Disheartened at Michael Moore's live appearance tonight

[Paragon]

Mike was talking about the victims of September 11th, which disturbed a young girl a few rows behind me. I could tell she was upset because she was the only person talking during the monologue. I couldn't hear exactly what she was saying, except for this:

"They died for their country, you ASS!"

My heart sank. There are still people in this country who think that the 2,750+ people in the airplanes and buildings died sacrificing themselves. As if the battle lines were invisibly being drawn as they flew toward the Towers, as if they died going down clutching an American flag and giving their Commander-in-Chief a final tragic salute.

They were murdered -- killed, you might say, "for no good reason"...as if there ever is a good reason to kill. Perhaps trying to find meaning in the meaningless is how some victims' families choose to cope. It just strikes me as terribly sad and ironic that their meaningless murders have been used (indirectly and directly) to go murder more people. It's gone from an understandable desire for revenge to justifying the invasion and toppling of other nations.

I'm disgusted. I see this attitude all the time on TV or on the internet, but being faced with it in person...was something else. There's still so long to go.

[KC21304]

1. I guess they did die for their country.

As you said, they died so their president could have an excuse to carry out his handlers' orders. So sad.

[aquart]

44. WHICH country?

It was the WORLD Trade Center, not the US Trade Center.

[annak110]

117. And, the people who died were from 62 different countries,

so, as you say WHICH country?

[jiacinto]

2. Moore's comments about Todd Beamer and the UA Flight 93

were off base. Moore is an idiot for insulting the victims of 9/11. His comments about the race of the people on UA Flight #93 were disgusting.

Frankly those people who died on 9/11 were victims and did die for their country. Why Moore and the far left go out of their way to insult these Americans, I really don't know.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

4. They didn't die for their country

They died because they were attacked by terrorists. How can you say they died for their country? What's your rationale?

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Liberal Veteran]

57. They were murdered at work going about their normal routine...

...they didn't die for their country.

That's like me getting hit by a car in that is in a high speed chase claiming that "I died trying to stop the chase".

Tragedy does not equal heroism.

I don't hear anyone claiming that the 16 people who died in fires in California were heroes to the environmental movement.

[MrPrax]

115. I'll play devil's advocate

People who were murdered on 911 were targeted because they were American and worked and supported American symbols of power in the world.

Now if you want to go that extra and say 'they died' for their country because of their citizenship, then you really are accepting the rationale and ideology of the 'terrorists' as your point of view.

So, if you allow the 'criminals' to call the frame of political debate, then you are as mad as they are.

[GalleryGod]

69. I'm Not FAR Left; I'm A DNC Democrat! I Think Mrs. Beamer is Media Whore &

a TOTAL ,100%, Karl Rove Kreation! Since my daughter goes to school near there, I visted that "crash" site....I drove the 4 miles away where the engine landed-in-the-lake...:puke:
"Let's Roll",my middled aged, white guy, ass!

PREDICTION : LISA BEAMER is the GOP Candidate to RUN against DEM. REP. Rush Holt in 2004. Suck on this,Lisa!:dem:

[rman]

76. many are far left relative to jiacinto

-

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Freddie Stubbs]

108. And I am sure that the Democratic nominee for President

will agree with that assessment and use it as a campaign issue to attack the Republicans.

[DemVet]

143. Let's hope not.

This is still a highly charged emotional issue. Attacking Lisa Beamer will be viewed with scorn by the American public. We don't need that.

[okieinpain]

119. well you have to hand it to the repugs they have no shame,

and that's why we are all doing the bushie shuffle.

[Q]

84. Far left, my ass...

..I've watched Moore's speeches. He's done nothing but DEFEND the families of the victims of 9-11. He looks 'far left' to you because he questions Bush's* responses and motives.

[AP]

102. It's easy to sloganeer, but why don't you explain what Moore said so we...

...can decide for ourselves.

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

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[BiggJawn]

110. They are Murder victims. Nothing more.

If that's "disrespect", then make the most of it Carlos.

"9/11 is sacred to those people"
How? I thought they were dead?

Who is more disrespectful? Those of us who choose NOT to "Deify" or cannonize the murder victims of 11 Sept. (9-11 is what you call to make a fireman come) or the Lisa Beamers and BFEE and the people who make and sell all those disgusting "9-11" chotchkis and fiber-optic angels and magical teddy bears?

[annak110]

118. It is the people who run our country who have shown

disrespect toward those who died, they have used the deaths to rally the gullable jiacinto and they have failed to help their surviving families. I just read that 40 people have been cut from the rolls of the victims because no one can prove that they actually died there although their families say that their members are missing and that they were there on 9/11. I guess that means these 40 families are cut out of any possibility of compensation for the loses of their loved ones.

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pruner]

5. what did he say about Todd Beamer and flight #93?

n/t

[jiacinto]

11. Here is the article

http://nuance.dhs.org/lbo-talk/0301/1246.html

What we did not expect was to feel so enraged at one point that we
almost walked out. It was when Moore went into a rant about how the
passengers on the planes on 11 September were scaredy-cats because
they were mostly white. If the passengers had included black men, he
claimed, those killers, with their puny bodies and unimpressive small
knives, would have been crushed by the dudes, who as we all know take
no disrespect from anybody. God save us from such stupid white men,
especially now, when in the US and the UK, black people's lives are
being ripped to shreds by drugs, lawlessness, fear and frightful
violence plus the endless circle of racism, exclusion and
incarceration. This is not awesome, Mr Moore; it is a calamity, for
descendants of slaves unimaginably more so.
-----------------------------------------

Unfortunately the rest of the article is only available from a pay site.

[Classical_Liberal]

68. I followed the link and it wasn't about Moore's appearance.

It was about an interview with a british journalist and the source appears to be newsmax. That makes the likelyhood of deliberate misinterpretation of what was said a 90% probability.

nuff said!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

80. That Is An Interesting Hypothesis

What if the planes were carrying some real "badasses"?

