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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:06 PM
Original message
Why Sharpton attacked Dean today
Because he sees Jesse Jackson endorsing him. There has been a long time feud between Jackson and Sharpton on a variety of issues. With the endorsement of Jesse Jackson Jr., he sees the old man going to Dean too.

Remember the scandal involving Jackson and his "love child" two years ago. Many said that he was finished. But if Jackson endorses Dean and Dean wins and Jackson delivers the black vote to Dean (all of which are entirely possible), it marginalizes Sharpton.

Sharpton is running for President, not to be the Democratic nominee or to be President. But rather, to become the new leader of African American voters. He wants to do well enough among them to make demands on the Democrats in July at the convention. Thereby becoming the new leader of the African-American bloc.

If Jesse Jackson endorses Dean. And Dean wins the nomination with the support of African Americans. Sharpton's plans go to shit.

He can't attack Jesse Jackson. So he attacks Dean instead.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. Al Actually Attacked Them Both
Although JJJ much more mildly (he called JJJ a "so-called" leader of the black community, precisely because he endorsed Dean over Sharpton).

I don't really disagree with your analysis. That said, Al's criticism is still going to be an issue for Dean. As another person said in another thread, this has just fed a major attack ad to the Republicans ("Howard Dean Has an Anti-Black Agenda").

DTH
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I'm not sure why it will be an issue for him
He supports Affirmative Action. Sharpton acknowledged this. But he believes it should be based on economics rather than race. If you are a poor black person, it still benefits you. It just benefits all poor people.

I don't see how this hurts.

Dean should stand by his comments. It only hurts if he waffles.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. He's Already Waffled
In 1995, he said he did not support race-based affirmative action. Now, he says he does, in direct response to Al's comments.

Personally, I believe AA's critical component is the race-based component. Racism in this society is real, and needs to be addressed in a proactive manner.

DTH
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Upfront Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Ever Change Your mind?
You have if you have one.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Sure I Have
I take it you now disavow your past attacks on Clark for changing his mind, then?

Regardless, "waffling" wasn't my term. But Dean sure has changed his mind a lot, on many issues. Conveniently, all of these issue changes seem to have happened in connection with his entry into the Presidential race. Also conveniently, all of these issue changes seem to be toward positions more favored by the liberal base.

If he gets our nomination, I'll take him at his word. But until he does, he remains in the middle of my pack, exactly for reasons like these.

DTH
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liberalnurse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 08:09 PM
Original message
Looks like an another
pause for a opportunist here ...again....:wtf:
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Dean NEVER said that he didn't support "race based" AA, he said we should
Edited on Wed Oct-29-03 07:33 PM by mzmolly
expand AA to include other areas of discrimination.

Regarding the rest of your statement. Seems Clark has changed his mind about a few biggies, so I wouldn't deal the 'waffle' card if I were you.

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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Are You Still Spinning This Nonsense?
Exactly what part of "NOT on race, but on class" do you not understand?

DTH
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. I'm dizzy
from all the spin:).
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #14
36. Yes, right along with Jesse Jackson Jr. and Donna Brazile....
Edited on Wed Oct-29-03 07:56 PM by mzmolly
Al Sharpton said ~"Howard Dean's opposition to affirmative action, his current support for the death penalty and historic support of the NRA's agenda amounts to an anti-black agenda that will not sell in communities of color in this country... Any so-called African American leader that would endorse Dean despite his anti-black record is mortgaging the future of our struggle for civil rights and social justice."

What part of Sharptons lie don't you get?

Here is the statement by Jesse Jackson Jr.

"I also don't understand Rev. Sharpton's attempt to introduce 'race' into the campaign by using such rhetoric as 'anti-black' with respect to Gov. Dean. I challenge all of the other candidates to urge Rev. Sharpton to resist using such inflammatory rhetoric... Clearly, Gov. Dean is not anti-black and it is ridiculous for Rev. Sharpton to compare him to President George Bush in that regard. When it comes to addressing issues that directly affect African Americans, and indirectly affects all Americans, Gov. Dean clearly has good record. Up until this point -- until I indicated my intention to endorse Gov. Dean - the Democratic campaign has been free of such racial rhetoric. I would recommend that it remain so. Such rhetoric will not contribute to defeating George W. Bush in 2004. Indeed, it will insure his re-election."


