What's wrong with the northamerican soldiers?

[Dirk39]

Hello from Germany,
I did just see an interview with one of germans best middle-east experts. One schiite leader told him, that the Iraqis were not against the american soldiers right from the start. But now, all of them just hate them. There's nothing but ignorance, arrogance, brutality. The only thing these people are able to do is breaking doors and shooting people.
Asked, why the Iraqis accept the British soldiers much more, he replied: they are civilized.
GB was an empire before. The british soldiers even had lessons before, how to treat these people, all of them, up to the lowest range did learn a bit of the arabian language before. The pictures and scenes we can watch here in the german TV, how U.S. soldiers behave, are just horrible. Did these people ever visit a school in their live, did they learn how to speak before they learned how to kill.
Whenever I see Iraqis with duct tape and a plastic back above their head with a number upon it, I just feel hate.
Even the americans, who support or supported that war: what kind of sense does this make.
Dirk

[maggrwaggr]

1. gee, Dirk, we're not seeing any of that TV here.

would sure love to, though.

our country is now behind a curtain quite similar to the "iron curtain" that divided your country during the cold war.

If you can post these images to the internet somehow, we'd love to see them.

Can you at least tell us more about what you're seeing?

[dutchdemocrat]

21. Here... American 'Liberation' of Iraq.

WAENING. DO NOT CLICK ON THE LINK IF YOU ARE UPSET EASILY BY IMAGES OF DEATH ANS VIOLENCE.

This may be controversial but slideshow of images from Iraq taken by a variety of photojournalists enrages me. Numbers of dead Iraqis are guestimated at around 30,000. But the US military are not tracking the dead. So who really knows?

I am not flogging gore here... I am linking to an antiwar website that is showing what really happens when you invade a country and kill people. These are not images of statues toppling, or flags wrapped around Iraqis in joy. These are the images the will never show you on TV or in print.

It any Admins want to erase go ahead... But I would find that censorship as I am giving fair warning here.

But I am posting this and asking the fellow DU'ers to change threads if they don't feel like being visually screamed at.

If you don't want to become enraged or get angrier than you already are, hit your back button or close the window and go find greener grass.

This what happens when a sick group of people in America choose to invade another country no matter what the consequences are, and lying about it all only to enrich themselves and their friends who put them there.

When are we going to evolve as a human species and quit killing each other like this? I hope the Internet will help us all grow.

You know how you felt when the towers came down? Imagine how they are feeling all over the Arab world watching this?

http://www.einswine.com/atrocities/iraq/?pic=0

[Karenina]

33. Hallo America!

This Nachricht from Dirk39 is something NO ONE wants to deal with, but it will have to be dealt with sooner or later. American soldiers have been placed in a position to protect *corporate interests in Iraq. Lots are catching on or smelling and feeling something rotten or just too stressed by the daily routine to even think straight (if they were ever educated to do so in the first place).

The result is what your white supremacists always projected when they expressed their convoluted visions of "N***ers runnin' wild in the streets." American troops are being incredibly misused and abused in Iraq. Their own goverment is fucking them up the ass right left and center. They were told the road home was through Baghdad. They are now dehydrated, underfed, improperly protected, go without access to family and friends, psychically and psychologically maimed by what they've seen and been forced to do, committing suicide, going AWOL, hanging "tough" while being POISONED, getting shot at randomly and those who have a shred of humanity in them are SNAPPING. Meanwhile, being ordered to go protect Halliburton's financial interests

American troops ARE running wild in the streets of Iraq. They are terrorizing innocents, shooting first and asking questions later, breaking down doors (even when offered entry) humiliating citizens, destroying property, stealing assets, committing cultural crimes beyond measure and...

YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR IT???? Yes we understand your *corporate controlled media will NEVER show the caskets returning or how those formerly living troops got there, BUT YOU DON'T WANT TO EVEN READ WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON? LOCK THIS THREAD?

Dirk39 is trying to give you a window to see what the rest of the world sees. Excuse me, he's one of US.

[fujiyama]

2. Great question...

because this goes back to a lack of education regarding foreign cultures and religions in the US. Actually Col. Hackworth (I think he was colonel) has commented on this in the various interviews he has given. American soldiers in contrast to British soldiers are not given enough trained regarding language and cultural customs.

American soldiers, like the rest of the American population are not given any education in different cultures. We see similar problems in those nations we have troops stationed such as Japan and South Korea.

The British, for better or worse, have learned to be good international administrators because of their long history of colonialism. The US may also be an imperialist power, but definetely not in the same sense as Great Britain.

[onebigbadwulf]

4. it's true

Soldiers aren't given ANY education. Nor are they willing to receive education What can we expect but ogrish babaric behavior.

