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ACK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 04:39 PM
Original message
What is the deal with the NATO thing -- Wesley Clark question
Edited on Tue Nov-25-03 04:39 PM by ACK
I remember some post pointing back to a freeper site.

One of the buggers said there that Clark got kicked out of his post.

Some very nasty crap

What is the real deal?

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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 04:48 PM
Original message
My version?
Clark went over Shelton's head (and Cohen's). They went behind Clinton's back (at least according to Bubba) and chopped Clark in revenge. They assured everyone it was just a job shuffle, and Clark took his leave, medals and commendations in hand.

Fast forward to this campaign. Shelton is asked his opinion of Clark. He says Clark was removed from the NATO post for reasons of "character and integrity." He declines to expand on that statement but it is probably accurate in his own mind. In the military world you simply do not go over your superior's head, even if you are convinced you are right. Clark apparently felt that since he was the Supreme Commander in Europe his positions should be listened to. The guys between him and CLinton apparently did not agree.

It should be noted that a million or more Muslims in the Balkans think Clark was right as well, since it was their lives he was trying to save.

So, when Clark calls the comment a smear, it's hard to find any grounds for argument. Shelton most likely never thought his offhand comment would turn into such a controversy but he doesn't seem to see any reason to revisit his comments.

To some of us, the fact that SHelton has been a long time friend and advisor to Senator Edwards also has some bearing but the press mostly finds that of little consequence.
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Think Globally Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. Try a more relaible source...
Not only is Obergruppenfuhrer Clark a militarist and a crypto-conservative, he's unhinged!

"Not only did Clark lord over the first unprovoked aerial bombardment of a major European city (Belgrade) since Adolf Hitler's Luftwaffe pounded virtually defenseless European cities, but he almost got into a shooting war with Russian peacekeeping troops in Kosovo."

Read the whole story here:
http://www.counterpunch.org/madsen09182003.html
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. this has also come up many times here and been shot down
It's boring that the same garbage keeps coming up.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. No kidding? Couterpunch the authority in misinformation
Tinfoil city :tinfoilhat::tinfoilhat::tinfoilhat:
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Hey! There are rules on this board,
so you'll just have to imagine what I would otherwise say about your post and your "reliable source."

"Russian peacekeeping troops"? LOL

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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. I would hardly call You or Counterpunch reliable
:hurts:

This is slightly better...

Defending the General
The New Yorker's unfair slam on Wes Clark and his role in the Kosovo war.
By Fred Kaplan


http://slate.msn.com/id/2091194/

So is this:

General Clark on the Hustings: Complexity and Contradiction
By N. R. KLEINFIELD

Published: November 23, 2003

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/23/politics/campaigns/23CLAR.html?hp
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_NorCal_D_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
33. LOL
Counterpunch is a subsidiary of the Green party. They have no credibility IMO. :tinfoilhat:
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
2. from what I remember
People in the DOD didn't like him ... too independent or something.

They forced him out early.

He did nothing wrong ... possibly he was too good for his superiors.

I'm sure there are people here with links and more details. This has been brought up and shot down many times here.

But the right keeps on spinning the negatives.
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. And people like ThinkGLobally keep helping them. n/t
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Think Globally Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. If you want to sell out to the right again...
Go ahead and nominate Clark, and enjoy 4 more years of W. At least you'll be helping the Green Party grow.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. There is no way
that Bush has a chance in hell of beating Clark. That isn't even a possibility. Why do you think the WH doesn't want Clark to win? Puuuuuhleeze.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. Clark Is More Liberal Than Dean, the Other Front-Runner
So who's selling out to the right?

DTH
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dfong63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #16
30. dean wasn't fundraising for the repubs 2 years ago
clark talks the talk, but he hasn't proven he walks the walk. and he stumbles even when just talking the talk, too (IWR).


