Hear the DLC's Now-Desperate Mantra: "Stop Howard Dean At Any Cost!"

[David Zephyr]

The DLC is on the verge of irrelevancy with the ascendancy of Howard Dean---and they know it.

The corporate whores that run the DLC, Al From and Bruce Reed, are keenly aware that Dean’s campaign is now on the very verge of solidifying its lead against all other candidates and thereby wrapping up the entire question of who will be the 2004 Party Presidential Nominee.

Worse yet for the DLC, since Dean has been able to raise his tens of millions of dollars without corporate whoring and dependence on the DLC, and because both From and Reed have attacked Dean’s candidacy from the very beginning, they understand correctly that their days as peddlers of influence within the Democratic Party may soon be numbered. Hence, the loud death-rattle from the DLC, an organization more vile than the Republican Party itself.

More vile? Yes, more vile because it is insidious and encourages the likes of Zell Miller, Tom Daschle and Joe Lieberman who between the three of them have collectively supported the Patriot Act, undermined a woman’s right to choose, championed so-called “faith based initiatives”, protected gun manufacturers from lawsuits, cheer-leaded for the War in Iraq which was based on lies, and even endorsed George W. Bush for President in 2004. With friends like the DLC, who needs enemies like the GOP?

Beware when the DLC speaks of moving the Democratic Party to what they have determined to be the “center” for what they are truly after is their own self-perpetuation as influence peddlers in Washington through the means of directing monies from corporate crooks to Democratic lawmakers thereby compromising them and staining them. Far worse than the tattoos of gang members, these Democrats become marked as “purchasable” to polluters, religious fanatics and the crooked defense contractors.

Howard Dean has proven that he doesn’t need them. He has taken the lead in all three of the first contests for the 2004 nomination being tied with Gephardt in Iowa, having a 20 point lead in New Hampshire and being tied with Edwards in South Carolina. Dean also is ahead in California polling and overtaking Lieberman in recent New York polls. So the long knives are being drawn. The DLC must stop Dean now at any cost or else soon they will be out of business and will have to close down their whore house of pimping Democrats to some of the despicable corporations on earth.

Here are the very words of the great corporate whore, Al From of the DLC himself: “the great myth of the current cycle is the misguided notion that the hopes and dreams of activists represent the heart and soul of the Democratic Party." If you agree with that statement then support the DLC. If you disagree with that statement, join us for the coming battle for the very heart and soul of the Democratic Party.

[blm]

1. Didn't Dean help move the Dem party to the right throughout the 90s?

I think I'll stick with trusting those who stuck to progressive and liberal values throughout their careers, and helped PREVENT the Dem party from complete takeover by the Libertarian leaning centrists. I don't believe Dean's 10 month old conversion to populism. That may be fine for some of you, but, not for me.

[Hep]

6. heh

I think I'll stick with trusting those who stuck to progressive and liberal values throughout their careers, and helped PREVENT the Dem party from complete takeover by the Libertarian leaning centrists.

Yeah, well, tell them they've done a terrific job of protecting our values. I've never felt so accepted in society as a liberal.

I don't believe Dean's 10 month old conversion to populism. That may be fine for some of you, but, not for me.

I don't think you believe that. I don't for a minute think that your opinion is that its fine for us to believe Dean's yadda yadda yadda. It pisses you off, or you wouldn't come here day after day spending more time on Dean than your own candidate.

[blm]

10. There are so many here that post

about Dean with inaccurate information, what are those of us who support others to do? Just go away and let the inaccuracies fester and become legends? Not going to happen.

[Hep]

18. Well

try discrediting them. You've not done that yet. I see a lot of replies that lie about Dean, but I have yet to see a compelling, well supported claim against him.

I have a feeling I'll be waiting a long time.

[blm]

38. Because your beliefs are predetermined.

.

[Hep]

57. As usual, the reply is an attack

And absolutely nothing substantial. Normally I would alert this kind of post, but it's just far too telling. It serves a greater purpose if it stays.

[TLM]

36. YOu're right about that....

"There are so many here that post about Dean with inaccurate information..."


Yeah they are called Clark and Kerry supporters.

BLM do I need to get somebody with search ability to look up your posts where you edited and lied about a Dean quote, then when called on it lied and said the quote was scrubbed from Dean's site?

Someone who almost daily pushes the lie that the Biden Lugar bill was the exact same thing as the IWR Kerry voted for, should watch out for lightening bolts when accusing others of posting inaccurate information.

[Tyler Durden]

40. Thank you for your dismissiveness.

You too are doing it wrong.

There is nothing in your comment that makes me want to join you. You may even be right, but when you accuse in snarky sarcasm, you sound like a Fundy, telling me that I don't believe in Jesus, so I'm damed to Hell.

Try again.

[Hep]

59. Try again?

You want us to try to convert you to Dean? Is there something amiss in the CLark camp?

[sangh0]

66. He said

"There is nothing in your comment that makes me want to join you"

He said nothing about converting to Dean

[TLM]

67. I've pretty much given up on Clark folks...

I stopped being nice mainly because I find that support for Clark is rarely and issue of logic or reason, but of being memorized by the shiny stars and falling for the Rove lie that we need more militarism and more war mongering to win in 04.

If any other dem did or said a fraction of what Clark has done and said, he'd be run out of the party on a rail.


Now if you are different and you really honest want to know why I support Dean, why I think he's the best guy, why I think Clark is a lying douchebag... I'll be happy to share those opinions with you.

[Tyler Durden]

76. Keep it up.

You seem not to be getting the message EITHER.

When you use tactics better spent on the ENEMY (Bush) on your potential FRIENDS, then all you do is create skeptics.

You don't make me want to hear your reasoning, when you describe a candidate I CURRENTLY favor (stress CURRENTLY) as a "lying douchebag."

I can be convinced, but NEVER by diatribe. Won't you feel silly if the people you COULD have convinced you instead alienate and their candidate beats yours where you could have won?

Give that some thought, and try again. POLITELY.

[boxster]

82. Calling another candidate a "douchebag" - now, that's going to sway a lot

of people!

Geez. Do you really expect us to take you seriously when you say crap like that?

The sad thing is that I really like Dean, but it's supporters like you that give him a bad name.

[Eloriel]

77. Where is your outrage over blm's "snarky sarcasm"

I must've missed that.

Eloriel

[Tyler Durden]

79. I'm against ALL divisiveness...

And you know that. Straw man.