Would they have reacted differently?


That's an interesting question.....

[Terwilliger]

113. so, we have a racist author criticizing Moore...no wonder some like it

:nuke:

[carrowsboy]

36. I wish Beamer had survived

That way we would not be subjected to that whoring widow of his trademarking every phony slogan and getting her face on every TV in the country.

[sandnsea]

9. Flight 93, yes

Firefighters and first responders, yes. The others, I think they were victims of an attack, they didn't die for their country. I think in order to actually die for your country, you have to make a choice to put your life on the line.

However, I do agree with you that the left does seem to go out of its way to be insulting far too often. Michael Moore sometimes does it as well.

[soleft]

78. I don't think going out of its way to be insulting

is a quality the far left has exclusive possession of. Anyone has the potential to insult someone, regardless of what group they belong to. Leftists, centrists, right wing fundamentalists, they call all hurl it with the best of them.

[maveric]

30. Exactly how did they die for their country?

Were they protecting our country? No they werent.They were people like you and me that got up one morning and went to work or boarded a flight to the west coast. They were murdered by fanatics. They werent soldiers defending our land and attacking an enemy. They were innocent victims. These people had no idea earlier that morning what was about to happen to them. Did they all love their country? We'll never know that. They werent all americans either.
I fail to see how they died for their country.

[jiacinto]

31. I fail to see why you must disrespect the 9/11 victims

nt

[maveric]

37. I did not disrespect them. How did I do that?

By not agreeing with you that they were heroes who died for their country?
They were just like me and you going about their own business. And they were victims of murder. No heroics there. No patriotism from them. Its just the tags that have been attached to them by those who either want to exploit them or identify themselves as "true patriots" by calling them heroes who died for their country.
Kind of like bu$h.

[aquart]

45. Oh, it's you. Figures.

2,000 odd people sat down at their desks with their coffee and bagels and were murdered. They were not saluting a flag at the time and they damn well didn't want to die.

It is truly disrespectful to make purposeful martyrs of them. They did not die for their country. They died because a spoiled rich boy had enough money to buy their deaths for his personal satisfaction. And another spoiled rich boy considered it the luckiest day of his life.

Don't you dare use them with your phony reverence. Next you'll be selling dust in vials as holy relics.

[VolcanoJen]

50. Spoiled Rich Boys.

That was very well-put, aquart. I've never really thought of it in those terms before. Thank you for that.

[WilliamPitt]

59. I'm in awe

Probably written 500,000 words since 9.11.

"It is truly disrespectful to make purposeful martyrs of them. They did not die for their country. They died because a spoiled rich boy had enough money to buy their deaths for his personal satisfaction. And another spoiled rich boy considered it the luckiest day of his life."

Sums it up cold x, on the spot.

[RetroLounge]

92. Wow...

"It is truly disrespectful to make purposeful martyrs of them. They did not die for their country. They died because a spoiled rich boy had enough money to buy their deaths for his personal satisfaction. And another spoiled rich boy considered it the luckiest day of his life."

Again, wow. Very well put...

[seaglass]

94. That's really sick.

Consider the firefighters and police that went into those buildings to save people's lives. No, they didn't die defending their country but they did sacrifice their lives for others. I think they deserve a little respect.

[VermontDem2004]

112. How did the poster you were responding too disrespect them?

:shrug:

[seaglass]

133. By turning their deaths into a political point.

By not recognizing that they went into those towers to save lives and that they paid the ultimate price for their fellow human beings. It trivializes what they did.

[eleny]

95. Very well said

Thanks for your posting. You spoke for me, too. Surely, there was sacrifice and heroism on the part of the firemen and others who were trying to get people out of the buildings. But the fact is, the people working in the buildings were trying to get the heck *out*.

[DemNoir]

116. Bravo

May I nominate this for post of the day?

[ProfessorGAC]

87. You Need A Dictionary, Carlos

Man, you have this bug up your nose about disrepect, don't you? I don't think you know what the word means, however.

Look it up, please.
The Professor

[RetroLounge]

91. I fail to see how dying at work makes them heroes.

Does calling them heroes make YOU feel better.

Is that what this is about?

They didn't die for their country.

They didn't die for anything.

They were murdered.

[Beaker]

97. How is it "disrespctful" to say that they didn't die "for their country"?

How could anyone make the case that they were "heroes", or that they "died for their country"?

The victims of 9/11 WERE NOT casualties of an act of War...they were victims of a crime.

[JanMichael]

105. Saying they were murder victims is disrespecting them??!!

Do you read what you write here at all Carlos?

Your reply here makes ZERO sense.

[drdigi420]

103. not to mention....

a LOT of the people in the WTC were bankers and brokers....bush supporters....thieves.....pushing bad stocks.

I do feel for the families of the victims, but to say they died for their country is pretty stupid. Sounds like a freeper response, all emotion, no logic.

[Pontus]

48. Not all leftist people are idiots like Moore is.

The insulting of victims of this terrorist attack is inexcusible and Moore should have apologized long ago.

[rman]

75. not all leftists are rightists like some on this board

how did Moore insult the victims?

[Spoonman]

98. Your right

Moore is nothing more than a self serving fat piece of shit.
He tugs at the heart strings of those who desperately want change in this country.
"Those" just happen to be the Democrats, and he will say and do anything to stir the emotions of those Democrats to the point that they forget the most basic principles of a decent society. Respect for the dead, truth, morals and honesty.

Moore is NOT one of us, his agenda is to make money, and so long as we allow him to remain in the lime light he will continue to lie, distort and mislead to rake in even more millions of dollars.

Do some research, how much of his millions has he donated to the DNC or any other worthwhile cause?

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Spoonman]

126. Get a life?

Yes, that's a great rebuttle for discussing issues.
So I'll use it.

