Friends of shooting victim say Howard Dean failed him

[wyldwolf]

Two years after a Norwich Free Academy graduate was fatally shot by police while inside a Vermont church, Robert Woodward's friends claim that presidential candidate Howard Dean mishandled the case.

Woodward's supporters are upset that Dean, governor of Vermont at the time of the shooting, did not appoint an independent investigation into the shooting.

Dean, instead, said he was comfortable with a report by the state attorney general that cleared the police of any wrongdoing, the supporters say. Members of the "Justice for Woody" group say Dean and Vermont Attorney General William Sorrell are lifelong friends and that Sorrell's family helped launch Dean's political career.

"We feel that (Dean) purposely did not want to cross his friend, his political crony of several decades who probably has aspirations to be part of a Dean presidential cabinet," said Keith Carlson, a member of Justice for Woody. "We may not be the ones to prove it. But the public has the right to know."

http://www.norwichbulletin.com/news/stories/20031202/localnews/746805.html

[Terwilliger]

1. now THIS is meaningless crap posted solely for flaming

why dont you post negative articles about Clark?

[ShaneGR]

3. OMG, WE AGREE!

Except for the Clark part.

[KittyWampus]

6. This Is Kind Of Old News Isn't It? Dean Did The Right Thing

Governors and mayors have it tough. The benefit of the doubt should be given to the police... with definate exceptions of course.

[ShaneGR]

2. Snore

Hatchet job article.... did the Attorney General shoot the kid?

[eissa]

4. Interesting quote

"...who probably has aspirations to be part of a Dean presidential cabinet,"

They seem more confident that Dean will become president than some here on DU!!!

Honestly, the more shit that comes out about Dean, the more I have to wonder how insane one must be to run for POTUS.

[Gringo]

5. Thank you your Tuesday's anti-Dean smear #14.

Looking forward to the next story speculating whether Dean "inhaled" to alleviate his back pain while skiing down Park Avenue on his mink-lined Prada skis while reciting the communist manifesto.

And let's not forget how he singlehandledly TOTALLY DESTROYED Vermont's ecology.

[prolesunited]

11. You mean that's all

TRUE!?!?!? :eyes:

[RevolutionStartsNow]

7. Scott Huminski, is that you?

sigh...

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

51. Ah...Scott Huminski....

A short, funny period at DU. But I doubt the fact that wyldwolf rolled in around the same time that SH left is anything more than coincidence.

[denverbill]

8. Howard Dean killed my dog.

Hit him with a shovel then drug him behind a truck.

He shouted racist slogans while he was doing it too.

And I heard he once shook hands with Ralph Nader, and that he and Nader were co-best men at George W's wedding.

[eissa]

10. After he aborted her puppies, right?

And wasn't he shooting his gun in the air while driving off, hitting an endangered bird? What a bastard!

[denverbill]

12. I couldn't see that part.

Because Howard Dean was throwing copies of Mao's little red book everywhere and hit me in the eye, permanantly blinding me.

He's a communist,right-wing fascist, puppy aborting dog killer though, that's for danged sure. And he pushed his own mother down the stairs to steal her bingo money too.

[eissa]

13. ROFL!!!

OMG, I have tears in my eyes! My co-workers are looking at me all wierd wondering what the hell I'm laughing about! LOL, good one!

[JNelson6563]

27. hilarious thread

hard to tell the parody apart from the sincere ones. ;-)

*sniff* funny shit

Julie

[slinkerwink]

20. oops, shouldn't have taken that photo with Ralph Nader

;-)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

9. This is a hearsay report in which the victim's parents are not even part

of the group. Of course the paragraph by the church members claiming the victim was the target of a government conspiracy lend it all the more credibility. :eyes:

Cheap shot post. Dean and Clark fans should really quit grabbing at bullshit and stick to issues.

This reminds me of a Willie Horton tactic and when all is said and done, no matter who gets the nomination, we will have nobody to thank but ourselves for all the vicious rumors that take hold in the public psyche concerning our candidates.

Those who participate gleefully in these character assassination type posts should all proclaim FOUR MORE YEARS with pride...that will be the outcome.

