My take on liberals and Affirmative Action

[Hep]

I might be totally wrong about this, which is why I submit it for scrutiny.

I sometimes get the feeling when I talk about race with somewhat like minded individuals that we're afraid to see affirmative action for what it is. Affirmative action DOES involve giving preference because of race, and I am all for it.

I feel like some folks add all of these qualifiers to it that suggest it is about something else. Those who have been involved in the other thread have touched upon a lot of it. It IS about jobs and education and poverty, but those aren't the underlying point. The one thing that ties it al together is race, gender, and age.

AA came about because some people realized that due to the decades of systematic denial of opportunity- financial, educational, occupational, health care, the playing field had to be levelled manually. Like the steel company who made race a priority over seniority, resulting in a supreme court decision favoring the company. There is a cycle of discrimination that stems from this oppression that can only be stopped by breaking in and halting it.

I feel like if we tiptoe around the root of this issue, AA will always be suspended in this confusing whirlwind of spin.

[jiacinto]

I think it should also be based on economic status, not just race

nt

[ozone_man]

4. I agree,

Maybe when AA was first established, race alone was appropriate. As we move on, some of the old rules need to be tweaked. The economic status of people needs to be considered in a similar way. At least there has to be a weighting factor applied to AA to include econonomic background.

[meow2u3]

9. I agree--for this reason

Most members of racial and/or ethnic minorties happen to be poor, but most poor people are not minorities. AA based on economic status will not only benefit blacks, Hispanics, etc., but will also benefit poor whites whom also are stuck in a cycle of poverty out of which they can't escape without some "handicap system" which will enable them to compete fairly with their better-off counterparts.

Affirmative action based on economic status will effectively neutralize the Repuke tactic of divide-and-rule which plays on the racism of many whites in this nation, and will eventually expose the culture war as the scam it is.

[KG]

1. you aren't wrong.

and it's still needed today cause let's face it whitey still runs this country and racism is still rampant in this society.

[wryter2000]

2. Yes, but

I don't disagree. But I do find that people often overestimate just how much preference is given to minorities in AA programs. Usually it's quite modest, and white candidates aren't put at a real disadvantage.

[Karenina]

5. PLUS, poor whites ALWAYS retain

WHITE PRIVILEGE. Why is this an either/or, black/white (pun intended) issue with so many? My answer to my own inquiry is simple. The issue is being framed in such a way to keep natural allies at each others' throats. It's framed in a way to project a zero-sum game. Any policy which addresses POVERTY in the world's wealthiest nation is a good thing. We're talking potatoes and pomegranates here. AA is designed to address INSTITUTIONALIZED PREJUDICES against women and minorities. That means poor whites ALSO benefit from the inroads made.

Frankly I'm thrilled and delighted Sharpton is being a lightning rod on this issue. Perhaps it will lead to a REAL discussion of the "divide and conquer" tactics that have served the RW so well.

[ozone_man]

7. I think he's trying to make Dean the lightning rod,

while he plays Ben Franklin, or something like that. But, yes, it might spark some good debate.

[HornBuckler]

3. My Opinion

I Have A Bit Of A Problem With AA - I Believe We Should Be A Color Blind Society (Sorry For The Cliche) But If We Differentiate Upon Race, That In Itself Is Racism.

Granted - Races Of People Have Been Pooped Upon Throughout History (White Black Yellow And Red) And I Say - Let It Go....

There's A Problem With Letting Every Employer Hire Who They Feel Is Most Qualified For The Job (Because We Know There Is Still Racism Out There) If That Employer Is Not Racist And Feels The Same About All Races And They Are Forced To Hire Someone Not As Qualified, We Do A Diservice To Everyone. However, If That Person(s) Has Racial Tendencies, Than AA Does Its Job. Unfortunately, There Is No Way Of Tellin' Who Is Who. So Let's Get Rid Of It, And Smack The idiot Racist Around A Bit. Eventually, We Could All Feel Free.

[Cheswick2.0]

6. sorry but you are wrong

the idea is to force business and government to hire minorities and women. It has nothing to do with economics, it has to do with oprotunity. This is still a racist country.

