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Like it or not, Dean is going to be the nominee

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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 12:54 PM
Original message
Like it or not, Dean is going to be the nominee
It has become increasingly clear that Howard Dean is going to be the Democratic nominee for President. It is almost inevitable. He has earned it. One year ago he was a virtual unknown with few supporters, and little campaign cash. Now he has more volunteers, more campaign cash, and is leading in virtually every public opinion poll (particularly in the early primary and caucus states).

I must admit that early on I had my hopes pinned on John Kerry. Kerry is a decent man who had had a distinguished career in public service. But he has run a dreadful campaign. He started the year with excellent fund raising and and hopes of winning the coveted NH primary. A year later, he has fired his campaign manager, several campaign staffers have quit, he is considering mortgaging him home to compete with Dean’s fundraising prowess, and he is a distant second to Dean in NH polls.

Wesley Clark has also been a disappointment. He has an excellent resume, and would be a strong rival to Bush during a time of war. But despite a big splash in the media following his announcement, he has failed to catch fire. The dozens of Congressional endorsements promised have never materialized. Many activists who would have supported him have already decided on Dean. This late entry has caused Clark to not even try to compete in Iowa. Clark may very well be Dean’s running mate.

Senator John Edwards campaign was simply four or eight years too early. His only political experience is a yet to be finished term in the Senate. That lack of political experience, coupled with his youthful looks, made his candidacy a difficult sell. He managed to raise an impressive amount of money early in the campaign, but has failed to raise much since then from individuals who do not have a pecuniary interest in opposing tort reform. In his quest for the nomination, he has veered to the left politically, making reelection to his Senate seat difficult. He realizes this, and is not seeking reelection.

Congressman Dick Gephardt, like John Kerry, had every thing going for him. His position as Majority Leader and Minority Leader in the House of Representatives, as well as his 1988 presidential campaign, have given him high name identification. He has more supporters in Congress than any other candidate. And he has strong ties with organized labor. Despite these advantages, his campaign is struggling. He is barely leading Dean in Iowa, which he won in 1988. Gephardt has managed to get numerous union endorsements, but Dean has managed to get the backing of two powerful unions, making an AFL-CIO endorsement of him extremely unlikely.

Joe Lieberman probably had the highest name identification of any candidate one year ago. But he has had a hard time convincing Democrats to support him. He is slightly more conservative then most Democrats, which would be advantageous in a general election but is toxic in a Democratic primary. But that isn’t Lieberman’s biggest problem. He just doesn’t look or sound presidential. Lieberman, like Clark, is skipping Iowa.

Al Sharpton is not running really for President. His campaign is simply a ploy to overtake Jesse Jackson as the unofficial leader of Black America and perhaps gain some control of the Democratic party apparatus. His involvement in the Tawanna case make him unfit to hold public office. The voters of New York have rejected his as a candidate four times. The only reason that the DNC is acknowledging this buffoon as a legitimate candidate is the fear that he would cry racism if he were excluded from debates. His campaign is lagging in the polls; the only state where he is breaking double digits is South Carolina.

Carol Moseley Braun is another candidate who has not business running. People are just not buying the argument that they support her simple because she is an African American woman. She was such a failure as a Senator that the voters of Illinois replaced her with the moronic Peter Fitzgerald. At least Fitzgerald has the common sense, unlike Braun did, to know that he was incapable of being reelected, so he is stepping aside for the good of his party. Braun’s candidacy, like Sharpton’s has failed to raise money, attract a significant amount of volunteers, or rise beyond double digits in the polls.

Congressman Dennis Kucinich’s greatest claim to fame is bankrupting the city of Cleveland. This debacle led to the election of a Republican as Mayor of that Democratic city, not a small feat indeed. After spending a few years in the political wilderness, Kucinich returned to politics, being elected to the OH State Senate and later to Congress. He started as a pro-lifer, but his position has ‘evolved’ to strongly pro-choice in time for the presidential campaign. Kucinich led the fight in the House opposing the war in Iraq, but failed to convince enough Democrats to oppose it to in order to block the bill. Many of those who opposed the war have gravitated to Dean’s campaign, frustrating the Ohio Congressman. Dean has done a good job of developing a grassroots base, but has failed to use that base to rise in the polls or raise a significant amount of money.

Not only has Dean raised more money than any of his opponents, he also has far more cash on hand than any other candidate. He is the only candidate who is actually trying to win every single state.

This year’s primary season is the most front-loaded ever. This is not the kind of environment in which a come-from-behind victory is very likely. The nominee will likely be decided by February 7. And that person is Howard Dean. Get used to it.
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annxburns Donating Member (948 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. Oh, gee thanks ...
... should I even bother voting since it won't count?
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
108. You are welcome
And please do vote. Perhaps you are one of the lucky ones who lives in a state where your primary actually matters. Here in PA, the primary is in April, so it won't.
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Nashyra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #108
127. Wrong
Edited on Mon Dec-01-03 04:50 PM by Nashyra
There is nothing to say who for sure is going to be the nominee.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #127
194. There is plenty of evidence
He has far more money and volunteers, plus he is going to win New Hampshire, and perhaps Iowa. Even if Gepahrdt were to pull off a win in Iowa, he will not have the resources to compete in later states. Dean will have already dominated the airwaves there.
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terrya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
2. I understand your enthusiasm about Dean. But...
I'm a Howard Dean supporter, also.

But how about being a little more charitable towards the other candidates? We don't need this kind of stuff. The enemy is Bush. We need to be a united party. And gloating isn't going to accomplish that.

The Democratic candidates are all good people. All would be a better alternative to Bush.

I just happen to support Howard Dean.
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I would prefer to unseat Bush
but if your sure Dean will be the man, thats nice too.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. I agree.....
This "in-your-face" post won't help us get supporters from DU if Dean ends up being the nominee...so, ease up on that. Remember that nothing is golden yet. We still have a long way to go. The minute we start resting on our laurels, we're done. We still have to act as if we're the underdog in this primary race. Joe Trippi said it himself, "We've got to act as if we're twenty points behind."
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progressiverealist Donating Member (460 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #8
196. the original post sure makes me feel alienated...
Sometimes I wonder if many of the Dean Supporters are more interested in the primary than the general election.

I will vote for Dean, of course, if he wins the nomination, but until then I am a Clark supporter. What I am NOT looking forward to is helping to campaign for Dean against Bush and being more or less shunned by the long-time Deanies. And I think it will happen. Some (but by no means all) Dean supporters seem to be the types who will say... "you weren't with us from the beginning so to hell with you."
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. Well said! Many of Dean's supporters are

his worst enemies. They brag, they gloat, they condemn other Dems, they ignore Dean's faults, and, like Republicans, they shout down any criticism or questioning.
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Jerseycoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
28. Nice of you
I appreciate this kind and fair outlook. Some Dean supporters here were beginning to really sour me on Dean himself. I caught myself up on that, because it would be counterproductive and juvenile. However, it did start to happen, I confess. Even though I am for Clark, unlike him I am an irreligious person. Yet I found myself thinking again and again in the past week, "Pride goeth before a fall."

It's encouraging to hear from Dean supporters who do not exhibit the insulting arrogance we've been treated to at DU. At least since I've been here, which isn't long, I know. We're all going to have to pull together and hubris only creates enemies. It is plain foolish for any campaign.

Please nobody start flaming or whining about who did what to whom. Nobody cares. Let's just keep our heads down and do the work for our candidates.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
110. Al Sharpton is not a good person
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nuxvomica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #2
193. People like you may make me like Dean
I've been getting awfully tired of some of the candidate bashing and chest-thumping by some Dean supporters while they whine when Dean gets even mild criticism. I know people who won't come to DU anymore because of these "Deantown" types. Thanks for reminding me that all Dean supporters are not like that. If Dean were the nominee, I would love to be able to support him without my stomach wrenching. :thumbsup:
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
204. Sigh!!!!
You may be right....Dean looks like the nominee and I will vote for him but he will lose to Bush. I'd be surprised is he takes 5 states.
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. What's your goal?
While it may be unintentional or not, your post is offensive. Are you indicating people should just give up, stop fighting? Are you saying that it is pointless for them to support candidates other than Dean?

