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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 03:17 AM
Original message
Courts are sexist against men -- this must be changed!
Unfortunantely this article seems to be the case -- I have seen it happen over and over again with friends of mine. We hear moans and groans from feminists and politicians, and movies made about, when some Arab or Iranian father (married to an American seeking divorce) just gets his kids and moves back to the Middle East -- where women are treated like men are in the USA by the courts. I can hardly blame thése men. In fact, I'll bet if there were an English-speaking country that would offer refuge to men who wished to set up residence there with their children, in defiance of whatever a court said about their rights as fathers, many, many American men would go there. I think that our system of institutionalized sexism against men (family court) should be abolished and a new, more fair, system be established.

"Child Support Nightmares
The Destruction of Fatherhood

By Kenneth C. Wiggins
A Good Father And A "Bad Dad"

"Inalienable rights, equitable treatment, due process, evidence, and trial by jury somehow died, beginning about thirty years ago. False accusation, extortion and debtor's prison are alive and well, living here in America.

We call it Child Support. Hidden behind three decades of propaganda for our "children's best interests," behind the doomsayers of "higher welfare costs", our government has suspended our Rights. Nevermind that these Family Laws are now costing us substantially more than we spent ever before. Nevermind that we are branding men as criminal, driving fathers into poverty, and, often, throwing "second families" into that same abyss with them.

We are destroying Fatherhood, and creating a nation of fatherless children.

It is a pretty simple scam game. If money is the root of all evil, federal funding is the root of this extortion. "Decide" that money is owed, and use the authority and power of the court to start collecting, under the "color of law", in the name of "our children's best."

First, "who's the daddy?" You would think that in today's technology of blood and DNA testing that should be a simple matter. Forget it. A woman "accuses" a man of paternity, and the courts start to collect. While murderers and rapists are now regularly set free by this marvelous DNA science, most courts will not allow this evidence past the door. Laboratories that do DNA testing have testified that 25-30% of these tests are not a match for paternity, even among married couples.

In any other court, lying, false accusation, or "fraud upon the court" would carry some stiff penalties. Paternity fraud is common in a Family Court. A woman pays no penalty whatsoever. Should a man manage to get a DNA test order past the courts, proving undeniably, that he did not father these children, more often than not, the courts will ignore that evidence. Of course, he gets to continue to pay. It is the only court in which lying and cheating are rewarded.

Child Advocate agencies go by different names in different states, but they operate pretty much the same. A caseworker "determines" custody, income and "parenting time". Most commonly, women are given custody by default (90%), no hearing, no investigation necessary. Judges rubber stamp the caseworker's determinations. Due process and evidence just went out the door.

Common practice is to "impute wages." That's another term for "making it up." Jacking the price up is standard operating procedure to "create leverage." Of course your first instinct is to hire a lawyer and appeal this "mistake." First, the "court rules" prevent your lawyer from arguing for your rights or for things like examining evidence. In fact the Child Advocates never bother to show up with anything like evidence. Your lawyer's sole role is to broker a deal, usually somewhere between their exagerated demand and the truth. Lawyers that don't "play along" are quickly put out of business by Child Advocate offices and judges who abuse all of their clients in retribution.

At your appeal hearing, no evidence of income is presented by the Child Advocate prosecutor, no evidence of earning ability, no evidence of hireability. You do get to present your records. The judges get to make up their own evidence and enter it outside the courtroom, and, if that isn't good enough, they can, and do, just ignore your evidence.

Illegal? Unconstitutional? Absolutely. Court rules again "require" that your first two appeals be through the very court you just came through. Denied, of course, and you will have spent $7-8,000 with one of the "good ole boy" lawyers to do that. The next step is the state's Court of Appeals, so you can add another $15-20,000 in legal costs. That is exactly the point. The government is already collecting money from you at an inflated rate, plus the costs of a lawyer so far. Is it cheaper to pay their extortions or to pay their buddy lawyer to finally get responsibility and justice in a courtroom? You can guess the answer is by design.

Men are driven into poverty, often unable to afford basic medical, dental and optical needs. Sometimes driven to living in the streets. Fathers are driven from their children, sometimes physically being forced to "go on the run" or sometimes having to move to another area to get an income that allows them the simple ability to stay alive and out of jail. Often, the simple emotional trauma is enough to alienate father's from their children, and it is often also readily used by spouses to portray father's as unloving and uncaring towards those children.

Courts seem to not want to be "bothered" with parenting rights. Men, commonly are kept from seeing their children, even when court orders exist. The courts don't even try. A man, making only $70 a week has been jailed until he can pay $28,000 in back child support, and never likely to from his jail cell. The courts had refused to help him see is children for more than six years.

Men who have gone through divorce are more than five times more likely to commit suicide. "Murder on the courthouse steps" has become a more and more common event. Recent events with a sniper along the East coast terrorized millions. All these events can be traced directly back to our Family Courts.

Fathers are being destroyed by a system that seeks to squeeze every ounce of money possible before discarding them, with abject disdain for both the health and welfare fathers and their essential roles as nurturing parents, protectors, role models, and caretakers of their children.

The worst of this moral and legal criminal scam is the destruction be wreaked upon our children. Children from fatherless homes comprise one of the largest and fastest growing segments of all our our other social ills. We teach our sons to distrust women, fear marriage and hate government, and we teach our daughters to lie, cheat and use marriage to steal money.

What have we done, what have we done?


Kenneth C. Wiggins "

www.cryforchildren.org/cfdocs/51cs.cfm

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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 03:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. Oh, yes
The poor oppressed white male. :eyes:

If you're looking for a flame war on this one, I'm sure you'll find it. If you're looking for support for this position, I don't believe you will get much.
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 03:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. So black and Hispanic men aren't victimized as well?
Where did I say anything about race? In one of the cases I am thinking of the man was Hispanic. Don't put accusations where they don't belong.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
142. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
146. On the contrary... minority males are hit by this even harder by this
than white guys.


I'm sure you would agree that getting job and making a living is harder for a black man or Hispanic man, then for a white guy, on average.

Then add to that the bias that a lot of courts show towards black and Hispanic males... then add in the fact that all a woman has to do is SAY that you're the daddy, and Uncle Sam comes after your wallet.


I read an account of a man who divorced his wife when he found out she'd been cheating... and then came to find out that 2 of their 4 kids were not even his. Yet he still had to pay support for all of them.

The courts put all of the responsibility on the man, and none on the women. She can cheat and lie and the courts 9 times out of 10 will give her custody, no matter how f-ed up she is as a mother, and make the man pay support... if he's lucky he might get to see his kids on the weekend. There are not even any rules that say support has to be spent on the kids.




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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #146
190. Truly sad and unfair to fathers and children!
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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #146
257. "I read an account"
I know a person who found out she was pregnant when she was in the hospital with a broken jaw. The husband\father who did it got custody, and as in the story mentioned below, she's about to go to jail for not paying her child support.
I'm sick to death of the whining coming from men as if they are the only ones affected!! It happens to women too.
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Clark Can WIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #146
275. If she is buying groceries, keeping the lights on, putting gas in
the fucking car and has any household expenses in general.... THAT IS SPENDING MONEY ON THE KIDS.

So many men are not happy unless every dollar of support goes into things they can itemize as opposed to bills. They want the ex wife in rags and a detailed reciept of every dime spent "on the kids". They like to pretend that food, lights, heat, gas, insurance, household goods, are FREE.

If the mother is worthless they should get a lawyer and fight for custody. That's what my nephew did and he won. Took him 2 lawyers and a lot of time and trouble, but he did it. He's working poor btw so don't tell me some don't have the money, he didn't either, but he did it anyway because it MATTERED ENOUGH TO HIM NOT TO GIVE UP.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
301. What does being white have to do with anything?
I am brown and went through a very rough extortion.
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J B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 03:32 AM
Response to Original message
2. If the alternative is destroying motherhood,
I don't think there's any question which side most Americans are on.
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SmileyBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:30 AM
Response to Reply #2
18. Oh, so it's OK to destroy fatherhood...
...but if the mothers get screwed, FOUL!!!!

I can clearly see the hypocrisy in this. And child services is by far the most criminal, corrupt section of our public welfare that exists in this country.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:40 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
SmileyBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. I'm not talking about deadbeat dads.
There's plenty of fathers out there who are in poverty after being divorced and having most of their stuff taken away. And that's not me talking because I read the article. I've seen it in REAL LIFE many times. Lots of friends of mine when I was little were in this EXACT situation. Here's an example from when I was 8: My friend told me that his daddy and mommy were divorced, but mommy still lives it up in her cozy 3-bedroom home. So I uncomfortably ask his mom "Did you get into fights??" And she would say no... I'd ask where he was now, and she said "He's rotting away somewhere..."

Here's another notion: Because women recieve custody of children in a divorce a majority of the time even though the father is clearly the better father on many occasions, this could be a prevailing sexist attitiude towards women (and men, too), but mostly women. it's the assumption that the woman MUST be the better caregiver because, well... She's a WOMAN!!!
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. That is all your opinion, not fact
and puh-leeeze! What you perceived as an 8 year old is HARDLY credible evidence. Sheeeesh! :eyes:

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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #30
151. Here is an example going on right now....


A friend of mine met a woman while he was in England... she's Russian.

She came with him back to the states, and got married. All was great for a year or so, she had a little boy, and then as soon after my friend started to notice some odd behavior. She was out at odd hours, would quickly turn of the computer when he’d walk to the room… stuff like that.

Well he comes to find out that not only is she cheating on him with some Russian dude, but they’ve been plotting to KILL HIM! He has the e-mails where her and her mother back in Russia are talking about poisoning him, taking his assets, and using the citizen status of his son to get permanent residence.

Well he found this out and confronted her with it… so she goes to the cops saying that he’s been beating her and raping her on a regular basis, tries to have him arrested, then says he’s dealing drugs, then says he’s been abusing the kid… just about everything you could imagine to try and get custody of the child. And it worked. They gave this woman custody.

That was about two years ago. He has so far had to spend every penny he had, on court fees and lawyers just trying to keep his son… and it is not over yet. Even when he has proof of this woman plotting to murder him and steal his stuff… the courts are still considering giving her custody and making him pay child support. He only gets to see his child like every other weekend.

This woman should be in prison, but these sexist laws still say that the man is the villain in this.
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #151
191. It seems some judges would grant Andrea Yates custody of...
her children, if she had any that survived!
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. More anecdotal evidence, whereas
"The rate of child poverty, for example, is five times higher for children living with single mothers than for children in intact families. In 1992, 53.4% of female-headed households with children subsisted below the poverty line, compared with only 10.7% of all other families with children. Studies show a drop in income for both women and men, noting that women experience an income decline of about 30 percent while the divorced male will experience about a 10 percent drop in income."

http://www.marriageproject.org/fs0062.html

Yes, men suffer financially from divorce, but women, on average, suffer 3 times as much.
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:21 AM
Response to Reply #32
39. So award men custody at least 50% of the time.
Simple solution.
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Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #39
99. So reward financial discrimination against women........
by taking custody of their children away from them? :eyes:
What's in the best interest of the children?

Yes, hand over custody to the fathers' rights activists. After all, looking after children day to day is SO easy, and it is only fair to these self-sacrificing men. :eyes: Since women are too busy working longer than men to only make way less than they do, why not take their kids away from them? Punish them, that's it. We know just how horrible and ROTTEN single mothers are to children. :eyes:

Custody should go to the parent, or in a lot of cases, parents(joint custody) who can give them the best care.
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #26
115. Sorry,
The standards of living of women and children go DOWN after divorce; men's go UP. You're dead wrong.

http://www.heritage.org/research/features/familydatabase/detail.cfm?ID1=3303

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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
149. And this is because child custody laws and divorce laws are old



they were written and are still based on the idea that she is so stupid and incapable as a female, that she can't have any hope of supporting herself or the kids and therefore the man is obligated to to support her through alimony and the kids through child support.

These laws are also based on the premise that once a woman has been soiled by a man, no other man would want to marry her and support her, so again it is the guy's job to support her since he has ruined her.


Now for all the fits that the feminist activists throw for everything that even hints at diminishing or insulting women or saying men are superior to women or that women are incapable... like freaking out about terms like congressman or spokesman... I see NOTHING said about these divorce and custody laws.

Feminist do not seem to mind sexist laws that say women are inferior to men, just as long as those laws put money in women's purses.



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Maine Mary Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #149
202. This arguement reminds me of the "liberal media" theory.
While it may have been true at one time it is not now. In fact, my uncle, a lawyer of 25+ years and former Attorney General of the State of Maine says it's been his experiance that MEN win custody more often then women (at least in this State) IF they seek it. Sadly alot of this has to do w/money. Women still make only 75 cents on every dollar that a man makes and though judges are not supposed to be biased in that regard, they often consider it in "the best interest of the child" to be in home w/more financial stability. The only reason you see more women w/custody is becasue men generally don't seek it as often.


Conservatives like to repeat over and over that the media has a liberal bias even though it is no longer true. The same can be said about this custody/CS debate.





Are courts more likely to award custody to mothers than to fathers?

In the past, most states provided that custody of children of "tender years" (about five and under) had to be awarded to the mother when parents divorced. In most states, this rule has been rejected entirely, or relegated to the role of tie-breaker if two otherwise fit parents request custody of their preschool children. No state now requires that a child be awarded to the mother without regard to the fitness of both parents. Most states require their courts to determine custody on the basis of what's in the children's best interests, without regard to the parent's gender.

As it turns out, many divorcing parents agree that the mother will have custody after a separation or divorce and that the father will exercise reasonable visitation. This sometimes happens because the parents agree that the mother has more time, a greater inclination or a better understanding of the children's daily needs. But it can also be because fathers presume that mothers will be awarded custody or because the mother is more tenacious in seeking custody.

If you are a father and want to ask the court for physical custody, do not let gender stereotypes stop you. If both you and the mother work full-time, and the kids have after-school care, you may be on equal footing. In fact, if you have more flexible hours than the mother, you could have a leg up. In any event, the judge will look at what's best for the children. So if you think that you should have primary custody and that you can persuade the judge that it's in the kids' best interests, you should go ahead and ask for custody. If you present yourself as willing and able to parent, it will go a long way towards challenging any lingering prejudice against you as a father.

http://www.nolo.com/lawcenter/ency/article.cfm/catid/AC0903D2-C845-40E8-850E1DCEDDEA5778/objectid/2E84628F-753B-45FE-810C13AD8261B1F3
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #23
63. I don't know what state you live in, but I have never heard of the
process you are describing. DNA tests are ordered and performed to determine contested paternity in California.

Support and visitation issues are heard seperately. There is a standard dissomaster used to determine support. The court uses it here.

Courts aren't sexist here, just real effing slow. Like frozen mollasses.

I have worked my butt off to raise my two boys alone without financial assistance and health insurance for my youngest that was ordered by the court, while the father, when convenient for him, excersized visitation. I have had teeth pulled out rather than fixed so that I could buy tennis shoes for my kids. He has been in arrears some $40,000 at times. He has formed corporations, hidden income, conspired with employers, done everything thinkable to avoid supporting his child while maintaining a lavish lifestyle. It took years to get one thin dime. Everytime they get him they attach his wages for a while, then he moves on. Funny, the selfish bastard, has had the same girlfriend for 5 years now. She desperately wants a child. He won't make that mistake again.

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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #63
77. Your ex sounds like a first class jerk...
Tell his girlfriend there are plenty of alternatives to him out there who will give her what she wants.

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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #63
81. And sadly that is the norm rather than the exception
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #18
120. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Terran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #120
122. Well said
and thank you for saying it.

Dirk
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #122
123. Someone's gotta say what's real sometimes. Doesn't make me popular,
makes em call me a man hater and worse, but I just say what's real.

Can't dispute the truth.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #123
129. Or they call you a ....... *gasp* .........
:o
FEMINIST :wow:
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #123
175. that may be you truth and i fell really sorry for you
but it isn't universal truth and we can't make laws and apply them to all men because some men are jerks.

you might want to consider you tone a bit. the use of "you" instead of some men isn't going to help the debate.
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #175
195. We base our laws on reality. Reality is, men are the cause of the problems
in the majority in this situation, that women win out in the courts.

Far too often men just don't want their kids. This gets real obvious as men abondon their families and take on new, younger women and create new families, leaving the old ones by the wayside.

It's not CHICKS in the majority abandoning their children to the welfare system, it's men.

It's not chicks beating their wives and girlfriends and (finally) going to jail for it. (this is VERY recently becoming far more common, that men finally do time for being abusive)

It's not chicks who commit more than 96% of all crimes. It's men.
Therefore the legal system, in the case of families, rules in favor of the mothers, since they're far more resposible in the majority when it comes to family matters.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #195
271. Your logic is crucially flawed
First of all, you base your claims on unfounded assertions.

Secondly, and more importantly, our justice system is based on justice. Even if your assertions were correct, the judge should be deciding the case on its merits, not the sociological generalizations of the groups involved.
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Clark Can WIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #271
282. Bullshit
It's based on a clearly observable pattern.

Families split up.

Men do not seek custody in the vast majority of cases.

Some men quit paying their child support and get called on it then act all freakin' offended and rightous when in fact they are just cheap irrisponsible bastards in the majority of cases.
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Rich Hunt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #120
127. how many of those men
....are in prison for victimless crimes, however?
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #127
131. What's your point?
If they are cooling their heels in prison what the hell is the difference why they are there in this context? They can't have custody of their children while they are in prison. Get it?

Nice try though.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #131
176. That was not the gist of her post about 90% of prisoners.
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 02:32 PM by JVS
Nice try though.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #120
154. And when women stop straping their kids in cars...
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 01:08 PM by TLM

and driving them into lakes or killing them in the bathtub... we'll stop pretending that simply having a vagina makes you a better parent.

Tell me, are their more cases of child abuse and infanticide commited by men, or by women?
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #154
198. Most murders are caused by men. Most children's deaths are at the hands of
men.

Most sexual child abuse is by men; most child physical abuse is by men; most shaken baby syndrome; men. Child abductions, rapes, molestations, almost exclusively male.

How many nuns have been sent off the church for molesting children in recent years?

How many women have driven their cars into lakes or drowned their kids in bathtubs? One of each in recent years.(Notice the non-violence of the crimes BTW; women are far more prone to non-violent methods of abuse or murder such as poisoning, starvation, imprisonment, suffocation.. just as a side note.)

Men aren't the heros they make themselves out to be. Their faults need to be magnified far more often.