Why don't you practice cohesiveness? I'm not married to Wesley Clark. Convince me, without being snide.

Notice I left off any sarcastic endings like "IF YOU CAN." That was on purpose, by the way.

[Tyler Durden]

80. Just reviewed blm's posts.

A little on the pissed off side, but not by definition snarky (being nastily cute) or sarcastic.

As I am trying very hard ALWAYS not to be myself. Call it "turning over a new leaf."

on edit: as in my post #40. That was snarky. I appologise for it.

[blm]

92. I wasn't being sarcastic. I mean what I said.

No sarcasm needed.

[blm]

42. You will NEVER find where I said that

that Biden-Lugar was the EXACT same thing as the IWR because I never said that. I have always said that they are not far off, or similar, but NEVER said they were the EXACT same. YOU are the only person who ever posts that using those words. I think you change what I said deliberately because that is the only way you can get away from the fact that Dean's support of the Biden-Lugar version of the IWR shows he was not antiwar from the start like many Dean supporters believe.

[CWebster]

51. Biden-Lugar

was the same position as the French. You remember them, that vilified treasonous beast in old Europe that refused to sign on the dotted line for the bunnypants brigade?

The French wouldn't sign because the case to go to war wasn't made. Dean said Bush never made the case. Kerry stated for the record what he would prefer Bush to do, but he signed on anyway knowing that Bush wasn't bound, knowing that Bush was lying, knowing what Bush intentions were and knowing that Bush had not made a case.

But you never hear it, you just constantly revert to form as if you have some iron-clad case.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blm]

70. No, antiwar is what the MEDIA labeled Dean and many of his supporters

believe he was completely against this war to this day. Even Tweety repeats the mantra that Dean was solidly antiwar.

I merely point out the fact that Dean was never antiwar and never a liberal. That is the truth.

[JaneQPublic]

16. Her own candidate is DLC

John Kerry is a member of the DLC, has adopted Third Way principles of the Democratic Leadership Council, and is a member of the Senate New Democrat Coalition:

http://www.issues2000.org/2004/John_Kerry_Principles_+_Values.htm

[blm]

35. Yes, Kerry is one of those who stays on the left and keeps the others

from pulling the party too far to the right the last ten years. Thankfully he was there to pull back from the centrists.

DEAN is one of those who was doing the pulling TO the right. Why deny his entire career as a centrist? He usually doesn't.

[TLM]

41. LOL! Kerry is DLC, and since when is voting for half of Bush crap

pulling to the left?

Dean has pulled the entire pack of candidates to the left and got them to stop kissing bush's ass like they have been for the last 3 years and start at least trying to kick it, for a change.


Notice that the Kerry DLC boosters always point to the record beyond the last 3 eyars... because there is no defense for how Kerry has voted for the last 3 years.


Tell us BLM, where is Kerry's quote attacking the DLC for their comments bashing activist dems as not being real dems? Please cite the quote where Kerry said they were way out of line to attack the left end of the party for being against the war Kerry supported?

[blm]

49. Kerry's record is closest to Wellstone's of ANY candidate.

You want to deny that truth, go ahead. You don't get that record after 18 years of voting with the centrists.

Does Dean WANT you to get people to believe that Kerry is a centrist while Dean is good liberal? Somehow, I doubt that is what Dean wants at this point in his campaign.

[TLM]

60. Yeah... if you ignore the last 3 years....

And Wellstone also voted for the patriot act...


You keep trying to hide the last 3 years of Kerry being a Bush lackey by pointing to the years before he sold out.

That's like if I turned 18 then spent three years killing and stealing, and then at age 21 tried to claim that I'm no criminal because I have an 18 year long record of obeying the law.

I don't give a shit what Kerry's record was before he decided to sell out to Bush... Kerry is not running 5 years ago or 10 years ago, Kerry is running today on his record as it stands TODAY.

And today Kerry's record is one of voting for no child left behind, the patriot act, the IWR, 350 billion of Bush's 2nd tax cut, and supporting the DLC as they say liberal activists who were against the war Kerry supported are not real democrats... and Kerry telling dems to just "get over it" with regard to the 2000 election.

Kerry is not a progressive, nor a liberal, he is a career minded opportunist and what Dean represents is a threat to the whole power elite foundation upon which Kerry's career has been built.


Oh... and I'm still waiting for that Kerry quote. When can I expect to see it?

"Tell us BLM, where is Kerry's quote attacking the DLC for their comments bashing activist dems as not being real dems? Please cite the quote where Kerry said they were way out of line to attack the left end of the party for being against the war Kerry supported?"

[blm]

74. Why should he defend Dean? Dean was calling Kerry "Bushlite"

while he was in recovery from cancer surgery and not even on the campaign trail. What on earth does John Kerry owe Dean?

And Kerry's record on the last 3 years is still pretty damn good no matter what you claim.

Just because many of YOU believe Dean's 10 month old conversion to populism is the real deal, doesn't mean everyone does.

[janekat]

63. The way congressmen vote - they all know when it's a losing cause

and they vote accordingly. Most of them vote in a bloc. Why should Kerry - as a leading Presidential candidate have "stuck" his neck out and voted against some bill that he knew was going to pass anyways. It would have been very risky.

The public is still at the point where they want someone who sends out a mixed message about the war in Iraq. They don't really want someone who is vehemently anti-war.

[TLM]

31. Notice the new meme, since the conservative label failed...

is to claim Dean is a libratarian.

This meme poped up when folks liek BLM were forced to eat their words about Kerry not supporting any of Bush tax cuts... when Kerry decided to mouth the Bush propaganda that a married couple with 2 kids making 70k a year is an example fothe average middle class or working poor person's sitaution.

Now that Kerry has admitted he does in fact support Bush tax cuts, now their spin has to change.

The change is that because Dean is against the Bush tax cuts and wants to roll them all back, he is against progressive taxation. As if Bush's tax cuts, even the parts that did apply to the middle class, were anything close to progressive.

And Dean has been a populist for 10 years, not months... that's why the most liberal state in the nation elected him 5 times in a row.

And tell me exactly what is progressive and liberal about voting for the IWR, the patriot act, and the no child left behind act?

And Mr. John "get over it" Kerry is still DLC...

[el_gato]

56. "Libertarian leaning centrists?" what utter crap

how in the hell is supporting the Pat Act libertarian?
geez

Now as far as phoney populism you might be on to something.
How bout the real deal for once?

