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Booger Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:21 AM
Original message
Give me some help re:Single Payer
Help me out here.
Being that I'm busy trying to keep my family fed and the bills paid, I'm not fully up on the issue. In fact, I'm waiting for the nominee to tell me what the platform really is.

But. I was talking about the concept to a guy at work this morning. I was saying that it seems that shifting the profit motive out and otherwise keeping everything the same sounds like a damn good idea. Still insured. Not keeping a job out of fear of losing benefits. Etc.

He told me he saw something on TV last night about gov't waste. He told me about the segment where the gov't spent 600,000 on a blimp to fly over football games. It had 1-800-MEDICARE on it. That's it. A phone number. He was telling me he'd rather deal the bad parts of his HMO than putting it in the hands of the gov't, that does things like spending 33 million advertising the new $20 bill. Which has already been counterfieted anyway.

So how do you understand it to work? How do you control things like that? And, how do you get that idea to the public?
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Wellong Donating Member (219 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. I know less than most on this matter
but look at the quality of care that many of our troops are getting. Thats government health care. Imagine expanding it to 300,000,000 people vs. the several million in the military. Not something I am interested in.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Haven't they turned a lot of the military care over to private companies?
They turned over their maintenance etc., and many of the soldiers have had to cut back on food and water at times.

What makes you think private companies, with no oversight, would do a better job with healthcare?

Our benefits under a private plan have been cut cut cut, and our payments have gone up up up.

How is that better than having some regulation over it?
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Goldmund Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Come again?
Why isn't that a problem of funding as opposed to a conceptual problem?

What you said is equivalent to "my friend went to a doctor and he messed him up. That's medical care for you! Imagine if everybody went to doctors when they're sick. Not something I'm interested in."

If they put all the extra money they're spending on defense so they can plunder the world into healthcare, you'd be getting better healthcare than you do now.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. When a for-profit system
..is allowed to exist along with the government program, the rich men in Congress feel free to underfund the government program. This is what has happened to the VA.

The VA was never fancy, but it did allow for veterans to receive good to very good care. Enter Reagan. For the past 20 years, the system has been allowed to crumble, both physically and metaphorically.

Eliminating the multi tiered system completely would force the rich men in Congress to fund it adequately, since it would be the system they and their families would face should they become ill or injured.

This is the short answer. The issue is, of course, more complex. However, I work in healthcare, and have worked within the VA system, in community hospitals, and in one for-profit hospital. We have health care rationing based on socioeconomic class, and the result is not pretty.
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liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
2. It's too complicated to go into
in one post, but here's a link that will give you a little more information. I'm in Northeast Ohio, and I belong to both UHCAN (Universal Health Care Action Network), and will be starting a new chapter of SPAN (Single Payer Action Network) in my county shortly. Here's the link to SPAN:

www.SPANOhio.org. It also gives links to other groups that can give more information on this issue.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Excellent link - I doubt Wellong knows the data on military health
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 11:06 AM by papau
Back in the 80's I did a study on officer military deaths and found that there had been a spike in the 0ver 40 crowd. A little research showed the data had begun to move toward more deaths a couple of years after the military budget increases for toys and cuts for people had included the termination of the required annual physical for officers over 40.

Seems preventive care works - but is too good an idea for a military (with a high percentage of minorities ? - nah - not racial - just cheap).

Simply a case for you get what you want to spend - the military plan would be better under a universal health single payer system - and just as a national single payer in other countries provides a healthier population than the US population at 10% of GNP versus our current for profit system covering a small portion of the population costing over 14% of GNP, the universal health single payer option for the military would save money.
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Booger Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
6. I need some ammo
Everyone is in the Friday state of mind at work, and it would be good to have something to deal with the conception of how much money would be wasted in oversight.
It's actually something that concerns me anyway. Gov't employees don't have the best reputations anyway. I took my dad to the VA for an operation a couple of weeks ago. Granted, if he was paying, it would have been a 3-4 hour outpatient visit. We were there for 9 hours. And in my day of wandering the halls, I witnessed employees moving at the slowest speed possible. I suppose the concerns of the opposition are somewhat valid, but not enough to continue with the faltering system that we have now.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. So, we should cut VA funding even more?
It was pointed out in the string that the VA has been losing support since the Reagan administration.