If you waste your time listening to that lying self serving fat piece of shit, it is you that needs to get a life. As well as a mind of your own.

On edit - spoonfed? yea that would discribe Moore fans!

[RetroLounge]

89. Gee, now there's a surprise comment from Carlos

not...

They Died for their Country

Support the troops

blah blah blah

[RetroLounge]

93. "Frankly those people who died on 9/11...did die for their country"

Really.

And did the British citizens in the WTC die for THEIR country?

And did the Canadian citizens in the WTC die for THEIR country?

And did the French citizens in the WTC die for THEIR country?

And did the Australian citizens in the WTC die for THEIR country?

And did the Spanish citizens in the WTC die for THEIR country?

etc.

or did they all die just for the Good Old US of A?

Please, Carlos, enlighten me...

[slor]

3. Paragon...

Are you a fellow Cincinnatian?

[Paragon]

8. Afraid so.

;-)

[RandomKoolzip]

6. It's the "martyrdom effect."

Martyrdom often cuts away reason.


When a tragedy happens to a person or a group of people, in retrospect what they want to remember about those victims. Case in point: My father was junkie who died of cirrhosis of the liver and ofetn acted terribly and neglected my needs as a child because of his drug habit. After he died, my mother refused to hear a bad word about him. If I point out some terrible thing he did, she gets really angry. He was a saint to her and she's still in mourning ten years after he died. However, I'd rather remember him as a person who embodied both bad and good qualities. After all, he was just human, like everyone...but in my mother's eyes he has taken on a saintly glow after his death. She won't even concede that he was a junkie.

I think this kinda the same thing that happened to people after 9/11; their sense of judgement got a little screwy because of a major tragedy. Around March of 2002 I was getiing really tired of hearing about "heroes" invlolved in 9/11, as if the firefighters who lost their lives weren't just flesh and blood people, but somehow superhuman, blameless, holy creatures. We shouldn't forget that those who died in the attacks on the WTC were just there to do their jobs. There weren't the frontline of a new war. They didn't die "for their country," they died because a plane crashed into a building.

[Fescue4u]

13. Im sorry, the Firefighters WERE hero's

And I bet you wouldnt waste a minute a minute calling one of those heros if your house catches on fire.

No one has said they are superhuman. In fact, its there flesh and blood and sacrifice that makes them heros.

[RandomKoolzip]

16. You misinterpreted what I said.

Yep, I really hate firefighters! Those assholes! C'mon, do you really think that's what I was trying to say? Please. Again, this is not a black and white issue. What the firefighters on 9/11 tried to do was indeed noble and incredibly brave. I respect that. What I do not respect was the media's shoving down our throats the story of the "sacrifice" over and over; couching the story of the firefighters' attempt at rescuing those in the Towers in terminology designed to dredge up nigh-religious images of "dying for our country (read 'sins')" and intimations of beatification. I resent the media manipulating people's emotions like that.

[Fescue4u]

41. well thats fair enough

While do I maintain that the firefighters were heros that day, there is no doubt that the media has rode on their coat tails with their own brand of sensationalism.

[dudeness]

60. If i may interject

perhaps i had better qualify myself at this point..I am a professional firefighter (17 years) however, this is in no way makes my views more valid than any others that appear in this discussion..9/11 was every firefighters nightmare..but from material i have seen and read it seems, imho..that many of my comrades died needlessly..many factors contributed to this outcome..too many to mention here..but one which i believe is apparent and by no means a criticism..is a hero mentality that is prevalent in the US..no doubt this is fostered in the media and for most part and has certain benefits for those that serve the country and public..if this event had taken place outside of the US i feel certain not so many firefighters, police, EMTs would have perished in the line of duty..

[calimary]

85. This is a great post, too, just like Aquart's brief-but-astute summation.

It struck a cord with me, RandomKoolzip. MY mother remained in total denial about MY father, too. About the only thing my dad did NOT die of was cirrhosis of the liver. He wasn't a drinker. But he was a hellraiser and neglected and cuckolded my mother for years, in front of all their friends, shamelessly, with no regard for how it might appear or how she might feel or whether the other women involved were aware they were being used, too. But, dammit if my mother didn't resolutely live in her bubble til the bitter end. She'd sometimes rail away about him. Usually using me as a verbal punching bag because she had HUGE frustrations that she never confronted properly or got help with (who, HER - need counseling or intervention, or maybe, divorce for the sake of her own self-respect?). No, she maintained the illusion, especially when I had the temerity to question his behavior. And I'd point out to her repeatedly - HEY! Why are you attacking me for this? I'm sticking up for YOU! I'm taking YOUR SIDE!!!! There was no logic.

There IS no logic. Brutal reality - like 9/11 - seems just a little too hard to face rationally and realistically. Look at all the people still in denial about it, and about that RIDICULOUS theory that "they hate us for our freedoms." I got into it with a video store counter person the other day, who professed to be a hawk who'd go over there in a heartbeat to bomb 'em all to smithereens because of 9/11. I pointed out, trying to remain calm, that the Iraqis had NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11. Saddam had NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11. It's been proven. Didn't make the slightest bit of difference. You can feed some of these hopeless cases reason til you're blue in the face, and they'll refuse to see it. Pat answers, cliches, self-deception, and knee-jerk (emphasis on the word/concept JERK!) reactions seem to be the magic Prosac feel-better quick-fix of the day.

I'm still amazed about my mother. How she could take all that abuse and humiliation from her husband for DECADES and only show her anger against a questioning daughter who had nothing to do with any of it.

Displaced anger. Self-delusion. Total disconnect with reality. I guess some people just can't face facts. The facts are sometimes just too overwhelmingly ugly.

[CWebster]

90. it's true

"Humankind cannot stand too much reality!"

-TS Elliot

The one thing which always struck me about Chomsky was his super-human ability to see the truth and carry the burden of reality.