[Hep]

14. People are wrong to compare candidate bashers to freepers

freepers don't post half the vitriolic BS posted to this board by Dean, Kerry, and Clark haters.

[WillyT]

15. Damn... The Desperation Is Gettin Thick Around Here !!!

Calm down. Have a drink on me! :beer:

Sheesh...

[slinkerwink]

18. ahhhhhh.....

I'll have the brewski also :beer:

[knight_of_the_star]

16. This IS something worth posting though

Think of what BUSH will do with this little tidbit.

[Hawkeye-X]

17. except there is unsupporting proof

that Dean had anything to do with it -- the fault lies within the Vermont AG.

Hawkeye-X

[Hep]

19. Oh God

Can we stop talking about what Bush is going to do? WE KNOW. He'll do a lot worse, too.

[HuckleB]

21. How low can we go?

Oh, but it's only starting.

[seventhson]

22. God when I tried to start a thread about the attacks on Dean here: Locked

It is very clear to me that DU has become the proving ground for Rovian attacks on Dean (sometimes in favor of other competitors for the nomination).

Last time I tried, in unflattering terms, to get folks to pay attention to this (at least to monitor it and identify it)it was locked because I blamed it on "freepers" posing as Dems (for Clark or whoever - mostly these attacks come from Clark or Kerry aspirants, but I have seen Edwards postes do this too).

HOW do we address these issues without challenging the messengers?

DEAN was not respobnsible for the shooting. He was satisifed with his own police investigation. Very seldom is ANY governor going to independently cause an investigation of the police in such instances.

Usually a DA does it. But if there is a conclusion that the death was not the fault of the cops, that is usually it - except for a civil suit, where tha family ha the chance to prove their case in court.

I do not know the details of this case, but to blame it on Dean is asinine.

I wish that we could call these attacks what they are.

When do governors EVER appoint an independent inquest into such shootings. Almost never. This is a matter that the courts are best suited for. It sucks, but THAT is not Dean's responsibility.

[wyldwolf]

23. THIS coming from the guy who repeatedly spreads the make-believe..

"Clark worked for Kissinger" and "Kerry is a BFEE collaborator" fantasies. :eyes:

Why not do a 30-day count of the negative Clark threads vs. negative Dean threads?

Then, break them down into two categories: Posts that were based on current stories appearing in the media and posts based on the same old same old stuff.

[seventhson]

25. Clark DID work for the Stephens Group and Axcion AND

Kissinger was allegedly representing Axcion according to some reports.

But Kissinger's client list is secret and this is why he had to resign from the 9-11 commission (because of his client liost which allegedly included the profiling security company Axciom which Clark worked for profiling passengers on airlines for homeland security purposes).

I may not now be able to prove the Kissinger ties, but YOU cannot disprove them either.

Also


Kerry IS in a "secret" order with both George Bushes, which I believe is a criminal enterprise.

MY point is that the attacks on Dean are freeper-like or Rovian style attacks on piddling evidence and trumped up bogusness.

MY issues with Clark and Kerry have to do with their political and idealogical and economic proximity to the BFEE.

Therein lies the distinction.

If Dean had ties like Clark and Kerry do to the Bushes and their backers I would be hammering him too.

He doesn't as far as I know. And I have looked.

[seventhson]

26. Clark worked for Axciom. Did Kissinger represent them? Why does it matter?

http://www.rense.com/general32/whyw.htm

excerpt:

In this writer's opinion, the association Dr. K is most afraid might be made public is with the little known company Acxiom.

Hardly a household name (we will try to change that), Acxiom has been selected the lead company to provide software and pull together the network to furnish the information to DARPA's 'Information Awareness Office' (IAO) where John Poindexter of Iran-Contra infamy will prepare individual dossiers on every American citizen and the millions of aliens (legal and illegal) in the country.

The plan calls for the collection of information from a staggering number of sources e.g. banks, credit unions, health care organizations, the IRS and Social Security agencies, the INS, the FBI, grocery chains and any number of other companies and government agencies (federal, state and local) that have records of individual transactions.

But even this association might be covered up in these days of managed news. No, what scares Kissinger the most is the control and history of Acxiom itself. The company may be more than just a client. Mack McLarty sits on its Board of Directors, which implies some kind of investment to protect.

