Is Christianity an aggressively recruiting religion by nature?

[JPace]

I see the Christian right becoming politically
powerful and I am soooo uncomfortable with
this. I don't go to church often but have a
deep spititual belief that I practice daily.
I don't believe that my beliefs are the only
truth and respect all religions that practice
peaceful philosophies. Why do so many Christians
believe it is their duty to convert others to
their belief? Now it seems to be taking over
the government and this is scary. How can this
ever be stopped as long as Christians believe
they have the only truth?

[brainshrub]

1. Answer: Yes. (nt)

[Jacobin]

2. Ya mean, like, uhm, EVANGELISTS?

Why yes, I believe they do. :-)

[Devoir]

3. If you feel you have something good,

you want to share it with others. It is just that simple.

[JPace]

5. "If you feel you have something good,"

I think it goes deeper than that. I think
they believe that the whole human race
should be Christian and for many that is
a goal.

[Devoir]

14. That may be true

and I don't think that is inconsistent with sentiment expressed in my original post.

[Flubadubya]

31. Christians thought they had something good to share...

when they destroyed the Incan and Mayan civilizations. They have always thought they had something better to offer as they have gone about setting societies and cultures back by millennia.

That "something good" you talk about exists in each and every person on this planet and is not the sole "property" of born-again Christians. This "great wonder" within man can be accessed by each and anyone who seeks to find it, without someone from another faith or culture declaring that they have sole claim to it and that they are the only ones who can bestow that blessed spirituality upon the rest of the salvation-deprived inhabitants of earth.

Jesus said himself that the "kingdom of heaven is within you"... and he didn't just mean Christians, and he didn't mean that only Christians can find it... and he especially did not mean that only Christians can reveal it to others. It is completely within the power and the capability of each and every human being to find his or her own way to divinity.

I have no problem with sincere Christians wanting to share their "good news", but history has shown that the mission has mostly been overrun by dogamtic and religiously insane zealots, thus doing more harm than good when all is said and done.

Unfortunately, Christian history does not promise the best for people in need. As when contemplating the pedominant "Christian leaders" in this country today, I am left trembling in fear at the vile idiologies that they adhere to and the harm that can come from them should they ever gain the absolute political powers that they covet.

[JPace]

32. "Christians thought they had something good to share..."

"I am left trembling in fear at the vile idiologies that they adhere to and the harm that can come from them should they ever gain the absolute political powers that they covet."

Beautifully said, it is what I feel but you expressed
it much better than I could.

[Devoir]

52. I don't see that those who destroyed the Mayans, etc

were acting as Christians or under Christian principles. Hitler, as you know, also claimed to lead in the name of Christianity. Anybody can say what they want. Actions tell the tale. True Christians believe they have something good to share. Those who murder and maim are not really Christians, just as the WTC bombers were not respresenting Islam, though they said they were.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

75. The Conquistadors did EVERYTHING in the name of God...

...including the killing of people they considered to be less than human because of their non-Christian culture.

Ask the deeply religious American pioneers what they thought of the Indians they displaced and usually killed at every opportunity.

You're stating a personal opinion in terms of your own belief in Christianity, not what history has recorded. As you stated, "Actions tell the tale".

[LeahMira]

111. Look again...

I don't see that those who destroyed the Mayans, etc.
... were acting as Christians or under Christian principles.

Then somehow they managed to talk themselves into thinking they were.

Those who murder and maim are not really Christians, just as the WTC bombers were not respresenting Islam, though they said they were.

"Christianity" is a pretty inclusive term. It seems to include every religious group from the charismatic, pentecostal, speaking in tongues groups to the "high" Episcopalians. Supposedly, the commonality is that all these groups follow the teachings of Christ. Sometimes I do wonder which ones though.

You are saying that by their actions those who murder and maim are proving that they are not really Christians, but there are certain Christians who support their fellow Christians if the reason they are murdering and maiming is to save fetal life ... or to defend the nation's oil supply.

If Christians believe that these certain individuals are not truly Christian, it is for Christians to disavow them, loud and clear. Saying that they aren't Christians on a message board is fine but where is Donohue and the Catholic League, for instance? Why isn't he on Good Morning America telling everyone that these folks aren't Christians? Why isn't the head of the Southern Baptists (or someone with some authority to speak for them) standing up on Meet the Press to say that the Southern Baptists solemnly condemn those who harrass or maim and mutilate people who are gay?

I think most people know what Christians are supposed to do, and we realize that no one is perfect, but at the same time Christians are very wishy-washy about officially distancing themselves from confirmed allegedly Christian maimers and murderers. That's really too bad.

[Apollo]

120. this, unfortunately , is quite true

If you were to listen to Christian talk radio, you'd hear exactly that. The disavowing of militant extremists of any creed. There are misguided people who are extremist Christian. Just as there are extremist muslims. They are misguided. But to reject those that are NOT extremist because of it is biggotry. We all know that the muslim extremists that attacked the WTC do not speak for the peaceful nation of Islam. They are radical murderers. Well there are certainly radical Christians too who need to be stopped. Christ taught peace and love. Christians follow Christ.

[maha]

293. Christian "sharing" something like the Borg ...

You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

For a lot of really aggressive "evangelists," it isn't about "sharing." It's about assimilating others into their tribe.

[forgethell]

300. They believe

that they should witness to the entire world, yes. Forcible conversion of the entire world is a belief of Islam, as I read the Qu'ran.

Although it is true that in the past, when the ruler of country became Christian, he forcibly converted his subjects, it is not a requirement of the Bible, or Christianity to do so, as I read it, anyway.

[Kasper]

287. If you feel...

...and if they don't want to share it with you, you force them to their knees and kill them.

Sorry, but this is absurd. Have you read anything during your stay here on earth?

Kasper

[alexwcovington]

Now let's be fair

Not all Christians are right-wing assholes. But the ones that are will tell you that "the Bible tells them so."

[arewethereyet]

4. Christian are supposed to take the Gospel to the world

but this has nothing to do with politics. Those that do seem to have zigged when they should have zagged.

How can they claim to believe if they don't think they have the only truth ? Its been made pretty clear to them in scripture that they ONLY way to heaven is through Jesus Christ.

[UTUSN]

6. Zeus RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! n/t

[arewethereyet]

7. not recently but could make a comeback I guess

n/t

[Jacobin]

10. My bet is on the Druids.

[arewethereyet]

13. they do seem to have been biding their time till the RC's belly up

and Europe is ripe for a new look.

That doesn't look too far off either.

[Kinkistyle]

45. Have you looked into Cthulhu and the Elder Gods?

Because they are coming to take over the Earth whether you believe in them or not. But if you worship and help their cause, they promise to eat you last :)

[youngred]

12. Not necessarily

there are some who believe that and some that don't

[arewethereyet]

15. sorry, confused. believe which ?

the spreading the Gospel part or the going through Jesus part ? Or both ?

[youngred]

8. Almost all are to some degree

and please, Please, PLEASE don't lump all Christians in with the evangelical right

[durutti]

9. Memetics

All religions, trends, etc. are self-perpetuating.

[JPace]

17. "Memetics"

This one was not in my dictionary, but
I did find it on the net. Interesting.

[Solomon]

11. The fact that christians feel the need to convert everyone is

the problem. I told my dad one day that all a christian is supposed to do with regard to others is to spread the word of christ to people who have not heard it. If the person you encounter has already heard the gospel, it's not up to you to convert that person. He just looked at me with his mouth open. He couldn't respond to that.

Islam has the same problem. The need to convert everyone.

[JPace]

21. "Islam has the same problem"

Two religions that believe they have
the only truth can never embrace as
equals on any level.

[varun]

58. Both Islam and Christianity belive in proselytization

Islam has been more aggressive in the past. Both have a bloody history of conversion under the fear of the sword.

[elfwitch]

175. Makes me proud to be Jewish

Jews don't partcipate in or encourage proselytization. Conversion is a long process. They make really sure you want to convert. You get turned away. You have to go to see counselors and rabbis and classes and you still might not be allowed to convert.

[Walt Starr]

177. This is why I consider Judaism an admirable faith

I put Judaism up there with Buddhism because of this. These are both very beautiful, honorable, and enlightened faiths.

[varun]

210. Hindus dont believe in proselytization either

In fact, they are quite opposed to converting other faiths into Hinduism.

On the other hand, Hinduism is not really a religion, but a mixture of philosophies.

[LeahMira]

239. Me, too.

Jews don't partcipate in or encourage proselytization. Conversion is a long process. They make really sure you want to convert. You get turned away.

Three times, even!

You have to go to see counselors and rabbis and classes and you still might not be allowed to convert.

Well, that doesn't happen too often. They don't convert you just so you can marry a Jewish guy or gal in the synagogue though. The "intended" may have led you toward an interest in Judaism, but you are the one that has to personally commit to it.

The one thing that made me question what I was doing was when we were reminded that Jews had been persecuted throughout time, and while we might be willing to accept that possibility for ourselves, we needed to think that we were accepting it for any children we might have also. That's a lot to think about.

My three Jewish children are glad I decided as I did though.

[elfwitch]

262. I never regret converting....

I am proud to be a Jew, like Abraham, a convert.
I am proud to be raising my son as a strong Jewish man.
I hope that as he gets older, he will not feel left out or cheated by my and my husband's decision.
I hope that he is, as we say in our Shabbat prayers, a light unto the other nations.

[Scott Lee]

24. Islam has the same problem? I've NEVER had one at my door.

Nor on my phone. Nor on the street. I have never been proselyted to by a Muslim. I have been approached a hundred times by "Christians".

I believe the Muslim extreme goes to encouraging people to read the Qur'an.

[SahaleArm]

27. That's because you live in a 'Christian' country.

Organized religion and evangelism goes hand-in-hand.

[forgethell]

29. Boy are your wrong.

Muslims are obliged to convert, by force if necessary, or subdue the whole world. It's in the Qur'an. It was an eye-opener to me when I read that book.

but think, why are there Muslims in America, but none in Saudi Arabia?

[LeahMira]

241. As are Christians?

Muslims are obliged to convert, by force if necessary, or subdue the whole world. It's in the Qur'an.

There's a lot of force mentioned in the Bible also. Hopefully, we are past stoning adulterers. I'd imagine most Muslims are past any expectation of subduing the world also. But, there's always the fundamentalists in any religion that cause all the headaches, eh?

[forgethell]

302. That's Old Testament stuff.

Find, in the NEw Testament where a Christian is obliged to convert. Witness, yes, but conversion is the task of the Holy spirit. Now, some later Christians got it wrong, let's admit that, but they are not commanded in their holy scripture to force others to convert.

On the other hand, read the Qu'ran. in IT, the Muslims ARE commanded to kill the unbeliever.

[LeahMira]

242. As are Christians?

Muslims are obliged to convert, by force if necessary, or subdue the whole world. It's in the Qur'an.

There's a lot of force mentioned in the Bible also. Hopefully, we are past stoning adulterers. I'd imagine most Muslims are past any expectation of subduing the world also. But, there's always the fundamentalists in any religion that cause all the headaches, eh?

[JCMach1]

291. Exactly, never once has the local imam knocked at my door

and I live in an overwhelmingly Islamic country. Our University even has its own mosque.

Not once have I ever been hit in the face with their religion. In fact I saw a local show (Dubai TV) where an imam was bemoaning the fact that Islam (today at least) doesn't do more to bring people aboard.

[forgethell]

28. You're right!!

Christians are obliged to witness, only. The Holy Spirt does any conversion that takes place

[Rowdyboy]

16. I'm an Episcopalian and I haven't tried to

"convert" anyone during the last 30 years (spiritually anyway-sexually is a WHOLE different story)

[arewethereyet]

19. I'm Episcopal as well, its not pushed much there

but you and I were both taught to. Evangalize that is...

[Rowdyboy]

36. Yes, but not to the point of irritating people...

That's why I like Episcops, we're not pushy..

[Silverhair]

40. Episcopalians have also had a declining membership for about...

50 years. The churchs that aggressively recruit, (They call it evangelize.)are growing greatly in membership and influence.

[KoKo]

160. True, and I've seen a rise in "Contemporary Services" for Protestant

Churches here in NC. Folks seem to really like Contemporary Christian Music and less restrictive services. Even one of the new Episcopal Churches here is "experimenting" with the new "Casual" Religious Services.

The worrysome thing to me is that it become almost like "entertainment," rather than religious worship, but that's the way things are heading here and it does get the young kids involved because of the music and the entertainment value.

[karlschneider]

18. I love real Christians. They are very rare. Here's how to tell if they

really are:

If somebody goes out of their way to inform you (and everyone) that they are a Christian (and particularly if "born again" is mentioned), you can be VERY sure they are sanctimonious, hypocritical pricks.

Watch what they DO, not what they SAY.

It really is that simple.

[arewethereyet]

20. well thats half right

the watching what they do part is a dead giveaway but the rest is judgemental and biggoted.

[JPace]

22. "but the rest is judgemental and biggoted"

I have known a few people from the religious
right and always felt that they thought I was
somehow lost and to be pitied. We could be
having a conversation and out of nowhere they
would say things like "praise God", or "Thank
you Jesus". I never knew how to respond and
it was startling, a real conversation stopper
and I felt like they were on another plane.
Anyway I never felt comfortable enough with
these persons to try to keep any kind of a
relationship going.

[arewethereyet]

34. one of my very best friends is one of those people

You don't really need to respond at all, its not actually for your benefit. The real intent is a bit of self realization on their part of another bit of Grace that they've spotted and are acknowledging.

One of the reasons he is a good friend is that he always remembers me and offers help when I'm in trouble and celebration when things are good.

I hate to see anyone miss a chance to have a good friend.

Why not accept them as they are. If they are anything like my friend they are going to accept you as you are.

Now if they whip out a Bible and thump you on the head then it OVER !

[Walt Starr]

70. My response is in kind

"Praise Loki"

"Hail Satan" will usually stop them dead in their tracks after they come out with a "Praise Jesus".

