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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 07:00 PM
Original message
Anyone Remember Ramsey Clark?

I got some pictures of Ramsey at Saturday's rally. Welcome to share.

http://www.returningsoldiers.us/ramsey.htm

I know about the 'Articles of Impeachment' and the 'War Crimes Tribunal', but I don't feel I really know everything about this great man.

Anyone out there have any personal stories or other observations of Ramsey? I'm hungry for another view of this man, and would be most grateful for any bite.
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Postman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. He's been marginalized by the rightwing.
attacked as a socialist.
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. ramsey and all the anti-war protestors have been vehemently
attacked here on DU for the last 5 days...it's really sad....and it's a little-disguised attempt to marginalize the entire anti-war protest movement and re-select the shrub....the saddest part is that many DUers jumped on the total attack bandwagon full bore...

that's exactly what nixon did...and what's been done here on this board...sad...
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
33. He has certainly given them amunition
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. Destroying a political movement
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 11:56 AM by bigtree
Here's Ramsey justifying his involvement with the La Rouche case:

I bring this matter to you directly, because I believe it involves a broader range of deliberate and systematic misconduct and abuse of power over a longer period of time in an effort to destroy a political movement and leader, than any other federal prosecution in my time or to my knowledge.

His is the type advocacy that ensures all of our rights. It takes some courage to stand for fine principles that have broad effect.

For instance:

The Wilson-era assaults on civil liberties; Schenck v. U.S.; Frohwerk v. U.S.; Debs v. U.S., Abrams v. U.S., were ratified by Supreme Court decisions which asserted that free speech in wartime was a hindrance to the efforts of peace.

The Court wanted to draw a clear line between free speech and harmful speech, but their reasoning was blunt. The effect of their rulings was a stifling of protest and dissent

Justice Holmes, in upholding the 1919 Schnek case, in which leaflets were distributed that expressed opposition to the draft, wrote of the words of protest: "Their utterance will not be endured so long as men fight" (referring to the war), and that "no court could regard them as protected by any constitutional right.”

In the case of Frohwerk, the Supreme Court used the Schnek decision to uphold the convictions of two newspaper workers for publishing articles which condemned the war.

The Schnek decision was also used by the Supreme Court in 1919 to uphold the conviction of Eugene Debs under the Espionage Act for giving a public address condemning capitalism, advocating socialism, and speaking in defense of those who had been imprisoned for exercising their free speech rights. Similarly, in the case of Abrams, the Supreme Court upheld the conviction for distributing antiwar leaflets.

Not until 1969, would the Supreme Court unanimously abandon Schnek standard to overturn the conviction in the case of Brandenburg v. Ohio; in support of the free speech rights of a member of theKu Klux Klan.

The broad decision in Brandenburg gave future courts room for the passage of the many protections of public expression and advocacy which we rely on today in our dissent and protest.

That's why it is sometimes necessary to defend the civil and legal rights of reprehensible people.




Shameless plug: above excerpt from my unpublished book, 'Power Of Mischief'
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Political movement?
Even calling LaRouche a political movement shows just how far out there Clark is. Larouche is nothing more than a snake oil salesman pretending to be a politician and an economist.

LaRouche wasn't convicted for treason or for any of his words of ideas. He was convicted of defrauding his supporters by overcharging their credit cards for campaign contributions.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Look at what Ramsey is arguing in the case link you provided
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 12:50 PM by bigtree
misrepresentation of material facts and Brady violations by the prosecutors;

withholding of relevant materials from the prosecutors by the FBI to avoid its discovery;

unlawful searches and seizures by government agents;

subornation and condonation of perjury;

witness tampering;

failure to disclose promises, rewards or inducements to witnesses;

improper utilization of a civil mater to advance a criminal prosecution;

denial of the existence of, and failure to produce an existing FBI file on Lyndon LaRouche compiled under Executive Order 12333, and;

creating adverse media coverage through leaks and unattributed comments;

In short, it demonstrates a pervasive conspiracy and concerted action designed to do precisely what Judge Crane found, "lay low these defendants at any cost," and then to cover their tracks. The fact of political motivation in this conspiracy is demonstrated by the evidence, particularly by that which reveals the collaboration between the government and avowed political antagonists of LaRouche and his movement.


