This is why "Christianity" is so demonized, and why its valid:

[Selwynn]

I write this as a christian...

Those of you who post every three or four months about how unfair it is that people "demonize" chrisitanity here are going to have to come down off of it. There are some very simply, easy and fairly legitimate reasons why Christianity is criticized so profusely here:

1. It is the most commonly professed "religion" in this land (the United States)

2. People don't easily differentiate personal piety from institutional Christianity. Institutional Christianity has been a pretty sorry lot for an awful long time, sporting corruption, greed, bigotry, oppressive attitudes and exploitation for a long time. The Pharisees that Jesus spoke out passionately against in the gospel stories? Yeah, he would be speaking out against the "religious" leaders of the day to day and the "Christendom" of modern times if he was alive today.

3. The Christianity most easily, most vocally seen by the non-Christian public is the "Christianity" of Roy Moore, Pat Robertson, Jerry Fallwell, and other hateful, hurtful, unloving, uncompassionate, ungentle "servants of god." Our saying to them "but they are not really Christians!" rings a little hollow to people after decades of these folks swearing up and down that they are Christians

4. The combination of neo-pharisaical Christian institutions with anti-Christ public figures profession to be Christian results in a public who sees a very aggressive, angry, bigoted, unloving, closed minded, intolerant, vengeful, combative, and hypocritical "Christianity" reported to it live, via satellite, 24-hours a day 7 days a week...

I don't blame anyone for having an extremely unflattering opinion of modern day Christianity in America.... I just know that they're missing a couple important things, and I hope that perhaps I can bear witness to the reasons why a person might hang on to a spiritual Christian faith despite all the sad misfortunes and embarrassing hypocrisies of other professing Christians I just mentioned...

[chiburb]

1. Thank you. n/t

.

[KensPen]

2. It's not the religion that's bad

it's the institution of organized religion.

Most people who sit in a church are good people.

What should be demonized are the leaders who wrap themselves in a cloak of "pious" righeousness and demand people lead lives according to their visions.

I don't think the belief system should be attacked,
merely those who pervert it.

[arwalden]

3. The Leviticus-Loving Bible-Verse-Cherry-Picking...

... folks just ruin it for everyone, don't they?

You gotta hand it to them though... they get points for persistence and for being able to ignore facts and contradictions and inconsistencies (and for being able to ignore the verses they don't particulary find useful at any given moment.)

That takes skill. (I'm guess it's a skill, because I certainly haven't mastered it.)

-- Allen

[IrateCitizen]

7. It doesn't take skill, Allen -- it takes FEAR

The hateful reactions of fundies to so many things are not as founded in religion as they are in fear. They all seem to share a pure, unadulterated fear of ANYTHING in this world that they cannot understand in black-and-white terms. It's more of a psychological reaction than anything else.

[arwalden]

11. I Have Fear... I Fear Their Power

and their continued success in establishing policy and laws designed to be in compliance with the verses that they choose.

I've read where others explained that such fundamentalism is NOT mainstream and that they are actually a minority. Well... for being a minority, they certainly seem to have a lot of power and influence.

I wonder why that is.

I'm thinking that they aren't REALLY such a minority after all.

-- Allen

[IrateCitizen]

12. Fear v. Hope

That's the ultimate battle for the "soul of the nation". Fundies, like the Republicans they support, exploit fear. They create divisions.

What you are seeing is not the number of fundies on the rise (nor of Republicans), but rather the effectiveness of exploiting fear. What those of us on the left need to do to counter this is not just to refute them with facts (because fear is hardly ever grounded in fact), but rather to offer them hope. That is the best antidote for fear.

But it is not something that will happen overnight -- nor will it happen without struggle.

[JanMichael]

4. This Atheist appreciates your comments.

And the Left's dilemma.

I'm married to a Liberal Christian and, in all honesty, see the Falwell-like Fundamentalists as a true enemy of all that I hold dear.

Fortunately she understands that my contempt for the Religious Reich is not contempt for all Theistic beliefs.

I have much sympathy for Liberal Christians.

[tom_paine]

16. I agree, Jan Michael, as an agnostic

NOTE TO JanMichael: I am not an atheist because the only thing I am convinced of is that I don't know and neither does anyone else (who is human) what the Secrets of the Universe are. So, the whole idea of a Creator of the Universe existing, even if She isn't the micromanaging, yet curiously absent from historical appearance, isn't any more or less likely (given the extreme gullibility and fallability demonstarted throughout human history) than the idea that there isn't a Creator of the Universe.

Not much to add there, except that often DUers ourselves seem to lose sight of the fact that it is Fundamentalist (Taliban) Christianity we dislike, not Christianity as a whole, which is pretty cool given it's liberal/socialist/commie "love your neighbor and do unto others blessed are the poor"

Of course, the Fundies that make up the backbone of Bushevik Occupation Forces would nail that hippie Christ right back to the cross, or perhaps sacrifice him upon the altar of pepper spray and police bludgeonings, as they howled with righteous glee when the story was related to them by their State-Embedded Media Whores.