When I hear an "Amen" I respond with "So Mote it BE!"

[Solomon]

269. The thing I hate the most is when they pity you

because you don't believe the same things they believe in. Another one is "he must be living wrong" when something bad happens to someone.

[izzie]

23. Yes because the bible tells us to, as Arabs are told in there religion.

I do hope we have grown some what smarter as the religion gets older and as we get older.

[Deja Q]

25. They all are

They all say "Believe in Me, your God, or I _________" where _______ = "shalleth turneth you into a pillar of salt" or "smite your firstborn male" or "have your pet dog eat your testicles", et cetera.

They think that THEIR religion is correct and all the others were created for worshipping false idols (that's another no-no according to all religions.)

Heck, all religions are similar in these ways, yet so different... maybe they're all nuts.

[Apollo]

46. this is just silly

No they don't all say that. As a matter of fact, I've never heard anyone say that. The reason Christians feel they have the only truth is because we follow Christ and He TOLD us this is true. We believe that He ALWAYS told the truth so if He told us this, then it MUST be true. You see where I'm going? If we believe that there are other ways, then that makes Jesus either a liar or wrong. We cannot accept that He was either of those so what He said MUST be true. Its not about dominating or forcing our beliefs. Its about sharing the truth as WE believe as a means of HELPING those who don't have this truth. Earlier someone said that we should offer this belief but leave the conversion to the Holy Spirit. I agree with this. Its not MY job, as a Christian, to convert you. Its MY job to put the info out there for YOU to make YOUR own decision. Its MY job to help you and guide you SHOULD YOU DECIDE to pursue it.

Another mention was made about those who say "praise God" and "Thank you Jesus". This is not some form of psychobabble or brainwashing. Someone hit it correctly when they said that this is the believers way of giving The Lord proper credit and recognition when they see something that they feel is good news from God. It should not put you off, and you should not let it make you feel uncomfortable. Just continue on the way you normally do, they won't mind.

[Leftist78]

48. You assume a couple of things

first you say "Its not about dominating or forcing our beliefs. Its about sharing the truth as WE believe as a means of HELPING those who don't have this truth.", but what you don't seem to understand is that many of us don't want to hear you're beliefs about what is or is not true.

Put yourself in my shoes for a minute. would you not be bothered if I, as an atheist, started leaving tapes of sermons filled with my "good news" on your car in the parking lot of the grocery store. Or if you were constantly being told this "good news" from well-meaning atheists who just thought they were doing you a favor.

Or if the Atheist evangelical movement :silly: started placing stone markers in Judicial loudly proclaiming "THERE IS NO GOD". Or if we started printing "No God We Trust" on the money.

At first none of this may bother you, but give it a while. Eventually you'll get tired of the odd stares you get from unbelieving atheists when they hear that you believe in God. They'll look at you as though you just walked out of a space ship, and ask stupid questions like "How can you possibly believe in God?".

You'll be bothered by politicians pandering to the atheist vote. You'll soon be sickened by their false lack of piety, and you'll start to see the atheist agenda as something that must be stopped, because of it's intolerance. After all, all you want to do is worship your god in peace, but these atheists keep insisting that their way is the only correct one and your beliefs are just a fairy tale. You don't want to change the atheists, you just don't want to be bothered anymore, and you're tired of being a second class citizen.

If you were in those shoes you might understand why the idea of hearing your "good news" turns some of our stomachs. The problem is, I've heard it all before, and it's not for me. Why is it that your beliefs compel you to tell me about it? Why can't you allow me to believe whatever I want without hearing your "good news". It's not that you're forcing your beliefs, the problem is that you feel the need to tell people about it when they're not asking.

[Blue Gardener]

53. Well Said

I like the way you think! What I really hate is that the people who try to convert me think I haven't already thought all this through, and they need to enlighten me. I think I have enough intelligence to come to my own conclusions on what I choose to believe, and am offended by those who think I don't.

[Apollo]

you make very good points

That was well put. I can understand that would get frustrating.

Here's the only thing I can think of to reply.

Lets say there's an atheist and a Christian. They're friends. Lets also say the atheist has it right and there is no God. The christian spends his life telling people about a God that doesn't exist. What he says annoys the atheist but it doesn't hurt the atheist's eternity because there isn't one. When they die, they have the same fate. Nothingness. The only harm is the Christian wasted his time spreading a useless belief but in the end he was wrong.

Now lets say the Christian is right. When the Christian tells people of his belief, he's trying to save as many people as he can from an eternity away from God. If the atheist runs around saying there is no God, then he's hurting the chances of people who might WANT to know the truth. When they die, not only was the atheist hurt because of his belief but so was everyone he convinced of his false message.

The difference is, if the atheist is right, the Christian wasted a lot of time on a belief. If the Christian is right, the atheist's soul is in danger as well as people he influenced. I'd rather have wasted my time in the end.

[Leftist78]

178. That is of course if you believe

that atheists go to hell. Believe it or not, there are many who don't believe that. In the end, it's not really about being annoyed, it's about respecting one another's beliefs and their personal space.

I also don't believe that people should go around preaching to people about their religious beliefs just on the outside chance that there might be someone who wants to know. It seems to me that if a person want's to know They'll simply ask. If they do, by all means preach away, but if they didn't ask, then it's awfully presumptuous to assume that it's something they should hear.

As an atheist, I don't go around telling people what they should or should not believe, but I don't buy your argument that I'd be hurting people by convincing them to believe a false message. In fact, from my perspective Christians are the ones preaching the false message. I could argue that preaching Christianity is harmful based on my belief that anyone who spends their lives following that antiquated moral system and worshiping a god who does not exist is wasting his or her time, and that because of that converting people to Christianity is wrong.

I could argue that most Christians tend to become closed minded because they aren't allowed by their religion to explore other possibilities in the world. Because of this, I could argue that Christianity is actually a detriment to society, as it prevents people from exploring the realm of possibilities that exist outside of Christian dogma.

Honestly, I don't take it that far. I tend to take more of the live and let live approach, but the point is, from a Christian perspective, the idea of atheists attempting to convert other people can seem harmful, but from the atheist perspective the opposite seems true. This is why I believe that each person should search for their own path individually without being preached at from either side. If they wish to walk the Christian path, I believe they will find their way to it without all the evangelical stuff.

[Walt Starr]

179. I nominate your post as the best post on the thread

Well said!

[elfwitch]

181. I second that !

Atheist, Buddhist, Jew, Muslim, Wicca, what have you....

We all get pretty tired of being told we are going to hell.

We get pretty tired of that insincere look of pity you get when they finally understand that you don't care about their Jesus crap.

We get pretty tired of being molested by any person that thinks that being "born-again" is a good excuse for being an insufferable ass in the name of "The Lord".

We get tired of having your holidays shoved down our throats. (When the hell did someone decide that Christmas needed to start in October?)

If we "non-Christians" seem a little hypersensitive about this evangelical nonsense, it is because we are sick to death of being preached to. We are sick to death of people trying to convert us. We are sick to death of them trying to foist their invisible friend on us.

[Apollo]

189. as I said

I never mentioned anyone going to hell. As far as Christmas is concerned, "our" holiday was taken over by corporate America a long time ago. Its now a season to reap in loads of cash rather than honor the birth of Jesus. But are you telling me you don't have Christmas in your home?

[Walt Starr]

190. Blessed Yule

I guess you understand how the Pagans feel about holidays being taken over by others, huh.

Enjoy Eostar next spring, too.

[elfwitch]

193. No I Don't Have Christmas...

I AM JEWISH!!!

I can tell you that some times it gets really hard to explain to my two year old son why all the stores are plugging this Santa fellow.

Entire stores are decked from floor to ceiling with Xmas gear. I am lucky, REALLY LUCKY, if I find one shelf of Chanukah decorations.

But everywhere I go, I am reminded that I am not a Christian and that Judiasm isn't important because I can't buy a few fricken Chanukah candles without schlepping to a specialty store, and I live in a large city with a decent sized Jewish population.

So the next time Christains complain about being opressed, they can try to find a Menorah in December.

[ikojo]

251. Omayn v omayn elfwitch!!!

Try explaining to a Christian that Hanukkah is NOT the Jewish Christmas.

Someone had the gall to ask me if I had a Hanukkah bush! Oy vey!

[elfwitch]

263. I second your oy!

My plan is to highlight the coolness of Chanukkah for my son.
I'm already getting him psyched. He loves the candle part.
He is usually the most excited person in the house that we are lighting candles. He has become quite the little firebug where Shabbat is concerned.

[Leftist78]

183. Thanks! *nm*

[Apollo]

184. very good points

but for clarification, I didn't argue that atheists hurt people by convincing them of false messages. I, hypothetically mind you, said lets assume Christians have it right in THAT particular scenario. In THAT scenario, it would, in fact, be harmful.

As far as your perspective being that Christians are doing wrong by wasting time, that is what I was attempting to say in the first scenario. Then I added my own opinion that I'd rather waste the time than gamble my eternity.

I never mentioned hell btw. I don't see it as cavernous rooms filled with fire and screaming souls. I believe it to be more like a total absence of God and goodness.

[Leftist78]

188. but...

as a Christian I assume you believe that the Christians DO have it right so even though you gave me a hypothetical situation, it's based on what you really believe so I responded to it as such.

As far as hell, it doesn't sound like a nice place (state of being) either way. You did say that in your hypothetical situation that an atheists soul would be in "danger", I took that to mean in danger of going to hell.

[Apollo]

191. well.. yes

as a Christian, I do believe I have the right answer. Someone has to. It boils down to is there a God or isn't there? Atheists believe there is not, Christians/Jews/Muslims believe there is. Only one side can be right. Right? I mean sure we can all live in harmony and let each other believe what they want, but in the end there'll be only one truth. I, personally, believe in God and His son Jesus Christ. However, I don't feel myself "above" others who do not. I believe that I am saved (in the words of Roger Waters) "by the Grace of God Almighty" and NOT for anything I deserve. I cannot boast because I do not deserve to be saved therefor I do not.

[Walt Starr]

192. How about many gods?

Atheists only believe in one less god than your do.

And if Christianity is correct, which version of Christianity is the one with the answer? They can't all be right.

Is it the Catholics, the Mormons, the Baptists, the Episcopalians, the Seventh Day Adventists, the Jehovah's Witnesses, or who?

For that matter, what if the Asatru are the ones who are correct? Loki could be deceiving you right now when you should be paying homage to Odin and Thor.

If the Buddhists are correct, then none of this matters, really.

If the Satanists have the right answer, then they'll get the last laugh in the end.

Nobody has exclusive domain over the truth. In fact, I daresay not anybody has the answer, only the answer for themselves, which common courtesy dictates they should keep to themselves. Anything else just gets to be rude behavior.

[Apollo]

199. for the sake of this particular discussion

We've been discussing Atheists and Christians. So I boiled THIS topic into the simplest form. Is there or isn't there? On the one hand there are ALL the religions that believe in A God of some sort. On the other hand are those folk who do NOT believe in a God of some sort.

As for Christianity, there is One. Those that follow Christ are Christians. The Catholics, baptists, and those other "organized" religions mean nothing to me. I believe in God the Father, and His son Jesus. And I believe God's word- The Bible. Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists (which I believe are mormons) and Jehova's Witnesses are not Christians. They believe in God but after that, they lost me. As for Norse mythology, I loved all the gods when I was deep into Thor's comic books back in the day. Same with the Greek/Roman gods. They were fun to read about. Don't know much about Buddhists but the satanists have half the answer, in my opinion, they're just following the wrong guy. Like I said, when its all over there will be one truth.

[Walt Starr]

205. There's where you're wrong

If the atheists are the ones who are correct, you'll never know it...

[Apollo]

good point

If the atheists are right, I'll never know it. But that will be ok for me cause it will never cause me pain.

[Walt Starr]

209. But if the Mormons are correct

You'll definitely know it when you spend a portion of eternity in Mormon school.

If the Seventh Day Adventists (who are NOT Mormons but grew out of the same movement that produced the Jehovah's Witnesses) are right, you'll be burning in Hell right alongside my Pagan ass.

If the Catholics are right, you may or may not be burning in Hell, but I won't because I was baptised as a Catholic after my birth, so the worst that can happen to me is I'll be spending a long time in purgatory, at least under Catholic Dogma. If you end up in Purgatory, my Pagan ass will be doing less time than you because I was baptised as a Catholic.

[Apollo]

217. no we'll be hanging out together then

cause so was I. Grew up in the catholic faith, I just don't like it. Too much emphasis on Mary instead of Jesus. You're right, it was the Latter day saints that are mormons.

I've researched quite a lot and I've made my choice to have FAITH in Jesus. Only He fulfilled ALL of the prophesies of the coming messiah from the Old Testament. But this thread wasn't about preaching, it was about why Christians do what they do. Because they have to. Its what we're TOLD to do by Jesus Himself. Don't hold it against us, its our job.

[Walt Starr]

218. Mary is the reason I find Catholicism as the least offensive version

of Christianity.

I relate more to the feminine divine than the masculine.

[elfwitch]

195. Christian's God

Before you start lumping in Christians/Jews/Muslims you need to stop a second. Most of the Christians I have met in my life mean "Jesus" when they say GOD. It seems that a huge number of them skip the boss and worship the middle man. I'm not saying all of them. Just the ones I've come across. (The ones that get up in my face about their boy Jesus. A Jew, by the way )

I cannot speak for Muslims, because I really haven't done enough study to make any assertions on their behalf, but I can say that when Jews say God, they mean GOD. The big boss. The head cheese. The MFIC. Ain't no middle man for us.

So don't lump Christians/Jews/Muslims. We are cousins at best on a good day.

[Walt Starr]

197. According to Christian mythology

Jesus and YHWH are one and the same.

It's a stretch, I know, but that is the belief. The Triune Deity is a basic tenet of the Christian Creed, Gnostics excepted.