Statement of Congressman Major R. Owens

"To achieve our common ground goal of a Democrat in the White House, Howard Dean is the only candidate with a clear enough vision combined with toughness and independence. With respect to African American concerns, Dean starts with an evolving slate. The "doors of his church" are wide open to a broad spectrum of African American leadership. After his election, Howard Dean can be expected to bring into his circle of new national leadership more Black leaders than any of the other candidates. He has this flexibility because he doesn't owe the establishment any dues."

"And no one should go forth with the mistaken assumption that the vital issue of war and peace is not important to the African American constituency. When the Congressional Black Caucus members overwhelmingly voted against the waste of 87 billion dollars in Iraq, they were expressing the will of the people in our neighborhoods who insist that our needs be met here at home first. Our people, our rank and file is already with Howard Dean. Black leaders must run to catch up."


And, this from Dean himself.

Dean called himself a ``vigorous supporter'' of affirmative action and explained the 1995 remark to reporters while in Las Vegas for two private fund-raisers.

``That's about help for people who don't have any money, and I think we should do that. But I also think affirmative action has to be about race...,'' Dean said."

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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Dean's Supporters Expressed Their Opinions About Dean
Edited on Wed Oct-29-03 07:57 PM by DoveTurnedHawk
And you know what? Good on them. They're defending Dean well.

Their opinions do not change the irrefutable FACT of Dean's own words in 1995, however. Based on the video aired by CNN today, it's quite clear Dean was OPPOSED to race-based affirmative action in 1995, despite your best, desperate attempts to spin it otherwise (just like Dean, whose recent comments about his 1995 position constitute naked spin).

If he changed his mind on this, then great! I'm glad he came around to the correct position. I wish he'd just admit it in a forthright manner.

DTH
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #38
46. There's No spin. Dean as usual was trying to
be More Fair and bring in all the poor People ..not just the Blacks.

There's no reason for this to be racial.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. How Nice of You and Dean to Support Stripping Entitlements
from people of color.

:eyes:

The Democratic Party needs to support affirmative action as it is. Dean has claimed that he does, now. But it's clear he didn't back in 1995.

DTH
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. I'm sure Dean didn't want to"strip entitlements"
from African Americans! And, neither, do I! So you can just take your spin against Dean and go spin for clark.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. You're Wrong, See Post #49
It is crystal clear Dean did not support race-based AA in 1995. Sorry you refuse to see it.

DTH
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #38
66. You know there's a lot of stuff Clark said a long time ago...
...that people say he no longer believes in.
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FubarFly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
37. Why not post the rest of the statement, plus the context in which he
said it. Who was he answering, why was he asked, and did any of his other remarks in that particular interview provide additional context for his comment?

I won't be sure if Dean changed his mind, waffled, evolved, flip-flopped, or remained consistant on his AA position from 1995 and now until I have more information then one out of context line to go on.

It would be foolish to try and judge Dean's remarks otherwise. Wouldn't you agree?

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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Recently Saw the CNN Footage of This
The context is accurate. Dean did not support race-based AA in 1995.

I'm sure the transcript will be up on CNN in the not-too-distant future, if you don't believe me.

DTH
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FubarFly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #39
43. Thanks, I didn't see the footage.
Do you know where was the quote taken from? Did they just replay just that quote, or were there more remarks?

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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. Here It Is
From MSNBC: Howard Dean was asked in an interview by CNN's Jean Meserve about his stance on affirmative action. His response: "You know, I think we ought to look at affirmative action programs based not on race but on class, and opportunity to participate." Meserve responded that Dean "sounded like Newt Gingrich." Dean's response: "...I don't think it ought to be done by race."

DTH
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. Wow that's one short interview.
Must be some kind of record.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. That's About All They Covered on CNN and MSNBC
But the context and plain meaning of the words are clear. For anyone who knows how to read, anyway.

DTH
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FubarFly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #49
61. Thanks again.
This is what i could find so far from the CNN site. From crossfire:

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0310/29/cf.00.html

George W. Bush is still bashed most by the nine Democrats running for president. But the second most likely target is one of their own, former Vermont Governor Howard Dean. The Reverend Al Sharpton accuses Dean of having an anti-black agenda based on what Dean said about eight years ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. HOWARD DEAN (D), VERMONT: I think we ought to look at affirmative action programs based not on race, but on class and opportunity to participate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: That's anti-black?

