Restaurant security video released in Cincinnati incident

[Paragon]

I'm sorry, I can't post links to a story or video yet, as it just appeared on the local 11 o'clock news. But it was fairly telling.

He was acting bizarrely - after planting a big hug on one of the staff at the restaurant, he starts dancing...yes, dancing. At the risk of sounding flippant, it looked like "the robot".

That's not necessarily odd, until the security camera outside shows him doing the same dance for the fire truck that has been called to help him. His, uh..."jubilance"...apparently freaked out the staff at the White Castle enough to call the paramedics.

It's probably safe to assume that he wasn't interested in getting treatment from the paramedics, which is why the cops were called in. Eyewitnesses from across the street say that the officers calmly tried to get him to stop, sit down, whatever...when he attacked. The rest is pretty much on the videotape.

Not supporting or defending the cops' actions here - I'm just not qualified enough to make a proper judgment. No one likes to see the use of nightsticks, but apparently, Cincinnati does not have room for tasers in their budget - and in retrospect, the shock of something like that could've had serious effects someone with an enlarged heart who also was also high on coke and PCP.

Hope this fills in some of the blanks for some of you. That is all.

[frustrated_lefty]

1. This only confirms my thoughts,

the situation could and should have been handled differently.

[Guaranteed]

2. The guy shouldn't have been beaten to death, though.

Yeah, he was on drugs, but, somewhere between him doing a happy dance and him dying, something different should have happened.

He didn't deserve to die.

[Paragon]

3. He wasn't "beaten to death"

His heart gave out on him during the struggle. None of the baton strikes were anywhere near his heart.

And I have yet to hear anyone (with the possible exception of right-wing message boards) suggest that he "deserved to die". Of course he didn't.

[Eric J in MN]

5. No one is saying that he was struck in the heart. The point

The point is that the stress of being pepper-sprayed and the repeatedly clubbed (clubbed once a second during part of the tape) may have given him a heart attack.

[Paragon]

7. OK...

How would you have handled the situation, having been tackled by a 400-pound man? Not trying to be inflammatory, just curious.

[frustrated_lefty]

10. How 'bout

"Sir, why don't you grab a seat in this car, we're going to take you home and give you a warm blanket" and then lock his ass up?

A lot of people seem to point out "wow, he was a big, possibly intimidating man." That may be true. But he was passed out on the grass. If he was THAT big, THAT scary, THAT intimidating, why the f%$k didn't they get backup before awaking him?

The man deserved arrest, I do not deny that. This could have been handled differently and he would not be dead. It SHOULD have been handled differently, this was a stupid, pointless death. Watching the news, I am just very tired of hearing about stupid, pointless deaths. We need less of that in 2004.

[Paragon]

11. Don't think you answered my question or read my initial post

Eyewitnesses said they attempted to talk him down, but, no doubt high from the PCP, he charged them anyway.

He attacked first. Now what do you do?

[frustrated_lefty]

13. He was unconscious first.

No matter what line of duty you have, you shouldn't be creating situations unless you have a plan to manage the situation. If I saw a 400 lb man passed out in public, I'd call for backup and leave him the hell alone until the backup arrived. That takes, what, 5-10 minutes? He's a big man, leave him alone while he's frigging ASLEEP on the ground and get some help, some support, don't go all RAMBO bludgeoning the man to death.

You ask "what do I do?" Well, I don't create the situation in the first place.

[VolcanoJen]

20. I guess they saw him as an "imminent threat."

Hey, they're only following the example set by our own leadership. Pre-emptive strike on a guy who was most likely a little high and a whole lot drunk.

Sad days in my city, indeed. Sad days. :-(

[Scairp]

22. Clearly, you haven't the foggiest

He was NOT unconscious when the cops arrived. In fact, the paramedics who had arrived on the scene first are the ones who called the cops because AFTER he regained consciousness he began acting in such a way that they were concerned he was a threat. He had adequate opportunity to get medical treatment even before the police had gotten involved. The police didn't create the situation, they reacted to the situation the suspect himself created.

[Dork]

30. It's the cops' job to figure that out

It isn't for people who kind of feel bad that the Cincinnati police killed again to figure out how they should have handled it differently.

