Left-Wing Protesters or Right-Wing Agents?

[maha]

A question posed by Barry Bozeman in an article in today's Open Source Politics.

http://www.ospolitics.org/usa/archives/2003/10/29/are_these_.php

Barry and others have photographs of masked protesters showing up at the recent protests to burn flags. Barry's question is, are these protesters, or are they paid agents for the VRWC sent to discredit the protesters.

Given the history of much of the anti-Vietnam War movement, which was sabitaged in similar ways by operatives of Nixon's re-election committee, I don't think this is a stupid question. I think it's something we have to watch out for.

[Rich Hunt]

1. yes, definitely

There was a fake "black bloc" in Genoa. In Chicago, a flag-burner showed up and no one recognized him - no anarchists or any other groups.

There were also white supremacists who showed up trying to pass themselves off as a Muslim group. The only problem was that their anti-Semitic signs gave them away - they included an URL to a white supremacist site.

[Wickerman]

9. Why are white supremacists always such idiots?

oh yeah, the question is self-answeing, huh?

[9215]

22. You are lost

You tried the same trivialization tactic at another topic where I mentioned similiar possibilities.

[proud patriot]

2. IMHO

I have never seen flag burning at any protests . Yet the pictures
pop-up. If I ever see a person burning a flag in my presence
I will excercise my right to dissent . I will yell
"who's paying you to deface this protest?" I will boo and hiss.

I will do it over and over again .

While I respect a person's Constitutional right to do this
That very person better respect my right to be disgusted
and to defend the honor of those Marching who feel the same
as I .

[On the Road]

3. It IS Hard to Tell the Difference Sometimes

I'm all for making a bold statement that gets headlines, but there are smart and stupid ways to do it. Burning the American flag is rarely the best way to make a statement.

I forget who proposed this, but if a group wants to protest US government actions, arrange for everyone to WASH the flag rather than burn it.

[The Magistrate]

11. Washing The Flag Is A Damned Good Idea, Sir

It could certainly use it.

"My Country, right or wrong: when right, to be kept right, when wrong, to be put right!"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[proud patriot]

13. Indeed I like it as well

Fine Idea :thumbsup:

[Brian Sweat]

14. Washing the flag is a great idea.

Instead of conveying a message of hatred, it says that you are ashamed of what has been done in the name of the flag.

[MSchreader]

20. Norman Thomas

I think he came up with that idea first -- to wash the flag, instead of burning it, as a sign of protest. There is a quote from him to that effect from the 1960s.

Martin

[BurtWorm]

4. Okay. You made your point. You disagree with radicals.

We get it. Can we please MOVE ON!

[rman]

23. not Maha's point, and it won't go away.

especially since more then a few people seem to agree with the point that is being made by ospolitics.

[Mike Niendorff]

5. There's an easy way to find out:

Pull off their masks, photograph their faces, and find out who they really are.


MDN

[pretzel4gore]

6. a famous case..

recounted in 'Rolling Stone' mag back in 70's concerning the AIM (American Indian Movement) in which a FBI agent named 'Durban'(?) or Durham(?) whatever told a story about a meeting in Minneapolis where the entire meeting consisted only of undercover FBI agents.....
Assume that the most obnoxious element at protests are agents of the police; they have nothing to fear.
there's never been a provable incident where real anti war protestors burnt flag......that's repulsive by any standard outside freeper/provacateur

[tom_paine]

7. Mostly Right-Wing Agents

The Busheviks do EVERYTHING Nixon did and a whole lot more. If Nixon's Creeps did it, you can bet Bushevik Freeps are doing it, too.

[KG]

8. i saw the flag burning in DC - yawn.

:boring:

young anarchist types have been burning flags since the '60s. why is this still an issue?

[MnFats]

10. Stranger things have happened...

...I remember anti-Vietnam War protests at the University of Minn. around '70-72 in which groups of five or six people nobody knew showed up and soon after a march or protest started they were shouting "Kill the fuckin' pigs" and throwing rocks.
after they ended, people saw them getting into unmarked squad cars and leaving with the (other) cops.....