I like Dean and will be very happy to have him as the nominee, but I am first and foremost about the process. I eagerly encourage everyone to support their candidate as vehemently and vociferously as possible. That is an important part of the process. You shout about your candidate, I'll shout about mine, and in the end, one will emerge as the nominee. To tell people, before one single vote has been cast, that it is in the bag, is insulting to that process.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
43. I am just trying to prepare people for the coming reality
We obviously are not going to wait until August to rally aroung the man who will be the nominee. The date when that happens is rapidly approacing, and will arrive much sooner than most here are willing to admit.
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LuminousX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #43
114. I am certain
That once Dean or any candidate has garnered the correct amount of support, the proper linking of arms and realignment will occur. I don't think anyone needs to be told, especially in this crowd.

Meanwhile, the process still needs to be played out. Nominees are not selected by fiat.
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poskonig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. I wouldn't count Gephardt out.
While Kerry and Clark don't pose much of a threat, I see Gephardt doing some major damage if he can muscle a win in Iowa. The states in the first week of February are very friendly to him, and the free media exposure, plus becoming the establishment's anti-Dean candidate, would make the Gepmeister tough to defeat.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
52. He is going to have to win Iowa
That will not be easy. Dean has pretty big bank account right now, and will be pounding the heck out of Gephardt on Hawkeye state airwaves. Gephardt probably won't have the resources to respond.
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knight_of_the_star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #52
167. Here's an interesting twist
Will Dean be winning if Geb wins in Iowa and Clark or Kerry win New Hampshire then either Clark or Edwards win South Caorlina? Don't start gloating and declaring victory until the battle has been fought. We still have roughly 60 days to New Hampshire. A LOT can happen in that time.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #167
202. Gephardt may have some trouble in Iowa
Howard Dean doubles ad spending in Iowa
By LIZ SIDOTI
Associated Press

WASHINGTON - Democratic presidential hopeful Howard Dean is doubling his ad spending in Iowa - to at least $400,000 over 10 days - in an attempt to pull away from rival Dick Gephardt in the key early voting state.

Gephardt's campaign accused Dean of trying to "buy the Iowa caucuses" with the new 60-second biographical ad slated to start airing Monday throughout the state.

Dean's power play puts pressure on Gephardt because it is unclear whether the Missouri congressman can match or exceed the former Vermont governor's buy. Gephardt is slated to spend less than half of that - about $160,000 - during the same period.

Dean can spend as much as he wants in the Jan. 19 caucus state because he is not accepting public financing. Gephardt is taking the government money, so he must abide by state spending caps.

more: http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/politics/7368245.htm
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returnable Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
6. Dewey Defeats Truman!
:eyes:
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_NorCal_D_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
26. LOL
B-):thumbsup:
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
7. "Get used to it" isn't getting my vote. eom




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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
107. Not trying to get your vote right now
Just trying to soften the coming blow.
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #107
205. how are you gonna "soften the blow"
when bush wins in 2004? With this "Dean wins all" attitude then we are destined to lose in '04.

Dean may be the "jet-setter" in the primaries, but the real goal is in November '04 and Dean--as of now--cannot beat Bush and that seriously depresses the hell out of me.

Dean CANNOT win ANY of the south. That's a given right now. Clinton who lived in the south had a hard time and only carried a very few states.

Listening to Dean's quote on "let's stop talking about God, guns, and abortion," WILL NOT resonate well with the Christian fundies. They are already starting a campaign against him. I know--I have a brother-in-law who is a baptist right-winger. We can't even discuss politics because we end of in a huge fight.

As much as I would like to live in a surreal world, reality is: Dean won't beat Bush and this has alot of here in the south extremely worried.

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WhosNext Donating Member (315 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
151. lol
You were only going to vote for a Democrat if it were Kucinich?
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
9. maybe Dean will be the nominee
on the other hand, one of the others might be.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. would have to agree
find these prognosticating threads a tad premature in light of the fact that not a single primary vote has been cast. Primaries can be wild and wooly.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. The prognostication threads are made necessary by the fact that not a...
...single primary vote has been cast.

It's not unlike when Bush had Fox and NBC call the election for him on election night, and the way he pretended that he won for the first few weeks in December when nobody knew what was going to happen.

The strategy is to make people feel it's a foregone conclusion so that resistance is weakened.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. they come from multiple directions
and are starting to drive me nuts. As are some of the over the top diatribes that leave me rolling my eyes they are so one-sided and biased. Frankly I am glad I wasn't around anything like DU in 1992. There were some family divisions on the candidate of choice. Had there been nonstop over the top crap - I can only imagine that it would have dripped into our relations.

I also think that we would have given the Scaife Arkansas Project a great big head start.

I am getting fatigued by the posturing. It is often no longer about policies, positions, campaign strategies. And it often appears that some folks egos have become entwined with the posturing of their favorite candidate.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. It's hard to imagine a reason why the rules that apply to the rest of the
media wouldn't apply to DU.

More people read DU than many newspapers in medium-sized cities, I bet.

If only 100 people read DU, and there were rules on who could post, it might be different. But, thousands of people read DU, and the arguments made at DU find their way to cafeterias and water coolers and beyond.

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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #22
56. People have been voting
They have been voting with their wallets, with campaign contributions. And they have voted with thier time, volunteering for the candidate of their choice. Dean has garnered the most of those.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. Yeesh! That's not voting
"Voting with their wallets" is what we call "a figure of speech". IOW, they're not really "voting"

Dean has garnered the most of those.

Bush* has garnered more. Where's your argument now?
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. Dean has preformed better than any other Democratic candidate
Dean has shown that he is the candiate most capable of raising money and volunteers. This will be necessary to defeat Bush.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Thanks for ignoring your mistake while correcting it.
AT least you didn't persist in calling it "voting"
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #66
72. Those forms of political participation are just as important as voting
Just ask Bob Graham.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. Thanks for fixing your mistake, while claiming you were right
"political participation" does not equal "voting"

Just ask Bush*
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #73
82. If you can't raise money and attract volunteers, your campaign is toast
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:05 PM
Original message
Thanks for ignoring your mistake
but at least, you've gotten over your "voting" issues.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:32 PM
Original message
or ask Phil Gramm
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/2003-11-09-tax-fund-qanda_x.htm

Q: Can Dean's rivals compete if they stay in the system?

A: Dean's competitors say money is not the only measure of a candidate. If it were, "we would have had a President Phil Gramm and a President John Connally," Missouri Rep. Richard Gephardt said Sunday on CNN. The two Texas Republicans flamed out early in past races, despite Gramm's prodigious fundraising and Connally's personal wealth. Dean's rivals also say Democratic groups and the party itself will provide financial help if the nominee needs it.

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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
157. Dean has something that Gramm never had
More supporters than any of the other candidates.
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #157
216. He can't beat Bush*
I suggest you get used to THAT.
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wildwww2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #62
189. Bu$h garnered more in 2000. Al Gore still got half-a-million more votes.
If Bu$h had not been able to get his supreme court to garner the constitution and wipe their asses with it. We would have a real President and not this corporate whore that we have squatting in Al Gore`s White House. Voting only matters when the votes get counted. Bu$h can garner all the money he wants. But will that get enough people to the polls? Or just get it close enough that Uncles Scalia,Thomas,Kennedy,Rehnquist, and Aunt O`Connor can steal it for him again?
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #56
68. With all the publicity generated for Dean, you'd think
he would have most of the party by now, however most are with other candidates and are noticeably turned off by Dean. The others are just less well known in the public, or are smeared by the mediawhores and the Deanies who spread the smears.

Some candidates are better at fighting Republicans and some are better at fighting fellow Democrats.
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #9
75. That's why they have elections
n/t
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #75
85. Some candidate don't even make it to the election
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #85
86. Nonetheless
No such thing as a foregone conclusion.
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Closer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
10. I think you
are absolutely spot on.

And I'm most certain the ticket will be a Dean/Graham one.


