Immigration and American Jobs

[IronLionZion]

From Maddox:
"immigrants aren't TAKING anything from Americans."
"It's not like they can literally come to America, ambush us in the parking lot and take our jobs."
"If you lose your job to an immigrant, it's probably because he or she was willing to work harder for less money."

read the rest at http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=walmart

I agree with him on the fact that if we lose our jobs to immigrants, it's our own fault.

Another interesting point to discuss is that most manufacturing jobs may have been lost to the third world because American unions have abused their bargaining power so much that it was no longer profitable to hire American labor. Shipping is expensive and inefficient so the difference in labor costs is significantly high.

Your thoughts:

[sweetheart]

1. equality of opportunity

As a yank in europe, i notice how inclined people are to similarly suggest that "incomers" are taking our jobs... yet its bullshit. I am just one of a huge legal labour force in the world... and favouring any particular group is not in keeping with human rights and liberalism.

Free fair trade, and lets forget who is an immigrant, as if you live long enough, you'll live to be discriminated against just like you might discriminate against others.

[IronLionZion]

2. absolutely

Free fair trade and equal opportunity is the way to go. If immigrants are willing to work harder for less pay, then "natives" should also work harder for less pay. Competition is not going to kill us, but out-sourcing of jobs to Asia might.

[sweetheart]

8. i don't work for less pay

I think you got that screwed up. Pay for my capability, not my nationality. What would fix your dilemma is an end to corporate personhood, and a law restricting the pay of the highest paid employee to 20 times the lowest paid. From this, i would separate dividends to owners, as they are not "pay".

Public corporations have an obligation to the public. I agree that sending jobs overseas has issues, mostly that it creates structural unemployment (meaning like people are skilled as computer programmers, and have to retrain as civil engineers). Having a labour force that is SOOOOO flexible that people are expected to re-tool every time its cheaper to send a job somewhere else is not fair... even though it is free trade. Methinks a company should be forced to employ its labour force where it's customers are... or pay payroll taxes in the jurisdiction of its corporate registration, and not in some other country... so that in shipping jobs to india to avoid paying FICA, a company still has to pay FICA.

The bottom line of infinite flexibility is that the social contract is discounted to zero... the least taxed jobs win, and the destruction of any form of social network with it... be careful with your use of free trade rhetoric, as you're in neocon territory unless you temper it to account for social contract differences. If money is free to slosh around the planet, then so should labour. Why is it that capital has more rights than labour? It should not. If you believe in that free trade open markets unfettered laissefaire stuff, then labour should move freely also.

Do you work for less pay? Is that why you went to college? Now that you are more skilled, is it better to push your wages down so you have to have a second job? Its crap... nobody should have to take less pay.

[redqueen]

12. a law restricting the highest paid employee to 20 times the lowest

Kucinich said something about this as well.

Great idea, IMO.

[HERVEPA]

3. Thank goodness corporations don't abuse their power

or we'd really be in a mess. (sarcasm)

The bigger problem is jobs not going to immigrants, but being outsourced overseas. Manufacturing, technical, customer service, reservations. All of it.

But then again, in the larger scheme of things, who's to say they don't deserve the jobs as much as we do?

But unions are definitely to blame... For medical benefits (which are disappearing as unions lose power), reasonable working hours and reasonably safe working conditions.

Read some history!

[IronLionZion]

4. I read some history

and Pittsburgh was a big steel town back in the day and if you were a steel worker, you were really doing well. Too bad there is NO steel made in Pittsburgh TODAY! The workers were raking in the big bucks, had lots of benefits, and called in sick a lot. Unions made it happen no? So unions are to blame.

Why the hell would I move my factories to Communist China, pay taxes to the Chinese government, pay to ship my finished goods to America, pay tariffs on the imported goods, and be an un-American asshole for having "MADE IN CHINA" stamped on my products? Do you know how many products today are made overseas? Go to the good store Wal-Mart and look where stuff is made. Then ask yourself if Unions have clean hands.

Then read up some history on Jimmy Hoffa the former Teamsters president and look at the gangsters he dealt with and was murdered by. Many Unions are controled by the MAFIA!

I supported unions 100% until the teachers union at my old high school wanted COMPLETE TAX-FUNDED HEALTH INSURANCE and started going on strike for 4 WEEKS AT A TIME!

Now I support unions only about 50%

[redqueen]

6. Sure

Unions have their share of problems. Power corrupts... that's true no matter what kind of organization you're talking about.