[alphafemale]

12. Hmmm. Maybe worth check out the photos again. I know they had fake...

...protestors/distruptors who actually posed for a photo.

See if the flag burners might be from that group.

Wouldn't surprise me a bit.

[iverglas]

15. my northern experience

And my apologies to anyone who's heard the story. ;)

About 20 years ago I was an organizer of a rather major event in town, being in charge of "security" for the event and the demonstration against the parallel "official" event. Okay, we were the first ever counter-summit to a G7 summit. The event itself was endorsed by all sorts of trade unions, local and national politicians, anti-poverty groups, etc. I liaised with the RCMP about security concerns.

Our biggest concern was that we wanted the Communist Party of Canada (Marxist-Leninist), which had announced a demo of its own, kept away from our demo. Don't be fooled; they weren't a party, except in the sense of 6 people in living room, and they weren't likely communist, except in the sense of being rather dim. What they did have was the ability to shout stupid things louder than anyone else in the world for longer than anyone else in the world, and they were the bane of all demos about anything at the time.

One day, when we were winding up a meeting with RCMP Sgt. Larry and again referring to the good old CPC(ML), he leaned back, put his cowboy boot up on his desk, and said, in a perplexed voice, "Who are those people, anyway?"

I, of course, could not resist. Wide-eyed, I replied: "But, we always thought they were YOU." He looked rather genuinely taken aback.

I won't state any opinion about your flag burners -- i.e. whether I agree with the complaints, or whether I concur in the suspicions. I'd just say that someone doesn't have to be a provocateur to be unwelcome. And that the dispute about who's welcome and who isn't has been going on for decades, and isn't likely to be settled in our lifetimes.

.

[Scott Lee]

16. It's not unheard of

There as an art to this sort of thing, I think it's called being an Agent Provocateur. There are many shades of AP, among them:

Posing as a supporter at organizational meetings, only to disrupt, sidetrack or short circuit them.

Pose as a member of the other side who has a "change of heart", who then gets inside and reports back to his true friends (kind of like a double agent)

Show up incognito at rallies as the worst stereotype of the opposition (relevent to your example).


The US government has employed these tactics as well, on many occassions, not the least of which were COINTELPRO operations against anti-Vietnam war cells and organizations working for justice in the Americans like CISPES.

[durutti]

17. Some of Both

At least, in my experience.

[Vogon_Glory]

18. Alas, There Are Probably Both...

I suspect that some of the flag-burning and other anti-patriotic acts are the products of both infantile leftists and also right-wing agents-provacateur.

The problem with a lot of folk on the left is that they continue to fail to target their audience and that they're still stuck in the same ruts that their fathers and mothers have ben stuck in since the days of the SDS and the Weather Underground. These infantile leftists continue to burn flags and diss soldiers because their parents did it, because it's "traditional," and because they think it's "progressive," despite the fact that such tactics are counter-productive and the only people who benefit are Karl Rove, Marc Racicot, and George UU Bush.

These infantile leftists bleat the same old tired chants instead of thinking of something new. For Goshssakes, how about dusting off old IWW songs as well as borrowing from the musical Les Miserables and singing them?

I won't talk about right-wing agents-provacateur, except that they are clearly the ones to benefit by twisting the message and distorting how we progressives appear.

I suspect the best hope is for concerned progressives to get in the faces of these people and get verbal and to do some detective work as to who the flag-burning jerks really are.

[jonnyblitz]

19. not all of us are rabid nationalists who find this a major issue

so who cares one way or the other. Oh yeah, i forget, middle America will never vote Democrat because they will see this, associate it with the Democratic party and therefore vote Republican. How silly of me to forget this, my bad.

I find the people who want a flag burning amendment much more worthy of our concern.

[9215]

21. I mentioned this possibility at another

topic.

If you stop and think for a minute doesn't it just make good political sense for the Right-Wing to do this? They try to make the protests look extremist, irrational, French Revolutionesque.

Plus we have this very thing happening during the Vietnam Era as someone else mentioned.

[MI Cherie]

24. Paid Agents ...

Bush* & Cheney have both been to our city and I've seen the protesters. They do not hide behind black or white masks.