[Tinoire]

3. Combine the natural American conviction

that we are superior to everyone because the world revolves around us who are so good and pure

and

a total ignorance of world culture

and

total insensitivity to different norms

and what do you get

nu, was du hast gesehen. It's totally embarrassing. We really are embarrassed you know!

[Zorra]

5. I think, when soldiers face

constant threat, and see their comrades get killed or wounded day in and day out, I think it makes their hearts get hard, and they begin to hate anyone or anything associated with the enemy. Think about yourself in that position, and you see your friends get their heads blown off or their legs amputated. And the people all hate you and yell at you and want you to leave because you are occupying their country. After a while you are bound to go a little insane. Remember, many of those soldiers think that they are doing a good thing for the Iraqi people by occupying their country. They think they are bringing democracy to Iraq. Because that is what their Resident told them they were doing, setting the Iraqis free.

And the Iraqis are trying to kill them, and their friends, every day, because of it.

Maybe the Iraqis have to deal with a lot more Americans than they do British. I don't know what the ratio of American Soldiers to British soldiers is, but I am willing to bet it's at least 5 to 1.

[iangb]

6. Rules of Engagement...

US ROE allow more freedom of action in an engagement than the Brit's (and Aussies).

Australian SAS troops and FA18 pilots in Iraq had their orders from Centcom vetted by a military lawyer before complying (or not as was the case for some pilots)

US ROE's (which are classified) appear to be of the 'shoot first, ask questions afterward' variety. British and Australian forces ROE's comply with all of the protocols of the Geneva Convention, which prohibit engaging targets which could cause civilian casualties.....unless under attack from that target and unable to disengage. The US is not a signatory to those protocols.

[interceptor]

9. ROE

Hullo, navy officer here. Thought I'd stop lurking on this one. You've got it the other way around. Ours are pretty tight and they get briefed everyday to every kid out there. The Brits and Aussies are pretty wild comparatively. (Remember, they're getting beer rations :) This is often taken into account tactically. Other countries in general are the cowboys. When we were enforcing sanctions they were the guys riding up close to Iranian waters and pulling off the wild stunts to catch smugglers. We were always in the backfield because our conservative ROE and orders kept us much further out of danger. (It gave me lots of time to say, "uh, why am I here?")

Regional ROE's are yes, classified so we can't talk specifics as to what it would take to get someone to pull the trigger, but they're really mostly common sense and based on "the inherent right to self defense" and what we call the "rules of deadly force." (Does the other guy have intent, ability, and opportunity, basically.) My computer is spazzing or I'd post a good link here. Check Google for "secdef" and "standing rules of engagement." They all start with those and work up based on what's going on. But every day a team of US JAG's creates them and they get signed off by the regional commander, in this case CENTCOM. I have no idea how the Australians and British make theirs, but in this case our ROE is in effect for all players since CENTCOM is running the show. No coalition aircraft refused tasking for non-safety reasons. Maybe you're thinking of those Israeli pilots that refused to bomb the Palestinians into submission anymore?

Geneva won't let you target civilians directly, but there's nothing in the world that'll stop collateral damage from hurting people. What are you speaking of specifically?

Anyway, my 2 cents, but I had to check in on this one. If someone has more experience with ROE and is O-4 or senior, please weigh in :D

[Resistance Is Futile]

13. Laws of war

One of the Geneva conventions imposes limits on attacks which are likely to result in damage or death to civilian property or lives. The use of force must be proportionate and the military benefit must be greater than the cost to any civlians likely to be effected. E.g., you can take out a tank even if there's a civilian standing beside it but dropping an apartment building because there's one sniper on the roof is supposed to be a no-no. This is obviously mostly relevant to attacking land targets rather than naval or air warfare.

[rman]

17. still, the Brits manage to cause less collateral damage

then US soldiers, in the same circumstances.

[iangb]

23. Hi interceptor....

ex RAN here.

Nope.......Aussie FA 18 pilots refused to attack an Iraqi target when being called in by US ground forces........it was big news hereabouts.

From Defence (Aus )briefing 23 March: http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2003/iraq-030323-australia01.htm
<snip>Whilst conducting DCA, the aircraft were rerolled for a strike mission and they were allocated a target. However, the crew chose not to complete the mission because they could not positively identify the target.

The crew’s decision reflect the ADF’s strong commitment to the laws of armed conflict and support to the Governments targeting policy right down to the lowest level.



As to the Centcom orders, our blokes operate under different ROE's and HAVE to have their missions checked legally before proceeding:

story http://abc.net.au/am/content/2003/s810237.htm

[newyawker99]

25. Hi interceptor!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[BlueCollar]

26. Welcome

and thanks for your post.

