My Bush-worshipping Republican brother hung up on me

[janekat]

I was going on a rant to him about Bush, Iraq, the CIA Leak, Joseph Wilson, etc. (hadn't even gotten to Cheney and Halliburton yet). My brother just stuttered and hemmed and hawed and couldn't even spit anything out. He was at a total loss (usually he would be cockily zinging them back at me).

Of course my brother being a Fox News Watcher, reader of the Republican hometown newspaper used to revere Rush Limbaugh (watches MSNBC, Hardball every once in a while) thought I was partly just making stuff up.

I told him that if he watched Fox News he would never hear any of this stuff because Fox News is just a total joke. He told me that he hardly ever watched Fox News anymore - only Neil Cavuto and that he watches Hardball (He likes Chris Matthews). He sounded ashamed that he even WATCHED Fox AT ALL.

This is someone who used to have his tv permanently set to Fox News - never missed O'Reilly and Hannity and Colmes...

I then started talking about how Rumsfeld said one thing about Iraq, Bush another and Powell something totally different. THIS was apparently too much for him and he said "You sound like a paranoid nut" and hung up on me.

THIS is very unusual because my brother is a very mild-mannered guy who has never hung up on me (very rarely even yells at anyone). I called him back and he conceded that he always cringed when Bush was on TV because Bush always sounded so horrible, that he didn't seem like he knew what he was talking about.

He then admitted that Bush had not really won the debates in 2000 and he had thought that Bush sounded pretty lame back then even but that Gore had sounded so obnoxious that he couldn't stomach Gore. He then went on for quite a few minutes about how really, really bad Bush always sounded - just stopped short of calling him "stupid". I had to laugh and said "and you call me the Bush hater."

THEN he admitted that yes things were pretty screwed up in Iraq, that all of the lies about Iraq were pretty bad - repeated the usual (Bush is a good guy but....). That maybe it was a mistake to go to Iraq - but that the jury was still out on that.

He went on for quite some time about how screwed up everything was. He then said something like that if he saw someone else to vote for... and then trailed off.

People - this is someone who just 1 year ago absolutely WORSHIPPED the ground Bush walked on.

Then we spoke further.... he thought that maybe that there could have been something to the leak story for a while - but that he hadn't heard anything about it lately so that the story must not have legs. When I pointed out that John Ashcroft was doing the investigation and probably wouldn't find out anything he said "Well someone will find out something if there's something to it." When I pointed out that the entire country was being run by Republicans and that they wouldn't do an investigation I could tell he thought I was being a nut again - so I let it drop.

He said "Well I'll tell you one thing if I found out that this stuff that you're saying is true - I'd be just as mad as you." He still sounded pretty leery about everything, however.

I told him I would send him some articles and he said ok - he would try to get an open mind.

I'm pretty surprised at the way my brother reacted to all this. He's done about a 120 degree turnaround. I wouldn't say it's a 180 degree and certainly not a 360 degree - BUT a 120.

I'll tell you one thing - if people do find out that Bush is *#@! it will NOT be pretty. I think they will probably be angry at Bush AND at the Dems.

[flamingyouth]

1. That * is sure a uniter, not a divider!

Wow, I've never seen people more, um, "united" than they have been lately. Even the employees in my store are getting into it with customers. I think of it as the "uncivil" war.

[metisnation]

3. bring em on

I will fight these nazi punks in the streets if I have to!

:dem:

[diplomats]

2. Thanks for posting this

sounds like your brother is gradually awakening to what we've known for years.

[janekat]

6. I know - I think he might mull this over and come to some more conclusions

n/t

[Selwynn]

4. This is not the only story -- the revolution is starting!

One of my best friends has been staunch conservative his whole life. The funny thing is, so many of the posistions of the "far right" are complete opposite of the kind person that he actually is. But it was how he was rasied I guess..

In our four year friendship, I've never been shy about saying exactly what I think and because I do my dead level best to truly informed I can always point out things he never thought of or debunk untruths he's picked up from elsewhere...

Recently he confided in me that he never used to question anything, but in listening to me he's be rethinking a lot of things. He even asked me some great and honest questions and we talked for nearly four hours one night just having an open, honest discussion and respectful debate - him being more conservative and me being a complete progressive liberal. It was lovely.

