admissions policy: http://www.umich.edu/news/Releases/2003/Jun03/supremecourt.html

[Hep]

256. AA

The SCOTUS decision was narrowly tailored to university admissions policy:

That's because the case involved the university. I think they were addressing whether or not UM had a quota system. They upheld the UM policy of considering race in admissions. But as you know, OUR argument all along was that race wasn't the only consideration. We kinda argued that it wasn't this monster called "AA" that sought to take spots away from white kids, which quite frankly, AA is. Not the monster part, of course.

The definition I found is this:

Positive steps to enhance the diversity of some group, often to remedy the cumulative effect of subtle as well as gross expressions of prejudice.

But I won't say how legally accurate it is.

Because AA is not just about money and it's not just about education, and it's not just about jobs. There's a different underlying theme that ties it all together. And that's race. Or in the broader sense, race, age, and gender.

[Hep]

32. It's one of the reasons

the U of Michigans admittance policy is so worthy of our respect.

Sharpton was dead wrong, and until now I didn't think that he was so cynical that he would use one sentence from 8 years ago to try to discredit a campaign.

[sangh0]

38. Still can't defend Dean's republican opinion

that race should be eliminated as a criteria for AA? Is attacking others the only thing you can do?

[mzmolly]

243. Dean NEVER said race should be 'eliminated' ...

He said the criteria should be expanded to include class and opportunity.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

44. What About This Sentence?

In February 2002, Dean said his big donors are given special access. While Wellstone fought for people on welfare, Dean said some welfare recipients "don't have any self-esteem. If they did, they'd be working" and scaled back Vermont's welfare program, reducing cash benefits and imposing strict time limits on single mothers receiving welfare assistance.

This is simply a shocking statement. I'd never seen it before, and I am still shocked as I type this.

From February 2002!

DTH

[Hep]

87. Which sentence?

The paraphrase?

[TLM]

106. I'm shocked you continue to push this lie...

given that I have personally pointed out to you several times that the quote in that hit piece is misleading and if you read the context of Dean's statement it is clear he wasn’t saying that people are on welfare because they have low self esteem, but that being trapped on welfare and being unable to work when you want to work because of the system, takes away your self-esteem.

Perhaps you'd care to quote the whole statement by Dean and not just the half a sentence used in the hit piece... I would but I do not have the piece handy right now. I'm sure you have the whole quote in context, right... since we all know you wouldn't stoop so sickeningly low as to parrot hit pieces with no idea of their validity, right?

[sangh0]

115. You're pushing a lie

http://deandefense.org/archives/000017.html

Even Dean admits he said it, and that he was wrong to say it.

[TLM]

226. Once again... you're ignoringthe context... so here it is again.

http://www.rutlandherald.com/election2000/deancrit.html

During one of his weekly news conferences in 1993, Dean was being questioned about some of his welfare reform proposals, when he uttered comments that drew sharp criticism from advocates and welfare recipients. In talking about the segment of the welfare population that receives benefits as a permanent means of support, Dean said: "Those recipients don't have any self-esteem. If they did, they'd be working. They'd be trying to get out of a system that is essentially saying to them: 'You don't have anything to contribute. Take our money and then go away and beat the system.'"
Dean apologized the next day, saying, "Those remarks really stepped over the line."

Earlier this week, Dean defended his criticism of Dwyer, saying his comments were not nearly as disparaging as Dwyer's and he never intended to contribute to the negative stereotyping of people on welfare.

"I understand that a person is a person, no matter where they are on economic spectrum," he said. "When I realized my remarks were hurtful, I apologized.

"It came out differently in the paper than what I meant. What I meant was being on welfare can be really, really hard and the transition to work from welfare helps people feel fulfilled in their lives."

[TLM]

225. That two quotes from two different things smashed together...

The welfare quote is from 95... and is way out of context.


And the big donor quote is from last year regarding the personal access individuals get for donating larger sums of money.

You donate 100 bucks and you get a ticket to the rally, but 500 gets you to the vip meet and greet. He's not talking about big corproate donors... but individuals.

[janekat]

199. Well then support Clark or Kucinich who both say they support it

n/t

[Hep]

232. I'll happily vote for either

if he wins the nomination.

[killbotfactory]

42. Sharpton "I'm being set up!"

Mr. Sharpton was incensed this month when he heard that Representative Jackson was going on a South Carolina campaign trip with Dr. Dean. "I know I am being set up, sabotaged, they ain't got to say it," he said, at a church appearance, in oblique reference to that trip.

It's all sour grapes.