Fundies aren't Christians at all, really. I think DUers often forget that when heaping scorn on Busheviks...

[theivoryqueen]

5. another possible reason - warning: atheist response

could be that many people consider all religions as cults, in which leaders conjur up some diety in order to collect funds and control people. I am a flaming atheist - obviously - and I do not understand why in the world anyone could (or would voluntarily) ever believe in an invisible, unprovable "god". I always thought it was because these folk didn't want to be so afraid to die. But these cults become more like "clubs" after a while, and people use their membership to "club" other people who choose not to affiliate. It's like a more flexible version of the "country club" and if you belong to the wrong one, oops....

[Blue_Chill]

6. So basically you are making excuses for the uninformed?

You are saying it's ok to behave as bigots and attack all christians because all they see are fundies on TV and Right Wing idiots? I'm sorry but if I wanted to be a part of that kind of thinking I'd be a Right Winger who attack minorities because the damn TV shows us as drug addicts or living off welfare.

[Dr Satan]

8. good post

Why does it have prefaced that you are christian?
Oh yeah , I forgot its because of all the judgemental christians here on DU.

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

9. Thank you

I'm an atheist, but I certainly have no problems with anyone else's view of the universe. It's when one starts stepping on the other's toes that we need to become vocal. I would not force an atheistic viewpoint on anybody any more than I would like to see Zoroastrianism, Calvinism, or Krishna consciousness forced on anyone. Religion is a personal choice, and people should both be free to practice it as they please as well as respect the rights of others who have a different viewpoint. In my experience, almost all Christians who I have ever met have always respected this viewpoint, so there's no problem there.

The problem lies with the people you mentioned (Roy Moore, Pat Robertson, Jerry Fallwell, etc.), who are seen by many as representing the entire body politic of Christianity in the United States, thanks mostly to those figures' arrogant posturing and wholesale abuse of the religion. When Falwell blamed gays, the ACLU, etc., for 9-11, it became absolutely crystal clear to me that these are people for whom there is no low too low to stoop to. It will be a very good day for Christianity (and organized religion in general) when these people are no longer the self-appointed arbiters of Christian morality. In short, these people need to go get fucked and leave the real Christians alone.

I think if there was a Jesus Christ, and he came back today and saw what was going on in his name, he would become livid with rage.

[shrike]

20. I am Catholic and am married to an agnostic

In eight years of marriage we have not had one fight about religion. Why? Because we respect each other's opinions.

And IMO, the Busheviks don't give a f*ck about christianity or any other faith. For them, it's a means to power and a lot of gullible people are being used.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ret5hd]

13. and your post seems...

aggressive, angry, bigoted, unloving, closed minded, intolerant, and combative.

i left out vengeful and hypocritical.

p.s. i'm strictly atheist

[Orthodox Heathen]

21. Just stating a fact, perhaps I have never met a real Christian.

But those I have met never lived up to what they professed to believe.

[IrateCitizen]

14. For that one finger you point at someone else...

there are three pointing right back at you.

Seems pretty apt in this case. Pot, meet kettle.

[KensPen]

15. Please Mr. Heathen....

If you think that describes EVERY Christian you have met,

I might suggest it is you who is bigoted and close minded.

[Cheswick2.0]

17. you really should get out more

Peace of Christ :hi:

[Lars39]

18. Are you totally surrounded by fundamentalists?

In some areas of the country it is VERY hard to find anything but fundamentalist, because anyone classified as *other* keeps a very low profile for survival.

[outinforce]

22. Would that Include

I, for one, would never question what you have experienced.

And I do not know how hold you are.

But I wonder if you have ever seen the "I Have a Dream" speech by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Did you know that he was not only a Christian -- but an ordained minister as well? I wonder if that means that he was doubly "aggressive, angry, bigoted, unloving, closed minded, intolerant, vengeful, combative, and hypocritical"?

You post doesn't say, so I wonder if you have ever been involved in a peace march or a disarmament demonstration. I have, and there are always nuns present. They don't seem to me to be "aggressive, angry, bigoted, unloving, closed minded, intolerant, vengeful, combative, and hypocritical", but then, that's just my own narrow-minded observation.

And I guess you would also say that Rev. Al Sharpton is "aggressive, angry, bigoted, unloving, closed minded, intolerant, vengeful, combative, and hypocritical", am I correct?

[candy331]

26. The Christianity hawkers voices

are a sorry lot to the actual Christianity and Christians of the Bible. The Christianity of the Bible and that put forth by the Christian religious zealots is on the opposite ends of the scale. The founder of True Christianity was a humble man(Jesus Christ) of little means who demonstrated his love and care for all people. This so called Christianity perpetrated today has nothing to do with the founder but is a counterfeit version started after the founder was put to death by his enemies. A careful search and study(done w/o influence of organized religions) of the founder's actual
life and deeds should be done for anyone who wants to know his meaning for true christianity.