[blm]

108. I'm talking about Dean's Libertarian leanings.

He was the highest rated lawmaker out of all the Democrats by the CATO Institute.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

64. Yep!

Dean is NOT a populist, but he's running a populist campaign. If Dean wins the primary (likely) and beats Bush (not so likely) there will be a lot of disappointed liberals when they find out just how right-wing Dean really is.

[Hep]

71. There's the magic 8 ball again

No one ever says why it is so unlikely. They never back it up with anything. Even if it is just youropinion, what do you base it on? His unprecedented fundraising? His 480,000 signees? What a dark cloud.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

133. Simple: I base it on his long career as a pro-corporate Neo-Liberal

Fortunately, we don't have to take Dean's word. We can look at his long career as NAFTA pimper and corporate lackey, and his support of every war (until he ran for President, that is).

[mitchum]

94. Perfectly said, blm

It seems that the Libertarians have given up on infiltrating the Republican party, but are making great inroads in the Democratic party.

[mmonk]

2. I don't follow their advice because,

the DLC doesn't want to challenge the Republicans on the war. But if the economy rebounds enough to where the public thinks its ok, we'll have to make foreign policy an issue. And quite frankly, it is an issue.

[janekat]

3. Are you going to squawk about how Dean teamed up with the Pubs

on the Medicare Issue?

[Hep]

7. Specifics please

how exactly did he team up with them?

[janekat]

29. Howard Dean's speech in front of Congress regarding cutting Medicare..

In 1995, Dean agreed with Republican plans to cut Medicare by $270 billion and require seniors to pay more.

On May 17, 1995, one day before the Republican Congress voted to cut Medicare, Howard Dean delivered a speech praising the cuts.

"He applauded the efforts of Senate Budget Committee chairman Pete Domenici, R-Nev., who presented his own balanced budget plan last week... Dean also said he could defend Domenici's approach to reducing Medicare costs. He said he supported more managed care for Medicare recipients and requiring some Medicare recipients to pay a greater share of the cost of their medical services...
'I fully subscribe to the notion that we should reduce the Medicare growth rate from 10 percent to 7 percent, or less if possible,' Dean said."

The cuts Dean described - reducing the rate of growth to 7 percent - was exactly what Congressional Republicans proposed: "Republicans want to save $256 billion to $282 billion by cutting the rate of growth of Medicare over seven years, from about 10% to 7%."


.....Washington Times conservative columnist Donald Lambro said, "...the White House and its allies in Congress think they can make some political hay if they can make taxpayers believe the GOP budget cuts will destroy needed government programs... Even Vermont Gov. Howard Dean, the Democratic chairman of the National Governors Association and one of the GOP's severest critics, said, 'I fully subscribe to the notion that we should reduce the Medicare growth rate from 10 percent to 7 percent, or less if possible.'"


http://kerryblog.blogspot.com/

[JaneQPublic]

43. The link doesn't contain the cited text.

Furthermore, nowhere in the text does it say Dean was speaking "in front of Congress"; it says he spoke "one day before the Republican Congress voted."

But to the point: Dean has already explained that, although he supported reducing Medicare's growth rate in 1995 but doesn't anymore, because Bill Clinton has since demonstrated that the deficit can be reduced without doing so.

[janekat]

52. try this....

http://www.deanfacts.com/plugin/template/gephardt/225/*

Must have moved it off the front page of the Kerry blog...

[Hep]

65. OMG

And now she's quoting Deanfacts.com!

Please, you're making me spew Dr. Pepper all over my keyboard. I'll bet you can find some GREAT stuff over at free republic!

http://www.dickfacts.com/slick.html

[janekat]

53. Congressmen send their workers to help out on the Pres. Campaigns

THAT'S why you don't want to piss the "cockroaches" off. If Senator Jones is mad at nominee Dean - he will not help him in the general election. Not only might he not help him - he may do everyhting he can do to put obstacles in his way.

[Hep]

68. Is it only Dean fans

who know what a simile is?

[Hep]

62. So many things wrong with that

Your subject line suggests that you were going to post the speech. You didn't. Why?

You quoted the Washington Times? YOU QUOTED THE WASHINGTON TIMES? The MOONIE TIMES? This is credible to you? When Kerry's vlog starts quoting the washington times to go after Dean, watch your back, there's a knife with the initials JFK on it it's way.

And medicare's growth WAS eventually cut, and it kept solvent. But you call it Standing with the republicans? Because the moonie times told you so? Do you often take info from the moonie times at face value, or just when it demeans those you wish to demean?

How psyched are the folks at the Wash Times that Kerry's using them as a reference? Don't you feel the need to wash your hands?

[janekat]

87. The Washington Times was quoting their buddy Howard Dean

and how wonderful it was that A DEM Governor was sticking up for the Republican Medicare Plan. Kind of like Zell Miller...

[janekat]

4. Good! I hope it works... sorry but if Dean gets the nom - we're screwed!

n/t

[Speck Tater]

12. "President Dean"

Get used to hearing it. Get used to saying it.

[janekat]

15. "Dem Nominee" yes, President-elect: I doubt it

he just can't pull it off...

[CWebster]

24. And if Sir Wesley

The gallant knight on the white DLC charger wins we can all live happily ever after in the patriotic heartland of the military-industrial complex.

At least with Dean we have a better idea of what we are getting than some 11th hour born-again maybe Democrat.

[janekat]

30. Clark, Kerry, Edwards or Gephadt - all four would have a better chance

If I were convinced Dean could pull it off his name would be on the list (at the end, of course - because I don't like his policies). I'm ABB.

[CWebster]

32. Seems to be the minority opinion.

And hey, if you want to dig up the dirt again, I could go dig up the same Clark and Kerry quotes, but we've been through it all a thousand times.

You don't seem to understand, the more you bash, the more we defend. You aren't convincing anyone and your agenda is so, so, so predictable.

[janekat]

44. I know I'll never convince you - there might be hope for some others

to bring them back to the light. LOL! (kidding)

You have put too much of your energy and faith into Dean to be able to change your mind. That's okay - in some respects it shows you're a loyal and passionate person. You and the captain would be the last ones jumping off the ship.

I felt that way about Gore because I worked on the campaign for a year. Just don't get to the point where you're blind to any major flaws in Dean - if you see them.