Mr. Jackson says he believes, as do most other Democrats, that Mr. Bush is vulnerable in 2004. He says voters who supported him in 1988 can be galvanized behind a Democrat this year if that candidate focuses on the economy and foreign policy.

And who is doing the best job of hitting those themes? The first name Mr. Jackson mentioned was Dr. Dean. "I think because Dean was out there on it first, unequivocally, he picked up early traction on this."

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/29/politics/campaigns/29JESS.html?pagewanted=2

[Loonman]

45. All Dean has to say is two words:

Tawana Brawley.

[sangh0]

47. Dean would lose

the black vote if he did that. Black people know when a politician is using tried and true racist attacks on one of their own, and even if they don't like Sharpton, they sure as heck aren't going to vote for a white guy who uses the same tactics as the bigots in the RNC.

[Loonman]

48. I have no horse in this race

I don't care for either candidate, but I still believe Sharpton has a credibility problem.

I could give a shit about his skin color.

[sangh0]

51. Well, duh!

Sharpton has a credibility problem

But that doesn't change the fact that if Dean were to attack Sharpton over Tawana, he's gonna lose a lot of black votes.

[JaneQPublic]

64. "Sistah Soldiah"

Uttered by the first Black president of the U.S.

"Black people know" -- you're speaking for the entire Black population now?

[sangh0]

86. The irony

Comparing Clinton to Dean when in 1995, Clinton defended the use of race in AA, while Dean took the Republican's side and said we should eliminate the use of race.

INstead of attacking me, why don't you try defending Dean's position that we should eliminate race in AA?

[indigo32]

54. In the article referenced here

Dean clearly states he supports race based AA. Now not knowing any of the context of the 95 statement at all... I'm not going to try and defend or oppose it. But his position in 2003 is quite clear. End of story as far as I'm concerned.

[killbotfactory]

61. It's interesting that his 95 quote...

Does not in any way imply that he wants to stop race-based affimative action, but does imply he wants to look into class-based affirmative action. Even without the full context, the quote is benign.

[sangh0]

67. Dean said "not on race, but on class."

It's amazing how some people seem to think that Dean is saying we should use race as a criteria. Which part of "not race" is so difficult to comprehend?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

81. Oh, They Comprehend It

They just refuse to accept it, and instead prefer to spin, spin, spin.

DTH

[killbotfactory]

136. Since I have the other poster on ignore...

which part of Dean's statements does he say we should repeal affirmative action based on race?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

247. The Part Where He Says AA Should Not Be Based on Race

What part of the word "not" do you not understand?

DTH

[RetroLounge]

97. Wah Freaking Wah...

Whatsamatter, Dean kick your dog or something?

[sangh0]

135. Dean's being anti-AA is enough

He doesn't have to kick my dog

on edit: And no, I don't beat my wife

[Hawkeye-X]

258. What part of...

Dean is "FOR AA" do you NOT understand?

I think you need to punish yourself by RE-READING all of Dean's policies and make it clear yourself before you open your fat mouth.

Hawkeye-X

[TLM]

229. The part where he said we shoudl roll back or repeal race based AA

See SHango, I'm still waiting for that quote. So far all you've got is a quote where Dean says we should look at ADDITIONAL programs like AA that are based on class, not race, to also help those disadvantaged folks who are not in a minority group.

[sangh0]

62. Quite Clear?

Saying one thing in 1995 ("not on race, but on class") and then saying something different in 2003 makes his position "quite clear"?

Doesn't a record count for anything anymore?

[indigo32]

69. Look

until I know what the full quote from 95 was... I'm refraining judgement on it.

[sangh0]

137. Of course you refrain from judgement

even though Dean doesn't deny saying "not race, but class"

[TLM]

231. You now have to cut the quote down to FOUR words, to hide the context

because even the context of the whole sentence shows you're lying your ass off about Dean being against AA.

The whole sentance shows Dean is not talking about taking the race standard out of AA but rather looking at new programs like AA that would work like AA but for class, not race.

He's talking about using AA as a model for more programs to help disadvantaged folks.

Why do you insist on lying about it?

[DrGonzoLives]

77. So let's talk about Kucinch's abortion record

Up until about a year ago, I think, he was very much against abortion. Now he is running for president, and is pro-choice.

How do you explain that? How is it OK for Kucinich to switch a position and not for Dean (and frankly, I'm not sure that Dean has ever believed anything different than he does now)?

For the record, I like Kucinich.

[Hep]

96. WHo cares about kucinich?

If Kucinich were in the lead, all of this would be about him, not Dean. Let the kids throw their rocks.