For my part, I can understand various aspects of a divine being. My own Goddess is represented as Maiden, Mother and Crone.

[elfwitch]

kinda with you on that...

In Judaism G-d has many names but is one being.
God is referred to as Adonai, Eloheinu and Ashem.
Each reference is meant to describe aspects of, for lack of a better description, God's personality.
There is a name that is used when referring to God in the capacity as creator of the universe (a nurturing creative parental role).
There is a name that is used when referring to God in the capacity as judge and punisher (a kicking on your butt for being a jerk role).
And there is one for just referring to God in a general sense.

It can get pretty confusing, but the main point is that the one God is in all things, the trees, the wind, the air, and the water. God is so large that it cannot be contained by one name or one thought.

It is why I get a little testy with the whole Jesus thing. God is too big to have ever have been a MAN. It is kind of silly to even try to label something that intangible and unimaginable. The best I can do is light my candles, eat my bread, drink my wine, and be thankful that the universe exists with me and the people I care for in it. Hopefully, whatever the truth is at the end, will be revealed. Even if it is nothing. All I can do is try to be a decent human being while I'm here and leave the place a better world than the one I found, because I can't count on what comes after (since nobody really knows and no one has ever come back to report on the AFTER).

[Apollo]

200. geez we're going to nitpick my every word now?

I was referring to the difference between NOT believing in a God and believing in a God. I couldn't make my point if I were to stop and distinguish between every possibility. Christians/Jews/Muslims ALL BELIEVE IN A GOD. Get it?

[Walt Starr]

202. Not all believe in only one god

I believe in a Goddess and a God. I can't break it down any more than that, being a human.

Hindus believe in many gods as well.

Atheists still only believe in one less god than you do.

[Apollo]

206. I have a headache

Can you not just take the gist of what I'm trying to say instead of just working on tripping me up every step? So I forgot to add the (s) after God. Forgive me.

[Walt Starr]

211. Sorry, but it isn't that easy

It does not just boil down to theists and atheists because the theists don't agree on anything. That's the point I'm making.

If you really want to hedge your bets, you have to accept all religions. That is antithetical to most religions, so you cannot hedge your bets.

And the worst part of it all, only one sect of the Christians can possibly be correct, so if you choose the wrong sect, you're as screwed as the rest of us.

[Apollo]

237. not interested in the different sects of Christianity

You are wrong about the Christian part. If you are a Christian and you believe in Christ, it doesn't matter which church you spent your time in. Catholics, Baptists, Protestants, or whatever else is out there, the whole crux of Christianity is to believe in Him. He said "For whosoever believeth in Me, he will have eternal life."

[Muddleoftheroad]

212. But it is still about belief

And they can't prove their belief any more than we can prove ours. We have faith that ours is correct. Their lack of faith says theirs is.

[Walt Starr]

214. Right, so proper etiquette would dictate

that we keep our beliefs about the supernatural and any alleged gods or afterlife to ourselves.

Doing otherwise is rude and offensive.

[Muddleoftheroad]

231. My God is not alleged

Yours might be, so feel free to keep him/her/them to yourself if you wish. I will praise mine from wherever I wish.

If that offends you, so be it.

[Walt Starr]

233. If your god is not alleged

then trot him out.

The only way any god can not be alleged is to provide evidence to support the existance of said god.

Do so, or your god remains only alleged as is the case with all other gods.

It seems we've had this argument before when I proved that all gods are myths by definition.

[Muddleoftheroad]

252. My God is everywhere

If you do not see him, then you choose not to.

And, again, you might prove YOUR gods are myths. My God is not.

[Walt Starr]

258. You seeing things is not evidence of existance

It's pretty simple. You are making the allegations. You are under the burden of proof.

[Muddleoftheroad]

266. No burden

No need. You are the one with doubts. I have none.

[Apollo]

234. as well you should

just as you have the right to do my friend.

[Leftist78]

198. Atheism

usually isn't so easily defined. It's really nothing more than the absence of religion and deity. To be fair, I can't say that there is absolutely nothing out there beyond our current understanding of the universe. If our species survives long enough, I believe there will be many discoveries that will force us to change our ways of thinking.

The only thing I am completely convinced of is that there is/are no Christian/Jewish/Muslim/Hindu god/gods. This makes me an Atheist by most people's standards, and I'm fine with that. Like you, I don't feel above anyone either, and I agree that in the end someone has to be right, but I don't think that's what's important.

To me what matters is right now and the legacy we leave for those who come after us, and for that reason, I believe tolerance should be a central goal of our society. We don't have to agree. That's the beauty of individualism, but we do have to live together, and sometimes that means one side will have to make accommodations for the other so that everyone's liberty is protected.

[Cheswick2.0]

289. I was wondering when you would be back

I am suprised you are using a new screen name.
In fact you do preach that people should think like you. You just did.

PS... the use of the term antiquated moral system isn't exactly neutral.

[LeahMira]

244. Isn't that...

Paschal's Wager?

The difference is, if the atheist is right, the Christian wasted a lot of time on a belief.

And since you only go around once, why waste time?

[dpibel]

264. 'Tis Indeed

And, as Walt Starr points out, the problem with Pascal's little roll o' the dice is this:

The layout on the cosmic craps table has more spots than christian and atheist. If you really want to cover your bets, you have to play all the propositions.

Tough job. What if you spend your whole life witnessing for Jesus, and when the dice stop bouncing, you find yourself reincarnated as a cockroach. Probly woulda been better to spend some time chanting the thousand names.

For that matter, if you feel like you're gambling on your eternal soul, why not go with the long-term winners--hinduism, say, or animism? Why take a flyer on some longshot upstart? Heck. The Jesus story's only been around for 2K years. Pick something with some legs.

[LifeDuringWartime]

215. bravo, bravo

"No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God. "

george h.w. bush

[BadFaith]

26. Religious Freedom = Freedom to Evangelize Without ANY Restraint

While we could spend an eternity discussing the "nature" of Christianity, the fact that it and religion as a whole is an abstract and varies depending upon practitioners negates the entire conversation. What I think the infered focus here are the sects of Christianity who put evangelism at the forefront of their religious practices. In the interest of full disclosure I am an irrelegious atheist (and there are religious atheists, Buddhists for instance), and though I believe my personal stance on these matters has little to no bearing on my analysis, I could be wrong.

That being said, it is my firm belief that much of if not all of the American anti-secular movement's caterwalling about secular government and all its supposed ills has to do with their belief in unrestrainable evangelism. That and (I'm trying my best not to be insulting) a general sense of laziness in the right-wing evangelical community.

For the first part, evangelism does fall under the category of a religious practice and, that being said, such a right should not be abridged. However there are instances where what may be termed evangelism can constitute outright harrassment (from my own experience, I had to change my phone number twice in order to avoid quite a few not-to-polite calls at around six in the morning informing me of my destiny as "Satan's bitch"). Just as well, the growing attitude of tolerance towards traditionally outcast groups such as homosexuals makes it extremely difficult for Evangelicals to promulgate their "Saving Gays" agenda, as such an agenda relies heavily on the social, political, and economic stigmas long associated with homosexuals to be effective.

As for my comment on laziness, the resources of the state, being neutral in religious matters, can not be used to give a stronger voice to any sect in these matters. The use of public monies and institutions to evangelize does not fall under the rubric of "religious freedom". Nor are such resources even required by any sect of any religion to promulate their particular creeds and practices, and most have successfully done so throughout American history through volunteerism and donations. They simply make meeting those ends MUCH easier and provide an advantage to one religious sect over all others.

[Walt Starr]

73. I CALL BULLSHIT!!!!!

Your freedom to evangelize ends at my property line. Cross that line and you get what you deserve.

[elfwitch]

180. I'm with you....

I've spent my entire life having so-called Christians violating my personal space when I've made it clear I have no interest in their sermon. Instead of taking the hint, that you don't want to be converted, they keep after you or worse, pity you loudly in front of others. "Poor thing is going stright to hell!"

I've lost friends because of it. They are relentless.

[Leftist78]

30. Obviously

there are some christians who are not evangelical-types, but most are. They believe they're right about the whole God thing and it's their job to spread it. In the gospels, Jesus supposedly tells them to do it.

Personally I find it to be one of the most repugnant features of the the religion. You can believe in the Christian god if you want. For that matter you can believe that the moss growing on my bonsai trees is god if you want to, the problem is when you start telling me I should believe it too. Once you start believe you're the only one that's right, it's not a big leap to believing everyone else is inferior because they don't agree with you.

That's the real problem with most christians. They've got all the right answers, and there's something wrong with you because you don't accept their answers.

[leftofthedial]

33. always have been

aggressive, coercive, violent

anything goes to convert new members of the cult.

[EV1Ltimm]

35. if atheists had the means...

i'm sure that there'd be groups that would aggresively recruit new atheists.

and as an atheist, i'm pretty confident that that would occur.

[Leftist78]

37. hmm....I'm not so sure

for one thing, we don't have any "holy charge" to spread the good word. I'm sure the anti-theists would use the bully pulpit if they had one, but most atheists that I know (myself included) are pretty content to live and let live.

[the_real_38]

38. At the end of Matthew it says:

...he's talking to the disciples after he's been resurrected (Matthew 28:18-20)

And Jesus came and said to them "All authority in heaven and on Earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the HOly Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

Seems to unequivocally mandate prosletyzing. I like that last line - I think Jesus was the greatest hippie of all time.

[dpibel]

39. It's right there in the instructions

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

It doesn't look very optional. Words from the big guy himself. I'm not sure how even a good cafeteria-style believer gets around that.

I was dredging this up from the dark recesses of my hard-rock fundy upbringing, and thinking, "Creature?? That can't be right." But there it is, big as life.

So I guess that they're mandated to tell everybody in the world and dogs, cats, horses, sheep, elephants, cockroaches. I mean, this could keep all of 'em busy for a long, long time.

[TreasonousBastard]

41. It can't be stopped...

of course, nor should it be. The preaching I mean, not taking over the government.

We are in large part spiritual beings, and many, if not most, of us are in some quest for some spiritual meaning in our lives. All religions, even the crackpot ones, should have free and open expression. This does not mean they should have the right to bludgeon or control us against our wills. It is our individual choice what messages we will or will not listen to.

I don't really fear a fundie theocracy here. We're too diverse, and even most American Christians wouldn't put up with a lot of the crap they'd try to impose. Roman Catholics would undoubtedly be the first to rebel, as they aren't in "the club" and would be excluded. Mainline Protestants wouldn't be too happy, either. Nor would those of us pretty far out of the mainline.

I'm one of those American Christians who takes the Sermon on the Mount a lot more seriously than the Ten Commandments. And I am far from alone.

I wouldn't want the Beatitudes to be enshrined in a courthouse any more that the Commandments, but I notice no one has tried yet. Could it be that the Beatitudes are far more Christian than those phony "Christians" are?

Nobody's put "Render unto Caesar..." in a courthouse, either.

[playahata1]

204. You write:

<<<I don't really fear a fundie theocracy here. We're too diverse, and even most American Christians wouldn't put up with a lot of the crap they'd try to impose. Roman Catholics would undoubtedly be the first to rebel, as they aren't in "the club" and would be excluded. Mainline Protestants wouldn't be too happy, either. Nor would those of us pretty far out of the mainline.>>>

If that is the case, WHY are the more mainline/liberal Christian groups NOT speaking out against the fundies? All you see and hear is f---ing Falwell and Robertson and Dobson and Reed and Bauer and all the other nutcases.

[TreasonousBastard]

297. Probably because...

they are better at tending their own flocks than getting on TV.

Within the individual churches there is a lot of talk about these TV types, and they are not trusted. Most churches are fairly small, and they have little time left over after paying the bills, counselling the parishioners, having weddings and funerals, running the local charities, and doing other "church work."

Most churches actually do believe in the absolute separation of church and state, as they have no interest in the state telling them what they can or can't do. There are also those pesky laws stopping them from politicking or they'll lose their nonprofit status. It still amazes me how some of the fundie churches get away with it, but they do.

It's a lot of work and expense setting up a separate organization that can talk politics. Friends Committee on National Legislation was set up as just such a lobbying organization, but there aren't too many others out there, and FCNL just doesn't have the resources, or interest, to get on TV and lambast the wingnuts.

And, they don't really have a unified, simple, message like the TV preachers do. What they believe can't be put into sound bites.

[PurityOfEssence]

42. Yes

And those who have the truth don't have to play by the same rules as the rest of us. That's precisely why there's a separation of church and state in this country: without it, there's a privileged group and all others are second-class citizens.

Of course it's a huge generalization, and there are many Christians who are private and retiring with their beliefs, but the idea of conversion is so deeply imbedded within the system that it is rarely in remission. It's so justified that the act of doing so is often not considered an intrusion, and if one rejects the approach, it's taken as a deliberate and unprovoked offense. Once again, this is why the more certain strains of belief are so dangerous: most prostelytizers would never tolerate the kind of invasiveness that they expect by right, and are offended at any lack of toleration of theirs.

[Cheswick2.0]

290. again with the idea that Christians should speak out against each other

! Why should I speak out against someone because their interpretation of Christs words are different than mine. How would that be any different than me being intolerant of Jews or Muslims? I fight in the political arena. I am not going to attack people for their religion. When someone tries to convince me their way is right, I am capable of saying I disagree. I assume you are capable of the same, so I wonder why it is you feel I must attack other Christians for you. I respect their freedom of religion just as I respect yours.

[Blue_Chill]

43. It's just human nature kicking in.

If you think you know the truth and others are confused, you naturally want to inform them. Look at the atheist I jump all over on DU, I realise that all they are doing is trying to share their version of "the truth".

Who is right? No one really knows. What we do know is that many of us think we have it figured out, or at least have a pretty good idea.

It's just human nature to try to share something that you find to be good.

[creativelcro]

44. Well, most religions that have LASTED FOR SO LONG

because they have the ability to spread. The ones that last are the ones that have principles and methods that strongly encourage conversion of new members. Otherwise they disappear. Not very different from species. It's a definition.