[Fescue4u]

10. Well Moore -IS- an ass

And his comments on 9/11 victims disgust me.

I do agree they didnt die for this country, sadly they died unwillingly for Islam.

Is he still making those horses ass comments about how the people on the aircraft were cowards and that black men would have been braver???

Moore is a complex guy. About 25% of what he says is spot on and inspiring, another 25% is made up, another 25% entertaining, and another 25% is horseshit speak.

[jiacinto]

12. And people think he should be the spokesman of the left

He is disgusting. Clearly Moore has no respect for America or its values.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

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[jiacinto]

24. Oh

are you now accusing me of being a freeper? That's against the rules, you know.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

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[jiacinto]

26. He was calling for me to be tombstoned

And I resent that you just called me an idiot.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

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[haymaker]

39. Let's see if I can say this without being deleted.

Wwwwwwhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Paragon]

34. Deleted message

Thought I'd beat the mods to the punch. He's "differently abled", not a "troll". No calling out other DUers!

[annak110]

121. Which is against the rules, accusing someone after much

evidence or actually being a freeper?

[annak110]

120. Too bad the "message was removed" you mods are really

delicate. Why don't you remove some of jiacinto's nonsense?

[zeemike]

23. I wonder if America has any values left.

It seems to me we have squandered them by declaring everyone that had anything to do with 9-11 a hero. Every solder and sailor a hero, every fireman and cop a hero. We have become a nation of either heroes or hero worshipers.
Beware when heroism becomes a cult. Every fascist and nationalist has their cult of heroes to present as justification for there philosophy.
I long for the good old days when the real heroes would have nothing to do with being called that. In those days we had real values not the phony past up crap we have now.

[BiggJawn]

114. Horst Wessel was a "Hero", too.

To further illuminate yout hypothesis about Fascists having their "cult of heros"

Wessel was a Nazi thug who supposedely was killed in his bed by "Communists". Turned out the truth was he was killed in a brawl fighting over a whore. Hitler deified him, naming army divisions and the training bargue that became "USCGS Eagle" after him.

That's not to compare murder victims with victims of brawls, but it does illustrate the need to look at your "hero's' feet to check for clay...

Bring it on, Carlos....

[Pastiche423]

17. "they died unwillingly for Islam"?

Whaaaaaaa?

Says who?

[Fescue4u]

40. The people that killed them.

Thats who.

[Pastiche423]

49. Someone confessed?

Gotta link?

When did that happen?

[VolcanoJen]

52. I'm anxious for that link, too.

Saying that the 9/11 victims "died for Islam" is quite an insult to Islam, and religion everywhere.

[Fescue4u]

63. Here ya go

Im not insulting Islam...Im insulting those who represent Islam in their murder sprees.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/11/11/wbin11.xml

[Fescue4u]

62. You must have missed the news

You see 19 Muslims, attacked America and killed 3,000 people. They did this because they believed that Islam commanded them to.

It happened on 9/11/01.

You asked for a link, how about 53,000,000 links?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=September+11

Here the one where Osama admits his guilt

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/11/11/wbin11.xml

[Pastiche423]

65. Not one single person

has come forward and stated that they saw 19 muslims do diddly squat. There has been no evidence brought forth that 19 muslims attacked the U.S. on September 11, 2001.

If you do have such evidence, please post it here.

[Fescue4u]

66. Well considering that they died...

and are now ashes its tough for them to come forward.

However the calls home as 19 muslims were cutting the throats of innocent women are evidence enough.

As is this confession

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/11/11/wbin11.xml

[Pastiche423]

70. That tape and others

have been debunked. Neither the skiny, nor the fat Osama took responsibility for the attacks.

You say the calls home prove there were 19 muslims? How did the passengers on all four planes contact each other on the four planes to come up w/19 muslims. How would they even know the other passengers and their tele numbers?

There are no photos
There are no names on the passenger manifests for 19 muslims
There are no phone records of calls being made from the four planes

Why do you believe whistle ass et al's lies?

[Fescue4u]

71. Why do you defend terrorist?

Come on, your theories sound like Freeper Paranoia.

And stop with the straw men. you know damn well the people on the planes didnt call EACH OTHER.

And yes there were photos and there were names on manifests.

And yes, these evil murders were done to futher the "religion of peace"

[Pastiche423]

73. Who's defending anyone?

I am only seeking proof of your statements.

My question about the 19 muslims was not a strawman. YOU said it is known that there were 19 muslims because of calls home. How did "they" know there were 19 muslims to call home about? Where did the information come from and how?

Where are the photos and why have they not been shown to the people? Where did "they" get the photos? Do you have a link to the photos?

You are incorrect about the manifests. That information has been out for over two years.

You have bought the whistle ass lies, hook, line and sinker.

How very, very sad.

[Fescue4u]

100. You cant argue with conspiracist

Any evidence contrary to the conspiracy is part of the conspiracy.


your're right. Its was proably an alien conspiracy that crashed that planes..

Oh wait, I forgot, they were not planes at all, but missiles.

[Pastiche423]

125. You are the one

that cannot provide evidence of your statements!

I presented no conspiracies. I only asked questions and asked YOU to post links to what you are claiming as truth. And whistle ass truth at that.

[Fescue4u]

140. I provided evidence

Which you dismiss as part of the great conspiracy.

It all goes back to the faked moon landings you know.

Better check your window, I think a black helicopter is hovering neaby.

[Pastiche423]

144. You most certainly did not

provide me w/evidence.

The only link you provided, was to a tape that was debunked over a year ago.

Hey, if it makes you feel safe to believe whistle ass' lies, by all means.

[dutchdemocrat]

74. I believe they found Atta's passport

Lying on the ground two blocks from ground zero after the impact. How convenient.

A number of the 19 mugs they miraculously put up as the perps are still breathing and alive and well in their home countries.