[haymaker]

130. Oh for Christ's sake, Sangy

Saying eight years ago that maybe affirmative action should consider class as opposed to just considering race is not some kind of 5th degree felony that you seem to be making it out to be.

While I do support affirmative action, I don't think it is so absolutely terrible to say that maybe we should consider class. After all, aren't most African American and other minorities in the lower classes with regard to wealth and income. These are the classes he was talking about I'm sure.

Actually, if affirmative action was framed as more of a helping hand to all lower classes, not just by race, maybe some of the animosity that it conjures up would disappear. Now wouldn't that be nice. We could help the minority communities, as well as other poor, but wihtout all the animosity. Who would have thunk it. Now I see it as brilliant actually.

So take an oxycontin and calm the fuck down. Hysterical much?

[sangh0]

140. Misleading

Eight years ago, AA DID consider income, and it still does.

I don't think it is so absolutely terrible to say that maybe we should consider class

Neither do I, but Dean said more than that. Dean said we should ELIMINATE race as a criteria, and substitute class instead, even though income was ALREADY being used.

Actually, if affirmative action was framed as more of a helping hand to all lower classes, not just by race, maybe some of the animosity that it conjures up would disappear.

IMO if so-called liberals stopped believing the Republican lie that AA is about helping poor people when it's really about remedying and reducing DISCRIMINATION (not poverty) we'd be doing a much better job of eliminating the racist-inspired animosity AA arouses.

So stop pretending you know what AA is "about", and calm the fuck down yourself.

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

172. You don't know what you're talking about

All you can do is blather about what a smart knowledgeable person you are while you go about supporting the republican's agenda. You might want to put a pause in your rant and take the time to education yourself, but that might take some effort.

Bush* agrees with you, and says that AA is a poverty program and shouldn't use race as a factor. Ward Connerly also agrees. I don't suppose you know who Ward Connerly is, do you?

[haymaker]

254. You hysterical housefly.

Do you read? I said AA is fine with me. I just know better than to attack a Democratic candidate about 8 year old statements that aren't all that relevent right this minute. Make sure Karl notes in the building your efforts and keep saying I'm doing what you, yourself are doing.

My point is this, my delusional interloper, you are attacking Dean because you want to see him fail and will do anything to make it happen. Even dig up old shit and get wildly hysterical about it. Just support your guy and shut the fuck up about the others. Unless your plan is to bring down the others.

Now get back to your OBVIOUS and needless and damaging sabotage. Or better yet, just vote for Bush and shut your mouth.

Now hit the alert button because you cannot bear to let others see my boot up your exposed ass, you coward.

[indigo32]

55. oops

dupe

[indigo32]

56. Oops

dupe

[mzmolly]

63. Al Sharpton - uninformed about Howard Dean...

...or he's just pissed about Jesse Jackson Jr. not endorsing him.

*reposted from locked thread*

Howard Dean's record...

Equality. Building on a commitment to equal rights for all Americans, Governor Dean has signed into law tougher penalties for hate crimes, as well as tighter restrictions against discrimination in the workplace, housing, public accommodations, and more. Vermont is the first state to legally recognize long-term committed unions between gay and lesbian couples.

Education. Unlike other leading states...Vermont has adopted a system of sharing educational dollars across the state, so schools in poor communities have the same financial backing as those in wealthy communities.


Health Care. "As access to health insurance has declined for all but the wealthiest, it's tempting to define America's health care crisis only in economic terms. However, our healthcare system isn't plagued only by costly insurance premiums, but also by the lingering impact of institutional racism and other assorted biases.

...As President I will:

Press for the immediate passage of the Healthcare Equality and Accountability Act of 2003 sponsored by The Congressional Black Caucus, The Congressional Hispanic Caucus, The Congressional Asian Pacific American Caucus and The Native American Caucus. This bill is a road map to making America a healthier nation and I will follow it.
Create the post of Assistant Secretary for Minority Health within the Department of Health and Human Services. The job of the Assistant Secretary for Minority Health would be to not only coordinate all of the federal government's initiatives to eliminate racial health disparities in health, but to remind all Americans that it's their fight, too."

Capital Punishment-Equal Justice: "As President, I would:

Promptly instruct my Attorney General to evaluate the federal death penalty system, take steps to ensure that it is applied fairly and reliably, and reverse Ashcroft’s overzealous policies.

Push for passage of the federal Innocence Protection Act to strengthen protections against unjust imposition of the death penalty.

Establish a Presidential Commission on the Administration of Capital Punishment to analyze the causes of wrongful convictions around the country and recommend additional reforms at the federal and state level."