Poor Ronnie--he's getting the best in care for his dementia. Mostly nursing at this point, but that's expensive. How many guys of his generation--who didn't spend the War in Hollywood--are suffering from the cutbacks?
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Booger Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. that's not the point
and if you read my other posts in the thread you will see what I mean.
These arguements DO NOT work.
People perceive anything related to gov't work to be slow and cumbersome.
It doesn't matter that Raygun cut funding. People don't care. Hell, even my dad doesn't mind the 9 hour visit to the VA, because it's free.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. The VA has been slowly being starved for decades
Presidents appoint disabled vets as administrators, but how does severe injury convey administrative abilities and leadership? Answer: it doesn't. Docs tend to be part-timers and/or poorly compensated, so they're not the best. Staff budgets are low, equipment is apparently not the most modern...it's a contrived mess.

We simply don't have the right reward system in place in this country.
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denverbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
8. It's stupid for Medicare to advertise, I agree.
It's stupid for the Post Office as well. However, I expect no less from the Republicans, who are simply paying off their campaign donors who happen to be in the advertising industry.

That being said, how much money does Met Life spend on it's blimp? How much do drug companies spend? How much do HMO's spend? How much does the top executive at Met Life make per year? How much of your insurance premium is wasted on commissions to the selling agent? How often have you had to find a new doctor because your old doctor wasn't covered by your company's new insurance plan? How do you feel about having to pay 15% higher premiums just to allow the corporate shareholders their 15% share of the profits?

Then lets talk the uninsured. Nobody in the US goes entirely without care if they are dying or seriously ill. If an uninsured indigent patient goes to a hospital, his bill will either be paid by Medicaid (your tax dollars) or the costs will be eaten by the hospital, which in turn, passes on the higher costs to paying patients.

Face facts. You are paying for national health insurance already. The only difference between actual NHI and what we have now is that people like you and I always have to worry about losing our homes, cars, and life savings should we ever lose our health insurance due to losing our jobs.
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Booger Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. some people don't care
As long as they believe that people will be standing in line outside the hospital because of gov't ineptness, you won't get the point across.
It's the same mindset that makes them shop at Wal-Mart to save a few dollars, at the expense of perhaps losing their job overseas in the process.
Telling someone who doesn't agree about corporate shareholders making a profit is like shooting yourself in the foot. It makes you look spiteful. Profit is what it's all about in America. And as long as people won't be denied care, they view the system as being just fine.
There's my hook. How will the alternative be better than a system that works well enough, in their mind, as it is?
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Wrong!!!
Medicaid only covers the destitute. That means the hospital will seize all your assets and leave you with $1500. Then you'll qualify for Medicaid to pay the balance you owe them. It's truly a case of "your money or your life." You'll be alive, but you'll be left with nothing.

Add to that the cost shifting that has occurred, from the insured patients to the uninsured. Uninsured people are typically charged from three to five times what an insured patient will pay, and yes, the hospital WILL get paid, one way or another. Thus, insurance companies are being subsidized on the backs of those least able to pay.

Your model of cost shifting from the uninsured to the insured went out with the horse and buggy. It's now the reverse.
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Booger Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. My model?
It's not my model.
Sure, I have HMO.
And every year it covers less.
But many people are grateful to have it nonetheless.

We are dealing with people who don't care how others are treated.
See, even by your account, at least that person won't die.
So, if I'm dealing with the arguement on why we should change how things are done, that helps me not one bit. How can I convey this thought in terms of "what's it gunna do for me", to this guy at work?
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glarius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
13. Single Payer can work very well...Here's an example:
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 11:21 AM by glarius
I can tell you how Canada's Health Care works (very well)
Despite the lies the right wingers in the U.S.A. keep putting out about our health care system....We are quite satisfied with it...96% in the latest poll said they wanted to keep it...We need tweaking now and then for problems that pop up but here's how it works....We, the citizens CHOOSE OUR OWN doctors (contrary to what I've heard said on American TV)...We can change doctors whenever we wish....EVERYONE has access to ALL the specialists etc....There is a waiting period to see a specialist sometimes, for non-urgent problems...Anything urgent is looked after immediately...The government PAYS THE BILLS... PERIOD! The government has nothing to do with anything except paying the bills....You good people in the U.S.A. deserve a worry free system too....Good luck! :hi:
edit--I posted this because you in the U.S.A are always being warned off following in the path of the scary, socialistic Canadian health care system!
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. And Dennis Kucinich is the best candidate for delivering
a scheme that's like Canada's.