Sharpton also complains Dean supports gun rights and the death penalty. Heaven forbid. Congressman Dick Gephardt joined in to claim Dean is Bush-like on Medicare. Their real problem with Dr. Dean, though, is that he is the front-runner for the nomination.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: I think that's a wise point. I think you're right, that any time you're the front-runner, people are going to shoot at you. The question will be now, how does Governor Dean handle it? Does he remain calm? Does he defend his record? Or does he get all angry and attack them or mislead people? This will be an interesting test to see how he performs as a front-runner. He's been great as an underdog, but now he's the front-runner.

---

He does seem to have been talking about expanding the criteria for AA from race to class, but the context is still incomplete. I still would like to see the part of the interview that preceeded Dean's statement, as well as the rest of Dean's partial response to the Gingrich charge. I'm also going to research the history of Dean's AA comments to see how they've changed over the years.

Thanks again for the info.
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Vis Numar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #39
58. Great
"Dean did not support race-based AA in 1995."

Good for Dean. Race is a fallacy spread by ignorant people. Who still believes in Race? Do you? What does it mean?

Class is much more relevant, anyway, or color, but speaking in terms of Race is practically racism in my book.

God, I can't wait until Dean is President, A New Way of Thinking!

ABOUT TIME.
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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #58
62. I agree
From what I can tell, I really think Dean wants to bring people together in a very unique way.
This position on affirmative action, and his comments regarding the southern guys with confederate flags on their trucks are very telling. He said that white people and black people in the southern states are ALL in need of health insurance. They should be voting together -for Democrats, because we have the interests of all people who don't have these things in mind.
Framing it this way helps break down the resentments that have been the result of the Republican southern strategy.
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Closer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
33. The Clarkettes desparately WANT
it to be an issue for Dean.


They're jumping on this like flies on crap. It's hilarious.

Suddenly, Sharpton is their democratic savior behind Clark now, and everything he says MUST be taken seriously or else serious repercussions will follow. LOL


How's your man doin Clarkettes? Huh?

He still the frontrunner?

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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. According to Today's Quinnipiac Poll, Yes
And I have liked Sharpton's contribution to this race since the start. So did most of DU, until yesterday. I'm shocked, just shocked I tell you, to see how people turn on him so viciously after he raises a relevant point of interest to all people of color.

DTH
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #34
67. Relevant?
You even said yourself that his policies now are different than then!

So he supports race-based affirmative action...OK...so what part of what he said in 1995 is relevant now? Or is this just race-baiting too?
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Keep fishing
Yeah right, the Repugs are gonna take Sharpton's word to paint a negative picture, over Jackson,Jr's endorsement, a respected progressive leader in the Afro-American community.

Everyone can see it is sour grapes....sort of like resentful Clark corps who spend all day lying, bashing, exagerating and attacking Dean.

As if the repugs couldn't rip Clark to shreds with Pristina alone. Foreign policy, ha!
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pasadenaboy Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. If Al wants to start criticizing people
He better be ready to talk about Tawana.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. There you go! One thing about not "apologizing"
about something is you are open to critisism and I think it takes a very Big Person to apologize.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. Republicans would never tout the 'anti black' agenda regarding Dean
because it would draw their racist voters away.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Psst! Have You Ever Heard of Targeted Ads? (eom)
DTH
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Well then I guess they could run the "Clark voted for Reagan ads as well"
Pssst. Or the quotes where Clark touts Bush as a great leader. Or...??
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. They're Already Pushing That Line Through Their RW Media Shills
And they're doing it in an effort to split the Dem base and make sure Clark, their biggest fear, does not win the Dem primary. It's classic Riordan/Simon all over again.

It's too bad that so many gullible leftists are apparently buying into the RW efforts to choose our nominee for us.

DTH
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #27
41. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
:eyes:
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. You Should Pay Closer Attention
Edited on Wed Oct-29-03 08:01 PM by DoveTurnedHawk
Novak, Drudge, Will, Kristol, and a host of others have been beating this drum since the start. Your eye-roll doesn't change the facts.

DTH
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. I have paid attention-to Clark...
and I see no reason that the Republicans should 'fear' him.

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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. The Reasons Are Obvious
Clark being a general blunts Bush's greatest perceived strength as a wartime pResident. Clark is more electable, as he's from the South, has a military background, and is perceived as moderate (even though he's more liberal than Dean). In contrast, Dean can be painted as a Park Avenue, typical Northeastern liberal (even though he's more conservative than Clark), from a state that elects Socialists, who avoided service in Vietnam by bringing in X-rays from his personal doctor and then promptly went skiing and worked construction.