[BadFaith]

50. There is a difference....

Between the ability to spread and a mandate to do so. All religions, by nature of being creeds, have the ability to spread. But of the major world faiths few if any of them have as a central tenet the evangelistic credo that Christianity does.

And age has nothing to do with it. Hinduism, arguably the world's oldest major religion, is not in any way based on an evangelistic belief or methodology. Nor are Judaism, Buddhism, Taoism, Shintoism, Confucianism, etc. Were it not for Islam, Christianity would be singular in this regard.

[Apollo]

47. I disagree

right now, the Christian is losing more and more freedom to express themselves. As a Christian, I can say that I also respect all religions that practice peaceful philosophies. I don't believe they are correct but I have quite a lot of respect for them. Christians believe it is their duty to SHARE the truth of Jesus. Not to convert. It is not my job (I put this in another answer as well) to convert you, only to share what I believe is the truth so that You can make an informed decision on what YOU believe. The rest is between you and God. As far as it taking over the government you have nothing to worry about. We have a Christian president. That doesn't mean the government is being taken over. Just the opposite. Even WITH a Christian pres, the Christians are STILL losing rights as to freedom of religion. More and more, Christians are being told what they CANNOT do or say in public while other religions are free to do as they wish. So relax friend. Don't feel it as an attack but accept it in the nature in which it is given. A true Christian is not trying to force you. He's offering what help. If you're not interested, then thank him for his kindness and move on.

[undergroundpanther]

49. Ack

Get over yourselves christians!
Christians ARE NOT persecuted faith in this country.Individual christians might be asked to put a sock in it.Big deal,time to grow up.

As a pagan I was chased by christians with knives one day.I escaped by hiding up in a tree..
Until christians live like a pagan does they can't claim crap. until you are scapegoated by alot of people you can't be persecuted by them..Until everyone assumes you are evil,covertly influencing thier kids, than you might long for the days when you had it so good..I have had to remove my religious symbols many times,at the behest of christians in positions of authority.And of course I never got to wax sentimental in public over the glory of my godess Sekhmet and how she guides my life..
I have been beaten up by christians for being the devil girl in highschool.Why Because of my religion.Christian teachers looked the other way,why because of my religion.I have been threatenerd,hurt and blackballed I have had my stuff vandalized.
This is persecution.


Now if you are gay or transgender then you might have to live your life in danger. Every month at least one transgender person somewhere is killed by a rabid bigot just for being themself.
I am a non- christian transgender person and I have felt scared for my life,scorned and have faced real life persecution before..ironically it's mostly from christians.

Christians as far as I can see at least in America are upset and crying wolf because they know they are not the DOMINANT religion anymore like it was just a few years ago.And this pains them,to have to consider others needs ,beliefs and wishes,and be considerate of them.They don't like losing the social privleges that come with being the 1,000 pound gorrilla.They don't want to be just one religion among many religions.It hurts thier pride to lose the status.

So Christians will cry "persecution" if they no longer can just assume they can dominate a gathering of people with thier religion,or proseletize to people who don't want to hear another damn salesperson.Oh no they want to be THE dominant belief,They want a Christian nation,A christian world.They want thier religious hegemony dominating over all other faiths ,assumed to priveleges by everyone and they want thier will to control go unquestioned.

[BadFaith]

51. Oh give me a friggin' break....

According to a Gallup poll conducted a few years ago (1999, I believe), only 49% of Americans would vote for a well-qualified candidate for President who is an atheist. This same poll found that 59% would vote for a well-qualified candidate who is a homosexual. Jewish and Black canidates for the Presidency scored in the low 90s, just below women and Catholics.

Along with this, atheists have to constantly battle the stigmas that we are, simply put, evil. I've been called everything from a rapist to a devil-worshipper by people who, surprise surprise, only knew me for less than five minutes. Were there people with more polite methods of witnessing? Sure. Did I indulge them even if, for whatever reason, their advances made me a little uncomfortable? Yes, and I do find that a virtual stranger putting their hand on my shoulder or my *head* prior to witnessing, without first gaining my permission, is rude and improper. But I'm a nice, non-evil sort of guy, so I never make a big deal about it.

However, as with all abstract creeds and beliefs, religion and a person's perception of it has largely to do with the behavior of its practitioners. Torquemada felt that he was doing the Lord's work when he was sticking hot pokers up a heretic's rear-end, as does your friendly evangelist who just wants to see everyone get into Heaven. Just because you may not think the former was a *true* Christian is irrelevant, at least to me.

[Muddleoftheroad]

55. One of the reasons for that

Religion is the foundation for many people's moral choices. Moral choices are the foundation of who we are. Politicians who lack that grounding would naturally be suspect by those who do have that grounding.

Or, perhaps they simply encountered some of the atheist types who inhabit the threads here.

[Spentastic]

60. That's it then?

Religions are the arbiters of morality.

Therefore atheists have no morals!

Eureka! How could I have been so dumb.

Screw this for a laugh then I'm off to rape and murder some people.

I'd modify the statemment to read

Religion dictates many people's moral choices. This inflexible code makes for intolerant governance and persecution of differences. People would do well to be suspicious of those who define their morality by using ancient texts.

[Muddleoftheroad]

61. Not what I said

And you know it of course.

Religions are the arbiters of morality FOR MANY PEOPLE.

Therefore those same people naturally hold the morals of atheists suspect in some cases because their belief system is so different.

Ultimately, I have every right to vote as I wish and if morality is part of how I vote, that is my choice as well. If atheists wish to get non-atheists to vote for them, perhaps they should try some tolerance on their own and stop using such anti-religion statements as are prevalent here. (Maybe atheists elsewhere are much more tolerant, I can't say.)

I have seen atheist posters here proclaim they won't vote for people who are religious. Based on their comments alone, I would investigate heavily before I ever voted for a proclaimed atheist candidate.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

63. Well, for starters

We don't believe people are going to be tortured for all eternity for subscribing to a belief system different from ours. This puts us already at a distinct advantage over many religions/religious people.

[Muddleoftheroad]

64. I don't either

I believe people are dealt with in the after life based on their actions and choices.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

67. That's the Catholic (among others) way of thinking

That's why I said "many", not "all".

Hard-line evangelical christians think different. You may think quoting Jack Chick is a tad extreme, but every evengelical christian I've met tried to push their particular brand of religion on me based on "no matter how much good you do, if you do not believe our dogma you are toast". I assure you from personal experience they ARE like that.

[Muddleoftheroad]

68. Again, they are free to think that

I don't. Many Christians do not.

[Solomon]

272. Why do you presume that athiests don't have morals?

I'm not an atheist but I assume they have the same morals that I have. Namely "do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

[Muddleoftheroad]

275. Why do you assume that?

And I never said atheists don't have morals. I said, "Religion is the foundation for many people's moral choices. Moral choices are the foundation of who we are. Politicians who lack that grounding would naturally be suspect by those who do have that grounding."

I don't assume different people think the same.

[Solomon]

277. The substance of your statements seemed to imply that

if a person did not believe in religion then his morals would be different than a person who does. That somehow, his morals were suspectm because he's an atheist.

Sorry if you didn't mean that, but that's what it looks like.

[Muddleoftheroad]

279. Not what I said

But it is natural for people with different moral foundations to suspect the foundations of one another. Since most of the U.S. is religious, someone with another moral foundation would have to explain themselves more clearly.

[Blue_Chill]

88. encountered some of the atheist types who inhabit the threads here

haha! :D

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

103. That gave me a chuckle too.

No prejudice here, no sirre, no way. Some of my best friends are black jews gay atheists.

Quick quiz: which minority group was explicitly declared "not citizens and not patriots" by a sitting US president in late 20th century? And how much flak did that president get for that, compared to politicians who, for example, spew prejudice toward gays (another despicable lot of politicians, by the way)?

[Walt Starr]

106. The answer is...

Atheists

President who said it was George H. W. Bush.

He got exactly zero flak for the comment too.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

115. DINGDINGDINGDINGDING!!!

Mr. Walt Starr gets the prize: :yourock:

Link, link, link...

I wish some reporter would ask Dubya, "Do you agree with what your Dad said about atheist?"

Correction: He wasn't prez yet, it was 1987 and he was campaigning.

[Blue_Chill]

123. Atheists are at least what 15% of the US?

And you failed to defend yourselves? pffft. You'll get no sympathy from me.

[Blue_Chill]

117. Perhaps it's because atheists refuse to organize?

I'm sorry to tell you this but when a politician makes fun of hispanics, black groups don't spearhead the attack against him. Hispanics do.

The President go tno flak for it becaus the Atheists failed to defend themselves. Don't whine at me for not jumping in the fight for you, I'm Catholic champ in case you haven't noticed we haven't exactly been having a easy time of it lately ourselves.

[Walt Starr]

124. The atheists tried to mount a counter attack

They were attacked even worse byt the so-called "Christians".

See, atheists are the only minority it is okay to deride and put down any more.

And I've never met a Christin IRL who didn't take a joyful glee in putting down atheists. That's why I stand up for them.

[Blue_Chill]

129. Atheist groups will gain power when they face more discrimination

just like every other group has been forced to do. Sorry but compared to the shit other groups have gone thru inclduing myself I just don't feel sorry for them.

How many times do atheists get arrested while walking back from soccer practice? How many child molester jokes do they get hurled at them all day long on every TV channel?

pffft.

[Apollo]

135. well you have now

I don't find it joyful or gleeful.

[Walt Starr]

139. I've never met you, IRL

nor is it likely I will ever meet you, IRL.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

136. You mean this one? BLUE CHILL READ THIS!

http://bennyhills.fortunecity.com/hardy/203/nonbeliever/page51.html

Chilly (pun intended), ain't it?

[elfwitch]

187. I stand up for all opressed minorities....

It is my honor to chime in on behalf of anyone who is opressed for their beliefs, sexual orientation, skin color, you name it.

I figure if we, the opressed minorities, all stick together we can beat those who screw with us.

If every black, Jew, gay, handicapped person, woman, etc. all got together and made one big "We are tired of being screwed with" party, "THE MAN" wouldn't stand a chance.

[Spentastic]

125. Congrats

I'm sure there's a saying that had the words

"because I wasn't a Jew" in it.

History has lessons.

[Blue_Chill]

128. History has lessons. Yes it does!

Lesson number one - Organize and fight back.

Hispanics learned this a long time ago, and we don't complain when other groups don't fight our fight for us.

[Spentastic]

137. Fucking hell

You also fight when the rights of others are violated or you get fucked one by one.

Or are you just selfish?

[Blue_Chill]

157. I don't fight for those that hurl insults at me and call me names

I know that most Atheists aren't like that but I can't get behind a group who's members generally attack me.

If I saw any real discrimination I would oppose it, but I won't toss my self in the line of fire because some GOP bastard that said something mean to about atheists that is no worse then what atheist say about me.

[tkulesa]

213. You mean like you?

You are often one of the first to hurl insults and call names.

Pot, meet kettle.

[Blue_Chill]

236. Show me

where was I first to call names. Keep in mind that I have a history of these debates with many DUers.

Why don't you try to stay on topic or stick to what you know eh? I'm not the one demanding help from those I attack all day.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

126. http://www.strbrasil.com/

And in the USA, http://www.infidels.org/

Not much but it's a start.

By the way, I'm neither black nor gay nor Muslim nor Jewish and nevertheless I bitch a lot when I see injustice against any of these groups.

[Blue_Chill]

131. nevertheless I bitch a lot

You may help a little but the groups themselves have to lead the fight. It's always been that way.

[Muddleoftheroad]

132. Some of the atheist types here

Go out of their way to be abusive even when discussing the most tangental religious issue. Since you have apparently not been on the receiving end of that, then you might want to give those of us who have some slack.

[tkulesa]

219. Some of the Atheist types?

Actually, it seems to me that any time someone dares to post anything about christianity that isn't loaded down with disclaimers, limitations, and exceptions gets attacked as anti-religion and anti-spiritual.

This thread started out on a perfectly valid point, that preaching and converting is an inherent part of christianity as the vast majority of people, sects, cults and organizations practice it. This has turned into yet another opportunity for christians to complain that we don't all judge christianity according to a few exceptional, probably mytholical ideal examples.

Even some of the christians here
1. Keep insisting that christianity can only be judged on christianity's own terms.
2. Can only be judged by the good examples. The bad examples can't be considered because somehow they aren't representative of christianity.
3. Attack atheists.

Amazing.

[Leftist78]

257. bravo!

I get this impression from some of the christian posters also. Not all :) but some

[Blue_Chill]

260. Do you read your own posts?

Actually, it seems to me that any time someone dares to post anything about christianity that isn't loaded down with disclaimers, limitations, and exceptions gets attacked as anti-religion and anti-spiritual.


First off you can debate a topic without hurling insults. If you doubt christianity, think it's bunk, or hate fundies you can say that without insulting all of us. It's a sensative issue being that many of us are christians, you'd think liberals would understand that.

Here's how it works, you want to lob some insults and broad brush attacks then don't complain when they come back at you. Can't stand the heat.....

This thread started out on a perfectly valid point, that preaching and converting is an inherent part of christianity as the vast majority of people, sects, cults and organizations practice it. This has turned into yet another opportunity for christians to complain that we don't all judge christianity according to a few exceptional, probably mytholical ideal examples.

Why don't you take off your atheist can do no wrong glasses and look at the posts made by us mean ol' christians. We didn't make it ugly we RESPONDED. Don't like that? Too damn bad.

[edzontar]

223. No need to be insulting here, Muddle...

Speaking as an Atheist, I would say that the tone of the response up to this point has been for the most part respectful.

That is not always the case with religious debates, after all.

[Muddleoftheroad]

230. Some atheists here are great

Others do their best to use as many offensive terms or to paint religious people as negatively as possible. Having been on the receiving end of those attacks several times, my attitude toward atheists is, at best, caution.