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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #198
200. Most child abuse is committed by women...
http://www.fraternizing.org/cgi-bin/D.PL?s=rp0KDe&d=frater.a.childabuse

and I too have seen what this site is reporting -- step fathers and boyfriends are more dangerous to children than fathers are. How many murderers have you heard of who were stepmothers or girlfriends of the father? How many have you heard of just in your own community where the killer of children was a stepfather or boyfriend with the help of the mother? I sat in on a case a few years back where a boyfriend killed a 2 year old girl and then the mother and him drove around to find a place to bury the body.

Fathers defend their children -- just like in the wild. Human society takes fathers out of the picture.
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #200
299. fathers take themselves out of the picture
Your source does not say where he gets his statistics - he does indicate that he thinks men are unfairly treated. I didn't see where he backed this up.

I think the reason you hear more in the news when women are violent is BECAUSE IT IS NOT THE NORM. If the newspapers printed every case where men were doing this in proportion in real life to what women were doing - that would be the whole newspaper - there would not be room or time to report anything else.

_________________

http://www.abanet.org/domviol/stats.html

* fathers who batter mothers are 2 times more likely to seek sole physical custody of their children than are non-violent fathers.
American Psychl. Ass'n, Violence and the Family: Report of the American Psychological Association Presidential Task Force on Violence and the Family (1996), p. 40.


In some domestic homicides, the perpetrator kills more than one person.

* in 1994, 38% of domestic homicides were multiple-victim, usually combining a spouse homicide and suicide, or child homicide.
Florida Governor's Task Force on Domestic and Sexual Violence, Florida Mortality Review Project, 1997, p.45, table 12.

* where there are multiple victims in a domestic homicide, 89% of perpetrators are male.
Florida Governor's Task Force on Domestic and Sexual Violence, Florida Mortality Review Project, 1997, p.52, table 29.

___________________

http://endabuse.org/resources/facts/

* Intimate partner violence is primarily a crime against women. In 2001, women accounted for 85 percent (some sites reported 95%) of the victims of intimate partner violence (588,490 total) and men accounted for approximately 15 percent of the victims (103,220 total).
________

http://www.dvc.org.nz/stats.htm

Men assaulting their women partners comprise between 86% and 98% of family violence-related arrests. 2 Recent NZ studies found that 35% of men reported physically assaulting their partners, 3 and 33% of women reported physical or sexual abuse from their male partner.

65% of separated men who pay any child support, pay only $10 per week.

"...That is not to say that women or children are not violent, but the impact of their offending is 90% less than what men are currently committing....."
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #120
173. Does that go for black people too?
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 02:16 PM by JVS
Is higher rate of incarceration proof of being genetically bad in your book?
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #120
178. Way to be completely sexist
I call AP... I have my doubts that any real liberal could be so amazingly sexist.
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Mass_Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #120
185. Hold the hell up on that
radwriter, thats like saying when you muslims stop killing children, bombing the red cross, and doing jihad we'll cut you some slack

or if you christians will stop killing jews well cut you some slack. Both of these are reckless generalizations. Please think before you say something like that
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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #18
245. Misogynistic judges
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 08:02 PM by loyalsister
RAMPANT!!! I have a friend (woman) who is about to go to jail over child support.
The way this came about--
She screwed up on child support because she is a waitress. Lack of education- unreliable employment - BUT required to pay $400\month child support. The ex -who lives with his parents, and has a comfortable factory job- went after her when she screwed up (I don't deny it was her fault).
HOWEVER, when she had to go before the judge after that, the terms were if she misses 3 payments she goes to jail for 5 years. That seems a little unfair. The point of child support enforcement is not punishment for either sex. Yet, women are very often extremely harshly punished by judges who seem to believe they are foregoing their "natural law" duties.
The point is to make sure that the children are provided for. Wonder why the judge didn't impose job requirements as part of her probation. OR sever her visitation??? It's not like she'll be able to make payments from jail.
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 03:34 AM
Response to Original message
3. On the other hand...
"Less than half of those arrested for rape are convicted, 54% of all rape prosecutions end in either dismissal or acquittal. The conviction rate for those arrested for murder is 69% and all other felons is 54%. (The Response to Rape: Detours on the Road to Equal Justice) 21% of convicted rapists are never sentenced to jail or prison time, and 24% receive time in local jail which means that they spend an average of less than 11 months behind bars. (The Response to Rape: Detours on the Road to Equal Justice)"

Oh those sexist US Courts...
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
194. I'm sorry, but
those statistics are meaningless. Not enough context, and no control variable.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 03:37 AM
Response to Original message
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 03:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Care to educate me why this is not true?
You know of no man shafted by the courts in a divorce hearing?
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Start by looking at the lack of specific cases cited
by the author and gross exaggerations like "A woman "accuses" a man of paternity, and the courts start to collect."
Add a little anti-"big government" BS like "If money is the root of all evil, federal funding is the root of this extortion."
And spin some facts like "Most commonly, women are given custody by default (90%)" (how many of these cases were even contested?) and ouila! Right-wing propaganda.

Do some men get shafted in family court? Maybe.
Does that make the entire US legal system sexist in favor of men? See my last post.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. There is so much hyperbole in that website,
gross exaggeration and just plain lies that none of it even qualifies as bullshit. What utter fucking nonsense.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. No fucking sale
I'm not convinced you came here to be "educated", and it ain't my fucking job to reprogram someone who choses to believe such mysogynist bullshit.

You have a point to make it's up to you to make your case, and so far you are not doing too well. I can cite you a few sources later but it's too fricken late at night for this shit.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #9
83. the orginal post is full of shit and so is this one
statistics prove you have no point.

I have seen the whiney asshole who wrote this article. He has been making the rounds of daytime talk shows for years. He is simply the Rush limbaugh of the poor put upon angry white guy.

I can't beleive you would post this shit here. It is offensive crap and totally without merrit. Proof, just read the stats skippy.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 03:39 AM
Response to Original message
5. What a stinking
load of crap!
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 03:45 AM
Response to Original message
6. This thread ain't nuthin' but shit.
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Prove it.
And this is not a Rep v. Dem issue either.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. No how about you prove it with something besides
sexist horseshit propaganda from a right wing website with actual facts to back it up instead of the bullshit rhetoric you started this thread with.
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SmileyBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #10
22. I don't see how it's bullshit. Maybe I'm just a sexist pig.
And I'm a 3000-post DU veteran, so I'm clearly not a troll.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. I don't care if you have 30, 000 posts,
and your status as a "DU veteran" doesn't mean squat. Membership to this website does not guarantee intelligence or enlightenment on any particular issue nor does the time to squat on one's ass in front of a PC and run up a post count.

And if you don't understand by now that talking points from a right wing website are not utter propaganda and horse shit then it would clearly be a waste of my time to explain that to you nor am I up to such a thankless task.
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SmileyBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Oh, don't bust a vein. I'm giving a differing opinion on a minor issue.
Don't start thinking that ol' northwest is some doofus Klan member, or something. Jeez, this is why I never go to GD.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:05 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. What do you care what I think?
I have not "busted a vein" I am simply responding to the weaknesses in what you call your "differing opinion on a minor issue" From the looks of your other posts in this thread it looked like it might be a bigger deal than that to you, but maybe I'm mistaken.

Never crossed my mind that you might be a "Klan member". (????) For Gods sake, WTF does racism have to do with this?
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
157. North you have to learn that women can not be wrong on anything ever
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 01:10 PM by TLM
on DU. WOmen are infalable and men are just brutal ignorant rapists who want nothing more than to beat up women and kill them if they can.


To question the bias in divorce laws is something that will get you labeled as a woman hater sexist pig.

Yet you'll find very few women willing to address the substantive points of the bias in the laws... these are the same women who seem to think that it is sexism if every accusation of rape isn't followed by a conviction and prison sentence. There is no room in their view for men being anything but guilty.


The fact is some women look at men like their own personal ATM machine, and in a lot of cases the law backs this view up.
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SmileyBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #157
170. That's right. You summed it up better than I could have.
God forbid that I issue an opinion that doesn't fly with the feminist agenda.
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #157
179. Sigh...
1.) Find me the post where I called men "woman hating sexist pigs"? I have gone out of my way to cite stastics which show that the bias towards women in divorce law is a myth, and yet you ignore those posts and post more and more anecdotal evidence. If you want me to admit I am wrong why don't you try actually presenting me with evidence that I am.
2.) You have found a woman who is challenging the substantive points of bias in the law. Why don't you challenge her substantive points instead of relying on gender stereotypes like "women will never admit when they are wrong"?
3.) My point in post #3 is that when men are _convicted_ of rape 45% of the time they spend less than 11 months in jail. Does this suggest to you that US courts are biased in favor of women across the board?
4.) Again, cite me the cases where the law backs up the view that women see men as ATM machines. Don't give me "a lot of cases"- I did you the courtesy of citing some research on the subject. Why don't you return the favor and contribute something substantial to this debate?
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Clark Can WIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #157
286. You mean the way some men view a woman as
just some twat they shouldn't have to pay for (including any kids she's borne) if they are not getting the "action"?

Bias in the laws my ass. Men can usually get custody WHEN THEY DESERVE IT and many times when they do not.
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:59 AM
Response to Reply #6
31. Evidence the system should change a lot more.
http://www3.uakron.edu/hefe/father/parke7.htm

"Still - parents make up the bulk of the decision. In cases where fathers gain sole custody of their children, about 2/3's were awarded custody because the mother did not want custody, in 2/3's of the cases children also wanted to live with father. As of 1988, about 80% of all custody is awarded automatically to mother. While paternal custody had been the historical norm up until the last half of the twentieth century (about 1940), that norm was radically changed during the 1950s. Imagine why this is the case. The industrial history of the U.S., as was discussed in the earlier historical analysis of the development of the father role in U.S. culture, is a big clue..

The tender years doctrine, guiding courts and the culture, has become the philosophy behind the switch to maternal custody. Conveniently, with urbanization, children became less a form of financial security and more of a financial risk. As more and more children are thrust into living with one parent - and as more and more women have entered legal professions - a new philosophy (the best interests of the child doctrine - now guides the courts. This is a change of convenience for males, but not for women, and certainly not for children.

Custodial Fathers generally are:

- older, more established, higher s.e.s., more education.
- can better afford a larger slice of justice
- experience less stress
- better able to manage financially
Invidious Comparisons of Custodial Fathers to Mothers
Boys living with fathers tend to be more mature, sociable, and have higher esteem, than boys solely in mom's care. It is the opposite for girls, who are less cooperative, less honest if living with Dad."

So overall, fathers get custody when the children want the dad and/or if the mother doesn't want it. The only disadvantage, as many legal sites will point out, that men have is that if a divorce involves really young children the mother has been the primary care-giver. In cases where the man has taken time off from work, or is a stay-at-home father, the courts generally see him as a loser. If he worked full time while the mother was a stay-at-home mother or only worked outside the home part-time she automatically can claim she has been with the children more often. This is changing, but needs to change to where fathers get the children (young children) at least 50% of the time.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #31
40. Wow, from a 15 year old syllabus with info as much as 40 years old
on it. That's a little better than the right wing website with Republican talking points. My compliments on your epiphany. :thumbsup:
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #40
46. So legal practices in the 1990s are not relevant?
And if a child's parents were divorced in 1990, and she were 2 years old, then now she is still only 14-15 years old and still living with (probably) the mother.

And if courts are fair and unbiased, how come the media only talks about "deadbeat fathers" and not "deadbeat mothers"?
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #46
50. Prove it. All your opinion still. Back that up with some fact.
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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #46
274. What about "unwed fathers"?
wha wha wha! Men have no stigma attached to them until they ignore the kid enough to go to jail. If they pay their child support, they are admirable. If they take custody, they are annointed saints.
Single mothers have a stigma the second they get pregnant. Guys have to prove themselves to be insensitive to their child's well being before they are considered a serious screw-up on this issue.
Enough whining already!
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T Bone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 03:51 AM
Response to Original message
11. Maybe men just don't hire the best lawyers
but on another note, I will state for the record that IMO Middle aged white men are really not wanted on juries, especially by defense lawyers. I have nothing but some personal experience to back that up, but I think a study would prove it. It would be interesting for any lawyers around here to weigh in on that...?

You will get dismissed from jury cases more often and not have to be on jury duty. Some people would see that as a good thing.
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REP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:12 AM
Response to Original message
15. Boo Hoo Hoo
Poor widdle victimized Kenny Wiggins!

Men who have gone through divorce are more than five times more likely to commit suicide.

Gee, ya think that maybe, just maybe that men who have been divorced more than five times might have some personality disorder that leads to the suicide? Or is just those evil, wicked feminazis?
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I would take that with a grain of salt anyway
without a reputable UNBIASED source to back that up. I'd be surprised if it's accurate.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:34 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Found a study on the suicide rate of divorced men
Don't know much about the source but this study was cited several times on google

Men more likely to commit suicide after divorce, study finds
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:43 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. This is true of men who are widowed as well though...
There's a study cited in Susan Faludi's "Backlash" somewhere that examines the right-wing myth that women need to get married more than men. It found that women who never married had fewer health problems and lived longer than women who did. The opposite was true for men- married men lived longer and had fewer health problems. Widowed and divorced men are more likely to commit suicide and have poor health, while widowed and divorced women live longer than their married counterparts.
There is no implicit connection between trouble in family court and higher suicide rates among divorced men as the statistics cited in the original article disingenuously imply. The fact that divorced men are two and half times more likely to commit divorce could just as easily be attributed to general depression, loneliness and not having a women to do all the dishes as to struggles in family court. How many of those divorced suicidal men even had kids? Kenneth sure doesn't seem interested in telling us.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. That is very interesting, and certainly does put a different "spin" on
things, doesn't it. :D
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #15
47. Check your "5 times" comment. D minus on extrapolation.
Sorry. Try again.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #47
87. no skippy, the D minus goes to the idiot who wrote the article
sorry
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #15
116. Read for comprehension
"Men who have gone through divorce are more than five times more likely to commit suicide."

This does not say "divorced five times."
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:29 AM
Response to Original message
17. Oh, cry me a river
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 04:31 AM by Lexingtonian
What the article doesn't talk about is a lot more of the pathological behavior on the part of the, well, fathers. And it's full of all kinds of unstated assumptions and denies all the quite unmanly misbehavior on the part of the men involved in this sort of %$#&. And yes, I'm a guy and have heard it all and seen more than I want to.

The author doesn't even, for obvious reasons, get into the major issue in the courtrooms: physical and sexual abuse.

Hell, somebody has to act in the best interests of the child. Funny how Mr Kenneth Wiggins figures that those are always identical with his wishes and needs and desires.

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SmileyBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. Oh, so those child welfare pricks are all good and righteous, then???
They're the most corrupt and criminal sector of our governmental system.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #21
34. And the men involved are all angels

-always on the lookout to achieve the best possible outcome for others, especially the children. Yeah right.

Most children do survive child welfare intervention, perhaps embittered but with all their potential fragile but still basically intact. I'd take that over handing child custody to the unscrupulous, soul-killing, selfpitiful, bitter, domineering sort of men any day.

Other than your second hand perspective and the Machiavellian language of your relatives, do you have relevant evidence that what you heard about was really a gross mismatch of power in the courtrooms and lawyers' offices? That it wasn't just compensatory measures to counter those advantages men get from the process?
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #34
180. why is this the only issue on DU where personal experience is
dismissed as irrelevant? whenever this issue comes up, there are always DUers who personally know a man who has been royally screwed by a woman. they share their knowledge at it's dismissed out of hand.

i know it's not overwhelming evidence but it is evidence of injustice.
yet there is always some people who just refuse to accept there is ever a problem in which the woman might be more than halfway the problem?
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #180
187. because an anecdote is not evidence
anecdote:
a usually short narrative of an interesting, amusing, or biographical incident.

anecdotal:
1 a : of, relating to, or consisting of anecdotes <an anecdotal biography> b : ANECDOTIC 2 <my anecdotal uncle>
2 : based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers <anecdotal evidence>
3 : of, relating to, or being the depiction of a scene suggesting a story
bold emphasis is mine....

evidence:
1 a : an outward sign : INDICATION b : something that furnishes proof : TESTIMONY; specifically : something legally submitted to a tribunal to ascertain the truth of a matter
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SmileyBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #187
232. My communications professor would disagree with you.
And so would most other communications majors.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #232
291. ROTFLOL!
Your communications professor would disagree?? ROTFL! Well WTF?!?! LOL! In THAT case ... :eyes:

La di fucking da! LOL!


Pssst! I wouldn't use that line again. It just shot the holy hell out of what little credibility you had left.


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SmileyBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:35 AM
Response to Original message
20. This isn't a right-wing, left-wing issue.
I'm as liberal as they come, but even I realize that when it comes to the paternity and divorce courts, men are getting the shaft.

And I'm not gonna listen to any defense from you on behalf of child services. My mother worked for the MN child services office for 10 years, and she always told me that they were ultimately in the business of taking children from families due to fabricated or trumped-up abuse charges.

