"What Middle Tax Cuts?" Dean Asks. Well, these, according to Brookings...

[flpoljunkie]

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/articles/2003/10/29/the_democrats_tax_cut_gamble/

What middle-class tax cut?" Dean asked in Sunday's Democratic debate in Detroit. "On the average, 60 percent of the people in this country got a $304 tax cut."

Averages, however, are deceiving, because any such average includes the quarter of households that pay little or no income tax -- and thus got little or no break.

Using that non-income-tax-paying cohort to reduce the size of the average tax cut is as misleading in its own way as the Bush administration rhetoric that factors in the reduction for upper earners in order to inflate the average value of the tax break.

So what does an accurate picture look like? Consider these numbers from the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center.

Fully 31.5 percent of joint filers (married couples) got a tax break of between $2,001 and $5,000, with an average tax cut $3,096. Another 18 percent of joint filers saw their tax burden fall by between $1,201 and $2,000, with an average reduction of $1,622. In all, 54 percent of joint filers got a tax break of between $1,001 and $5,000.

When it comes to families with children, 40 percent got a tax break ranging from $2,001 to $5,000 (average: $3,151), while another 30 percent got a tax cut of $1,201 to $2,000 (average: $1,624).

more

[Rose Siding]

1. And by '06, 88% get less than $100

Citizens for Tax Justice

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/2003statecut.pdf

And the Globe's using "averages" which can be dramatically skewed by the income divide. Aren't medians more reliable?

[bearfartinthewoods]

6. so a vote for Dean will only cost 9,900 instead of 10,000

great news!!!!

[Frodo]

22. This is blatantly incorrect. And intentionally so.

It only takes the latest cuts into account, which were both smaller and less broadly applicable. The reason they get smaller year after year is that the 2001 cut already ahd the child credit increasing to $1,000. So once you get there in '06 there IS NO CUT (IF you only look at 2003).

Median's are perfectly reliable if you score them correctly (including ALL of the cuts that Dean, for instance, proposes getting rid of).

[chocura750]

2. Dean should propose real tax cuts

Dean should propose real tax cuts. Running on repeal of tax cuts loser.

[onebigbadwulf]

3. I think you missed the point

His point was...

even if you saved 3000 on a tax break... the resulting horrible economy led to..

thousands increased in property tax
thousands increased in college tuition
thousands increased in health care costs
thousands lost from wages because you got laid off.

Therefore the question "What tax break?" refers to the resulting debts that came from it.

[flpoljunkie]

10. The bottom line is: "Do you feel lucky?"

"The Democrats, of course, have tried it both ways on taxes in the last 20 years. In 1984, nominee Walter Mondale announced up front that he intended to raises taxes if elected. While it's unlikely Mondale would ever have beaten Ronald Reagan, a popular incumbent surfing the wave of a recovering economy, his tax-hike pledge helped make his campaign a nonstarter.

In 1992, Bill Clinton ran saying he would reduce the deficit by increasing taxes on upper earners but promised a tax cut for the middle class. Although Clinton never really delivered on the tax-cut pledge, his promise nevertheless had considerable appeal on the campaign trail, letting him deflect incumbent George H.W. Bush's charge that he was an inveterate tax raiser.

There, then, are the facts and the history. So, Democrats, you've got to ask yourself, do you feel lucky?

Well, do you?'

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/10/29/rivals_continue_to_pick_apart_deans_record/

[Lady President]

12. Question

I know I have a Kerry avatar, but this is a legitimate question I have about Dean's tax plan. I have seen many times how the tax cut is no where near enough to cover increased property taxes, increased tuition, health care, etc. I completely agree expenses have increased more than the amount of the tax cut. My question is how will the elimination of the cut help the middle class now? If the tax is repealed, property taxes, tuition, etc. will not be reduced, so wouldn't the average family have the same bills, but even less money to be able to pay them?

We can't unring the bell and put expenses back where they were prior to the ill-conceived tax cut, but don't we have a responsibility not to make it even harder on the middle class?

[ModerateMiddle]

19. This is an excellent point

However, because you have chosen a candidate, you will be demonized.

It's why I went back to a non-candidate avatar. My comments were dismissed out of hand for being biased.

But you are spot on. Those costs will take years to roll back, if they EVER are.

[mzmolly]

21. Yes we can. We can lower property taxes, tuition, health care costs...

etc.

[Lady President]

25. How?

How can any President lower property taxes, tuition, etc. and eliminate the middle class tax cuts? I can only think of two things that would happen:

1. The federal government requires all these costs to be lowered. If that happened, public schools and colleges would respond by eliminating all extras (sports, clubs, buses), as well as many teaching positions. This is the same tactic schools use to ensure a school levy will pass. The result would be more "children left behind" which no one wants.

2. The federal government could put a freeze on increasing these costs. If this happened, then the middle class would have the same costs, but without the extra money from the tax cut.

[madfloridian]

4. What income range are they calling middle class?

Just curious, as I don't remember the definition of Middle Class.
I know we thought we were, and we did not get any tax cut.

[Rose Siding]

5. They used averages

The income amts would be very relevant before buying into those stats.

[AP]

11. If 30%-40% are getting the tax cut, that's a lot of middle class people.

Only 1% of Americans have income over 300K. 30-40% is going to include lots of people with incomes of 40K.

The shame is that lots of rich people who don't need the marriage credit are getting it. When a 1million buck earner gets that credit, it's outrageous. You could give a poor married person double that credit, or you could extend the EIC to cover more people with the money lost by giving rich people that credit.

[flpoljunkie]

14. Yes,Kerry, Clark, Edwards say eliminate tax cut for income over $200K...

And use the money for health care, education, and other crying needs of this country.