[frustrated_lefty]

6. The beating probably figured into his death

and claiming otherwise is silly. You essentially make the saame point. "His heart gave out during the struggle." Final coroner's reports will become public soon enough. The question is: was the struggle necessary in the first place?

[Paragon]

8. see post # 7

Obviously, if he hadn't been in a struggle, he might not have died. Cocaine, PCP-laced cigarettes, and obesity aren't fantastic for your heart health, either.

[FredScuttle]

18. Man, the only way cocaine and PCP killed that poor man

was if they were dabbed at the end of those batons the two police officers were using to beat him into submission.

My completely unscientific opinion, of course.

[HootieMcBoob]

31. he had an enlarged heart

probably from years of drug abuse. that in addition to the drugs he was on that night and the stress put on his heart by attacking the cops and the cops response to his attack is probably what led to his heart attack.

[el_gato]

29. the guy is beaten with clubs and dies

and you say he wasn't beaten to death? The lengths some people will go through to defend the cops is amazing.

[Loonman]

32. What're you? A criminal defense lawyer?

Either you've had your ass beaten for resisting or you have a vested interest in this case.

[Scairp]

21. Huh?

He WAS NOT beaten to death. He died as a result of his bad heart and drug use. What are cops suppose to do if some enormous crazy man lunges at them? Give him a candy bar and hope he calms down? I don't think so. I think the way he was treated was as a result of his own violent behavior. You know, it isn't always the cops fault when a person dies in their custody. If he had simply complied with their orders he would probably wouldn't have died of heart failure.

[lewiston]

38. There is no

evidence that I have heard or seen that would indicate he was beaten to death. More than likely he did of heart failure.. the night sticks may have contributed, but the PCP didn't help.

[mmm]

4. those cops waled on that guy!

no excuses accepted

[DoNotRefill]

9. I only saw part of the first tape on the news....

but from what I saw, he got in at least one excellent shot into one of the cops before they started beating on him. It's also interesting to note that when he hit the cops, they BOTH had their PR-24s on their belts, not in their hands. That strikes me as being indicative of their not looking for a fight, but of being drawn into it when he assaulted the one officer. During the struggle, it also appears that the subject made a decent effort to take one of the PR-24s away from the officer.

BTW, one of the manifestations of PCP intoxication is rapid mood swings coupled with extreme violence. A person on PCP can be calm and happy, and then in just seconds turn into a raving lunatic. I've seen it happen first-hand.

[Don_G]

12. A Little More Than That

PCP floods the system with adrenalin to the point that bones break before strength gives out. There was a clear and present danger to anyone around the individual which should be brought up and considered.

[jayfish]

16. I'm Not One To Defend Cops, But...

I'm not sure what to think about this tragedy. However the argument that the guy was on PCP and was therefore prone to violence and was a "clear and present danger", is a little soft. Was he jumping around singing "I'm on Angel Dust"? Or were the police clairvoyant? If they were they made a fairly poor decision. For two officers to approach a person, who is suspected of being under the influence of PCP, with only themselves as backup is not a commendable action. Secondly, I believe that the toxicology report shows traces of PCP in the dead man. When exactly was he under the influence of PCP?

Jay

[KTM]

17. Indeed

Trace amounts of PCP were found in his system. That does not sound to me like he was fried at the time... and if he were, as the poster abpve indicated, it's reasonable he would be irrational, and unlikely to act in his own best interest (i.e., obey orders.)

If these cops were in such danger, why didn't any of them pull their guns ?

When they beat him to death, they did so with stabbing blows from the nightsticks - meaning the force of their blows was not spread across a 10-15" area, but concentrated to a 1" focal point... a sure recipe for internal injury.

They COULD have waited him out. They COULD have protected themselves by drawing their weapons. They COULD have done a lot of things... instead they mercilessly beat him to death.

At a minimum, they should lose their badges. IMHO, they should be charged with manslaughter.

[HootieMcBoob]

33. they wailed on him because he attacked them

and wouldn't get on the ground and put his arms behind his back.