I do take offense, however, at your referring to Sharpton as a buffoon. Not only is it disrespectful, but innaccurate. I, for one, am glad Sharpton has been in this race.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
64. Sharpton is unfit for office
http://www.wsws.org/news/1998/july1998/braw-j25.shtml

And this isn't exactly a right wing news source either.
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SEAburb Donating Member (985 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
11. Good, now you can take a nap under a tree
While the other candidates pass Dean.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
74. Love it. Great thought. eom
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
79. Not enough time for a nap!
This baby will be wrapped up by February 7.
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bread_and_roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
13. Last I heard
no vote had yet been cast. And last I heard, in a democracy, voters choose who the candidate will be. And IMO, in a healthy democracy there will be debate about who that candidate is. The fierce arguements among candidate supporters are evidence that some shred of democracy is alive and kicking, at least among the Democrats, who have not yet succumbed to the lock-step mentality of the Radical Right. And BTW, "get used to it" is rather condescending, don't you think? In thirty years of voting I havn't yet got used to the Democrats putting up the lesser of two evils, and I don't intend to start now.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. it's a very good primary campaign
as viewed on C-span. Plug for "Road to the White House" my favorite TV show, every Sunday night.

The trash talking stinks, though, adds nothing good to the process.
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_NorCal_D_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. Yes, this is known as the bandwagon effect.
Get used to it! We've already won! Might as well not even bother to vote!

Republicans use this often. :(
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Screaming Lord Byron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
14. Why did you bother posting this? What could you possibly hope to achieve?
You won't win Howard any converts with this. So why bother insulting fellow democrats?
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
105. Just trying to prepare people for the inevitable
A lot of people have a lot emotionally invested in a particular candidate. If is going to be a big shock to thier system when thier candidate loses.
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mbali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #105
175. You are way too good to us . . .
But we really don't need you to help prepare us for anything. Everyone here is full grown and more than capable of making decisions and dealing with the consequences if things don't go their way. And, unlike many Dean supporters, most DUers have been around the block a few times and know how this all works - it is unlikely they'll snatch up their marbles or go crying to mama if their candidate doesn't win. I can't say the same thing about many of the Dean folks I've seen on DU.

Perhaps you should focus your attention on preparing arrogant Deaniacs who are so caught up in the hype and excitement of their first real visit to the rodeo, they can't seem to fathom any outcome other than having their candidate swept to the nomination in a tidal wave of overwhelming support. Considering the inability of many of these folks to tolerate even simple criticisms of their candidate, I wonder what their reaction would be to a defeat?

In other words, spare us your "concern" and take care of your own backyard.
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #175
217. I couldn't have said it better.
Mr. Stubbs has a bit of growing up to do. Calling a nomination sewed up at this date is naive and childish. I'm guessing too young to know any better.
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_NorCal_D_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
15. I hate to disappoint you
but this race is far from over. Roughly 40% of primary voters are either undecided or are not interested yet.

http://www.pollingreport.com
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
16. No...Dean says otherwise
"This year’s primary season is the most front-loaded ever. This is not the kind of environment in which a come-from-behind victory is very likely. The nominee will likely be decided by February 7. And that person is Howard Dean. Get used to it."

Dean says nothing will be clear until March 2nd.

Listen to Howard, he knows best.
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:21 PM
Original message
While things might be "more clear" at that time
with likely departures from the field around that time... I don't think anything will be predetermined. Strong field, lots of reasons different candidates appeal to different constituents. Different states each have their own interesting constituent composition. I think it is going to be a wild and wooly primary season and that while things may start to take shape in early March - I seriously doubt that things will be over.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
17. I agree with you on your analysis but still will work my butt off for Dean
to win the nomination and the general election.

What Dean has done is give everyone a clinic in basic populist political leadership. He has built a movement, not just a campaign, for change. He just doesn't want to win the nomination and White House, he wants to be able to enact the changes this country needs to be better and fairer to EVERYONE.

All the other candidates can't see beyond their noses, and it shows in their campaign tactics. They want to be the nominee to challenge Bush, but Dean wants to "Win Back America" from corporate crooks so that we can devise public policy that makes sense for all Americans.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:14 PM
Response to Original message
18. Deception and the fools who fall for it. I will fight it every step of the
way before the whole Dem party is stuck relying on that deception which is as sturdy as a house of cards.

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Lefta Dissenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
19. I think you're counting your chickens before they vote,


and frankly, I'm tired of a politician (or his supporters) who tells me that something is predestined, so I'd better get used to it. We live in America, we get to vote, and sometimes we even get to have our votes counted!

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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
21. Dean's my guy. But this inevitability shtick sucks, no matter which way
it's aimed. :thumbsdown:
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tokenlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:20 PM
Response to Original message
23. Should I laugh??
Edited on Mon Dec-01-03 01:20 PM by tokenlib
Look, I'll support Dean if he gets the nomination. But no votes have been cast--most people still are not tuned in. The democratic establishment is not 100% behind Dean. The media is so good at 30 seconds of fame and stretching a story so far past reality--that if Dean were to lose New Hampshire or Iowa--momentum could swing quickly.

Honestly, Dean has money and grassroots--so you "may" be correct. But even labor is split on candidates--and the membership has been known to ignore the leadership. But it depends on turnout. And the primaries where independents can vote on short notice?

I think you're being a bit presumptuous.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
25. As a Democrat I resent that
As a Dean supporter who is ABB I see no need of arrogance. To state your opinion as though it were fact is arrogant.

I hope all will refrain from such nonsense.

Julie
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
27. Typical trash
Seeing how many Deanies have posted that Dean's victory is inevitable, I guess you can't be blamed for starting a thread with that idea.
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CMT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
29. while I agree Dean has made big strides towards the nomination
He doesn't have it yet and July is a long way away and anything can happen in politics.
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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
30. Yet another arrogant post full of disrespect for many of our candidates
Edited on Mon Dec-01-03 01:34 PM by democratreformed
and the system. Whatever would I do without people like you to tell me I have no choice?
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #30
97. Voters in may states will have no choice
Take my state, Pennsylvania, for instance. Our primary isn't until April. When was the last time that the nomination was still up for grabs that late? 1980 Carter vs. Kennedy?
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
31. The only thing that is increasingly clear is that the more it looks like
Dean's grip might be slipping (now, Clark routinely outpolls Dean on DU polls, and more and more people are discovering what Dean's policies are all about), the more we see posts that say "Dean's going to be the nominee, so deal."

I suspect that there might be an inverse relationship between reality and the frequency we see this kind of spin.
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
32. Kucinich and Sharpton
I don't want anyone's record or positions mischaracterized.

I think you're being unfair to Kucinich re the bankruptcy. There was more to it than that, and from what I understand he stood up to powerful interests in order to keep a publicly-owned electrical plant.

Sharpton may have that as part of his agenda, but I don't believe that's all there is to it. In fact, I'm sure it's not. I think he's added an important voice that otherwise wouldn't have been heard.

Eloriel
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jiacinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #32
53. Sharpton is a street thug and hustler
Even the late Carl Rowan didn't like him. Read "The Coming Race War--and you'll all you need to know about Sharpton and why that man is nothing but a filthy street hustler.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #53
191. "filthy"????
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #191
199. Sharpton has an "interesting" history
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #199
213. Yes, Al's made some bad choices but "street thug" and "filthy" is hardly a
fitting tag for someone who will likely be campaigning for Dean, Clark, or Kerry next summer.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #213
220. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #32
190. He was absolutely incorrect re: "bankruptcy"
Kucinich did NOT bankrupt Cleveland. This myth has been debunked about fifty skidillion times on DU, so why do you insist on repeating lies that you must know by now to be false?

The city of Cleveland was forced into DEFAULT because the bank that held its debt refused to extend its line of credit until Kucinich agreed to sell the city's municipal light company to a corporate power company that, incidentally, shared a number of board members with the bank. His courageousness was later recognized by the city of Cleveland for saving its citizens millions of dollars on electricity costs.

Incidentally, the company that DK refused to sell Muni Light to later went on to cause the massive blackout in the northeastern US last summer.

What's the difference between default and bankruptcy? If you miss one mortgage payment, and make it up after its due date, you have DEFAULTED. If you cannot pay your mortgage and have no way to do so in the future, you may declare BANKRUPTCY because you can't manage your debts.

In the eyes of the law and society, that's a MAJOR difference.

If you're going to attack a candidate, at least get your facts straight. You do your candidate and yourself a great disservice by not being accurate.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
34. Lemme tell you something, Freddie. Beware of...
Edited on Mon Dec-01-03 01:50 PM by Kahuna
candidates with early momentum. They RARELY if ever end up the nominee. Don't believe the hype.