Who was in office during the alleged persecution of La Rouche?:
Reagan, Ronald 1981-89


Ramsey's not condoning theft or anything that you are smearing LaRouche with. He's arguing for the man's constitutional rights. Could be your rights on the line one day.

He challenging the government to follow due process. I don't want a society that dishes out summary judgement like you have. I want a just society of just laws. That's what I believe Ramsey's fighting for.

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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. His Father Was A Conservative Supreme Court Justice Appointed By
LBJ. His name was Tom Clark....


Ramsey Clark was one of LBJ's Attorney Generals...

He ran unsuccessfully for a U S Senate seat in NY against James Buckley....

He was a decorated soldier....
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. He seems to be in earnest about our democracy
I sense an urgency from this man that is so lacking in most of our efforts.

He reminds me of the conviction of Kuchinich, the vision of King. . .
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Johnyawl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. Wrong

Tom Clark was Harry Truman's Attorney General; Truman appointed him to the Supreme Court in 1949, a decision that Truman would later regret publically. Truman admitted to a biographer that "Tom Clark was my biggest mistake." But he insisted: "It isn't so much that he's a bad man. It's just that he's such a dumb son of a bitch."



LBJ wanted to be the President that appointed the first black American to the Supreme Court. To do that, he needed a current justice to either die, or resign. Johnson knew that Ramsey's appointment to AG would maneuver Tom into stepping down. This cleared the way for the appointment of Thurgood Marshall,

Decorated Soldier? In his official bio he's listed as having served in the USMC from 1945-1946, but it doesn't say anything about being decorated.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. He is an American Patriot. Has had a regime change site up for a while

I don't have the url handy right now, but someone will, you can sign his petition to impeach the current PNAC boy singer. Admittedly a baby step, but the longest journey begins with one. :)
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. He is an American Patriot
Yep, that's my opinion.
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kainah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. He's fought some amazing battles in his time
Here's a good biographical link: http://i-p-o.org/Clark.htm
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
7.  Thanks kainah
:hippie:
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
8. kick
:smoke:
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
9. here's a great Ramsey Clark interview (link) on Amer. Militarism
this interview was before the Iraq war started, and it also covers American colonialism, and the 1 % of Americans that can stop this entire pentagoon crap right in it's tracks...representing that 1% were the anti-war protestors in DC last Saturday...it's the BEAST that rose up to take back our country...and that's why so many reTHUGlicans, and so many interlopers here on DU have vehemently attacked the anti-war protestors, and ramsey clark, and the whole movement...bush* is afraid of the 1 % Patriotic Americans that can BOOT him back to his silly 'prairie chapel ranch' in Crawford Texas....we can and we will take back OUR government....

http://www.thesunmagazine.org/bully.html

-snips-

Jensen: So what do we do?

Clark: I think the solution relies on the power of the idea, and the power of the word, and on a belief that, in the end, the ultimate power resides in the people.

In discussing the effects of U.S. foreign policy, we've been talking about only one part of the story. Another part is resistance - the power of the people. We saw that in the Philippines, when Marcos was deposed in a nonviolent revolution, and we saw that in Iran, when the Shah's staggering power was overcome, as well, by a nonviolent revolution.

Of course, just getting rid of Marcos or the Shah is not the end of the story. People sometimes think that, after the glorious revolution, everybody is going to live happily ever after. But it doesn't work that way. What they've gone through in the struggle has divided them, confused them, driven them to extremes of desperation.

I think what all of this means is that we each have to do our own part, and become responsible, civic-minded citizens: we have to realize that we won't be happy unless we try to do our part. And if a small portion of us simply do our part, that will be enough. If even 1 percent of the people of this country could break out of the invisible chains, they could bring down this military-industrial complex - this tyranny of corporations, this plutocracy - overnight. That's all it would take: 1 percent of the people.