[CWebster]

58. We know all the flaws by now

This morning I read an article in, what was it.. "The New Leader", maybe? The cover story is on Dean and it recounts Dean's political history as governor of Vermont. The article pulls no punches, but at the end of the article it mentions all the players from the Left to the Right that he opposed or had confrontations or disagreements with Dean, but were now planning to vote for him if not working on his campaign.


What is it they see is beyond Dean.

[RetroLounge]

83. And if Dean gets the Nom, who will you vote for?

Well?

[janekat]

88. Dean, of course. ABB.

n/t

[RetroLounge]

100. So why spend almost every one of your posts

tearing down a guy you will vote for?

Maybe you should turn that energy around to support for your guy and against Bush...

[Hep]

5. The DLC isn't in trouble

THey can do what they want. They're irrelevant. They're not out of jobs, they just don't have as many people who listen to them.

[KittyWampus]

8. Why Did DLC'er Donna Brazile Defend Dean?

Just asking....

[cindyw]

17. Donna Brazile has been saying a lot of crazy things lately

She even praises the president on occasion.

[Hep]

20. Because he's right

I wonder thought, was she representing the DLC?

[redqueen]

46. Um....

Nevermind, minds are made up already. :)

[David Zephyr]

50. Dennis Kucinich is Hardly the Darling of the DLC, Redqueen.

And for the record, I would prefer Kucinich to Dean in a heartbeat (now that he's come on board supporting a woman's right to choose), but the hard truth is that Dennis is running a terrible campaign and Dean is running an amazing grass roots campaign.

But getting back to the heart of this thread, Dennis and Howard and Sharpton and Mosely-Braun are prototypical of the very sort of Democrats that the DLC originally organized to marginalize.

[redqueen]

91. Don't I know it!

I should hope not, I'm a liberal and I'm SO not concerned with the DLC or what they think.

Not really sure where we got our wires crossed... and I hope that since you prefer Kucinich that you'll consider throwing some cash at his campaign. That way he can keep pushing the party towards its populist roots. Kucinich Site :7

But back to the topic, I'm not sure when exactly the DLC stopped loving Dean, but love him they did! This was from back in '96:

State & Local New Democrats

"Incumbent centrist Democratic Governors Howard Dean of Vermont, Jim Hunt of North Carolina, Tom Carper of Delaware, and Mel Carnahan of Missouri, are all popular and heavily favored for re-election. In open governorships, Jeanne Shaheen of New Hampshire and Gary Locke of Washington State are likely to win thanks to a sharp contrast between their centrist messages and the far-right agendas of their opponents. Lieutenant Governor Frank O'Bannon of Indiana is running well against a popular Republican opponent, in no small measure because of his partnership with the outgoing governor, New Democrat Evan Bayh."


I'm curious to know how long ago Dean got on the DLC's s***list. Anyone have any idea?

[blm]

95. WHAT? Dean was PART of the DLC pulling right

for all those years, and you revise history to claim that he is the kind of Democrat that the "DLC originally organized to marginalize"...Geez....Care to share exactly WHEN Dean resigned from the DLC? Does his populist rhetoric of the last 10 months cancel out his ENTIRE career as a DLC centrist?

[David Zephyr]

98. John Kerry is Fortunate to Have You as His Supporter.

n/t

[blm]

109. Now, if only I was half as articulate as you

he'd be ahead in the polls here. ;)))))))))))

[David Zephyr]

114. Shush Yo Mouth.

We're all here together, but I think you know that I have loathed the DLC for years and spent a great deal of time at the 1992 Convention in NYC with the Brown folks fighting these types...even in caucus meetings and on platform issues.

My post is not against John Kerry. Kerry is hardly the darling of the DLC, but I do feel they'd jump over hoops to have him over Howard Dean who scares the shit out of them.

OXOXOX

[CWebster]

9. damn,

Good one.

[caledesi]

11. Cost being the operative word here. They can't afford Howard Dean. nt

[realFedUp]

13. Dean has to get more union backing

I think it's the union heads that keep the Dems in the center...
I could be offbase here but Dean still has to get their backing
and will if he's nominated.

[boxster]

14. If you really believe that Dean can win by pissing off large parts of

the Democratic party, you are much too confident for this early in the election cycle. Translating early primary polls into presumed nationwide support next November is misguided, at best, as is assuming that he can win without widespread support of members of Congress and other influential Democrats.

"Howard Dean has proven that he doesn’t need them."

Howard Dean hasn't proven anything yet. It is a very, very dangerous strategy to assume that Dean can win the presidency by gaining the support of the angry voters and the activists, and the rest of the party be damned. In addition, there is a huge base of Independent voters in this country, and appealing only to the "Democratic wing of the Democratic party" isn't going to bring them in. Likewise, calling the leadership of the Party evil and vile likely isn't going to garner much support there.

I sincerely hope that the overconfidence displayed by Dean's supporters does not lead to complacency. If he becomes the nominee, we need him to appeal to as wide a range of people as possible, including those whom you appear to abhor.

Lastly, lumping Tom Daschle in with Zell and Joe is pretty ridiculous, as they certainly are not the same politically. I will agree that Daschle has not been the leader most of us hoped he would be, but claiming he's "more vile" than the Republican Party because of his support by the DLC is ridiculous. He cannot compete with the likes of Tom DeLay, Rick Santorum, and many others on the vileness meter, as far as I'm concerned.

Whether you acknowledge it or not, Dean is going to need the support of as many existing Democratic officeholders as possible, most certainly including the Senate Minority Leader. And, again, he is going to need to appeal to as wide a spectrum as possible, or we might as well kiss off beating Bush in 2004.

Note: before you flame me, this is not intended as support of the DLC or their positions. This is meant only to bring attention to what I see as a pattern of overconfidence in Dean's supporters, Mr. Zephyr included. This overconfidence appears to be leading them to assume we don't need every Democrat we can get our hands on in the vote next November. I believe the opposite.

[CWebster]

19. More like the DLC has pissed off large chunks of the party

judging by how many rally behind Dean.

[boxster]

45. So, the only reason Dean has so much support is because

the DLC pissed off the Party?

Is that what you're saying?

I doubt you meant it that way, but if his only support is people pissed off at the DLC, we're in trouble if he wins the nomination.

[CWebster]

73. Do I have to explain this?

Yes, much of Dean's base of support is angry at the ineffective and capitulating leadership of the DLC dominated party.

Dean tapped into that and voiced the frustration and resent so many were experiencing with our elected representitives. That is a hugh tide of voters, but no, that is not all of his supporters.