You wouldn't believe the stories I was told.
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #20
29. i saw a divorce hearing
a man who presented evidence that he was unempolyed and dna evidence wich proved he was not the father of the child was ordered to pay $2,000 a month
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. Happens quite often -- proves the system is flawed.
Dad when such things happen.
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. this is one reason why
i do not wish to marry, it all goes downhill when you buy a 2+ thousand dollar ring
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #36
42. I live in a happy marriage...
It is possible. Don't forgo the blessing of marriage. If you wish, there's always pre-nups.
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. yeah
but another reason i wish not to get married is because it brings the goverment into the bedroom, its just a bunch of legal crap, the only reason i should get married is because of the tax break
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #44
53. And companionship, children, happiness, etc.
And it increases your lifespan as well. I would never want to be single again. And whenever I do something nice for my spouse, it gives me a great feeling -- and when you are married you can have that feeling every day.
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:37 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. you can be
non single and not be married, if thats what you want to do go ahead, but a legal status and bringing legal complications into my life and the life of my love are not what i wish to do, were just as happy just being together
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #42
181. i live in a happy marriage too
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 02:47 PM by bearfartinthewoods
you need to take time to really get to know someone before you marry.

of coarse, it helps if you take the time to really know yourself as well.
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #33
38. Like Mr. Wiggins you are generalizing from anecdotal evidence.
Where are the statistics that prove this "happens quite often"? What are the details of the specific cases?
I'm afraid I'm not prepared to challenge the status quo on the basis of a few stories related by obviously biased participants in the events.
What percentage of divorced men are paying child-support for children who are not biologically their own? How long did they raise those children under the assumption that they were their biological children? (I don't support men who raise a kid for ten years, then divorce mommy, find out the kid isn't biologically their's and then cut the kid off for good. You assume 18 years financial responsibility for the kid when you take him or her home from the hospital or adopt. Biology is irrelevant. Why punish a kid you "love like your own" because mom lied?)
What are the current criteria for determining child care payments based on income?
Without these facts, all the stories in the world will never prove that the current system is flawed.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:25 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. Oh you are pulling this outta your ass
That is just nonsense. :eyes:
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:27 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. well, your female
so who's to say your just trying to protect your own interests?
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:31 AM
Response to Reply #45
48. well you're a male, and you just decided that the reason the
woman got custody in that case is because she fucked the judge. Give me a fucking break, who is blowing smoke up whose ass here with blatantly sexist nonsense. You have lost any credibility whatsoever in this conversation.
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. i diddent say it exactly
and you diddent see it happen, it was an obvious bias, merely observations from the actions, tones, and body language from the judge that represented to me that he either did it alot or was elseway being compensated.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #52
60. Here's what you said exactly
"the way the judge acted he made up his mind before he entered the room, and unless the woman just fucked the judge, than he is doing it quite regularly"

Clearly beyond the pale. Thus as I stated, nothing you have to say can possibly be given any credibility. Nor have you any expertise in reading tones or body language, I'd venture to guess, or have one iota of evidence to support a claim that the woman compensated the judge by fucking him or "elseway". Honestly, how can you even type that out with a straight face and deny it's not bullshit.

I'm done with you. This is absurd.
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #60
62. i an quite good at reading body tones and motions
i'm an avid pokep player and martal artist, have been since i was 8, its a trate you pick up with alot of practice, and perhaps i worded that statement wrong, but, i honestly dont care how you feel, i dont know you so why should your "feelings" bother me
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #62
64. I don't believe you
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #64
66. thats just closed mindedness
i have upset you so you just close your mind and live in disbelief, i have no sympathy or pity for you, as you are just lashing out cause i said something that you diddent like
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #66
69. I can live with that
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. so be it
dont bother me any more
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #70
80. LOL! Well if what I have to say bothers you then that is YOUR problem
I'm not going anywhere!
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #80
84. your really hurting your credibility
by admitting to being petty and attacking me
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #84
89. I'll offer up my credibility for comparison next to yours ANY day
Christ, now you are repeating back to me the obvious note I made of your credibility. Are you going to come back now and say neener, neener, neener next? :eyes:

I thought you posted a half hour ago you were weary of this debate, you decided to leave, and declared victory. Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #89
93. i got bored and came back
lets see,
your credibility: openly saying that you only said some hatefull things out of spite
My credibility: defending my stance from observations that i have personally made
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #93
95. The alert button is down on the bottom to your left
Feel free to use it.
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:11 AM
Response to Reply #95
96. why
its more fun to debate
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:32 AM
Response to Reply #45
49. Ever notice we never hear of "deadbeat moms" - probably...
because those told to pay child support (as non custodial parents) are overwhelmingly men.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:33 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. More likely because...
it's the men who leave and don't look back.
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #51
54. there is that factor
but deadbeat dads also sounds better in the news.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #49
56. That's true. Most deadbeat parents are men.
There are FAR MORE men paying (or refusing to pay) child support than women. That's a fact of life. Get over it. Men don't get a free pass or a blank check on being called out for being deadbeats to satisfy your delicate sensibilities because the few women there are out there that are deadbeats are not strung up and publicly drawn and quartered to satisfy your need for a misogynist sense of revenge, power and control over women. Just doesn't work that way. Get used to it.

The fact that you would even want to go to such lengths to excuse men who do not support their children is quite revealing. It says much more about you than I'm sure you cared to expose.
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:49 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. i am verry open
i can be a cruel and cold man, or the most compassionate man on the planet, ask my 3 cats and ask my enemies, just depends on what side you get on, but you also have to admit there is a bias in the court system
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. No, because there isn't a bias against men in court.
Injustices undoubtedly happen, but in a general sense men are given a fair shake. Just help/support the men who have been shafted and quit trying to act as though it's an epidemic. It only makes the men look childish. Anyone can get a raw deal, but anecdotal evidence does not a bias make.
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #58
59. perhaps
you have inspired me to actually research this further
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #56
67. You really like to portray women as victims...
deserving special status. That's about as 1950s as you can get. Wouldn't feminists be more consistent if they wanted to make the playing field level and not demand special treatment from the courts in matters of child custody? I think you hear more about deadbeat dads because men are less likely to have custody awarded to them than women are. That's just not fair.
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #67
68. how do i portray them as victims?
i'm actually portraying the man as in this insstance i have noticed as the victim
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #68
94. He wasn't responding to you
He was addressing me.

That's twice.

You can't even follow a fucking thread, much less make observations and read tones and body language in a court room.
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #94
153. Hey, don't be so mean to 7th_Sephiroth ...
She has been rather nice to both sides on this thread and doesn't deserve abuse for one mistake.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:45 AM
Response to Reply #67
79. Excuse me?
You are the one here with a right wing website promoting Republican talking points with a boat load of unsubstantiated hyperbolic horse shit about men being treated unfairly when in fact none of it is true.

That's about as 1950s as you can get?? Aren't YOU the one who blew a 15 year old syllabus with 40 year old data up MY ass?? Let me assure you, there is nothing 1950's about me!! Not a DAMN thing. I promise!

Psssst! Let me tell you a little secret, just between you and me. Feminists are not demanding "special treatment"; they are demanding "equal treatment". That's why we have these horse shit right wing websites cropping up, because men don't like it. The deck has always been stacked in the favor of men, and men would like to keep it that way. Women are not going to allow that, and we will remain consistent about that, make no mistake about it.

"I think you hear more about deadbeat dads because men are less likely to have custody awarded to them than women are." That's true, and most men don't contest the custody issue in the first place. Those who do contest the custody issue have a better than average success rate. See this snip post #61: (Sorry, no right wing talking points here)

"Fact: "Despite the powerful stereotypes working against fathers, they are significantly more successful than is commonly believed. The Massachusetts task force, for example, reported that fathers receive primary or joint custody in more than 70 percent of contested cases."

Schafran, Lynn Hecht, "Gender Bias in Family Courts," American Bar Association Family Advocate, Vol. 17, No. 1, p. 26

Ruth I. Abrams & John M. Greaney, Report of the Gender Bias Study of the Supreme Judicial Court 62-63 (1983), also citing similar finding from California and other parts of the nation.

Fact: "The various gender bias commissions found that at the trial court level in contested custody cases, fathers won more than half the time. This is especially significant in light of the fact that not only do fathers win more often in court when they take these cases to trial, but also that an overwhelmingly higher percentage of fathers gain primary custody -- by any means -- than were ever the primary caregiver of their children during marriage. Statistically, this dashes the argument that 'only the strongest cases are taken to trial,' and in fact indicates an extraordinary bias against mothers and the value of mothering and mothers' work."

liznote re the more than 40 state gender bias task force reports. Available from the National Judicial Education Program, 9 Hudson Street, New York, NY 10013"

http://www.thelizlibrary.org/liz/017.htm

bezdomny sez:
So in the 3.8% of divorce cases where fathers actually fight for custody they win 70% of the time. Hardly seems like an epidemic of sexism against men to me.

The fact that only 3.8% of men actually sue for custody of their kids is interesting as well in light of the "lack of dead-beat moms" malarkey.
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #79
82. thats not me
i'm 7th_sephiroth lady, your thinking pointus scroll up
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #82
90. I didn't respond to you
You are the one that is lost
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #90
92. looks like it
but you did respond back to my comments, so we are both lost
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #79
162. LOL! What??! Fathers receive primary OR joint custody


"fathers receive primary or joint custody in more than 70 percent of contested cases."

That means that that they get to see their kids at all... I'd like to see that stat broken apart into the eprcent that get visitation vs full custody.

So 30% of men get no visitation at all... 30% of men who go through divorce don't get to see their kids again.
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atre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #162
312. No, that's not what joint custody means
Custody relates not to vistation but rather to control of the child, the right to make decisions relating to the child's welfare. Even if the mom gets sole custody (let alone joint- where they share control), that does not preclude the dad from getting vistation rights.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #56
161. So it is misogyny to want women treated the same as men?


I thought that was the definition of equality.

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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #56
309. the percentage of deadbeats
is double for women, however.

Yes, men are mostly the ones ordered to pay child support. This is supposed to prove that men are somehow being favoured by family courts, I'm sure, but I can't see how.

But a great deal more women who are ordered to pay child support don't bother, on a percentage basis.
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Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #49
111. The big issue for fathers' rights activists...
their paycheques....golly, to think my money has to go to support my children. :eyes:

Ahhhh, look at the HUGE chunk me and my sister took out of my mom's paycheques. But, hmmm, she never snivelled and whined, she took CARE of things.




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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #111
117. No, I believe most would choose custody of their children...
if that were possible. So enough of the anti-male stuff. This was posted so people could see that there are injusticies in our court system and that conservates, liberals, blacks, whites and browns (mostly male ones) are getting treated unfairly -- and children are suffering as well. This should not bring out the "let's bash men crowd".
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #111
163. I do not think men mind supporting their kids in general.

It is being made to support their ex's ability to take their kids away from them that they dislike.

It would be like someone breaking into your house, stealing your stuff, then sending you a bill for the crowbar they used to bust your front door down.


And yes there are some dirtbag deadbeats out there, and I'm not defending them. However there are a hell of a lot of good dads who get f-ed over by the system... their roll as a father is reduced to being an ATM machine.


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SmileyBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #111
196. Why not let the father take care of the kids...
...in every instance where it's proven that the father is the better parent?? Too many cases have popped up where the mother gets custody of the children even though it's blatantly obvious that the father is the one who's more responsible.

I'm looking at reality, here. I'm not being misogynistic. Call me a sexist pig if you want. I've been called a lot worse. A lot of fathers are better parents than the respective mothers. A lot of mothers ARE better parents (and in many cases MUCH better) than the respective fathers. So why not just GO THROUGH THE LEGAL PROCESS to find out who IS the better parent, and give custody??? GEE, I NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT!!!!!

But it's NOT happening.
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Clark Can WIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #49
287. There are some deadbeat "moms" who are just as
morally ugly as any deadbeat bio donor. They should have their feet in the fire the same way.
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #41
61. You are talking about one judge in one case.
Here's an interesting website:

"Fact: "Despite the powerful stereotypes working against fathers, they are significantly more successful than is commonly believed. The Massachusetts task force, for example, reported that fathers receive primary or joint custody in more than 70 percent of contested cases."

Schafran, Lynn Hecht, "Gender Bias in Family Courts," American Bar Association Family Advocate, Vol. 17, No. 1, p. 26

Ruth I. Abrams & John M. Greaney, Report of the Gender Bias Study of the Supreme Judicial Court 62-63 (1983), also citing similar finding from California and other parts of the nation.

Fact: "The various gender bias commissions found that at the trial court level in contested custody cases, fathers won more than half the time. This is especially significant in light of the fact that not only do fathers win more often in court when they take these cases to trial, but also that an overwhelmingly higher percentage of fathers gain primary custody -- by any means -- than were ever the primary caregiver of their children during marriage. Statistically, this dashes the argument that 'only the strongest cases are taken to trial,' and in fact indicates an extraordinary bias against mothers and the value of mothering and mothers' work."

liznote re the more than 40 state gender bias task force reports. Available from the National Judicial Education Program, 9 Hudson Street, New York, NY 10013"

http://www.thelizlibrary.org/liz/017.htm

So in the 3.8% of divorce cases where fathers actually fight for custody they win 70% of the time. Hardly seems like an epidemic of sexism against men to me.

The fact that only 3.8% of men actually sue for custody of their kids is interesting as well in light of the "lack of dead-beat moms" malarkey.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #61
65. Thanks. Good site to save for future reference.
:thumbsup:
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #61
71. But lawyers often advise male clients they have little hope...
of victory in cases involving custody of young children. So many men are unwilling to fork over thousands of dollars to lose a battle in court. I did know a guy a few years back that was advised by everyone not to fight for custody of his 4 sons and that he would lose. He did it anyway out of principle and did lose -- the judge even said that young children should be raised by the mother.

Several years later he took her back to court and since the children did not want to live with her they testified against wanting to live with her in court. She lost custody completely and one of the sons only visits her because the father tells him to do so. Two of the others want little to do with her either.

Lesson? Stand up for your principles and let the children know you want them. In time, you will be the winner.
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:22 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. that is correct
you must not back down, and you must fight for what you believe in
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:32 AM
Response to Reply #71
74. But the question at hand is whether or not courts are biased
in favor of men or women. What lawyers tell their clients is irrelevant. The fact is that when custody is taken to court, men win 70% of the time. The anecdote you relate supports this. The second time he took his wife to court, he won custody.

I'm all in favor of men letting their children know they want them. It is simply not true, however, that US courts (or even family courts) are biased in favor of women. The occasional man may get a raw deal but the fact remains that when men take custody disputes to court they win the majority of the time.
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #74
75. Sorry, seen it too many times...
And men do get the raw deal. They go in like a visiting team on the rival's home turf. For a man to win he must be brutal, uncompromising and document everything! That's just not right.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #75
88. well if you have "seen it" then fuck the statistics, it must be true
LOL
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #75
165. SOemtimes even that's not enough....


As in the case of my friend who has proof his ex was ploting to murder him... and she still got custody.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #61
164. primary [b]OR[/b] joint custody


That emans 70% get at least some level of visitation. I would like to see that borken down into different levels of visitiation and full custody.

And the other side of that is that 30% never get to see their kids.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #38
160. And what about the mom who lied?


What punishment does the court have for her cheating and lying... oh they say the cheating liar is the best parent, and make the man give her a check each month.


No that's not sexist at all.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #29
134. Hard for me to believe
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 10:38 AM by Yupster
that a woman can have an affair with her boyfriend, have a kid, leave her husband, and then get a court to force the ex to pay child support for the boyfriend's kid when the wife, kid and boyfriend are living together.

There was a celebrated case not far from me in Big Spring Texas that made one of the 60 Minutes clone shows a year or two ago. The ex was refusing to pay, and was having his wages taken, and was being threatened with prison. Just seems insane to me.

Saw another show where in California, there was apparently a law that if the state orders you to pay child support, you have a certain length of time to challenge the ruling, otherwise you default your right to protest. Anyway, the show had a whole group of men who had the same name as someone else and they had gotten child support orders, didn't know anything about them so threw them out, and were now having their wages taken to pay for kids that they had never heard of and had no relation to. They had the state official on and he said the judgement was for not complying with the law and whether the person was the father or not had nothing to do with it. One guy was a 70 year-old Mexican immigrant who was being charged child support for a two year old and his 21 year old mom who he lived 100 miles away from and he never met.

This was a couple of years ago. Hopefully such stupidity has been changed.

I got to correct my first subject line. Thanks for the edit of subject addition.
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philosophie_en_rose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #134
199. It's because of the assumed "father"
When a child is born to a married couple, the husband is usually assumed to be the legal father. That can also harm a mother's custody, if the husband petitions for custody.

Contrary to what you hear on FoxNews and the like, paternity actions can change who the courts view as the legal father. In fact, the increased financial resources of men leave many women vulnerable to constant motions to modify child support, custody, etc.

Consider the source. Everyone who has a poor result in a legal action believes that they are being screwed.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #199
203. Each state is different, but what the show said
was that you have a certain amount of time to challenge paternity if you're married. If you don't challenge by that time, the kid is yours.

Therefore, the wife can hide an affair from you, lie about it, and then come back and get child surrport for the kid that she said was yours but DNA testing proves it's her honey's.

That just seems an insane abuse of a person to me.

It's bad enough the wife cheated, lied, then left him, but then he ends up paying. It's insane.
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Clark Can WIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #203
289. you are forgetting the CHILD in this equation
What age should be the earliest or the latest for making a child pay for the sins of the parent(s)?

If a child is eight years old and found not to be the bio child of the husband, should that child lose his dad because of the sins of his mother?

It's hard enough to keep fathers interested in their kids without financial ties, let alone those nightmarish circumstances.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #289
298. I think the ex-dad
should have visitation rights if he and the kid both wants them since he was the kid's dad for 8 years.

Financial obligations to pay for your wife and her boyfriend's kid? No way.
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #134
201. Not too surprising when a rape victim can be sued ...
for child support. I heard of a 12 year old boy who was molested, the underage (but much older) girl got pregnant and then the 12 year old had to pay child support.

Here's an interesting site:

http://www.ageofconsent.com/comments/numberthirtysix.htm
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #29
159. My buddy is going through a divorce right now....
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 01:47 PM by TLM

he has proof that his wife was plotting to kill him... and the courts still gave custody to his wife. He is fighting that now, and it has cost him everything.

And I see women here act like men in divorces cases are automaticallly abusive monsters and they insult anybody who questions that... it pisses me off.


My folks divorced when I was 3... and as I grew I watched how the system screwed my father over again and again. He never missed a single child support payment, even when he was out of work... and they still set up a wage garnishing set up that caused his employers to assume he was some deadbeat dad.

WHy was he set up on this... because he once sent in a child support payment EARLY.

And when my mother decided she wanted to move... screw Dad's weekend visitation, she moved to another state half way across the country, and there was nothing he could do.

So don't tell me that divorce and custody laws are fair to men... I've lived it, and seen first hand just how unfair they are.



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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 05:16 AM
Response to Reply #20
37. Not in a general sense they're not...
Poor people and people of color get the worst deals in court, generally. Women and their children are more likely to fall below the poverty line after divorce, while men tend to maintain their standard of living. (all that boo-hooing about money just isn't true) .::Link 1::. .::Link 2::.

Child protection agencies, whatever they are called in your particular state, are more likely to interfere in the lives of poor, single, or non-white mothers. .::Link::.

Men aren't as happy being single, ergo the higher rate of suicide among divorced men. Some years back, different study said that married men report being happier with their lives overall, while single women report being happier with their lives overall.

Scott Coltrane, chairman of the sociology department at the University of California, Riverside, and co-author of the college text Sociology of Marriage & the Family: Gender, Love and Property:

Different studies show different things, Coltrane says. But overall, the findings tend to be more positive for men. "This is not to say that marriage does not have a beneficial impact for women. Those benefits are just not as positive as those for men."