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
11.  Thanks amen1234
:hippie:
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 09:13 PM
Response to Original message
12. A GREAT American. A GREAT MAN!
What else do you call the Founder of the International Action Center and coalition signer of http://www.internationalanswer.org/">International ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and Racism)? Ramsey Clark is one of my heroes. Wish we had more men with that vision, integrity, and determination to make a change! ===

Check out all his Letters and Reports to the United Nations:
http://www.iacenter.org/rcun.htm

Biography here: http://i-p-o.org/Clark.htm

Drafter of the Articles of Impeachment against Bush:
http://www.votetoimpeach.org/


I LOVE THIS MAN!!!!!!

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

===========================
The International Action Center was founded in 1992. From the very first day, our underlying motivation has been the same: Against U.S. imperialism, for people's needs. We look towards a society free of war, racism, and unemployment; where sexism and the oppression of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and trans people are abolished; their jobs, education and health care are rights and not privileges.

We have led campaigns against the Pentagon wars and sanctions against Iraq, Cuba, and Yugoslavia. We have supported the Puerto Rican people in their fight to get the U.S. Navy out of Vieques. In every struggle, we solidarize ourselves with the most determined opponents of racism war, and colonialism.

In the U.S., the fight against racism, police brutality and the death penalty is paramount. We have played a leading people in the fight to free Mumia Abu-Jamal and spearheaded the opposition to Shaka Sankofa's execution.

We work to build links between activists of many different struggles and facing many forms of oppression. We take on our shoulder the task of building a giant wave of resistance in the United States against the generals and bankers who try to rule the world in our name.

Be a part of this challenge to the warmakers and corporate tycoons. \

MORE IAC PROJECTS

Distributing fact sheets and pamphlets exposing the hidden role of the Pentagon in Bosnia

Expansion of the Peoples Video Network. PVN produces and distributes educational videos on many topics including the movement to Free Mumia Abu-Jamal and to end the death penalty. PVN has local cable shows, national satellite broadcasts, a website, and netcasts.

Full rights for immigrants

Expose the CIA-Drug connection

Lesbian, Bi, Gay and Transgender rights

Support Affirmative Action

Defend women's rights

Free Leonard Peltier

Stop police brutality and neo-Nazi gangs

Real jobs at full pay instead of "workfare"

Stop attacks on public housing

Support for striking workers

Distributing electronic resource material and news of movement events on the Internet via this website and e-mailings


http://www.iacenter.org/
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. A GREAT American. A GREAT MAN!
Thanks Tinoire!

Any audio or video?
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Some Audio and Video
FORMER US ATTORNEY GENERAL RAMSEY CLARK AND INDEPENDENT FILMMAKER JON ALPERT DISCUSS IRAQ (13/9/2002) http://stream.realimpact.org/rihurl.ram?file=webactive/demnow/dn20020911.ra&start=26:19.5 (And tons of other good stuff at the main site: http://www.robert-fisk.com/other_audio2.htm )


9-11 SPECIAL: PATRIOTS FOR PEACE AND GLOBAL JUSTICE (with a.o. Ramsey Clark) (AUDIO FILE) http://stream.realimpact.org/rihurl.ram?file=webactive/demnow/dn20020911.ra


U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL RAMSEY CLARK VISITS THE IRAQI HOSPITAL WHERE CASUALTIES FROM A RECENT U.S. BOMBING RAID WERE TAKEN, AND DEBATES THE PENTAGON: http://stream.realimpact.org/rihurl.ram?file=webactive/demnow/dn20020827.ra&start=11:31.9


20/03/2002: Listen to a.o. James Woolsey (ex-boss CIA), Ramsey Clark, "should the US invade Iraq? a historic debate (RealPlayer Audio File) http://stream.realimpact.org/rihurl.ram?file=webactive/demnow/dn20020320.ra&start=6:44.0


(Video) Iraq: Genocide by Sanctions - Ramsey Clark (1997) (25min) http://www.freespeech.org/ramfiles/genocide.ram