..."In 1997, Governor Dean signed into law the nation's most comprehensive mental health and substance abuse parity bill in the nation, ending discriminatory insurance practices against these major diseases."

Jobs/Wages. Under Dean’s tenure, Vermont added an astounding 56,000 new jobs, a 20% increase in the workforce.

Better wages – Governor Dean worked to create higher paying jobs. In 2001 the average income in Vermont grew 8th fastest in the country.

Quotes on Affirmative Action and Discrimination.

“We need affirmative action in this country, and we ought to stand up and say so and be proud of it as a society.

I'm tired of being divided. I'm tired of being divided by race, I'm tired of being divided by income, by gender, by religion. If this country is ever going to work, we have to acknowledge... that we are responsible for each other and to each other.” ~May 18, 2003.

“Let’s start calling racial profiling what it is—discrimination based upon race." (July 14, 2003)

"This is a civil rights issue, and that makes it a federal issue." (July 14, 2003)

"Racial discrimination is illegal in hiring, housing, and voting. It should be illegal as a law enforcement technique too." (July 14, 2003)

"Racial profiling is wrong.” (July 14, 2003)

Refs below:

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_health_racialdisparities

http://www.jfklibrary.net/pica_essay_winner_2001_dziczek.html

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_civilrights_affirmativeaction

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=policy_statement_civilrights_capitalpunishment

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=community_africanamericans

http://www.africanamericansfordean.com/AA/

http://www.fundforahealthyamerica.com/VermontRecord.asp

http://www.africanamericansfordean.com/AA/race.htm

http://www.africanamericansfordean.com/AA/issues/affirm_actn1.htm

PS

Dean supporters, feel free to add to the list.

[ozone_man]

255. Thanks msmolly for setting the record straight.

I guess Sharpton must have been pissed over Jesse Jackson Jr. backing Dean. Still, playing the race card, when there is no basis, is a senseless attack and says loads about Sharpton's character.

[mrgorth]

71. Sharpton is jealous

of the endorsement Howard is about to get. end of story.

[1songbird]

111. Speaking personally his words are relevant

and it has nothing to do with whether or not Sharpton is jealous. I want to look at all of the statements of a candidate in deciding whether or not he gets my vote. With AA being attacked so voraciously, I want a democrat that is consistent and will stand up and fight for the program. It is important that the candidate be consistent in his beliefs and not speak out of both sides of his mouth. I was leaning toward Dean but I will now have to seriously look at his past record and put his comments into perspective. Wes Clark is looking better and better.

[Hep]

117. Look at his platform and his vision

Dean supports AA. Dean knows that you can't have a productive discussion about race OR class in this society without talking about BOTH. He wants to give health care and educational opportunities to people who don't have it right now and won't as long as Bush is in office.

And please don't look at other people quoting him. Go to the source, and if no one offers the source, ask why.

[sangh0]

176. Dean said he wants to eliminate race as an AA factor

and not one Dean supporter can explain why that's OK. Instead, they ignore his flip-flop, and pretend his current position is the one he's had all along.

And the source is linked in the first post

[TLM]

240. No he did not SHang0 and you know it... what DEan said was that

we should look at programs like AA, meaning programs that are similar to AA programs, but that are set up to help based on class, not race.


He didn't say anywhere that AA should be rolled back or the race standard should be removed from AA... that is a flat out lie.

All he said was that we should look at similar programs to AA as a way to help all disadvantaged folks, not just minorities.

[TLM]

239. Might I suggest you look for the quote where Dean says get rid of AA

because you won;t find it... sicne it doesn't exist.


Dean was talking about developing programs... note his use of the plural, that model AA but use class instead of race.


Never once did he suggest getting rid of AA or taking the race requierment out of AA. Rahter he was takling about looking at programs that are like AA, only they are directed at helping all disadvantaged folks regardless fo race.

[mzmolly]

246. Exactly!

People are really grasping at straws and it's sad to see Sharpton go down that road.

[kang]

90. Because Sharpton needs to stay relevant

and that'll be harder to do if Jackson Jr. and other prominent African-American political leaders start endorsing candidates. His clout is eventually endorsing one of the remaining candidates. The more the value of that gets diluted, the less likely his chances are that he can achieve the level of influence that he desires.

There's a big hole right now in African-American politics where no new young leader has assumed the mantle that Jackson Sr. once held. Sharpton wants this. While he's big in NYC, this whole campaign's about becoming a bigger nat'l player.

To be honest, I think his charges against Dean are sort of weak. I think all of the major candidates support the Death Penalty, although I'd love it if one of them said they'd entertain a moratorium on the Federal one until a commission looked into it.