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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:25 AM
Response to Original message
73. i have grown weary of debating this further
so i will leave you on this note, the courts tend to lean twards the natural birth moter due to the misconception of motherly intuition
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #73
76. No.
The courts lean towards the man 70/30 when he actually fights for custody of his children. 96.2% of men don't and they aren't all doing it based on their lawyer's advice.
The fact that women get custody in most cases has very little to do with the courts at all. The majority of men do not seek full custody of their children after a divorce (I'm not saying that there aren't a few great, responsible, involved fathers out there) and many who do do so because they want to continue controlling the mother, not because they are interested in the day-to-day care of their children.
If more men fought for custody, more men would get it. It's a simple as that. It's not some feminist legal conspiracy.
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #76
78. your useing a bit of trickery
your just saying in cases where they fight beyond the judges initial rleing
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #78
86. Nothing up my sleeves.
"In order to support the "mothers win/bias against dads" fallacy, fathers' rights advocates lump settlement cases with cases that must be decided by a judge. They don't say that the vast majority of cases (more than 90%) do not appear in front of a judge. Those that did in the Maccoby and Mnookin study accounted for only about 3.7% of the couples examined."

More than 90% of cases are settled out of court. Of the 3.7% where custody is challenged in court:

"(of 60 mothers who had been their children's primary caretakers and whose custody was challenged, 70% lost custody to fathers, "83% of whom had not previously been involved in primary child care, 67% of whom had paid no child support, 62% of whom had physically abused their wives during marriage or divorce, 57% of whom had engaged in anti-mother brainwashing campaigns, and 37% of whom had kidnapped their children")

Nancy Polikoff, Why Are Mothers Losing? 7 Women's Rts. L. Rep. 235, 236 (1982)"
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #86
91. lets look at your numbers
have you personally verified them? when were they put down, and is the source bias? (it looks to me it was written by a feminist in 1982) a
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #91
97. OK.
"A study by the Massachusetts State Supreme Court Taskforce on Gender found that fathers who contest custody in Massachusetts win sole or joint physical custody more than 70% of the time (Jacobs, 1997:11)."

"When fathers do contest custody, studies show they win anywhere from 50 to 75 percent of the time. Maccoby and Mnookin studied 930 divorce cases in California in the 1980's and found that only 14 of these ended up before a judge. But of those cases, fathers won custody 50% of the time (Maccoby & Mnookin 1992)."

"Statistics showing that women gain custody of their children 90% of the time are deceptive. These data reflect the fact that over the past 50 years, fathers rarely asked for custody. A study of Utah custody decisions between 1970-1993 shows that only 13% of fathers requested custody (Mason and Quirk 1997: 217)."

These are mid-90s studies. Do you have any evidence that things have changed substantially since 1997?

And "feminist" isn't a dirty word.
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:24 AM
Response to Reply #97
98. ok
first part it isint national, its just in one state

second part was a study of 1980's cases in one state, from a different legal era

Third is yet another non-national study and doesent reflect the entire country or reflect the current time period

and feminist is only a dirty word if your out to be more than equal, most feminists that i have met have the mindset of that women have historically had the short end of the stick that they are trying to force men to have the short end of the stick
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #98
101. Do you have any statistics that contradict these?
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 07:38 AM by bezdomny
Yes, they are from 3 different states but they are all finding essentially the same thing. Massachussets, California and Utah are about as different as three states can be and yet in all three the same trend is observed. There are probably national studies but at 4:30 in the morning I'm too lazy to look them up. If you aren't satisfied by three state studies showing the same thing, then you are determined not to be satisfied by anything. Why don't you find me some studies that indicate a contrary trend?

Do you have any evidence of significant changes in these trends since 1997? What do you have in mind when you talk about a different "legal era"? What evidence do you have that women are more likely to be awarded custody in 2003 (after the real awakening of the men's rights movements and the backlash against feminism) than they were in 1997, 1992, the '80s or the '70s?

Point two is that you obviously don't know many feminists or are prejudging the ones you do know based on a stereotype that allows you to discount their opinions without really understanding them.
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #101
103. not at the moment but
find me a national study, of the last 5 years, from a non-partisan source (i'll take a womens organization study with less than a grain of salt) and i will change my position on the matter

as for the feminists, i am making an observation from the ones i know or have met 9 out of 10 just want some form of revenge and think because thier a woman and women have been treated poorly in the past, that they have the right to perform poor work and get paid equally (or more).
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #103
106. You offer me nothing but anecdotal lazy BS
and expect me to spend hours laying studies before you? Different states have different divorce laws and procedures which makes a national study difficult to compile. You find me some evidence of what has changed in the past 6 years to invalidate a 1997 study.
And the Massachusetts State Supreme Court Taskforce on Gender is not a "womens organization study".

You do some homework and then we'll talk.

I maintain that you clearly don't know what a feminist is. Why don't you try defining feminism and we'll all have a chuckle?

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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #106
108. Feminisim
in the truest form it is when females have been treated as non equals and campaign and protest to become equals to males in pay, legal status and legal choices.
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #108
109. Do you disagree with that premise?
If not, you're a feminist.
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #109
110. i dont disagree with it
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 08:00 AM by 7th_Sephiroth
if i were an employer my pay and hireing system would be purely on skill, but like i said, i have known women who warp that view, like this one co-worked i had who was an open feminist, she made sure everyone knew it, she did that so much she neglected most of her work, and when anyone complained about it she threatened to sue for sexual discrimination, even when a Woman said it, she even sued to get a pay raise when she found out that i, and other men (who do totally different work, i was the i/t guy and the other men were engineers, she was the boss's assistant) were getting paid more.
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #110
169. Right, _one coworker_
that is not 9 out of 10 feminists you know- especially when you apply your own definition of feminism.

This is part of a pattern of gross generalization from anecote on your part which is not standing you in good stead on this thread.

I could tell you about the guy I worked with who was caught sleeping on the job twice and was still made employee of the month ahead of me (when I set up and ran an entire department on my own- a job that was later allocated to three people.) Can we conclude from that that all employers in this country are biased outrageously towards men? Why not? Because my personal experience is not indicative of broad national trends. It's just my experience.

Ditto your experience of feminists. You're a feminist and I bet 99.9% of the people you know are too. Do 90% of those people (including you) believe women deserve more rights than men? Didn't think so.
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7th_Sephiroth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #169
183. merely one story
i live in pensacola, and there are alot of feminists, and i have dated/talked to alot
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:54 AM
Response to Original message
85. don't want kids in fatherless homes? Stay in your marriage
women and children are the poorest people in this country. Men don't suffer financially the way women and children do.

What shit
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #85
105. Could not have said it better...
So many people shouldn't get married in the first place because they aren't ready for it...
Marriage is wonderful but it is a lot of work for both parties involved.



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BiggJawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #85
107. Oh, yeah, like *I* had any say in the matter....
She thought I was "boring" and one of my (so-called) "friends" was more exciting, so I got the heave-ho.
Second time around, I got kicked to the curb for a big-tittied Dyke half her age....

"Stay in your marriage"...What a load of simplistic RW "Focus on the Family" style CRAP! D'ja plagerize that gem from James Dobson?

You should know better, Cheswick!
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #85
166. And when the woman is the one who wants to leave...


then what? What of the men who WANT to stay married and want to be a father to their children?


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KG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
100. what an absurd notion -
:eyes:
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Darth_Kitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
102. Give me a break
:nopity:

Men are such pitiful victims of an unfeeling and uncaring society? They have NO control over how they lead their lives? :eyes:

Maybe a lot of these guys should take more day to day interest in the lives of their children BEFORE the divorce before they start crying foul.

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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
104. Apparently you don't read much history
In the not so distant past, Married Men had supremacy over their wives and the children. Women could not divorce easily, nor did they have any services to help them escape a brutal or loveless marriage because they would have to leave their children behind.

The funny part is that a lot of men back then left their wives and children without any repercussions.

Times changed...for the better.

Today rational loving parents try to stay in their marriage and if they can't they share joint custody and financial support.

The funny thing is that the men and women who complain the most about not seeing their kids are those who have set up "mental barriers"...they are the people who will not compromise so if they can't have everything...they get nothing and then they bitch.

My husband's parents divorced and shared custody. In fact my father-in-law had primary custody, caring for the boys the majority of the time. They spent summers with their mother. Today they have a relatively healthy relationship with both parents. They KEY was that the parents cared more for the kids than themselves.
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Mandate My Ass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
112. real stats on sexism and poverty in America -- not just the courts
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 08:01 AM by Monica_L
Poverty Among Women

There are more women in the total population of the United States than men and there are more poor women than poor men in the United States. The total population of the United States is 266,218,000 and of that number 135,865,000 are females and 130,353,000 are males. The total population of poor in the United States is 36,529,000 which is 13.7% of the total population. There are 20,918,000 females that are poor which is 15.4% of the total female population and 57.2% of the total poverty population. There are 15,611,000 males who are poor which is 12.0% of the total population of males and 42.7% of the total poverty population. So, Table 1 shows that gender plays a role in the poverty profile and women are more likely to be poor than men.

There are a number of factors associated with the high rate of women being poor. Mothers raising children are the hardest hit with poverty which makes family status the main factor. Within the group of mothers raising children, young mothers raising young children emerge as a subgroup with the most critical need.

Although many mothers raising children are not poor, mothers who are also single while raising children add another factor associated with women being poor. Sometimes referred to as father absent families and female headed families the group of single mothers raising children can be further broken into subgroups of divorced mothers, never married mothers and unwed mothers.


Race is also a significant factor related to women in poverty. There are larger numbers of white women in poverty but black and Hispanic women have a higher poverty rate than white women (see Table 1). There are 111,318,000 in the total white female population and 14,012,000 or 12.6% are in poverty. Of the 18,203,000 total black female population 5,771,000 or 31.7% are poor. Of the 14,417,000 total Hispanic female population 4,618,000 or 32.0% are poor.

Table 1. Population Groups, Females Compared with Males
Total Population 266,218,000 Total Population of Poor 36,529,000 (13.7%)
Total Population Females 135,865,000 Population of Poor Females 20,918,000 (15.4%)
White 111,318,000 White 14,012,000 (12.6%)
Black 18,203,000 Black 5,771,000 (31.7%)
Other 6,344,000 Other 1,135,000 (17.9%)

*Hisp Or 14,417,000 *Hisp Or 4,618,000 (32.0%)
Compared to
Total Population Males 130,353,000 Population of Poor Males 15,611,000 (12.0%)
White 108,338,000 White 10,638,000 (9.8%)
Black 15,908,000 Black 3,923,000 (24.7%)
Other 6,107,000 Other 1,050,000 (17.2%)

*Hisp Or 15,197,000 *Hisp Or 4,079,000 (26.8%)
*Hispanics may be of any race.
Source: U.S. Bureau of Census, March 1997 Current Population Survey

The working status of women contributes to their poverty status. In many instances the husband bread winner is not a part of the family portrait which creates the single female head of household. So, in many instances, women are being forced to choose between working and being the full time homemaker. Then, the type of jobs single heads of household can get depends on their level of education. Often, women have low levels of education and they get low skill level jobs that pay low wages. To further exacerbate the financial stress many jobs pay women 60% of the income they pay men for doing the same job (Shaw, 1996 and Ropers, 1991).

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/5000/5705.html
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:11 AM
Response to Original message
113. I didn't bother reading...
... this screed, it is too long.

But anyone who thinks the courts aren't biased in a sexist way against men in divorce situations (I'm speaking of Texas, this is all state law and policy) has never been in a divorce.

The courts and the process are built on the ASSUMPTION that:

1) the mother is the better parent and

2) the father is a deadbeat.

For those of you who think that is automatically true, you are a sexist, end of story.

Lucky for me, when I got a divorce my ex and I amicably set up our own visitation/financial situation that was completely fair and has worked flawlessly for 7 years. An attorney I consulted. after I told him what we wanted in the decree, said there were 2 judges out of the 7 possible who would likely approve it. He said, paraphrased, "it's the luck of the draw, if you get one of these two you'll probably be ok, otherwise you will have to add this and that".

A divorce is a legal proceeding and like all legal proceedings it should be conducted by people without assumptions and granting due process. That's nothing like what we have now.



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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #113
147. More anecdotal evidence
But anyone who thinks the courts aren't biased in a sexist way against men in divorce situations . . . has never been in a divorce.

WRONG ... I've been in a divorce, my ex had three children with his first wife. (I'm child free, I had no children with him.) My experiences helping him (while we were married) take care of child support and custody issues, dealing with Friend of the Court, going to trial, showed no bias against him ... Friend of the Court was extrememly helpful to us when his first ex would not let the children come and visit us, per the divorce agreement.

I found it very interesting that he made her "track him down" and then paid child support after his wages were garnished for it. He was almost never interested in calling his kids (they were out of state) because then he'd have to talk to her--only enough to ask to speak to the children, she never refused him that much. He'd complain and cry how he missed his kids, she was a bitch, blah blah blah, but ONLY when he was drunk!

I felt bad for his boys ... IMHO, neither of their parents was worth spitting on if they were on fire!!

Took me a while to see what kind of man he really was, I was young and foolish ... so glad I divorced him, and really really glad I didn't have children.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #147
167. perhaps...
... I should have been more clear, I mean IN THE STATE OF TEXAS.

As I said, divorces are all a state function.
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
114. It's sad to see that you have found so much support
for this misogynist BS, but this isn't the first time DU posters have disappointed me. Fact after fact has been presented to refute these statements, but many of the posters have simply decided to ignore them and rely on such statements as I believe, I feel, I've seen, in my experience...

Don't bother me with facts, I'm trying to make an argument here. :eyes:

Case in point, let's look at this statement:
"We teach our sons to distrust women, fear marriage and hate government, and we teach our daughters to lie, cheat and use marriage to steal money."

In it men are portrayed as VICTIMS of women, society and government, while women are liars and cheaters who STEAL money?!?!?! :wtf:

No, there's no misogyny here.
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #114
118. some people here believe the child support hoax.

http://www.fraternizing.org/cgi-bin/D.PL?d=frater.a.hoax

Facts in the first paragraph, shooting down a much-perpetrated hoax in the rest!


"Lenore Weitzman's Child Support Hoax

Two out of three times, the person filing for divorce is the mother, with the father opposed. The reason so many women are filing for divorce, usually for very trivial reasons, is because of the enormous increase in child support payments that most states have mandated. Most mothers getting a divorce make the calculation that they can be free of the commitments of marriage by filing for divorce and then collecting lucrative child support payments, which they can spend on their own lifestyle in any way they want.

The reasons that so many states enacted these substantial child support increases is because of a hoax perpetrated by Lenore Weitzman, then an associate professor at Harvard University, in her 1985 book, The Divorce Revolution: The unexpected social and economic consequences for women and children in America.

Weitzman's principal conclusion was that, after a divorce, "on the average, divorced women and the minor children in their households experience a 73 percent decline in their standard of living in the first year after divorce. Their former husbands, in contrast, experience a 42 percent rise in their standard living."

Weitzman's conclusion resonated with credulous press and legislators who are willing to believe anything, no matter how silly, from feminist sources. Her conclusion was widely quoted, and it inspired huge increases in mandated child support payments in many states.

The problem is that the conclusion, and in fact, most of the book, was a hoax. Her conclusion was supposedly based on statistical analysis of survey data, but no one else who analyzed the same data could duplicate her results.

Researchers started calling immediately seeking clarification, but she stalled, prevaricated, and lied for ten years. Only in 1996 did she acknowledge that her conclusions were wrong."

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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #118
119. Life is short
And I'm not wasting any more time with your misogynist attitudes. You haven't addressed ANY of the statistical data that others have put forth here refuting your claims.

You clearly won't be swayed, so just go ahead and enjoy your victimization at the hands of those big, bad feminazis. :-)
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #118
121. Why not move to Iran where you can enjoy their rules
1. The easy ...I divorce you, I divorce you, I divorce you Divorce
2. Complete control over your wife and children
3. Honor killings in case that special woman in your life gets out of control.
4. You can marry a girl as young as nine

It might take some special work to get you a visa but I bet they would welcome you with open arms.
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #121
128. That's as silly as asking a progressive to move to Sweden.
This is my country. If I see something wrong with it, I'll do my best to fix it.
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #128
132. So what your saying is that you want to make the US less progressive
towards women?

I guess we should just give up our right to vote and just go back to the good ole days when our fathers, husbands and brothers had control over us and our children were not our "property"...
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #132
144. Say what?
How does equality mean turning back the clock?
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #118
133. Oh good. Another right wing source
loaded with unsubstantiated hyperbole and highly inflammatory mysogynist talking points, none of which are true.

You came to the wrong place to peddle right wing wares. It doesn't sell here. And I see you are going to a lot of trouble to avoid the posts here that provide verifiable facts and reputable sources that decisively discredit this horseshit you are shoveling.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #118
136. Women get divorced just so they can
live the plush life on child support payments?

Maybe in Bizarro World, but not in any real world that I've ever lived in.
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veracity Donating Member (993 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
124. Puleeez!
Women pay child support where men get custody all the time. The courts once granted women custody almost exclusively because they were not the working parent. Men get off very easy by sending checks. Women have all the responsibility of child rearing and nurturing....while working full time in most cases today.

The move towards joing custody has eliminated a lot of the over burdening of one parent. or the bias courts may have. It seems that you've had a particularly ugly divorce/custody situation. Children from fatherless homes are growing in number because men want to play at sex without bearing responsibility for the consequences. Tough. Children are never fatherless. It's just that 'fatherhood' is not an act of sex, it is a lifetime of concern. Deal with it.
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #124
130. But men don't get custody as much as women...
so what's your point?
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #130
135. Men don't ASK for custody most of the time
and you are not reading the posts here. When men DO challenge custody, they win 70% of the time. You just keep ignoring the facts that don't fit your argument.
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TLM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #135
168. THat's very misleading... 70% of the time


what they get is some level of visitiation... not custody.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #168
171. Nope, look again
You skipped over the posts that don't fit your poor male victim tune:

From post #61

Fact: "Despite the powerful stereotypes working against fathers, they are significantly more successful than is commonly believed. The Massachusetts task force, for example, reported that fathers receive primary or joint custody in more than 70 percent of contested cases."