Dennis Bernstein: introduction: interview with Ramsey Clark, just back from Iraq; Greg Palast on Hugo Chavez; Oklahoma bombing victim, Bud Clark, speaks out on the death penalty.. 250 SF garment workers win lawsuit for unpaid wages http://www.flashpoints.net/realaudio/fp20021009.ram


Ramsey Clark Says America Should Pay Full Tab for Rebuilding Iraq
article: http://www.crosswalk.com/news/1218063.html


: Excerpt from Ramsey Clark speech: U.S. Will Pay Price for Rule of the Rich (1998) http://www.addictedtowar.com/ClarkSpeech.html

Former US Security General Ramsey Clark Speaks out about the U.S. Government http://members.shaw.ca/freedomtwo/ramseyclark.wmv

Ramsey Clark - Regime Change begins at Home http://thunderbay.indymedia.org/uploads/ramsey28.ram

Yugoslavia: Worse than Cowardly, It is Murder: http://www.sinkers.org/kosovo-demoJun0599/washDCJun0599-07.wav




Statement from Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General, regarding the IRAQ SANCTIONS which are targeted and have killed over 1.5 inocent civilians: http://www.raisethefist.com/news/wire/9931amerikill.wav


Also EXCELLENT: The Fire This Time http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/iraqgenocide/TheFireThisTime.html

Tons more stuff here:http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/5-13-03/discussion.cgi.32.html

Have fun!!! :)
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. A ton!
Ya done good. I just got back from looking. No luck.

I'm out, got some listenin' to do.

:smoke:
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Lol
Must be the :smoke:

;)

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. He makes the most coherent case against the war that I've heard
Edited on Thu Oct-30-03 11:43 PM by bigtree
I'm listening to the debate with James Woolsey. Ramsey takes a shot at Woolsey's association with Shea and Gardner, who is a paid agent of the Iraqi National Congress Woolsey claims that he "sealed himself off financialy"

Ramsey fires him up: " That's not true. I know how business works! That's why they're there!"


Woolsley was also associated with the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq as an 'advisor'. The right-wing policy group, with the leading cast from the PNAC as its membership was doing all they could to draw us into war with Iraq before 9-11.

The CLI lobbied for the installation of the so-called Iraqi National Congress to replace the Hussein dictatorship. This group was the creation of the U.S. Congress which, following testimony from Chalabi, passed the Iraq Liberation Act in 1998, and sanctioned the new U.S. policy of regime change. Almost $100 million in taxpayer funds was provided to the group.

There's a conflict.
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loudnclear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
17. Should have been a nominee years ago.
The RWing effectively buried him. He is a great man.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Like they're trying to do as we speak
by discrediting International Action Center and its offshoot ANSWER
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. just like the DUers who buried the DC-protestors for the last few
days...they come from the same school that buries all good people...and some here tolerated the attacks on the DC anti-war protestors and even added to it...

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. . . . if a small portion of us simply do our part, that will be enough.
I turned the page on that DU battle. Too painfully similar to the debate outside of the Democratic safe-zone.

I've never seen any progressive struggle that didn't reach back and pull other struggles up along with their own. Sharing venues, sharing the spotlight, giving aid and comfort.

That's the best part about being a liberal. United we stand. Divided, they beat us in the head.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. I couldn't turn the page and watch less than well-intentioned people
vilify a great man and snare some good decent DUers into their hate. Those 2 days drained me but I thought it was worth it. There's a concerted effort coming from the Corporate elite and 2 right wing governments (ours is one of them of course) to discredit ANSWER and the IAC. It's unfortunate we can't put new posters on a probationary period and then put their continued membership up to a vote or something.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. We still have to persuade with our words. We shouldn't impose too much
It's good to let people flesh out these closet Republican notions they are holding in. Among friends.

I think all sides were heard in the 2 day flamebath. Including mine.
'nuf said.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-30-03 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
23. The Ramsey Clark Trio
Didn't they play "The In Crowd"?
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atyoshida Donating Member (6 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
24. Ramsey
Was Attorney General. His father was an Associate Justice. The group he hangs with now is mostly drawn from the Worker's World Party. I saw them, at a protest, chant, "2, 4, 6, 8, defend the Korean Worker's State."