People are for it by at least 2:1, including a majority of GOP voters. It's favored by 9000 docs, including several former Surgeons General.

The time has come to elect the person who from the start proposed the right thing. We definitely do not need someone who's going to keep the insurance-company owners happy at our expense.
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Booger Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. I've seen more of his plan
than most others.
But it's still only cursory in my mind.

I like DK alot.
I'm not real sure about what I've seen on the remaking of the WPA though.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #18
28. "the remaking of the WPA"
It seems solid to me. The problem is that the for-profit guys want to send everything to Bombay or Tijuana or Ulaan Baatar. Dennis says, okay, then the nation has the job of being employer of last resort.

The WPA created a lot of VERY sturdy infrastructure, since they weren't trying to squeeze the maximum profit out of it. Plenty is still in use today. And it put a lot of people to work, and saved a lot of lives and families. Imagine what a New WPA could do today: high-speed rail, renewable energy installations, streetcars again (they still exist in Boston--not to mention Europe--and they're not anachronistic in the least) and interurban lines, a high-speed comm network, or a host of other forward-looking initiatives, all done with public money to put people to work. It sounds like a real plan, to me.
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Booger Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. yes it does
but does it deal with unskilled workers?
Workers with the ability to do basic assembly?
That's the thing that concerns me. Will it end up being like one huge city services crew? 2 guys digging and 4 "supervising"?
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lynndew2 Donating Member (401 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Deleted by poster
Edited on Sat Nov-01-03 12:49 AM by lynndew2
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #30
35. "2 guys digging and 4 "supervising"?"
Edited on Sat Nov-01-03 04:39 AM by Mairead
I don't know. I know that in at least some of those situations, the 'supervisors' are actually guys in other trades, electricians or plumbers maybe, waiting to do their thing. It'd be nice if things were scheduled better, that's certainly true, but there usually aren't all that many things going on in a given jurisdiction. But, yes, I bet there could be a lot of featherbedding unless people keep a grip.

As far as unskilled and semi-skilled people -- Dennis is hot on jobs, education, and rebuilding our base. So it doesn't sound right, to me, that he'd leave out the people he grew up with. Does it to you?
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #14
31. Does Canada force employers to pay
for its healthcare like Kucinic's plan? I don't know.

I like Mosley-Braun's plan better. She pays for it out of general revenues.
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Mairead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 04:47 AM
Response to Reply #31
36. Why do you prefer to tap general revenue?
And if you think that's better, why not suggest it to Dennis as an alternative? I myself prefer the implementation scheme of the Labor Party's 'Just Health Care' initiative to Dennis's, because it would be faster and it makes explicit provision for the redundant insurance-company workers. But Dennis's is easy to understand and hard to subvert, which is very good. Getting half the money in the form of a payroll tax puts that funding source right out there in front of you and me and everybody else. It's harder to steal the hubcaps off of something that's got a spotlight on it.
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. you in the U.S.A are always being warned off

That's because most of the sheeple in the USA are ignorant selfish yahoos who refuse to spend the energy to become familiar with the facts of life in the Corporate States of America.

After many years in the insurance industry I can tell you that the cost of sale for health insurance, in particular the individual family policy vs the group health policy, can run up to 40% of first year premium. It's not quite as bad with the group policy, but still up there near 20%.

I saw the industry go from one driven by the agents, with the products reflecting the need of the policyholders, to on driven by the beancounters. Policyholder complaints went thru the roof.

However tells you that the private sector can do it cheeper than the public sector does not know the facts. Compare the cost of sales of the insurance industry to the cost of medicare. Medicare pays a flat 3% to the administrator of the plan, which last I knew was BC/BS, and BC/BS even made a profit on that.

Insurance is no secret cabal. It works on the principle of spreading the risk over the largest pool possible. The larger the pool, the lower the risk for the individual members. You can have no bigger pool than the entire population, so you will see no greater efficiency than insuring the entire population as one pool.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. The stuff about "not choosing your own doctor" is
Edited on Fri Oct-31-03 11:57 AM by Lydia Leftcoast
from the British system, where doctors are government employees and are assigned to certain locations.

Even so, with all the talk about "choosing your own doctor," if you go to an HMO, you are presented with a list of doctors, who at that point are just names to you. So you get to choose--from a list of people that you know nothing about. Big deal.