Another thing. Bush may be successful in taking the economic issues off the table, leaving national security the issue du jour. Then what? Do you think that Dems are too stupid to figure it out? I don't think they are.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. What about candidates with constant momentum?
Dean's gone nowhere but up since he started running.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #36
46. Things change. As the primaries near...
voters do a serious reassessment. They will have to determine two things:

1. What the candidates have to offer.
2. Who is the best candidate to be Bush.

I contend that Dean will not be in the best position to deliver on either criteria.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #34
70. You are probably correct about the early momentum
And Kerry certainly lost his momentum. What a difference a year makes!
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
35. I believe you are correct. And he is Karl's choice too. n/t
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Patriot_Spear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #35
44. You know what Karl Rove thinks?
hmmmmmmmm... from the tone of your comments, maybe you do.
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PSU84 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
38. Dean has only one problem.
He can't possibly beat Bush.

So, if you don't mind - or even if you do - I'll keep working for a candidate who is better qualified to be President of the United States and who can win the 2004 election. That would be Wesley Clark.

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Patriot_Spear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. I can't help but laugh...
Edited on Mon Dec-01-03 01:59 PM by Patriot_Spear
Do you really think anyone who voted for Gore in the last election is going to vote for Bush* this time?

Bush* is going to have a real problem with little 'r' republican defecting in droves just to save their children and their jobs.

Dean will stomp Bush's* canday-ass and his girly wingnut supporters. You've heard of 'Reagan Democrats'? Well that's about to be renamed 'Dean republicans'.
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seaglass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #39
48. Actually I do think that people - moderates or Independents
who voted for Gore last time may vote for Bush or not at all; it will depend on who our candidate is. What evidence do you have that they will vote for Dean?
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Patriot_Spear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. LMAO- evidence? I give you Bush*
8 thousand wounded
400 dead
9 million unemployed
500 trillion in debt

Name ONE thing that is better since Bush* took office? The environment, national security, US foriegn policy, etc.

The worst thing for Bush* is his hijacking of the White House has confirmed EVERY bad prediction about him- every goddam one.
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seaglass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #54
59. What's so funny?
You haven't shown any evidence that all the previous Gore voters think like you.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #59
69. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
seaglass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. Ok, so you don't have any evidence, just personal anecdotes.
Why don't you stop laughing so much and try to answer the question - what evidence do you have that all previous Gore voters are going to vote for Dean?
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Patriot_Spear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #71
80. As if Bush's* disasterous presidency wasn't enough...
Back to reality- name ONE thing that has gotten BETTER under the Bush* occupation. Just ONE.
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seaglass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #80
90. Ok, I guess you give up.
I actually didn't say there was a single good thing about Bush's presidency, you've got me stumped on that one.

I am concerned about the candidate we nominate and whether that candidate can get all the Gore votes and then some as you so laughingly stated. I just don't see it as a done deal.
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Patriot_Spear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #90
93. LOL, Nice try- I gave you several figures regarding Bush*...
...pointing out the effects of Bush*s disasterous dictatorship.

And despite you're crying, those numbers are only going to get worse under Bush*.


===============================
THE DAILY MIS-LEAD http://daily.misleader.org/ctt.asp?u=1266435&l=10358
===============================
Bush Action on Fiscal Discipline Doesn't Follow Rhetoric

Congress will be returning to Washington against its own wishes to finish up the budget for fiscal year 2004, which officially started two months ago today. But even as President Bush has maintained that it's imperative to "continue this notion of reminding the investors and consumers alike that we're going to have fiscal discipline in Washington, D.C.," he's done little to promote it himself, with government spending increasing more than
27 percent in the previous two fiscal years. In fact, the investor class
he's reminding of fiscal discipline in Washington is warning that, "The U.S. budget is out of control," as asserted weeks ago by Wall Street investment firm Goldman Sachs & Co.

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seaglass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #93
99. You don't need to point them out to me, I'm not the one
who needs to be convinced to vote for a Dem, or Dean in particular. Don't you understand that this is more than "if you could only see this the way I see it?"

Let's just end it here, either you can't answer the question or you don't want to.
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Patriot_Spear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #99
106. You just don't get it- human nature leads voters away from Bush*...
For one thing- most people believe their view is the correct view- for Bush to GAIN votes would he would have convince those who voted against him that he has IMPROVED the nation somehow- there is no evidence for that. BUT there is ample evidence from the figures I quoted that he has HURT our national interest.

Remember- Bush* LOST the popular vote election. MIddle class republicans who lst money in the stock market (Enron, 401 K's, etc) and those who have lost Jobs will easily feel disaffected by Bush's* disasterous fiscal policies.

He is going to have an up hill battle for re-election.

Two just-released polls confirm that the recent good economic news hasn't helped Bush's standing with the public much.
November 24, 2003

The latest Ipsos/Cook Political Report poll has the right direction/wrong track question at 38 percent right direction/56 percent wrong track, exactly where this measure was in the last half of September and early October. Bush's overall approval rating in the Ipsos poll is at 50 percent, the lowest rating they've recorded for him since 9/11.

Even his approval rating on the economy has snapped back to net negative (46 percent approval/51 percent disapproval) after reaching the break-even point in early November. And, for the first time in this poll, the number who would "definitely vote to re-elect Bush as President" is identical with the number who would "definitely vote for someone else." (37 percent to 37 percent). (Another 25 percent say they would "consider voting for someone else.")

The latest Time/CNN poll has a different re-elect question, but also has Bush at a post-9/11 low. In this poll 47 percent say they would be very likely or somewhat likely to vote for him for re-election, compared to 48 percent who say they would be very or somewhat unlikely to vote for him. Significantly, more people say they would be very unlikely to vote for him (38 percent) than say they would be very likely to support him (32 percent).

This poll also shows how the public's personal bond with Bush is continuing to erode.

Just 44 percent now say he is a leader they can trust (down from 56 percent in March), compared to 54 percent who say they have some doubts and reservations.

Note that political independents have an even more jaundiced view: only 38 percent say they can trust him, while 61 percent have doubts.

In addition, by 48 percent to 39 percent, the public thinks Bush has been too partisan in office; by 53 percent to 43 percent, they think he has been too quick to interject his own moral and religious beliefs into politics; by 54 percent to 44 percent, they think he is out of touch with ordinary Americans; and by 58 percent to 37 percent, they think he has favored policies that benefit the rich at the expense of the middle class.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"The latest Ipsos/Cook Political Report poll " at: http://www.ipsos-reid.com/pdf/media/mr031124-2tb.pdf

"The latest Time/CNN poll " at: http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101031201/poll/index.html
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #80
174. Well, if you're in the richest 5%, you got a refund on taxes you never....
..paid in the first place. And that will probably guarantee Junior that 5% of the vote. Except for possibly Warren Buffet and George Soros.

And if you're a weapons manufacturer or a Halliburton executive, things have gotten a Hell of a lot better under the BCE. But again, that won't get Junior that many votes, and they probably voted for him last time.

I've been saying for months now that there are various right wing factions that would turn on the Fraudministration in a heartbeat if they had a third party choice - and right now a Pat Buchanan - Roy Moore ticket could be a serious blessing to our nominee.

Here's a wildcard for you - middle of the roaders who voted against Gore last time because they believed the NRA rhetoric that "Gore wants your guns". The NRA hates the possibility of a Howard Dean ticket, because they can't distort his position on guns after giving him an A rating. And so there's a block of swing voters back in the fold right there. Couple that with defections from the right, and the fact that Bush LOST last time (i.e. had half a million less votes) and it's clear that despite all the corporate media spin, the advantage, as I see it, is in our corner. So let's settle the issue after Super Tuesday and get down to kicking Bush Junior ass!
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Frodo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #39
172. Um...... Yes?
Yes, there are lots of people who voted for Gore who will not vote for the Democratic candidate this time. Hopefully, we can get more to move the other way.

The idea that every vote that went to Gore automatically gets inherited by whoever we run is pure arrogance (and a politically deadly variety at that).

All of the people who add up the electoral math and start with "assume (insert candidate name here) wins all the states Gore won (insert appropriate language about Gore actually winning FL here), all (candidate "X") has to do is pick up one more state and (states "Q" "R" and "S") will be easy!" are fooling themselves and leading down a path to defeat.