Take a look at many of the threads posted here everyday and see if they don't reflect that same anger and frustration with the current climate and the ineffectiveness of our leaders...look for yourself.

[boxster]

81. Well, pardon me, but your entire message was....

More like the DLC has pissed off large chunks of the party judging by how many rally behind Dean.

How else do you suppose one should interpret that? Besides, I very clearly stated that you likely didn't mean to say that his entire support base was people angry at the DLC.

My point is that he can't afford to flatly disregard the support of ANYONE in the party (except maybe Zell Miller, who won't vote for him anyway). The original poster overconfidently stated that Dean has proven that he doesn't need Daschle or anyone else in any way affiliated with the DLC. This is silly, and it is misguided.

With $200 million in funds for BushCo and a constant barrage of negative attacks by the media, Dean is going to need every, single vote he can get. Getting that support from Democrats, even those his supporters abhor, is a hell of a lot easier than getting it from Independents and Republicans.

If the common goal is to beat Bush, we'll need nearly every Democrat and more to do it. If the goal is just to be the anti-DLC candidate and disregard support of the Senate majority leader and others, good luck in November.

[David Zephyr]

90. Polluters, Religious Fanatics and Crooked Defense Contractors

What's "silly and misguided" is misrepresenting someone's else's words, wouldn't you agree?

The "original poster" (that's me) posted that Dean has proven that he doesn't need the money from the likes of polluters, religious fanatics and crooked defense contractors.

[CWebster]

119. Hey, let's get real here

It is Dean taking most of the heat and it is Dean who has the broadest grassroots support. It is the others who should be worried about pissing off Dean's supporters. Instead you keep making noise about how Dean shouldn't piss off the others who are currently looking to knock Dean out.

C'mon.

[boxster]

127. Excuse me?

It is the others who should be worried about pissing off Dean's supporters.

Pardon my profanity, but why the hell should we give a shit if we piss off Dean's supporters or not? What is that - some kind of weird threat? "Better not piss us off!"

Besides, your post has little to do with what I said. Mr. Zephyr is claiming Dean has proven that he can write off the DLC and still win next November.

I say he's wrong and that writing off the DLC and the lawmakers they support would be stupid, no matter how much you detest them.

[Code_Name_D]

125. Yep, Dean tuched the third rail

...and came back with super powers.

Faster than a speading smear,
Stronger than a lie,
And able to leap over tall piles of proaganda in a singel bound.

Its a dentrist, no, its a moderate, NO!
It's

Dr. Howerd Dean!

Come to save the world against the evil PNAC, ploting behind close doors to rape and pillige the world to their own selfish ends.

Figting for truth! Justice! And the American way

(We don't hear that vary often do we.)

[Julien Sorel]

55. Dean is at something like 12% in the most recent poll.

How is that 'rallying behind Dean'? Some of you people need a reality check -- badly. Dean is a Democratic Goldwater waiting to happen, except Goldwater at least had genuine principles and beliefs. Dean has little more than his ambition.

[sangh0]

72. According to some, 12% is a garaunteed victory

I guess they assume that when candidates like Lieberman drop out, their supporters will come over to Dean. :crazy:

[mmonk]

21. Many Dean supporters use the DLC attacks

as a red badge of courage (and I guess alot of people would, but it doesn't make him great).

[JaneQPublic]

22. Correction: He's pissing off party operatives, not the whole party

He's doing great with the grassroots members of the party.

In fact, his success with the grassroots is probably what pisses off the party operatives most. Dean is making them obsolete.

[cindyw]

26. Correction: I am a grassrooter and I do not like Dean

I am not an operative. You have to accept that Dean is slowly pissing off the supporters of all the other candidates. If he wants to win the General, he has to let go of his divisive style. The question is will the people he alienates fight for him in the general?

[CWebster]

37. What do you expect him to do?

Let the others run all over him because he is the one they all want to take down? We see him get hit from all quarters, how do you expect us to fight for any of the others?

[janekat]

47. My guess is they won't join the campaign but will reluctantly vote for him

some will stay home....

The problem is - you really do need the best campaign workers out there to join forces in order to win the general.

[boxster]

61. He cannot win with grassroots support alone.

The original poster said, "Howard Dean has proven that he doesn't need them."

At this point, he hasn't proven squat. He's proven that he's among the frontrunners nationally and in the few states that have done polls. Many of his supporters are acting like his nomination is a slam dunk and that he's going to wipe up the floor with Bush in '04. Polls are proof of nothing. Just ask Max Cleland.

Assuming that Dean doesn't need all the help he can get is also misguided. Winning the nomination is one thing; beating Bush is another entirely. Flatly discounting the support of anyone who has ever been associated with the DLC is ludicrous. If he wins the nomination, he'll need all the help he can get.

Obsolete? That's wishful thinking on the part of Dean supporters who I believe are giving him too much credit.

[David Zephyr]

69. Polluters, Religious Fanatics and Crooked Defense Contractors.

Let's hope Dean doesn't need them which is what I posted in my original thread, right?

Also, my originating post did not call for "Flatly discounting the support of anyone who has ever been associated with the DLC" rather I specifically mentioned both the founder/CEO and the current President of the DLC by name.

[Name removed]

126. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[boxster]

129. No, what you said was...

"Howard Dean has proven that he doesn’t need them."

That's certainly not the same as "Let's hope Dean...."

And, yes, you mentioned From and Reed, but your rant is obviously against the DLC, not just those two members of it.

[cindyw]

25. I second this notion

I too do not support the DLC style members. But I think that if a candidate wins the nomination with only 30% of the electorate, they have no chance of winning the General unless they bring all democrats together. No candidate can write off an section of the democratic voters. Not Dean, not Lieberman, not Kerry.

[sendero]

85. what amazes me...

... is listening to folks talk about Dean's divisiveness, as though if they (Kerry, Clark) got the nomination *their* divisiveness would not be an issue.

Yeah, right, Dean is the only one slinging sh*t. Well, get used to it because it's called a PRIMARY. I'll be glad when it is over and I'll support whoever wins it. But get over the idea it's going to be nice, and get over the idea that "my guy" is not as bad as the rest, they are all doing it. It's called campaigning.

Now stop crying in your teacups and get over it. That's an order. :)

[janekat]

34. You need the support of the congressmen and Govs to carry the state....

very important in the general election....

[blm]

136. Governors who worked with him should have

supported him by now it seems. He was head of the Governor's Association at one point.