I'm self-employed. I just spent nine years enrolled in one of the largest HMOs in the country until moving out of its service area. Although I supposedly had a personal physician, it was nearly impossible to get in to see her, because the HMO "cut costs" by referring everything that wasn't life-threatening to nurse practitions, nurse midwives, and physician's assistants. Even so, my monthly premiums went from $110/month to $275/month, the copayments went from 10% to 20%, the hospitalization charge went from nothing per day to $200 per day (even though you had to be half dead or scheduled for major, major surgery to get hospitalizedand, and even then they kicked you out while you were still groggy from the anesthesia practically), the ambulance charge went from $50 to $500, and I had no drug coverage.

I cannot believe that actual costs went up 150% in nine years. It looks as if the shareholders were demanding "performance" and got it on the backs of the enrollees.

If your employer is still paying for your health coverage, count yourself lucky. That may not be true next year if your employer decides that health insurance is "too expensive."

By the way, I know an American who lived in England for nine years. After never having to worry about paying for his medical expenses, he found the U.S. system infuriating, even though he (big deal) "got to choose his own doctor."

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glarius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. You pay premiums of $275 per mo. (I've seen others post as much as $500)
This is something else...We pay NO premiums...Our taxes pay for everything...We have as high a standard of living as you do so you can see we are not overtaxed in order to pay for this....It's not right or fair what is being done down there....
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #13
25. I agree with you 100%
I cannot even imagine worrying about health care,having grown up in Canada. Everyone I know is happy with the system. And of course there are problems,but the vast majority of Canadians understand that nothing is perfect.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #13
37. and you won't lose your house if you become seriously ill
for lack of being able to pay the outrageous costs, from hospital care down to the price of the prescriptions when you go home.
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southpaw72 Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
19. Is universal healthcare good for the economy?
I'm not economist... but I heard on the radio this morning that, despite the positive-looking number in the economy, job growth is still stagnant.

One of the major reasons they identified was that employers are worried about paying benefits -- health insurance especially -- so they are holding off on hiring new employees.

So my question is: if we have universal healthcare, would it encourage job growth?
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glarius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. I don't know any particulars, off hand, but I've heard that some companies
have located in Canada because they don't have to provide health care to their employees...
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. Hi southpaw72!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:




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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #19
29. Yes, it is good for the economy
Payroll tax for health care would be way cheaper than insurance premiums. Malpractice suits go down, because a major motivator is to get money for resulting ongoing cost of care. 50% of bankrupcties are due to health care bills, so creditors would no longer be assuming that burden.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
22. Govt haters
I really don't know why we have the government at all. Probably just ought to shut the whole thing down and we can all just fend for ourselves. Form our own county militias and pretend it's still 1776.

Although this is the exact reason I don't think single payer will pass. Too many people like your co-worker. (Although I bet your co-worker also complains about Medicaid people getting better health care than he does.) So we'll end up with another layer of bureaucracy. We've already got a hodge-podge delivery system, insurance, HMO's, medicaid, medicare, VA, military, state, county, workmen's comp, charities, and who knows what else. Some day I suppose people will wake up and realize a single payer plan makes so much more sense and really would be cheaper in the long run.

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glarius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. There's a huge saving in the paper work alone with single payer! n/t
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nbsmom Donating Member (419 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #22
34. I was looking for someone to bring this up.
Single payor in theory is a great idea.

Single payor in practice is going to take a lot of time, patience and probably more than a little bit of $$$ to get it going.

And the most fundamental concern (to me at least) is who does administerthe program? The government self-funds, but each state in effect becomes the payor? This would provide the large pools that share the risk and make it more affordable, but also limits any huge bureaucracy and waste.

Where the Clinton plan did hit some bumps IIRC, was around
1) who plays gatekeeper role?
2) what is a fair reimbursement (I've posted this elsewhere, but Medicare's reimbursement is NOT state of the art by any means...)
3) where does the $$$ get collected?
4) Do you build up HCFA or do you create a new agency?
5) Is it really wise to blow off some quite promising programs currently available in the private sector?

And, while I'm up here on my soapbox, please don't lump all HMOs and health plans into one greedy self-serving bucket. Kaiser and the NFP Blue Shield and Blue Cross plans have done some amazing things, without a great deal of fanfare (or blimps.)