I'm an ex airdale so it's lways good to see a fellow sailor's post.

You're in a tough situation, in a theatre of operations with shifting dynamics. Many of us opposed this "war" for many different reasons.

I believe that the vast majority of our military personnel are honourable and decent individuals who have no desire to inflict casualties unless they are absoloutely unavoidable.

I was never an O but my $.02 from AMS2.

[sleipnir]

7. Yep, not the smartest kids

Most of the military is made up of kids who barely got out of high school and decided not to go to college because it's too expensive in America or they didn't have the grades. They haven't had the opportunity to experience other cultures or people and the armed forces certainly isn't going to supply that training any time soon. Basically, we've sent some of the lowest intellectually capable Americans to fight. I'm not ragging on the armed forces, but High School senior "Jim Smith" with a SAT of 1420 isn't going to sign up to join the Marines. It's usually the kid who hasn't managed to flunk out or didn't have rich parents to buy his way into college. Simply put, most of the Americans over there are not the cream of the crop. Don't get me wrong, I respect them for the decisions and their desire to honestly help serve our country, but if you're intellectually gifted, you're probably not on the ground fighting in Iraq.

[interceptor]

10. "Yep, not the smartest kids"

Some of my sailors were not so bright. Believe me, I had some real dim bulbs. But all of them worked harder than the majority of people I knew in college, and in some jobs like fire control technician, they were far smarter than most of the people in college. And I guarantee you, its not the really dumb ones you have to worry about, cause in general a dumb one will follow orders, including ROE. Its the smart ones who'll find new and improved ways to get in trouble! You'd be surprised with the all volunteer force who's in today, they're actually pretty good on average. But when one idiot makes the news, its "all sailors/soldiers/marines" suck in this giant knee jerk reaction. Just once I'd like to see someone get caught doing something moronic and have everybody in their company be guilty by association :) Republicans are too easy, I mean like GE or something! I'd like it if for once, everybody pointed at somebody in a Domino's delivery shirt or something besides us.

Anyway, I agree with the other person, this thread should be locked out. Its pretty groundless from the start and insulting to the poor bastards on the ground.

[Bombtrack]

8. This thread should be locked

are soldiers are good people and your post is completly offensive to anyone who isn't a hard-core anti-military and or anti-american loon.

Some soldiers of every nationality in almost every war act inapropriatly and some of ours might have, but it is not the rule or even close to it.

[Resistance Is Futile]

15. Offending the troops

No one has a right not to be offended.

There's also no 'might' about misconduct by Army/USMC forces on the ground in Iraq. Undue harassment, theft, destruction of property without cause, extrajudicial killings and collective punishment have come up more than enough to make it clear that there is a serious command problem above and beyond merely a few bad apples. The least the people who are committing these abuses deserve is to be offended.

[dutchdemocrat]

18. So you are telling Me...

http://www.nrc.nl/images/bush,7.jpg So you are telling me... "Bombtrack This thread should be locked"
in a rather simplistic Dubya sound-byte-like fashion that anyone who feels similar to Dirk is hard-core anti military or an anti-American Loon? Gee, you sound more like Chimpface with his 'with us or against us' philosophy. I suppose the German media (therefore de facto, most of the European media) are all frothing anti-military, anti-American loonies as well.

Have you been pigging out of too many Freedom fries? Or did you recently partake in some Patriot-Act-fueled French wine bottle smashing block party?

Look Bombtrack (nice moniker), here's my two bits and this is coming from someone who has grown up on both sides of the pond, as a Canadian and a Netherlander.

---------------


*NOTE - Canada vis-vis Jean Chretien, a man of principal, does not support the war in Iraq and is fighting in Afghanistan (you know... that place where that guy who allegedly masterminded the trashing of the world trade center is probably hiding).


*NOTE - Meanwhile, Holland is supporting the invasion of Iraq, with its lapdog right wing Christian party led by a Harry Potter look-a-like.


------------ OK, so it's not all black and white in terms of Europe and North America is it? Let's get to the point here.

1. It seems you have no idea how slanted the American media is and what you see as opposed to the multitude of opinions that are available in Europe (including the American hawk media in the form of CNN) from the BBC (yes it is available over most of Europe via cable), to national and regional views of the situation in Iraq. Broadcasters in Europe are not afraid to use footage and material from Arab media (Like Al Jazeera, who offices the Americans have 'accidently' bombed in both Afghanistan and Iraq) as well as their own correspondents that don't necessarily follow the US-UK agenda. Americans, with 400 channels on the tube these days cannot even watch Canada's CBC which is often critical and offers objective reportage on Iraq. "Who fucking cares what the Canadian's think anyways," right?