DTH
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
2. I like your analysis.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
4. Makes sense to me but then I'm a political
Novice! But I do know about the "feud" between Jesse Sr. and Sharpton. I don't think the "love child" should have "finished" Jesse Sr., either. I'm sure the "religious rite" would have liked that,though.

I'm stunningly happy and grateful for the endorsements from Jesse Jr and Major Owens and from all the Black leaders whom I so admire! :D
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jaysunb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. In the end
90% of all black voters will vote for whomever the democrats nominate. The key is the indentification and inclusion of the large number of AA voters between the age of 18 and 40 who do not participate. The endorsement of Gov Dean by JJJ is the first step in bringing this group on board.
It's clear from reading many post here, that there are lots of people who "think" they can forcast what will happen in the AA community, but I can tell you as an AA and a leader in the Dean Campaign here in So Cal, the message of Gov. Dean fits perfectly with the thinking and politics of the aforementioned demographic. The older opinion makers in the AA community will be brought along by the younger people like JJJ. Rev Sharpton will have little effect on that outcome.

As for adding ammo for Rove, he isn't even thinking about black votes.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Rove Has a History of Seeking to Suppress Black Turnout
I don't have much quarrel with the rest of your post, J. My point is to point out the obvious, namely that Sharpton criticizing Dean can hardly be considered to be a good thing, especially if Sharpton is going to continue beating this drum on CNN as he did today, and in the upcoming debates. This is what I mean by it being an issue for him.

DTH
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jaysunb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
63. Hey D.
You are on target as to the Rovian tacticts of surpressing the AA vote. That is why it's important to promote the inclusion in the process of the demographic I mentioned. They don't buy into the bullshit from anyone including preachers and other former opinion makers.
My professional adult children deeply resent the stigma of affirmative action and talk of entitlements in the same breath when discussing AA issues. As my daughters likes to say (and I'm sure you are all too well aware) "they did not lower the requirements when she took the bar." This crucial group has the same concerns as all others, that is, decent wages, the environment,educational opportunities etc.. These political saavy young people are not appreciative of Sharpton or any other tired windbag pretending to speak for an entire group.

I personally like Al, and I think he speaks out for a large group of voiceless people, but his attacks on Dean or any other candidate other than Bush are counterproductive and uncalled for. BTW, that goes for all the others too. The election rests upon the addition of new and occasional voters. Trying to lump them in some disadvantaged or needy group is plain silly.

Dr. Dean has it quite right, the problems of a thirty something AA is the same as a thirty something other. The problem must be collectively addressed.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
52. Thank you for being "a leader in the Dean
Campaign in So Cal"!

And this is why it excites me so much to see endorsements from JJJ and Major Owens...because I think the establishment Dems(mcauliffe are you reading?) abandoned the African American Community in the 2002 elections after the AA's came through for them in the 2000 selection.

I think this will re-invigorate the AA community to vote Dem!

I was so upset that none of the Senators would go with the Black Caucus against bush in 2000.

Just chickenshit stuff like. :-(
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preocupied Donating Member (90 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
68. "90% of all black voters will vote for whomever the democrats nominate"
Continue taking the black vote for granted.....

When the Repukes runs with Condi as a VP, should be interesting to see if you feel the same way. They would not get the majority but I am sure a good 10% to 30% could vote Republican as all black people need role models other than sports heroes and music entertainers who are prominent in society. As a black man, I sometimes feel the Democratic party only talks the talk and does not walk the walk with the exception of Clinton!
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jaysunb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. FYI
Edited on Thu Oct-30-03 12:19 AM by jaysunb
For over two years I have warned the posters on this board that they should stop taking the Black vote for granted, and I reiterate that point to you. But Black people rarely if ever vote against their own interest. They simply don't vote when confronted by bad choices.

Dr Dean renews hope within the AA community, as my previous post stated. "Business as usual", won't play well with the AA's that will make the difference in the upcoming election. The 50k tossed votes in Florida is proof of the power, and it will be unleashed in similar porportions in 2004. It will happen because a person representing Democratic ideals will be running, and not the same old tired Washington crowd, promising all and delivering nothing.......

