The beating death of the black man by police

[DrWeird]

Poll question: The beating death of the black man by police

It's all over the news this morning if you haven't seen the video. If you did see the video...

[LittleApple81]

1. Do police carry other means of restraint? (i.e., nets, or something that

won't let the suspect move and does not require a beating).

This guy is so big that any flailing might have been construed as resistance.

[arewethereyet]

122. no. night sticks and guns.

they did not shoot him, they opted for the milder choice. you don't resist arrest or you accept the consequences. given his bulk he had no business resisting. i'm surprized his heart didn't explode immediately.

[TSElliott]

2. Have they determined the cause of death yet?

Last I read they had not conducted an autopsy to determine if the baton blows to the torso were the cause of death.

[DrWeird]

3. Well it's not conclusive...

but I'm pretty sure it might have been something to do with repeatedly being beaten.

[TSElliott]

4. It could also be...

Someone who was an out of shape 40 year old, who weighed 400 pounds, exerted too much force in a struggle and had a heart attack.

[Cooley Hurd]

12. According to CNN, enlarged heart

and coroner says he had coke & pcp in his system...

[Walt Starr]

15. So the beating had less to do with it than the exertion when he

attacked the cops.

[arewethereyet]

124. you got it

and the drugs didn't help either.

[rasputin1952]

104. Autopsy came up with enlarged heart...

and traces of "drugs", no mnetion of what type.

Enlarged heart could have caused death.

While there were bruises on the body, none were consisent with vital organs being struck or affected.

[Isome]

5. I love THIS...

Will all those who said he had it coming please step forward. Come on, don't be shy!

[Character Assassin]

6. And I just loooove the psychics who think this is 'out and out murder'

When no autopsy/blood test results have been released yet.

[Isome]

13. Who said it was out & out murder... come forward please!!

e o m

[Character Assassin]

22. Please avail yourself to the categories in this poll up top.

Ought to do the trick.

[Isome]

32. No, it ought and will not... n/t

[Character Assassin]

33. Obviously some people think that it was....

And that fact seems to be lost on you.

Pity.

[Isome]

35. Wrong-o ...oh' so presumptuous one...

The choices listed, by themselves, tell only how many people chose each one, not WHO chose each one. To know WHO, all of the posts would have to clearly indicate which choice was selected.

But not all of them are clear, which is why I asked. Oh' and you can certainly save that pity for yourself.

[Character Assassin]

37. It seems clear to me that names are not particularly important.

The point is that some people, whoever the hell they may be, are stupid enough to have chosen that option before the evidence is in.

I wasn't pitying you, per se, but the fact that it was lost on you.

Pity.

[Isome]

39. Again with the presumption ...

Do save the pity for yourself, with all the assumptions you make, you'll need it.

[Karenina]

46. Crisis assessment...

an UNARMED, morbidly obese, disoriented, possibly drugged man who has been out in the cold going out of control, freaked out that the cops are trying to "get him." Hmmm... anyone ever think of a net? Throw one over him, cinch it up, let him thrash around to his failing heart's content, no one need fire a shot or deliver a blow... :shrug:

[Walt Starr]

49. Nets are not standard gear for cops

They had pepper spray, batons, and guns. They utilized what they had in a non-lethal manner. They had no way to know the guy took too much coke and PCP to handle it with his obesity and heart size.

[Karenina]

54. "Nets are not standard gear for cops"

Why not? Simple, cheap, non-lethal... Oops! I guess I answered my own question.

[Walt Starr]

63. Using just a net would require a great deal of training and practice

There is a new gun that was designed for crowd control that should probably become standard equipment once it is perfected.

The gun fires a net.

[Isome]

67. Using a net... too much training...

This is very true. It's easier just to beat the shit outta' someone. It's cheaper too!

[Walt Starr]

68. If one is stupid enough to attack a cop

one should expect a bullet in the brain as a cop is 100% justified in firing his weapon if he feels his life is threatened, which a physical attack from a 400 lb. man could easily be taken as.

I have no sympathy for this Darwin Award nominee. The cops were consumate professionals because even though they would have been justified in pulling their side arms and firing, they tried non-lethal means.

[ecstatic]

82. I certainly hope the investigators of this case aren't as

biased as you are. If your teen was high on something and half heartedly lashed out at a policeman, would you think he "had it coming" if he was shot dead?

[Walt Starr]

84. Yes, I would

There is no excuse for attacking a cop.

None.

I would teach my child better than that. Attacking a cop will get you one thing and one thing only.

Dead.

[jobycom]

191. Sorry, Walt, but that's tragically misguided

An unarmed person should never wind up dead during a police stop. Maybe this specific case is one where the man died due more to exertion than to the action of the cops, but your post goes beyond that, and implies that the police are justified in killing people for bad judgement, or for doing what they see ten times a day on television or in the movies.

No excuse for attacking a cop, true. But no excuse for an unarmed person to die by the hands of a cop, either. If they've gotten you to the point where you believe the Clint Eastwood films, then I'm sorry for you. I'm guessing from the wording of your post that you don't have a child. Any of us who do know that you will not feel that way when you do. People do dumb things, no matter what you teach them. They should not pay with their lives.

If the cop's life is in imminent and real danger, than that is another story, though even in that situation a cop who could take a non-lethal action but opts for lethal force should be tried for murder. But the mentality of preemptive self defense, or of fighting lesser force with greater force, is too ingrained in our society, and needs to be toned down. Americans don't value life that doesn't look like us. It will come back to haunt us. It already has, on 9-11, on the USS Cole, and doubtless at some point in the next few years it will haunt us to a degree to make 9-11 look insignificant. We'll learn the message the hard way. As France did, as Germany did, as England did during WWII.

I have several friends who are cops. None of them have ever killed anyone, though they won't actually answer that question directly. But all of them have stories about being attacked. Several of them have had cars try to run them down. One friend wrestled a naked 300 pound man for over fifteen minutes (several cops were involved). The man was on drugs, and was trying to get their guns the whole time. He was not shot, was not beaten, he was just wrestled until he gave up. If he had gotten a gun, the situation would have changed obviously. Another friend went to a traffic stop and had a gun whipped into his face. He wrestled the gun away, though he admits he was afraid for his life. When he got the gun, he threw it down, drew his own, and held it on the man until enough cops showed up to help him subdue the man. He had no urge to exact "street justice," though he probably could have. My point is, most cops will try to avoid a fatal confrontation. It is not normal to use lethal force. We are conditioned by TV and the movies to think otherwise, but that's the case. Most cops never kill anyone, and the few who have rarely have had to kill more than one person in a career. Most of those that do kill are haunted the rest of their lives by it. That's why stories like this become such big news-- because most cops end these situations peacefully.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

226. If you saw the video

(with the audio functioning), you would have heard one of the cops saying repeatedly, "Put your hands behind your back."

You can argue with a cop to a certain point. But when he takes out his nightstick, you'd damned well better do what he says or you're going to get stomped. I only have sympathy for the guy to the extent that he was probably half out of his head on PCP and otherwise probably would have complied with the officers. But if you going to put that poison into your body, it on you to deal with the consequences.

[SemperEadem]

231. big tough words that don't ring true

You either must not have a child or love your child to posture so pridefully.

[Isome]

93. Yeah... like the WACO nuts...

They should have just stormed the compound and taken everyone out instead of waiting all that time for them to set fire to it. Possibly some of those kids lives would have been saved. I'm glad they shot that skank woman on Ruby Ridge too! I wish they'd put an end to all those "sovereign nation" fools who have armed themselves to the teeth and won't allow rural law enforcement to even get on their property.

Law & order MUST prevail. If the authorities come for you, obey or get shot.

This guy could have been disoriented and not in his right mind; he was passed out prior to the police arriving on the scene. But no matter, they beat the shit out of him... in his right mind or not.

[Walt Starr]

96. Yep, the WACO nuts fired upon officers

They started it.

When the cops are about to arrest you, give up. Failure to do so can easily result in your death and no consequences for the cops who put their lives at risk arresting you.

Right mind or not, this guy attacked the cops and kept fighting them.

[Isome]

109. Yeah...

And if you're in your right mind or not, you deserve to die if you dare raise a hand to the police! Even if the pain of the blows creates an automatic response to get away from or stop any further infliction of pain. You have to get over your automatic responses and obey. That's the rule. I just wish the rule would be implemented more often.