[Leftist78]

253. I used to

feel the same way about christians, but I've learned to hold back judgment and wait to see what they have to say.

At the same time I try not to insult and to be diplomatic in my responses to Christians. I hope I've managed to do that in my posts in this thread. Religion is probably the most touchy topic out there, and IMO it has so much potential to divide that it has to be handled with care. A flame war over religion always does more harm than good.

[Apollo]

238. i agree Edzontar

I think it has stayed incredibly calm for the topic. I don't see a lot of attacks going on for any side of the debate.

[Blue_Chill]

93. Would you vote for a fundie?

If not then why expect fundies to vote for atheists?

The reality of it is, that in a two party system people are going to vote for whomever - A) Agrees with there views B) is most similar to themselves.

If you actually ran a atheist Dem against a GOP theist, I don't think the Dem would lose much if any of his/her base. However the way the question frames it "would you vote for a qualified atheist" it leaves the other canidates positions unmentiond. So given the choice between a Atheist and a Catholic that both supported the exact same things I would vote for a Catholic, and why the hell not? Saynig I shouldn't is like asking me to hte myself, all things equal I go with those most like myself.

[BadFaith]

245. Yes.

It is entirely concievable that I would vote for someone who described him/herself as a fundamentalist Christian, so long as I agree with the bulk of their policy platform and find within them the requisite itelligence and leadership qualities. Religion doesn't ever enter into the question for me after someone says "I thik the seperation of Church and State is a good idea." And yes, while the majority of Christian fundamentalists may not believe in such a concept, there are always exceptions.

And your implication of it being a loaded question is incorrect, as it doesn't need to take into account the political philosophy of any possible opposing candidate. Based on the Atheist affiliation ALONE, 51% of American voters WOULD NOT cast their ballot for the candidate.

[Nlighten1]

54. Check this out.

http://gnn.tv/cyclone/

Watch the movie. Towards the end you will have your answer. Xianity is the forward observer or the point man for capitalism. They move into a society and convert the people to pave way for Supply Side Jesus.

[Walt Starr]

76. That's a load of bullshit

Christians in this nation are the ones taking away freedoms. Christians expect me to pay welfare money to churches in order to spread what I consider a vile and evil religion. They expect my tax dollars to go for spreading this vile and evil teaching.

Your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose.

You have absolutely no freedom to express your religious beliefs on my private property. Doing so will result in you being ridiculed. You have no right to expect my tax dollars to prop up your churches. In fact, the Constitution of the United States explicitly prohibits it, although every time this clause of the constitution is enforced, Christians scream, "You're taking away our freedoms!!" This was precisely the case in Alabama.

[Apollo]

81. not true

you wrote: The Constitution of the United States explicitly prohibits it... This was precisely the case in Alabama.

The ruling in Alabama was unconstitutional. The First Amendment states: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


The first line says it all. Congress shall make NO LAW respecting the establishment of religion, OR PROHIBITING the free exercise thereof...

Lets break that down. The monument of the 10 Commandments were not only religiously based but they are also HISTORICALLY based. Our laws, defended in our courts are derived from these principals. But this is irrelevant. The Congress shall make no law.. These big huge stones are not a law, they're a monument. The line doesn't say "Congress shall allow no monument of religion to exist, it says they cannot make a LAW to establish a religion. As far as establishing a religion goes, Christianity was established 1776 years before America earned its independance. Now lets see the second part of the sentence... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof... Ok Congress shall pass no law prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Well the monument was paid for by the guy who placed them. He wasn't charging anyone to look at them. But now the courts have set a precedant, thereby basically creating a law that prohibits the free exercise thereof. It was an unconstitutional ruling that unfortunately will not be overturned.

I agree that you should not be accosted on your own property when its unwanted. I'm sorry that you feel that Christians are intolerant. The intolerance seems to be coming from you, however.

[Walt Starr]

90. Bullshit again

The monument in Alabama established an offical state religion. Moore explictly stated that his purpose in erecting the monument was religious in nature, ergo, violation of the establishment clause.

The prohibition on Congress not establishing an official religion is extended to all levels of governemnt by virtue of the fourteenth amendment

[Solomon]

273. Walt is right on point on everything he said on this thread.

What a cockimamie analysis of the ten commandment monument issue. I can tell you as a lawyer that there's more praying going on in the courthouse than in the church. Removing a damn rock doesn't change that. Another example of christians trying to force their religion where it doesn't belong. It's the stupidest thing I've seen, this "controversy".

[Blue_Chill]

96. what I consider a vile and evil religion

Well thanks for making your bias known.

[Walt Starr]

104. It's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it

I consider Christianity vile and evil.

The entire premise that a human sacrifice is necessary to appease a god who admits to creating evil is vile and evil, in my opinion.

Ritual cannabalism is vile and evil, in my opinion.

Deific rape of virgin women is vile and evil, in my opinion.

Mass murdering deities are vile and evil, in my opinion.

A deity which requires absolute obedience in order to keep oneself from being tortured for eternity after death is a vile and evil deity, in my opinion.

Yes, I consider every basis of the Christian religion to be vile and evil on its face.

[Blue_Chill]

114. No one is asking you to change it

I was just thanking you for being so open with your bias. Oh and that last post of yours pretty much gave me a get out of jail free card if I ever go after naked circle dancers in the future.

[Walt Starr]

116. You bet!

Go after 'em all you want.

At least I'm open enough to admit that every god or goddess ever espoused to exist by humans are myths by definition.

[Blue_Chill]

118. Open enough? Maybe

But you have very little grasp of tone and implied meaning.

[Walt Starr]

119. I could give a shit

I tell it like I see it and don't pull any punches.

Proselytizers have been rude enough to me in the past. I'm one person who fights back and won't take the shit any more.

[Blue_Chill]

127. fights back and won't take the shit any more.

I feel the same way but you see I have to pull my punches because my people get banned while others are allowed to get away with murder.

[Walt Starr]

138. Bullshit

People get banned for violating the rules here, not over religious affiliation.

[Blue_Chill]

158. Bigotry is against the rules

But it's ok to as long as your target is christianity. Open your eyes man it's obvious. If I start a "why are all atheists mean bastards" thread I would be banned. If someone replaces "atheist" with "Christian" the thread stays open for half a day and they rarely even get a warning.

I understand why there is more grey area allowed but I don't have to like it or agree with it. I do however get ticked off when people think that having a little tact is asking too much.

[Walt Starr]

161. I gave up on tact on this subject long ago

Proselytizers were never tactful with me, so I refuse to be tactful with them.

If I could not freely speak my mind on this subject here, I would not be a member.

[Walt Starr]

148. BTW, blue, this is an example of cultural clashes

Happens every time an androcentric death cult meets up with a gynocentric sex cult.

;)

[Character Assassin]

102. Have you considered actually studying religion without blinders on?

Christians expect me to pay welfare money to churches in order to spread what I consider a vile and evil religion.

It ought to clear that chronic historical myopia you suffer under right up.

[Walt Starr]

108. Welfare for Churches

otherwise referred to as Bush's Faith Based Intiative

I've studied religions quite extensively.

When was the last time you picked up the Bhagavad Gita?

[Character Assassin]

133. Read it again last year, thanks.

I've studied religions quite extensively.

Either that's untrue, or you're quite aware of the role religion has had in furthering the progress of mankind as well as the downsides, thus making the statement that Christianity is 'vile and evil' patently absurd. It's been a mixed bag all the way around, and even the most miniscule amount of intellectual honesty would lead one to that conclusion.

Glad we could clear that up.

[Walt Starr]

140. My problem with Christianity is in the actual belief system

and it is those beliefs I consider vile and evil.

Read my posts on the subject.

And yes, I have studied religions quite extensively, which is why I consider Christianity vile and evil.

[Character Assassin]

144. Sorry, that's a cop-out.

My problem with Christianity is in the actual belief system and it is those beliefs I consider vile and evil.

That's like a chef coming out to a table after a meal has been consumed and asking how the food was.

"Oh, it was exquisite, except for the part we had to eat."

And yes, I have studied religions quite extensively, which is why I consider Christianity vile and evil.

Suffice it to say that I consider your study of the subject woefully inadequate.

[Walt Starr]

146. False analogies

I've said these before, but I guess you require me to repeat myself:

I find ritual cannabalism vile and evil. Ritual cannabalism is a part of Christian dogma.

I find human sacrifice to appease an angry god vile and evil. Human sacrifice is an integral part of Christian belief structures. Without human sacrifice, Christianity would not exist.

I find vengeful gods which commit mass murder to be vile and evil. YHWH committed an act of mass murder in the myths which form the basis Christianity.

I find the rape of young women by deities to be vile and evil. Without deific rape in the Christian mythos, there would have been no Christ.

Enough explanation yet?

[Character Assassin]

149. In addition to history, I'd suggest Rhetoric 101 to you as well.

I've said these before, but I guess you require me to repeat myself:

You were transparently wrong then, you remain so now.

I find ritual cannabalism vile and evil. Ritual cannabalism is a part of Christian dogma.

It's representative, Professor. There isn't actually flesh and/or blood up there near the altar to be consumed. Beyond that, you're speaking of dogma, and, in this case, that of Catholicism. It doesn't apply to all of Christianity.

I find human sacrifice to appease an angry god vile and evil. Human sacrifice is an integral part of Christian belief structures. Without human sacrifice, Christianity would not exist.

I see, like fundamentalist Christians, you have been dazzled by the deonation of the text and utterly missed the connotations.

I find vengeful gods which commit mass murder to be vile and evil. YHWH committed an act of mass murder in the myths which form the basis Christianity.

Yawn. Old Testament, and utterly irrelevant to the message of the New Testament. To believe otherwise is, again, to buy into the same prophetic crapola that the fundamentalists subscribe to.

I find the rape of young women by deities to be vile and evil. Without deific rape in the Christian mythos, there would have been no Christ.

Meaningless and hyperbolic.

A: Nothing in that particular myth indicates rape.
B: It is not necessary to believe in that to be a Christian.

Enough explanation yet?

More than enough, thanks.

[Walt Starr]

152. I'm glad

Enjoy your androcentric death cult and I will continue with my gynocentric sex cult.

[Character Assassin]

154. Yawn. Not being a Christian myself, I have no such cult to enjoy.

But by all means, please continue to enjoy the one you're in.

[Walt Starr]

163. Excuse me, I mistook you for a Chritsian

I'll try not to make that mistake again.

[tkulesa]

221. "Suffice it to say that I consider your study of the subject

woefully inade"

Or course you do. She disagrees with you. Anyone who disagrees with your opinion on religion and christianity is wrong. Right?

A whole lot of very well educated people (including one former Catholic nun I'm related to) have studied religion and agree that christianity, as practiced by most christians, is vile and evil. And many of them would further agree that inherent parts of christianity are vile and evil.

My opinion is that this is equally true of most, if not all religions, just like it is with most philosophies. I don't consider that a reason to discount them, but it certainly should be a big warning sign for all the people with rose colored glasses on.

[Character Assassin]

224. You seem to have missed the point.

Or course you do. She disagrees with you. Anyone who disagrees with your opinion on religion and christianity is wrong. Right?

Quite incorrect, but thanks for asking.

A whole lot of very well educated people (including one former Catholic nun I'm related to) have studied religion and agree that christianity, as practiced by most christians, is vile and evil.

Ah, but that's not what the poster who I responded to actually said, now is it?

And many of them would further agree that inherent parts of christianity are vile and evil.

See above.

My opinion is that this is equally true of most, if not all religions, just like it is with most philosophies. I don't consider that a reason to discount them, but it certainly should be a big warning sign for all the people with rose colored glasses on.

Did you actually bother to read what I wrote? I said it's a mixed bag, all the way around. IOW, there is both good and bad, but to insist that a religion, in and of itself, is 'vile and evil', flies in the face of reason, the historical record and common sense.

[tkulesa]

240. IF

If you use criteria that strict for judging everything and everyone then I have no disagreement with what you are saying. Your statement that no religion is vile and evil is true if you take a look at the good and bad from some distance away.

However, that seems a lot like saying that a mass murderer isn't evil because he often fed the homeless. And somehow I doubt you are as charitable with everyone as you are with your own religion.

Hell, I'm not that charitable with anyone or anything and I'm definitely more charitable than most. Looking at the balance of good and bad is fine and dandy. But look at the raw quantity of bad on it's own too.

And, yes, I did read what you wrote. I've read what a bit of what you wrote. Have you?

[Character Assassin]

247. It may seem like that, but it's not...

However, that seems a lot like saying that a mass murderer isn't evil because he often fed the homeless.

No, actually it's nothing like that. You are comparing the acts of an individual to the aggregate effect of a religion, something adhered to, in this case, by an almost immeasurable variety of sects and movements.

And somehow I doubt you are as charitable with everyone as you are with your own religion.

I subscribe to no particular religion. Perhaps you missed that bit.

[tkulesa]

248. No difference

There really isn't any difference between a person or a group in this regard. If members of the group are doing both good and bad stuff in the group's name, and if certain aspects of the group are encouraging both the good and the bad stuff, then the group is certainly responsible.

Sorry for assuming your religion. That seemed like a likely assumption to make given your posts. But it was still just an assumption.

[Character Assassin]

250. There most certainly is a difference.

One one hand, there is, for example, the group, Christianity.

One singular subset of that population is Albert Schweitzer. Another one is Torquemada.

Or, perhaps more accurately, there is Bishop Shelby Spong, the liberal Espiscopalian, and the lunatic Christian revolutionaries in Uganda. Is he somehow responsible for their atrocities? Or is the Pope, a Catholic, responsible for what Spong teaches?

If so, how do you figure?

[tkulesa]

220. That's not blinders, that's "Faith Based Initiative"

and last time I checked, the faith Based Initiative was still a major policy issue for the dominant political party in the US.

Let's be honest here, they aren't hoping that Mosques and Covens will be getting that money. They intend to funnel all of that money through christian churches.