I really, truly encourage you to look at the legislation currently in play in CA. There's the one that was recently passed and signed
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/pub/bill/sen/sb_0001-0050/sb_2_bill_20031006_chaptered.html
and then there's Sheila Kuehl's bill. http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin postquery?bill_number=sb_921&sess=CUR&house=B&author=kuehl
Both are promising steps toward what we need to accomplish in this country.
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Clete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-31-03 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
26. Here are a couple of websites to get you started.
The first is for Physicians For a National Health program.

http://www.pnhp.org/

This is for Health Canada

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/english/care/index.html

Both sites are very informative. I am looking at another Canadian site but didn't post it because I don't know if it is informative or not yet.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. Also, see this useful screed
Arguing about health care
eridani@scn.org

Effectively convincing people who haven't spent much time thinking about health care policy requires countering the blather that the likes of Harry and Louise have been using to make people in the US afraid that however bad the current situation is, change is too scary and government is bad anyway. The market is good, no matter what problem you are addressing. A way to effectively counter this attitude occurred to me after listening to Dennis Kucinich speak in Seattle. Talking about his universal health care plan, he said, "The market has failed!" three times, with an invitation to the crowd to join in, which people mostly did. He was, of course, preaching to the choir. This is a slogan that will cut no ice with the "market good, government bad" crowd, and it caused me to think about the various ways in which it could be taken.

Obviously, what Kucinich meant was that the market has failed to deliver health care, but the statement taken plain could also be seen to refer to markets in general. In that case, anyone who bought a computer ten years ago and has upgraded recently (and who almost certainly doesn't spend any time on being a health care policy wonk) is going to think "What on earth is this idiot ranting about?"

Clearly the markets for health care and the market for computers are pretty different. If you ask free market believers what governments should be doing, they will often say something like "Roads and police and firefighting are legitimate government occupations because that is infrastructure." What we need to do is to present a good case that health care is infrastructure too. Almost no one will argue that government should have no role in creating and maintaining infrastructure, other than a few Libertarian hard cases whose arguments are ignored by average citizens anyway. Health insurance paid for by individual is extremely expensive, and people who pay that way commonly feel ripped off because after they pay, they never see a penny of it. But if health care is infrastructure, it is analogous to police and fire protection. These services are also expensive, but do people feel that if their houses don't burn down and they don't get assaulted or robbed, the property taxes paying for these services are a ripoff? Should the expenses for these services be paid only by the people who are immediately served by them? Obviously not.

The slogan "Health care is infrastructure" beats "Health care is a right" as well. The latter makes people think of endlessly inflating entitlements that will drive the country into bankruptcy and still not satisfy everyone. Saying that health care is infrastructure not only directly and inevitably implies that health care is a right, but it gets people thinking about the issue in the most productive manner, namely as active citizens responsible for helping to determine public policy.

The reality is that health care providers and firefighters are very similar in an economic sense. Computer makers want to sell more computers, and people always want more memory, more bandwidth and more speed, but people would rather not get sick and rather not have their houses burn, but want effective help fast should those things happen. Imagine a city with three or four fire departments, paid for by dozens of different employer insurance schemes plus a few subsidized plans for the poor which a lot of low income people earn too much money to qualify for. A real mess, right? The firefighting equipment has to be duplicated several times, and the private insurance is always shifting around with employment patterns.("Whaddya mean you won't send a truck out? My employer turned in the new insurance paperwork last week!" "I'm sorry sir, but you must still be with Company X. We don't have you in our records.") And you'd also have a bunch of sorryass parasites sitting around trying to calculate which zip codes are likely to have the most fires, so they can stick their unlucky inhabitants with higher fees. Also each company would adjust prices dramatically upward to include profits as well.

Since no city in real life is actually stupid enough to have several different fire departments, there is no way of comparing that hypothetical situation with the current state of affairs in the provision of health care. But this was not always the case. There used to be private fire departments, and markers designating fire protection eligibility can still be found in antique shops. If your neighbor's house caught fire from the cinders of your fire, your personal firefighting service would just let the other house burn. If there was a dispute about coverage, competing services would often spray more water on each other than on the fire. Before the revolutionary war, that well-known commie rat bastard Benjamin Franklin put a stop to this practice with America's first public fire department in Philadelphia.)

We do know what happens to health care prices in towns with more than one hospital compared to towns of similar size with only one hospital-namely that the more hospitals, the more expensive health care is. And it's perfectly obvious why-if you think about the proper economic analogy, namely that of the fire department. And it's exactly the opposite of what happens with restaurants, barbers and computer manufacturers-more of those means better and cheaper products and services. Since firefighting is paid for as a public investment, they'll go to a house of $100,000 assessed valuation just as rapidly as one with a million dollar valuation, even though the property taxes are higher in the latter case. People in wealthy areas may have some overall service advantages, but the difference is trivial compared to the difference between people with and without health insurance.