For goodness sake, "twice as many police officers die by their own hand as do in the line of duty", but just the thought of someone resisting the baton blows is enough to warrant a celebration of their death and a concentrated effort to declare them cocaine addicts (sans toxicology test results). "A study of 2376 Buffalo NY police officers found that compared to the white male population, police officers had higher mortality rates for cancer, suicide, and heart disease", so even though this is Cincy police, it proves they don't need the added stress of trying to subdue a big ol' 400 lb man... just beat his ass and get it over with so they can get some rest!

[Walt Starr]

112. Cry for the fucking criminal who died all you want

The six cops in this event are heroes and deserve medals.

He got what he deserved. He chose to die.

[Isome]

120. Of course he did...

Because YOU said so! You would know better than anyone. Besides, it's wrong to care about human beings if they're guilty of public trespass. It's just wrong. Hell, just kill everybody... that's my motto!

[Walt Starr]

121. He assaulted a cop

That's asking for immediate death.

The cops deserve medals.

[Isome]

123. Medals... that's it...

They should be given the key to the NATION! They had weapons and he didn't, they were a THEY and he was a HE... but mob violence by police is as good as gold.

They showed incredible bravery in beating the hell outta' one fat ass, lumbering man with a heart condition. Whew... so brave, so strong they are! Kill 'em all, fat, short, skinny & tall!

[Walt Starr]

125. Glad you agree with me now

The fucking moron who was tanked up on PCP and cocaine had the strength of ten men, and it only took six cops without the use of firearms to take him down.

If the SOB didn't have a bad ticker and have PCP mixed with cocaine in his system, he'd be alive today because the professional cops chose the path of lowest lethality in an effort to subdue a man who felt no pain.

[Isome]

Oh' I almost forgot you're omnipotent in this case...

Cincy says the toxicology tests aren't done yet, but you know already. It's kinda' like Jessica Lynch being the rootin' tootin' shoot 'em up queen... until we found out she was out cold after her gun jammed.

dead, deserved it, dead, deserved it! All hail the brave men in blue who can join together to beat up ONE oversized, plodding man (who was passed out moments before their arrival) with a big ol' can of POLICE WHUP ASS! Give these men all the riches the state has to offer... they've saved our country from public trespassers! It's a red letter day.

[Walt Starr]

134. I'm going off the reports I've seen all day from multiple sources

He had PCP and cocaine in his system according to them.

Even if he didn't, he assaulted a cop. That is enough to get you killed.

[SemperEadem]

232. oh, the hourly reports on Faux?

[Ferretherder]

209. They 'chose the path of least lethality'...

...and took it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and.......until they didn't not have to go and take it no more.

[ecstatic]

83. Yeah, its better to just shoot people dead

After all, "those people" will never be rehabilitated.

[Walt Starr]

86. In this case, it certainly would have been justified

I've watched a man nearly get himself killed doing the same thing in the parking lot of a bar. The only difference was, he was in much better shape than this guy. Two cops had pulled their service revolvers when he finally realized he either gave up or died.

These cops were consumate professionals. They deserve an award for bravery.

[Fescue4u]

137. Let him thrash around

long enough to pull out a weapon?

Uh..no..

[jeter]

163. Who cares?

[Nlighten1]

53. Evidence that in this case is heavily biased...

towards the policeman's position. This guy struck first and the returned blows from the cops at first seem resonable. But did any of us really see what happened?


O. J. Simpson got away with it. This case isn't as clear as some might believe. That being said the jury is still out.

[bearfartinthewoods]

206. what does oj have to do with this?

[Nlighten1]

210. Well.

OJ is an example of how things aren't always as they seem.

[ecstatic]

215. OJ is always brought up when a famous black man is accused of a crime

Apparently it doesn't matter how different or unique the crime (e.g., Michael Jackson, Kobe B., Nathaniel Jones, etc.), OJ will always be injected into the conversation. Yet the comparison to OJ is never made when a white man is accused of a crime (e.g., Scott Peterson, Robert Durst, etc.). Several guilty white men have been acquitted of murder since OJ got off. While dozens of innocent minorities have either served decades in prison or even been executed (this is more the norm, black men accused of violent crimes are more likely to get tougher sentences or not have fair legal defense). Why do some still insist on bringing OJ into these discussions? Are they really that bitter or are they looking to take out their unresolved anger on the next famous black man accused of murder (or rape)?

[Catherine Vincent]

238. I hear ya!

[SemperEadem]

228. or they choose not to believe the spin the police are putting on it

[ultrafoil]

197. *here*

Murder.

6 on 1 with sticks and guns?

Sounds like one sh*tkicking joyride to me, I wonder they didn't chain him to a fence or summin'.

[Booberdawg]

198. You obviously didn't even watch the video

Did you even read the article?

[ultrafoil]

199. Yeah

I did.

400 pound fat guy getting BRUTALLY nailed in the ribs at least 5 times with the end of a stick.

Did you see it?

[ultrafoil]

200. btw

I believe that that was what killed him.

[Booberdawg]

203. You are incorrect

He died of a heart attack - enlarged heart. cocaine and PCP

[ultrafoil]

204. No

He died of an aortal laceration caused by a broken rib.

[bearfartinthewoods]

216. link?

i haven't seen the autopsy

[ultrafoil]

205. Also , Booderag whatever

Have YOU ever been beaten down by the police?

If you're a cop, have you ever beat a person down?

I'd like to know.

[Isome]

201. Huh'?

What makes you think ultra didn't watch the video? Geezus!!

[Walt Starr]

10. I voted that way

He attacked the police. The police were 100% justified in what they did.

[Isome]

16. dupe

[Walt Starr]

18. I make a judgement call when I see these things

The kid in California a while back that got beat up by the cop did not have it coming to him. The cop deserved to do priuson time for what he did, IMO.

The Rodney King case was iffy. Once they had him on the ground and no longer moving towards the police, it should have ended. Unfortunately, the cops stepped over the line there, too, and should have been punished for their crimes.

In this case, the guy attacked the cops. It looked to me like he continued to attempt attacks on the cops even while down, and as the autopsy has revealed, the drugs and the exertion of his attack on the cops had more to do with him dying than the beating possibly could have.

[Isome]

21. "had more to do with him dying than the beating possibly"

It did? That's what the autopsy report said? The fact that he was being beaten by batons didn't factor into the onset of his heart attack? Really? Do you have a link to that autopsy report?

Also, I still think it's great you admit to believing in beating an unarmed man, who is 400 lbs and looked as agile as a 400 lb man can possibly look (I saw the tape too) is okay to do. Congratulations! :-)

[Jesus H. Christ]

23. When you beat somebody up and they die

due to an unusual medical condition that's still manslaughter.

[Walt Starr]

38. Nope, not when it's self defense

Look at the tape, this guy continually attacked the cops even as they defended themselves with their batons (contrary to some posts here, no rifle butts were used). They told the guy repeatedly to get back when he began his attack and to put his hands behind his back when they got him down. He continued to resist.

The preliminary autopsy reports say there was no blunt trauma to internal organs as a result of the baton strikes. It was just reported on MSNBC.

In essence, this man killed himself with PCP and cocaine.

Thjis should be ruled a suicide.

[DrWeird]

40. Look like self-defense to me too.

As in the black guy was trying to defend himself from being beaten to death by several club wielding thugs.

[Walt Starr]

41. The cops did everything they could to avoid this

The asshole left them with no choice.

I am 100% behind the cops on this one. The attacker got what he deserved. He attacked the cops, they defended themselves and subdued the guy.

This man committed suicide via a drug overdose for his physical condition.

[DrWeird]

43. dupe

nt

[Walt Starr]

45. He continued to resist

Listen to the tape, repeatedly he is told to put his hands behind his back.

I will be foursquare against any organization with the gall to defend this man's actions.

He attacked the cops and resisted. He got precisely what he deserved.

[DrWeird]

47. I'd resist to if I were being beaten to death.

Going from questionable use of force to "getting what he deserves" is quite a leap. Now cops can be judge, jury, and executioner too? So much for the constitution.

[Walt Starr]

51. They did not execute him

He died because of a heart attack. His heart was too large. He had PCP and coke in his system. He over exerted himself while attacking cops, an attack I might add that came before any blow was ever made and while the cops repeatedly told him to "GET BACK".

He chose his own end. He is deserving of nothing more than the Darwin Award.

[Jesus H. Christ]

58. Yeah, they did.

He would have died if they hadn't beaten him.

[Walt Starr]

59. Nope sorry

I cannot respect anybody who defends Mr. Darwin Award. He committed suicide, IMO.

