Dean EVISCERATES Bush! Now this is how to wage politics!

[Scott Lee]

I knew this guy had gall and guts, but holy friggin christ....check out what Dean said about Bush and his military so far -

http://slate.msn.com/id/2091855/

This article is the MAD note, folks. It not only shows the first Dean knuckles across Bush's smarmy little mouth, but it gets into something you might have thought the repuke-kissing media had forgotten - Bush*'s AWOL status and ducking the war that Kerry and McCain actually served in.

The gloves just came off. Clark, Kerry, Gep, Edwards I hope you're watching....THIS is how you deal you Bush. No mercy.

[_Jumper_]

1. Will this sway moderate voters?

Will Dean's attacking prowess win us the votes of moderate, middle-class voters who will see their federal taxes increase under Dean?

[slinkerwink]

3. actually, Dean advocates cutting taxes after returning the system

to the Clinton level.

[_Jumper_]

4. What will the net effect be?

n/t

[slinkerwink]

7. the deficit will be brought down hopefully enough for a tax cut

to make sense then. We can't have social programs with a deficit---and that's the truth.

[_Jumper_]

13. You're right

But can a Democrat be elected by pledging to raise middle-class taxes?

[meow2u3]

81. Dean actually wants to cut taxes on the MIDDLE AND LOWER classes

...while forcing multimillionaires and billionaires to pay their fair share--by middle-class standards!

[aquart]

28. Let's not talk tax cut.

Let's talk rescinding tax cut. Because if we don't, we're dead. I mean that sincerely.

[AmericanLiberal]

53. it doesn't matter what "we" talk

The Repukes are gonna talk "raising taxes" even if we say "rescinding the tax cut" and both are going to be true but it's going to hurt Dean a lot and he can't afford it.

[Code_Name_D]

173. Then we say: The free ride is over.

The thing is that the poor don't get tax cuts. They get a pitence. I just saw a peice that foun small buisness got %500/year in tax brakes. Table scraps.

We need to throw thoes scraps back into there faces.

[KittyWampus]

70. Too Bad Dean Won't Cut Pentagon Funding

That would do more in the long run to help AMerica & it'd lessen the need to rescind the Middle Class Tax Cts.

As usual Dean supporters remain in denial.

Dean CAN"T do anything about the out of control PNAC'ers and their budget cause he has no credibilty in Foreign Affair or Military.

His weakness carries negatively into Economic Issues.

[Bandit]

82. Thge net effect will be a few more people will hear the truth

Are you for hiding the truth? Sometimes the only way to get attention is to rattle their cage. Dean appears to be a good rattler. If you don't like his approach don't vote for him. Apparently a lot of people like very much how Dean is conducting his campaign. Sorry you don't. Nice thing about America is you can say what you want at least at the moment. Dean is saying what a lot of Americans want and need to hear. You may think that to beat Bush* we need to be polite and take whatever they dish out with only a whimper but I don't think most Americans like a whimpering fool.

[sangh0]

87. Dean and (some of) his supporters are for hiding the truth

They constantly try to to hide the truth about how much the other Dems are bashing Bush*. Gephardt called Bush* a miserable failure. Kerry called for "regime change" in the US, and don't even get me started on Sharpton. And there's much more Bush* bashing from the Dems.

Unfortunately, the Deanies must misportray the efforts of the other Dem candidates to criticize Bush* because Dean's anger is all he has, so they maintain the anger by lying about the Dems and misportraying them as silent.

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Closer]

5. There's no way you read the article

in the less than 2 minutes it was posted.


Why try to be first to respond with a negative message? :shrug:


Nevermind.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

23. Evelyn Wood?

:shrug:

[Woodstock]

18. I didn't see any tax cut

I think I'm middle class, at least last time I checked.

The middle class taxes, such as they were, are set to sunset after 2004.

[aquart]

27. Define moderate.

I always think of myself as moderate and eviscerating Bush is just dandy with me.

[artr2]

73. Fuck em

If they can't see what bush is doning to America, then they DESERVE what they get. I can't see where you are getting off spouting the DLC - PNAC line. Repukkk lite does not work you have to stand up for yourself and what you believe. And possibly you should change your avatar to holy joe if you don't want to offend anyone

[bobbyboucher]

152. Right on,

fuck em. It's not the idiot vote we need. It's the apethetic one.