-----


SO, my friends -- Clearly Kissinger has close ties to Axciom AND Clark, it looks like (the time period is right) was working for Axciom lobbying foir the DARPA contract.

Is THIS why I believe he is dangerously CLOSE to the BFEE?

You betcha.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wyldwolf]

39. It matter because your posts are hypocritical...

Too bad my first reply was deleted. I guess someone got offended that I called a spade a spade.

Unsupported allegations, opinions, and conspiracy theories using the Newsmax of the left, Rense, as your only source.

[Forkboy]

50. Rense just prints anything

Mewsmax has actual (I use this term lightly) reporters writing for them.Rense takes things from all sources,including DU a couple of times.

Not that I disagree with your assesment of the above poster though.

[TLM]

60. Here's more ties to kissinger...

Also a senior adviser at CSIS - (Center for Strategic and International Studies, 1800 K Street, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20006 Fax [phone] ]

2000 CSIS budget, $16 million,
CSIS Affiliates: The International Councillors, a group of international business leaders chaired by Henry Kissinger, meets semiannually to discuss the implications of the changing economic and strategic environment. The Advisory Board is composed of both public- and private-sector policymakers, including several members of Congress. Zbigniew Brzezinski and Carla Hills cochair the board. The Washington Roundtable meets three to four times a year with members of Congress, executive branch officials, and other Washington experts to discuss pressing policy issues of the day. The Houston and Dallas Roundtables bring together local business leaders and CSIS experts to discuss current international political and economic trends.

CSIS Board, Counselors, and Advisers Board of Trustees Chairman Sam Nunn Senior Partner, King and Spalding Vice Chairman David M. Abshire President, Center for the Study of the Presidency, and Cofounder of CSIS Chairman, Executive Committee Anne Armstrong* Former U.S. Ambassador to Great Britain Members George L. Argyros Carla A. Hills Betty Beene Ray L. Hunt Reginald K. Brack Henry A. Kissinger William E. Brock Donald B. Marron Harold Brown Felix G. Rohatyn Zbigniew Brzezinski Charles A. Sanders William S. Cohen James R. Schlesinger J. Michael Cook William A. Schreyer* Ralph Cossa Brent Scowcroft Douglas N. Daft Murray Weidenbaum Robert A. Day Dolores D. Wharton Richard Fairbanks Frederick B. Whittemore Michael P. Galvin* R. James Woolsey Joseph T. Gorman Amos A. Jordan, (Emeritus) John J. Hamre* Leonard H. Marks, (Emeritus) Robert S. Strauss, (Emeritus) *Member of the Executive Committee Counselors William E. Brock Henry A. Kissinger Harold Brown Sam Nunn Zbigniew Brzezinski James R. Schlesinger William S. Cohen Brent Scowcroft Richard Fairbanks Senior Advisers J. Carter Beese Amos A. Jordan Bradley D. Belt John Kornblum James M. Bodner Robert H. Kupperman Stanton H. Burnett Laurence Martin Richard R. Burt Thomas F. (Mack) McLarty Wesley K. Clark Walter Slocombe William K. Clark, Jr. Robert Tyrer Arnaud de Borchgrave Anthony Zinni Diana Lady Dougan Luis E. Giusti Fred C. Iklé (Distinguished Scholar in Residence)

[TLM]

59. I already proved ties to kissinger....

Clark was an advisor to the lobbyist firm CSIS and Kissinger is the chiarman of the top level of their group. THeir own website list Clark as an advisor and Kisinger as leadership of CSIS.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

28. Oh fucking fuck! there are 20 posts before YOU showed up taking the

story to task for being filled with innuendos. So your broad brush smear of Du is unwarranted. This thread does NOT justify your ad hominem unfounded attacks of those you pull the same fucking shit on such as claiming Kerry is a Nazi and a member of the BFEE. If anything, this should confirm how ridiculous it looks for anyone to pull this shit.

[seventhson]

32. Look, Nothing,

I am not broad brush smearing DU by any means.

I am saying that DU is lately becoming a weirdo magnet for freepers posing as Dems to attack Dean. The rush and influx of antiDean posters is actually kinda scary to me.