[Jesus H. Christ]

61. I can't respect anybody who apologizes for police brutality.

nt

[Walt Starr]

62. The case where the cop punched the kid in California was police brutality

This is a case where the cops would have been justified pulling their guns and firing.

[DrWeird]

44. No they didn't.

They outnumbered him. When he was down and on the ground they could have cuffed him and restrained him physically. Instead they kept beating him. If four large black men had been beating a white cop to death I doubt you'd call it self-defense.

[Isome]

140. trying to defend himself from being beaten to death ....

That's what it looked like to me. But you know how that is... ;-)

[Isome]

69. Yeah... equal force too...

I see a big, unarmed, lumbering man, moving in practical live "slow-mo", and at least two police officers beating the shit out of him with those batons (don't know WHAT they're made of). They should probably stop hiring cowardly men to be police.

[Walt Starr]

70. I see a huge man landing blows on cops

and the cops reacting in a calm and professional manner.

Batons are made of wood.

These cops would have been justified firing upon this man, professionals that they are, they attempted using non-lethal techniques. They had no way of knowing the guy took too much cocaine and PCP for his enlarged heart to take the stress of the exertion his attacks put on it.

The baton blows had nothing to do with the death per the preliminary autopsy report.

[Isome]

194. Noooooooo...

They have metal nightsticks. You mistakenly missed that in all your reading up on the case... like you did about him being a cocaine addict.

[Walt Starr]

36. Six cops to subdue a 400 lb man tanked up on coke and PCP

He got what he deserved. He attacked cops.

[Isome]

147. And who are cops exactly? GODS?

Or men in positions that have a responsibility to the public, to protect and serve... not beat the shit out of...

[Walt Starr]

153. Dude, goodbye

I'm through. If this becomes a case about race, then I've lost all respect for any organization that takes it up.

He assaulted the cops. They reacted appropriately. Nothing more could be done.

If you want to raise this guy up as the poster child about police brutality, you're fucking barking u the wrong tree and will only do harm to those who really suffer police brutality.

This guy brought every blow upon himself through his own criminal actions. I weep not for the asshole. He brought it upon himself.

[Isome]

164. Dude, backatcha'!!

That particular post had nothing in it regarding race. Apparently it is you who is barking up the wrong tree —uhhh, make that post.

[Isome]

17. Good for you...

You're someone I'll never see going all hypocritical when it happens to someone else.

[Walt Starr]

48. I would have chosen "The Asshole deserves the Darwin Award"

but you didn't offer that choice.

[Booberdawg]

7. Having watched the tape now, it did not appear excessive to me

The beginnging of the tape shows the 400 pound man attacking the police, and then they tackled him to the ground. Several times they asked him to put his hands behind his back and he kept fighting it and would not cooperate. I didn't see any head blows - I saw all blows to the back and trying to keep him down.

What are the police supposed to do with a 400 pound man that attacks them and won't cooperate?

on edit: saw in LBN that Coroner ruled heart attack. Enlarged heart, hypertension. Cocaine and PCP in system.

[Robin Hood]

9. There are ways to confront and subdue an individual without violence.

Tasers, keeping your distance but corraling the individual until enough force is present to take person down in one swoop. I worked in a psychiatric hospital for many years and did take downs on the average of a couple of times a shift.

There were many people that I had to take down that were huge, and I'm a big guy as well. i had been hit and even bitten. but I had never had to result to beating these people into submission. What these cops did would have sent me to jail, and rightly so.

[jarab]

25. Agree with you

And, additionally, all the videotapes I've seen obscured the targets of many of the blows (all we see are batons being leveled downwards)..
Too much force against an overweight man whose only weapons were his slow-motion, huge and lumbering body parts. I "thought" equal force was generally supposed to be levied against another who was attacking one. As it now stands, I'll be able to use my baton on any large and menacing person.
I'm supposed to call the law (for help), but the law isn't obliged to seek assistance under the same circumstances.
I'd suggest some more physical training for these troopers, too.
But, never mind, I'm against the death penalty - before or after the trial.
jmho
...O...

[Booberdawg]

27. But he attacked them

A 400 pound man attacked them. I'm sorry, but I don't agree that it would have been appropriate to take time out to do a psych analysis while they were getting attacked before taking him down at that point. He resisted and fought with them - they are allowed to use force within guidelines to subdue him. The blows I could see were to his back.

And what is considered appropriate use of force for suspects and potential criminals vs psychiatric patients are entirely separate issues.

What's unfortunate is that it sounds like he may have been high on PCP and cocaine, and perhaps that had something to do with his bizarre behavior that brought this on.

[Walt Starr]

65. There's the rub. The instant this asshole attacked the police,...

HE escalated the event. If the cops felt their lives were threatened at that point they could have pulled their guns and fired upon the man.

These cops were consumate professionals. They chose the course least likely to result in a lethal confrontation. They tried to keep this from getting worse except Mr. Darwin Award continued to resist.

Mr. Darwin Award committed suicide.

[Nlighten1]

19. where is a link to the beating?

I haven't seen it yet.

TIA

[Robin Hood]

8. Wolf just said, Coke, PCP, and an enlarged heart is what killed him.

Funny how all of those violent baton jabs didn't seem to play into the coroners deduction.

[Walt Starr]

14. Coke and PCP would explain why the guy could not be easily subdued

Also, combining those drugs with an oversized heart and extreme obesity would make a heart attack inevitable with the amount of exertion he put into his attack on the cops.

[Catherine Vincent]

11. I voted it was clearly too much force.

Especially that one cop that kept giving the blows. He looked like he enjoyed that just a bit too much. I feel for the dead man's family and for those cops. Some of them have problems if you ask me.

[1songbird]

20. I live here in Cincy and this does not pass the smell test.

The Cincinnati police have killed so many black men over the past 10 years that this is no longer shocking. There are some serious questions that must be asked. One of the problems that I have with this story is that locally there has been absolutely no mention of what drugs if any were in the victim's system. Infact they have not finished the toxicology report. I find it interesting that CNN and other sources are reporting that he had coke and PCP in his system. This was not in the coroner's initial report. If he did I suspect that this would have been broadcast repeatedly locally. Hmmmmm.

Secondly the initial call was made to 911 because of a medical issue when the gentleman passed out. Medical help arrived and during the process the suspect must have become unruly and the police was called. Police agree that the officers used permittable force and did not violate the rules, however an ex-police chief says that it is a moral question and some responsibility falls on the officers. In this city police are more likely to use deadly force with African Americans and there needs to be something done to address this.

We know that the victim suffered from occasional blackouts according to family members that have called the local radio station. He also had high blood pressure and heart problems. To me this is a case where once again the dispatcher and the police were not in sync. When Timothy Thomas was killed by officer Steven Roach, we had a situation where the information about the suspects record was not given or was inaccurate. I think if the officer had known that Timothy had misdemeanor traffic warrants only he would not have been shot. I think there is a similar situation brewing here. The police procedure has to be reviewed.

[Hubert Flottz]

26. Get those guys a brown shirt!

The way the officer beat the guy with the end of the weapon it looked like to me the officer was out of control and didn't care if he was killing the guy they already had on the ground! Maybe rage over getting pushed by the guy they were arresting was the officer's reason to try and kill someone! It looked to me like the Officer was not serving and protecting!

[Nlighten1]

24. It was unfortunate (film link here)

http://www.channelcincinnati.com/news/2673984/detail.html

the police did what they had to do to subdue him. It was fucking awful to watch though. I can't help but feel the irony that the advertisement for the first video was for a heart health.

The thing that I wonder about after watching the two unedited videos is the officer who came in last and pulled his baton out, knelt at the suspects head in front of the car. I couldn't see what he was doing but if I was a betting man I would say he used that baton to apply force to this man's throat.

Shortly after he kneels down you can hear the suspect saying "help" very weakly and after that he isn't seen breathing again.

So maybe the jury is still out.

[Booberdawg]

28. If it's the one I saw on MSNBC, I thought he was spraying pepper spray

he pulled it out of his pocket and you could hear him say he was going to use it. So, it seems he was simply trying to put an end to the incident,

[salin]

30. also odd is about 3/4 the way through the first tape

the emergency crew drives off ... then at th beginning of the second tape, they start trying to administer to the guy (noting that he didn't appear to be breathing, but that there was a pulse) - and the wonder aloud - where the emergency crew (truck?) went. Did it leave? Why? If it did leave, would having been there a few minutes later (when the guy was subdued, and they noticed that he didn't appear to be breathing) would it have made a difference?

[Nlighten1]

31. see my other post about the odd thing

I'm sure it was an honest mistake that the emergency crew left the scene. What wasn't so honest though is that after the police dogpile on this guy he wasn't breathing. Is that excessive force?

[salin]

34. put the two questions together

would they drive off, if there was a question about the guy being okay and not in a health crisis? So could that have been the case when they drove off?

Hard to tell what when on when they were beneath the view of the car. But something went wrong. What.

Have to admit - at the beginning of the tape the guy in question - looked pretty frightening. But does that make all that followed the only option? Can't things start out quasi legitimately and then go real wrong? Have to say though, with out full view this is all speculation. Really hard to say.

[Nlighten1]

50. I agree.

It looks like too much force there at the end. Well, in a few more years we will have much more sophisticated technology to film these events with. In the mean time we should be working to improve and promote non-lethal weapons as a means for subduing citizens.

This may or may not have been race related but really this guy was an everyman. It could be one of us tomorrow at a protest.

[qanda]

190. From the tape....

It shows that the police officers stood there and let that man die after they knew he wasn't breathing-- THAT IS A CRIME!!!!!!

[Booberdawg]

193. Where did you see that in the tape?

I checked the link you responded to and didn't see anything like that, nor did I see what you described in the clip I saw on MSNBC either.

[Nlighten1]

29. timeline for something odd

6:01:21 officer enters from the right and pulls out a can of pepper spray

6:01:27 walks in front of suspect and yells "Pepper!"

6:01:39 same officer begins to walk behind other officers and pulls out his baton.

6:01:41 officer walks in front of police vehicle positioning the baton in front of himself and aligning it with the suspect

6:01:44 it is impossible to tell where this officer placed his baton but given the spot where he knelt down this could be the area where the suspects neck would be.


6:01:58 suspect makes muffled cry for help.


suspect not seen breathing after this and in the second movie it shows the paramedics doing CPR on him

[Terwilliger]

42. Why is it that tasers can be used on political protestors, but not drunks?

This man should not have died.

[Walt Starr]

55. He wasn't a "drunk", he was a cokehead on PCP

Tasers are not standard issue items in most precincts.

[Isome]

71. It's nice to be courageous about your beliefs...

But, you don't know if he was addicted to anything.

"Meanwhile, Janke said it will be the responsibility of the Hamilton County Coroner's Office to determine what caused Jones' death and that police cannot say when that answer will come. But the coroner generally takes one to three days in these kinds of cases, Janke said.

Police would not say if Jones appeared to be under the influence of drugs, but Janke said the department expects the coroner to perform toxicology reports on Jones."

Cincinnati hasn't performed, or reported, the toxicology test results yet. It may be easier to believe he was a cokehead (that way you can assure yourself it would never happen to you or someone you know), but you don't know it. To say that you do is a lie.

[Walt Starr]

72. He had coke and PCP in his system

I said nothing about addiction. One can be a cokehead and not be addicted to the substance.

[Isome]

167. Cokehead = addicted

You know that.

[Terwilliger]

73. it seems a taser might have prevented this death

the analysis found traces of PCP and cocaine because if they hadn't there would be a riot

[Walt Starr]

74. So you think this is a fake autopsy?

Even if there wasn't anything in his system, he still attacked the cops.

Are tasers standard issue equipment in Cincinnati? I don't know but you sound like an expert.

Most precincts won't allow tasers even if the cops buy them. With this guy's oversized heart, a taser could have been lethal too.

[Terwilliger]

99. he attacked the cops so they can beat on him now?

the slogan is NOT To Serve and Protect Myself

Cops are there to restore order...NOT to become judge, jury, and executioner.

[Walt Starr]

108. Yes,as soon as he attacked the cop they could freely use batons

As soon as he attacked the cops, he was open for being killed.

He's the fucking criminal in this. The cops all deserve medals.

[Isome]

196. No, it's a PRELIMINARY autopsy -

as in not final. Despite your repeated recitation of the preliminary findings, nothing found has been ruled definitive.

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

229. Given his heart condition...

A taser might have killed him anyway.

Every police officer has the right to go home from his shift safe and sound. If a suspect chooses to fight with the police, that suspect is going to get beat down. Every damned time. I have absolutely no sympathy for somebody who chooses to get his skull cracked, and even less sympathy for people (not necessarily you, Terwilliger) who try to make a racial issue out of it.

You take a swing at a cop, you're going to get stomped.
You pull a gun on a cop, you're going to get killed.

Them's the rules, folks. Live by them.

[Eric J in MN]

52. The police should have stepped a few feet away and let

The police should have stepped a few feet away and let the situation de-escalate.

Instead they were clubbing him once-per-second while telling him to put his hands behind his back.

Apparently he was too disoriented or frightened to do so.

Once he was down, they should have stepped a few feet away and told him to stay still while they waited for more police to arrive, who could have completed the arrest without clubbing him again.

[Nlighten1]

56. I agree.

This should have been what happened if cooler heads were there.

[Walt Starr]

57. Preliminary autopsy results say the blows had nothing to do with his death

He gets my vote for the Darwin Award for 2003.

[Eric J in MN]

75. I'm skeptical that there was no connection between his death

I'm skeptical that there was no connection between his death and his being pepper-sprayed and clubbed-once-per-second shortly before.

[Walt Starr]

76. I haven't heard anything about the pepper spray in autopsy reports

It could have had an effect.

At this time, all indications are the blows had no effect.

I say the root cause of death here was stupidity. IMO, this was a case of suicide, whether intentional or not.

[salin]

78. er... by definition

doesn't suicide require 'intent'? Otherwise it is an accident or worse.

[Walt Starr]

79. Most successful suicides are unintentional

The "intent" in most attempted suicides is to get attention.

Occasaionally, this results in successfully committing suicide.

[salin]

111. then it isn't suicide it is an accident.

suicide is the act (there for intentional) of killing oneself.

[Walt Starr]

113. The death certificate will still read "suicide" n/t

[Eric J in MN]

91. Don't you think the stress of being pepper-sprayed and repeatedly clubbed

Don't you think the stress of being pepper-sprayed and repeatedly clubbed can kill a man with a bad heart?

An autopsy report isn't the only perspective on what happened.

[Walt Starr]

97. The baton blows have already been ruled out

I'll wait for the final autopsy report before deciding on the pepper spray.

Even if a single baton blow killed the man instantly, it was justified. He attacked the cops.

[Eric J in MN]

188. Why not have a little sympathy. It could have been handled better. nt

nt

[solinvictus]

98. Pepper spray

The man was on PCP and cocaine. That combination means that he is essentially a raging bull and unlikely to respond to either reason or even physical restraint. Pepper spray and tasers are useless in these cases as the drug makes the assailant nearly invulnerable. In this case, it appears an already strained ticker did him in.

[SemperEadem]

233. well, duh--that's because the final autospy reports hasn't been filed

You can't have it both ways--you can't claim that the autopsy report says that he had pcp in his system and then turn around and say there was no pepper spray in autopsy reports when the final report has not even been issued.... Preliminary reports mean nothing because they have to adjust their findings in the final autopsy report once all of the tests come back.

Speculation does not equal the truth, no matter how rabidly you wish for it to be so.

[Fleshdancer]

60. Granted, this was clearly a stupid man who made stupid decisions

He was unarmed and the fact that he is dead is proof enough that the police went too far.

Would it be right if the dead man was instead your child?

[Walt Starr]

66. He chose to escalate by attacking the police

The moment he went on the attack, he was fair game to be shot dead on the spot. These cops were professionals and tried to keep this from being lethal.

If it was my kid, he would have been smart enough not to attack the police. There is no more lethal act in the world than attacking a cop because cops have guns and are allowed to use them when attacked.

[CWebster]

64. The thing that burns me up

is they keep letting these white thugs off.

Cininnati again.

[SmokeyBlues]

77. The reason being...

they serve a valuable purpose. Now let's start the healing process.

[Isome]

102. *lmao*

Healing, yes, we need to h-e-a-l! *lol*

Let the police go buck wild against some white people first though, at least 15 over the course of the next year. (Well, it wouldn't get that far before police officers' heads would be rolling... but just supposin' for a moment...) One of 'em has to be shot 19 times while standing in his own doorway, sans a weapon; and a female has to be shot in her car, while sleeping or passed out with a gun in her lap... instead of hold up in her car waving a gun around, while California traffic is stopped for two hours while the police talk her down to a peaceful resolution (you remember that nutty woman). All the rest have to be unarmed, many shot in the back (maybe one shot in the back WHILE handcuffed) and if guilty of anything, it has to be some picayune thing like driving with a suspended license, or like this latest victim, big scary guy that he is, guilty of public trespass. Oh' wait, another woman (senior citizen) has to keel over dead of a heart attack after the police mistakenly bust in her door and handcuff her in her own kitchen. Yep, that oughta' create a hue & a cry.

There's enough death to spread around.

[newyorican]

171. That *is* funny...

You all go on an' heal up real good now. So's you'll be ready fo' yo' next ass-whuppin'...

Such good advice. There might be another answer...since so much of this seems to be about who has a gun...

[SmokeyBlues]

189. Please stop coddling the bad guys!

Anyway, 5'6" 400 pounds or 6'3" 275 pounds or 5'10" 180 pounds and in plain clothes responding to a call, it's all the same for some folks. And don't forget the demon drugs that had him acting peculiar.

One question: at 5'6" 400 pounds and presumably not in the best of shape as shown in the video, how far do you think the deceased could have gotten by the time sufficient backup arrived? Couple of miles you think? Wasn't he lying face down in a parking lot on conscious just a few minutes before the police arrived?

Word is out that he was a speedy 5'6" 400 pounds. Lithe and agile. Able to float on his toes like Muhammad Ali.

And are we are to believe the two officers could not have accessed the threat level and then called for additional backup? Is it not possible that more officers on the scene could have greatly reduced the need for excessive force?

Oh yeah. I forgot. The deceased was a big man: 5'6" 400 pounds of fighting machine and largely incoherent. If only he had stayed down there would have been no need for the beating to continue. Perhaps I missed something, but I don't recall seeing the decease rising fully to his feet after he went down to the ground.

As for taking a punch at the officers, I've seen more aggressive and hostile 'participants' on the show Cops. Luckily, they are still alive.

I just don't see where the threat was to justify the use of excessive force.

[Isome]

195. "he was a speedy 5'6" 400 pounds..."

That's the word huh'? *snicker* You're a funny guy!

I bet if they had jumped out of his way and allowed him to lumber on down the road, they could have drank a cup of coffee, wolfed down a piece of holiday pie, and STILL had enough time to catch up with him one block away from the restaurant.

[CWebster]

208. You mean like gestapo?

"Now let's start the healing process."

In other words, just let's get past this and move along...nothing to see here....AGAIN!

[solinvictus]

80. Nathaniel Jones

So a 400lb coke and PCP addled psychopath is the newest anti-police poster boy? Grow up! With his physique, he was asking for death by abusing those drugs. HE charged at the police and escalated the situation, the police only reacted to his actions.

[Walt Starr]

81. Welcome to the thread

Glad to see I'm not alone.

[vdeputy]

85. I voted that it was justified force

I work in law enforcement and have seen struggles many times with people with coke and/or PCP in their systems. They can be impossible to control and deadly to those trying to take them into custody - pcp and meth especially give people almost super-human power. Most rational people can be controlled by a certain amount of pain but those substances cause people not to feel pain. The cops I know try to do it the least hurtful way but you have the right not to have to get hurt yourself in following a court order to take someone into custody. If you've never been in that position, you just can't understand what it is like.

[Walt Starr]

88. Thank you for your service

I consider the cops who took this man down to have been very brave. My only experience with these sorts of situations are military related. Under identical circumstances, my training would say draw my weapon and put the man down. I was trained for combat, not law enforcement.

I am glad there are professionals like the men who dealt with this guy. They deserve a vote of confidence from everybody. They could have easily become convinced they were in mortal danger, drawn their service revolvers, and fired. They chose the path of lowest lethality, IMO.

[ecstatic]

87. Typical murder of a black man by police

This type of thing happens a lot more often than some would want to believe. I've watched several "outrageous video" clips that feature white boys yelling and acting violent but for some odd reason they're never shot dead with the excuse that they "had it coming."

[solinvictus]

92. Shot?!?!

He wasn't shot, it appears likely that he died from being 400lbs and abusing drugs while deciding to take on the Cincinatti PD in a hand-to-hand fight. Please, before you start issuing blame based on race, get your basic facts straight.

[Isome]

169. Read much...

That post you reponded to referred to others who were shot, not the subject of this thread.

[Walt Starr]

94. I've seen a white man nearly fired upon by two sherriff's deputies

in a fight outside of a bar.

He attacked three cops successfully. Another four joined the melee. Two stepped back and pulled their service revolvers.

He was smart. He gave up. The guy in this video attacked the cops, refused to give up, and kept fighting all the way.

[Terwilliger]

100. have you seen a white man beaten to death by the cops?

anywhere?

[ecstatic]

103. As a follow-up to your question

If there have been no cases of white man beaten to death by cops, does that mean that only black and hispanic men defy police orders? Do white guys always follow and do everything the police tell them too?

[Walt Starr]

105. This guy was not beaten to death

He was high on coke and PCP, over exerted himself, and his enlarged ticker gave out.

He was not beaten to death.

[solinvictus]

107. Yep

Birmingham, AL about 1993-94. A white man was detained for drunken/disorderly, had the crap beaten out of him by cops, and later died in his cell while being watched on closed circuit monitor. The city dodged the hell out of his family because he was essentially killed for public intox.

[Isome]

115. One... that's not enough...

e o m

[Walt Starr]

116. The reason you don't hear about white men being killed by cops is

nobody raises the "race card".

Granted, racism comes into play in many cases where suspects are killed by cops.

That was not the case in this event. This was a criminal who attacked cops. He got what he deserved.

[Isome]

133. *lol*

Who would have thought YOU would use that nonsensical phrase? *lmao*

Yeah, they get their asses killed and sodomized and beaten all the time. They just don't say anything! *lol* What did I say about all that lying!

[Walt Starr]

146. It's not that they don't say anything

It's that it doesn't end up on national news because there is no "race card" being played.

[ecstatic]

157. That comment was tinged with prejudice and the "R" word

that you guys are so frightened of. Blacks don't play the "race card" my friend. If there was no racism in America, then this so called "race card" would be a nonissue. Getting beaten or shot to death for a misdemeanor due to racial profiling transcends a "race card" and only makes it clear that racism is still a major problem in this country.

[Walt Starr]

161. The media plays the "race card"

some posters on this board notwithstanding.

[ecstatic]

172. There is no "race card"

There ARE, however, major discrepancies and disparities in treatment due to race and these disparities must be continually and forcefully addressed until they disappear and race is no longer a factor in fair treatment.

[Walt Starr]

That may be true in other cases

It was not the case here. This was about a man assaulting law enforcement officers and those officers reacting in an appropriate and highly professional manner.

[Forkboy]

192. "He got what he deserved"

:puke:

[ecstatic]

101. A black man wouldn't have gotten that far and you know it

He would have been shot dead the moment he attacked the first cop (or even if he decided to pull out his wallet to show ID too soon).

[Walt Starr]

106. Where I saw this, no way

White red necks give cops much more trouble than any minority in Cheyenne, Wyoming. The two deputies were ready to fire, but the guy dropped to his knees and put his hands behind his head as soon as the service revolvers were pulled.

If Mr. Darwin Award had done the same thing, he'd probably be alive today depending upon the cocaine and PCP levels in his blood stream.

[Isome]

117. Darwin Awards are funny...

This isn't funny in the least. The man was obviously not well. Ooops, I forgot my role... yeah, he should be dead for public trespass. After the autopsy, they should take his big ass out and beat him again on general principle.

[Walt Starr]

118. He died for his own stupidity

Attacking cops is completely stupid.

He deserved what he got for assaulting cops.

[Isome]

127. Hey, I like that repetition thing you got going...

dead, deserved it, dead, deserved it, dead, deserved it...

It works like a charm on school children too!

[Walt Starr]

128. When I see the repetition on this thread

there's no other recourse but to continue repeating the truth about this matter.

Race had no bearing in this whatsoever. It was an idiot stoned on concaine and PCP who over exerted his oversized heart while assaulting police officers.

No amount of race baiting will change the facts. The cops acted appropriately.

[Isome]

166. Oh' really... race baiting...

What is that? Mentioning race when white people don't want to hear it?! *lol*

[ecstatic]

89. WHY did they stop him in the first place?

Is this another example of racial profiling turned bad?

[Walt Starr]

90. He was asleep in front of a White Castle restaurant

The restaurant called the police and requested he be removed.

[1songbird]

129. You seem to have formed your opinion

but let me throw a fly in the ointment. It has been reported locally by the ACLU and a respected 20 year police official that approximately a minute and a half of tape is missing. These officials have viewed the entire tape unlike the public. The tape starts with the victim seemingly calm and then there is a time lapse and the next scene is that of the defendant striking. The ACLU now wants to know what happened to the missing segment of tape. This story is not open and shut by a long shot.

[Walt Starr]

142. If there is 90 seconds missing

I'm open to altering my opinion in this case.

I'm only going by what I saw. The tape looked complete to me.

[1songbird]

152. Thanks, I intend to make updates as more information comes out.

[solinvictus]

95. And then...

When Nathaniel woke up, he spewed a line of epithets and charged at two police officers.

[evil_orange_cat]

110. you fight the police, you get what you deserve...

I saw the video, this was no Rodney King... this was a man out of control attacking the police. It sucks he died, but its his own damn fault.

[1songbird]

114. You would have to know the history of Cincy

to form a fair opinion.

[Walt Starr]

119. History or not, assaulting law enforcement officers is stupid

He assaulted a cop. He got precisely what he asked for.

The six cops deserve medals for bravery.

[Isome]

126. Being a Black male...

in the wrong place at the wrong time is stupid. That's enough to warrant the celebration of your death. Cheers everyone! One less public trespasser off our beautiful streets! *woo hoo*

[Walt Starr]

130. If he had not assaulted the officers

or had he decided to put his hands behind his back as he was ordered to do, he would probably be alive today.

That is, if the cocaine and PCP were not already close to killing him any way.

edited to add:Yes, I'm glad somebody who would assault cops is off the street.

[evil_orange_cat]

131. and OJ was innocent right? pfft.

gimme a break ::rolleyes::

[Booberdawg]

136. Oh God! Let's not get started on OJ!

[Isome]

139. O.J. was innocent?!

I didn't know that. Do you have a link? I knew he was acquitted, but I didn't know he was found innocent. Damn, will wonders never cease.

[1songbird]

145. No history is extremely relevant because

if you don't know history you're bound to repeat it. There have been claims of victims being on coke and PCP here before in other cases where the cops have beaten citizens to death. Just two years ago when Roger Owensby was killed it was claimed that he was on drugs as well. An independent coroners report proved that this was not the case. With a portion of the tape missing we don't know what made the victim react violently. A dog will bite the hand of its master if its hurt. Have an open mind to information because things aren't always black and white.

[Walt Starr]

155. I don't buy it

I do not believe everything said by either side. Both have lied.

I'm going by what I saw. I saw a 400 lb. man assault police officers and continue to resist. I saw officers reating with a high degree of professionalism in the least lethal manner.

The guy was a fool. Never assault a cop. When you do so, you have given the cop a license to kill you.

[Solomon]

132. What this case is vividly showing, is the physical version of the

subtle insidious racism that occurs in all aspects of system. For a lot of whites (don't flame me, I didn't say all whites), a reason to attack or criticize a black person, becomes an excuse to vent bigotry, and racism, sometimes unconsciously, sometimes consciously. I've noticed it in other areas, black entertainers, athletes, whatever, when they get in trouble people feel free to dump all the venom they can because it's not "racism". In other words, since we have a reason to beat this guy, let's go ahead and beat the shit out of him and nobody can say it was because of race.

I see people gearing up for the Kobe and Jackson trials the same way. The media makes it seem as though it would be politically incorrect to NOT convict the guy. As though, they are getting such a break because they are celebrities, it would be wrong to not convict them. They did wrong, so we can let loose all the pent up frustrations without being bigots. No way you can prove to me a white suspect would have been charged under the circumstances in Kobe's case. But with Kobe, there's extra pressure. If we don't charge him, people will say we let another celebrity go. As far as Jackson, when all that catholic priest abuse stuff came out, nobody went to change the law to make children testify, or to cry about the payments the church made to settle cases. Nope. Not a word. But of course, it would politically incorrect NOT to do it for Jackson. By the way, how do you force a kid to testify if he doesn't want to? -- Lock him up? Strap him down and pull out his fingernails? What a stupid law. Any kid who wants to testify is free to do so, but the new law would attempt to force someone to do so when it may not be in the person's best interest. It's ridiculous.

When I start seeing videos of white men beaten to death, and of course my all time pet peeve, which is white guys always getting arrested without incident, even when it's KNOWN THEY ARE ARMED, and even after some of them have already shot someone, as opposed to the many many UNARMED black men killed by police, -- then maybe I might sing a different tune. More times than not, the only time a white guy gets shot, is when he shoots himself.

I voted for the "Clearly excessive force - suspend the cops". Sure they had a reason to hit the guy. But no reason to beat him to death.
And for those of you who try and take it further by saying he was still resisting the cops, you need to think about what your natural reaction to getting pounded by sticks would cause you to do. I can just imagine how easy it would be for someone to get me to hold my arms behind my back while getting the shit beat out of me with sticks. Its a natural reaction to try and ward off the blows.

Lastly, anyone who thinks Rodney King was "iffy", has a sincere case of subconscious bias. Apparently people still don't uderstand the rage that that case engendered. Why LA went up in flames. The frustration with putting up with these fucking beatings and killings, and EVEN WHEN YOU CATCH THE DAMN THING ON VIDEO, people still want to fucking argue. Always some reason why it's okay to kill a black man.

Less people think things have gotten better. Let me say this. It used to be that cops would go through lengths to plant guns to justify killing a black person. That's degenerated now to just saying he had a wallet, or he had a cell phone in his hand. Oh yeah. Everybody understands that. That explains it.

It's pathetic. We get no fucking respect.

[Walt Starr]

138. The Rodney King case was iffy

all the way up to the point where they had him subdued.

Watch the tape. There was a point in the incident where, if there was no further blows from the cops, they would have been 100% justified.

Three cops crossed the line into brutality on that tape, but up to that point, the incident was by the book.

[Solomon]

143. "If there was no further blows"

Sheeessh. If a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass ahoppin. You guys really take the cake. You twist and turn and come up with anything you can, even a "if there was no further blows".

It's sad.

[Walt Starr]

149. I'm going off the tape

There was justified force used in the beginning of the event. King was drunk and did make threatening moves. The ploice acted by the book.

Then three cops started going off after King had been subdued. That crossed the line into police brutality. At that point, three cops broke the law.

[Booberdawg]

150. Therefore, after "the point where they had him subdued"

where there should have been no further blows, and the three cops crossed the line into brutality, it DID become use of excessive force. Thus unjustified. Right?

[Walt Starr]

154. Exactly

It was iffy because for a time, the force used was justified.

The defense for the cops were able to raise reasonable doubt in a jury because for a time, the blows were justifiable under the law. The prosecution apparently didn't do their homework or just plain didn't care.

If it had been a case where from the first blow landed, it was clearly across the line, convictions of the three cops would have been slam dunks.

In the current case, I see no point where any line was crossed by the cops. The suspect crossed the line by assaulting cops. Regardless of anything else, once the cops were assaulted, the were justified in the subsequent actions until the suspect was subdued. Based upon my observation of the tape, the suspect was not subdued while blows were being landed.

[Booberdawg]

144. They did not beat him to death

Cause of death was heart attack and enlarged heart - cocaine and PCP in his system.

One point I can agree with in your post is about the Rodney King beating. That was CLEARLY excessive. I was stunned, and horrifed when that verdict was announced.

[Isome]

160. Forget it Solomon, it won't happen.

Too many white people lack the ability to empathize with anyone who doesn't share the same skin color, whether they be American or not.

Now you, being non-white and everything, should ALWAYS empathize with whites, or put yourself in THEIR shoes and validate their actions or attitudes, but the reverse isn't to be expected.

Yeah, I know, I'm preaching to the choir.

[Solomon]

185. Isome. I know I irritate them but I gotta keep at it until

they open there eyes and see. All of them won't. Some of them will. If I can just get them to think about if even if they don't see it, then okay. I understand why.

[Fescue4u]

135. Looks justified

This is a local event for me. I just watched the video and that boy just refused to be reasonable.

The cops must have asked him 100 times to "put your hands behind your back" The first 2 cops were visibly struggling to stay on top on the situation.

If that guy had landed on top of either cop, he could have easily killed one of them.

Plus it turns out he was hopped up on PCP, the end result was of the perps design.

oh well.

[DU_Pushed_Me_Away]

141. Justified

Extremely unfortunate someone had to lose their life. My heart goes out to the man's family.