Schafran, Lynn Hecht, "Gender Bias in Family Courts," American Bar Association Family Advocate, Vol. 17, No. 1, p. 26

Ruth I. Abrams & John M. Greaney, Report of the Gender Bias Study of the Supreme Judicial Court 62-63 (1983), also citing similar finding from California and other parts of the nation.

Fact: "The various gender bias commissions found that at the trial court level in contested custody cases, fathers won more than half the time. This is especially significant in light of the fact that not only do fathers win more often in court when they take these cases to trial, but also that an overwhelmingly higher percentage of fathers gain primary custody -- by any means -- than were ever the primary caregiver of their children during marriage. Statistically, this dashes the argument that 'only the strongest cases are taken to trial,' and in fact indicates an extraordinary bias against mothers and the value of mothering and mothers' work."

liznote re the more than 40 state gender bias task force reports. Available from the National Judicial Education Program, 9 Hudson Street, New York, NY 10013"

http://www.thelizlibrary.org/liz/017.htm
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #168
172. Nope, look again
You skipped over the posts that don't fit your poor male victim tune:

From post #61

Fact: "Despite the powerful stereotypes working against fathers, they are significantly more successful than is commonly believed. The Massachusetts task force, for example, reported that fathers receive primary or joint custody in more than 70 percent of contested cases."

Schafran, Lynn Hecht, "Gender Bias in Family Courts," American Bar Association Family Advocate, Vol. 17, No. 1, p. 26

Ruth I. Abrams & John M. Greaney, Report of the Gender Bias Study of the Supreme Judicial Court 62-63 (1983), also citing similar finding from California and other parts of the nation.

Fact: "The various gender bias commissions found that at the trial court level in contested custody cases, fathers won more than half the time. This is especially significant in light of the fact that not only do fathers win more often in court when they take these cases to trial, but also that an overwhelmingly higher percentage of fathers gain primary custody -- by any means -- than were ever the primary caregiver of their children during marriage. Statistically, this dashes the argument that 'only the strongest cases are taken to trial,' and in fact indicates an extraordinary bias against mothers and the value of mothering and mothers' work."

liznote re the more than 40 state gender bias task force reports. Available from the National Judicial Education Program, 9 Hudson Street, New York, NY 10013"

http://www.thelizlibrary.org/liz/017.htm
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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #168
174. Nope...
70% of the time they get joint or sole custody. Joint custody is not the same as "some level of visitation".
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wyethwire Donating Member (648 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
125. The fatherhood movement ...
went out the door with drum circles and "Iron John" poetry
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
126. Why are some people being so closed-minded on this issue?
What motivates one to totally ignore fellow posters who have first-hand experience of sexism in family courts, articles that point it out and any other evidence? Again, why be devisive on this issue? It's not a conservative, liberal thing -- in fact, conservatives are the ones who see women as traditionally the best caregivers for young children and it seems they would be the first to blame a man for a divorce and side with him against any wishes he has for custody.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #126
137. The only one being closed minded here is you
"first-hand experience" is not a basis for making the vast generalizations for the entire male population you are making. That's just bullshit - back it up with reliable and verifiable facts and sources. The "first hand evidence" cited here has been nothing short of groundless conjecture with no supporting fact and at times just plain absurd. If you insist this is not a "conservative, liberal thing" then why the hell do you only rely on right wing sources and right wing talking points and 40 year old data to make your arguments?

There are several posts in this thread that are well sourced and documented and that dispel all of the inflammatory nonsense you have offered and you have been provided with more than enough information to decide that for yourself. But you continue to go to great length to avoid any source that doesn't meet your low standard of male victim rhetoric based on inflammatory misogynist bullshit.

I suggest it is thee who is being closed minded about this issue and ignoring any evidence that doesn't fit the agenda you came here to sell.

"in fact, conservatives are the ones who see women as traditionally the best caregivers for young children and it seems they would be the first to blame a man for a divorce and side with him against any wishes he has for custody"

Prove it.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #126
140. On the other hand
I was watching a documentary on PBS last night about a program for battered women in rural West Virginia.

The women would try to leave their abusive husbands and take the children out of that hellish situation and file for divorce, only to have the husband use the old boys' network to get full custody of the children on the grounds that he had an income and his wife didn't. So the woman, in order not to lose her children, would go back to the abusive husband.

Okay, that's anecdotal evidence, just like the things that used to happen back in the nineteenth century when fathers automatically got custody. The British actress Fanny Kemble married an American from the South, and she eventually divorced him because he was abusive, and besides, she could no longer morally justify being the mistress of a slave plantation. Her ex retaliated by denying her the right even to see her two daughters. She once caught a glimpse of them in town, but their governess dragged them away and stuffed them into a waiting carriage and ordered the driver to race off.

The daughters must have been very "happy" under that arrangement, because the minute they came of age, they went to join their mother.

I'd say that if a father has been the primary caretaker of the children before the divorce: the one who takes primary responsibility for changing the diapers, getting up in the middle of the night when the kids are sick, making sure they washed, dressed and fed before the school bus arrives, going to parent teacher conferences, taking them shopping for school clothes, bathing them and putting them to bed--the hard stuff, not just the fun stuff like playing in the backyard--then he should have custody. If the parents have shared these duties pretty equally, then they should get joint custody. If the mother's been doing all the hard stuff, then she should get custody, unless she's been abusive.

I've seen some of these father's rights guys on cable access. They strike me as being precisely the type who would NOT be caught dead cleaning up after a kid who's thrown up all over their bed at 3AM. They seemed more likely to be the type who would tell their wife, "Shut that kid up so I can get some sleep."

They even spoke admiringly of the prewar Japanese system, in which fathers automatically got full custody of the children and mothers were never allowed to see them again.

While individual fathers may have been wronged, the sense I got from the "father's rights" advocates on cable access was that they thought of their wives and children as personal property and that their exes should be punished for having the gall to leave them.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
138. A few stats to back up a point
While I do believe that women are unfairly treated in most every aspect of our society, work, abuse, pay etc, etc, I do think that the orignal poster does have a point in this one case. Woment are awarded sole custody of children more often than men or joint custody(though there does seem to be a trend towards awarding more and more joint custody). I think that this problem arises out of the outdated sexist notions that because a person is female she must be a better parent.

Here are some statistics to back that notion up:

<http://www.gocrc.com/research/spcrc97.html>
<http://www.menweb.org/throop/custody-divorce/studies/whoGets.html> Yes, yes, I know this one is from "menweb", but please don't dismiss it out of hand. The study is valid, no matter where it appeared, and it was written by a woman.
<http://www.cga.state.ct.us/2000/rpt/olr/htm/2000-R-0578.htm>
<http://www.hec.ohio-state.edu/famlife/divorce/parent.htm>
<http://www.hec.ohio-state.edu/famlife/divorce/demo.htm>

This arguement is also backed by reams of anecdotal evidence. It is well known amongst attorneys which counties are more likely to award joint custody, sole custody by the father, or sole custody by the mother, and file their change of venues accordingly. It is also well known amongst attorneys, child service workers, and other interested parties that a mother has a much lower bar to clear in regards to her fitness as a parent as opposed to the father.

I also realize that there are issues of child support, relative living standards after divorce, domestic abuse and others intertwined with the issue of child custody. But please be honest enough with yourself to admit that in this single, stand alone issue, women have the upper hand. And realize why they have that upper hand, as I said before, the outdated sexist notion that because the person is female, she must be a better parent.

I can hear the replies now, "Well so what, its about damn time that women had the upper hand in something!" Normally I would agree with that sentiment, however not so in this case, because there is a child involved. All studies that have been done show that children do better in life both while their young and later on in life. I think more and more courts and child service agencies are starting to realize this, which is why we are seeing a rising trend of joint custody awards.

And before you start hurling the "misogynist" and "knuckle dragging Neanderthal" labels at me, realize that I've worked hard for women's rights, the ERA, against domestic abuse, and other womens' causes in my life. I was the first male allowed to work in our local women's shelter(I was skilled at ASL and they needed a translator), an experiment that paved the way for other non stereotypical, sensitive men to work there also(which has been a beneficial thing for many of the women requiring services there).

I think what we all need to do is drop the men vs women crap that arises in most custody battles and for the grownups to realize that there are children involved, who need both their mother AND their father to have the best shot at a fulfilling life.

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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #138
143. Interesting data -- a must read.
Great points you brought up.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
139. Flame-bait
Right-wing "wedge issue"
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tex46 Donating Member (37 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:48 AM
Response to Original message
141. Wow, so much hate
The simple fact of the matter is each gender has it's own cross-section of assholes. And to be blunt, in divorce and custody hearings the best interests' of the child trump everyone else's. There are organizations out there that are doing an amazing job as child advocates in court and as in-home case workers for families at high risk for neglect and abuse. Two of which are CASA and Healthy Families America. While they may only be tangentially related to this thread topic, I urge yall to please check them out.


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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
145. Well you had to know you'd be slaughtered!
Many states actually are starting to address this and creating programs to help Dads get an education and job training, just like they do moms.

What's funny to me is that a mom can be on welfare, which means she's unable to contribute financially to raising her child, and she's not a dead-beat. The Dad can be in the exact same financial situation and he is a dead-beat. OR, just as often, he's letting the child support accumulate because he's giving the money directly to the mom because welfare isn't enough to take care of her and the child in the first place.

People have all kinds of sympathy for that 40% of the working poor, until it comes to a child support bill. Daddy's aren't banks, it's sad we've reduced them to that.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
148. Fatherhood is a guess, motherhood is a fact
Yes, there is a pro-mother bias in our courts and laws, when it comes to child custody issues. That's a good thing - it's just a reflection of human nature. When men start bearing children and breast feeding them, we can revisit the issue.


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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #148
150. And that proves the mother is the superior parent?
Don't you realize how sexist that sounds? It sounds like a conservative with a 50s point of view towards womanhood.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #150
152. No, it doesn't mean that every mother is superior to every father
As I said, when men start bearing children, then they can be treated equally in child custody cases. The facts are most fathers want the mothers to have custody, and the real problem is men not paying child support, not having their kids taken away by evil women.

"Don't you realize how sexist that sounds? It sounds like a conservative with a 50s point of view towards womanhood."

It's old fashioned and conservative to point out that women BEAR CHILDREN and FEED them, and that men don't? I thought it was biology, not ideology?
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #152
155. Give the children to the best parent...
not the one who happens to have functional breasts. Men and women who are equal should be awarded joint custody, men who are better parents should get custody and women who are better parents should get custody. How much more fair cn one get than that?

And if the children are at least 8 - 10 their wishes should carry a lot of weight in the court. If they are older their wishes should determine custody. Heck, in many states you can have an abortion even if your parents don't want you to have one -- that should convey the maturity to choose who you live with.
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #148
220. Pathetic argument
So when women do the majority of the financial support of their children will give them the same rights as men? You wouldn't put up with that so look at your post again.
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #220
233. are we confusing custody with child support payments?
I'm sure a lot of men get shafted on custody payments. I'm not surprised nor concerned that there is a pro-mother bias in our court system in the issue of custody, that's all. You can talk all you want about theoretical equality between men and women, that doesn't change the fact that women bear and feed children.
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
156. Agent Provocateur Posting here
I always liked this one...
"Patrick McCarthy, president of New Jersey Citizens Against Paternity Fraud, the group sponsoring nine of these billboards across the state, says he's just trying to prevent the victimization of other men.

Three years ago, McCarthy found out he was not the biological father of his then-15-year-old daughter. Though divorced from her mother for well over a decade and not intimately involved in her life, McCarthy paid child support for the girl."
<snip>
"Angry men calling themselves "duped dads" are waging a state-by-state battle to change centuries-old laws they say are biased against them. Bills are pending in seven states — Florida, Michigan, New Jersey, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, and Vermont — that would relieve some men of paternity obligations based on DNA testing."

Maybe DNA testing should be mandatory at child support hearings?
http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/paternity021002.html


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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
158. How about a Non-Inflammatory Answer that actually addresses the post?
How about a Non-Inflammatory Answer that actually addresses the post?

When I read the title of this thread, I was instantly skeptical. I almost started to respond based on nothing but thread responses without even reading the original post. I think that happens quite a lot at DU – responding to threads that we’ve already made our minds about before we even click on the link.

So instead, I took the time to actually read the article by Kenneth C. Wiggins. And the first thing I noticed is that the claims aren’t extremely scientific. Let’s take a look:


We are destroying Fatherhood, and creating a nation of fatherless children.


This sentence has nothing to do with the issue of Child support unless Wiggins is suggestion that the demand of child support is itself destroying fatherhood and creating a nation of fatherless children, which is a pretty hard case to make.


It is a pretty simple scam game. If money is the root of all evil, federal funding is the root of this extortion. "Decide" that money is owed, and use the authority and power of the court to start collecting, under the "color of law", in the name of "our children's best."


The biggest problem that I have with Wiggins article is that it masks is basic self-interest and disregard for parental responsibility in the rhetoric of the “oppression” of men. There is one truth that should not be ignored, and that is that if fathers were not dodging their responsibility to support their children and take care of them, there would be no need for a system of laws that attempted to force them to do so. However, unfortunately we live in a world were men have sex with woman, father children and then feel no responsibility to care for their wellbeing.

I believe that man who father children have a financial obligation to those children. Period. Those of you who disagree with that should stop reading here, for this is not a position that is up for debate in my mind. I will however, go on to critique Wiggins’ faulty logic.


First, "who's the daddy?" You would think that in today's technology of blood and DNA testing that should be a simple matter. Forget it. A woman "accuses" a man of paternity, and the courts start to collect.


This is blatantly false. It is not true that a woman can simply point to a man and say “he’s the father” and the state starts to “collect.” If parternity is contested, then it goes through the legal process, often includes a hearing, and frequently includes a paternity test.

While murderers and rapists are now regularly set free by this marvelous DNA science, most courts will not allow this evidence past the door.

This is also untrue – there are a very large array of cases that have been overturned on appeal based on DNA evidence, admitted by the courts, and DNA evidence is routinely admitted in court cases today, although the evidence presented is susceptible to scrutiny and cross examination just like anything else.


In any other court, lying, false accusation, or "fraud upon the court" would carry some stiff penalties. Paternity fraud is common in a Family Court. A woman pays no penalty whatsoever. Should a man manage to get a DNA test order past the courts, proving undeniably, that he did not father these children, more often than not, the courts will ignore that evidence.


This is also untrue on many grounds. But first, I want to point out that Wiggins’ can’t have it both ways. A paragraph ago, Wiggins claims that DNA tests are not scientific, and frequently wrong when they show that a man is the father. Now here, he argues that when a DNA test shows that man is not the father it “proves undeniably, that he did not father these children.” This is just another example of how this piece is a un-factual, unscientific rant about how man shouldn’t have to support the children they run around fathering.



Child Advocate agencies go by different names in different states, but they operate pretty much the same. A caseworker "determines" custody, income and "parenting time". Most commonly, women are given custody by default (90%), no hearing, no investigation necessary. Judges rubber stamp the caseworker's determinations. Due process and evidence just went out the door.


Once again these are claims made with no evidence that completely fly in the face of the facts. I’ve been through a custody hearing process with a friend of mine, and most of Wiggins comments are ludicrous. If the man does not contest the findings, they anything can happen. However if the father, stands up and acknowledges that he is in fact the father, he can fight for custody and does have rights, which are honored. The problem is, that a man acknowledges that he is the father, he also must pay child support. Wiggins’ entire argument is basically centered around the fact that he wants to criticize the system for not giving men custody, when in fact if a man desired custody he would have to PAY to support the child! Wiggins’ wants DNA evidence to be used to prove a man is not the father, but not to prove that he is. Basically, Wiggins does not want men to bear any responsibility for the fucking that they do.


Common practice is to "impute wages." That's another term for "making it up."


And this is another term for “saying whatever you want with no factual evidence to support it.”

Jacking the price up is standard operating procedure to "create leverage."

And I’m sure Wiggins has very well documented factual statistical evidence to support this claim? Oh wait, no he doesn’t.


Of course your first instinct is to hire a lawyer and appeal this "mistake." First, the "court rules" prevent your lawyer from arguing for your rights or for things like examining evidence.


No it doesn’t. My word is as good as Wiggins’ word without any supporting evidence, with the one small advantage that I am right and he is wrong.


In fact the Child Advocates never bother to show up with anything like evidence. Your lawyer's sole role is to broker a deal, usually somewhere between their exaggerated demand and the truth. Lawyers that don't "play along" are quickly put out of business by Child Advocate offices and judges who abuse all of their clients in retribution.


Give me a break. Does Wiggins at any point intent to justify any of his bitter and inflammatory rhetoric with one shred of evidence?


At your appeal hearing, no evidence of income is presented by the Child Advocate prosecutor, no evidence of earning ability, no evidence of hireability. You do get to present your records. The judges get to make up their own evidence and enter it outside the courtroom, and, if that isn't good enough, they can, and do, just ignore your evidence.


Actually, I can tell you that evidence of income IS presented in court, evidence of earning ability IS presented in court, you DO get to present your records, Judges to NOT get to “make up” their own evidence.

Now Wiggins has a problem: is he attacking a broken system or is he attacking the idea that fathers should help support the children they father? Because he can’t have it both ways. If he is saying that fathers should not have to support the children they father, then his ENTIRE argument up to this point is totally irrelevant – because it is all (incorrect and untrue) criticisms about the system. The obvious response is to say “well then we should fix the system.” If however Wiggins is claiming that fathers should not have to pay to support their children, so far he has given no argument to support this. So even if Wiggins claims about the system were all true and well documented, it still wouldn’t change the fact that fathers should be responsible to support the children they father, and when they refuse that responsibility they should be compelled by the state to do so.


Men are driven into poverty, often unable to afford basic medical, dental and optical needs. Sometimes driven to living in the streets.


Yeah right.


Courts seem to not want to be "bothered" with parenting rights. Men, commonly are kept from seeing their children, even when court orders exist. The courts don't even try. A man, making only $70 a week has been jailed until he can pay $28,000 in back child support, and never likely to from his jail cell. The courts had refused to help him see is children for more than six years.


You don’t get “jailed” for debt. You get your wages garnished, and other penalties, but you don’t get thrown in jail for debt alone. Ever. If Wiggins had been forced to back up ONE SINGLE CLAIM WITH A SHRED OF EVIDENCE he would never have been able to write that statement.


Men who have gone through divorce are more than five times more likely to commit suicide. "Murder on the courthouse steps" has become a more and more common event. Recent events with a sniper along the East coast terrorized millions. All these events can be traced directly back to our Family Courts.