I believe that this is how we will win the country back. Not by going around hating everyone who disagrees with his, but by slowly and surely winning them over and convincing them with truly, and clear, calm rational truth.

[Bronco69]

5. Looks like there may be some hope

for your brother. Keep fighting the good fight and eventually he might come around. My brother, on the other hand, is hopelessly devoted to the republicans.

[janekat]

8. Mine was too. We're from a family where almost everyone is a rabid

Republican on both sides. I'm in shock that my brother is even THIS lukewarm about Bush.

When we went to Kennebunkport and Bush was in town my brother was just totally ga-ga. I kidded him that the secret service was going to cart him off for being a stalker!

[Bronco69]

14. LOL!!

[blm]

7. Wilson and the leak story is our Holy Grail at this point.

It's the most obviously damning point against them that the general public can understand.

[Solomon]

9. Unfortunately Bush can do anything he wants without penalty as long as

he's not caught fingering an intern in the white house.

[janekat]

10. Yep - a lot of them just chalk the Iraq lies up to that "Well they lied

but Bush meant well."

Of course - who knows how they may feel about THAT in a few months...

[janekat]

13. Yep - that leak story turned another rabid Bush supporter that I know

to the brink...

[Solomon]

11. Kick. I love these stories more than anything.

:bounce:

[JackSwift]

12. The Repukes had better get those Diebold machines

installed all over right quick, or they are finished.

[lostnfound]

15. Great story. Here's another tactic I've been using..

Once a week or so, ask middle-of-the-roaders what they've heard lately that pis*ed them off. Try very hard to simply listen -- not answer, augment, add to it, or criticize. A very gentle approach. My theory is that simply giving them the experience of saying what's on their minds OUT LOUD without a negative repercussion will help them realize it's OKAY to say what they are thinking.

And just once, maybe, get one of your right-wing friends in a quiet place and ask him to seriously explain what it is that he likes about Bush, and really listen. Ask questions to get him to talk more so that you can really understand what it is that he values about Bush/Repubs, but not questions that challenge. My theory is that we on the Left need to better understand the depth of the Fear factor and the Intolerance-for-Ambiguity that drives these folks. Along with whatever other good and bad things that are drawing them rightward. Also I think it will make such friends feel just a little bit obligated to actually listen to you some time when you are explaining to them reality from your point of view. At which time, less is probably more.

[janekat]

21. Good approach. I have to admit I gave my brother a "crash course"

and shocked the hell out of him. I think if it's a family member that might work sometimes but if you did that to a "stranger" they'd just run the other way...

Sometimes what I'll do is start a conversation about something and see where it takes me. I was talking to one girl who didn't seem to care about Iraq, etc. but when I started talking to her about 9/11 she just took the ball and ran with it. Turns out she loves conspiracies (believes in UFOs) and wanted to hear about all of the 9/11 goings ons. I gave her a few 9/11 websites to look at.

NOW she's probably telling everyone she knows about the 9/11 stuff....

[Samantha]

16. Perhaps he is ashamed to have been fooled by Bush*

and that makes it difficult to face you, his sister, who was not fooled. Consider yourself fortunate that you have only one brother of a conservative bent; I have two. There has been no progress on either front. My one brother in Miami is married to a Cuban woman. While Bush* implies he has been appointed by God to lead at this time, my brother in Miami would swear to you Bush* walks on water. My other brother has an important Government position and has lived all other the world. In other words, he's not led a sheltered life. Additionally, he's very active in his church, so he's not without morals or a conscience. He defends every unConstitutional act Bush* performs and trashes Al Gore at every opportunity.

The irony of all this is, I believe, when one looks at the record, Bush* has been arrested for driving under the influence of alcohol, deceived the investors of Harkins, avoided his National Guard service, manipulated the budget numbers of Texas (crunched the deficits overnight to reflect a surplus for purposes of enhancing his campaign in 2000), refused to pardon Carla Faye Tucker and spare her from the death penalty, stole a national election, threatened the wrong people at the wrong time and provoked attacks upon Americans and American interests, refused to warn the American people of increased terrorist threats pre-911 -- but went on a month-long vacation where his personal flank could be better protected, lied to the American people on too many fronts to mention here, not the least of which is the war on Iraq, is in bed with the dirtiest man in politics (Karl Rove), abolished the U.S. policy on banning assassination of heads of state, launched a foreign policy advocating the use of pre-emptive war, YET WE DEMS WORRY WHAT SKELTONS WILL BE FOUND IN THE CLOSETS OF OUR DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES....