[varun]

222. and the same churches who are getting the money..

...are going to be able to discriminate against US citizens simply because they are gay or lesbian.

:puke:

[mumon]

255. Can I share the Dharma with you?

I personally don't see any loss of Christian "freedom to express." Rather, I see an adjustment to a more even-handed approach that recognizes the wealth of religious diversity in this country.

That said, you say "A true Christian is not trying to force you. He's offering what help..."

Well, it might be a prideful act to think that help might at all be required.

As a Buddhist, I endeavor to try to help all beings get past the eternal omnipresent suffering, and try to help transmute greed, hatred and ignorance into wisdom, generosity and compassion.

I can't say you need my help, or "wisdom" or insight. Damned if I know whether you do or not. What I do know is that it's necessary to make real effort, to do some real work to in fact help. I don't have Dharma tracts to hand out (though you can learn all about Buddhism on the 'net). I don't have a magic formula for you to claim to believe to wipe away all your troubles. I might bring you some new ones in fact!

I do know this: my actions don't mean anything, but that's all I can offer you. You can say you have something more, but like alot of folks, I've heard that line. Better to be damned by a punishing gangster-god for being in the wrong religion, than to miss an opportunity to actually help where I can, with the abilities I have, as f*cked up as I am. At least if damned by such a god, I can help people in hell.

Alot of Americans opt for the easy, trite and superficial: they want a "Christian" nation (which is an oxymoron), they want their sins "wiped away," rather than using their sins for bettering the world, they want to be smug as they are simultaneously appalled and enthralled by the culture of sex and consumerism.

They get what they want, and want and want and want and want. And get and get and get. And so on to sublimate the desire, eradicate the guilt and on to consume and consume and consume. Vote Republican. Tax cuts. No abortions. Easy morality. Consume!

There's a better way, but it's a little more difficult. I lied, it's alot more difficult.

[Solomon]

271. Your belief that we have a christian president

wipes the rug right from under you. That's precisely why some of us are having problems with "christians". Sanctimonious hypocrits.

Christ didn't say "striketh them first less they should striketh you one day" did he?

[ima_sinnic]

56. Jesus said the ONLY way to "salvation" was through belief in him--

and this is true "because it says so in the Bible."

very convenient for Matthew to write it down that way--that really gave the disciples fiat to begin the 2,000-year crusade. The bible was written by disgruntled men who lived in caves. It was written so long ago and has been through so many translations--not to mention how much all languages have gradually changed over the last 2,000 years--how can anyone take any of it literally? or not see it as a legend?

Tom Robbins said it somewhere in one of his books: "Jesus was a greasy little Jew" whose words have been blown up into "The Word" of God "Himself"--as though God could even have a gender, a will, a written/spoken language, "jealousy," etc. etc.--all attributes of HUMANS.

Marx said it best: Religion is the opiate of the masses.

[CWebster]

57. I wouldn't call it

christianity.

[tkulesa]

243. Well, that's half the problem

Anything that makes christians look bad suddenly isn't christianity, even if it is done by self-professed christians who are members of christian organizations, in the name of christianity.

If truth be told, there don't seem to be very many christians, just people claiming to be, and I was always led to believe that christianity is one of the world's major religions.

[Cheswick2.0]

292. actually Christianity is the worlds leading religion

though Islam is the fastest growing.

What I am curious about though is your need to make christians look bad and frustration at what you seem to see as evasion tactics against your aggenda.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

59. One word: Hell.

Xians and Muslims (a large part of them anyway) believe everybody who doesn't convert to their religion will be savagely tortured for an infinite amount of time. Any otherwise sane person who believes this SHOULD try to convert as many people as possible.

You don't see many Buddhists knocking door-to-door insisting you go to their church, do you? That's because, according to THEIR beliefs, you're NOT damned forever by failing to subscribe to THEIR mythology before you die.

[BonjourUSA]

62. All the monotheisms are violent

Just because a simple mechanical effect.

If God has spoken to you... He couldn't have spoken with another for telling something different; A god can't be a liar ! The Truth is the Truth, your Truth of course and everyone must know and understand that.

Remember Roman, Greek, Egyptian antique people... They didn't have any troubles with their gods. They shared them each other, they visited the foreign temples together, they had gentle, violent, charming or awful gods, one for each daily question...
The troubles came with a very little sect which said to be online with an unique god, terrific but who promised the eternity. A condition, to suffer very much on the earth and to spread His Word... The unavoidable mess

[creativelcro]

72. ghosts are better left where they belong

that is in ghost world. When ghosts start taking hold of our world (like God says to do this and that to achieve eternal life), then the result can only be negative because different people have different ghosts. My ghosts tell me to behave in a certain way, the RIGHT way, and therefore everybody else must be wrong. It is simpler to try to convert them, otherwise I have to be faced every day with the possibility that my ghost may be wrong and I may not be that special after all...
Concretely, I would have a hard time voting for anybody who is really into any religion that has intolerance and a "conversion" component in it.

[greyl]

65. All salvationist religions are

to some degree.

Most everyone knows what "Are you saved?" means.

"Why do so many Christians believe it is their duty to convert others to their belief?"

Because they are of the mind that there is Only One Right Way to Live. Their view of human history only spans a few thousand years.

[Muddleoftheroad]

66. Let me ask you

Suppose you figured out a way to get your life in order and be happy and take care of others and ensure that your soul would be preserved as well. Wouldn't you want to share that information with others?

[Walt Starr]

69. You would first have to prove a soul even exists

before you can lay claim to a mthodology for salvation of that soul.

[Muddleoftheroad]

71. Nope, this is belief

If you believe this to be true, you will wish to share it with others.

[kitkatrose]

77. I don't think most people have a problem

with Christians sharing their religion if it's brought up. It's when people come up to you and start saying that this is the only right way to live, that you get problems. Most of the discussion around proselytizing, I think, revolves around the methods Christians use.

[Walt Starr]

78. Then you're blowing shit out of your mouth when you do so

And I call every shit blower on the shit they are blowing out of their mouths.

Proselytizing is rude obnoxious behavior, and I tell every proselytizer this during my ridiculing session.

It is evil, and I let them know about it. When I ridicule them and call their behavior rude, obnoxious, and evil, I give the bastards back some of what they are dishing out.

[Apollo]

83. what if...

I knew someone who was giving away huge amounts of cash to anyone who will simply come up and ask for it? Say I found the guy and he gave me more money than I could spend. I don't need anymore so I go out and tell people about him. Say I come to you and say, "Hey, have you gotten your free cash yet?". "I know this guy who just WANTS to give away more cash than you'll ever need. All you gotta do is go ask him for it."

Would that be rude obnoxious behavior? Would you ridicule me for that? Would it be evil?

Its the same principal. I know of a guy (Jesus) that WANTS to give out eternal peace in heaven and all you gotta do is go ask Him for it. Its that simple. That's the message. I'm not gonna say you can't do this and you can't do that. Or if you sin you'll go to hell. That's really old baptist talk. Christ didn't come down to save the elitists and the sanctimonious. He came to save the sinner (that's all of us). That doesn't mean you're not gonna sin anymore. It means you'll be forgiven if you do. All ya gotta do is ask.

Now that is what Christians believe. Not that we are better. We are NOT better. Nothing about US is special. I see nothing rude in sharing this simple truth. I won't knock on your door to tell you and I wont' follow you around to tell you. If I see you and feel you are down and out I might mention it because sometimes hope really can help.

Please forgive me for sounding like a preacher. This is meant to show that the violence and obnoxious behaviour everyone is talking about has NOTHING to do with the belief of true Christians. That's all I mean by it.

[Walt Starr]

86. Bullshit, you just want me to kiss Hank's ass

Money is a tangible object which can be demonstrated to exist.

Prove a soul exists then your analogy holds true. Until then, you're blowing shit out of your mouth.

Just go kiss Hank's ass by yourself. I'll eat my weiners with kraut and mustard, thankyouverymuch.

http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.mv

[Apollo]

97. did you find what I said abusive?

I can't prove a soul exists. I can't prove tomorrow exists. I can't really prove history exists. Can you? Do you only believe in what's tangible and can be demonstrated? My point of the last post was, if you found that abusive or obnoxious or evil, then you're looking for it to be. I would understand if I called you at home and told you about it. I would understand if I stopped you as you were leaving your driveway. Those I can see as obnoxious (I wouldn't call it evil. You may be a bit sensitive here). However, for example this thread, its about Christianity. I'm stating my belief in a thread ABOUT Christianity. Do you find the shit blowing out of my mouth abusive, obnoxious, or evil here? I'm not telling you to kiss anyone's ass am I? Nor am I calling your opinion shit out of your mouth. I'm trying to discuss this. That is all I'm doing. I'm not trying to "convert you" nor even sway you to Christianity. I'm just making a point as to what Christians are up to and why.

[Walt Starr]

109. I can demostrate that time exists

I cannot demonstrate a soul exists.

I call it evil because it is evil. It is evil to attempt putting somebody under emotional durress in order to convince them to kiss Hank's ass.

If you want to be Christian, fine, just don't expect me to join your vile and disgusting religion.

[Apollo]

156. that was funny

:silly: absolutely hilarious!

[Walt Starr]

162. Yep, like I said, I'll chop up my weiners in a big plateful of kraut

No way am I going to kiss Hank's ass. I'll kick the shit out of him first!

[mumon]

256. But you just spotlighted the issue I was bringing up above...

what if...

I knew someone who was giving away huge amounts of cash to anyone who will simply come up and ask for it?


Well, I'd say that it's better to give the cash away to other people.

Greed is pretty distractive and destructive.


WANTS to give out eternal peace in heaven ...

Same deal. The trick, I've found is to be comfortable with discomfort. Then eternal peace in heaven's a piece of cake.

[Muddleoftheroad]

85. Proslytizing

Much of what you seem to be doing right here fits your own definition.

[Walt Starr]

87. I only give back to those who dish it out

Obviously, proselytizers can dish it out, but they can't take it when they are called on the shit they blow out their piehole.

[Muddleoftheroad]

89. That which bothers you, pleases many

Your strident anti-religion opinion is by far in the minority.

[Walt Starr]

91. Come to my property spreading your bullshit and expect to be ridiculed

Attempt evil proselytizing to me in public and I will ridicule you in public as well.

If you exercise your rights to spew the shit out of your mouth, do not do so and expect to not have it returned in kind.

[varun]

100. What do you call people who give advise without being asked?

RUDE.


Even if you have found the "Right" path in your life, if you start advising me about how to live my life, I'll also say F**k Off.

On the other hand, if you share your story with me (and that means, listen to MY STORY) as well...then, we can be good friends.

[Apollo]

105. it always seems to be

about dishing it out and taking it. Why must all disagreements come to this particular analogy? The difference between what "they" are dishing out and what you want "them" to take is the abuse you fuse with it. I'm pretty sure these Christians who make you so miserable aren't attacking you with vulgar language and insults. They're probably not attacking your self esteem either. I don't think what you are doing is comparable to what they are doing. They are making an attempt to help you (even if you don't feel you need their help, its still a friendly gesture), you on the other hand are intending to insult them. See the difference?

[Walt Starr]

110. Prsoelytizing to me is ABUSIVE

If you can't see that, then we can never agree on this subject.

Just keep your religion to yourself and I'll do the same.

[Apollo]

130. fair enough

Like I said, Christ told us to put the message out. I've done that. What you do with it is entirely between you and God. However, I can agree to disagree with you and leave it at that.

[Blue_Chill]

134. I agree now go tell the atheists to shut up

being that they preach on these forums far more then any other group.

[tkulesa]

246. That's a Hoot!

Wonderful blinders you're wearing. Quite fashionable.

[Blue_Chill]

261. link?

Show me where christians are starting threads bitching about atheists and how much better and more enlightened we are.

You can't. You lose. bye.

[varun]

74. Hmmm...has ANYONE figured out what life's about?

Have you?

I have not. And as far as I know, no one else has either.

Everyone discovers life in their own way. Lets not push our views on others. Now, sharing your views with others is perfectly fine, but thats not what the evangelists are doing.

[0007]

268. This is a point that a few here don't understand......

Life is a lesson of being and finding self. There is no good, there is no bad, it just 'is and no more. Good and bad are in name only.

Life to some is a game of chance and junk science twisted around the way they want to believe. The doctrines of theology are meaningless. The old worn out doctrines are filled with many superstitions. The few that mold their character into their religious dogma are no better than fools. That narrow mindedness which they possess, is their only reason that anyone not like them are doomed. They have no argument.

Which is okay with me. I have much to learn but not by these persons that lay claim to Christianity in this manner. They don't appear to understand.

There is no hatred in my heart for these ignorant persons that lay claim that atheism is being tolerated by the moderators of this forum and the Christians are being persecuted.

[GreenPartyVoter]

79. That's the fundy view, and it comes from fear

The idea is that there is safety in numbers, so of course they rush around trying to convert any and every person they meet. Including other Christians if they are perceived to be "on the wrong path".

But there are plenty of Christians who don't thump people over the head with the Bible to convert them; they just live their lives as an example. If someone wants the serenity they have and ask them about their lifestyle, that's the time to "witness" to them.

(I have a page on my website with resources for Progressive and Liberal Christians, if you are interested.) :^)

[Walt Starr]

80. I view it as a lack of faith in what they are espousing

They seek reinforcement through peer acceptance.

[creativelcro]

95. for most people of the GWB type

converting other people is a need. You see, they got "converted" because they had character flaws and lacked the intellectual capacity to give some meaning to their lives... All they have is some really fragile and blind faith that CANNOT be challanged by anybody or it is in danger of collapsing. That's why they need to convert people, so everybody else believes too and does not question it.

[Walt Starr]

99. If somebody wants to be a Christian, fine

If somebody wnats me to be a Christian, they can suck ass.

[Muddleoftheroad]

107. Wow, how open minded of you

You said, "they got "converted" because they had character flaws and lacked the intellectual capacity to give some meaning to their lives."