And this Black man would suggest that Clinton is not the only White American that is capable of "doing the right thing by all Americans".
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
6. This is the kind of destructive crap that Sharpton pulls
that keeps him from rising above his baggage.
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. Yes, I agree. destructive crap, which breeds more...
but that doesn't stop the Clark Crowd from jumping on an 8 year old fragment of a sentence taken out of context and then running with it all day long. What is this, the 10th thread today about this?

Oh look, Dean said something 8 years ago and then CHANGED HIS MIND!

Kinda like being a Republican one day and then a Democratic Candidate the next?

waffle house, next exit...
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. LOL! That's So Funny.
Clark voted Republican over a decade ago. He's been registered Independent probably forever.

Regardless, if you want to play "more liberal than thou," Clark is more liberal than Dean on at least a few issues, and I can't think of one issue where Dean is more liberal than Clark.

DTH
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. I'm sorry, are you babbling towards me?
I don't see anything in my message comparing the relative "liberalness" of the two.

Over a Decade ago? Vs. 8 years ago?

I see, just another youthful indiscretion. Hmm, that sounds vaguely familiar, now what party used that excuse...
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. The Only Babble Is Your Own
The only reason we know about Clark's voting record is because he was honest enough to tell us. Lots of Americans have voted for both Republicans and Democrats in the past; it's hardly disqualifying.

Dean was busted on a public comment that he made, and then he desperately sought to spin that comment, rather than just admitting that he was wrong before, and that he's right now. That's not straight talk. That's political spin.

DTH
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. A politician spinning?
The horror...
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. I'm Glad You Admit It
Dean prides himself on being a straight talker, and not your typical politician. So congratulations! I consider your admission that Dean is, in fact, just a typical politician to be a significant step in your political development.

:evilgrin:

DTH
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Thanks for the condescension... I am swayed...
I will now vote for Clark. You've changed my views. I am saved.

I will change my Login to DeanToClark.

I will now add anti-Dean Quotes to my sig instead of being positive about my Candidate since I can find nothing good to say about him.

I will now jump on every tiny shred of evidence to Bash Dean and jump into every single thread that has Dean in the title.

I will salute my 8x12 glossy of Clark every morning.

I will worship his 4 stars and uniform because after all, he's the only one who can oppose the Bush Military Experience Juggernaut(tm).

I will refer to General Clark as "My Friend Wesley" in all conversations, because as a long-time Democratic Politician, he's my hero.

I will, well, no, I guess I won't...

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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. "Anti-Dean Quotes"
I love how you consider comments praising Clark to be "anti-Dean." It's rather telling.

As for the condescension, it was a joke, lighten up.

DTH
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Character Assassin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. Almost. Sharpton IS baggage, and thusly will never go anywhere
futher than he already has.
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janekat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
23. Isn't Sharpton is now more popular than Jackson in the black community?
Anybody know? Thought I had heard that Jesse had lost a lot of his pull - but I'm not sure...
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. I know that Sharpton has an extremely high negative rating among Democrats
Edited on Wed Oct-29-03 07:45 PM by w4rma
from polls I've seen on how he is doing in this primary.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. Jesse Jackson Jr
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jsw_81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
29. Sharpton needs to shut the hell up
He may be good at telling jokes from time to time, but when he attacks electable candidates and spouts his fringe left-wing bullshit he just drives more and more voters to Bush.

Sharpton has had his fun, but it's time for him to leave the stage. And nobody better accuse me of being racist for saying so, because I could care less about his skin color. I'd say the same thing about Kooknich.
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janekat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #29
55. Let's not let this become ANOTHER split in the party - God knows
we have enough of them.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #29
57. The fringe
> ...but when he attacks electable candidates and spouts his fringe
> left-wing bullshit he just drives more and more voters to Bush.

You must not live in Seattle:)?
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jsw_81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. No, I don't
Edited on Wed Oct-29-03 08:43 PM by jsw_81
I live in the Seattle suburbs where our elections are actually decided. And trust me, the "soccer moms" and "Nascar dads" out here aren't going to vote Democratic when they see the likes of Sharpton and Kucinich in our debates. They'll either stay home or vote for Bush, with the latter being much more likely.
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 07:48 PM
Response to Original message
30. Why? Same reason every else does.
Because he's the frontrunner at this point. The timing might have something to do with Sharpton's latest volley, I'll admit.