Gore is not the same as "Candidate 'X'". Not only was he more experienced/qualified than almost anyone on the shelf this go-round (especially in foreign policy), he was a better debater than we are likely to pick (and shrub will STILL benefit from lowered expectations). He's closer to Graham, Clark, Edwards in many political positions than he would ever be to the people we're likley to nominate and had lots of advantages in the south that Dean will not have. Florida was not "in play" two years after 2000 despite all the news because the candidate at the top of the ticket was not as attractive as Gore. Pick the wrong guy and Florida won't be in play this time.

I can't stress this too much: he was something of a bore (stiff, whatever), but Gore was FAR from the worst candidate we could have put up there. And this time shrub is an incumbent President. We can't pretend any longer that he's the governor of a state with a "constitutionaly weak governorship" He's obviously going to start with the best resume' on the ballot.


In short? Pick Dean (and I'm not knocking him) without the right VP (Graham, Clark, Edwards, Cleland - get the picture?) and see the economy turn around? Florida, WV, and a couple other Gore states will not be in play in a close election)
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seaglass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #172
198. Thank you. It's not enough that Bush's policies are becoming
increasingly unpopular - it does depend on who our candidate is.

Some people do vote against their best interests and some people do vote for the lesser of two evils. In fact many who voted for Gore did exactly that as did many who voted for Bush.

I have two concerns right now, foreign policy and the economy. The final report for Bush, for the undecided and uninformed voters is not out yet.
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #38
77. Can't possibly?
Interesting. How did you come to the conclusion that this is IMPOSSIBLE? I mean, you didn't state that as opinion. You said Can't Possibly. I mean, why bother voting then?
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #77
94. Gee, you didn't have any problem with the initial post
which made an equally absurd prediction.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #38
89. What a crock Clarkies cook!
Last year at this time, Dean was an asterick in the polls. Through sheer effort, good timing, sound judgment, calculated risk taking, and ingenuity, Dean is now the frontrunner in the early primary states, not Clark. Dean's rise and ability to increase, not just sustain, his people-power, is due to his superb political skills, something Clark lacks desperately.

Clark has made major tactical errors starting with is horrendous announcement speech. He entered the front-loaded Primary Prez race late, thus forcing him to hit the ground running faster than his limited political skills could handle. With his own words and incompetence, the general blew up his best chance to siphon off Dean's core support group -- the anti-Iraq war supporters -- when he blurted to reporters that he would have voted for IWR. He pulled out of Iowa, which cost him the AFSCME union endorsement, which went to Clark's chief rival, Dean. And because he was late entering the race, he was forced to take FEC matching funds. This will cripple his campaign, should he be the nominee, because Bush-Rove will cream Clark during the March to August timeframe because Clark, unless he chooses to spend little, will have no funds to defend himself against the Bush-Rove machine.
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PSU84 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #89
92. "Last year at this time, Dean was an asterick in the polls."
And next year, he'll be a footnote in the history books.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #92
131. Actually that is where Clark is heading
His incompetence is fissiling his 4 star media hyped entry.
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Nashyra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #131
146. I'm sure it has been posted before
but your shrill assessment of a courageous and noble man speaks volumes of the "Dean" supporter. If you truly want your candidate to win in the primaries then perhaps a change of rhetoric should be considered. I happen to think that Clark better represents my views but it is yet to be seen if those views are the majority, your candidate and your views are in the same position. Who ever wins the nomination will need as much support as possible considering the media will work for *. On that note if Clark gains momentum it is more likely CNN will be kinder to him because he was once "one of their own" and whores will be whores, when it becomes clear that Clark can beat * the CNN whores will be falling all over themselves calling Clark "old buddy"
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #146
209. If Clark wins the nomination fair and square, and not by backroom
deals at the convention, then I'll vote for him, but I won't send him money, since he thinks it's OK to ship my job to India.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #146
210. And my assessment of Clark is not shrill
It's on the money.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #38
117. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #117
154. "You Are So Stupid...."
WhAt a fucked up illiberal thing to say....


Why didn't you call him an idiot....


<kisses>


Brian
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GalleryGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #38
118. Well Put...Nittanny Lion!
I get essays like Freddy Boy's submitted all the time. Dripped with self-appointed arrogance. Anyhow-stick with Clark,a true american hero.
Sometimes this place is like College Ave. on a Saturday night.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #38
128. Clark has a problem...
he can't beat Dean.

When it comes to civilian political campaigning, Dean blows away Clark. The general is getting his posterior blown off in Iowa, and NH. He is losing to Dean in Arizona, New Mexico, and New York. California is still in play for now, but Dean is an aggressive campaigner with a very loyal following and those poll numbers will improve for Dean, just like they are for him in Iowa against Gephardt.

Clark is like a fish out of water.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #38
158. You could make the arguement that none of the candidates can beat Bush
Each of them (Dean included) have their flaws.
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eissa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
40. I will give you the benefit of doubt
and assume you did not mean to come off so arrogantly. This race is NOT over. Yes, I'm a Dean supporter, but a single vote has yet to be cast! Sorry, but there is no need for this kind of post. Maybe when the primaries are over and we have our nominee we can try to pull this bs with our repuke friends in an attempt to discourage them!
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
41. Exhibit B in why I would never vote for Dean.
Edited on Mon Dec-01-03 02:00 PM by BillyBunter
Exhibit A is the man himself, of course, but if he wasn't enough, the overweening ugliness of his fanboys certainly would be.

Ugh, I joined the same party these bots belong to?
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. Interesting...a fella' that calls himself arrogant
getting a little pissy when faced with arrogance. Poor, poor you :cry:
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #47
58. Arrogance is one thing.
Foolish arrogance is another. Try that shoe on -- I bet it fits fine.
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Redleg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #41
60. So you'll either not vote or you will vote for Bush or a non-Dem
Edited on Mon Dec-01-03 02:33 PM by Redleg
candidate instead if Dean is our nominee?
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
42. What does this remingd me of?
That's kind of like saying, "Like it or not Bush is going to be reelected" isn't it (different message, same type of logic)?
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. Right. bush is going to have more money than whomever..
prevails on our side. Should we just anoint bush king now?
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
50. 3 tiers of probability
highest - Kerry Dean Clark
midrange(not likely but more likely than the lower) - Lieberman Gephardt Edwards
lowest - Kucinich Moseley-Braun Sharpton
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AmericanDem Donating Member (521 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
51. LOL
:silly: :dunce:
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bobbyboucher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
55. More blubbering from the anti-Dean chorus,
starring all the usual suspects. I have to say it, there may be alot of Dean supporters who may (or may not) get annoying, but the anti-Dean contingent is so far ahead in predictability, and chicken little attitudes, and desperation, and your run of the mill sour grapes that they definetely take the cultish, automoton prize right away from the Deanies.

Go Dean or Clark or Kerry or Edwards or Kucinich or Lieberman or Mosely-Braun or Gephardt or Sharpton or ........

So much sabotage around here. I'd bet the house that some of the Dean bashers will vote for Bush.

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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. You've got that right
Engage a few of the most outspoken Dean haters and they'll eventually tell you that they won't vote for Dean in a matchup against Bush. Bush is apparently only the anti-christ if their guy is running against him, otherwise he's no biggie.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #57
81. If there is a grain of truth to" "they won't vote for Dean"
here on a liberal web site then the actual scenario in the real moderate world out there beyond cyberspace will probably find a lot of people voting FOR Bush against Dean.
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bobbyboucher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #81
133. Believe whatever you would like,
it doesn't matter much to me. If you think that everyone posting here is true then pinch yourself, cause you are dreaming.

There are plenty of Bush voters here and they aren't fooling me. How about you?
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last_texas_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #57
218. Just out of curiosity
When has a "Dean-basher" posted that they would vote for * in a head-to-head matchup with Dean? I may not post all that much, but I read these boards regularly and have yet to read that once. In fact, the majority of "Dean-bashers" seem to oppose his nomination because they consider him to be too *conservative*, so it seems quite unlikely any of them would consider voting for * over Dean...
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ultrafoil Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #55
101. cry me a river
just like your candidate.
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bobbyboucher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #101
135. What candidate is that, Karnac?
Whoa, what a shock, another reactionary Dean/whomever hater adding to the debate.