Whatever might be in any of the candidates' closets, what could possibly come close to the record of George W. Bush*? What, tell me, what? If you don't know the answer, please ask your brother. I intend to ask both of mine.

[janekat]

19. Oh no! The Miami Cubans are as Republican as you can get

n/t

[qwertyMike]

17. "If I saw someone else to vote for"

None of the 9 will attract the repub. mentality.

The Repbs have cornered God, Terra, He-men, Guns, Abortion blah blah blah
Peeps aren't really interested enough in Wilsom/Plame, Halliburton, WMD lies and all that we hold dear. That's the Murkin Way.

[janekat]

18. My brother isn't into any of that - so there might be hope

He's pro-abortion, anti-guns, he's a "sensitive guy" who loves to cook. I had a gay friend who asked him out becausu he thought my brother was gay. My sister-in-law sounds like a Democrat - believes in all of the Democratic values. You'd think they'd be Democrats right? WRONG.

They're both Republican because their parents were and everyone else they grew up with was (affluent area). They were raised (as I was) to think that Democrats were the worst sort of people. There's a lot of covert and subtle racism also. I really think that a lot of Republicanism is just downright racism.

My parents are also pro-abortion and not at all religious. BUT they're country club WASPS. It's all about the money...

Luckily, when I got older I realized that this was all just complete bullshit and couldn't get out of Republicanville fast enough.

[RetroLounge]

20. Hey Janekat, one brother at a time, slow but sure.

I have 2 brothers who both think the same way, and I've been slowly chipping away at them, seeing the cracks in their republican veneer.

It's been easier when I ask them how their 401k's are doing, and if they are better off now than 4 years ago.

I think my younger brother is almost embarrassed to speak about Bush* and can only mutter something about it being better than Clinton and Monica. So then I ask him how and why, and he just stammers some Rush-induced crap about Gore would have been worse, but can't tell me how.

My older brother is tougher. He's a one issue kinda guy, an avis hunter/fisher/smowmobile/boater etc, and he said he wouldn't vote for Gore because he's gonna take away the right to snowmobile in National Parks. Of course, my brother has NEVER gone to a national park, and it wouldn't affect him, but he seems to think Gore wanted to take away his guns/truck/baot/snowmobile etc.

I think, like your brother, the hard core repubs that I know are all coming around, but a lot still think Party before Country, and will vote for Bush* regardless.

But we can hope...

Thanks for the post. THink I'll call my brothers :)

[bleedingheart]

22. Don't embarrass him too much....

i find that the people who voted for this dipshit are pretty embarrassed by him now...I don't like to rub it in too much... I like to steer the argument so that they look like the ones who have had the revelation that he is a jerk....

[Guaranteed]

24. Right, crack them but then EMBRACE...show them the way. nt

[glarius]

23. What bothers me MORE THAN ANYTHING about the situation with Bush

in the U.S.A. is that the MYTH has been planted in the brains of decent American citizens that George W. Bush is a "decent, straight talking, trustworthy, honest, truth-telling man" and therefore they have put their trust in him and he keeps their loyalty through all his unbelievably destructive blunders....like the attack on Iraq and his alienation of world leaders.....Daily the myth is repeated on TV so that it is accepted by even many Democrats, it seems to me.....The TRUTH, that he is untrustworthy, dishonest and a liar has to be gotten across to the public!!!....I'm watching all this from another country, but that's how it looks to me.:hi:

[diamond14]

26. just spent two weeks in rural Colorado (real bush* country) and

everybody that I spoke with, a small town wedding, the local bar at happy hour, the breakfast cafe, the beauty parlor, several dinners on outdoor decks, restaurants, and local homes...they all said the same thing...bush* FOOLED us...and they were real pissed about that...bush* FOOLED us....nobody plans to vote for him again...some said they would never vote democrat, but in the same sentence, said they would never ever vote for bush* because he FOOLED us (I didn't want to mention that ONLY bush* is running for reTHUGlican, but just enjoyed the ambiance of the moment)...

these people are loosing their jobs, their retirements, their homes, their sons/daughters who are in Iraq....yes, the message seems to be sinking in....the tables are turning...bush* ship is sinking...

unless something BIG changes our current economic mess, the current healthcare crisis, the quagmire in Iraq...there is a chance to re-defeat bush* in 2004....but everyone on DU needs to work on it..it's going to take a lot of work...and there is money for certain jobs, careers can be made on this upcoming campaign, computer experts are always needed, campaigns have money...