The vilification of Muslims is part of the PNAC agenda. I am sorry to see some DU'ers taking the bait.

[JackRiddler]

77. Here is the official confession...

It's a load of bull, since KSM and Binalshibh may not have even been caught (the photos of them do not match older photos, there were reports KSM was killed on S11, 2002), but anyway...

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/27/international/europe/27SPIEGEL.html?pagewanted=print&position=

October 27, 2003
Operation Holy Tuesday
By GEORG MASCOLO and HOLGER STARK, Der Spiegel
The two chief planners of September 11th have confessed, and the records of their interrogations can now be used to paint a precise picture of the events leading up to the terrorist attack. Their statements also reveal how Osama Bin Laden personally selected the suicide pilots from Hamburg.
The prisoner no longer recalls precisely when he heard these words and in which of the many hideouts in the mountains bordering Afghanistan and Pakistan. However, this single sentence uttered by Osama Bin Laden has burned itself into his memory, this decisive sentence, spoken in a soft and silky voice, that would ultimately become a death sentence for about 3,000 people: "Why do you use an ax when you can use a bulldozer?"
It was this sentence that marked the beginning of operation "Holy Tuesday," as the men of the Al Qaeda terrorist network called the terrorist attack in which, on September 11, 2001, two passenger jets crashed into the towers of the World Trade Center in New York and one into the Pentagon in Washington, while a fourth exploded in a field near Shanksville, Pennsylvania.

And here is the unofficial dismantling of the official confession:

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/KUP310A.html

There's Something About Omar:
Truth, Lies, and The Legend of 9/11
by Chaim Kupferberg
www.globalresearch.ca , 21  October 2003

[Pontus]

51. Osama, I guess.

He carried out the attack to hit what he considers a Jewish/Christian alliance that must be broken so his followers can someday rule the world. That's just how twisted Osama and many like him really are.

[Starfire_Sangraal]

53. USAma, you mean...

Or Tim Ozzman, his CIA codename....

[Pastiche423]

54. Osama has never confessed

Furthermore, there has been no proof that he did it.

Where are you getting your information?

[Fescue4u]

64. Yes he did

In one of his Videos.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/11/11/wbin11.xml

Granted its not a signed confession type by an officer and signed by Osama.

[qwertyMike]

107. I often wondered that

I saw the tape of Osama discussing the WTC collapse etc and he had the look and sound of someone who seemed really surprised (and happy of course) with the whole episode. As an engineer he even mentioned something about the crappy construction of the WTC buildings.


Another thing I wondered:
24 hrs after the attack they had mugshots and complete details of all 19 hijackers on CNN. 24 hrs. All neatly presented. Dates of birth and so on. Like a really neat presentation. They knew which planes each was on and so on. I remember thinking that surely this info. would take weeks to compile.
24 hours!!!!!!!!
How did they know there were 19, not 15 or 23??

Verrrrrrrrrrrrrrry neat & tidy I thought, and given the efficiency of the security services up to that time, very suspicious.

Comments?

[fujiyama]

56. That's the way I see him...

I find him somewhat entertaining at times. Many times he's way off base. His Nader campaigning turned me off, but I'm willing to forgive him for that.

Still, he shouldn't have touched Flight 93. I can't really tell if his comments about the passengers regarding their race was sarcastic or not (I sure hope it was), because it wasn't really very funny anyways.

I myself do think (if the "official" story is true) what the passengers did on that flight was heroic. To actually gang up on the terrorists to save the capital from having another plane crash into is pretty damn heroic if you ask me. It could also be argued that they died for their country. Still I think this point is hard to make, because they knew they were most likely going to die anyways at that point because of recieved the phone calls regarding the other planes that had already crashed.

Still, I have to argue most of these people were MURDERED in cold blood. They were victims of a heinous act of of terror perpotrated by a band of religious fanatics. They weren't fighting for a cause. They just were going about their daily lives and what disgusts me most about this is the way the right and this admin. have taken advantage of those events for their own selfish political interests. I'm honestly sueprised more people aren't disgusted by his crass politicization and expoloitation of 9/11.

[Terwilliger]

81. well, of course *YOU* don't like him

what's new about that?

[Fescue4u]

99. nuttin honey

I've never liked people who act like horses asses.

[Township75]

96. I agree with one thing you said...

Is he still making those horses ass comments about how the people on the aircraft were cowards and that black men would have been braver???

I recall him saying if it were the lower class they would have fought back, but since it was the priveledged class on those planes, they just put up with it, because they are so use to being served rather than doing stuff for themselves...

Well, if that is true, why does Moore have to stick up for the poor and minorities? They are use to having to do stuff by themselves, so why do they need a spokesman like Moore to fight for them? They should not have needed him to make Roger & Me, because they would be fighting the fight themselves.

To me, those words and his actions contradict each other, and I doubt he even realizes it.

[Lisa]

14. could it be that he's being sarcastic?

Seems to me that Moore was referring more to racial attitudes than to the situation on Flight 93. Something along the lines of black people having such a fearsome reputation for violence, thanks to stereotyping, that a lot of non-blacks tend to suspect them of being liable to do just about anything? And that if that stereotype were true, any black people on that airplane would have massacred the hijackers (who, being mostly Arab, would be classifed as "white").

But of course, that didn't happen. There were black people on that plane, and they were just as vulnerable as white people. (The co-pilot was an African-American combat veteran -- he was married to a girl I knew from elementary school -- and she reported that he would regularly get "racially profiled" and pulled over by the cops because he drove a sports car...)

p.s. I think it's possible to be a) very brave, and b) a victim, at the same time.
I know a number of firefighters, and none of them would stay in a building that they knew was going
to collapse ... making the calculated choice to try to save someone because you have the training
and equipment for it, and staying when you know that both you and the trapped people will die, are
not the same thing. The crew chief I work with (he's a part-timer, and we share offices in his other job)
says that taking unnecessary risks is dangerous for your colleagues, and suicide isn't in the plan.