I LOVE DU.

My issues with Kerry and Clark are well known and I document my concerns.

But the daily attacks on Dean are becoming ridiculous.

To me these are obviously IMHO organized by the extrem right.

I DO believe that both Kerry and Clark have tooclose ties to the extreme right. Kerry via Skull and Clark via Axciom/Stephens.

That is my opinion, which I believe is permitted under the rules.

I have raised trhis issue of "freeping" with the Mods and with Skinner and I am satisified that I am not the only one who is concerned about this.

My own issues with Clark and Kerry and their Bush ties have been usually framed in specific responses with documentation. But identifying those who are poseurs here is much trickier.

Politics is dirty. Rove is the worst. So I hope that freepers posing as dems here get outed. That's all. I think the nasty attacks on Dean speak for the posters themselves.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

36. Your second sentence is ironic

[seventhson]

41. Pot/Kettle

fortunately, I think there is a lot of concern here about this.

We SHOULD be able to discuss the candidates and therir pasts.

I actually WISH Dean had appointed an independent counsel or staff to investigate. Maybe he trusted the Attorney General, though and felt it was not necessary. Maybe the AG covered upo for poor police conduct.

The courts are always availbale for attempts to redress such wrongs and if the FAMILY of this guy is not pursuing it (for whatever reasons), then that is pretty much the end of it.

Anyway, as for your comment -- it takes one to know one, I guess.

[wyldwolf]

42. Huh?

We SHOULD be able to discuss the candidates and therir pasts.

Unless it's about Dean, right? Then it becomes a case of freepers posing as Dems to trash Dean. Bwahahahahahahahaha!

[seventhson]

45. You heard me.

Have dirt about DEAN's ties to the BFEE -- I'm all ears. I'd LOVE to know if you have info like that.

I have looked for them. They do not seem to exist -- at least not in any significant way. (yale, for example, IMHO sucks as training for presidents). Frankly the backing of energy industry types in Vermont is an issue for me -- it bothers me a bit.

But it is NOTHING compared to the ties of Clark and Kerry DIRECTLY to economic networks and sociopolitical ties with the Bushes which I believe exist.

[wyldwolf]

46. So the only negative story about Dean that should be posted is...

..whether he has ties to the BFEE?

But it is NOTHING compared to the ties of Clark and Kerry DIRECTLY to economic networks and sociopolitical ties with the Bushes which I believe exist.

Which you believe exists - but can in no way prove.

Let's do this again:

why not do a 30-day count of the negative Clark threads vs. negative Dean threads?

Then, break them down into two categories: Posts that were based on current stories appearing in the media and posts based on the same old same old stuff.

Unless there is a double-standard. Everyone is fair game except Dean, huh?

[seventhson]

48. These facts are HISTORY. There is no doubt about them.

Except for those ignorant of history.

I accept that Dean has faults like anybody else. Posting about them is fair. THIS post was just slimy, though, to me -- and a low attempt at a smear. And I think it is fair to say that.

If you have dirt to sling at Dean on anything, sling it.

Buit expect to take heat as I do when I sling the truth about Kerry and Clark.

In a few months the only issue is whether either Clark or Kerry will get picked as VP for Dean. I oppose them both as I believe that would raise the price on Dean's head for the far right and give them the payoff of a lifetime: a Clark or Kerry Presidency.

THAT is my opinion.

As for doing a "count" -- YOU do it if you want it so bad.

I'll even help prove your point by posting all my Clark and Kerry research (ONE MORE DAMN TIME)

[wyldwolf]

49. Admit it, Dean is your sacred cow...

To you, every candidate is fair game for criticism EXCEPT Dean - to criticize Dean makes one "Rovian."

We've seen all of your Clark and Kerry "research" and it has been debunked as the wild conspiracy theories it is.

So, go ahead, post away and we'll embarass you again.

Start a new thread and make it easier for you.

You have no "facts" - just conspiracy theories.

[TLM]

61. Admit it, you have no leg to stand on...

your guy is losing hard, so you attack Dean. WHen the baseless and/or hypocritical nature of your attacks is pointed out you try to hide behind claims that somehow any attempt at refutation of attacks on Dean ammounts to people saying Dean is not allowed to be criticized.