They're an odd bunch, to say the least.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #24
31. Hi atyoshida!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
25. I love Ramsey Clark --
he has consistently and unambiguously championed progressive causes since the 60s. He and Noam Chomsky have been fighting the good fight forever it seems. His book, The Fire this Time, told the truth about the first Gulf war and the sanctions and actually was the tome that woke up this old radical to the mess my country was in and to my need to get active again. (So busy with children and school, didn't pay enough attention for a few years) -- but Clark's work jerked me back to reality. My kids are older and just come to the demonstrations and hand out leaflets, etc. with my husband and I. We figure that the family that demonstrates together, stays together.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Our kids come also
Hand out our free t-shirts etc. Brought their friends.

Another generation of activists. I can confidently say that the marches and the protests have changed their lives. The young man we took with us in October said it was the defining moment of his life. He's now studying psychology.

Who knows? I carry the weight of all of the protests with me every day. Ramsey has always impressed me with his ability to stretch himself for what he believes.

That's how I see him. A grown up who helped give the 14th and 15th amendments the force of an activist federal government; the guarantor and protector of my,our liberty. I lived '64 -'69 as a child in Washington, D.C. I know that my life would not be as full without his efforts in shepherding the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act through Congress. Maybe things would have changed without him- Don't count on it!

The rest of his work is just an incredible bonus. Look at the group of kids at the bottom of the photos I provided. The leader of that bunch pulled at visibly worn Ramsey aside and begged a picture; all the while the leader was telling Ramsey how the group had studied his works and how much they felt themselves in his debt. That's what brought the rare smile from Ramsey.

I think he's not well. I feel the urgency of his message. I hear the echo from my past protests. I am humbled by his committment. I am challenged to do more.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 02:03 AM
Response to Original message
29. This is the best one
U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL RAMSEY CLARK VISITS THE IRAQI HOSPITAL WHERE CASUALTIES FROM A RECENT U.S. BOMBING RAID WERE TAKEN, AND DEBATES THE PENTAGON: http://stream.realimpact.org/rihurl.ram?file=webactive/demnow/dn20020827.ra&start=11:31.9

Pentagon spooksman: "The Iraqis fire at our airplanes. We respond with precision strikes."

"We have no idea how many people we are killing over there."

Ramsey, on bombing before the war: "Not one U.S. plane has been hit. No fly zones are not authorized by the U.N. You don't have any right to kill an Iraqi soldier any more than you have any right to kill the women and children. These women and children aren't military targets. you can tell that by looking at them."

If we keep this up we won't have any friends left in the world."

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slaveplanet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:29 AM
Response to Original message
30. Here's what the right wing critics say
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 05:04 AM by slaveplanet
as other's in here have claimed to be the source of his marginalization-

You asked:// but I don't feel I really know everything about this great man.
I'm hungry for another view of this man, and would be most grateful for any bite. //

so here's a little hodgepodge:{note A-my opinion}

“Some of Clark’s current clients, including Shaykh ‘Umar’ Abd al-Rahman, the ‘blind Sheik,’ who was convicted and sentenced to a lengthy prison term for his involvement in helping to organize follow-up terrorist attacks in New York City after the first World Trade Center attack in 1993 are a far cry from Father Berrigan. Shaykh Abd al-Rahman, of course, deserves legal representation. What makes Clark’s approach noteworthy is that in the case of Abd al-Rahman, his approach is based more on putting the government on trial for its alleged misdeeds than actually proving the innocence of his clients. While completely ignoring Shaykh Abd al-Rahman’s pivotal role in the Egyptian-based mosque played in the first World Trade Center attack, Clark tried to portray the blind Shaykh as a brilliant Islamic scholar and religious thinker who was being persecuted simply as a result of anti-Muslim prejudice on the part of the American government. . . .” {see note A}

Clark’s next legal client was equally surprising. In 1989, he became Lyndon Larouche’s lead attorney in Larouche’s attempt to appeal his conviction on federal mail fraud charges. Larouche, who began his political career in the late 1940’s as a member of the Trotskyist Socialist Workers Party (SWP), had by the late 1970’s embraced the far right, anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial. . . .”

information about Clark’s behavior vis-à-vis key political assassinations.  Clark has helped to cover up the assassinations of John Kennedy, Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy.  Clark actively obstructed Jim Garrison’s investigation in New Orleans.  (The Assassination of JFK: Coincidence or Conspiracy?; Bernard J. Fensterwald; Copyright 1977 ; Zebra Books.)