I'm still in soak-it-all-up / wait-and-see mode right now. I am, however, finding all the attacks distasteful. What the hell; that's politics, I guess.
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imax2268 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #30
45. BINGO...
Dean is the front runner and..."I think"...that Sharpton is jumping on the bash Dean bandwagon because of that...trying to get more people on his side...

Nothing against Sharpton...I have to give him credit for staying in like he has...but I don't think he will make it through the primaries...!
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candy331 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #30
47. Something I don't quite get
Edited on Wed Oct-29-03 08:13 PM by candy331
Do you think Afro Americans are led through the nose by someone who is supposed to be their leader. I think it is racist to keep calling someone a whole race's leader as if they are too mindless to think for themselves. The other candidates are getting endorsements are they said to be the leader of white voters? I can assure you Afro Americans look on the issues and make their own decisions even if whites refuse to believe it. There are sheeple in all races.
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #47
59. Clark is getting desperate
He was supposed to be this gorilla. Turned out to be a cute little mouse instead.

Hey Clarkies. Why not attack Bush instead of Dean. Your guy is losing his only chance to be VP.

As far as the Clark does better against Bush bullshit. First of all, i've always hated those type of arguments. Especially one year before an election. But most importantly, Bush's numbers on handling foreign policy are in the toilet. The newest Quinnipiac poll shows only 40% of Americans supporting Bush's handling of Iraq. 40%!!!! You want people to nominate someone they don't believe in to counter someone with a 40% rating? Who the hell has ever heard of that?

That's the reason that "my candidate will do better" argument is so stupid and in the end will do in Clark. Because when polls come back and he doesn't do better then there's no other reason to vote for him.

By the way, that same Quinnipiac poll showed Clark losing to Bush by 5%. And Dean by 6%. That's hardly anything to go around bragging about. 1% difference. Big wow. And you want to nominate this guy because he has foriegn policy "experience." Because otherwise we won't beat an incumbant with a 40% favorability rating on foreign policy.

The Clark argument is falling apart faster than his campaign.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
64. Sharpton, lawyers guilty of defamation in Brawley case
Former FBI informant and current Democratic Presidential aspirant Al Sharpton is not viewed kindly by many socialists. He is seen by many as another charlatan that profits at the expense of his own people.

New York lawsuit winds down
Sharpton, lawyers guilty of defamation in Brawley case
By David Walsh
25 July 1998


In Brawley's case, most shamefully, her allegations were promoted not only by charlatans like Sharpton, but by organizations claiming to be left-wing and "socialist." The only result of such "left" support is to drive backward layers of the population into the arms of the right wing, encourage racial polarization and make it more difficult for genuine victims to win support in the future.

Those who argue that the truth or falsehood of Brawley's claims is irrelevant, considering the legacy of slavery and oppression of blacks in the US, play a particularly pernicious role. Lying has never advanced any progressive social cause.

There is a connection between the lying, defamatory character of the Brawley campaign and the role of racialism. Those, like Maddox, Mason and Sharpton, who preach racial animosity and strive for privileges for their particular color or nationality must lie in their presentation of social life. Society is not a collection of warring ethnic tribes; it is fundamentally divided along class lines, between the elite handful who control economic life and the vast majority of working people. Racialists make things up because their conceptions do not correspond to reality.

Brawley elicited sympathy not only from among nationalists at the time of her alleged attack, but no doubt as well from among black people and others outraged over the nature of the crime. If there is something to be learned here, it is the real danger of reacting to such a situation without weighing the facts and making a reasoned analysis. Such an analysis implies having a perspective on society and an understanding of its essential driving forces. Figures like Mason, Maddox and Sharpton, and their counterparts of every color and background, are dangerous individuals. They play on confusion, ignorance and prejudice to advance their own reactionary political aims. The lesson is: beware of demagogues!

http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/july1998/braw-j25.shtml

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birdman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-29-03 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
65. I agree with your analysis
This isn't about Deans policies but Sharptons power.

It probably helps Dean in the long run like Sister Souljah
helped Clinton. Sharpton is enomously unpopular in Middle
America even among many liberals. Dean probably couldn't buy this
kind of publicity.

Sharpton probably had every intention of making demands of the
party at the convention and he loses leverage if he can't claim to
be taking a lot of black voters with him.

I've said from the start that Sharpton is not a friend of
the Democratic Party. I think this incident shows that that
is true.

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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #65
70. I agree birdman
That's why I said he shouldn't waffle. It would only empower Sharpton and reenforce Dean as a waffler.
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