[HornBuckler]

8. Racist Country

Yeah, There Is Still Racism Around, But The Entire Country is Not Racist. I Believe If We Hold Onto Ideals Like This We Continue To Promote Discrimination. One Has To Really Believe In Equality For This To Work. I Agree With You, We Are A Ways From That. But, Don't You See In Order To Be Free Of Racism, We Can't Hold Onto Any Form Of It - Even If AA Is Neccessary In Part At This Moment In History?


Or Let Me Rephrase And Ask You This : When Do We Determine AA Is No Longer Necessary?

[DrWeird]

14. When?

We end when there is a proportionate number of minorities in universities and well-paying jobs. Since blacks are just as qualified as whites for any given position, we should see a proportionate number, since we don't it is a racist society, and therefore we need AA to level the playing field.

[sandnsea]

10. It levels the playing field

My mom looked for work back in the 60's. She tried for several jobs and was literally told to go home and raise her children. That's how women, especially women with kids, were often treated. Minorities obviously had it worse.

No, it's not the 60's. But here's a glowing report of women making gains in the corporate world!

"The number of female chief executives also increased, to six, comprising 1.2 percent of the Fortune 500 CEO population, an increase from two women CEOs in 2000 and one in 1995."

Wohoo! I don't know what the figure is for minorities, but I bet it's not any better. And these 6 women wouldn't be where they're at without 30 years of Affirmative Action in colleges and the workplace.


Oops, here's the link:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/11/19/national/main529936.shtml

[KG]

12. wow! a whooping 6 women amongst 500!

well then, it's obvious the field has been leveled.

time to regulate AA to the dustbin of history! :grr:

[ikojo]

11. George W Bush is where he is because of an affirmative action

program for the rich children of rich parents...

He got into Andover because his daddy attended Andover
He got into Yale as a legacy (dad and granddad attended Yale)
Though a C student at Yale he got into Harvard Business School because of his family name...

His daddy set him up with a business at which he failed...

So, if those with more than enough income can benefit from affirmative action what about those who come from families with not enough income?

[quaker bill]

13. I hire people

My understanding of affirmative action is through recent training by legal counsel specializing in employment law.

I have been taught that affirmative action is taking affirmative steps to provide equal opportunity to members of any race or either gender. We are required to hire the most qualified candidate and race is not considered a qualification. Things we do affirmatively include assurance that job postings are given to minority colleges, hold career fairs on these campuses, etc. In other words we take affirmative steps to recruit applicants from these communities, however we consistently hire the most qualified candidate regardless of race or gender.

I agree with the notion that steps to promote a diverse student body are appropriate. I also believe that the two-tiered public education system for have / have not communities needs to end regardless of racial mix.

[wryter2000]

15. Thanks, Quaker Bill

A good view of what affirmative action really is. :yourock:

[FrenchieCat]

16. I agree.....

Diversity is not Class, it's culture...

My husband is black and comes from a middle class background and still gets passed by when hailing a taxi....

So until the taxi stops, we need AA.

Can't base AA on class.....because when person of color goes looking for an apartment, and doesn't get it......he/she are usually competing with people that can afford the apartment as well as they could have, i.e., class does not figure in most AA issues except for educational opportunities.........and education is only a part of AA.

[dofus]

17. Until we look around

and see 50 percent of CEOs are female, whatever the appropriate percent should be are African American, until taxis stop for all persons, until it never occurs to anyone that someone is in a job because of race/gender preference, THEN we won't need affirmative action any more. We still have a very long way to go.

We white people have no clue how much we benefit from being white.

[janekat]

18. Agree. Start opening your eyes and your ears people - it's still rampant

To say that racism is still not a force in this country is denial. Maybe I'm living in outer space - but I hear people make comments all of the time.

[Selwynn]

19. I agree with your post, and with reply #1

[The Backlash Cometh]

20. It's a remedy to an imbalance.

And that imbalance was created by discriminatory practices which bestowed preferential treatment to whites.