I would agree that soldier's from many countries have and still do commit war crimes but I cannot agree that US soldiers have a 'get out of jail card free' if they violate the Geneva Convention with war crimes and are free to circumvent the ICC. The US government can't even seem to follow the rules with its concentration camp at Gitmo, which DOES not meet the international rules of law. Well who cares about that... half the countries in the world have signed economically forced agreements with Bushco to circumvent the new International Criminal Court in the case of war crimes http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=13055. America is up to its armpits in conflict around the world for good reasons and I won't put on a tin foil hat when I say military industrial complex. The Bush family has been making money by fueling war since WW1, not just Prescott Bush group hugging the Nazis for cash in WW2.
---------------------


*NOTE - Samuel Prescott Bush (1863 October 4 Brick Church NJ - 1948 February 8 Columbus OH) was the father of Senator Prescott Bush, grandfather of George H. W. Bush and greatgrandfather George W. Bush.
In the spring of 1918, Bush became chief of the Ordnance, Small Arms and Ammunition Section of the War Industries Board of Bernard Baruch and Clarence Dillon, with national responsibility for government assistance to and relations with Remington and other weapons companies. (Senate hearings in 1934 by the Nye committee attacked the ‘Merchants of Death’—war profiteers such as Remington Arms and the British Vickers company—whose salesmen had manipulated many nations into war and then supplied weapons to all sides.) Unfortunately most of the records and correspondence of Bush's arms-related section of the government have been burned ‘to save space’ in the National Archives.

------------------

What the fuck do you expect people around the world to think when you read links like that? What the fuck do you expect people around the world to think when they see footage of US soldiers firing indiscriminately into crowds of demonstrators, killing and maiming, with creeks of blood awash on the streets of Baghdad? You didn't see that on CNN did you? They won't even show your own men and women being killed by pissed-off Iraqis (no, they are not Al Qaeda... they are in Afghanistan remember?)who don't like being occupied. Your honorable men and women are pawns for oil, geopolitical strategy, arms sales. That's fucked up.

I am not saying all American soldiers are trigger happy, but when the huge majority of military personnel in Iraq is American, has a government that basically says, "Don't worry, you will never be prosecuted for war crimes in the international arena", and the main stoolie in Paul Bremer doesn't even feel the number of Iraqis being killed even merits a simple body count - one can ascertain that indiscriminate killings of Iraqis by young, scared kids who have probably seen too many reruns of Blackhawk Down are products of a violent culture in the form of mainstream media in the united states.

Many soldiers seem to just want to get the fuck out of there, according to interviews we see in Europe with US soldiers.

No one is defendable with such a lame statement that 'soldiers are good people' and 'everyone else does it too'?

This is not My Lai perhaps, this is your lie.

I am seeing developments leading to more like Mogadishu than Saigon at this point. Well unlike Somalia, looks like those fine young US men and women fighting for a lie won't have the UN to give them a hand this time.

It's schoolyard tactics. When you punch someone in the face (like the US did to France and Germany - but not Russia and China who held parallel views) they tend not to help you in the event when you get punched in the face. I think, In fact, deep down in the European collective psyche there is a feeling of them being the smaller but older and wiser brother syndrome - one that looks at its younger, bigger, dumber, thug-like, bullyish, arrogant teenage brother like they are blindfolded and playing pinata with a big stick swinging at the world.

[LiviaOlivia]

11. What's wrong......

Whenever I see pictures of starving Jews in concentration camps and I.D. numbers tattoed on their arms, I just feel hate.

[neebob]

12. Don't blame the soldiers

They're mostly kids who joined the army to get money for college and/or job skills. They were sent to war on a false premise and ended up stuck in a situation they weren't prepared for. Don't ask what's wrong with them; ask what's wrong with their commanders and specifically their commander in chief.

[Julien Sorel]

14. I agree with you that our society is ultimately

responsible for sending them over there, but it is also responsible for making them what they are. Americans are a people made arrogant by wealth, power, ignorance, and insecurity (both phyisical and psychological insecurity -- deep in the American zeitgeist is always the feeling of being culturally inferior to other peoples, especially Europeans who, after all, basically sent most of us here as refuse.). These soldiers reflect all those things. I also think it's wrong to absolve the soldiers of their individual responsibility for their actions. Not all of them behave like jackasses -- they do have the option to think for themselves, and make proper decisions.

[T Bone]

16. Our soldiers are in a very bad situation

It is sad when they do over-step the rules of engagement, or show insensitivity to civilians ina hostile theater.