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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Clark wasn't planning to ship nuclear waste to poor areas of Texas...
Do you really want to go tit for tat on Dean vs. Clark?
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. a completely unfounded wacked out theory...
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. More insight here
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. The right? How about the center and the left???
The General was exposed to neo-conservative dominated military at his level of command. He is a militarist IMHO. He could harm the Democratic Party in the long run too.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. A clark win
would put the fatal dagger in the Democratic Party.
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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. Yah, nothing to kill a political party
like winning the presidency.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. Your post makes no sense
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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. I understand you not
You said, "A clark win would put the fatal dagger in the Democratic Party."

I said, "Yah, nothing to kill a political party like winning the Presidency." - Sarcasm

I dunno, it sounded to me like you think that if Clark wins the Democratic Party will be doomed. I, on the other hand, think that having a Democratic President would be a good thing for the Party. It would certainly be much much much better than staying with Bush, unless you are somehow expecting a 3rd party candidate to win...
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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. So...
If you come into contact with something, you become that thing?

Let's say I once talked to some neo-nazis, and I disagreed with them. Does that make me a neo-nazi? No?... By this logic most DUers would actually be freepers.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Come in contact w/it?
He lived it!
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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. So in your considered opinion
He is a flaming neo-con? :crazy:

Or do I misunderstand you?
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Did I say that?
I really, truly would like to know why you want to put words in my mouth.
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Mattforclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Of course not
Bobthedrummer said it. Your post 'He lived it!' gave me the impression that you agree with Bob. If you do not after all agree with him, I extend my apologies to you.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. Ooh, He's POLLUTED, He's INFECTED!
Clark was "exposed" to neo-conservative dominated military? So that means he MUST be a neo-con, right?

Give me a break. Talk about guilt by association.

It must really chap your hide that Clark is winning your little pre-Thanksgiving poll by the widest margin I've ever seen here, doesn't it?

DTH
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. neo-conservative dominated military?
At what point did the military become dominated by neo-conservatives?
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
12. Link to yesterday's thread
In that thread, you will find the link to day before yesterday's thread. In that thread, you will find five articles from 1999 dealing with this issue.
Yesterday's:http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=768632
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carpediem Donating Member (700 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
14. Here is a link to someone who has researched
this a little and has posted some links to what his superiors had to say about him in 1999.

http://www.forclark.com/story/2003/11/15/162840/80
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
15. Here it is...
We've all heard the story by now. A few weeks back, Gen. Hugh Shelton, the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, was at a forum in California where he was asked, "What do you think of Gen. Wesley Clark, and would you support him as a presidential candidate?"

"I've known Wes for a long time. I will tell you the reason he came out of Europe early had to do with integrity and character issues, things that are very near and dear to my heart. I'm not going to say whether I'm a Republican or a Democrat. I'll just say Wes won't get my vote." Shelton replied.

There are two problems with that statment. The first is unless Shelton reveals what those "integrity and character issues" are, the charges are meaningless and they show a lack of integrity unto themselves. Afterall, how can Wesley Clark possibly rebutt them if he doesn't know what the issues are? This is like someone telling you on your wedding day, "I wouldn't marry him/her if I were you... I'm not going to say why... just trust me..." Huh? How does one respond to that?

The second problem is the assertion that Clark came out of Europe early based on the mysterious and vague charges of "integrity and character" issues. In all actuality, Clark was relieved of duty based on personal vendettas carried by General Hugh Shelton and Admiral Leighton (Snuffy) Smith. It was Shelton who called Clark to inform him that his nato assignment would end early. (According to Waging Modern War, Shelton would not even show Clark the courtesy of extending the phone call a few minutes to work out a face-saving exit.) President Clinton privately told Clark, "I had nothing to do with it." http://www.farcaster.com/mhonarchive/hauserreport/msg00467.html

So what drove General Shelton to the decision to recall a very successful General from the field after executing a very successful war?