[tedoll78]

23. Actually, I suspect how a Dean candidacy would work-out..

Dean has TONS of fodder to move to the center on in the general election. He cut personal income taxes by ~30% while governor! - I can see that finding its way into the general discourse. He fought-off attempts to unseat him from the Left and the Right. Add the numerous fights with lefties in Vermont's legislature, the NRA support, the balanced budgets, etc, and you have a recipe for Dean's Centrist Shuffle.

I think the DLC has qualms about Dean not being one of them more than anything else. They're conveniently seizing on the tone of his message rather than the substance of it because they want that hold on power to sustain, even if it means electoral disaster.. (never mind that he and the DLC agree on a number of issues).

[bleedingheart]

27. the DLC can kiss my bum

[Wellong]

28. To steal a line

from the Gropeinator, "Howard Dean will Clean House."

[Tyler Durden]

33. No offense, but you're doing it wrong.

You have written an OP ED, and give nothing but your opinion with the exclusion of a quote from someone (excuse me for this) that I have no idea even who they are.

This is designed to demonize anyone you care to associate with the "DLC," and does nothing to support unity. Again, no offense, but your sort of post does nothing to make me want support Howard Dean.

Try again, with a little less venom.

[David Zephyr]

39. Perhaps This Will Help You Out A Bit.

If you don't know who Al From and Bruce Reed are, then I'd recommend you research a little before commenting.

Al From is the founder and current CEO of the DLC. Bruce Reed is the current president of the DLC.

[Tyler Durden]

48. I'm giving you constructive criticism.

Ignore it if you want, but I'm 51 years old and had a lifetime of people yelling at me. Hasn't convinced me yet.

You want to post a diatribe, fine. But unless you're preaching to the choir, you want to CONVINCE, not COERCE.

And you're failing at that.

Your rant makes me want to shut you off. Try reasoned and calm rhetoric (not a dirty word, by the way) and I'll listen. ATTENTIVELY. But when someone starts raving, I smell fanatic, and that's the kind of partisan that keeps Bush in office.

Try again.

[David Zephyr]

75. The Thread is About the DLC, Folks. The DLC.

It would be instructive to have those upset with my originating post to explain why they are so defensive of the DLC and its attacks on Howard Dean.

[Tyler Durden]

78. I'm defensive about your divisive attitude.

Anyone who calls ANY Democratic based organization "...more vile than the Republican Party..." is not trying to convince and consolidate. They are grinding an ax.

I'm trying to get you to CALM DOWN and practice reasoned rhetoric. You make no links, cite ONE quote, and the rest of your diatribe practices the logical falacy commonly called "poisoning the well" or just common name-calling.

You are not winning friends and influencing people. I'm not MARRIED to Wesley Clark. I have changed my mind in the past (most intelligent people do...like Howard Dean for example). Don't beat and berate me. Convince me.

And be polite about it. I'm not your enemy. BUSH is.

[LoneStarLiberal]

84. There's One Thing That Posts Like These Presuppose...

There's one thing that all posts like these theorizing that someone-or-another's candidate of choice is going to make such-and-such irrelevant for all time take for granted: Winning.

I'm not talking about winning the Democratic nomination in 2004. I'm talking about winning the General Election in 2004.

I don't care if it's Howard Dean, my guy Wes Clark, John Kerry, Al Sharpton, or Dennis Kucinich who wins the Democratic nomination; if they move on to get trounced in the general election against George Bush, or hell, if they even lose by the tiniest margin, it will cast all aspects of their campaign prior to that loss in a questionable light.

So far, the only thing I've seen from any campaign that I think we will see again in 2008 are online donations and the use of Meetup, something which has as many problems as it does benefits (ask anyone who lives in a place where you can't get 35 people together, i.e. anyone outside most major metropolitan areas).

Winning in the general election is the only way anyone or anything is going to be validated as potentially rendering some existing apparatus "irrelevant."

Besides, until someone takes the next logical step with all this ballyhooed grassroots revolution and develops an interest group to carry this grassroots message through INTO ALL THOSE OFF-ELECTION YEARS, the DLC ain't goin' nowhere.

Make the grassroots revolution that everyone talks about this election cycle sustainable, THEN you can start talking about making the DLC and its interest group ilk irrelevant.

[reachout]

86. Some thoughts

While I'm way to the left of Dean on...well, just about everything, I do think his populist approach to campaigning is a positive. I think it represents something that a lot of Democrats have lost over the years. Even ignoring the right-left paradigm, the DLC has turned the party more towards what I sometimes think of as the "Country Club" style of leadership, with a small group of elites trying to make all the decsisions and run the elections from behind closed doors.

I fully realize that Dean is really a centerist Democrat, but I think any campaign that moves the power base of the party away from the top of the pyramid is a step in the right direction.

The fundamentalist christian faction of the Texas Republican party showed how it is possible, with the right level of commitment and organization to seize party apparatus from insiders. Within a decade, they managed to usurp traditional power structures within the state party, and they did so at a time Republicans were in meteoritc ascendency in the state (largely from wholesale defections from the Democratic party).

I disagree with their motives, but I believe it is possible to learn from their success.

Now, I don't think that Dean will be some total outsider. When I see people like Danny Sebright and Maria Echaveste hovering around him, I realize that the insider establishment is getting their hooks firmly embedded. I still think his campaign represents a good opportunity for a lot of grassroots Democrats to plug back in and start working on changing things.

Differences right now or not, I think the DLC will throw its full weight behind him if he wins the nomination. When you don't control any branch of the federal government, you hook your wagon to whatever star you can find.

[LoneStarLiberal]

89. Good Comparison; Speaks to Sustainability of the Message

As I wrote in a post above, I think that the challenge in all this "so-and-so is going to make the DLC irrelevant" rhetoric is to prove to both outsiders and insiders that this grassroots revolution that is supposed to be propelling Dean and Clark is sustainable beyond the Presidental election cycle for 2004.

If you can prove sustainability and viability, you will get the attention of the DLC. In order to do that you have to do more than simply be angry or get drafted. You have to organize, commit, and basically do all the things that show you aren't some flash-in-the-pan movement that will disappear as rapidly as it appeared.

See the Reform Party for a case study of how this plays out.

In the case of the Christian right's takeover of the Texas Republican Party, their vehicle of sustainability was the pulpit. They stuck with their message and their agenda, they sustained it between election cycles, and they started winning at the local level and then grew from there.