He then dismissed the possibility of a conspiracy in the assassination of Martin Luther King before such an investigation could begin.  (Forgive My Grief, Volume III; by Penn Jones, Jr.; Copyright 1969 ; Privately Published.)  Clark behaved in similar fashion when RFK was assassinated two months later.


{Note A- my personal belief is that there were CIA elements working with the First WTC bombers,But the recruit whom drove the truck parked it in the wrong position,ignoring their handler's instructions,and resulting in a botched job. So Ramsey may not have been barking up the wrong tree in this instance.But blaming the government does not absolve complicity.Whether maybe this has anything to do with Clark's defense of Al-Rahman I'm not sure.}

Why the Right wing would accuse him of dismissing the possibility of conspiracy in the killings of left wing icons, is something I (and I suspect a minority of others in here) have yet to grasp.I will add I know next to nothing about Fensterwald or Penn Jones jr. or their political leanings, original source of the Al-Rahman & La Rouche assertions are from here:
http://slash.interactivist.net/analysis/01/12/03/1946241.shtml
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. I wonder at Ramsey's representation of these reprehensible men
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 12:04 PM by bigtree
But as I look at his life battles it is impossible for me to conclude that he didn't have the best of motives for the law and for the nation. I don't pretend to understand his actions in these sad people's regard.

I would offer some words he spoke in defense of Leonard Peltier:

"This is it, for better or worse, he said. Because whether it's evil or good, this is the empire. Our duty, all of us, is to see that it is just and good and it is imperative that we recognize the enormity of the crimes that those who came from Europe have committed against those who Will Rogers said were "at the dock to meet the Mayflower."

"And if we fail, who would want to be a part of what's left? Because it would be a genocidal society that had succeeded in its genocide, in the extermination of not just a peoples, but of right and decency and justice."

"These things are all interrelated. We should never forget Martin Luther King's heartbreaking words in 1967, when he came out against the war in Vietnam and he said, "The greatest purveyor of violence on earth is my own government."

I think I know where Ramsey is coming from. I trust him. I don't trust the government. I don't trust the government.


cont. on reply 35
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Rich Hunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. LaRouchies
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 12:09 PM by dymaxia
I don't trust the LaRouchies' own motives.

Lots of stuff here:

http://www.publiceye.org/rightwoo/Rwooz.htm
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. I don't support the political views or actions of La Rouche
I would defend his right to due process under the law.
I would defend him against governmental meddling and abuse.
I could also see myself campaigning furiously against him politically.
I don't see these as contradictions.
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slaveplanet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. well
//"These things are all interrelated. We should never forget Martin Luther King's heartbreaking words in 1967, when he came out against the war in Vietnam and he said, "The greatest purveyor of violence on earth is my own government." //

When Dr King said this , Mr. Clark WAS the government.If he truly felt this way, then why did he put the kabosh on any sort of conspiracy leads while he was in the position of Attorney General. Could it be this is where he formed his present view of the government and it's machinations rightorleft? Is it possible he wanted to do so but was thwarted from on high? Maybe , but we'll never know now will we.When he had real power to do something he did nothing. So if he wants to go around using the quotes of the honorable dr. King. He should use his power with ANSWER to place speakers there with the messages of dr. King, and do everything in his power to eliminate these radical voices whom marginalize the good people ANSWER has to offer.I suspect it'll be a long wait till that happens because by what I see, thats not his motivation.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. what a smear
Edited on Sat Nov-01-03 07:11 PM by bigtree
You take his activism and smear him with all of the things he was fighting against.

I reject your type of politics.