[glarius]

28. My lord I hope you're right!

I'm always reading on DU these postings of people saying how their friends or relatives have turned against Bush and then I hear the poll numbers on TV....He should be at much lower numbers than they are reporting if this is all true....I find it kind of confusing but I hope you are correct....Not only America, but the world could not take 4 more years of him.

[kodi]

25. you should thank the lord he's adopted.

.

[janekat]

31. LOL! In my family they all sigh and wonder what went wrong with me...

When I was 8, I set my grandmother straight at a big family function when she used the "N" word. All my relatives were stunned into silence for several minutes. It's been downhill ever since... I don't know where it even came from. Maybe I was the one who was adopted.

I think what happened is that I got my mitts on a book of George Bernard Shaw plays - was absolutely enthralled and temporarily turned into a Socialist for a few years. So people - if you want to really get to someone - just leave a volume of George Bernard Shaw plays laying around. It worked for me...

[janekat]

27. Ya know what - I think Tweety might have something to do with turning

my brother around!!!! Isn't THAT scary. My brother loves Tweety. He must have caught Hardball a few times when Tweety was on a rant about Iraq and Bush. I'm NOT kidding.

I told my brother that I was going to send him the transcript from yesterday's show - where Tweety went on and on about Bush and Iraq. When I told him that Bush and Co. had slapped down Tweety - my brother was interested.

I actually think that Tweety's schizo act - swinging back and forth - might attract some Pubs and draw them in. They think that he's a good guy when they hear him waxing eloquent about Reagan THEN BAM!!! He sucker punches them with a rant about how Bush is like Ted Baxter or that Cheney is really in charge. Now if we can keep Tweety from totally turning on us Dems - that could be a plan.

[sendero]

29. One heart, one mind...

... at a time. Good work.

A couple weeks ago a neighbor down the street invited us over for pizza (myself, wife, and 1 son). She and I had had a brief conversation a week prior where I indicated what I thought of Rush and Laura Schlessinger. She disagreed. I resolved to not bring the matter up again, I value her friendship.

But, almost as soon as I got there she shoved the new O-Really book in my face. I told her he was looking out for number one, and lied a lot. She quipped her disagreement, and we let it drop. I hoped for the night but soon she was rehashing Rush and defending the war.

The 'debate' got pretty acrimonious pretty quickly. I'm not a person who can easily hold his emotions in check. She would throw out easily refuted arguments, and I would vehemently refute them. I basically told her she hadn't a clue what was really happening becuase she got all her info from Fox News. She did not like that. We went on and on at high volume for about 15 minutes. My wife was getting annoyed. The kids didn't like it either. Every time I would try to end it she'd come back with more nonsense.

During the course of the argument she said something like "you sound just like my sister, she says all of those things". Later, I felt that because of that I had sown the seeds of doubt. Who knows.

We had a pleasant remainder of evening, and she later even hugged me and said "you stand up for what you believe and have passion, good for you, I respect that but I disagree with you - and I don't want any of this to mess up our friendship".

We've visited a couple times since and have avoided the subject, and frankly I will not bring it up again. But I can't help but feel like this.... she is not dumb and she is a well-meaning person. I'd trust her with my kids, and have. Why does she believe all this crap? Because she has never even heard the other side of the story.

That is the problem we have to deal with.

[Hippo_Tron]

30. Fair and Balanced, I don't know if the better word is Irony or Bullshit...

[Ilsa]

32. I think you handled it well.

It sounds like you have given him some wiggle room. Sometimes I think wingnuts are not in denial, they are just too proud to admit they're wrong and that they've seen the light, and it isn't a halo around Dumbya's head.

Baby steps. Encouragement.

[Nlighten1]

33. I don't even talk to my wingnut brother anymore.

It is a beautiful thing though.

[bywho4who]

34. Sheeple!

I hate to say it but your brother is one of many SHEEPLE who are under the terror spell.:think: Tell him to stop watching mainstream media.