The more and more I read, the more and more this “article” becomes a ridiculous example of a person ranting and providing absolutely NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE to support a single claim. Not a bit.

And in is ludicrous that in his entire rant about the evils of Child support he never addresses point blank questions.

Mr. Wiggins, let’s assume that it is confirmed beyond any doubt that a man is the father of a child – perhaps he simply admits it. Are you saying that the father should bear no legal obligation to support the child he fathered? Are you saying that a father should be legally allowed to say “yes I am the father, but no I will not provide any support to the child I created. I don’t care about the burden on the mother, and I accept no responsibility for my actions?”

Mr. Wiggins, is your beef with the inadequacies of the system, or with the concept of fatherly financial responsibility itself? If it is the latter, how does anything in your entire article serve as a defense of that position? On what grounds do you believe that fathers of children bear no obligation of support? If it is the former, why do you not suggest any alternatives or solutions to help the system fairly and adequately require fathers who would rather avoid their responsibility to honor their responsibility instead?

I believe that the idea that fathers should be able to have sex, get a girl pregnant and then blow off any responsibility or financial burden for the consequent child is insane. And even if you disagree with that position, this is a pathetically terrible article to use as justification.

Sel
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #158
186. great post
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 02:30 PM
Response to Original message
177. I am locking this thread.
It has become mean-spirited and is getting totally out of hand.

<click>

:+
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #177
182. Hey, is there a rule against impersonating a moderator?
Shame on you! :spank:
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #182
184. Well, it's friday and I'm feeling a little sneaky.
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Room101 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
188. In San Mateo county Men have no chance in Family court
This is coming from a close family friend who has worked and been involved with the family court system for over 20 years, he is often called to testify as he is Physiologist and Family health practitioner. He says 95% of the time men have no chance in winning anything more than 20/80 as far as custody of the children. Also describes nightmare situations where he sat in disbelief when he knew the mother to be a drug addict and still was awarded full custody. This is coming from a flaming Feminist/environmentalist who said that in the San Mateo county family system the discrimination against men is institutionalized
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #188
189. You show proof -- but some on the board will dismiss you as...
part of some right wing, Iranian-backed fundamentalist who wants to set the woman's movement back --- just because you are pointing out that the system in family court is unfair. Shame on you.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #189
193. Wigguns wasn't saying the system is unfair...
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 03:57 PM by Selwynn
He was saying it was unfair that fathers be required by law to support the children they father at all, and doing it under the smokescreen of pointing out how unfair the system is.

I think we can all agree that the system needs to be improved. The real issue is that it is wrong to argue that fathers should not be obligated to financially support the children they father.
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #193
197. His point is, I believe, that fathers deserve more rights...
than just being forced to pay child support. Personally I like the system in many European nations where the standard is joint custody automatically unless there is a problem with one of the parents.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #197
207. I agree on more rights.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #188
192. Were all of those mothers drug addicts in that 95%?
Or was it just that one case?
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Room101 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #192
261. cat_girl25 - THe answer to that question is in my post
You did read my post clearly right? Look I’m a single father who has split custody of my son, so this is of personal interest. I’m a more capable responsible parent than my son’s mother but I would stand no chance of winning in court. I was served with court papers by my ex who is a scorned hell have no fiery type who used our son to hurt me. Taking the advice of our family friend I begged her to drop the court battle. If we went to court the custody would have been split 20/80, meaning I see my son every other weekend and alternating holidays.

I would have lost my sanity. I begged and out of guilt she relented.
Us fathers continue to get fu*ked. When I hear woman bitching about making 70 cents to men’s dollar, I angrily point to the standard issue 20/80 custody split awarded woman.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:34 PM
Response to Original message
204. This article is filled with nothing but anecdotel shit
The men's right's movement relies on anecdotal shit since statistics continue to prove them wrong.

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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
205. Boy, I picked a doozie for my first post
What is important is what's in the best interest of the child.

The data is clear. Children living in single father homes have less abusive situations to live in, less suicide, less drug use and less teen pregnancy than do children living in single mother homes. I am sorry if that angers some of you, but it is totally and undeniably true. It is more important to know and deal with the truth then to be politically correct. It is important because children are involved.

We should all encourage men to be invovled in their children's lives. And the courts should be encouraged to keep BOTH parents in their childrens lives.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #205
206. Got a link for that? A source?
"The data is clear."

I don't believe you. Prove it.
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #206
209. Yes
I was a sinlge father starting in 1985 and was the first father in my state to sue himself for paternity. I have been involved in father's rights since then in one form or another although I have been dormant since my son went off to college several years ago.

I notice that you have taken no posiiton on what I have said other than to say you don't believe me. What is your position? Are you saying that children brought up in single mother homes are better adjusted than single father home children? If so, do you have any facts to support that position?

From your immediate non-belief of my position it seems you have strong opinions on this issue. I would think that you would have facts to back up those strong opinions.

What source would you consider credible? I believe that if I give you a source you will discount it because the source may not comport with your political beliefs. You pick a good source for info like that and I will work it up.

But the long and short of it is this: You are very wrong. Single father's are doing a better job than single mother's as a group.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #209
212. So then you can't back up your assertions..which is what you basically
just admitted.
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #212
217. Here ya go
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #217
223. Misleading
61% of all child abuse is committed by biological mothers
25% of all child abuse is committed by natural fathers
Statistical Source: Current DHHS report on nationwide Child Abuse


This is because a majority of mothers have custody of children, not fathers. If a majority of single fathers had custody, those stats might be revesed, and we won't know until that happens, but right now there's no clear evidence that children are "better off" with natural fathers than mothers.


46.9% of non-custodial mothers totally default on support
26.9% of non-custodial fathers totally default on support


But, only 20% of non-custodial mothers pay support at all, so that stat is misleading as well.


20.0% of non-custodial mothers pay support at some level
61.0% of non-custodial fathers pay support at some level


Irrelevant or at least inconclusive to wether or not a child is better of with the father over the mother.


66.2% of single custodial mothers work less than full-time
10.2% of single custodial fathers work less than full-time


Has nothing to do directly with whether the child is better off with the father or the mother, however you could arguably say a child would be better off with a parent who was actually around and not working all the time.


7.0% of single custodial mothers work more than 44 hours weekly
24.5% of single custodial fathers work more than 44 hours weekly


This is a stat that actually favors mothers insofar as it indicates that are able to be there for children more.

Of all these stats you mentioned, not one - not a SINGLE one directly demonstrates that children are "better off" with their natural fathers than their natural mothers. Setting the side the fact that you would have to define what "better off" means, the fact remains that there are no relevant statistics to prove this. The best claim you can make is that both the role of the father and the role of the mother can play a critical and important role in a childs life, and wherever it is possible both parents should have responsibility and an active role as parent.

That's a claim that you can actually back up, therefore it is much better.

Now.. WECLOME TO DU!!!!!! *cheers*
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #209
230. No Sale
In your first post you stated "The data is clear" and proceeded to make a number of claims based on that supposed clear data. I asked you to provide the source or or a link to the data. And yes, I said I don't believe you, because the truth is I really don't believe you have anything to back that up. So far, you still don't.

You still claim "yes" you can provide a source or a link, but all you have given is your own personal history. That does not qualify as "clear data" to support all the claims and generalizations you made in your original post. Do we agree on that so far?

You made the claims, it is up to you to back it up, not for me to do your homework and research for you. And why are you now asking me what kind of source from you to cite your data is suitable? I am not asking you to go shopping for it? You said you could back it up - I am asking you for THE source of THE CLEAR DATA you used to make the claims YOU made in YOUR original post.

And let's not travel down the path of whether single parent fathers are better than single parent mothers because that one just doesn't work on me. I've had and still have many single parent father acquaintances over the years and I have the same admiration and respect for my male counterparts as I do the female. That is not the issue of discussion here. So let's just put that one to rest because that is not the point here.

So, you have a source for those original claims?
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #205
208. I'm calling bullshit on that one.
I'd welcome you to DU, but that was the lamest post I've ever seen.

"The Data is clear"

Let's see it then.
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #208
215. Have fun
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #215
221. Misleading..


61% of all child abuse is committed by biological mothers
25% of all child abuse is committed by natural fathers
Statistical Source: Current DHHS report on nationwide Child Abuse


This is because a majority of mothers have custody of children, not fathers. If a majority of single fathers had custody, those stats might be revesed, and we won't know until that happens, but right now there's no clear evidence that children are "better off" with natural fathers than mothers.


46.9% of non-custodial mothers totally default on support
26.9% of non-custodial fathers totally default on support


But, only 20% of non-custodial mothers pay support at all, so that stat is misleading as well.


20.0% of non-custodial mothers pay support at some level
61.0% of non-custodial fathers pay support at some level


Irrelevant or at least inconclusive to wether or not a child is better of with the father over the mother.


66.2% of single custodial mothers work less than full-time
10.2% of single custodial fathers work less than full-time


Has nothing to do directly with whether the child is better off with the father or the mother, however you could arguably say a child would be better off with a parent who was actually around and not working all the time.


7.0% of single custodial mothers work more than 44 hours weekly
24.5% of single custodial fathers work more than 44 hours weekly


This is a stat that actually favors mothers insofar as it indicates that are able to be there for children more.

Of all these stats you mentioned, not one - not a SINGLE one directly demonstrates that children are "better off" with their natural fathers than their natural mothers. Setting the side the fact that you would have to define what "better off" means, the fact remains that there are no relevant statistics to prove this. The best claim you can make is that both the role of the father and the role of the mother can play a critical and important role in a childs life, and wherever it is possible both parents should have responsibility and an active role as parent.

That's a claim that you can actually back up, therefore it is much better. :)

Now.. WECLOME TO DU!!!!!! *cheers* :toast:
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #221
227. No
Only 20% of non-custodial women are court ordered to pay to support their children?! It would seem you are making my argument.

Women abuse children. The facts I have given you reveal this: If a child is abused their is a 60% chance that his mother did it to him/her.

The "working" stats show that women rely on the govt or others to support them. The men do not. children are better off in an enviroment where they are taught to be self-sufficient. Or would you even want toargue that point?
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #227
242. Wrong again.

Women abuse children. The facts I have given you reveal this: If a child is abused their is a 60% chance that his mother did it to him/her.


That has nothing to do with woman being worse parents than men, nor does it support your outlandish claim that the "data clearly" shows that a child is better off with a single father than a single mother.

Why?

Because the ratio of kids living with mothers over fathers is almost 6:1. Of course numbers on abuse are going to be skewed towards mothers - more kids live with mothers. If more kids lived with fathers, its not clear that abuse would go down, its just as possible that the number would turn into 60% chance that the father did it to him her.

I'm sorry if your mother abused you, or you were not well off in your single mother home. But that doesn't change the fact that there is no clear and unquestionable evidence that a child is BETTER off with a father than a mother.

The closest you can get is to say that there's a lot of evidence to suggest that a child is better off in a home where both parents are active! But that's not what you said the evidence "CLEARLY shows." The evidence does not "clearly" show that. In fact, its extremely liekly that the evidence doesn't back that claim at all.

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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #208
216. My guess is this.
You will ignore the facts of my source and atatck the source itself.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #216
225. You have guessed.....poorly. :)
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #205
210. There are far fewer children in single father homes due to so many
fathers being ABSENT. Your post is based on anecdotal evidence.
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #210
211. No I am sorry. It is not.
I am not talking raw numbers. I am talking percentages.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #211
213. So what is the source of these percentages?
e o m
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #211
219. If you had a basis in fact, you would have provided it already
You can't support your conclusions, that's why you haven't. It isn't up to me to prove you wrong...you must prove yourself correct.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
214. This survey is at least as scientific as the post that started this thread
Here on DU as in life. The majority of single parent homes are as they are because MEN DITCH THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=317729
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #214
224. Really
Well DU is not representative of the real world. Most men in fact support their children, both financially and emotionally and love them very much.

The actions of SOME men is not the responsibility of ALL men any more than the actions of golddiggers and women who get pregnant decietfully are the responsibility of ALL women.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #224
235. DU is indeed representative of this phenomenon
As in REAL life, a huge percentage of fathers compared to mothers are missing. Often when the mother is missing, it is due to DEATH not divorce.

Where did I say the actions of SOME men are the responsibility of ALL men.

It is usually MEN who want the laws changed for ALL due to SOME injustice occurring.

I say the law should err on the side of producing the most substantial justice.

I believe it currently does and have refuted those facts of yours below.

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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #235
247. Soooo
You want to make it more difficult for fathers to have access to their children? I am not following you here.
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #235
249. BTW
Women initiate divorce more often then men. It would seem that women break up the family more.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #214
292. Very revealing! Out of about 50 single parents 3 were men
That about matches what I've personally witnessed over the years as well.
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
218. Attack sequence initiated
Divorce and Fatherhood Statistics


61% of all child abuse is committed by biological mothers
25% of all child abuse is committed by natural fathers
Statistical Source: Current DHHS report on nationwide Child Abuse


79.6% of custodial mothers receive a support award
29.9% of custodial fathers receive a support award

46.9% of non-custodial mothers totally default on support
26.9% of non-custodial fathers totally default on support

20.0% of non-custodial mothers pay support at some level
61.0% of non-custodial fathers pay support at some level

66.2% of single custodial mothers work less than full-time
10.2% of single custodial fathers work less than full-time

7.0% of single custodial mothers work more than 44 hours weekly
24.5% of single custodial fathers work more than 44 hours weekly

46.2% of single custodial mothers receive public assistance
20.8% of single custodial fathers receive public assistance
Statistical Source: Technical Analysis Paper No. 42 - U.S. Dept. of Health & Human Services - Office of Income Security Policy


90.2% of fathers with joint custody pay all the support due
79.1% of fathers with visitation privileges pay all the support due
44.5% of fathers with no visitation pay all the support due
37.9% of fathers are denied any visitation
66.0% of all support not paid by non-custodial fathers is due to inability to pay
Statistical Source: 1988 Census "Child Support and Alimony: 1989 Series P-60, No. 173 p. 6-7. and U.S. General Accounting Office Report" GAO/HRD-92-39FS January, 1992


50% of mothers see no value in the father's continued contact with his children.
--See "Surviving the Breakup" by Joan Berlin Kelly


40% of mothers reported that they had interfered with the father's visitation to punish their ex-spouse.
--See "Frequency of Visitation...." by Stanford Braver, American Journal of Orthopsychiatry

63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes
--U.S. D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census
85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes
--Center for Disease Control
80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes
--Criminal Justice and Behavior, Vol. 14, p. 403-26
71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes
--National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools
70% of juveniles in state operated institutions come from fatherless homes
--U.S. Dept. of Justice, Special Report Sept., 1988
85% of all youths sitting in prisons grew up in a fatherless home
--Fulton County Georgia jail populations & Texas Dept. of Corrections, 1992

Translated, this means that children from a fatherless home are:


5 times more likely to commit suicide

32 times more likely to run away

20 times more likely to have behavioral disorders

14 times more likely to commit rape

9 times more likely to drop out of school

10 times more likely to abuse chemical substances

9 times more likely to end up in a state operated institution

20 times more likely to end up in prison


There are: 11,268,000 total U.S. custodial mothers and 2,907,000 total U.S. custodial fathers
--Current Population Reports, U.S. Bureau of the Census, Series P-20, No. 458, 1991


In a study of 700 adolescents, researchers found that "compared to families with two natural parents living in the home, adolescents from single-parent families have been found to engage in greater and earlier sexual activity."
Source: Carol W. Metzler, et al. "The Social Context for Risky Sexual Behavior Among Adolescents", Journal of Behavioral Medicine 17 (1994).

"Fatherless children are at a dramatically greater risk of drug and alcohol abuse, mental illness, suicide, poor educational performance, teen pregnancy, and criminality."
Source: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, National Center for Health Statistics, Survey on Child Health, Washington, DC, 1993.

"Teenagers living in single-parent households are more likely to abuse alcohol and at an earlier age compared to children reared in two-parent households."
Source: Terry E. Duncan, Susan C. Duncan and Hyman Hops, "The Effects of Family Cohesiveness and Peer Encouragement on the Development of Adolescent Alcohol Use: A Cohort-Sequential Approach to the Analysis of Longitudinal Data", Journal of Studies on Alcohol 55 (1994).

"...the absence of the father in the home affects significantly the behavior of adolescents and results in the greater use of alcohol and marijuana."
Source: Deane Scott Berman "Risk Factors Leading to Adolescent Substance Abuse", Adolescence 30 (1995)

A study of 156 victims of child sexual abuse found that the majority of the children came from disrupted or single-parent homes; only 31 percent of the children lived with both biological parents. Although stepfamilies make up only about 10 percent of all families, 27 percent of the abused children lived with either a stepfather or the mother's boyfriend.
Source: Beverly Gomes-Schwartz, Jonathan Horowitz, and Albert P. Cardarelli, "Child Sexual Abuse Victims and Their Treatment", U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Juvenile Justce and Delinquency Prevention.

Researchers in Michigan determined that "49 percent of all child abuse cases are committed by single mothers."
Source: Joan Ditson and Sharon Shay, "A Study of Child Abuse in Lansing, Michigan", Child Abuse and Neglect, 8 (1984).

"A family structure index -- a composite index based on the annual rate of children involved in divorce and the percentage of families with children present that are female-headed -- is a strong predictor of suicide among young adult and adolescent white males."
Source: Patricia L. McCall and Kenneth C. Land, "Trends in White Male Adolescent, Young-Adult and Elderly Suicide: Are There Common Underlying Structural Factors?" Social Science Research 23, 1994.

" Fatherless children are at dramatically greater risk of suicide."
Source: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, National Center for Health Statistics, Survey on Child Health, Washington, DC, 1993.

In a study of 146 adolescent friends of 26 adolescent suicide victims, teens living in single-parent families are not only more likely to commit suicide but also more likely to suffer from psychological disorders, when compared to teens living in intact families.
Source: David A. Brent, et al. "Post-traumatic Stress Disorder in Peers of Adolescent Suicide Victims: Predisposing Factors and Phenomenology.", Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry 34, 1995.

"Boys who grow up in father-absent homes are more likely that those in father-present homes to have trouble establishing appropriate sex roles and gender identity."
Source: P.L. Adams, J.R. Milner, and N.A. Schrepf, "Fatherless Children", New York, Wiley Press, 1984.