Listen, you aren't fooling anyone, but thanks for trying.
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Bake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
61. This just means I need to work harder
Particularly since not a single vote has been cast. I talked today with a 2000 BUSH voter who says he supports Dean. I suggested he take a look at Wes Clark. We had a very thoughtful conversation. I need to do more of that.

Bake
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #61
67. THAT is where things will be won, in the end
conversations... with people who may be on the fence... uneasy with the cheery news but dribs and drabs of other news items that seep through (and they do) that raise questions... people who may see on or two of the dem debates... just in case... as they may be ripe to switch. Then WE, armed with good information, start talking... many, many votes to be had - if we nurture the one on one and start now.

Do it on behalf of one's favorite candidate, or on behalf of pulling voters away from the fear proproganda bush machine. In the end we are going to need to do this all the time on behalf of our nominee.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
63. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
76. Oh, yay.

Another communique from the Deanintern!

If there's one thing the Democratic Party shouldn't do, it's to embrace the Bolshevism of these Dean partisans.

Maybe the Czarism of the Republicans is horrid, but the Dean-identified "cure" is an intensification of the disease, not the cure.

It's not so much Dean that pisses people like me off, it's Trippi and people like you who the swing vote runs away from once they catch the whiff of Leninism. It's no accident that- pretend as you may- your man always comes in behind Bush.
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #76
109. I vehemently disagree with this.
There were actually divisions within the Bolshevik movement, and luminaries besides Lenin: Trotsky, Zionoviev, Kamenev, Bukharin, to name a few. By comparison, no such divisions exist in the Deanite camp. "Grape or cherry?" is hardly the sort of thing to cause radical disagreements.
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PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
78. I am SICK and TIRED of Dean. I am NOT impressed with him.
There are other candidates out there too you know!!!!

I do NOT care for Dean's message either.
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #78
83. Tired of Dean?
So? I mean, SO?

I'm tired oflots of stuff, I'm not going to air it all out in public. Support your guy.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. Sorry PROGRESSIVE1
but the Great God Hep has decided "So what?"
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Patriot_Spear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #78
88. My teenage son gets 'tired' of stuff too...
'Tired' of Dean? geez...
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #88
95. Does your teenaged son
also make ridiculous claims about who is going to get the Dem nomination?
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Patriot_Spear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #95
100. No. But he is a Dean supporter!
Personally, I'm ABB (except Lieberman). :evilgrin:
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #100
102. Then he's got one up
on Freddie Stubbs! :-)
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bobbyboucher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #78
138. Good for you, now
support your guy or girl and resist doing the bidding of Karl Rove by attacking other Dems. As you can undoubtedly see, there are plenty here that can attack Dean under the guise of supporting some unnamed candidate. Let them have at it.

Support your candidate, anything can happen, nobody has cast a vote yet.

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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
87. Why Dean? GOP already has Bush running in 2004.
The DEMs should offer an alternative. No; "I represent the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party" doesn't cut it. The nation needs a real Democrat.
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ultrafoil Donating Member (91 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
91. Have you ever played chess?
Dean is a non starter in the general election, if we lose this election this country is doomed for the next 20 years.

Clark is the next prez, 8 years, and I trust him.

Wise up.
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
96. if he wins, so be it
he'll get my vote and maybe some of my money. But it's not going to stop me supporting my guy until then. ABB
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
98. I admit he may be the nominee, but I don't like it.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #98
173. Oh yeah, I forgot this, Like it or not, Dean will be trounced by Bush
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Blue_Roses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #173
208. yep and sadly, I agree
there is no way Dean can win ANY of the south--this whole thing has me eating my fingernails.

I just can't take another 4 years of bush.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
103. "I was never in any predicament that threatened to end in disaster"
Edited on Mon Dec-01-03 03:36 PM by oasis
Capt. Edward J. Smith. (1850-1912)
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #103
140. Hmm..... Let me guess
I'll bet the Titanic sank in 1912.

Anyway, if what the original poster says is true- I definitely don't like it.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #140
150. There's no scarcity of icebergs in the vast ocean of politics.
:-)
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Adjoran Donating Member (650 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
104. It's FAR from over
although Dean is the clear frontrunner now.

Dean's ahead in fundraising. So was Phil Gramm in 1996, by a long shot. He said "Money is the mother's milk of politics." He was out a couple months later.

Kerry has become a long shot, and will need to close the gap in NH to have any chance. Fortunately for him (like for Clinton in '92), he may no longer have to win NH now that Dean is so far ahead. If Kerry finishes closer than predicted, he could win the "expectations game" and revitalize his campaign.

The real contenders at this point are Dean, Gephardt, and Clark. If Gephardt wins Iowa, he has a practically guaranteed win in his home state of Missouri on Feb 3, and so will be able to continue. Clark looks to win SC at least, and should also gain enough momentum to keep going. One or the other of them will be the beneficiary of the inevitable "stop Dean" movement.

That's nothing against Dean, it's just the way politics works. As other candidates are winnowed out, it will devolve into a two- or three-way race.

I'm uncommitted, and will support the nominee. The nominee will be the one who wins a majority of delegates in the primaries.

You can declare victory all you want. As Yogi Berra said, though, "It ain't over, 'til it's over!"

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MISSDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #104
111. Not one of these clowns who is running for the nomination
can beat Bush. Get over it. Unless Hilliary, or some unknown superstar type runs, go to sleep until 2008.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #111
115. With friends like you
Dean doesn't need enemies. This is your idea of helping his campaign out, huh?
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #104
112. Gramm's fundraising lead was never complimented by a lead in the polls
Dean has both.
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TexasPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
113. love the ending
"And that person is Howard Dean. Get used to it."

i think a lot of camps on this site need to relax. its called comity people. save your insane righteous anger for w*.

last time i checked 2/3 of the dems polled didnt pick Dean or (insert second candidate here) as their candidate of choice... when 2 candidates can total 1/3 of the dems, then we'll see what sort of noises get made.

Until then - when people have a right to talk in terms of an Anti-Dean / Anti-Clark / Anti-Gephardt / Anti-Sharpton candidate - i think we all have the right to discuss our candidates without the 'you're a defeatist' smack.
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GalleryGod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
116. Yo,Freddie! Welcome to my ignore list!
BTW if you submitted that in my class-I'd give you a "C-".
:puffpiece:
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #116
120. That would definitely pull down my GPA
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AmericanDem Donating Member (521 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
119. Pumping up by GOP and Major Media why shouldnt he be?
:hurts:
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markus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
121. Two words for every one here: Super Delegates
I started this discussion earlier in another thread, but it's now three pages doesn in GD.

Forty percent of the delegates to the convention are already "selected", and their intentions are unknown. Many are in Congress and would be as likely to support Gephardt or Kerry. Others are party officials.

None are liable to like and "insurgent" candidate like Dean. In fact, Super Delegates were created specifically to give our own nomenklatura veto power over voter selected delegates.

Here's an inteseting article on the subject, still up at MSNBC. http://www.msnbc.com/news/912997.asp

Now, the interesting question: Dean shows up with less than 50% of the delegates. This is virtually guaranteed, as 40% already selected and have good reason to dislike Dean or feel threatened by him.

I really think this is the Clinton/Clark strategy (Bill's not Hillary's; she wouldn't like waiting until 20012 to run). Get the super delegates behind the highly electable and mallable Clark.

We get a Clintonesque Democrat. We get gid of Bush. Life is wonderful.

Well, I can think of some ways in which a Clntonesque Democrat might not be a good thing, but that's a seperate thread.
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jsw_81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #121
155. Not going to happen
If Dean does well in the primaries but comes just short of winning the nomination there is no way the so-called superdelegates will turn on him. It would tear the party apart and ensure four more years of *.
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markus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #155
195. Go back to the video from earlier this year
of the DNC meetings. That was a room full of non-Congressional super delegates.

Remember the standing ovation Dean received? Bush gets better applause from the Dems during his state of the union.

That was the face of the Super Delegates. If they think that Dean is a loser, they will turn on him.

Hell, that's why Super Delegates were created. They were part of the effort to de-democratize the candidate selection process after '72 and '76.

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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
122. Do you hear that, Mr. Anderson?
That is the sound of inevitability.