Competition actually degrades performance directly as well. The single most important factor in determining your chances of surviving a complex operation is the number of those operations previously performed in that hospital. Divide the number of operations by the number of similar facilities in town, and you have calculated the relative incompetence factor. The same goes for firefighters-they keep their skills up by practicing on buildings slated for demolition that have been set on fire, or on fire towers which have serious restrictions as to where they can be located. Therefore there are limited numbers of these, and dividing them up among competing departments would mean that everyone would have lower skill levels. Compare this with computers, where sales and product improvement efforts mean more computers are made and sold. Somehow you just can't sell people on the virtues of having more heart attacks and house fires, so more competitors means less real-life practice for everyone.

In one respect, public payment for health insurance is more like paying for roads than firefighters. Just as roadbuilding is paid for by the public but almost always contracted out to private outfits, medical providers would continue to be private operators even though publicly financed. Road maintenance is done by both public and private employees-how you decide between the two options is by putting the matter up to public debate and arguing about it. (This is called "activism" these days, although it used to be just plain old "citizenship.")

That firefighting is a public business leads to putting arguments of how to pay for it in the public venue. Service providers will always want to do less work for more money, and service recipients want more service for less money. No conceivable social arrangement can alter that basic fact of life. What happens is that unions and professional organizations argue about the solutions in public, bond issues and tax rates are proposed, and everybody comes to a compromise arrangement. And there is no reason to think that the same process won't work with health care providers. You can't cover everything and pay everyone what s/he thinks s/he deserves, so you put all the arguments on the public table and come up with a compromise.

And this segues into other public policy areas as well. In the case of firefighting, there are building codes and enforcement to argue about, fire safety and extinguisher training, smoke alarm requirements, etc. In the case of health, there is urban design (making walking and biking easier, for instance), health education and awareness, arguing about how to evaluate various technologies for proven results, etc. By comparison, making matters of computer design subject to this kind of public dispute would be unbelievably stupid.

And finally there is the question of how do we afford single payer. Establishment opinion says that the Kucinich proposal is outrageously expensive compared to the proposals of other candidates. Of course they fail to mention that we would no longer have private insurance expenses, that out of pocked expenses would be dramatically reduced, and that we would continue to have the government funding that we now have. The fact is that we are already paying for universal health care-we just aren't getting it. Suppose your electric bill is $400 and you don't have that much. And suppose that you check your back yard and find out that someone is tapping into the line between the power provider and your house, siphoning off as much as they can get by with. All of a sudden the fact that you don't have $400 isn't the main problem any more.

The health care plans of all the other candidates (note that Sharpton and Braun just advocate single payer--they have no specific plans posted on their sites) are in fact more expensive than that of Kucinich, because they all assume that we continue to spend what we are already spending, but should add more to that total in order to further subsidize private insurance companies, who would continue to drain off funds in the pipeline flowing from the public to health care providers. For those who like equations, those plans would cost out as

Total proposed health care spending = Current spending + incremental proposal extra expenses - x, where x is whatever unknown amount of savings would be produced by the plan. (Extending preventive care, no matter how incrementally, can be expected to produce some saving.)

Kucinich plan = current spending only - x.

So remember boys and girls-HEALTH CARE IS INFRASTRUCTURE!

For a nice analysis of Canadian Single Payer with references, see below.

http://www.geocities.com/stewjackmail/pdf/uhc-canus.pdf

A note on cost control--an analogy is controlling the movements of a herd of cattle. You can do the sensible thing and build a fence around them, allowing them to move freely within the confines, or you can hire a passle of cowpokes with sets of reins controlling each cow individually. The former is what Canadians do with global budgeting, and the latter is what HMOs and insurance companies do in the US. It's obvious which system gives providers and patients the most choice.
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ronatchig Donating Member (350 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-01-03 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #32
38. Tho I can't verify it,
I recently read that medicare delivers it's services with a 3% overhead for adminstration while private insurance co.'s typically spend 32% on adminstraion. When one considers the number of different co's in business this is truly a remarkable amount of money.
I suppose that when the pro market forces are confronted with the facts, they will continue to lie and bribe to keep access to their golden goose.
I for one say enough. Medicare group E for everyone and now!
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