[AP]

17. Edwards also says that if we take the burden off the middle class...

...they'll be able to pull us out of this crappy economy. He says the middle class is the engine of the economy, and they can't do their job when we're taxing the hell out of them, while the rich -- the hood ornament and leather interior -- gets all the attention from Mr Bush.

[Logansquare]

7. That would be the $100,000 and over joint filers

I'm not sure which report he cited for the percentage, but this table only shows figures like that for joint filers making over $100,000 per annum.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/TaxFacts/overview/tax_cuts_families.cfm

[papau]

8. "median versus average" will be buried by media as it hurts Bush

The media - once this "median versus average" is pointed out, will treat the Bush lie as equally valid to the Dean truth - because to do otherwise would be to "make news - not report it" - and it is just a political dispute - folks should "decide who they believe" because our US media endores "faith" votes rather than votes based on facts tainted by having been printed or broadcast, or God-forbid - discussed in print or on the air.

[Hep]

9. Brookings didn't ask me

My middle class tax cut scored me $8 a month! Thanks!

[ProfessorGAC]

13. Excuse Me, Dr. Brookings!

The very thing they accuse Dean of doing, this report does! Averages are just as misleading when Brookings uses them out of context as they are when Dean does.

This article does nothing to defuse Dean's statement (and i'm not a Dean supporter, just someone interested in honest reportage). In fact, if one were to actually look at the true "middle class" tax cuts, the number gets lower and lower, since Brookings uses a maleable definition of "middle class".

We have a household income well into 6 figures and we didn't get any $5k tax break. The problem with this intellectual dishonest rebuttal of Dean is that the "average" may very well include folks who make $750k per year. If they are included in that average, $22,500 goes a long way to push the "average" up to about 3 grand.

So, read this column with a substantial portion of salt handy.
The Professor

[killbotfactory]

15. The Boston globe is just doing the dirty work for the hometown boy

This is the second misleading Dean bashing article i've read from them in the past few days. I'm sure I'm missing some.

[flpoljunkie]

16. If you were a Kerry fan, and read the Boston Globe everyday, you would...

know that the Boston Globe has been very critical of John Kerry; they, not only do not cut him any slack, they seem to go out of their way to critique everything he says or does.

[killbotfactory]

18. Oh, so they do the dirty work for republicans, then...

Protecting the local guy is fine, i'd expect them to do it, but they don't even do that? sheesh.

[blm]

33. Some Bush WH appointees actually worked at the Globe.

Frightening.

Donald Segretti, the mentor of Atwater and Rove, was from Boston and so is Andy Card. They have had their moles at the Globe for over 30 years.

[mzmolly]

20. Did you get a flippin tax cut?

I know I didn't. I got a $400 tax 'advance' and my property taxes went up as much.

[Frodo]

23. Did Bush raise your property taxes?

So did your rate go up? Or the value of your home>?

[AP]

24. You really think that if your Federal Inc. Tax goes up, your property tax

will go down?

You really believe that?

The Fed gov't is shifting the tax burden entirely off the wealthy and on to the middle class the only ways they can: by cutting taxes on the wealthy WAY more than the cut them on the middle class, and by cutting every progrem which creates wealth for the middle class, while giving whatever money they do have to the already wealthy (eg, Haliburton and Bechtel).

State and local governments are doing the same thing through every tool they have available -- state income taxes and property taxes (they give breaks to corporations so that, when property tax goes up, it's individuals who pay for that increase).

How in the world does aiding and abetting a regressive Fed tax code mean that state and local taxes will become LESS regressive.

You have to fight the battle for progressivity everywhere you can, and by electing a president who cares about a progressive Federal tax code, you INCREASE the chance that you'll enlighten people who vote in state and local elections.

D.U.h.!!!!!!!

[Larkspur]

27. Yes, property taxes can go down, but citizens will have to fight for it

If the Federal aide to states and localities increases, then citizens can organized and demand a property tax decrease.

[Capn Sunshine]

30. I only believe what I see

My property taxes went up as the Federal funds shifted from the states to cover Tax cut I. Less money from the Fed for schools, municipalities, and roads leads to the defecits currently being run in 47 out of 50 states.

So it's already happened to me.

Cause and effect, AP

[Larkspur]

26. No, I didn't get a tax cut

Singles and childfree get screwed all the time by the tax code.

But my state income taxes are rising and so will my property taxes to pay for a new school, which I'll never use.

Why can't the child-free get a tax credit for not having kids who will burden the school system? If the childed get tax credits for having kids, then the child-free should get tax credits for not increasing the human overpopulation.

[Frodo]

28. Do you "pay no federal income tax"??

If you only have to pay for things you use then the rich won't have to pay many taxes at all. Should they get a cut if they sen their kids to private school? They demonstrably saved the county money it would HAVE to spend - you haven't. Should they be able to back out of Social Security if they know they will ever have a need for it?

The system should be based on "ability to pay". We constantly harp on "tax cuts for those who need it least". If you're single making 40k in GA you need a tax cut a heck of a lot less than the married guy with three kids making 80k in San Francisco. He's "poor" and you're "rich".

[flpoljunkie]

31. Everyone has advantage of lower tax rates and expanded brackets...

For married filing jointly, for example, new 10% rate expanded to cover first $14,000 of taxable income, up from $12,000.

The 15% rate has been expanded from $46,000 to $56,800 for married filing jointly.

The 25% rate has been expanded from $112,850 to $114,650 for married filing jointly.

Edited to add IRS link used for above info.

http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/article/0,,id=109877,00.html

[caledesi]

29. Exactly MM, and I think that is Dean's point. * is just shifting $ around

nt

[killbotfactory]

32. Bush and Democratic hopefulls play "pass the buck" with our tax dollars

Dean doesn't.