There is no rocket science in this formula.

[David Zephyr]

93. Execellent Observations.

As most DU'ers know, like you I am also "way to the left of Dean on...well, just about everything" and to me Dean is also a "centrist". And this is what has been so amusing to me, a socialist, seeing some here suggest that I am a Dean devotee.

I have posted consistently that I prefer both the politics and positions of Dennis Kucinich and Carol Mosely-Braun to those of Howard Dean, which can easily be discovered through the helpful archives here at the DU, but that it is Dean who can and will win the Democratic nomination, and it is Dean who can and will defeat George W. Bush in 2004---at least in the popular vote, that is.

The only point where we would depart is that I disagree that the DLC "will throw its full weight behind" Dean once he is the nominee. I say this because they will have no "weight" to throw around. Corporations will give directly to Dean without channeling it through Al From's parasitic organization. They will give because they will hedge their bets...just as they always do.

If the DLC leadership was as politically astute as they pretend to be to their corporate sponsors, then they should have recognized, even their delusion of importance, that Howard Dean could have come as far as he has without them. Imagine this: Howard Dean is raising more money (through small donations) than all the other candidates combined. What a stinging insult to the DLC this must be! A Democrat who disregarded their influence and who raises more money on his own than they can.

[kwolf68]

96. Now there is Democracy

If Howard Dean has what it takes to win the nomination then that is the way the process works and we should support him.

If these DLC dicks think they have a better man..>THEN PUT HIM OUT THERE...Is it Joe? We'll Dean is cleaning him off the deck.

Who is it? If NOT DEAN, then WHO DLC? WHo AL? WHO WHO WHO?

If Dean is so freaking horrible, then LETS SEE YOUR MAN? This is Democracy assholes...and this is the way we choose our candidates. If Dean is who Democrats choose then that is the way it goes.

If Dean isn't any good and there is someone better, then that will also come to fruition.

First we have idiot Zell Miller endorsing the Reich and now the DLC is on a crusade against our frontrunner. LMAO...I swear to God the Democratic Party has to have right wing plants in it somehwere.

[David Zephyr]

99. Bingo.

Thanks for weighing in.

[kwolf68]

102. Anytime

I guess I just don't like to see good people pissed on who don't deserve it.

Dean has run a solid campaign and has appealed to a lot of people. I'm not in his corner at this time, but respect the process.

Democrats will choose whether or not Dean is the guy. If he isn't then the DLC can celebrate...If he is, then we must move forward, get behind him and try to unseat this filthy administration.

I have seen the corruption of the Halliburtons, I have seen Henry Waxman's letter to Tommy Thompson about a right wing "scientist hit list" that indicts scientists working on aids, I have seen doctored EPA documents, the pillaging of our environment, I have seen the erosion of our civil rights, the inability to dissent, I have seen Conservative Christian hypocrisy that celebrates hate war revenge and violence, I have seen the rise of propaganda and other assorted right wing evils.

I used to spend many minutes on here bashing at Dean's supporters when I felt they had gone astray.

In looking at the news over the past couple weeks I came to the conclusion that the Dean people are NOT MY ENEMIES. They are in fact, my brothers and sisters who want what is best for this country, they believe Bush is rotten to the core and that Dean can deliver us (in some part) from this evil beast.

I am now appalled at the countless anti-Dean tirades by the DLC types. WE TRIED IT YOUR WAY in 2002 guys? We ran to the center, we had moderate politicians all over the map getting defeated one after the other...Senators and candidates in Georgia, New Hampshire, Missouri, and Texas ran center-based campaings, promoting the vestiges of war and the same tired center driven cliches. IT GOT US REMOVED FROM SENATE POWER.

Given the choice between a Liberal and a "Liberal light" politician I'll vote for the true Liberal 100% of the time. WHy would a Conservative be any different?

Further, Bush hardly ran on a rigid right-wing agenda. Did Bush run on this shit he is doing? NO he didn't. The idea that "we have to move to the right" is balderdash as much as the Republicans have to "move to the left."

In my view, a move to the right by the Democrats will effectively usher in single-party rule which is a basic covenant of fascism. If Dean is who the opposition chooses, then I'll be on board when that decision is made.

[David Zephyr]

115. You Said It.

The Democrats tried it the DLC way in 1992 and we all know what happened. Nice meeting you here.

[Skwmom]

97. It won't be just the DLC out of business, try the whole Democratic party

is the Dean Disaster is allowed to continue.

[KaraokeKarlton]

101. "allowed to continue"???? WTF?

Dean is doing great because he's worked his ass off and because THE PEOPLE are behind him. Whoever gains the majority of the support in the primaries is who will get the nomination. That's the way it works, as well it should. If you don't think Dean should be that guy then what the hell are you doing complaining about Dean instead of promoting the person you think is better?

Here a clue for you...the other candidates can't even stop Dean. How the hell are they going to compete with Bush if they aren't any competition for Dean? It's obvious who the strongest candidate is, it's the one no one can stop. Common sense clearly shows that since Dean is the strongest candidate running, he has the best chance of competing with Bush. Dean stepped in and essentially put an end to the right wing circle jerk going on around this country by criticizing Bush. And you think he's a weak nominee? He already has proven how good he is at throwing a wrench in Bush's campaign. I can't believe how blind some people on this site are. It is SO OBVIOUS that Dean is going to win it all. And there is nothing that's going to stop him.

[Sideways]

104. Poor Mommy

No More Wire Hangers! Dean is SUCH a meanie! Is hyperbole your middle name? Don't you have a poopy diaper to change mommy?

[Scott Lee]

107. If the DLC actually represents the totality of the Democrats

Then you all might as well throw in the towel. That jallopy is ready for the landfill.

[David Zephyr]

116. I'm Ready to Help Push It Into the Landfill, Scott Lee.

Ready? Push!

[dolstein]

103. The DU solution: write off anyone who owns a gun or believes in God

Yeah, that'll do the trick.

[Scott Lee]

105. That means as a gun owning Pagan, I'm screwed ;)

n/t

[Padraig18]

111. Ain't it the truth?

:eyes:

[David Zephyr]

117. I've Never Heard Anyone Articulate That Position at the DU, Dolstein.

Are you having a bad day? Why would you say such a thing?

Are you really that committed to the DLC? And I thought you were coming around.