He directly crossed Admiral Leighton Smith, the four-star commander of Mediterranean nato forces. Although nato demanded a full Serb withdrawal from the besieged city of Sarajevo, Smith urged that a brief bombing pause in early September be extended indefinitely, since, as he explained to Ambassador Richard Holbrooke, he thought the United States had no business intervening. But Clark, then still a three-star, insisted in a heated telephone call that the bombing should continue as planned. As Holbrooke writes in To End A War, "I could tell from the noises emanating from Clark's cell phone that he was being scolded by a very angry, very senior American naval commander." Smith--who quickly alerted his superiors to Clark's insolence--had the inclinations of nato policymakers on his side; after all, heads of state had neglected Bosnia as long as was politically tolerable. But Clark was right, and he won: The bombing resumed and caused the Bosnian Serbs to withdraw from Sarajevo within two weeks of Clark's clash with Smith. That November, the warring parties met at Dayton to negotiate a peace accord. Clark was soon afterward awarded his fourth star--despite ferocious resistance from the Army, which would have preferred his retirement. http://www.farcaster.com/mhonarchive/hauserreport/msg00467.html

During the above-mention events, President Clinton seethed, privately calling Smith insubordinate, and eventually forcing the admiral to resume action. http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/books/2001/0109.thompson.html

So, we see, Clark defied Admiral Smith, won Clinton's backing, and resumed the campaign. The intervention ended less than two weeks later.

So here's the setup. Clark defied Admiral Smith. Smith alerted his superiors to Clark's "insolence" (but apparantly not Bill Clinton, who agreed with Clark and disagreed with Smith.) Those superiors were most likely Richard Cohen and General Shelton.

Shelton, Smith, and Cohen were angry. Not only had they been defied, but they were proven wrong and were not backed by their Commander in Chief.

They fought Clark being awared his Fourth star - wanting him retired instead. They had been out manuervered by Wesley Clark and Clark won the Kosovo intervention. Embarassing to be sure.

I don't know how thick Admiral Leighton W. Smith and General Shelton were during the Kosovo conflict, before it, or after it, but they have both been guest speakers at the Patterson School of Diplomacy and International Commerce.

http://www.uky.edu/RGS/Patterson/faculty.htm

I would suspect their association goes back a bit further.

As for Clark and his "character issues," he "risked his career to confront the uniformed reluctance to use force in defense of human rights."

Clark was disliked (even hated?) by the upper Pentagon brass because...

1. Such liberal/progressive views like humanitarian missions and nation building for the military made the Pentagon uneasy...

Despite his credentials as a warrior - 34 years in the Army, including a Silver Star, two Bronze Stars and a Purple Heart earned in Vietnam - {Clark} argues that the U.S. military must learn how to perform such nontraditional functions as peacekeeping and even nation-building, because that's what it will be doing in the 21st century, like it or not. And, since it's no small task to turn gung-ho soldiers into order-keeping policers, it's all the more urgent that the entire military start rethinking its doctrine immediately.

Paradigm-shifting views such as these did not make Clark popular with his superiors at the Pentagon, including former Secretary of Defense William Cohen.


http://www.newamerica.net/index.cfm?pg=article&pubID=528

2. Wesley Clark welcomes homosexuals in the military

I'm not sure that I'd be in favor of policy. I supported that policy. That was a policy that was given. I don't think it works. It works better in some circumstances than it does in others. But essentially we've got a lot of gay people in the armed forces, always have had, always will have. And I think that, you know, we should welcome people that want to serve. - MSNBC

Former NATO supreme commander Wesley Clark says it is time for the ban on gays in the military to be lifted. - gayPASG


3. Clark was/is too intelligent for the military "culture."

...General Barry McCaffrey told the Washington Post: "This is no insult to army culture ... but he was way too bright, way too articulate, way too good looking and perceived to be way too wired to fit in with our culture."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1044318,00.html

I would say these sound like integrity and character issues I admire.

More...

After prosecuting NATO's first war by uniting its 19 countries and defeating the Yugoslav Army with no alliance casualties, the four-star general had ruffled enough feathers at the Pentagon that his career abruptly ended.