[kodi]

78. dude, you think clark (or edwards) won't have to raise taxes ?

any fiscally responsible person in the white house is going to have to do this to right the ship of state.

but, dean did say that he would repeal the tax cuts for the very wealthy, not the middle class....as have clark and edwards.

so what's your point?

[Guaranteed]

93. It should, if they're using their brains.

Dean's point is that our military is being used recklessly, and that we should be more "efficient" by actually attacking people who attacked us, instead of attacking people that haven't attacked us. It's a pretty clear point, and certainly not a "fringe" idea.

[onecitizen]

151. I understand what you're saying...........

but I just don't care about the moderates anymore! Yes, I know. That is really stupid of me. BUT I am just sick of all this "you have to move to the center" crap I could scream! I'll settle down and get over it though. I'll come back to my senses. I'll get a grip soon.

[slinkerwink]

2. that's awesome!!!!

go Dean! :hi:

[aeon flux]

6. Thank you Dean!

I have a new found respect for the man.
keep up the good fight!

[whirlygigspin]

10. I hope service records get debated

Then we can talk about Mr.*awol

[Nashyra]

17. Great article

Good for Dean and also good for Clark and Kerry. All around pretty good article for the Dems attack on *.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Closer]

19. Cocoa

I soooo disagree with you on this one.


This article SUMS UP beautifully how we've GOTTA FIGHT to beat BushCo. Fighting like this is the ONLY way. I think this piece is phenomenal!


No matter who you support, fill in the blank for Dean with your candiate of choice, and re-read it. In it, are the keys to victory in '04.

[sendero]

68. yes...

... you cannot fight a knife-wielding thug using Queensbury rules. The examples in modern politics are everywhere. Wake up liberal people!

[Scott Lee]

20. Perhaps you fail to see that NONE of the candidates thus far

have taken on Bush* like this to his face. Not. A. One.

I hope they do. The more the merrier. But don't fail to notice the way this race shifted gears today, and hopefully marks the emergence of the Democrats as fighters instead of lilly livered, pink tutued yes men.

[sangh0]

85. Not true!

Gephardt called Bush* a miserable failure. Kerry called for "regime change" in the US, and don't even get me started on Sharpton.

Unfortunately, the Deanies must misportray the efforts of the other Dem candidates to criticize Bush* because Dean's anger is all he has, so they maintain the anger by lying about the Dems and misportraying them as silent.

[Scott Lee]

108. Yes, true.

None of the ones you mentioned took this fight to Bush so directly and so forcefully. Read the article and try to match any of the other candidate's "ire" at Bush* to Deans. You can't do it.

Because it's not there.

[sangh0]

111. Opinion masquerading as fact

None of the ones you mentioned took this fight to Bush so directly and so forcefully.

That's an opinion, not a fact.

Read the article and try to match any of the other candidate's "ire" at Bush* to Deans. You can't do it.

Already done. "Miserable failure" and "regime change"

[Scott Lee]

114. Awww, so they mouthed a couple of sentences.

Dean unloaded on Bush-hole if you read the article.

There is almost no comparison in ire between Dean and his Johnny Come Lately's straggling behind.

[sangh0]

122. Typical Dem-bashing Deanie

who hates the fact that the other Dems have taken the lead in bashing Bush* while Dean tries to flail at the Dems.

[bobbyboucher]

155. Not wholly acurate,

Dean's been hitting Bush for quite some time. It seems to me, the others jumped on that bandwagon, but maybe not. And don't always gemeralize about Dean supporters.

[Forkboy]

165. Typical Dean bashing psuedo Dem

[bobbyboucher]

153. Wrong.

Stop generalizing.

[sangh0]

158. Wrong?

You mean Gephardt DIDN'T call Bush* a "miserable failure"? Kerry DIDN'T call for "regime change" in the US?

[Closer]

9. This

This, my fellow Democrats, is how we're going to beat Bush:

snip
Let's recap. A guy who has no foreign policy experience, opposed the war in Iraq, and went skiing after he escaped the Vietnam draft because of a bad back is calling a wartime president soft on defense. And despite cries of outrage from Republican pundits, luminaries, and party organs, he isn't letting up.

snip
It's been said before that Dean and Bush share an aristocratic Yankee heritage. To the unwary, this means they're soft. Democrats learned the hard way that when it comes to politics, if not war, Bush has no shame and takes no prisoners. Now Republicans will learn the same about Dean.