But you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater now do you?

[IronLionZion]

9. Sure, I like to criticize corrupt unions

because they are crippling the education system in my hometown and you like to criticize corrupt and greedy CEO's because they make too much money. I never suggested throwing out all unions just because some of them abuse their power. That's a last resort.

I hate Ronald Reagan but I supported him only one time: The air traffic controllers union was going to strike and cripple the air infrastructure so Reagan sent in the military to take over. He destroyed the union and fired the whole lot for the good of the nation.

Did you know that senior Delta pilots make an average of $250,000 a year? hmm.... and Delta has been losing so much money they may go under. The pilots union can bring Delta to its knees any time they want.

Both Labor and Management power needs to be checked. Nobody is completely innocent in my opinion.

We don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater unless the baby is George W. Bush! ;-)

[redqueen]

14. Entirely correct

Both labor and management power needs to be kept in check.

ANY accumulation of power needs to be kept in check.

As labor leaders become powerful, they tend towards corruption. No one should be surprised, as power corrupts. It's just a fact.

However, regarding wages being driven down globally, that's just F$&#@D. If ANY Democrat or liberal or Green within earshot of you starts repeating that nonsense, you need to let them know the facts! And the facts are that the power elite are trying to convince us drones that this is just the way it is. It isn't so.

Bubble up economics, friends. Bubble up!

[redqueen]

5. $&%# That

Sorry, but this just does not make ANY sense. You're promoting feudalism.

You propose that it's LABOR costs that keep jobs going overseas? When most Americans can barely make ends meet?

You're saying this, with a straight face, while the income of top level execs and CEO's has soared to 500 times what the workers make?

You're proposing that it's the greedy workers, who want to afford a house and maybe a vacation once a year, who are responsible for the flood of jobs overseas -- and not the greed of those pigs at the top?

You're claiming that it's the greedy worker's fault -- despite the fact that the incomes of average Americans has stagnated while the incomes of the top one or five or whatever percent have skyrocketed?

I hope not many are fooled by your right wing talking points.

The fact that this crap is being peddled on a Democratic board... :mad: I'm reeeeeally close to just going Green.

Here is some real information, to show where the problem REALLY is. We DON'T all have to exist on hand-to-mouth wages. That's only necessary when the greedy take over (as they are now, and as they did - temporarily - during the Gilded Age).

http://brookings.nap.edu/books/081577401X/html/137.html

http://www.cbpp.org/2-26-01tax-pr.htm

Or just do a google search for "income top percent average american family" and read what you find.

[IronLionZion]

7. One union I would support is the nurses

but if they went on strike, they would cripple the health care industry and screw millions of sick and injured people. Their conditions are definitely bad enough to go on strike but they don't because they have a very honorable job to do and they care more about their patients then themselves.

If only the Teachers union in my hometown had the same love for their work and children they affect.

[Gin]

10. Doesn't greed at the top play some role here?

gin

[SharonAnn]

11. Yes, a HUGE role.

It's the big problem and the right-wing doesn't like to acknowledge that, because it affects their friends.

[rucky]

13. Never any talk about the employers who hire illegals

why is that?

[sandnsea]

15. People are moving right

The propaganda machine worked.

Seems logical to me that we ought to focus on actual citizens who are bound by our laws and go after those legal citizens who are paying illegal wages or using illegal workers.

I don't think people will wake up until we're all in poverty and by then it'll be too late.

[IronLionZion]

16. "illegals" need to eat and live too

There should be less restrictions on illegal immigrants or just allow them to become legal. But that's a different discussion.

[tigereye]

17. I really dislike hearing unions blamed for economic conditions

This argument was used by Reagan and his ilk in the past. Unions came to be because people lived in company towns and had no food or money to live and no safe working conditions! Many corporations were rolling in money ( many still are) and used unions as an excuse to go elsewhere so that their stockholders could squeeze out more money.

Perhaps some of the rules were cumbersome and Union PR could have been better, but people deserve decent wages, housing, etc. When I worked for a non-profit library, I was once singled out for the " why unions are bad for white collar people" talk by a woman whose dad had been a Steel Worker. What crap! Everyone should have some collective bargaining rights and the ability to negotiate reasonable salaries and work rules instead of being told what will happen. I did belong to AFSCME at one time, and generally they just negotiated a contract. And that was fine. Everyone should have access to this kind of negotiation and bargaining power.