"Wes could not possibly be a better leader," Taylor said. "I really respect Wes in a very special way for his brilliance. But he's also a man of real character and high personal values."

Any problem Clark had with higher-ups in the Pentagon was due to "professional jealousy" by officials who had trouble with a highly intelligent man who made his case with solid evidence and debated vigorously, Taylor said.

"The guy, when he starts doing something, is exhaustively focused on achieving the mission," said retired Gen. Barry McCaffrey, who has known Clark since the two taught at West Point decades ago. He preceded Clark as commander of U.S. Southern Command.

The tension with Washington stemmed partly from the failure of bureaucrats to give Clark resources he needed as the commander on the scene, Grange said.

During and after the conflict there was friction between Clark and his superiors, Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Gen. Hugh Shelton and Defense Secretary William Cohen, apparently over Clark's high-profile persona and his willingness to challenge them.

At the root of this conflict, Taylor said, was jealousy of a "superstar" by Clark's superiors at the Pentagon. "Shelton and Cohen didn't like Wes being direct with them, arguing his case," Taylor said. "They wanted someone they could tell what to do."

more...

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/Nation/AB925B9C76D6B82686256DBC00375519?OpenDocument&Headline=Clark\'s+rise+in+military+impressed+and+rankled+observers

and more...

U.S. News Online
Outlook 8/9/99
the real reason for Clark's ouster may be that the famously political general was impolitic. Pentagon insiders say Clark's frequent and public complaint that politicians had tied his hands during the Kosovo war irked his boss, Defense Secretary William Cohen. Cohen reportedly also was none too pleased that Clark's aides called him "Senator Cohen," a mocking reference to his past as an elected official. The bottom line, says one Pentagon official: "You don't piss off your boss and get away with it-

1999 UNIVERSAL PRESS SYNDICATE
No wonder these generals and admirals in what once was called the War Department got rid of the one genuine military thinker and hero we have, Gen. Wesley K. Clark. What did he think he was doing, insisting upon winning?

The simple truth right now is that nobody says that Clark was wrong. In fact, the respected German Gen. Klaus Naumann, just-retired head of the NATO military committee, told a group of us here recently, in his review of the still-unresolved conflict, that "the reluctance to use overwhelming force allowed Slobodan Milosevic to calculate his risks. ... I would press harder for visible preparations and visible planning."

But it was the "go-slow" guys, the "they'll give in with a just little more punishment" chaps (in fact, the very same mentality that gave us Vietnam!), the ones who would rewrite all of the dictums of von Clausewitz and Sun Tzu about the need to strike hard, fast and unrelentingly, who were unquestionably and provably wrong -- and whose political caution cost tens of thousands of lives and came close to losing the war for NATO.

So who goes? Wesley Clark!


Levin Statement on Departure of General Wesley Clark
July 28, 1999
WASHINGTON Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., issued the following statement today following the announcement that General Wesley Clark would step down as NATO supreme commander in April, 2000:

"I have known and worked with General Wes Clark for many years. He is an outstanding military officer. We all owe him a debt of gratitude for his tremendous leadership of NATO's military forces during the recent Kosovo conflict. I look forward to working closely with General Clark through the end of his term as SACEUR."


By: EDWARD N. LUTTWAK
Published in the LA Times August 6, 1999
Edward N. Luttwak is a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington

Defeated generals are sent home in disgrace, but it is most unusual to dismiss victorious ones. Whatever the future may hold for Kosovo--and it looks rather grim at present--there is no doubt that NATO's war against Serbia ended in victory. Nor is it in doubt that its military commander, Gen. Wesley K. Clark, was very much the victorious general of that war.

NewsWeek
By John Barry and Christopher Dickey,
Aug. 9, 1999

Gen. Wesley Clark, supreme Allied Commander in Europe, waged and won NATO's campaign for Kosovo without losing a single soldier in action. For the U.S. military, the victory was uniquely—historically—bloodless. Last week Clark learned it was also thankless.