[Paragon]

18. You're asking lurkers to think on more than one level

And thus, you're asking too much. Thanks for being the voice of reason here.

[Lisa]

19. who, me?

Just repeating what the fire guy told me!

And it wasn't too long ago that Asian people were suspected of being vicious too ... so I've learned about irony, for sure.

[Fescue4u]

43. very very possible he's being sarcastic

But it still in extremely poor taste to talk sarcastically about people who died in such a horrific manner.

Moore's a smart guy and he should know better.

[Lisa]

122. he's a satirist ...

Moore's commented on many historical events including the Holocaust, the anthrax murders, the Civil War, KKK lynchings, and World War II. Al Franken and countless other writers have made humorous observations about the Vietnam War. All of these things were horrific (and arguably, given how many people died, no matter how far in the past, it's still in poor taste to make jokes). But they become part of our culture, and get talked about -- sometimes irreverently -- and sure, there are social norms about how much time should elapse, and who gets to make the jokes. For example, there are things which a WTC rescuer or a Flight 93 family member could say without arousing comment, since it's a type of coping mechanism ... Moore's lived in NYC for years now, and possibly he and other New Yorkers who saw these things close-up have a different perspective than those of us in other places.

Everybody's got different levels of tolerance -- that's just how things are. I caught a colleague making a joke about the Montreal Massacre last year (more than 5 years ago, and only 14 people died, and still I called him on it because it bothered me ... then apologized later). The same person was shocked when I made a sarcastic comment about the Japanese internment (which my family was affected by). Yet neither of us were offended when somebody on the CBC joked about the Halifax Explosion, which killed almost as many people as 9/11.

[Paragon]

15. Thanks for changing the debate

They died. They died trying to save each other, they died trying to save themselves, and no one will ever deny the heroism of those acts.

They did not die "for their country". They did not enlist. They were not deputized by the government to fight terrorism. They were merely trying to get from place to place and do their jobs.

That twisting of their murders was the point of my post, but the usual motley crue has popped up with their tired agendas. Thanks, guys - sleep well tonight.

[RandomKoolzip]

20. That was a succinct a summation of my feelings about 9/11

as I've ever read. You are exactly right about that. Death has turned ordinary people into things they never asked to be. Sorry if you felt I was flogging my "tired agenda," because I totally agree with you about this.

[Paragon]

21. I wasn't talking about you, RK

If you haven't noticed, the same handful of "DUers" pop up whenever there's a thread about Michael or Nader or Arianna (anyone without a "D" after their name), regardless of the subject.

I apologize if I wasn't clear. You & I are on the same page.

[Fescue4u]

42. Guilty as charged

Moore threads tend get my attention after seeing some of his "work" and tend to kick me out of lurk mode to respond.

As for Arianna for Nader, I couldnt care less about'm.

I don't appreciate your " 'Duers' " insinuation though..there's enough paranoia here that we don't need more of it.

[aquart]

46. Yup.

[CanuckAmok]

28. My only beef with Moore...

...came when I saw him speak live in vancouver in the Summer of 2002. Someone in the audience mentioned the Canadian soldiers who were killed by 'friendly fire' in Afghanistan, to which Moore replied "aw, they souldn't have been there, anyway", to wild applause.

As a former Canadian soldier, and UN Peacekeeper, I was shocked by this glib, dismissive quip by one of my heroes. I probably shouldn't have been in Cyprus or the former Yugoslavia, or in Somalia, but I was, and I was because I felt I was doing "the right thing".

I could go on and on about how I found this offensive, but ultimately it reminded me of something I already knew; no man is an island--nobody is infalliable or perfect--and even our idols can falter.

[Paragon]

32. He went into that tonight

How we never should have to add "we support the troops" to our arguements -- of COURSE we support you in your endeavors. That's an obvious given.

It's our "leaders" who are not supporting you by sending you to places you agree you shouldn't be. I'm sure that's what he meant by that comment, which probably cuts a little too close to the bone for those directly involved. Just like with the families of the victims of 9/11.

[CanuckAmok]

35. I think I understand what he meant, but...

...it still pisses me off.

Above all else, he of all people should understand the concept of "economic draft".

[Paragon]

38. Covered that, too

How those in the "privileged class" who send soldiers to war further their disdain for the lower classes. How they talk a good game while sacrificing those less privileged to do their dirty work.

I'm sure an extended explanation of that remark from him would clear up his intentions. Wouldn't bury the guy on the basis of one sentence that's open to interpretation.

[CanuckAmok]

124. I agree, but...

he and I have exchanged several friendly emails over the years, but when I commented (in a non-threatening way) on his statement, he simply didn't reply.

I still support the guy, but that statement was misdirected, if not inflammatory.

But, yeah, I'm still his biggest fan.

[VolcanoJen]

47. Hey Paragon... I missed the whole thing.

You're in Cincinnati too, right?

I Slept Through Michael Moore Tonight.

[Blayde Starrfyre]

55. Jiacinto is representing the worst tactics of the right

Jiacinto, you're simply hawking the right's tool of establishing "sacred boundaries" that you don't allow liberals to cross. I understand what you're saying. But let's face facts. The Simpsons expressed this perfectly years before it happened. Bart fakes a young boy falling down a well and laughs when the media goes hysterical.

Homer: "Bart! That Timmy O'Toole is a real hero!"
Lisa: "How is he a hero?"
Homer: "Well, he fell down a well . . . and can't get out . . ."
Lisa: "How does that make him a hero?"
Homer: "Well it's more than you did!"

The ones who defile the memory of the victims aren't the ones who say things like this. It's the right wingers who use these tragic deaths, which their administration had ample time and ability to prevent, to butcher more innocent people to serve their pre-existing agenda.