And it is a FACT that CLark worked for Kissinger in a lobbyist firm in which Kissinger was the chairperson of the top level of the organization.

No ammount of Dean bashing will change that.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seventhson]

43. Breaking the rules

not nice to attack me personally, but I have not alerted yet.
That is because my skin is VERY tough.


I have posted my links. You KNOW that Kerry is in Skull and that Clark worked for Axciom/Stephens which set up the DARPA surveillance system for Poindexter, the Contra criminal.


Anyways - true colors are true colors.

Peace to You.

[wyldwolf]

44. But you can't prove...

A relationship with Clark and Kissinger or that Skull and Axciom/Stephens are right-wing or that Kerry is a BFEE collaborator.

[seventhson]

47. Of course I can prove that Axciom/Stephens and Skull are right wing

Axciom developed the technology for the DARPA program to spy on US while Clark was working for them. Kissinger's partner is McLarty who is on Axciom's board. Clark was hired by Stephens about the same time as Stephens gacve Bush $100,000 in 2001. Clark worked for an organization which supported the coup attempt in Venezuela.

Skull and Bones is well established as a proving/recruiting ground for spooks and covert operators responsible for some of the worst crimes against humanity known to history. Skull members financed Hitler, managed the assassination of democratically elected leaders abroad and basically ran the CIA during periods where assassination coups and murder of even our allies was fair as long as it served wall street. Not to mention its members' role in the development of the atomic bomb and nuclear genocide globally.

You want a history lesson?

There are volumes of evidence to support my positions.

[wyldwolf]

53. Give us a history lesson...

Axciom developed the technology for the DARPA program to spy on US while Clark was working for them.

Doesn't make it rightwing...

Kissinger's partner is McLarty who is on Axciom's board. Clark was hired by Stephens about the same time as Stephens gacve Bush $100,000 in 2001. Clark worked for an organization which supported the coup attempt in Venezuela.

Doesn't make Clark rightwing...

Skull and Bones is well established as a proving/recruiting ground for spooks and covert operators responsible for some of the worst crimes against humanity known to history.

No proof

Skull members financed Hitler, managed the assassination of democratically elected leaders abroad and basically ran the CIA during periods where assassination coups and murder of even our allies was fair as long as it served wall street.

Doesn't make it rightwing - and no proof.

Not to mention its members' role in the development of the atomic bomb and nuclear genocide globally.

Deployed by a democrat. Truman a rightwinger?

You want a history lesson?

There are volumes of evidence to support my positions.

Show us these "volumes."

[ozone_man]

55. Yeah, you can't prove anything.

But the circumstantial evidence is pretty scary. I don't like Clark's involvement with Acxiom, sort of a "Big Brother", Homeland Security company or the National Endowment for "Democracy", which I assume is your "organization which supported the coup attempt in Venezuela".

There is a certain guilt by association with people such as HK, being on the same board (NED or Acxiom). Can't prove it, but, it still creeps me out. I don't want a spook or a general who worked for spook organizations as the next president.

[wyldwolf]

57. yeah, too bad...

..Clark can't seal his records for ten years to hide his percieved improprities the way Dean has done - like accusations of graft, cronyism, bad environmental policies, etc.

[TLM]

62. Can't defend CLark, so attack Dean...

same typical weak bullshit.

[Cocoa]

24. Dean had Bob Woodward killed?

and the officer's name is Holbrook, and Hal Holbrook played Deep Throat in All the president's men. :tinfoilhat:

[tinanator]

40. now THAT would get MY vote!!!

seriously!

[bobbyboucher]

29. Keep trolling for bad Dean stories.

You do good work.

[Zomby Woof]

30. stick with the issues!

We can get Dean on lots of shit, not crap like this. This reeks of Whitewater hunting a la the Scaife crowd against Clinton.

Shit, I must exist in some nether region between the Dean lovers and haters.

[Eloriel]

54. No, you seem firmly in the Dean hater camp to me

Or at least, I haven't seen you post anything even neutral about him.