Finally, I think liberals should feel open about discussing how we can improve AA. Let's talk about the 10% rule and it's pros and cons without worrying about getting labeled or throwing around accusations. I attended a NAACP event a few months back and asked their legal defense official about whether he thought such class-focused versions would in fact strengthen AA's existence for a longer period since it would tie the interests of poor and rural white America to the policy as well, thus avoiding the divide and conquer strategy that conservatives have long used against AA. His response that if race isn't a component of the formula, minorities will inevitably get screwed. But he didn't respond to my main point. Many in the audience seemed open to the idea and are interested in more (*edit) just having to defend the status quo of gains that we've made.

[RetroLounge]

100. DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN

DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN
DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN DEAN

[theboss]

158. I'm shocked . . .SHOCKED!!

Al Sharpton groundlessly accused someone of racism? That never happens.

Al Sharpton needlessly interjected race into a discussion? Clutch the pearls.

Al Sharpton just undercut a leading Democrat to further his own agenda? I never heard of such a thing.

Al Sharpton doesn't own the suit he wore while making these inflamatory comments? Well, actually, that's pretty common.

I'm actually amazed this has not happened sooner. Sharpton is desperately trying to get a primetime speech at the convention. If this happens, it is going to be a disaster that will make Pat Buchanan's '92 speech look like Churchill. The fact that Democrats have been coddling Sharpton so far is going to bite us on the ass in a huge huge way.

I'm serious, Sharpton may have just cost us the election with this kind of talk. Dean is screwed if he wins. Either the Republicans run ads in saying that Dean is anti-black, which could kill him among the Dems most consistent voting bloc. Or they run ads showing him "selling out to Al Sharpton" which scares the ever-living hell out of suburbanites and southerners.

[Quahog]

175. My respect for Sharpton dropped about 90%

I was so disappointed when I read this statement.

I am no Deanie, I have a problem with many of his stances, but I think to resort to lies and distortion in a run against any opponent simply stinks.

What Sharpton seems to be saying is that affirmative action should apply to blacks only, regardless of socio-economic status. So the wealthy son of a black business owner should get preferential treatment in university admissions over a Latino or Asian living in poverty because....? Because we owe blacks for generations of slavery? Why does Sharpton think affirmative action exists? To further the careers of blacks only? Isn't it meant to provide opportunities to those who lack the wherewithall to buy opportunities as wealthy whites do so easily?

And this "support of the NRA agenda" thing is just stupid. Brady bill, Dean is for, NRA against. Assault weapons ban, Dean for, NRA against. Closing the gun show loophole, Dean for, NRA against. Making specific gun control laws above and beyond current federal regulations a matter for states to decide (Dean's position) is popular with the NRA only because they figure that in many states they are more likely to get more relaxed restrictions than they'd get from the feds. That hardly makes Dean a supporter of the NRA (more the other way around).

Why can't the candidates argue the issues based on truth rather than lies and distortions? Man, I thought Al was above this. He's got all the right positions, why does he have to lie to make his point?

So disappointing.

[sangh0]

180. Your post contains lies

What Sharpton seems to be saying is that affirmative action should apply to blacks only, regardless of socio-economic status.

Where did Sharpton say that?

Isn't it meant to provide opportunities to those who lack the wherewithall to buy opportunities as wealthy whites do so easily?

No, it's not.

Man, I thought Al was above this. He's got all the right positions, why does he have to lie to make his point?

He doesn't. Why do you?

[TLM]

245. Sharpton said "anti-black" not "anti-minority" or "anti-women"

So clearly, using your debate standard, Sharpton doesn't feel AA should apply to women or any minority other than blacks.

Why does sharpton hate women and other minorities?

[SahaleArm]

249. That's in response to..

Dean saying "income, not race". If Dean framed the statement as "income, not minority status and gender" then you would have a case. As it is your case is weak.

[TLM]

251. Of course it is weak... that my point! I'm using Shango's standard

for claiming Dean is against AA and wants to roll back the race aspect of AA.... based on 4 words cut from a sentence that itself was cut out of context.

[theboss]

186. You thought Sharpton was above lying?!?!?!?!?

Oh my.

Am I the only one who knew who Sharpton was prior to ten months ago? It seems like a lot of people saw him for the first time this summer and said, "My that man with the odd hair is entertaining" without looking at his record.

His career is built on distortions, false accusations, and dangerous hyperbole. He seeks to create racial divides where none exist. And he will betray the Democrats at a moment's notice.