Here's Ramsey's record as attorney general:
http://i-p-o.org/Clark.htm

The Years at Justice: (Representative activity by type) In the field: Supervised federal presence at Ole Miss week following admission of James Meredith; surveyed all school districts in south desegregating under court order (1963); supervised federal enforcement of court order protecting march from Selma to Montgomery; headed Presidential task force to Watts following riots. In criminal law enforcement: set aside federal funds to finance creation of state criminal justice coordinating agencies; sought financing and professionalization for local police; supervised legislative proposal for and organization of federal Law Enforcement Assistance Administration; originated Strike Force concept in attack of Organized Crime; increased annual indictment rate of organized crime figures six fold; urged strict gun control helping secure first federal gun control law in over thirty years; reorganized and transferred federal narcotics enforcement creating Federal Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs. In Prisons: authorized first federal technical assistance to state and local prisons; proposed unified federal corrections merging prison and probation service; reorganized federal prisons to emphasize rehabilitation, early release, health, education, job training, community based corrections; opened first federal Halfway House; closed old prisons, opposed construction of new prisons; established first federal narcotics addict treatment unit. In civil rights: supervised drafting and executive role in passage of Voting Rights Act of 1965 and Civil Rights Act of 1968 containing the first federal open housing law; argued Johns v. Mayor for US in Supreme Court, first federal open housing case; authorized first northern school desegregation case; created massive program for employment and housing discrimination litigation; authorized prosecution of police in Algiers Motel killing, Orangeburg massacre (South Carolina State College) and police brutality at Chicago Democratic Convention. In civil liberties: supervised executive effort at bail reform; proposed prohibition of wiretapping and electronic surveillance; required voluntary disclosure of unlawful wiretapping by federal prosecutors in more than 50 cases; refused to use wiretap authority contained in Safe Streets Act of 1968; denounced shooting of looters by law enforcement, threatened prosecution; first Attorney General to propose abolition of the death penalty. In antitrust enforcement: filed record number of anti-merger cases (24 in 1968) ; opposed ITT acquisition of ABC network; Penn-Central and Atlantic Richfield-Sinclair mergers; sued all automobile manufacturers for anti-competition in computer industry. In judicial function: supervised executive effort to achieve federal jury selection reform; urged creation of Federal Judicial Center; sought expansion of Federal Criminal Justice Act and Neighborhood Legal Services program; defended controversial Supreme Court decisions such as Miranda v. Arizona.

more:

Since 1968: (Representative activity by type) Lawyer: General counsel of Alaska Federation of Natives securing largest settlement of native land claims in history. Lawyer for: Craig Morgan, President of Kent State student government indicted following Kent State tragedy; Father Philip Berrigan in Harrisburg trial; Ruchell Magee in Marin Country Courthouse murder-kidnapping indictment; Charles Pernasalice in Attica prison prosecutions. Argued, or briefed, first Freedom of Information Act case, various First Amendment, Peace Movement, civil rights and criminal cases in U.S. Supreme Court. Worked on numerous commissions: Chairman, Right to Vote Task Force, issuing report THAT ALL MAY VOTE urging Universal Voter Enrollment by the government; Chairman of Citizens Inquiry on Parole and Criminal Justice, Inc. reporting on parole in New York. Individually and on behalf of various organizations, sought to end political repression, violation of human rights, torture and violence in international area by seeking protection for Soviet Jewry, abuse of prisoners in Brazil, Greece, Ireland, Spain and elsewhere; traveled to South Africa to examine and protest apartheid; North Vietnam to examine American bombing, visit U.S. POW's. Teacher: legal seminars on civil rights planning, law as an effective instrument for social change: Howard University School of Law, Brooklyn Law School. Writer: Crime in America; The Role of the Supreme Court with Senator Sam J. Ervin, Jr.; contributions to collected works on crime control, peace, civil rights, education, civil liberties, violence, etc.

You should be ashamed for smearing such a man.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
34. The Fire This Time
his book about war crimes in the first Gulf War, is an extremely well argued case. It's a devastating and painful read.
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