"In 1988, a study of preschool children admitted to New Orleans hospitals as psychiatric patients over a 34-month period found that nearly 80 percent came from fatherless homes."
Source: Jack Block, et al. "Parental Functioning and the Home Environment in Families of Divorce", Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, 27 (1988)

"Children living with a never-married mother are more likely to have been treated for emotional problems."
Source: L. Remez, "Children Who Don't Live with Both Parents Face Behavioral Problems," Family Planning Perspectives (January/February 1992).

Children reared by a divorced or never-married mother are less cooperative and score lower on tests of intelligence than children reared in intact families. Statistical analysis of the behavior and intelligence of these children revealed "significant detrimental effects " of living in a female-headed household. Growing up in a female-headed household remained a statistical predictor of behavior problems even after adjusting for differences in family income.
Source: Greg L. Duncan, Jeanne Brooks-Gunn and Pamela Kato Klebanov, "Economic Deprivation and Early Childhood Development", Child Development 65 (1994).

"Compared to peers in two-parent homes, black children in single-parent households are more likely to engage in troublesome behavior, and perform poorly in school."
Source: Tom Luster and Hariette Pipes McAdoo, "Factors Related to the Achievement and Adjustment of Young African-American Children.", Child Development 65 (1994): 1080-1094

"Even controlling for variations across groups in parent education, race and other child and family factors, 18- to 22-year-olds from disrupted families were twice as likely to have poor relationships with their mothers and fathers, to show high levels of emotional distress or problem behavior, to have received psychological help."
Source: Nicholas Zill, Donna Morrison, and Mary Jo Coiro, "Long Term Effects of Parental Divorce on Parent-Child Relationships, Adjustment and Achievement in Young Adulthood", Journal of Family Psychology 7 (1993).

"Children with fathers at home tend to do better in school, are less prone to depression and are more successful in relationships. Children from one-parent families achieve less and get into trouble more than children from two parent families."
Source: One Parent Families and Their Children: The School's Most Significant Minority, conducted by The Consortium for the Study of School Needs of Children from One Parent Families, co sponsored by the National Association of Elementary School Principals and the Institute for Development of Educational Activities, a division of the Charles F. Kettering Foundation, Arlington, VA., 1980

"Children whose parents separate are significantly more likely to engage in early sexual activity, abuse drugs, and experience conduct and mood disorders. This effect is especially strong for children whose parents separated when they were five years old or younger."
Source: David M. Fergusson, John Horwood and Michael T. Lynsky, "Parental Separation, Adolescent Psychopathology, and Problem Behaviors", Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry 33 (1944)

"Compared to peers living with both biological parents, sons and daughters of divorced or separated parents exhibited significantly more conduct problems. Daughters of divorced or separated mothers evidenced significantly higher rates of internalizing problems, such as anxiety or depression."
Source: Denise B. Kandel, Emily Rosenbaum and Kevin Chen, "Impact of Maternal Drug Use and Life Experiences on Preadolescent Children Born to Teenage Mothers", Journal of Marriage and the Family56 (1994).

"Father hunger " often afflicts boys age one and two whose fathers are suddenly and permanently absent. Sleep disturbances, such as trouble falling asleep, nightmares, and night terrors frequently begin within one to three months after the father leaves home.
Source: Alfred A. Messer, "Boys Father Hunger: The Missing Father Syndrome", Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality, January 1989.

"Children of never-married mothers are more than twice as likely to have been treated for an emotional or behavioral problem."
Source: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, National Center for Health Statistics, National Health Interiew Survey, Hyattsille, MD, 1988

A 1988 Department of Health and Human Services study found that at every income level except the very highest (over $50,000 a year), children living with never-married mothers were more likely than their counterparts in two-parent families to have been expelled or suspended from school, to display emotional problems, and to engage in antisocial behavior.
Source: James Q. Wilson, "In Loco Parentis: Helping Children When Families Fail Them", The Brookings Review, Fall 1993.

In a longitudinal study of 1,197 fourth-grade students, researchers observed "greater levels of aggression in boys from mother-only households than from boys in mother-father households."
Source: N. Vaden-Kierman, N. Ialongo, J. Pearson, and S. Kellam, "Household Family Structure and Children's Aggressive Behavior: A Longitudinal Study of Urban Elementary School Children", Journal of Abnormal Child Psychology 23, no. 5 (1995).

"Children from mother-only families have less of an ability to delay gratification and poorer impulse control (that is, control over anger and sexual gratification.) These children also have a weaker sense of conscience or sense of right and wrong."
Source: E.M. Hetherington and B. Martin, "Family Interaction " in H.C. Quay and J.S. Werry (eds.), Psychopathological Disorders of Childhood. (New York: John Wiley & Sons, 1979)

"Eighty percent of adolescents in psychiatric hospitals come from broken homes."
Source: J.B. Elshtain, "Family Matters... ", Christian Century, Jully 1993.


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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #218
226. M I S L E A D I N G
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 07:49 PM by Selwynn

61% of all child abuse is committed by biological mothers
25% of all child abuse is committed by natural fathers
Statistical Source: Current DHHS report on nationwide Child Abuse


This is because a majority of mothers have custody of children, not fathers. If a majority of single fathers had custody, those stats might be revesed, and we won't know until that happens, but right now there's no clear evidence that children are "better off" with natural fathers than mothers.


46.9% of non-custodial mothers totally default on support
26.9% of non-custodial fathers totally default on support


But, only 20% of non-custodial mothers pay support at all, so that stat is misleading as well.


20.0% of non-custodial mothers pay support at some level
61.0% of non-custodial fathers pay support at some level


Irrelevant or at least inconclusive to wether or not a child is better of with the father over the mother.


66.2% of single custodial mothers work less than full-time
10.2% of single custodial fathers work less than full-time

50% of mothers see no value in the father's continued contact with his children.
--See "Surviving the Breakup" by Joan Berlin Kelly


40% of mothers reported that they had interfered with the father's visitation to punish their ex-spouse.
--See "Frequency of Visitation...." by Stanford Braver, American Journal of Orthopsychiatry


Does NOTHING to substantiate your claim that therefore children are better off with fathers than mothers.


63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes
--U.S. D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census
85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes
--Center for Disease Control


Ones again, if the majority of youth lived in single father homes instead of single mother homes, then we could just as easily have a stat that said "63% of youth suicides are from motherless homes. This stat might support the idea that homes where both the father and mother have a role are better, but it does NOTHING to support the claim that children are better off in single father homes over single mother homes.


80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes
--Criminal Justice and Behavior, Vol. 14, p. 403-26


That probably has something to do with the fact that 80% of single part kids live with their mothers and miss the other parent. If 80% o f kids lived with their fathers then it is just as reasonable to assume that 80% of rapists would be motivated by dispalced anger from motherless homes. This stat does nothing to support that claim that children are better in single father homes than in single mother homes.


71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes
--National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools
70% of juveniles in state operated institutions come from fatherless homes
--U.S. Dept. of Justice, Special Report Sept., 1988


SEE ABOVE.



85% of all youths sitting in prisons grew up in a fatherless home
--Fulton County Georgia jail populations & Texas Dept. of Corrections, 1992


The closest thing these stats do is lead us to think that maybe both the role of the father AND the role of the mother play a critical role in child development. You indicated you agree with that. However your claim was that a child is BETTER OFF with a single father than a single mother and there is NO statistic that clearly supports this. All the stats you are showing have to do with the fact that there are not an equal number of kids with single fathers and kids with single mothers for comparison! Most kids are in the custody of the single mother -- so OF COURSE these stats are going to be like this. If the majority of kids were with their fathers, I can just as easily argue that the stats would NOT go away, but instead they would all be reversed and the absence of the mother would be keenly felt. You can't prove otherwise, becasue there's no hard data on this.

Your date you've provided does not relate to your specific claim that a child is better with a single father than a single mother. At best it supports the idea that a child is best in a home where both father and mother are present.


Translated, this means that children from a fatherless home are:
5 times more likely to commit suicide
32 times more likely to run away
20 times more likely to have behavioral disorders
14 times more likely to commit rape
9 times more likely to drop out of school
10 times more likely to abuse chemical substances
9 times more likely to end up in a state operated institution
20 times more likely to end up in prison


WRONG.

What it means translated is nothing. Well, at least nothing to support your claim that children are better off with single fathers than single mothers.

I'm not going to go on and on with this, but in your stats you ACKNOWELDGE the fact that there are 11 million single mother home sand only 2 million single father homes! THESE STATS MERELY REFECT THAT GAP. If there were 11 million single father homes and 2 million single mother homes we would see that children living in MOTHERLESS HOMES are:

5 times more likely to commit suicide
32 times more likely to run away
20 times more likely to have behavioral disorders
14 times more likely to commit rape
9 times more likely to drop out of school
10 times more likely to abuse chemical substances
9 times more likely to end up in a state operated institution
20 times more likely to end up in prison


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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #226
229. And these facts?
A 1988 Department of Health and Human Services study found that at every income level except the very highest (over $50,000 a year), children living with never-married mothers were more likely than their counterparts in two-parent families to have been expelled or suspended from school, to display emotional problems, and to engage in antisocial behavior.
Source: James Q. Wilson, "In Loco Parentis: Helping Children When Families Fail Them", The Brookings Review, Fall 1993.

In a longitudinal study of 1,197 fourth-grade students, researchers observed "greater levels of aggression in boys from mother-only households than from boys in mother-father households."
Source: N. Vaden-Kierman, N. Ialongo, J. Pearson, and S. Kellam, "Household Family Structure and Children's Aggressive Behavior: A Longitudinal Study of Urban Elementary School Children", Journal of Abnormal Child Psychology 23, no. 5 (1995).

"Children from mother-only families have less of an ability to delay gratification and poorer impulse control (that is, control over anger and sexual gratification.) These children also have a weaker sense of conscience or sense of right and wrong."
Source: E.M. Hetherington and B. Martin, "Family Interaction " in H.C. Quay and J.S. Werry (eds.), Psychopathological Disorders of Childhood. (New York: John Wiley & Sons, 1979)

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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #229
239. Udated MISLEADING post -- see above.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #226
236. It's not cool to intentionally tell untruths.
Studies of (predominantly upper-middle class) single fathers have shown them to achieve high satisfaction from parenting (Ambert 1982) and good adjustment (Chang & Deinard 1982, Greif & DeMaris 1990). They are likely to report to have custody because of their love for the child and confidence in parenting ability (Chang & Deinard), though often because the mother was poor or unavailable, and usually through mutual consent (Clark-Stewart & Hayward 1996).

Due to the small number of studies done comparing children in single father homes to children in single mother homes there is not= a clear consensus on what is best for children. Studies have found in favor of each of the theories presented while some have found no effect along these lines at all.


References
  • Ambert, A. (1982). Differences in children's behavior toward custodial mothers and custodial fathers. Journal of Marriage and the Family, 41(1), 73-86.

  • Bianchi, S. M. (1995). The changing demographic and socioeconomic characteristics of single parent families. Marriage & Family Review, 20(1-2), 71-96.

  • Chang, P., & Deinard, A. S. (1982). Single-father caretakers: Demographic characteristics and adjustment processes. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 52(2), 236-243.

  • Clark-Stewart, K. A. & Hayward, C. (1996). Advantages of father custody and contact for the psychological well-being of school-age children. Journal of Applied Developmental Psychology, 17, 239-270.

  • Greif, G. L. & DeMaris, A. (1990). Single fathers with custody. Families in Society: The Journal of Contemporary Human Services, 71(5), 259-266.

  • Guttmann, J., & Lazar, A. (1998). Mother's or father's custody: Does it matter for social adjustment? Educational Psychology, 18(2), 225-234.

  • Lowenstein, J. S., (1978). A comparison of self-esteem between boys living with single parent mothers and boys living with single parent fathers. Dissertation Abstracts International, 39(2-A), 1137.

  • Santrock, J. W., & Warshak, R. A. (1979). Father custody and social development in boys and girls. Journal of Social Issues, 35(4), 112-125.

  • Schnayer, R. & Orr, R. R. (1988-1989). A comparison of children living in single-mother and single-father families. Journal of Divorce, 12(2-3), 171-184.

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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #236
240. Judging from
The extremely hostile response my posts have gotten I argue that whatever positions are held are held based on pure emotion and personal life experiences and not on any "facts."
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #240
248. And judging from the fact that you had absolutely nothing
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 08:03 PM by Booberdawg
to back up your original assertion to "clear data" and all the claims to fall from that, I'd have to say that it is you that is holding a position "based on pure emotion and personal life experiences and not on any "facts.""

Now how did I know this was going to happen.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #218
228. Immediate blowback ...
You said:

"Children living in single father homes have less abusive situations to live in, less suicide, less drug use and less teen pregnancy than do children living in single mother homes."

The information you provided isn't about single father homes at all. It's about single mother homes. In fact, some of the sources refer to single "parent" homes, and don't specify whether it is the mother or the father.

Just where are the "percentages" that come from studying single father homes?
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #228
234. Where there's smoke there's fire
But they do show that children are much better off and at less risk when their fathers are involved.

There are very few studies of children with absent mothers presumably because those childen do not have as many problems.

Single mothers have been the tragedy of America since the 60s.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #234
238. There's no smoke...
There's a raging fire where the uninvolvment of fathers is concerned. On the other hand, there's neither smoke nor fire with regard to your clumsy lie that a child is better off in the sole custody of the father.
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #238
244. Here's another
Clark-Stewart and Hayward (1996) found that both boys and girls have higher self-esteem if they live with their fathers after a divorce, with a greater effect in boys. Controlling for parent's "adequate" income or psychological state did not eliminate this difference. On the other hand, Lowenstein (1978) found no self-esteem difference between boys living with their mothers and boys living with their fathers. Also, no significant correlation was present between the child's self-esteem and the parent's. Self-esteem was, however, related to the frequency of visits with the absent parent. The previous study emphasizes that children's psychological well being is related to the higher quality of visits with the absent parent, such as holiday time and a greater diversity of activities, not the frequency or length.

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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #244
304. There are two things there that you've overlooked:
Edited on Sat Nov-01-03 12:54 AM by Isome
  1. "Self-esteem was, however, related to the frequency of visits with the absent parent."
    It's entirely possible that non-custodial mothers are more likely to make regular and frequent visits to their child(ren), thus, the higher self-esteem reported by the child(ren). They report no evidence to suggest otherwise.

  2. "The previous study emphasizes that children's psychological well being is related to the higher quality of visits with the absent parent, such as holiday time and a greater diversity of activities..."
    Again, the possiblity exists that non-custodial mothers are more likely to have "quality" and "diversity of activities" when they visit their child(ren). They report no evidence to suggest otherwise.


    That same study you cited says this:

    Regardless of which parent children lived with, they had a more positive relationship with their mother than with their father, which may cloud the issue.


    It would be dishonest to use that, out of context, as proof that women are better single parents than men. It's unfortunate you attempted to do just that with the text in your post.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #234
241. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #228
250. That's the whole point you crazy person!!
This is the WHOLE POINT.

Try to stay with me... you are citing these statistics, and saying that they "prove" that children are better off in single parent homes than single mother homes....

Now, if there was a study that looked at 1,000 kids in single father homes and 1,000 kids in single mother homes and made some conclusions based on that, that would be an intersting study.

However, the statistics you are quoting at looking at cases of single parent homes on the WHOLE. Listen carefully here: on the whole more kids live with mothers than fathers -- by a ratio of 6(app. 12 million) to 1(app. 2 million). There are 6:1 more chances for a kid to miss the influence of his FATHER than there are for a kid ot miss the influence of his MOTHER. That's why the stats are misleading for supporting your claim -- because they were never designed to support your claim. OBVIOUSLY, stats like "children are more likely to suffer bad things because their fathers aren't around" is going to be a real stat -- but all that stat tells us is that the absence of the father is a negative factor on kids. IT DOES NOT IN ANY WAY get us to the conclusion that it is BETTER for a kid to be with a father than a mother.

Unless you can show me a study in which a large equal number of single father homes and single mother homes were sampled, which indicates taht kids in single father homes seem to do "better" - then so far you have quoted a bunch of statistics that don't at all support your agrument in the slightest.

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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #250
253. See #252 n/t
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #253
256. See #226 n/t
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #228
251. LOL posted on the wrong response.... I'm leaving it up anyway.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #218
231. Myths and Facts
FATHERHOOD AND FAMILY LAW:
THE MYTHS AND THE FACTS

In blue: what the pundits, spin-meisters, and study summarizers SAY the studies have found (frequently interposed with could-bes, should-bes, what-ifs, comments, faulty conclusions, and suppositions without cites), and, in black: what the research actually says!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Myth -- A father's involvement is crucial for the well-being of a child.

Fact: "While it would be a seemingly obvious proposition to most of us, that fathers' consistent and substantial involvement in child care would benefit the child, this appears to have not been well established. The relationship between paternal involvement and children's well-being seems to be mediated by a number of other conditions that involve the father, the mother, and the child. In other words, increased paternal involvement does not automatically result in improved child outcomes. Nor is it clear whether the father's involvement provides unique nurturance that can not be as readily provided by substitute caregivers."

THE MEANING OF FATHERHOOD Koray
http://www.thelizlibrary.org/liz/017.htm


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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #231
237. I picked the most bizarre one
Who wrote this crap-Pat Ireland?

"Paternal involvement is likely to have predominantly positive consequences only when it is the arrangement of choice for the particular family."

"Arrangement of choice"?! LOL!

So if the mother doesn't want the father around it is bad for the child? Why would the mother even have a say in it. The relationship between the child and the father is none of her business and she has no right to have any say in it.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #237
243. WHO IS ATTACKING THE SOURCE RATHER THAN THE ARGUMENT NOW?
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #243
246. Your argument is
something about "arrangement of choice" what in the hell does that mean, if anything in the real world?

I attacked that argument and the source.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #218
255. Interesting choice of words
"Attack sequence initiated" :eyes:
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #255
260. It was more like...
"Barrage of data that totally doesn't support my original point in any way initiated." But I took to time to critique it in post #226
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
222. The reason I find this interesting is because...
100+ years ago, custody was routinely given to men in divorce cases, under the reasoning that a divorced man could remarry more easily and thus supply his children with another caregiver while he earned the household income.