[dolstein]

122. Where have you been?

The DLC has been visciously attacked by DU'ers for daring to suggest that the Democratic Party has alienated gun owners and the religiously devout. Sure, all they have to back up their claims are poll numbers showing considerable erosion in support for the Democratic Party among gun owners and regular church goers. I think the DLC has a point when they say that the Democrats should be more respectful of these people. You and others obviously disagree. But when I call you on it, you demur. Sorry, but you can't have it both ways.

[David Zephyr]

134. Please.

Spare yourself.

Your argument about the DLC and guns is without merit as it is Howard Dean who has the most pro-gun postion of any of the 9 Democrats and yet it is Howard Dean who the DLC is attacking.

You've called me on nothing.

And you, as always, dodged my reply to your vacant and false charge that the DU advocates 'writing off anyone who owns guns or believes in God'. I asked you to document that and you dodged (unartfully).

[Cocoa]

106. Dean is ok

I think that even though his campaign encourages his supporters to constantly spew bile all over other democrats, and that many of them do so on DU, Dean could be a good president.

[criticalwords]

110. They should try and stop Dean!

Dean is poison!

Dean would be decimated in a general election.

Kerry's supporters, Edwards's supporters, Gephardt's supporters, Lieberman's supporters...OVERWHELMINGLY DO NOT LIKE DEAN. Some went ballistic in saying that they would vote for Bush if Dean were the nominee, and others, like myself, have demanded that...WE WILL NOT VOTE.

Getting Bush out of the White House is important and crucial, but the most important thing is getting someone in the White House that is worth it...AND DEAN AIN'T THAT SOMEONE. I don't believe in that lesser of two evils crap. Evil is evil. I wouldn't settle for Dean or Bush!

I'll vote for my state Democratic representatives in 2004, but if Dean is the nominee, I will not vote for President, and the animosity that Dean has fostered in the Democratic party will cause a falling away in 2004 like you have never seen.

COUNT ON IT! Fool yourself into believing otherwise at the peril of the entire Democratic Party.

I told a lot of people over at C-Span that they would grow to support Edwards once they learned more about him. They didn't believe it, but now the C-Span board is basically blog.johnedwards 2 because of the level of support he has there. I told a lot of people on the web back in March that Dean was trying to divide the Democratic party, and based on reactions from the other campaigns and the Democratic Party's leadership, he is doing that. What you all fail to realize is that most people in this country...ARE MODERATES...so it would be stupid to move too far anyway except for the center. Very few people in this country are extremely liberal or extremely conservative.

I'M TELLING YOU THAT IF DEAN IS THE NOMINEE, THEN THERE WILL BE A MASS EXODUS FROM THIS PARTY IN 2004 AND THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION LOVES IT BECAUSE REPUBLICANS ARE TRYING TO DESTROY THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND MAKE THIS A ONE-PARTY COUNTRY, AND DEAN IS HELPING THEM. That's why Rove was chanting, "Go Dean, Go! Go, Dean, Go!"

Dean is in a fight right now based on an article from the Boston Globe trying to keep some documents from his days as governor, sealed. Release them Dean. Show us how many times you met with people we don't like. Maybe even Karl Rove!

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/10/09/dean_feared_a_horton_scenario/

Don't believe it? I'll say the same thing I always have said.

It doesn't matter, it's so...

[Scott Lee]

112. Popular vote doesn't elect the president anyway

I'll vote for my state Democratic representatives in 2004, but if Dean is the nominee, I will not vote for President,

Go for it. Unless you are a delegate, who cares.

[criticalwords]

113. It doesn't matter!

Delegates in the electoral college cast their votes...OR ARE SUPPOSED TO CAST THEIR VOTES...based on which candidate receives the most votes in the state. So, the popular vote of each state determines which candidate the delegates cast their votes for.

THAT'S WHY GORE, WHO REALLY WOULD HAVE WON IN 2004 IF JEB BUSH WOULDN'T HAVE THROWN OUT OVER 93,000 AFRICAN AMERICAN VOTES IN FLORIDA BY DEEMING THEM SUSPICIOUS BY MATCHING THEIR NAMES TO THE NAMES OF FELONS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, IN PARTICULAR, TEXAS WHERE BUSH WAS GOVERNOR!

Gore won the popular vote for one simple reason. He overwhelmingly won California...AND NEW YORK...the two most populous states in the country. What's 50,000 or 500,000 votes to New York or California???

Those are table scraps!

So bringing up the popular vote theory for Gore is...USELESS! New York and California together almost got him the popular vote!

So, duh, to the popular vote/electoral vote/delegates mess. Whoever gets the...POPULAR VOTE...in the state is going to receive the delegates, and if I don't vote for President, that's one less popular vote for either candidate...

[Scott Lee]

131. You deflated your own premise

Delegates in the electoral college cast their votes...OR ARE SUPPOSED TO CAST THEIR VOTES

Well there ya go.

I just moved from Utah. I can tell you with complete confidence that it wouldn't matter if 95% of Utahns popularly voted for a liberal democrat presidential candidate. The Utah delegation in general would STILL choose the conservative candidate.

The electoral college is a vestigal, out of date artifact of our democratic institutions which sought only to keep control of the executive branch in the hands of the financial (land owning) elite. As such, their natural tendency is going to be to favor the candidate that caters to the rich.

The only way we are going to be able to prevail in 2004 is to SOUNDLY trounce these a-holes at the polls. Close won't count, because we have to overcome a margin of conservatism inherent in the electoral system.

[David Zephyr]

118. Anybody But Dean's Chapter President.

Howard Dean is "evil"? You use that word as casually as George W. Bush does. Do you really believe he is "evil"?

So what do you like about the DLC? That's what this thread is about, by the way.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[David Zephyr]

121. Wow. You Call Me A "Douchebag". Now That's Dialogue.

Nothing to add to that.

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[boxster]

128. Try to follow the thread, please. He wasn't referring to you.

eom

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rman]

130. so much for "Dean is to centrist"

where are the Dean-is-to-centrist-Clark-is-much-more-liberal DU-ers now?

[wyldwolf]

132. You make this statement based on the original poster's...

... opinion?

[Flying_Pig]

135. *uck the DLC, and all who support them. They can take Zell, and

Breaux, Lieberman, and all the rest, and hit the road. If I'd had wanted to join the Republican Party 34 years years ago when I first registered to vote, I would have registered as a Repug, but I didn't. I registered as a Democrat, and goddamn it, I am not going to let these fucking DINOs and Rethug-lites steal my party without a fight.

:grr: