A Few Thoughts About Dean (or whoever) and The Draft

[stopbush]

As one who was entered in the draft lottery back in the 70s (I still have my selective service card to prove it), here's a few thoughts to keep in mind when you talk about the Vietnam-era draft:

1. Those who really *wanted* to go had a simple solution - enlistment. There was nothing stopping you, and you could enlist with any branch of the service if you wished. I know guys who went into the Coast Guard because it was safe (you wouldn't be sent to Nam) but you could do service if you wanted. I know a few who enlisted in the Navy. I didn't know anyone who enlisted in the Army - which just about guaranteed you a trip to Nam.

2. Anyone whose name was entered into the draft didn't want to go, period. If you wanted to go, you enlisted. You didn't wait around to get drafted. End of story. By definition, anyone who got entered into the draft started from a position of not wanting to go. Plenty were drafted, said little and went off to fight. Others looked for creative ways to be excluded, either on health or religious grounds (CO). Others fled to Canada. If your name was entered in the draft, you weren't a draft dodger - you went through the draft.

3. Back in the day, we high schoolers/college students were virulently anti-Nixon, anti-war, anti-government. We were proud of it. We marched. We protested. We did sit-ins. And yet, we still followed the law and submitted to the draft. We rolled the dice - some of us won, some of us lost. And if we lost, we ALL went to Plan B to try to stay out of Nam. Many of us succeeded legally, others fled, and others died.

Dean did nothing that any of us - and by us, I mean those of us who took our chances in the draft - didn't do.

This issue is a red herring. Worse, it's a red herring being promoted by chickenhawks who avoided military service to a like or greater extent than did Dean.

[Bombtrack]

1. like who?

He's the whitehouse's dream candidate

Kerry and Clark aren't pounding Dean with it, but when asked they did say that aspect of there person would greater help them to take on Bush than Dean. And they certainly aren't chickenhawks

[madfloridian]

2. I knew very few who wanted to go.

I remember a couple of fellow teachers who had a husband and a fiancee MIA or POW. I remember having interns who were dating guys were trying to get out of it.

I remember in my college classes in which it was the main topic of conversation....how not to go.

It was a very bad time. I think that his response tonight in any other era would suffice. In this time of the hatred from the rightwing, I am afraid they will never let up.

I could see the anger toward him from 3 of the questioners tonight.

[Bombtrack]

3. those who enlisted still deserve more respect than those who dodged

on the subject of Vietnam, not the overall character of the person.

I know there are people who might disagree with me about that, but probably 80 percent of the american public agree with me on this subject

[OrAnarch]

7. Then do we give up..

and pander to that 80% or do we teach them to stop being so damn stupid? :)


Politics or pollitics? (yes, that was lame and cheesy)

[AP]

13. At this stage, you still have a choice about who you nominate.

I think that's important to remember.

[Jacobin]

8. Would have to disagree with that

I dodged the draft in Vietnam and believe that it was better than going over and killing women and children who wanted us to go away.

Vietnam never attacked the U.S. We invaded it after the French got run out and killed millions of them. They killed 55,000 of us and we spent billions for absolutely nothing.

Dodging the draft was considered honorable at the time by perhaps half the population.

I'm proud I did my part to stop the bloodshed. I'm proud of my FBI file for protesting.

You may not be old enough to know what happened back then. Careful who you disparage with comments like that.

[AP]

14. If you ran for president, how would you deal with that in your bio?

Obviously, Dean didn't dodge the draft. However, I'm curious. If I had a criminal record involving a crime that, say involved a violation of fiduciary trust, I don't think I'd bother running for president even if I thought I'd make a great president.

I think it says a lot about what you think about yourself to not care aout having that in your bio and to still run for president. It might be good, it might be bad. I don't kinow. What do you think?

[Jacobin]

29. I don't have the qualifications or ambition to run

I think Dean handled it fine.

Clinton had the same issues and he won two elections.

The original post in this thread clarifies the astroturf being spewed about Dean tonight.

[CWebster]

17. The same people who treated the vets like shit when they came home

a generation of lost men, filling out the ranks of the homeless, addicted to drugs. Isn't until quite recently that the soldier has become god - through the efforts of the RIGHT. You want to buy into it--or accept it since everyone else is buying it there would be no use resisting, fine, but don't impose it on the rest of it who didn't go with the crowd then- when it was wrong, and don't now.

[HFishbine]

41. Say Whaa?

When it comes to Vietnam, those who enlisted deserve more repsect than those who didn't? Gee, I don't know about that.

After a while, it became apparent that the US was in Vietnam for all the wrong reasons. Anybody who enlisted to fight an unjust war is hardly more deserving of respect than those who objected. My guess, you were just a tot or not even born when the shit was hitting the fan over that war.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

44. Got a link to that survey you mentioned?...

And yes, you ARE expressing your own opinion on this issue. IMHO, those that volunteered to go to Vietnam and those that chose other alternatives showed the SAME amount of character by doing what they each believed to be the best thing to do.

The people that piss me off were the guys that volunteered for a National Guard unit and then went AWOL while still more Americans were dying in that small Asian country.

Just as we've been told lies to justify attacking Iraq, we were also told lies to justify attacking Vietnam. Vietnam lasted from our initial involvement in 1956 until we got out in 1974. We haven't been in Iraq a year and our deaths have already surpassed the deaths recorded during the first eight to nine years in Vietnam.

[KittyWampus]

4. Agreed. However, Not Having Served Limits Dean's Arsenal

against Junior who will be running as Commander in Chief.

It's not "fair" but it is a fact.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

45. Tell me again how you become C-in-C without winning an election?...

...That's fact, and it wasn't "fair".

What legal authority does he have to do anything?

[HFishbine]

46. How?

The Supreme Court appoints you? Is that right?

[OrAnarch]

5. oh no!

Dean didn't do all he could to be sent to slaughter babies and burn villages in the name of "democracy" and in the service of the ruling class rat bastards. Whatever shall we do?


From his method of avoiding immoral warcrimes against humanity, I surely must respect him more than those who went and massacared the innocent because their Army told em to. Whos got the moral highground on this issue? :)


Just because the right wing controls the themes in the media doesn't mean we have to start believing that bullshit. Sorry to be so candid.

[Bombtrack]

16. Vietnam wasn't one big Mai Lai

it probably wasn't worth the human and financial cost, but the entire conflict didn't consist of US war crimes.

[OrAnarch]

23. true...

I think there was a platoon that delivered a few boxes of grain to a hungry vietemnese village near the border, which unfortunately, was burned to the ground by a follow up visit. Too many of them damn VC crawling everywhere.

The process of committing murder doesn't fully consist of crimes, as one can most assuredly drive legally to the murder location (follow what Im saying). A murderer can even walk an old lady accross the street before reaching their victim's house. :)

[Jacobin]

31. Tell that to the million and a half dead Vietnamese who died for nothing

[CWebster]

32. Take it from Kerry

I would like to talk on behalf of all those veterans and say that several months ago in Detroit we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command. It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit - the emotions in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

They told stories that at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.



http://pages.xtn.net/~wingman/docs/kerryst.htm

[mumishka]

18. Dean and the draft

Dean's sidestep on the draft is of interest because it speaks to the fact that Dean is part of the establisment---a rich boy who can get out of things. Dean is the wealthiest of the democratic candidates---the grandson of Dean of Dean Witter, went to the preppiest of prep schools and is the ultimate insider candidates. That's who he is and zebras don't lose their stripes.

[Bombtrack]

22. Not quite accurate, Kerry's the wealthiest

Whether Dean or Kerry was born into the wealthier family is not known to me, they're both REAL blue bloods. Kerry from his mothers side. Dean from his fathers or both sides(not sure).

I think that Edwards has more money than Dean)although he and his wife made it and didn't inherit any assets unlike Dean. Dean has the third most cash

[OrAnarch]

27. You didn't have to be rich to get out of the draft!

From close family sources, a medical defirment costs about as much a a tab of acid.

[dajabr]

28. Or, just a guy with a back problem...

Who went through the draft and got rejected.

[HFishbine]

42. "the grandson of Dean of Dean Witter"

Wrong. Next time get your facts straight. (Hint: Rush isn't right. He's reight, but not correct.)

[Melinda]

43. Howard Dean is NOT the grandson of Dean Witter.

Dr. Dean's father worked for the firm and that is the only connection. Time to give up your meme.

[PaDUer]

47. It sounds like you

are a bit jealous that Dean comes from a wealthy family..Ah, I guess you're NEW to DU??--Hmm..

[mumishka]

19. Dean and the draft

Dean's sidestep on the draft is of interest because it speaks to the fact that Dean is part of the establisment---a rich boy who can get out of things. Dean is the wealthiest of the democratic candidates---the grandson of Dean of Dean Witter, went to the preppiest of prep schools and is the ultimate insider candidates. That's who he is and zebras don't lose their stripes.

[ima_sinnic]

24. your post is full of distortions

"the ultimate insider"--bullshit!
many many MANY "ordinary" people were rejected from the draft for medical reasons, string-pulling and money had nothing to do with it. flat feet was even grounds for rejection.

bitter about people with wealth much?
yet another 2-post Dean basher.

[MR. ELECTABLE]

39. LIES LIES LIES

Dean IS NOT the grandson of the Dean of Dean Whitter-- although his father did work for the company. I'll be willing to give your ignorance a pass on that one, but the rest of you distortions are really just obsurd.

[slinkerwink]

50. Kerry is the RICHEST......not Dean.

[CWebster]

6. Thank you for your voice of reason from our generation

for these fools whipped up by this recent war fever w\ attendant drooling over GI-joes.

[DemoTex]

9. Dean handled the whole draft question very well on "Hardball" tonight.

He said, several times, something to the effect that "I really didn't want to go to Vietnam." At one point Cris Matthews said, "We have an honest man here."

Amen, Cris! And tell it like it is Gov. Dean. As a veteran of over 250 air combat missions in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, I have no problem with Dean's draft status ... as long as he tells the truth.

[Jacobin]

11. Welcome home.

Those were terrible times.

[AP]

10. There is something interesting about this issue, and I'm not sure exactly

what it is.

As I've said before, this issue says a great deal about class. But, in that sense, Dean is no more responsible for having grown up with lots of privileges as someone who grew up with no priviliges is responsible for that fate. So, it's not something that's a negative reflection on Dean in that sense. It simply brings up uncomfortable issues about class.

I guess if it says anything interesting about Dean it might be that many other people who have blots in their copy books that are the same size or smaller might have decided never to go into politics.

I guess it takes a certain kind of chuztpah for Dean to decide not to take himself out of the running, knowing that this would be an issue.

Again, this may be a good thing, or it might be a bad thing.

And it may turn out that rolling up his sleaves past his biceps, and staying in cheap hotels and having a dirty kitchen on the day the photographer shows up might undo all the damage raised by the class issue.

For those looking for something to criticize me for in this post, I'll tell you: I'm trying to be honest, and generally positive viz Dean. I'm saying that Dean's not responsible for his fate, adn that any fool could see that this issue needs to be addressed properly, and that Dean seems to be addressing the class issue it raises relatively well.

Don't hate on me just for stating the obvious.

[ozone_man]

34. What did Clinton do?

I forget, but I remember that he was against the Vietnam war. Did he have a deferment? In any case, it wasn't an issue.

Your class issue about Dean has some basis, but not much. Most people who didn't want to go to Vietnam looked for a way out. College, medical, psychiatric history, homosexualty, anything that might get you a deferment. Dean was lucky enough to have a clear medical deferment.

Back to the class issue. War is a class issue, since it is predominantly the under class who fight and die for the rich bastards that wage war. Vietnam was a tragic war and I protested actively against it, but sympathize with and support those who served in Vietnam.

Bush has no leverage over any candidate with his AWOL performance IMO.

[AP]

37. Clinton's actions didn't raise the class issue. Furthermore, I believe

he ultimately went into the pool (that letter notwithstanding) and his number wasn't called.

Clinton at age 21 didn't do anything that Clinton the adult needed to be ashamed of. It wall in how that letter was read. It was a really nice letter, in many respects. But it was easily spun (especially if you ignore the fact that Clinton did enter the draft and wasn't called).

[Mz Pip]

12. I'm not critical

of Dean for not wanting to go to Vietnam. I doubt very many people did - even those who enlisted.

He got a medical deferrment. I just don't see what the fuss is.

MzPip
:dem:

[Forkboy]

15. More power to anyone

who found a way out of that clusterfuck!

[sandnsea]

20. He finally admitted it

That he was hoping not to be have to serve. Unlike his earlier stories of being willing to go. Of course, Matthews had to drag it out of him, but he did tell the truth at last.

And some people enlisted in order to get in the Navy, etc. Very few enlisted out of duty. Going when drafted, without weasling, was duty to your country during Vietnam. You well know that. That's why the term draft dodger in connection with Vietnam has special meaning.

[Forkboy]

26. What duty were they serving in Vietnam?

[Forkboy]

36. KICK

because I'd really love to see an answer on this sandnsea.

[dajabr]

30. I hope I don't need root canal...

But, if needed, I'll get it done.

There is no sign that Dean was unwilling to go. He just did not WANT to go. There is a difference.

[Jacobin]

35. Respectfully disagree

REFUSING to go to Vietnam and continue the horrific bloodshed and STOPPING the insanity of that war was the duty of every american citizen.

I'm amazed that anyone still thinks attempting to conquer Vietnam was a valid or reasonable or legal or appropriate thing to do. They never attacked us.

If the protests in this country hadn't stopped the war, we would STILL be there killing and being killed....for WHAT? Absolutely NOTHING>

[PaDUer]

48. Should we forget

what Viet Nam did to MANY veterans?? How many veterans lives are permanently screwed up since.

[no name no slogan]

49. It's wasn't Viet Nam that screwed up our veterans, it was the U.S.

Let's place the blame SOLELY where it belongs: on the U.S. Government, and the warmongers in the Eisenhower/Kennedy/Johnson/Nixon administrations.

The Vietnamese DID NOT ask for a colonialist army to invade their country after they evicted the French at Dien Bien Phu. Most of them were quite content to let Ho Chi Minh and the VietMinh to run the country-- so much so that Ho won a national election to that effect.

I recently lost an uncle who spent one and a half tours of duty in Nam as a "grunt" in an infantry unit. He was a decorated soldier, earning a Purple Heart and a Bronze Star for valor. He was taken out of Nam during his second tour because he started to get a little bit "odd"-- collecting ears from dead VCs, getting a little too "ambitious" in his effort to kill more VCs than anybody else, shooting at "invisible" VCs, etc.

He returned home in 1970 and spent the rest of his days underneath a bottle. Before he died in 2001, I NEVER, EVER once saw that man sober. I seriously believe he could not function without a beer. Thankfully, his brothers and sisters (my dad among them) kept him off the street, and kept a roof over his head so he could stay sober just long enough to work and eight-hour day at a meat locker, where he butchered hogs.

The "official" cause of his death was heart failure, but we in the family all know the real cause was the collosal mindfuck he experienced in Vietnam, and the chronic alcoholism this kind, unassuming, caring man suffered from when his brain simply could not comprehend what it was ordered to do.

The Vietnamese were innocent bystanders in this "war". They did NOTHING that anybody else who, faced with an invading army, would have done. Let's place the blame squarely where it belongs: on our government, our politicians, our elected representatives, of BOTH major parties.

[izzie]

21. They do not draft you into the navy, but alot in Navy did go over.

Hospital men are from the navy in the MC. My husband knew the guy killed on navy ship , the ship was hit on the side and just about started the mess. That Hospitalman was killed. Most people could not figure what we were fighting over there for. Even in the service. It was all sort of strang. I do re-call that we were going to save the Fr, man ass and we did not even do that. It really sort of grew on people as we were over their so long and it started so slowly.It is more like this So, Am stuff, Hundred men helping then 2 then 9 etc.And every knew the rich were not going or if you were in college. Left alot having to go. I do not blame anyone that got out of it.

[PsN2Wind]

25. Agree in general with your post

but would like to make one correction. US Coast Guard didn't absolutely guarantee you wouldn't end up in SE Asia. Had a friend that joined the Coast Guard (the Lake Merritt Navy as we bluewater sailors called it) to avoid going to VietNam. After boot camp and A school ended up doing radio and radar installations in, you guessed it, VietNam. Almost 40 years and he's still pissed.

[DemBones DemBones]

33. I would disagree with one point you made.

You wrote:

"And yet, we still followed the law and submitted to the draft. We rolled the dice - some of us won, some of us lost. And if we lost, we ALL went to Plan B to try to stay out of Nam. Many of us succeeded legally, others fled, and others died."

I disagree that "ALL went to Plan B." A lot of men allowed themselves to be drafted and served as ordered.

In a previous paragraph, you wrote: " Plenty were drafted, said little and went off to fight. " Perhaps you meant the "ALL went to Plan B" to be a subset of men who were strongly opposed to the war?

Dean doesn't seem to have strongly opposed the war, just opposed the idea of having to participate in it himself, which makes him different from those who opposed it and protested against it, objecting to anyone participating in it.

[kcwayne]

38. Any Democrat that says they strongly opposed the war

in Viet Nam (or anywhere) will have the Republicans and many in the Democratic party screaming that they are weak on defense. It is a tired game for those that cannot and will not think for themselves, and forces politicians to lie.

It is outrageous hypocrisy for those in my generation that faced the draft or enlistment question in Viet Nam to now criticize someone as not being patriotic because they opposed that war. Its criminal when the chicken hawks (whether they are Republican or Democrat) do it and is testiment to their massive stupidity.

The pain, suffering, and death we inflicted on Southeast Asia is indefensible. It was a massive failure of leadership that is being repeated today, because we have not learned the lessons that millions of lost lives should have taught us. It is shameful that we have lost all sense of morality, and sacrificed it for silly political platitudes and litmus tests.

Do we need to kill millions more to get back to a philosophy that presupposes agressive wars are wrong? And how many decades will that lession last? Fortunately, I will be dead by that time and not have to witness this barbarism.

[stopbush]

40. You're right. I was sort of contradictory in those two lines.

You clarified it nicely.

My older brother wasn't on the front lines in opposing the war. But when he came up at #17 in the lottery, he ran to our minister and got him to vouch for him on CO status. He got his CO and dodged Nam. He's now a raging repig, sad to say.

I was in the lottery the following year and got an extremely low number, so there was little chance in my going. I didn't have to explore a Plan B myself - I got lucky.

The kid that lived behind me enlisted in the Navy and ended up in Nam. His letters home were full of fear. I remember the Sunday he showed up at our Lutheran church in his full dress uniform shortly before shipping out. No one was "up" about his going. Everyone felt a level of dread. I don't remember any smiles.

Two months after landing in Nam he was blown to bits during a night mortar attack - and on his birthday, no less. THAT's what war is about.

To tell you the truth, I only wish that today's populace had the degree of anti-war fervor that we had by the late 60s and early 70s. It might have kept us out of Iraq-nam.