Eloriel

[Zomby Woof]

68. then you aren't looking

But your lack of thoroughness and obvious anger towards me (or anyone who refuses to wear brown lipstick for Dean) isn't my problem. :D

On edit: I don't hate Dean, as I have repeatedly posted. Some of his followers really test me, but I hate no one. :loveya:

[Padraig18]

33. Again with this flame bait piece of garbage?

You go into a church full of people and start waving a gun around, you're gonna get your ass filled with lead. The crazy motherf***** got what he deserved...

[bicentennial_baby]

56. Did you mean pocket knife?

Because he did'nt have a gun, it was a pocket knife. As someone who lives quite close to where this occurred and who followed the story from day one, I think you should read up a little more before you start spouting off like that. This incident was very tragic, and the man's family deserves justice. Believe me, there are plenty of people in Southern VT who agree with me.

[edzontar]

34. This is getting insane.

Where is this crud coming from?

Why is it being posted here?

This serves nothing but Bush.

[Bill of Rights]

35. I found this interesting.

Thanks!

[TLM]

63. There's a big f-ing surprise...

more useless clark corps Dean bashing crap.

[Scott Lee]

37. AntiDean slime thread. Move on. Nothing new to see here.

[Forkboy]

52. lame ass thread

c'mon wyldwolf,this shit stinks.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

58. Dean failed justice here- the actual eyewitness testimony was minimized

there's a whole website on this, and here you can find the account compiled from the eyewitnesses:

http://www.justiceforwoody.org/story/narrative.html

My problem with this is Dean didn't want to go against the word of his friend and closest, longest, political ally in Vermont- Attorney General William Sorrell. It was Sorrell's mom who got Dean his start in Vermont politics.

The mere facts of the case beg for an outside investigation: Within 60 seconds of confronting the man, the 3 officers had shot him 7 times, after doing nothing but screaming at him to "drop the knife".

Dean did what a lot of people in his position would do. But he certainly didn't distinguish himself as someone with extraordinary principles and genuine concern for justice. And it sure as hell isn't what a true liberal would do. They are right to flag the hypocricy of Dean's saying he's "fighting the good fight, standing for what's right, even when it means standing alone." Dean sure as hell didn't stand up for this poor man.

[TLM]

64. This poor man brandished a weapon at cops...

and got his ass shot.

The guy was out of his mind, ranting about the CIA trying to kill him, then he pulled a knife and threatened to kill himself if the people in the curch left. When the cops showed up the told him to drop the knife and he refused, then made a move towards the cops and they shot him.


I fail to see what the cops did wrong. A crazy guy with a knife comes at you, and you shoot him. That sucks, but that's what happens if you run at the cops with a knife.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

66. "...made a move towards the cops and they shot him?" WRONG!!!

never happened. But I see where you want to ignore the eyewitnesses too.

So, the officers, while they do not agree as to whether the alleged charge was a "run" or a "lunge", all state that Woodward rushed at Officer Parker with intent to kill him. What is most striking about this claim is that there is not one eyewitness who corroborates it. Not one person saw Woodward, do anything that they described as charging the officers with deadly intent, nor heard the shouted "Stop".

http://www.justiceforwoody.org/story/narrative.html#s9

[Hep]

67. The kids parents aren't even backing the effort

Why stick your neck out in this thread? Oh, right! The bar can't be set too low.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

69. It says that nowhere in the article.

"The parents have kept a low profile and have not been active with Justice for Woody."

But spin that as you must...

[killbotfactory]

65. Cops kill an obviously insane man brandishing a weapon and holding..

hostages in a Church after he refuses to drop the weapon.

The cops were supposed to do what, exactly? Read his mind and realize he's a harmless psycho?

[madfloridian]

70. I did a search on this.

All I can find are stories apparently by this group. They all seem to be totally sympathetic to the victim. Is there another side to the story?

If there is, I would like to read a story with just the facts. Was he holding people hostage in a church? Are there facts to back up these contentions?

I hear the victim's family is not backing this Justice for Woody group.

Could someone please fill me in? If this is going to be posted here every few days, I think both sides should be presented.

AND I would hope the same for any thread on any candidate. I think if the forums allow this, it is our obligation to get both sides out.