But the cops did nothing wrong.

[Solomon]

148. "that boy just refused to be reasonable"

And another "if". Says it all. Pathetic.

[Walt Starr]

151. There's only one "if" in this case

If the asshole had not assaulted the cops, he would probably be alive today.

[Solomon]

156. You guys are the ones with the "ifs".

Again you don't even realize you are making my point. I guess only black guys assault the cops. White guys don't. That's why they don't have to worry about the "ifs".

I doubt society would accept a blanket rule that the cops have a right to kill you if you assault them. But we have accepted the unspoken rule that the cops have a right to kill if a black man assaults them.

[Walt Starr]

158. White guys assault cops and white guys get the same treatment

The national media won't pick up the story because there is no "race" angle.

White guys are even *GASP* shot dead by cops.

Tell me, how many people at the Waco compound were black? How many people in Randy Weaver's cain were black? Those are two cases which made national media attention.

Most times when a white guy is shot dead by cops, it'll never ever make the national news.

This case is about assaulting a police officer, not race, no matter how hard people try to make it about race.

[ecstatic]

162. Wrong again

Dude you are way out of touch with what actually goes on in this country. White guys have chance after chance to fck up with the cops. With black guys, if you mess up or even seem like you're going to mess up, you're DEAD!

[Walt Starr]

165. Oh bull shit!

I've seen white guys assault cops and I've seen cops take out batons and beat them.

I've read the stories about white criminals greeting cops at the door with a gun and being blown away.

If a white guy pulled this same shit with a cop, the same thing would have happened. If that white guy was 400 lbs. with high blood pressure and enlarged hear, and drugs in his system, he would have died the same way.

This is not about race. It is about assaulting law enforcement officers.

[Isome]

173. No, this isn't about race...

It's about police brutality against non-whites. True, true!

[Fescue4u]

170. The cops didnt kill him

He killed himself. Bad diet, coke, pcp, bad decisions.

They all lead to his own tragic, predestined end.

sad, but the suspect had more control of the situation than anyone else.

[tinanator]

202. no if about you

pos

[ecstatic]

159. that "boy"?

Umm... did you know that "boy" was 41 years old?

[Fescue4u]

168. I didnt see his birth certificate

I was guessing mid 30's.

[Isome]

174. It comes out at the damnest times doesn't it! n/t

[Fescue4u]

177. What are you trying to imply?

(yes, Im setting you up)

[Isome]

178. Imply...

I wasn't trying to imply a god damned thing. I said what I meant; no implications at all.

Instead of some lame set up of some kind, you should just say what you inferred from my comment to someone else.

[Fescue4u]

186. uh huh

Nice dodge ;)

[1songbird]

175. If you're local then

I assume you may have heard that a portion of the tape is missing. Roughly 90 seconds of footage. I also assume that you remember the Roger Owensby case? If you do then you will also remember the drug claims that proved to be untrue.

[Fescue4u]

176. Actually I didnt hear that

The portion I saw was on the local news and it was a good 2 minutes Id estimate.

The mission portion..was it the beginning or the end? What is alleged to have happened on the missing portion?

The part I saw was a violent man fighting the cops, and the cops repeatably requesting (quote polititely) to put his hands behind his back.

If the 90 minutes showed them wailing on him after being handcuffed, my opinion would change dramatically.

As to the drugs issue, that would be peripheral. The cops at the scene had no information about his blood content...only his behavior. The dead mans behavior was what I judged.

[1songbird]

179. Yes the ACLU wants to know

what happened to 90 seconds of tape that occured prior to Nathanial swinging at the officer. It was discussed on channel 9 just 15-20 minutes ago. The ACLU is upset because the portion of the tape that is missing occured right before Nathanial took the swing at the officer. I also heard Officer Scottie Johnson talking about this as well on the radio tonight. He has seen the entire tape. Ken Lawson has as well and he is enraged. According to Scottie the tape starts with a visual of Nathanial at White Castle. He's not engaged in violence. The tape skips forward 1 1/2 minutes and the first blow is swung at 6:00 by Nathanial. The time is recorded so there is no doubt that a portion of the tape is missing. What occured in those 90 seconds to make Nathanial react the way he did. Did he fear for his life? I think it is natural for humans to try and protect themselves if they fear for their lives. These are questions that must be answered in order to get to the truth.

[ultrafoil]

187. You should know.

"The part I saw was a violent man fighting the cops, and the cops repeatably requesting (quote polititely) to put his hands behind his back."

The reason you always hear them yelling that on COPS when the culprit already has a cops knee in his spine and a sweaty fist on his face is so they can charge said culprit (love that word) with resisting arrest.

Think about it.

[Booberdawg]

181. I'd like to see the other 90 seconds too

I am willing to change my position if there is anything before or after the footage I saw that casts a different light on the incident.

I did hear more relayed on the news a little bit ago that a local business initially made a call to 911 about the guy. The indication was that the police approached him for disorderly conduct.

[1songbird]

182. The 90 seconds has to be cleared up.

It leaves too much out there for open speculation.

The 911 call was made because Nathanial passed out. I believe the Police were called after the medical team arrived. It's not clear cut. There's just some things that don't make since.

[chaska]

180. Forgive me for not reading this thread. A couple of points though.

I have a friend who is as obese as the guy that died. I once helped him work on his car. This particular job required that my friend lay on the ground. The man was having a terrible time just managing to breathe. It was really quite scary to witness. Obesity of that level is very dangerous. And the guy in the video had other problems as well.

I don't really know how I feel about that whole incident, but I do question the use of nightsticks. I fail to see how a stick subdues anyone. Seems to me that beating someone will only cause a fight or flight reaction that is in neither case a good thing. I have another friend who used to work with at-risk youth (one of those wilderness programs - future thugs of America). When the kids would get crazy he was trained to literally just sit on them until they calmed down. Maybe the police could take a lesson here.

[1songbird]

184. No you can't let the CPD sit on folks here.

They don't seem to know when to stop piling on. This was the case in Roger Owensby's death here about two years ago.

[ultrafoil]

183. Poor baby six cops

I'm sure they were in fear of their lives, so they had to kill the fat guy.

Do you know what it feels like, what it does, when someone rams the end of a polycarbonate stick into your ribs with all their fear and anger?

I do.

Murdering *********.

[Loonman]

207. I watched the whole tape

The force was entirely justified, and the man recieved no internal injuries according to the coroner's statement.

Guy was hopped up on PCP and coke, and when you resist like that, the batons come out.

That's just the way it is.

[CWebster]

212. This is so contrived..

I saw enough of those cops bearing down on that black man to know that the beating was just another typical sampling of police brutality targeted at poor Blacks.. Ever notice that they ALWAYS claim that they "were all hopped up on PCP and coke".

That's just the way it is.

[Loonman]

213. Whatever

Gee, I didn't know he was poor, as if that has anything to do with anything, or are you just assuming?

Maybe he wasn't resisting, maybe he just wanted to give the cop a hug when he lunged at him.

Give me a fucking break.

[Nlighten1]

214. How did the cops know he was on PCP and coke?

Maybe they found out after he died but it could not have played a role in their initial decision to subdue him.

Sadly it reminds me of Monty Python, "how do you know she is a witch?"

[Isome]

239. "hopped up on PCP..."

"hopped up"... What year is this, 1955? What a convenient excuse for brutality, based on a preliminary autopsy finding. It didn't say that he was under the influence. Nonetheless, it provides a foolproof rationale for those looking to justify yet another beating and death of a Black man at the hands of police.

It's easy to ignore the fact that the man wasn't "sleeping", but was passed out prior to the EMT's arrival, and that he had a history of blackouts. It's easy to ignore that people who regain consciousness are sometimes combative because they're disoriented. Diabetics become disoriented & combative, those who suffer from seizures can awaken disoriented. A whole host of medical conditions cause disorientation and combativeness.

The man was 350-400 lbs; that's a big guy. He was also 5'6". That's a SHORT guy. There's big, as in 6'5", 300lbs, and then there's big, as in a fat ass who probably has trouble tying his shoes. But 400lbs is the favorite descriptor of the death cheerleaders because it elicits thoughts of strength, and possibly danger. The fact is, the man had medical problems and may have had a drug problem. While his medical & drug problems weren't known to police, the fact that he had been passed out prior to their arrival was known. His below average stature could be seen. His oversized gerth could be seen. His lack of agility WAS seen, it was on tape. To view that tape and conclude that the officers were in danger and couldn't have sidestepped his big, slow moving ass is indicative of a warped perception.