Who are the bastards who trumped up this war and put them in this position ? We know who they are.

[Resistance Is Futile]

19. Sorry, but

There's no more of an excuse for a 20-something in the armed forces to crush an Iraqi taxi than there is an excuse for a 20-something in the US to murder someone over a slice of pizza. There's no denying that circumstances change people but that only goes so far and at the end of the day, people are either decent human beings or they're not. A badly-led operation is not a license for young people with weapons to pillage and murder.

[dutchdemocrat]

20. bump

Euro View... deserves a little kick. Outside perspective is always good.

[neebob]

27. Yeah, but I don't think

most of them just decide to do something like run over a car with a tank on the spur of the moment. I don't like it, either, and I personally think the military is a haven for psychopaths, but I still think the vast majority are scared kids following bad orders.

[Classical_Liberal]

22. We don't teach geography very well in this country

and W is commander and chief. His people and most repukes are hostile to training our soldiers for peacekeeping. They are good guys that have been sent to do a job they weren't trained for. Nuff said.

[Kamika]

24. Ill be honest

We dont really get educated too much on other countries in high school here.

Thats no reason to hate us though.

I think the soldiers do what they do as safety precausion which I think is good.

I dont support the occupation BUT since we are there nevertheless we can do a REAL occupation and not a half assed one.


We were too nice in the beginning which led to looting and later US/Iraqui deaths and alot of rapes etc. I hope we learnt our lesson now and weve started to have curfews etc etc.

[neebob]

28. Why lock this thread?

I think it's beyond time we had some discussion about Iraq that goes deeper than whether we should be there or not. It's also good, I think, to talk about what actually happens on the ground. As the mother of a 14-year-old, I'm freaking out at the prospect of another 4 years of Bushco and the draft that will surely accompany it. I'd like to hear more public discussion about what the troops are doing - keeping in mind they're ordered to do it, and refusing to follow orders brings a trip to jail and a record that poses a serious obstacle to the development of another career - and how completely wrong it is for a bunch of rich old bastards to use other people's kids in this fashion.

I'm surprised but glad this thread is still here.

[mmonk]

29. They are mostly scared because they are attacked daily

while some Iraqis cheer. Noone but them know what they are going through. Does that justify brutality? No. But the soldiers are humans under great stress. They don't know who is an enemy and who is not.

[9215]

30. They think their god is bigger than the Iraqi's god

This really is a crusade to conquer not to liberate. The Americans that act like this are simply treating the Iraqis as subjects that will not yield.

[Resistance Is Futile]

32. Close

Crusade to conquor is fundamentally obvious but that nutcase general is really in the minority among the armed forces.

[9215]

35. If he is where are all

the "official" dissenting voices condemning what he said? Boykin was not even sanctioned much less fired for his outrageous statement.

To be honest I think there are mixed reasons for the zeal of the US troops. They feel this war is "personal"--"they" attacked us. This is a prevalent attitude. Even though there has been no established link between Saddamn Hussein and 9/11 70% of the Americans polled think there is. This belief is probably stronger among the Armed forces and it has been reinforced with rhetoric from officialdom.

In this sense Bush has performed a public relations coup. He has succeeded in fooling a majority of the people most of the time to get his war on. It has led to a disaster. A cornerstone of a functioning democracy is an informed public, we no longer have that when so many can get such a warped view of reality.

What I fear is a military failure in Iraq followed by a backlash against "traitors"/dissenters in the US as an ignorant population feels even more threatened than before. Hopefully the US will deal with the situation like it did Vietnam, but the American public is much more brainwashed now than then, there is a vein of religious fervor in the US carefully nursed along by a small corporate/conservative theocratic mindset, grounded in PNAC, bent on turning the Constitution on its ear. This, IMHO, is very similar to the Nazi party in Germany before Naziism swept the country. A big difference though is that there is a vociferous segmnet of the population that is exposing PNACs imperatives and, even among the corporate elite some disenchantment with the way Bushism is going.


The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth becomes the greatest enemy of the State.
-Dr. Joseph M. Goebbels, Hitler's Propaganda Minister

[Bandit]

31. It isn't just soldiers

Most Americans are gross, barbaric and ignorant. They have a superiority complex that is huge and love violence more than any other people on earth. Our soldiers just reflect the general population. I am embarrassed to be an American in todays world. Just a couple of years ago we were approaching enlightenment and had great respect from around the world but that went away in a hurry. We try to gain respect through fear and it just won't work. We may get them to do what we want by brute force but never because they honor and respect us. Thanks Bush*

[Karenina]

34. Something is SERIOUSLY wrong

but we all know the fish rots from the head down...