What a load of crap. Many people have faith. Shocking isn't it? And those that have such faith want to share it because it is a good thing for them and they like sharing that feeling.

[Dob Bole]

82. It depends...

we had a poll before, and DU is much more white, suburban, and atheist than the general population.

But yes, Christians who enjoy being a Christian are supposed to invite others to join them in fellowship. It is a religion that mostly appeals to the poor, hence why it is more popular in poorer regions of the country. Since progressives are also supposed to be fighting for the poor, a lack of understanding of Christianity can be our downfall, as it has been in the recent past.

[spooky3]

84. There are very good reasons why etiquette frowns on

people initiating a discussion about religion with people who have not invited them to do so. Pushing one's views is even more rude. Unfortunately many evangelists do not seem to care about this.

[Walt Starr]

92. Kissing Hank's Ass makes just as much sense

This is what proselytizing is all about:

http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.mv

[poskonig]

94. If a cult wants to reach 'religion' status, it has to recruit.

The problem is that people are obsessed with 'belief' when many questions are dependent on evidence and other forms of warrant.

[creativelcro]

98. Some religions

have become cults in some of their implementations and distortions... If they demand shutting down rational thought and total faith in what some person has to say, i'd think that is a cult.

[poskonig]

101. I thought a cult was a religion

with fewer adherents.

Imagine if Christianity only had a dozen or so followers. It would look pretty bizarre, no?

[Walt Starr]

112. All religions are cults by definition

Just as all gods are myths by definition.

[Muddleoftheroad]

122. Nope not at all

Religions are cults when their founder is still alive. If they evolve past that point and continue on in the teachings then they become a religion.

[Walt Starr]

141. I CALL BULLSHIT!

Go to dictionary.com and look up cult. Definition number 2 would include EVERY ORGANIZED RELIGION IN THE WORLD!

cult ( P ) Pronunciation Key (klt)
n.

<snip>
2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
<snip>

[Muddleoftheroad]

142. You call that a lot

That doesn't make it right.

Talk to some theology folks and ask them, they will tell you the difference is the leader living or dead.

[Walt Starr]

143. I stand by the statement that all religions are cults by definition

I have also proven that statement to be accurate.

Theologians tend to redefine terms when they no longer support their belief structures.

[Muddleoftheroad]

145. You are hilarious

You include a rationalization almost instantly.

Sorry, religions are not cults. A few CULTS are cults. I am sure blm would agree that the Moonies meet that requirement. But flash forward to 200 years from now. Any Moonies then would not be a cult, but a religion.

[Walt Starr]

147. By definition, ALL RELIGIONS ARE CULTS!

Straight from the dictionary, a cult is a system or community of religious worship and ritual.

That fits the description for every religion in existance.

[Muddleoftheroad]

153. I call THAT bullshit

The first definition from dictionary.com:

A) A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
B) The followers of such a religion or sect.

Note the whole bit about an "vauthoritarian, charismatic leader."

[Walt Starr]

155. You are using the negative definition commonly used today

I use the much older definition which applies to all religions.

Go worship in your androcentric death cult and I'll worship in my gynocentric sex cult.

Either way, we are both engaging in cultish behavior while practicing within our respective cults.

All religions are cults by definition. No amount of posturing by you will change that undeniable and irrefutable fact.

[Muddleoftheroad]

164. And you are using a ridiculous debating tactic

That amounts to, "Everything Walt says is true no matter what else you read elsewhere."

I am, as you said, using the "definition commonly used today." Well, not sure about you, but I live today, so I use that definition.

My religion is not a cult by definition. Yours may be, since I don't know what or whom you worship.

[Walt Starr]

167. I use the definition that has been used the longest

All religions are cults.

The terms are synonymous. Don't believe me? go to thesaurus.com and look up either term. You will find the other in the list.

[Muddleoftheroad]

169. CURRENT use

Uses archaic definitions for anything leads you down a garden path to inaccuracy.

[Walt Starr]

170. Sorry, but words have multiple meanings even if you decide they don't

Until there is an arch. in front of the definition, it is still valid for our time.

Equating religions with the term cults is not an archaic usage. In fact, it is quite proper! It is still commonly used thorughout the world.

Again, look up either term on thesaurus.com. They are synonymous. Archaic definitions won't qualify for synonyms.

Using a single negative definition for anything leads you down a garden path to inaccuracy.

[Muddleoftheroad]

171. Current and common usage

Stands behind my reference, even you said so.

The term cult, as you WELL KNOW, is pejorative. But you continue to throw it out there in your hatred of religious people.

Some of us through your bullshit right back in your face.

[Walt Starr]

172. Common usage is usually wrong

For some time in the seventies, cult was never listed in the dictionary with a negative connotation.

We have a language that assigns more than one meaning to a word.

So go practice your cult and I'll practice mine.

We live in a nation that guarantees freedom of cults.

[Muddleoftheroad]

174. Yes, cults do have freedom

But the word, "cult" is still a pejorative and it is quite obvious you thrill in using it for precisely that reason.

[Walt Starr]

176. No, it is only perjorative in your mind

The definition allows a lot of leeway. Until those who write the dictionary alter it to be an archaic definition, religion and cult are synonymous terms.

[Muddleoftheroad]

182. Yeah, I've heard that before

Some people, even black men, like to use the word, "nigger" around me. I am told they don't mean it as a pejorative. I tell them they are full of shit.

[Walt Starr]

186. Apples and oranges

Seriously.

[Muddleoftheroad]

208. Offensive terms are all the same

Especially when you are on the receiving end of them.

[Walt Starr]

216. click

Such a simple solution if you find offense in properly utilized terminology.

[Muddleoftheroad]

227. Let me know when you properly use current terms

Lots of terms USED TO be popular. Now they are considered offensive because people have learned how much they bother others.

You have learned this as well, but continue to thrill in the excitement of offending others who dare to disagree with you.

[Walt Starr]

228. Using "cult" in place of "religion" is a proper usage of the terms

There are many cults in America. Every last religion in the country, including yours and mine, are all CULTS by the definition of the term.

Just because you don't like it and you put negative connotations on a word that is older than christianity itslef (look up the Greek cultos) doesn't mean it's a negative word.

Enjoy your cult, I know I enjoy mine!

[Muddleoftheroad]

232. You might belong to a cult

And that would not surprise me. I do not. I belong to a religion that traces its roots back 2,000 years. It is not a cult.

And actually, for the precise reason that I and millions of others DO NOT like the term, that makes it pejorative and a deliberate attack by a provocateur.

[Walt Starr]

235. you belong to a cult because all religions are cults by definition

I've proven that irrefutable fact with the definition.

End of story.

[Muddleoftheroad]

254. You have proven nothing

Only that you can endlessly repeat the same words much like a parrot. I have shown you another definition that you consider both more common and current, yet you refuse to acknowledge it.

Quite odd actually.

[Solomon]

274. Oh oh! Two thousand years? You need to study where your religion

comes from. There is no religion that is not founded upon some earlier version. In fact you might be surprised to learn that christianity is a warmed over pagan religion.

[Muddleoftheroad]

276. All religions share many things in common

And have no doubt borrowed or endorsed beliefs from one another. Christianity is a natural evolution of Judaism, which goes back a lot further.

But, since Christianity is founded on Christ, I'll stick to 2,000 years.

[Solomon]

278. "Christ " was around a lot longer than 2,000 years. What you mean to

say is "Jesus". I guess the religion would more appropriately be titled "Jesusanity". In fact, there were a least 16 known "christs" in the world.

[Muddleoftheroad]

280. And there are a lot of people name Jesus as well

So you can split hairs all day long if you like.

[Solomon]

284. I didn't split any hairs. You are trying to.

"Christ" is a title. Jesus is a name. "Christ" is not a person or personality. "Jesus" is. You are the one who limited yourself to 2,000 years. Not me. After what you know about history and the progress of humnakind, what makes you think the person "Jesus" will not assume the same position as Zeus, Appollo, Osiris, Isis, etc.?

Do you think the people who believed in those gods believed any less than you do in your "Jesus"?

[Muddleoftheroad]

298. Jesus Christ

Boy, your point makes me just want to shout that.

Again, your first point is an obvious distraction. You know what I meant. I know what I meant and everyone reading knew what I meant.

As for Jesus going the way of Zeus or Appollo, I doubt it. They were envisioned before the world was fully explored, before mass media (books, Internet, movies, DVDs, etc.) could ensure their message would be retained. To wipe out memories of Jesus, you will have to wipe out mankind.

And, as you might have noted earlier in this thread, I don't judge those who believe in other religions or gods.

[Cheswick2.0]

294. No he was only talked of before 2000 years ago

profits spoke of him long before he was born, that is true. Some of what they said was accurate and some was not. Yes and even the pagans had some basic understanding of what was to come. Thus your claim that Christianity is reinterpretion of other religions. You have it backwards, those earlier religions were less evolved attempts to understand what was to come.

PS... makes about as mush sense as your christian bashing nonsense.

[Walt Starr]

150. Shit, even the practices of all religions are cults!

Definition 3.:

The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.

Cult is the root form for culture.

It is within human nature to be cultish.

So you go practice your cult which I consider an androcentric death cult, and I'll practice my gynocentric sex cult.

And never the twain shall meet.

[edzontar]

267. Walt: Some advice.

You are not going to get anywhere with this exchange.

Obviously you are right about the origins of the word "Cult" and its usage is in fact, quite broad in the history of religions.

There is also the more modern and limited use of the word as a label for unpopular religious movements like Scientology, Moonies, etc.

But let me tell you, no matter what you say or do, you will never get out of this exchange over cult semantics.

It is a tar-baby, to reference the old tale.

The more you punch, the more stuck you get.

I cannot say more.

[Walt Starr]

270. It goes back to my philosophy of giving back what is thrown out

The simple truth of the matter is, those who throw around the word ina perjorative form are REALLY saying, "Look, that religion is illegitimate while mine is legitimate." It's an attempt to make one religion superior to another.

This is why I always use the term cult when referencing any religion. I choose not to mince words. I have also found that most people who take offense at the proper usage of the term are those who try to prop up the legitimacy of their own religion by putting other religions down.

When you come down to it, no cult is more legitimate than any other cult.

[edzontar]

299. I have no problem at all with your usage....

It is just that the exchange in question is fated, by definition, to go nowhere....a endlessly turning spoke, as it were....

[JPace]

113. I heard someone say recently that practicing Christians

deal in beliefs over facts. Facts are
discarded when they don't support their
beliefs.

While this may be fine for a private
citizen it is scary when the person
is the head of state and starts wars
based on a belief that God favors
this action and is on his side.

[pasadenaboy]

282. I'll change your statement a bit

"I heard someone say recently that practicing Jews deal in money at all costs. Other factors are discarded when money is involved"

Now, I know you didn't really say this, but I changed it around to show you how dangerous it is to make broad generalizations about groups of people based on heresay. Whenever someone tells you something negative about a group of people, remember that painting any group with a broad brush is almost always wrong.

[blm]

121. They didn't use to be...now the fundamentalists

have learned all the recruiting techniques from the moonies. They keep their new recruits busy and separated from the rest of their family until they are ready to draw their family members and friends and acquaintances into their web. They sit down and write long letters to them explaining their newfound devotion and why they want to bring others into it. They've been doing this for decades now. Brainwashing 101.

[dkamin]

151. I doubt anyone will read this

given the length of this thread, but I would point out what I view as a distinction between religion as guiding philosophy and religion as intellectual justification for certain behaviors. This becomes glaring when trying to reconcile Christianity with laissez faire capitalism, which is the essence of the Right Wing worldview. This reconciliation is only possible with a severe twisting of what Christianity stands for, which seems to coincide with evangelicism.

I.e. the persons who I believe are actually Christian, as in practicing Christian ideals, etc. tend to be passively recruiting others to their faith, whereas the persons I believe are anti-Christian or neo-Christian, i.e practicing this weird worldview that says homosexuality is a bigger issue than starvation, suffering, and war, are aggressive and loud about recruiting others to their faith.

[blm]

159. Great post...and right on the money.

The aggressive recruiting is politically motivated and nowhere near philosophical.

[Walt Starr]

165. It's the ones you consider true Christians that give the religion a

good name. And I'll be damned if I can find anything wrong with those types who try to convert via the example of the way they live. I don't agree with their beliefs, but they don't bother me so they get a HUGE thumbs up from me.

Unfortunately, it has been my observation that these people are the minority of those who call themselves Christian and I never get the opportunity to really know them. The closest I get are to people like Blue_Chill, and online relationships are not anything approaching real life relationships.

[Cheswick2.0]

295. oh come on Walt

<<And I'll be damned if I can find anything wrong with those types who try to convert via the example of the way they live. I don't agree with their beliefs, but they don't bother me so they get a HUGE thumbs up from me.
>>>

This is why you have spent this whole thread calling us adherents of an evil and vile religion?

[Walt Starr]

301. Yep, I consider it evil and vile

but so long as you don't bother me, thumbs up to you practicing it!

It's your choice, not mine.

[LittleApple81]

166. POWER, POWER, MORE POWER....THAT IS WHAT IT BOILS DOWN TO

If a church doesn't proselytize it will not have the chance to become a world power. Religions as many other issues in human life are finally reduced to a matter of POWER.

[Apollo]

168. well this certainly

doesn't fit Christianity since we believe that in the very near future, we're going to lose ALL power and freedom here on Earth for 7 years. Your statement is incorrect.

[LittleApple81]

173. The proselytizing churches believe that? So why do they still

collect money from the "faithful" and send their missionaries all over the place?

[Apollo]

185. its a very long story.

Its all in the book of revelations. But the main reason is to save as many as possible before the tribulation.

[Bridget Burke]

194. Just a question.....

If you're so "Christian", why do you post under the name of a PAGAN god?

[Walt Starr]

196. As a Pagan, I prefer Helios to Apollo

Helios is more representative of the less mysogenistic view of deities than Apollo.