CDC reports that caucasian & Black Americans are almost equal in their drug use/abuse (caucasians a bit ahead), however, the image of an out of control, incoherent, violent Black American male is invariably foisted on the public as the personification of the results of drug abuse. Consequently, these preliminary findings (which again, make no determination as to whether he was under the influence—think of a drug test showing past drug use) are cited as indisputable evidence that this victim of police mob violence deserved death, because it's typical, it's predictable, it's to be expected.

The very popular Fox channel has a smorgasbord of shows about police chases and confrontations. On one of the episodes, a white woman refuses to stop after police signal for her to pull over. In a medium speed chase at night, the woman finally pulls over into her own driveway. She is described by the narrator as distraught and emotionally unstable.

The officers get out of their cars and are shouting at her to "freeze". She hurriedly & awkwardly gets out of her car, turns wildly toward them and thrusts her arm out in an upward motion, with an object in her hand. Because of the shadows of the night, the object is hard to see. It could be a gun, it's hard to tell, but her motions are certainly like those of someone pointing a gun. The officers are heard speaking in to each other in excited & serious tones. One says to the other not to shoot because he can't tell if what is in her hand is actually a gun.

Luckily for them it wasn't. Luckily for her, the officers weren't so afraid of a white woman (who refused to pull over and was clearly trying to provoke a violent response) that they wanted to shoot first and asked questions later.

The moral of the story is this: Black people watch t.v. too, ya' know. We see the NON-lethal responses by the police towards out of control white people, versus the LETHAL responses toward out of control and even those NOT out of control, non-white people. We know how we're treated, how our friends & acquaintances are treated and how people we don't know, but who share our ethnicity, are treated. We're not blind, but perhaps some white people in this thread are blind.

Selective consideration of the facts is the rule used by too many in cases like this.

[Padraig18]

211. I'm sorry he died, BUT...

... he was on PCP and cocaine; he also clearly resisted a lawful arrest. Having come of age in Chicago, there has never been the *slightest doubt* in my mind as to what the consequences are to the arrestee for resisting--- the police thump your ass until you stop resisting, Caucasian, Black, Asian, Latino or Martian.

A street corner is NOT the place to debate whether an arrest is lawful, or not; if a policeman tells you that you are under arrest, you had better turn around and put your hands behind your back, or suffer the consequences.

:shrug:

[opihimoimoi]

217. All the cops had to do was shoot the fool in both legs

then the fool lives and the cops are not killers, and the doctors get mo money.

[Padraig18]

218. They just finished discussing this on WGN-AM radio (Chicago)...

... and it re-affirmed my belief in common sense. Every caller, save two, who called in--- Black, Latino, Caucasian--- agreed that if you resist a lawful arrest, you buy a ticket to a Chicago 'beat down'. Everyone who called in was sorry that the man died, but only two out of about 40 were critical of the cops. Seems I'm not the only (former) Chicagoan who understands what happens when you resist arrest...

:shrug:

Edit:typo

[CWebster]

220. It simply amazes me that every SINGLE one of these

victims has been a black male beaten by a team of white males. And people just accept it as a matter of course, without question. If it was a white man being beathen by black cops, white America would be calling for blood.

How little things really change when it comes down to it.

[Padraig18]

221. Hmmm...

I live in a community that is virtually all Caucasian and Latino, and trust me, it happens when the person resisting arrest is Caucasian, too. "Dog bites man" doesn't boost TV ratings or make for good political fodder, while "Man bites dog" sells like hotcakes.

[Padraig18]

222. Dupe

Self-deleted... :wtf: happened?

[qanda]

230. I heard a revision earlier which said...

He *may* have had *trace* amounts of pcp and cocaine in his system. Sounds like a stretch to make this man seem guilty to me.

[Walt Starr]

219. I ADMIT IT, I WAS WRONG!!!!!

Until the 96 seconds of missing footage makes the light of day, I can only conclude that this suyspect was reacting in self defense to an assault by law enforcement officers.

At best, this was manslaughter. At worst, a felony murder conspiracy. Cops don't just "lose" 96 seconds of footage.

[Booberdawg]

223. What I will concede, since it is a recurring theme in this thread,

is that blacks in this country DO experience police beatings, use of excessive force, unjustifiable shake downs, etc., like whites do not. It is a FACT. And I don't mean to imply that I don't appreciate that fact nor empathize with those who have experienced such injustice.

I looked at this footage and made a judgement based on the facts I saw. A HUGE suspect attacking police officers and continuing to be combative as they tried to subdue him. A suspect that had cocaine and PCP in his system.

But, like you said, "Cops don't just "lose" 96 seconds of footage." Now I must withhold judgement until that "missing" footage sees the light of day.

[Isome]

227. Oh' gawwwd...

All yesterday you claimed to know all the details necessary to make an informed opinion and that you had read reports from multiple sources. In all of that reading that led to your unshakeable certainty, you never read about the missing 90 seconds of tape? You presumed everyone else was either crying for criminals or "playing the race card". Remarkable!

When more facts comes in, we'll see what other conclusions can be drawn.

[Walt Starr]

234. I apologize to you

I am sorry. I was unaware of the particulars surrounding the missing 96 seconds.

[noonwitch]

224. We went through this in Detroit, we just didn't have it on video

Malice Green had cocaine in his system when the police beat him to death with flashlights. The cops were still convicted. One did win his appeal and ended up with a manslaughter conviction and time served (which was about 4 years). The other, Nevers, lost his appeal, the 2nd degree murder conviction was upheld, and is currently dying of cancer in some federal prison. Budzyn, the officer that won his appeal, did not hit him very many times. He just lied for his partner on the stand, so I guess that 4 years was fair.

The key to convicting them was that EMS technicians witnessed the cops beating Green after they had cuffed him. They were good witnesses. The defense brought in a more sympathetic coronor from Oakland County (rich Detroit suburbs) who claimed that Green died from the cocaine in his system. The jury and most people didn't buy it. It would be interesting to see if a conviction would be possible now. After that case, the state republicans reorganized the court and made Detroit drop having a separate city court (a tradition from long before statehood)and merging into Wayne County's system. Instead of pulling jury pools and electing judges from the city of Detroit (80% black population), the court now is for the whole of Wayne County. The police officers involved had vast support from outside of the city for their actions. I've always thought that they were responsible, but so was the DPD for sending these guys out on the streets and for not providing better ways to subdue fighting arrestees. Now the DPD just shoot them, it's easier and they usually don't get in trouble for it. Just ask the family of the deaf man holding a rake that they shot a couple of years ago.

[opihimoimoi]

225. Like I said, all the cops had to do is use mace, or, failing all other

ordinary approaches, shoot the man in one leg and if it don work, then the other too.

The vision brings back memories of Monty Pythons Guardian of the Bridge when the knight chops off 2 arms and 2 legs and the guardian continues to fight back with biting. Nx time, shoot fools like this in the leg.

[ArkDem]

237. Unlike Monty Python, being shot in the leg with a big caliber

(or any caliber) handgun can easily be fatal (sever the femoral artery).

[durutti]

235. I don't know.

I'll have to wait until all the facts are in and evaluate both sides. It's too earlier to take a side now, I think.

[MISSDem]

236. He got what he deserved for being stupid.

When the police tell you to do something you do it. You do not try to help them or prevent them from doing anything. You stay out of their line of vision and don't call their attention to you. They are a necessary evil because they are all that stands between people who try to be law abiding and the scum-pus of the world. I am terrified of the police but also thankful for them.

[Goldenboy]

240. "He deserved what he got."

That is a really cold, cold comment. I'd like to hear you say that to the deceased's family.

In any case, he shouldn't have ended up dead.

[Isome]

241. It makes you wonder...

This is another human being who died, not a monster, not even a terrorist. Additionally, given his medical history, no one is yet sure if his passing out and coming to contributed to his behavior. But, most importantly, what about the part of the tape no one has seen? What about the parts of the tape that we have seen but were unclear because of the camera? What about watching one officer repeatedly, forcefully, and with apparent zeal, make those stabbing-like blows with the end of his metal nightstick?

People's fear is leading to the ruination of this country. It's fear that leads people to applaud the barbarity of police —fear they'll be harmed by someone who looks like the dead man in the videotape. It's fear that led the much of this country to applaud Chimpy following 9/11 —fear of "swarthy" foreigners marauding across the land at will— not realizing they had more to fear from the unfettered power they'd given to a white man who looks much like most of them. People have got to stop & think...