:eyes:

How about we wait until people actually start voting?
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #122
124. Bob Graham didn't wait
Perhaps he is on to something
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HoosierClarkie Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #124
125. He likes Clark.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #125
126. Perhaps the political wizards who ran Graham's campaign
can do the same for Clark.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #126
160. perhaps the wizards who ran Gramm's campaign
can warn Dean supporters of the dangers of overconfidence.
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kiahzero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #124
129. So when/if Sharpton and Braun drop out
That'll be more evidence for your theory? :eyes:
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #129
143. Sharpton isn't going to drop out
He know he can't really win, so his lack of real success is not a setback.
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shindig Donating Member (187 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
123. then get used to four more years of bush
If you think that during war time, when average John and Jane American Voter close their eyes in their respective general election voting booths, that they are going to pull the lever and cast their vote to turn the country over to the birkenstock wearing, draft dodging, middle class tax raising, gay-marriage loving, angry, smug, red-faced, elitist, "librul" northeastener, you ain't got a clue. (Oh, btw, I'll vote for him in a New York minute over George Bush, just to make sure you know) BUT, this election isn't about ME or YOU, it is about HOW THE REST OF THE COUNTRY TENDS TO VOTE, ESPECIALLY DURING WARTIME.

Keep drinking that kool-aid Freddie... You got the power!!! And enjoy your glory while you have it, sir.

But I am afraid that if this maddening steamroller of a candidate, Howard Dean, actually does become the democratic nominee, we are in for a Bush landslide. And don't coming crying to me next November. I will remember your smug (Howard Dean like?) originating post from today. I may be a democrat, but I got a memory like an elephant. And also, comes next November, I don't want to hear you complaining about the reason Dean lost the general election was because we didn't pull together.

If General Wesley Clark's timely candidacy is wasted in favor of Governor Howard Dean's power trip, I will, nonetheless, work for Dean and I will vote for him. GOT THAT?

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bobbyboucher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #123
145. Why waste the effort?
If you are so certain of his defeat, why would you waste the time helping his campaign? Or for that matter, why bother to vote, it ain't gonna change the fact that Bush will walk all over him, no?

I too will vote for the nominee, but you won't here me say even one time that I think Bush will win a landslide over any of them. That is defeatist bullshit and could quite easily disuade some from voting. It just doesn't make any sense to me. How often do you tell people that you think bush will win in a landslide over Dean if he is the nominee? Could you explain why?
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5thGenDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
130. Get used to this (hypothetically, of course)
What if I were to say that I intend to vote for Clark regardless of whether he's the Dem nominee, a third-party nominee or a write-in?
Think I'm the only one? I bet I'm not.
John
Again, this is hypothetical. Why would this fifth-generation Democrat go against the dictates of the party after all the party's done for me lately?
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Julien Sorel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #130
144. But it would be a new Democratic Party,
Edited on Mon Dec-01-03 05:48 PM by BillyBunter
run by pleasant, inclusive, and -- this is key -- honest people, because Howard Dean will get to select them, and he and his cultists are pleasant, inclusive, and honest people. Witness their postings in this thread, for example.

Your problem isn't with the Democratic Party per se; it's with the party leadership. Once a mover and shaker like Howard gets done moving and shaking, it's going to be a whole new party, full of the fresh approaches and policy initiatives that Howard is famous for, like anger and rage and red-faced, angry speeches delivered to adoring, angry and empty-headed crowds.

Be patient, and most importantly, give Howard the opportunity to make a difference he so richly deserves. After he's done spanking Bush like the bad boy he is, Howard will renew your faith in the Democratic Party. Instead of being controlled by Clinton appointees, it will be controlled by Dean acolytes, and if you get lucky, they might even drop one of their pearls of empowerment your way. Wouldn't that be something?
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5thGenDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #144
148. That's about right
Come for the honesty, stay for the anger.
John
I'm still "Anybody but Bush." I hereby promise and swear that I will cast my vote next November for someone besides Bush. I'm honest and angry, too.
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lameone Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
132. ummm...Can you say CLINTON!?
I seem to recall Clinton only started to make the move to win the nomination AFTER he won New Hampshire. He was no where near leading the national poll before New Hampshire, so I think it's safe to say anything can happen in 6 months.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #132
166. Six months?
Try less than two months. The NH primary is in January. Guess who currently has a huge lead there?
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #132
214. Clinton didn't win NH,
Paul Tsongas did. George Bush 41 didn't win NH, Pat Buchanan did. George Bush 43 didn't win NH, John McCain did.

NH ain't what it used to be. And Dean ain't no Bill Clinton.

Clark-Edwards 2004
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Beaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
134. there's stilla LONG time before the FIRST vote is cast.
nothing is inevitable.

except for Dean losing to Bush IF Dean gets the nomination.

Sorry...I didn't want to have to be the one to burst your bubble, but...
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TexasPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #134
136. that doesnt help
there is no inevitability to dean losing to anyone... so can it.

hell, at the rate W*'s numbers tend to tank, the country could be ready for 'the sharpton economy' by the time next november rolls around.

i swear, if it werent for the fact that so many of you actually participate in real threads around here, i'd think this was freaking rec.pets.cats all over again.
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bobbyboucher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #134
147. Could you please explain
the advantage of telliing people that you think Bush will beat Dean if he is the nominee? You literally have no way of knowing, so it is only conjecture at this point. So do you think that you are going to save the Democratic Party from the mistake of nominating Howard Dean, because another candidate has so much better a chance to win than Dean?

What is the advantage? I could think of many disadvantages. I would like to hear your reasoning. Just curious, what is the advantage of saying, with conviction, that there is no way Dean can win?
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Beaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #147
163. just curious myself about something-
what is the advantage of saying, with conviction, that Dean is going to be the nominee?

I personally don't see anyway that Dean will be able to win if he is the nominee. I was first enamoured with Dean...many months ago...but the more I hear and see him, the less chance I feel he has against Bush and this Regime. Roveco is going to shred him, if they're given the chance.

I just want to be on record, so that I can say "I told you so..." when the day comes.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #134
169. Votes start being cast in one month
In MI, those voting over the Internet can vote beginning the first week in January.
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5thGenDemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #169
182. Thanks for the heads-up
I'm most certainly not going to vote for Dean, but I AM going to vote.
John
And I'll vote again in November. Isn't it nice to live in a country where we all used to have a voice?
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lewiston Donating Member (86 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
137. Peace
In the words of Rodney King "Can't we.....
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lewiston Donating Member (86 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
139. Peace
In the words of Rodney King "Can't we.....
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HoosierClarkie Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
141. Actually he's gettin' by with a little help from his friends: Clintons.
I understand and appreciate that you are a Dean fan, but the whole premise of your thread is absurd. Clark is raising a lot of money. Not bad for a guy who was unknown 3 months ago.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #141
178. I agree that Clark is raising an impressive amount fo money
But he hasn't developed a grassroots network anywhere as large as Dean. Perhaps if he had entered the race earlier...
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HoosierClarkie Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #178
180. I agree...
as a grassrooter, it was frustrating for awhile before he announced. However, I am very proud of his progress. He really could not start the race any earlier because he and his wife had found out that their future daughter-in-law was pregnant and they were planning his sons wedding. I truly believe he was waiting for his wife to give him a thumbs up.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #180
197. Confirmed
I met and spoke to Clark's sister in law at a meet up in upstate NY. She said Clark did not enter any earlier because he had pledged Gert that he would not run so long as she had objections to it. It really took all that time before she stepped aside.
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TopesJunkie Donating Member (979 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
142. There is no certain nominee. Not by a longshot.
Sorry, I'm a Dean supporter, but it's just goofy to think he's got anything even remotely sown up. This is a long horse race, and it's a lot closer than some around here apparently think.
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mlawson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
149. Dean is not The Annointed One, IMO.
It would be fine with me, but not with the DNC.

The Annointed One is Kerry, mark my words.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #149
153. Kerry the "annointed one" maybe. But the people don't think so.
IMO, Kerry would do terribly against Bush. He's to the left of Dean, supported the IWR, and comes off as arrogant to everybody. War hero status doesn't do anything for you. McGovern was a veteran.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #153
177. That's the problem with the Insider statists
They feel entitled to these things. And that is the very reason they need to be replaced.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #153
215. Not Kerry
I once thought, not so long ago, that a Kerry-Edwards ticket was the Democratic dream team. WRONG!!!