The "So called Christians" speak what is in their hearts, a mesaage of hatred and division."Out of the abundance of one's heart his mouth speaks".

[BigMcLargehuge]

19. I have to lock this

please review the rules for posting a new thread in GD before posting a new thread in GD.

Thanks

Big McLargehuge
DU Moderator

1. The subject line of a discussion thread must accurately reflect the actual content of the message.

2. The subject line of a discussion thread and the entire text of the message which starts the thread may not include profanity, excessive capitalization, or excessive punctuation. Inflammatory rhetoric should also be avoided.

3. If you post an article or other published content which is from a conservative source or which expresses a traditionally conservative viewpoint, you must state your opinion about the piece and/or the issues it raises.

4. If you wish to start a vanity thread (ie: a discussion thread in which the sole purpose is to share your personal opinion) you must state your opinion in a non-inflammatory manner which respects differences in opinion and facilitates actual discussion.

5. You may not start a new discussion thread in order to continue a current or recent flame war from another thread. The moderators have the authority to lock threads in order to contain flaming on a particular topic to only one thread at a time.

[Kanary]

23. The "true" Christians are going to have to be willing to Take Back

the real message.

I was raised Lutheran, and I've been looking back the last few years and realizing two things. The first is that I was very fortunate to have this background, because I had Sunday School teachers who taught open-mindedness and acceptance and caring for others. I do *not* understand bigotry, because this is not how I was taught. We had years of ongoing comparative religion class, where we studied the background of various denominations and different religions. Never were we ever told we were 'better", or that there was anything wrong with other beliefs. Our discussions were not based on right/wrong, but on debating an exploring varous thoughts. In other words, we learned to THINK, more so than what I got in public school! Oh, how I value that now. And, I have to say, I particularly value it when I see the childish and hurtful backstabbing that goes on here on a daily basis. If we, as children, could discuss different belief systems in an atmosphere of acceptance and open-mindedness, surely adults here can do the same!

The other thing I have realized is that the church atmosphere I grew up in apparently no longer exists. The mainstream churches have been affected by the right wing drivel, and, as has the rest of society, moved to the right. I doubt I could still find a Sunday School class like the one that gave me such a great start in learning to THINK. What I see is clergy who *KNOW* what Christ really taught, but is' not an easy message to get across to those who struggle to get through the eye of the needle. They know they need an offering plate filled by the ones who are most resistant to the true message. So, they compromise, and drift.

I appreciate, Selwyn, that you can understand the complaints of those of us who either gave up, or who never were part of the flock. I hope you can understand when I say that it's up to you and the rest of your like-minded believers to TAKE BACK the church, and reclaim it's rightful heritage. I"m fully aware that the attempt to do so may make you just as unpopular as... well, as unpopular as Christ himself was.

But there you have it.

Good luck.

And thanks for an intelligent and thought-provoking post!

Kanary

[PurityOfEssence]

24. Great post

I truly feel for you and others of your faith who have a serious concern for how it's used and abused in the hands of zealots and hypocrites.

You pretty much cover everything here, and are doing so in a way not to excuse those who would vehemently attack the religion, but in a way of explaining the overwhelming visible traits of the belief from the vantage of a casual observer.

One of the problems of most belief systems is that they don't want to be judged in toto; to the believer like Blue Chill, the faith is so good, that any bad parts of it or misuse of it are automatically dismissable. To someone like me, the concept of the "inherent truth" is a blank check to distance oneself from all attendant ills, and something the exempts the whole practice from any critical review.

A guy who kills someone by using the excuse--or even sincere belief--of a particular supernatural being's desire is bad, and the institution that has scripture that's pervertable into being used as a justification has AN INHERENT FLAW that needs to be addressed.

Knee-jerk, scathing attacks on the institution are not to be justified, since its net results are a mixed bag of good and bad, but to cooly look dispassionately at how the faith may seem from a distance is a very healthy thing.

Good luck taking the initiative back from the fundies, but I do feel that those of the faith have a duty to the rest of us to do so. There's precious little someone like me can do from the outside, but I offer my support.

[pepsi]

25. Good post.

I belong, as an Independent(extreme lib to them) to a farely right=wing conservative political board. There are quite a few Christians that fit the description you lay out.
It seems as though it completes them, to share the same religion as the President. They thank God for a man given to them who shares the same basic understanding of Gods law.
Unfortunately, Jesus, and especially his example, is not discussed. For some odd reason, they truly believe that Jesus would not only agree to their "rightness" for war, they believe Jesus would recommend it.

I watched "Jesus of Nazarene" this past week. I failed to see even one example that would suggest he blesses the reactions(especially war), of the current "right". In fact, his life and teachings, are almost opposite from the actions. It's striking.
I rarely witness a follower of Jesus on that board.

Taking note that "I" just swerved off the path..

Pepsi