But it's nothing new. As soon as Republicans establish "sacred topics" they turn right around and make hypocrites of themselves. They say "oh, you've GOT to support the troops, no dissent!" and Nethercutt then trivializes the pointless deaths of our soliders. Now they're trying to make Bush and the entire Republican party sacred ground, and I'm not going to watch it happen.

[0rganism]

58. You give Carlos too much credit

jiacinto doesn't do this schtick "to establish sacred boundaries", he just despises Michael Moore and whines every time Moore's name is mentioned. Zero points for planning, but he gets ten for consistency.

[Pastiche423]

61. Don't forget the far-lefties!

He hates them equally. (Although he has never defined "them".)

:eyes:

[0rganism]

72. We know who we are ;-)

I swear, jiacinto must run a forum search every time he leaves a thread, looking for anything with the words "Nader", "Green", or "Michael Moore" in it. He sniffs threads with these words out like a bloodhound, and immediately pops in to make his displeasure known. It's gotten so that, the second such a thread arises in any forum, I barely have time to mumble "cue carlos" and blammo! There he is!

Sometimes I think he might be a 'bot.

[IrateCitizen]

123. And don't forget about the "(-5)" for originality...

;-)

[Classical_Liberal]

67. What makes you think we can change everyone

We just have to change a majority. Some people with bullying tendencies use 9/11 to bully. No shock there.

[HFishbine]

82. Who knows

for certain? But perhaps she had in mind the people who stormed the cockpit over Pennsylvania. Questions about what really happend on that flight aside, many people view those passengers as heros.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

83. Would It Be Controversial To Say They Were Unwitting Martyrs?

They were killed because they were American or most of them were.....

If you or I or any of us were in those towers we would have been killed too just because we are Americans....

That's the fucked up thing about terrorism... The unwillingness to make a distinction between the guilty and the innocent.....

[Q]

86. The thread title is misleading...

...and you've shown NOTHING that proves that Moore said anything bad about the victims of 9-11. The premise of your thread seems to be based on the reaction from a young girl...but you never qualify what he said to get her upset.

- It's disgusting to watch the piling on of Moore for literally no reason beyond the fact that some don't like him.

[Native]

111. TOUCHÉ

.

[CWebster]

88. Frustrating, isn't it

How to articulate a simple sentence to convey the truth to them that doesn't threaten their emotional defenses?

Exploiting people's negative emotions---fear and the defensiveness that creates the us\them dichotomy is difficult to reason with.

And the Republicans claim they spread a message of optimism while the Democrats are portrayed as so negative because they actually deal with the reality (at their best, anyway).

[1songbird]

101. He was here in Cincinnati last night at Xavier University.

Michael was great last night. The place was packed. He got a wonderful response here and that is surprising because this is an EXTREMELY conservative city. Some people are starting to get it.

[Ficus]

109. I don't agree

with Moore 100% of the time...BUT, I think I'm glad he's on our side, and not theirs.

Moore is the anti-Fox News. He may be a big fat dorky looking guy, but he's the 180 opposite of blow dried facists like Shepard Smith and Sean Hannity. (nice mugshot Shep)

People like that fool disrespect 9/11 victims on a daily basis, and people want to rag on Michael Moore. HE'S ON OUR SIDE!
:wtf:

:dem: :dem:

[truth2power]

127. I was there last night, And I think what he said was misinterpreted

I'm gonna make this fast, because I have to get going. Have a meeting to go to. Will not be back until late tonight.

I wish I had taken notes, but... He was talking about people who fly being part of the "comfortable class" generally. We, the comfortable classs are accustomed to letting others "fix" things for us. That and the fact that, given the experience with hijackings up until 9/11, it was that if everyone just keeps a low profile the hijackers will force the plane to land somewhere and the passengers will be released eventually. But that's not what happened this time.

Based on prior experience, people just sat in their seats, not expecting they were all going to die. And also, to refer to the above, people just expected someone else would fix it.

As to the race thing I think people here are referring to, Moore said, "What if that plane had been filled with people from the South Bronx?" (close to the exact quote). I took that to mean that people who've grown up more street wise, where you had to know how to fight to be able to protect yourself, would have been more likely to have seriously challenged the hijackers. He was contrasting the comfortable class with people who have grown up in the inner city where you have to do for yourself as opposed to having the expectation that "others" will fix whatever goes wrong.

He then drew an analogy to what the "liberals" are doing in America today and said "When are you going to get up out of your seats?" Maybe not the exact quote, but close. I'm going by memory here.

I didn't see anything racist in that at all.

What I think was problematic in this whole thing was that Moore does tend to ramble. This whole exercise was quite rambling and convoluted. So much so that if one wasn't paying close attention it was quite easy to lose the thread of the whole story, and thus the point as well.

Moore was right on in so many areas. But the evening was much too long, and there was supposed to be time for questions, which didn't happen due to the late hour when everything finally wound up. I had hoped for questions.

BTW, I was in section 210. I looked for other DUers. No luck.

edit: I thought you would like to know - there were 3,187 people there. I asked one of the security people.

[jiacinto]

128. Think about it this way

Don't you think minorities resent it when Moore plays upon stereotypes that they are more "aggressive and violent"? Becuase that's what he's saying.

[truth2power]

129. I think you're still misinterpreting, Carlos.

I've heard comedians talking about growing up on the streets of NY, or Chicago, or almost any big city. And these are white comedians. It's about being a kid in a low income neighborhood, where you have to be able to hold your own. It's not the same as growning up in, say, Indian Hill (that's an elite area of Cincinnati).

Maybe I'm still not making myself clear. Sorry. I'm in a hurry. But It's not about being black or white. Being low income maybe.

Later.

[jiacinto]

130. I emailed this thread to a black man I know

This is what he wrote to me:

"Moore is an ass; a completely racist ass at that, to imply that if black men were on that plane, each and every one would have been a "bad ass" . . . Moore . . . doesn't get that blacks, and black men in particular, are sick of being characterized as natural thugs, just because we're black. As a black man, I don't take it as a complement that Moore would use such characterizations."