What is your solution?
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:07 PM
Response to Original message
252. What has been pointed out in this thread
Is that instead of heaping all the blame on the so-called "absent" father, single mothers have a lot to answer for and that children raised in single mother homes deserve better environments to grow up in.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #252
254. Actually, it hasn't been pointed out at all, which is why you keep...
starting new threads trying to avoid the complete criticsm of your lack of credible evidence and absence of legitimate points.
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #254
259. Really?
So you would point to single mothers as a general example of a sucessful lifestyle and way to raise children?

Is that your opinion?
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #259
264. My opinion is:
That your claim:

"A child is better off in a single father home than single mother home."

Is unsupported by evidence. It may be true, it may be false. There is no evidence to support it.

You are attempting to chance the subject by saying "oh, well if you don't agree with my completely unsupportable claim then are you saying single mothers represent a successful lifestyle?"

The answer is - that's irrelevant to the issue at hand, which is that you said the data "clearly supports" the claim that "A child is better off in a single father home than single mother home" when in fact there is no data that clearly supports that at all.

What I think is that it is impossible to mass stereotype groups of people. I would point to many, many, many single mothers as amazing examples of successful lifestyles and ways to raise children. I would point to many, many, many single fathers as amazing examples as well. But I would also point to many many many failures by both some single mothers and some single fathers to be amazing exmaples of anything.

But the way -- your entire argument is treading dangerously close to implying that a gay or lesbian couple do not provide as positive or stable a home inevironment for children, and that just isn't so. So it is not always true that a father is needed, or a mother is needed, or that one, two, or five partenting units are needing. Different homes need different things.....

But you know what, that entire side point shouldn't distract us from the real point- the fact that you CLAIMED the data "clearly supports" the claim that "A child is better off in a single father home than single mother home" when in fact there is no data that clearly supports that at all.
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nothingshocksmeanymore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #252
258. No what has been pointed out in this thread is that men know no bounds
when it comes to ditching responsibility and blaming others for their failures and abandonment of moral obligations.
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #258
262. Which men would that be?
Your father and the father of your children?

"The single biggest social problem in our society may be the growing absence of fathers from their children's homes because it contributes to so many other social problems."

President Bill Clinton


http://www.parenthelpcenter.org/newsletter/newsletter1202/newsletter1202.html
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #258
265. I am truly sorry that men have let you down
No one deserves to be let down. There are good men out there. In fact most of us are good. Just like most women are good. Only takes one turd to screw up the punch bowl.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #265
293. Oh for pity sakes!
That was pathetic! :eyes: Not to mention blatantly sexist nonsense.

"I am truly sorry that men have let you down"

You can't support your claim by staying on the message or with evidence so you project your failure on the woman you happen to be engaging with and assert it MUST be because "men have let her down". :eyes: Oh, the caring paternal lecture that follows is such a sweet touch too. :puke:

What a guy. Oh, my dying rear end.

Oh and interesting reference to a turd in the punch bowl ...
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
263. Let us consult the master on this
"The single biggest social problem in our society may be the growing absence of fathers from their children's homes because it contributes to so many other social problems."

President Bill Clinton


http://www.parenthelpcenter.org/newsletter/newsletter1202/newsletter1202.html
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #263
266. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #266
267. The thread
Is about children and fathers generally and financial support specificaly. My arguments go to the overall general subject matter.

Many of the other posts divert from the financial specifics. Where is your admonition/veiled threats to them?
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SmileyBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #266
268. Why don't you back off him, OK???
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 08:33 PM by northwest
Just because he's not offering an opinion that flies with all the typical liberal opinions, and that he's trying to make different points, doesn't mean that you should be harping on him over that. Do you know how one goes about cutting the number of potential true new DUers?? Just keep doing what you're doing to new members who want a different say that doesn't necessarily toe the conservative line, either. I'm not a 100 percent liberal, more like 65 to 70 percent. And I made it known when I started out here. But I'm still here.

Get off his back. Jeez.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #268
269. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #269
273. There's nothing extreme about demanding that your claims be supported
...with credible evidence.
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #273
276. Jesus!!!!!
Over many years I come across info that I believe is credible and because I immediately didn't stop, copy and catalogue it and can't quite reach it right this moment I am accused of being a liar and worse. I know what I have seen and I don't give TWO SHITS whether you think it is credible info or not. Don't believe it, please. Continue with your male and father bashing. Men are bad, men are the cause of societies problems. I don't give a f*ck. Just do what ever it is you do away from me and mine, men and women alike.

Do no think for one momment that this is about that. This is about expressing a contrary-to-the-popular DU view of fathers and men in general.

Guess what DU? YOU NEED MEN!! YOU WILL NOT WIN WITHOUT THE MALE VOTE AND WITHOUT THE VOTE OF FATHERS!!! LOTS AND LOTS OF THEM!!!!!!!!

Guess what else? We have a problem in the Democratic paty with the male vote! We lose more of it EACH YEAR!!



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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #276
278. So you acknowledge that data is not "clear" then --
In other words, no you don't have clear and concrete evidence to support the claim that a child is better off in a single father home than in a single mother home?

Good, becuase that claim is not about standing up for fathers - its about bashing mothers.

We can agree that fathers can and should play a beautiful and important role in the lives of their children. But guess what, in the case of single mother situations, the father frequently chooses not to do that. So perhaps the first step in recongizeing that "we need men" is to get MEN to recognize that fact and participate in the family.

The problem is, your claim was not that "fathers are important" or even "fathers are equally important." Your claim was that fathers are better and though I am a man, on behalf of mothers everywhere , that's where I draw the line.

But I do appreicate you admiting that your "clear data" that children are better off with single fathers rather than single mothers is anecdotal at best.
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #278
306. No never said that
I said I have seen the evidence in studies and in anecdotal evidence but I did not catalogue it at the time I saw it. I have been "paying attention" to this for almost two decades and I know of what I speak.

I am not interested in "bashing" anyone. I am interested in the truth.

What you seem to be saying is that if I put forward a politically incorrect theory or fact, P.C. according to your sensibiliites and attitudes, then I must be trying to "bash" someone or something. I think doing that is despicable and is nothing less than an effort to silence opposing points of view that MAY be currently controversial.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #306
310. No, there is a difference
This is about supporting your claims with credible, clear and concrete evidence. This has nothing to do with being politically correct or theories. It's about facts.

You are making claims that go far beyond the scope of your personal experience for which you have no expertise or credentials that qualify you to make. You have stated elsewhere that your personal experience and observations over the years qualifies you to give expert testimony but this is just not so. It only qualifies you to have an opinion based on your limited personal experience.

Also just saying that you have seen evidence or studies is not the same as providing credible, clear and concrete evidence. If you cannot put it up here for all to see, then it is correct to say you cannot support your claims.

So as it stands, you still don't have clear and concrete evidence to support your claim that a child is better off in a single father home than in a single mother home.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #268
272. He made a claim, I asked for evidence, his evidence doesn't support ...
...the claim. He continues to ignore that and repost - I'll continue to point out that the evidence doesn't support the claim. Thanks.
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #272
280. See post #276
You're right. I can't put my hands on it right this moment, so I will declare you right for the moment.

I know what I have read and listened to for many years.

Let me ask you this: Do you hate what I stated? I think that is what is really behind your supposed indignation.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #280
283. An honest answer:
Hate is the wrong word.

I do not believe it is right to claim that children are better off with fathers as opposed to mothers. I don't see that as defending men so much as I see it denigrating women. At the same time, and I want you to really hear me here - neither am I arguing that children are better of with single mothers as opposest to single fathers.

My problem is not with your desire that men be valued and the role of fathers be respected - I am a male. My problem is when you tried to claim that fathers are better than others at taking care of kids. I don't believe any evidence will ever support that, and I think that trying to decide "who is better" is a terrible mistake.

The truth is, children need stable loving homes in which both their father and mother play a loving nuturing role if possible. Even in stances of gay familes, I still believe that a child benefits greatly if it is possible that the father can participate in the childs life (I say if because of obvious cases of adoption or cirumstances where that is not possible.)

My ONLY problem was with the claim that children are better off with fathers than mothers. I think that is simply not true. Both mothers and fathers play an extremely significant role in children's lives. Neither should be diminshed in any way.
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Isome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #283
303. I have to interrupt you here Selwynn.
Edited on Sat Nov-01-03 12:30 AM by Isome
You said:

"The truth is, children need stable loving homes in which both their father and mother play a loving nuturing role if possible."

You shouldn't say things like that; this really isn't the thread for truth. You should rethink those kinds of mature conclusions and come up with something nonsensical, or make a fantastic claim and not back it up with a slew of references.

Thanks! ;-)
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #263
321. Clinton was right on on that one!
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Clark Can WIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
270. What an enormous stinking pile of pig shit
I do recognize that a tiny, tiny minority of worthy and genuinely interested and responsible men in this country end up getting shafted by an overburdened system.

I think that about 90% of the men who end up in these "fathers rights" groups are selfish cheap bastards who think if they're not boinking the mother they shouldn't have to foot the bill for their kids. I say this from personal experience.

I have seen and some of the slimiest behavior known to humanity from biological fathers skipping out on their emotional, moral and financial obligations to their children.

Fathers who make 70,000+ a year and plead hardship in court while hiding assets in the new wifes name all while their kids go without insurance and live in clothes from Goodwill.

The examples from the hundreds of women I have met could fill a f*cking depressing book, including my own asshole ex-husband who has lived 17 blocks away from my daughter and has bothered himself to see her an average of only 2-4 times PER YEAR! This has been HIS choice, I have never prevented him from seeing her. His 3rd wife decided he shouldn't see her so much and like a sniveling little p*ssy whipped piece of *hit, he didn't. She also decided he shouldn't pay child support anymore so he didn't do that either. It took me four f*cking years of running into brick walls in the system before I finally got a day in court. He was allowed to pay $60 PER YEAR....... because he said he was unemployed, he was working under the table the whole time.

Here's the kicker........ while he was thousands of dollars in debt for non-support of MY child (which should have been a felony charge BTW) HE WAS ALLOWED BY THE STATE TO ADOPT 3 CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!!

EVEN THOUGH HE FAILED TO PROVIDE FOR THE CHILD HE ALREADY HAD!!!!!

Kenneth Wiggens can go fuck himself. Twice.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #270
277. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #277
279. Do you have evidence to support this new claim?
The claim is: "Fathers care deeply for their children as a rule."

Let's narrow this down to the category of unmarried fathers - do you have satistical evidence for this? Or is this just your all-caps opinion?
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #279
284. The post
Was about the fathers rights movement. I was in it and saw it first hand. So from me you are getting expert testimony gathered in many different locations over extended periods of time. Expert testimony is just that...expert. It is the source.

So your quandry is this, either I am lying about the fathers rights movement or I am telling the truth about it. The fact is I HAVE cited the source of the statement-Me. I am the source.

Do I care if you agree with me?-Not in a million universes dear. But, I have given you the source.
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Selwynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #284
285. So, no then --
You have first hand examples that, shock of shock, there is at least a subset of single fathers that care about their kids. Great! I believe that too. However you went on to say that therefore based on your experiences with one small subest of men, therefore it is the general RULE that single fathers care about their kids...

This might be true, but I'm skeptical - I'd like to see some credible evidence. And you haven't given me a source for that yet.
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #285
290. No you have it wrong
The post I responded to referenced fathers rights group members. I offered an opinion, an expert opinion, on the members of those orgs.

As I said: Father's in father's rights organizations care deeply for their children. That is a fact born out by my experience and expertly testified to by me here.

I am the source. Your choice is either to believe me or not. What you cannot do is dispute my testimony as you, I presume, are NOT a former member of father's rights organizations and have no experience on which to form an opinion about them one way or the other. Correct?

You either reject my expert testimony or accept it. Either way I don't give a shit. What you do in this case means and changes exactly nothing.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #290
296. Your membership to a fathers rights group
while commendable, does not make you and "expert". You can offer an opinion based on your personal experience, but you lack qualifications and credentials to provide an "expert opinion"

Your "personal opinion" may be accepted, but it does not qualify as evidence, or for you to extrapolate that experience and make the generalized claims on a larger population based on your limited personal experience.

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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #296
305. Not true
My experience with father's rights and the movement were not "limited". Anyway, how would you even know enough to offer any kind of opinion on the subject?

Would you consider a baseball player on one of the major league teams an expert on the ins and outs and the people currently in Major League Baseball? I would. My situation is very similar.

I am sorry to say this but you are very arrogant. Do you have ANY experience from within the father's rights movement? If you don't how can you offer ANY opinion on the subject?

I have never been within what is called the "women's movement". Would you trust MY opinion of the goings on there? I wouldn't.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #305
311. Okay, to you I seem arrogant
I don't have a problem with that.

*sigh* For pity sakes. Your personal experience with the father's rights and the movement is "limited" in the sense that it is within the scope of your personal experience and observations. That is not to be construed in any way to cast a negative reflection on your character or integrity, or your dedication to the cause. So stop saying that.

Your personal experience, however, does not qualify you to give "expert testimony". Personal experience does not equate to the qualifications, education, credentials, etc., required to qualify one as an "expert".

One may have personal experience with diabetes for their entire life but that doesn't qualify a lay person with the education, qualifications, or credentials as a medical "expert" in diabetes.

You can have all the opinions you want, the fact remains that you still have no credible, clear and concrete evidence to support the claim that a child is better off in a single father home than in a single mother home.
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #311
315. I do
Single father homes have higher average incomes.

That fact alone makes it better. Unless there is something else about single father homes that you know of that makes them worse than single mother homes.
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #270
307. When women are court orderd to pay support..
They default on their payments at higher rates than men. That is a fact.
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #307
308. Got a link? A source? Data?
Until then it's just more bullshit. And so far your credibility a'int so hot.
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 03:29 AM
Response to Reply #308
318. I am surprised.
I would think that a well informed, political person like yourself would know this. This is from U.S. Census data.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Not only do women have better chances of being awarded child support ....In spring 1992, about one-half (6.2 million) of the 11.5 million custodial parents were awarded child support; award rates were higher for mothers than for fathers(56 percent compared with 41 per-cent).

******RIGHT HERE****

.... they are more likely to actually receive payments. Fewer than half of the custodial parents (5.3 million, or 46 percent)were supposed to receive child support payments in 1991.

****AND HERE***

Of the 4.9 million women due payments, 76 percent received at least a portion of the amount they were owed.

****ANNNNNND HERE****

The corresponding rate for the 400,000 men owed money was 63percent.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://216.239.53.104/search?q=cache:NWbNvvLXIaUJ:www.census.gov/apsd/www/statbrief/sb95_16.pdf+women+%2B+child+support&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #307
317. The only deadbeat I know of...
Is a woman who refuses to get a job so she can avoid paying any support whatsoever for her children she has lost custody of.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
281. Over 200 Years of American "Justice" Says the Opposite.
I'm really sorry you feel that way, Pontus. I do disagree with you completely though.
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #281
316. No, you are wrong!
The justice system is not always right. Stop worshiping it blindly.
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maveric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
288. My Ex ran off and left me with 3 kids, a mortgage and other bills...
She left the country for an internet lover taht turned out to be an abusive drunk. Well thats another story, but when she came back 2 years later I asked for child support. Her semi-wealthy mother got her a lawyer(I couldnt afford one), and the judge stated that she would not be liable for child support payments due to her being broke and not having job skills. She made just enough money to pay her rent, allegedly. The exception was that I would have to sell our house(CA community property law), pay her 1/2 of the equity and THEN she would have to pay me support. No back support though. By that time my mortgage was in arrears and the housing market in San Diego went down the tubes. I had to sell the house or foreclose. After the sale there ws only $3500.00 in equity left over. She got her half and lawyered up again(with her mother paying for it). The lawyer claimed that she was destitute again(living with her wealthy mom) and needed all of her money to find an apartment and eat, and "at a later date" the case would be reviewed. Three years later the judge still stated that she didnt make enough to survive and was exempt from paying child support. In the mean time joint custidy was awarded but my kids lived with me. This whole ordeal ws tough on my kids and after I got back on my feet again I abandoned my quest.I've had my kids alone for 6 years now without a dime from the ex.

Now if I did what she did, abandoning the family and running off to another country for a lover without paying a dime in child support, I'D HAVE ENDED UP IN JAIL, as others I know that did similar acts.
Why are the courts going after men with a fury and not women in cases of abandonment?

Are the courts sexist? I know that they are!
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Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #288
294. Now THAT was a deadbeat mom
I wholeheartedly agree.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
295. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Booberdawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #295
297. ROFLOL! Now you know that is going to get deleted don't you?
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 10:49 PM by Booberdawg
:D
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
300. RE: Children from fatherless homes...
"Children from fatherless homes comprise one of the largest and fastest growing segments of all our our other social ills."

Children in violent homes isn't so great, either.


"Understanding domestic violence is key to making safe changes, because how we think about violence shapes our response to it. Overwhelmingly, it is a social problem of men's violence against women and sometimes children. It is based in deep-seated beliefs in male superiority. When men and women achieve equality, domestic violence will reduce by 90%. That is not to say that women or children are not violent, but the impact of their offending is 90% less than what men are currently committing. Men can change - we just need to want to.

Not all men believe in male superiority. Men have a strong role in modelling non- violent behaviour. We're not the boss any more! We can talk with, challenge, support, and educate our brothers, fathers, and sons, so that the new generation of men are trustworthy family members. Our agency encourages men to value equality with women and non-violent life-styles."

http://www.dvc.org.nz/mensexp.htm
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #300
314. Women are abusers in most cases.
You could say that they are with the children more and therefore are the abusers in most cases (except sexual where it's often her boyfriend or husband that is not the biological father of the child) but I did sit in on a court hearing in my area where the boyfriend beat the 2 year old girl on many occasions -- finally one time he ruptured the little girl's liver and she died. The case I sat in on (after the guy was given life) was where the woman tried to get off (she went with him to bury the little girl but someone noticed the girl was gone and the body was eventually found) saying SHE was the victim of abuse.

The judge and jury was too smart to buy that and her ass in in jail for the rest of her life (and I sincerely hope her cell mate is a 300 pound abusive bull who isn't very gentle with her)!

Violence isn't only a male thing.
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #314
319. So true n/t
e mail me.
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maha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
302. Poor Baby.
I see the He-Man Women Hater's Club has some members at DU.
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Pontus Donating Member (284 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #302
313. Rape victim (male -- 12 years old) orders to pay child support.
http://www.menweb.org/throop/rawdeal/court.html

Just another example of our crazy court system.
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Joinup Donating Member (131 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #302
320. Why do you say that?
He didn't bash women he was bashing the courts if anything.
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