[John_H]

14. Jezuz...if you can get beaten to death for bad dancing.

I'd have been a statistic since prom.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

15. I've been a DJ for 25 years

I could have off'ed a lot of people. :D Lack of rhythm should be a federal crime!

[FredScuttle]

19. Sic those cops on Justin Timberlake

and turn on the videotape!

[Nlighten1]

25. LOL!

Now that is a tape I wouldn't mind watching.


Pass the popcorn!

[Booberdawg]

23. According to that account, it doesn't sound like the police were

trying to hide anything. And according to the eyewitnesses in this account, all was calm until he attacked the officers.

Regardless of all the protests to the contrary in this thread, it's absurd to think the cops could just "wait him out" or do nothing once he attacked them.

And did I see someone in this thread all indignant about how this man was handled say it would have been better if the cops had pulled their guns instead?? :eyes:

[Jeff in Cincinnati]

27. Considering his erratic behavior

The cops had an obligation to subdue him. Given his condition, he was a danger to himself and others -- had he suddenly dashed out into traffic and been struck by a car, the police would have been blamed for that.

I think the real question here lies in why the paramedics (who were at the scene throughout the incident) left immediately afterward without checking on Jones. I mean, they just witnessed a guy getting beat down. Didn't it occur to them that he might be hurt?

Immediate medical attention might have saved the guy's life.

[Booberdawg]

39. Good Point!

Where did the paramedics go after the police arrived? I saw another few minutes of the original footage yesterday that I had not seen before and about 2 minutes passed after the police realized he was not breathing (but he still had a pulse) and before they could find the paramedics and get them back to tend to him. Where were they?

[Le Taz Hot]

24. OK, let me get this straight

this WHOLE thing started because the man was dancing and hugged a waitperson???? Toto, we're not in California anymore.

[HootieMcBoob]

34. Were you there?

This is a 300 pound guy probably squeezing the hell out of a 110lb waitress and then acting very strange in front of a restaurant. The called the paramedics and both they and the cops came. No body wasn't beaten with anything until he attacked the police. He attacked the police and refused to get on the ground. I bet if you had been working at the place that night you're responce would be different.

[Loonman]

26. Death of objectivity

I swear to Christ that people's hearts around here bleed so much that no blood gets to their brains.

[in_cog_ni_to]

28. I saw the beating

the cops gave that man. Their asses need to be sitting in jail. :grr: JMCPO

[SoCalDem]

35. I have actually read very little about this, but the video

brought back Rodney King flashbacks..

If this guy was just high and hungry, he certainly did not need to die.. I bet Rush has been in very similar circumstances..(well maybe minus the dancing)..

The guy was OUTSIDE the fast food place, he seemed to be alone..(not threatening customers).. When he appeared to be "unconscious", he was probably just sleeping..

The cops were very heavyhanded(literally), and a 400 pound person may have been physically incapable of "putting his hands behind his back"..
I have known some morbidly obese people, and I doubt if THEY could have done that..

Too bad that the cops did not just back off and let him calm down.. They probably could have talked him into going with them..

or they could have called a family member to come and get him..

I feel for the families of the cops too.. They seem to get "caught up" in the whole thing and forget that they have a camera on them most of the time..

I bet the people at White Castle are sorry the even called for help now..:(

[CaptainClark23]

36. Has anyone in this thread ever

Been faced with someone who has been ingesting PCP?

Believe me, I'm no apologist for law enforcement..have been on the receiving end of more than one nightstick. And I also have a good first-hand working knowledge of recreational substances.

But if those cops say they felt endangered, if PCP was involved, I'm prone to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I've seen a SMALL man take on six police officers at one time, being maced and clubbed while HANDCUFFED...and he did some serious damage to those cops. He smashed a car window with his own head and still kept coming.

Don't underestimate what actions that particular chemical will enable one to do.

I mourn the death of that poor fecker, but let's be realistic here. There's plenty worse cases of police brutality and misconduct to choose from. From what I understand of this case, this isn't one to shout from the rooftops without looking clueless and reactionary.

[Loonman]

37. Hear, hear!

What are we in fucking fairyland where nobody knows what PCP can make people capable of?