In a midnight call from Washington, Clark was told he'd be relieved of his command at NATO next April, a few months earlier than he'd anticipated. The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Hugh Shelton, presented the decision as a simple matter of giving the post to another deserving officer. Clark, who got the call in the middle of a quick trip to the Baltic republics, was caught off balance. He'd seen Shelton in the United States just the week before. Not a word had been breathed of his replacement. According to one source privy to the conversation, Clark told Shelton the move would be read as a vote of no-confidence in his leadership.

Shelton, brisk and businesslike, said there was no way around it. His replacement—Air Force Gen. Joseph Ralston, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff—would be forced by law to retire if he weren't given a new slot by April. Clark wasn't buying it. In two conversations that night and again the next day, sources say, he argued that his replacement would be a blow to U.S. efforts to reshape NATO. Shelton wasn't moved. Clark, the 54-year-old warrior, was going to have to step aside for Ralston, the 55-year-old Washington insider.

there's more articles from Wash Post/Dana Priestly, Seattle times, etc...
http://wesleyclark.h1.ru/departure.htm
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. An absolutely awesome post
The only thing I would add is that some of those (not all by any means) who now say they are attacking Clark "from the Left" are actually attacking him from the right, and I don't only mean Republican party operatives. I mean Far Right, people who hate Clark for standing up to the ethnic cleansing that was taking place in Europe. They are bitter at Clark for siding with "Muslim" Albanian Kosovo residents over "Christian" Serbian nationalists. I saw that very phrase recently in a long bitter and very distorted attack on Clark in reply to a defence of him in Salon, as if it somehow were important to underline the religious affiliations of the warring sides. God forbid, Clark had the nerve to oppose the Extreme Christian Right in Europe! They ususally know enough not to tip their rightest hand so blatently however. It serves their purposes more to attack Clark from the left when they are trolling liberal leaning audiances and web sites.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
23. Aside from the opening post, this thread is another in a long line ...
..of regurgitated and debunked far left conspiratorial garbage.

When all else fails to slow Clark's campaign, whine about the military.

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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. Slow his campaign?
He's doing just fine w/that all on his lonesome.

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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. Examples?
Edited on Tue Nov-25-03 06:13 PM by wyldwolf
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
34. Damn! Damn! Damn!
Edited on Tue Nov-25-03 06:01 PM by Donna Zen
The NATO thing in the Header sucked me in. I thought this would be a serious discussion of Clark's proposal to the foreign relation council in NYC last week. It is an interesting speech, but before I go further I need to get a hard copy and study what he has to say.

Instead...what!!!! WHAT! More knee-jerk anti-military and national security spew? Oh, that's just what the Democratic Party needs. And don't even think for a second that you are so much more pure than I am.

For all of the uniformed-phobics please apply some logic here. You currently have a large group of NON military knuckle draggers running the show. These are guys that never walked the walk. None of their blood ever seeped through a US uniform. And yet, they just want to bomb the fuck out of the world. Boom!

And then you have a man who yes, rose through the ranks to a position that is given "Head of State" status, telling you war must always be a last resort.

If the Democratic Party can not prove to the American people that they too are concerned about preventing another 911, we lose. Now if you want to lose, that is your choice. Unfortunately, you are taking the rest of us down with you and that includes my family. And that is what really pisses me off. My kid is going to suffer because you derived some weird pleasure from proving how much more pure you are than Wesley Clark.

Why don't you spend more time calling bush a baby killer? Or how about Gen. Ralston who now advises Dean?

Not a clue about what's coming down....not a clue...The Matrix of Rightwing tricksters.

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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
35. over and over and over again
where will it stop? Nobody knows.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. It will stop
when he drops out of the race.

Problem solved!

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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. dupes for Bush
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Nope
I am a member of the Dean Campaign and I have my Dean Campaign Membership Card to prove it!



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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Oh yeah
the defacto nominee as declared by the right wing press.
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