[0007]

226. Mr. Walt Starr ...

I like your S-T-R-A-I-G-H-T-F-O-R-W-A-R-D-N-E-S-E
Straightforwardness

This word has 19 letters, and is one of the highest virtues man can poscess of moral excellence and righteousness, which I see very little from the likes of our main posters her.

I'm with ya Man!

[Apollo]

201. two reasons

One, in high school, I really loved reading about Greek Mythology. I enjoyed classical stories. Apollo was always my favorite character in the stories.

second, my last name is Creech. I always got a kick out of naming a son Apollo so he'd be Apollo Creech. Never happened so I use the name online instead. *shrugs*

[buddhamama]

203. according to the Bible it's a Christians duty to teach others about Christ

and save their souls.

There are Christians with different beliefs,the Christian Right tends to the literal interpretation of the Bible. To say "Christians" is wrong, because there the majority of Christians do not behave in the manner of the Christian Right. The majority of Christians are respectful of others beliefs, even if they think you'll burn in hell :-)

[Walt Starr]

207. I think you're wrong

I disagree 180 degrees out.

IMO, the MINORITY of Christians are respectful of others beliefs, even if they think you'll burn in hell :-)

At least, that's been my experience...

[Dob Bole]

249. How is telling somebody what you believe being disrespectful?

Granted, it can be done in a very disrespectful way, but otherwise, why is it any of DU's business?

[Walt Starr]

259. Unless you are asked, it is rude and obnoxious behavior

Plain and simple. If you're all fired up about being a Christian, fine, just don't try and convince me that it's the right thing for me to do. You'll get an ear full.

[edzontar]

225. Well, this thread started reasonably well...but declined

....Soon enough, into a circular round of name-calling.

Nothing more of interest here, move on now....this is done.

[Apollo]

229. I don't think so

It got rather heated in places but discussions on religion always do. I thought it was quite restrained in most parts and people all got to get their point across respectfully (in most cases of course). I'm impressed it lasted this long without people coming unglued.

[edzontar]

265. I didn't mean you, Mr. Apollo

My religious views, I am sure, are the total opposite of yours, but I found your exchanges with my other colleagues here to be civil and respectful.

I refer rather to some of the back and forths in the "lower" part of the thread (see immediately above).

I have been lured into exhcnages like the aforementioned in the past, and have no intention of getting rolled up in one again.

[undergroundpanther]

283. Mm

Anyone who tells me I will be tortured for ever and ever in a huge lake of fire for not*believing* their argument..is well advocating something that's emotionally extortive and abusive.

Saying a person will be tortured is threatening to a person's sense of survival.It doesen't matter if they are dead.The bible claims they will feel it regardless of death Forever.It's extorion to be forced to accept a "deal" and agree with the torturer that claims to be good or be tortured forever . It is fighting words.
If you changed a few words around, to take the blinders off,you will see how provoking threatening,crazy and ugly the christian god the vengeful jealous(self admitted) god behaves when he puts his beloved creations to eternal_torture_ for using their free will to stand against abuse and_torture_ and for refusing to call it just or_good_in the evil infested world he made,.because GOD says he can do anything so it MUST be rightious.

In this story,.EV is the evangelist,FG is freckle guy being proseletyzed to.


EV: Hey, dude do you want to hear a story..(EV puts his arm anround FG leading him to a park bench in a way that to get loose is awkward)

FG: Ok tell away,I got some time..(FG is uncomfortable but the guy just seems enthused,so ge goes along with him)

EV :Did you know all people who have freckles and snort like that will be tortured forever ? They will be unless you belive this special guy came here just for YOU to erase awayyy your freckles and teach you not to snort when you laugh so you could be a king at a BIG PARTY??

FG: ????? WTF ..unmm..What if I like my freckles just as they are?

EV:Noo you can't possibly love those freckles,you see your freckles are what makes you unhappy and makes your life go badly and makes everyone else suffer and catch freckles.

FG:Really? How? I haven't been hurt by having freckles,in fact I was born with a few..and I never saw anyone sprout freckles 'cause I was in the room.(laughs)

EV:Oh and that snorting, the special guy who erases all freckles no matter how many ,he HATES that snortiing it offends him.He tortures people who snort when they laugh.He can take away that too.
He says all you have to do to get rid of your freckles and annoying habits FORVER is to just take him up on his FREE GIFT that gets you into a _Big Party_ he's throwing on another planet And you can't be snorting like that there..It's so horrible..


FG: why can't I snort when I laugh? It isn't hurting YOU.Why not just get out of earshot?

EV Oh but it hurts special guy so much that you are not like him,snortless and freckleless..,see he's taking off all my freckles..

FG: umm I hate to break it to you,you are covered with'em.

EV I am human you see,every human made by special guy was born with these..freckles. But he can take them away,really!

FG: How? They aren't gone off you yet.

EV: well I am working on it I'm asking freckle guy to guide me in which concealer makeup is bst for my skin tone..Excuse me you asked How??? He will do it?i
If you would just stick your hand in this dish of ketchup
and I get this packet of mustard open (fumbling with packet in his teeth) and..you say the magic words...and recite after me..special guy takes you over.And he'll make you give up all that snorting, help you throwaway all pictures of people that might have freckles,give up laughing and give me a quarter of every paycheck...so you can be looking sharp and be all dolled up ready for his BIG PARTY.

You win a BIG PRIZE. An invisible ticket...to..

FG: What?when?

EV.After you are dead.

Oh...So what is this PRIZE?

EV:A personal V.I.P.invite to special guys own personal BIG PARTY for you of course!And you can be a king, royalty forever and get back all the people who didn't get rid of thier freckles and give up that annoying laughter that so upsets special guy.You can smash 'em.Than you can lay your crown on special guy's lap safe on his perfect planet see...And you can thank him every day of eternity for removing all those freckles you couldn't remove by yourself!

FG: what if I don't want the _BIG PRIZE_ or to go to a BIG PARTY and excuse me but I like the way I laugh and my freckles are my freinds..and what if when I die do I get to pick from different prizes? There might be a WHOLE LOT of PARTIES.You know that could happen too, you know it might because nobody has come back from the dead to tell us where the BEST party is. .

EV
Ohh special guy came back and told us about the _BIG PARTY_ and that everyone else not picked by special guy in his dad's secret lottery that he has already drawn up but isn't telling us about, will be tortured. He already knows who is picked.Special guys party is the ONLY party out there,because he wrote it here,in this notepad.And only picked people take his FREE GIFT,that he knew you would take before you take it.

FG: hey that looks like ballpoint ink.

EV Special guy says,if you aren't in the_ BIG PARTY_ he is throwing for FREE by the time you die,than you must suffer forever and ever and I KNOW the special guy has done the right thing because that's the kind of wonderful guy he is.And he says so in this old,old notepad see,it's absolutely true it's all there in ballpoint ink,written by someone long ago ,No denying it. Special guy is right because if you were dumb enough to reject a _FREE PARTY PASS_ from special guy himself,and give up the chance to be A ROYAL king,on his perfect planet in favor of eternal torture.I guess if you are that dumb to "choose it" you deserved torture all along than,it just prooves special guy is right..

FG: How is torturing someone forever and ever good or right? And how can turning down an invisible FREE PARTY PASS from special guy be justification of torture? And how can I choose anything he offers if he knows already If I will accept it or not? Is he a psychic mind reader?

EV : you cannot understand how the special guy thinks.He is beyond all freckle bearing people to comprehend he is so pure and snortless and he knows it all,see it's here in this notepad...

FG: I sure can't understand how torture is a goodthing, sir,when I didn't choose these freckles and "this special guy" put 'em on me,and I can't understand how snorting when you laugh,and turning dowen a FREE PARTY PASS from sopecial guy warrents eternal rape,beatings,buring starvation,ect. Hmmm..Special guy sounds like a sociopath nutcase to me.And I know wouldn't want to be at any _BIG PARTY_ with people who would torture me 'cause didn't like me as I am,when they made me this way,because of freckles and snort laughing.I can think of a billion wose things than that,and none of them desrve a pentalty like _ETERNAL TORTURE_
And come to think of it you look pretty crazy too ,you frecklefaced but in denial about it and ketchuppy fingers .Are you threatening me?

EV: ohh special guy lovess you he really does!!He wouldn't hurt you!
Just take the free pass,it can't hurt it's free it's a get out of torture free card, no matter what you do,or how many freckles you have when you die! Come on!Let me put this ketchup...

FG: He Loves me so much he'll torture me forver for not going to his BIG PARTY...If I skip the party he'll torture me for the freckles he put on my face to begin with ..
Unless I stick my hand in your dish of ketchup
and let you put mustard on my.. say some magic words...let special guy take over my life decisions and make my thoughts turn freckle free,somehow and if I and give up all snorting,when I laugh and throwaway all pictures of people that might have freckles,or be in the act of snorting ,and I give you and your freinds on behalf of special guy a quarter of every paycheck...I'll get into a _BIG PARTY_and be HAPPY for the REST of my DAYS..Hmm Looks like that party pass isn't free at all.(freckle guy thinks to himself this guy is crazy and dangerous and probably delusional)freckle guy gets up to walk away..looking nervously to see if there are any cops nearby..just in case this ketchuppy fingered nutty guy drags him away to meet his'leader'special guy at wherever this freckleless big party is..he ain't sure he wants to ever see dead or alive..

END



The bible rationalizes the same crazy abuse dynamics and the 'solution; is the same stockholm syndrome that echos throught our inane culture it's ungodly.
Evangelists and christians because they think they must obey and BELIVE in this book of words as absolute truth more than anything,else under threat of torture.. of course extorted people can't admit to themselves in front of a god that hears every thought,that the bible needs to be RE EDITED,to take out the Dictator's bias,left over from imperial rome and admit that many books written by early christians were deliberately excluded that are more ancient than the crap in King James propping up authoritarians making god look like an asshole but a good one so they say..Do christians fear they might offend thier all-loving god if they edited the abuse and hate put in there by emperors 'cause they fear they'd go to hell to be tortured forever at the hand of thier good god because they really think this is sound judgement.

Torture is evil,everyone but sociopaths aknowlege this is evil .So why don't christians remove this premise of hell or original sin,or exuses for abuse still in thier holy books? There is no excuse to rationalize torture forever in a sane mind. I don't care even if it's sanctioned and excused in some 2,000 year old scroll of mythopoetry pretending as if it was god speaking.Hell is abuse.God's supposed goodness and craziness doesen't make eternal torture not be torturous eternally for those who endure it over such petty bullshit as being gay or not believing.
Torture forever an ever is unspeakably horrific and unimaginably barbaric.If it is done in the name of love it's just even SICKER.

The bible christianss read today has been edited to shreds by self serving dictator emperors in rome.Doesen't matter if you are fundie or liberal,it's the same book same god excusing abuse.Thinking of this book as the ACTUAL WORDS of a very abusive insane god is dangerous when you apply it to others.Calling a divine torturer all loving is just crazy,torture is not love.. If christians can't figure out a book supporting torture is wrong,at it's core because alot of people have an inordinate attachment to for some ungodly reason It's still WRONG to threaten TORTURE to people forever for not agreeing with you or whom you claim to represent. It is hard to justify torture eternally,going on FOREVER for any crime one might do on the short life we have on earth,let alone for having gay lifestyles or different sexual preferances with consenting ADULTS.


Christianity at it's core is crazy,it's partly because of the edit job partly because of the believers.And this craziness has stood in the way of real life social ethical progress with it's ancient written threats and fear.If you include other books written closer to the time christ supposedly lived that were excluded by ceasar like the Nag Hammadi and Tripartate Tractate and Q ,gospel of thomas and other gnostic writings and you might find the whole belief system is set up is differently and does not let you off the hook morally..

[pasadenaboy]

281. I'll answer as a fairly "orthodox" christian

who is also a political liberal.

Christianity started out with one person at about 30 AD/CE. From that it became one of the world's dominant religions, originally as an ethnic/culturally based belief system, but with Paul and others moved from a sect of Judaism to a more culturally neutral (and adaptable) religious system.

Christiainity has always held the idea of conversion, that people at some point, either through their parents baptizing them and confirmation (Catholic, orthodox, anglican) or through adult baptism (most protestants) become "christians". Individuals or families make choices to accept the teachings of Christianity.

Why does Christianity feel the need to spread these teachings? There are two main answers that come to mind. A more traditional, conservative view would be the understanding that without repentance, God will not forgive you, and you will be seperated from him not just on earth, but in the afterlife for eternity. Catholics tend to place more of a belief on church membership and the sacraments as means of repentance, and sanctification, whereas protestants place more belief on "faith" in Jesus' death and resurrection.

A more liberal way to look at it, which I do, is that all other religions are true, but that Christianity is TRUE. I would say that other religious beliefs can be true, but not complete, and christianity is true and complete. So, I always tell people about my Christian beliefs if I get to know them well. Why? Because it is true and helpful to me. Do I think they need to do certain actions to be "saved"? I don't know. But what I do know is that living a Christian Life with devotion to the teachings of Jesus has given me a much richer life. So, I encourage others to explore it themselves, or at least explore a life that is more than just materialism. But, that's just me.

[Lefergus70]

285. Would you be as eager to hear a Catholic or a Muslem or a Jew

tell you about how their faiths have given them richer lives? My encounters with deeply-religious Christians is that they would not be interested in my deepest feelings if I expressed them, and I don't.

[pasadenaboy]

286. Sure,

I have convesations with all sorts of people, and have friends of all sorts of religious or non religious beliefs. That's why I chose to live in Southern California. If I didn't want that, I would move to Idaho.

[Cheswick2.0]

296. of course I would want to hear about their faith experience

I have had a lots of wonderful conversations with people of other faiths. It's all the same God after all.

[BonjourUSA]

288. Bingo !! 300 posts soon !

If you want your topic to get a great success just use some magic words.

All the words about religion(s) are excellent.