Think of it.

[truth2power]

131. Oh gawd..give me a break.

Gonna be late to my meeting.

IT'S NOT ABOUT BLACK OR WHITE.

OK. I'm middle aged. I remember people lkie George Burns (white) and who else, those old comedians who talked about growing up on the streets of new york or wherever, having their lunch money stolen etc. because of the bullys etc. In that atmosphere you have to learn to hold your own. You learn to fight because you have to. That's what he was talking about.

[jiacinto]

132. Then why did my black friend find what Moore said to be

offensive?

[truth2power]

134. First, I think your friend is entitled to his opinion.

I still think what Moore said was misinterpreted.

For instance, who is that feminist academic who rants about pornography...sorry, my brain is locking up. Just because she thinks pornography is an offense to women, doesn't mean all women feel the same way. Read Nadine Strossen's book, Defending Pornography, for instance. I consider myself a feminist, but I am much closer to Strossen on this issue.

Your friend has every right to his position. But if I were talking to him I would still assert that this is not about racism. It's about growing up in a neighborhood where the strongest (physically) survive. Well, street smarts helps.

i grew up in a middle class neighborhood. If I had to survive in the inner city I probably would get the sh*t beaten out of me. It wasn't part of my experience.

[Lisa]

139. wasn't the story meant to point out how wrong the stereotypes are?

Moore seems to like the strategy of "let's take this to the logical conclusion". This doesn't always work, but it fits his personality pretty well -- even if there are more subtle and probably more persuasive styles. He uses it a lot.

Surely every single person (and not just those on this board) can think of an example of a black person who ISN'T some big nasty thug? In which case, coming out and making a plainly outrageous assertion like the "black people would have fought off those hijackers" yarn was meant to show how silly that stereotype is. Moore did this in "Stupid White Men" several times, "in character" as a loudmouth bigot, playing devil's advocate. I have seen him in a question-and-answer session and it appeared to me that he was switching back and forth between this and his real persona, when alluding to various points used by the right -- indicating, by tone of voice, pauses, winking, etc. which one he was "playing" at any given time. A typed transcript doesn't convey this subtlety.

For the record, there are also black people who like his work -- one of whom told me to buy the book, saying "Michael's an excitable boy -- but he's OUR boy." Exact words. He didn't explain whether he meant "our" in the ideological or ethnic sense.

[Ficus]

135. he found it offensive

because you portray it to him incorrectly. If he was aware that Moore was talking about class, not race, then he may not have been offended. For you to assume that because he was talking about lower class people he was refering to blacks shows more racism on your part than his. But I doubt you are racist. I just think you are a Moore hater.

[jiacinto]

136. You're right--I don't like Moore

I think Moore has done significant damage to this country following his constant campaigning for Nader in '00. I just refuse to let him off the hook for, which all too many of his worshippers at DU let him do all the time. I think Moore is in it for himself.

I didn't "portray it to him incorrectly". This person follows the media and the news. I sent him the thread and let him decide for himself.

I think that Moore should shut up when it comes to race because he is offensive to people of every color.

[Ficus]

138. Moore

went to Florida the day before the election and told Nader supporters to vote for Gore if they were worried about throwing the election to Bush. I can understand people blaming Nader for the loss, but when you get to Moore you're really reaching. I don't think ANY endorser of any candidate can make that much of a difference.

Not to mention the messed up ballots, the not-so-convicted fellon purge by Harris before the election, the Buchanan Jewish fan club, and all of the other shananagans that went on. Not to start that argument --- But to accuse Moore of losing the election for you makes you nothing more than one of the Gore apologists.

:dem: :dem:

[Heddi]

141. ficus, ficus, ficus

You're fighting a losing battle---really---

You can bring up EVERY SINGLE POINT you just made (erroneous vote counts, disenfranchisement of black voters, polling places closing down early ((or not open at all)) in primarily black neighborhoods, Harris, The Supreme Court, etc), and it will STILL be all blamed on Nader by Carlos.

It honestly doesn't matter what evils were permitted in Florida---to him, the BIGGEST Evil was that Nader was allowed on the ballot---everything else is just....mushy stuff that gets in the way of his Nader/Moore/Green/Progressive/Leftist bashing.

Seriously---you make good points, but I fear they're falling on deaf ears....

[jiacinto]

146. Heddi--I don't blame everything on Nader and Moore

But, unlike a certain group of DUers, I won't idolize them like Gods and absolve them of any responsiblity of what happened in 2000.

You can bring up every single point about Nader--the lies, the malfeasance, they hypocrisy--and yet his followers will still rationalize him.

[jiacinto]

145. I do blame Moore for his role in it

For months on end he attacked Gore nonstop and then pathetically--in a tepid fashion--asked the Nader supporters to change their mind. This coming after he spent the whole year attacking Gore. Frankly Moore was sensing the catastrophe looming over the horizon and was trying to find a way out.

I don't hold him 100% responsible, but he did do everything he could to bring Gore down. So yeah I will hold him responsible for what he did in 2000.

If Moore was so against Bush he would have voted Gore and not helped W out at the most crucial moments. Yeah I don't understand why I should consider him such "an ally".

To listen to him bitch about Bush is like listening to the person who helped the robber steal from the store talk abouts security.

[Forkboy]

142. Well

if ONE black man says so,then all black men must feel the same. :eyes:

[sal]

147. We all died a little on 9/11/01 (props to Clint)

Who really believes tha M. Moore doesn't care about its victims? Stupid. Like everyone here, he wants to see justice done and to make sure that they don't become tawdry props for repuke (I like that word) political gains. We all sacrificed; I mourn for my country still.

Some comments here remind me of all the flags I see people fly in the rain and the dark, which finally get ripped to shreads and thrown in the garbage.