Kerry has blown it. His IWR vote and subsequent spinning, his defensiveness about Dean, his failure to even cast a vote last week against the Medicare bill (limpy wimpy wouldn't go on record ... hmmmm), his failure to resonate with Dems (much less independents and disaffected repukes), his face (oops, my bad, I mean his lack of telegenicity in this TV age)....

Anointed loser
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #149
162. Dean is annointed by the corporate media.
And Gephardt, Kerry, Edwards and Clark have the DNC divided so while Kerry has the edge with the DNC, he is hardly annointed.
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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #162
211. Dean is annointed by his small donor supporters who have sent him
$25 million to date, and it's Dean's small donors who voted to OK their candidate to forgo FEC matching funds. Kerry did it on his own and is going into debt to fund his dying campaign.
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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
152. What A Ugly Thread....
And they call the Clark supporters bullyboys...
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #152
159. Clark and Dean supporters
seem virtually indistinquishable to me.
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #159
185. Check out the Unity thread more Clarkies than Deanies n/t
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #152
168. Politics isn't always pretty
It is a rough and tumble business.
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
156. Good job
in alienating a whole bunch of people Dean will need if he does win the nomination. :eyes:

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DemocratSinceBirth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
161. I Think Most Folks Would Agreee Dean Is The Frontrunner
as of now as the Bucs were favored to win the Superbowl this year....

Alot can happen....

But that's not the purpose of my post.....

Why did you have to poop on the other candidates and indirectly their suporters....

It betrays a haughtniness and certain meanness that's not very becoming....


<kisses>

Brian
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
164. Well, golly gee--I guess we can just skip those silly primaries, then!
What an absurdly premature pronouncement. :eyes:
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #164
179. You can bet the DNC would love to skip the primaries...
Rather than be forced to announce Howard Dean as the Democratic nominee for the President of the United States. I would pay good money just to see the looks on their faces as they form the words.


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bitchkitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
165. You got it, bro - I knew he was the one
the first time I went to his web site.

I have to disagree with you about Carole Mosely Braun, however - she has no business running? Bite your tongue! I love CMB!
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LSparkle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
170. Wrong
I am so sick of people claiming that it was Dennis Kucinich's actions that "bankrupted" Cleveland. He refused to sell out the city's electrical plant to private interests which resulted in the city going into receivership. His ability to stand up to the greedy privatists enabled residents to continue to receive affordable energy -- and the wisdom his actions has now been proven. (I live in California where -- foolishly -- no one stood against Enron/Williams et al.) Oh yeah, and you're wrong about Dean being our nominee, too.
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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
171. Cool! This means I'll have a lot of free time next spring, summer...
and fall (since it just takes a few minutes to merely vote a straight Democratic ticket)
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Cush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 07:45 PM
Response to Original message
176. Nothing is set yet...Too many undecided
There are more "Undecided Voters" than there are supporters of anyone canidate. And face it, the majority of people still aren't following the race yet.

Anything can happen
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
181. Well I guess
Edited on Mon Dec-01-03 10:39 PM by Frenchie4Clark
We don't need a general, with you around to give orders. Is this what a Dean presidency would look like? That's why he said he didn't care what 70% of people would think....

Looks like nationally he's running 20% out of 100%....doesn't yet sound like a winner....just has a bit more of the percentage...must be that media making his name a household name.
name recognition is working for Lieberman too......

Peace out!
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
183. I think you should change the title
to , oh, how about, "IN MY OPINION"

Sheesh. The election has not happened yet has it?

This does not help the discourse here at DU.

Why not just tell everyonme else to not bother, discount them and their opinions, belittle them, and bash their candidates?

No one is a lock, and there are many good candidates.

Please post positive threads about Dean, and you'll attract more people...
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
184. I take strong offense to your comments about Sharpton and Braun
First of all, Sharpton has my vote in the primaries. That man has been the most open and upfront during this campaign and you know it. He is not simply there for your comic relief or to become the leader of Black America. Are the white male candidates running for the purposes of leading white America? Shame on you! And the Tawanna Brawley matter? Save it. I take it you have no problems believing the girl who claims that Kobe raped her, but I guess you're allowed to because the girl is white and Kobe is black. According to you there is no possibility of the reverse happening (a white man raping a black girl) so therefore Sharpton should be in jail for believing a young teenager who claimed she was attacked.

Secondly, Braun is one of the most intelligent candidates running. No, she is not my first choice and her chances of winning are slim to none, much like Lieberman, Kucinich, and Kerry. However, she has every right to be there because she is a well educated, American citizen and it is her right! Also, think of the many young minorities who are watching her campaign and growing inspiration and the motivation to run for President one day. Again, shame on you!
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minkyboodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #184
188. I agree
I thought your comments on Kucinich were bullshit as well. You mentioned nothing about how he campaigned on his "bankrupting" of the city and the fact that he has been redeemed and even rewarded by the city for his stance. Really this thread is serves no positive purpose for any candidate. Thanks for it buddy keep up the crappy work.
Scott
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #184
201. A jury found Sharpton guilty of defamation
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Beaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #184
203. CMB has not earned the right to run.
unless pissing away a democratic senate seat counts.
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mbali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #203
219. What gives one the "right" to run?
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cindyw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
186. Good, now you can sit back and stop campaigning.
Dean has it all sewn up. Take a vacation for a few months. We'll take again when Dean is the winner. Don't bother with convincing any more people. It's all over now. Just remember that Deanies. You can stop canvassing now.

Either way, Kerry wins in the end.
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
187. You know what's funny, Dean can have it. From what I can see this
Country DOES NOT DESERVE CLARK. Push Dean. Get him the Nomination and if he loses, you get what you deserve. If he wins and you find out he's not as liberal as you thought...you'll still get what you deserve.

Seems to me its a win win situation.

tee hee hee
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #187
200. I know that he is not a liberal
He doens't call himself a liberal.

A common-sense moderate who firmly believes that social justice can only be accomplished through strong financial management, Governor Dean has cut the income tax twice, removed the sales tax on most clothing, and reduced the state's long-term debt.

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=about_biography
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #187
206. now that's a TEAM player!!
Not.

What a phoney you were when pretneding to want peace between the camps.

Of course to see the post-count you've racked up in less than two months (ironically, much like many other Clark supporters) there is no suprise at your tone. Your motive is clear.

Too bad, if Clark doesn't win the nom., many ofhis supporters are so self-centered they'll do what they can to have the Dems lose. Sad. Says a lot. None of it good.

Adios you fraud.

Julie

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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #187
207. now that's a TEAM player!!
Not.

What a phoney you were when pretending to want peace between the camps.

Of course to see the post-count you've racked up in less than two months (ironically, much like many other Clark supporters) there is no suprise at your tone. Your motive is clear.

Too bad, if Clark doesn't win the nom., many ofhis supporters are so self-centered they'll do what they can to have the Dems lose. Sad. Says a lot. None of it good.

Adios you fraud.

Julie

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Larkspur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #187
212. I DO NOT WANT Clark
whether you think I deserve him or not.

The general is a doppleganger.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
192. Your arrogance reminds me of Gary Hart supporters in 1984
...and we all know that he got the nomination, right?

Don't forget, there's still 90% of the American populace who CANNOT NAME ONE DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE. And also, don't forget, your boy Howard only has ±30% in most polls-- that leaves a full 70% of Democrats who want someone else.

:eyes:
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Emoto Donating Member (914 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
221. You may be right, but...
Here is a bit that indicates his grasp of the world...

"The key, I believe, to Iran, is pressure through the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union is supplying much of the equipment that Iran I believe mostly likely is using to set itself along the path of developing nuclear weapons. We need to use that leverage with the Soviet Union, and it may require us buying the equipment the Soviet Union was ultimately going to sell to Iran, to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons."
~ Howard Dean speaking at Harvard University, 12/1/03.

SOVIET UNION??? Earth to Howard...
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
222. OK Dean can Have it. I don't particularly care. If I had to campaign
with some of the Dean folks I see here I'd choose to be apathetic.
This post pretty much seals it for me.
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maha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
223. Not if he loses the Southern primaries.
Edited on Tue Dec-02-03 06:20 PM by maha
If he can win some Southern primaries great, but I don't think he will. I think he's peaking now.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-03 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #223
224. I am locking this thread.
It has become inflammatory and some personal attacks have been removed.


NYer99
DU Moderator
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