I don't care who gets the Nom, whether it's Clark, Kerry, Gephardt, whoever. The ONLY way we're gonna win this thing is to FIGHT like this.


Kudos to Dean!

[RobinA]

120. Disagree Completely

This kind of thing will never beat Bush. There are no ideas. So, he thinks Bush has been bad for terrorism? What's his plan that is so much better than Bush's? How does this kind of rhetoric convince the swing voter that he should vote for Dean? I will vote for the Dem nominee, but the guy in the middle....this gives him NO reason to go our way. Didn't we already make this mistake in '02? "Vote for us, we aren't Bush" didn't exactly save the Senate for Dems.

[HFishbine]

141. Disagree (in part)

Dems lost in 2002 because they failed to distinguish themselves from republicans. In 2004, there needs to be a clear and consistent effort to drive home the failings of Bush. But you are right about the need for well-articulated alternate plans. I think the only way we win is with a good portion of both.

[fabius]

11. The only answer to a cowardly bully.

Punch his damn lights out.

That's why I like Dean. He won't take this crap.

Even my liberal Congressman and Senator made some kind of backroom deal on the Medicare bill. When will they learn not to trust the Repuglians?

[HFishbine]

24. A...

friggin men!

[caledesi]

32. Dean is a "street fighter" and if he is the nominee, the thugs will

not be able to "McCain" him. He is way ahead of them, believe me. He's been planning this run for a long time (how many times was he in Iowa over a year ago? No one knew him, but he still kept showing up. Trippi is a genius and will make mincemeat out of Rove.

And oh yeah, this line is lethal - talk about exposing these thugs...

Bush lacks "the backbone to stand up against the Saudis," who are funding radical Muslim schools "to train the next generation of suicide bombers."

No, Gov. Dean, we don't want to talk about the Saudis. We don't want to talk about our family's relationship w/ them. We don't want to talk about how they finance al-Qaeda bec they have MUCHO money in our banks. We don't want to talk about how we flew them out of the country after 9/11 when NO planes were in the sky. Please Governor Dean, we have to go change our "Depends." LOL!

edit: forgot stuff

[Julien Sorel]

12. WOW.

He's saying exactly what Clark has been saying since before he was a declared candidate. Amazing. It's a wonder he can take time out from such speechmaking to put the finishing touches on his next brainchild: the wheel. I sure hope he finishes soon. Something tells me once Howard is done with it, it'll be a hell of an invention.

[slinkerwink]

15. **rolls eyes**

If I remember right, Clark started hitting really hard on Bush, like, five weeks after he entered the race on Iraq.

So far, I haven't heard anything about how hard Clark's been hitting Bush on domestic policies...:shrug: Methinks he's a one-note man?

[Julien Sorel]

21. Then you haven't been following his campaign.

Since he always hits Bush on domestic issues, including attacks on the Patriot Act (before he declared), jobs, healthcare, and so on.

Perhaps the perpetual hypnotic drone coming from the Dean camp has hurt your cognitive abilities?

[JNelson6563]

66. Well maybe if Clark's supporters

were a little more interested in posting updates and progress from his campaign instead of bashing Dean all the time more folks would be aware of what Clark has said and when he says it.

Just a thought....

Julie

[sangh0]

86. Maybe if Dean supporters

stopped trying to pretend that Dean is the only one bashing Bush* (and undermining the bashing by doing so) they could find out about the other candidates and how they're bashing Bush*, a truth the initial post denies.

Just a thought

[JNelson6563]

130. whaaaa???

Who's pretending Dean's the only one bashing Bush? Not I.

So, if you were to post an article about Clark (or anyone) bashing Bush would I have grounds to accuse you of "pretending" they were the only one doing so?

Remarkable.

Julie

[sangh0]

140. Did you even read the first post?

It says "The gloves just came off. Clark, Kerry, Gep, Edwards I hope you're watching....THIS is how you deal you Bush. No mercy."

The gloves just came off? Does that mean Gep did NOT call Bush*'s policies a "misreable failure" during a Presidential debate?

Kerry didn't call for a "regime change" in the US before Iraq?

Clark hasn't attacked Bush*?

[Bread and Circus]

117. You are a rock-star Billy Bunter... I love your style and I love that pic

Clark was coming down on Bush way back when, that's why
so many of us "idiots" wanted to draft him.

[Hep]

118. Coming down?

OR going down? Sometimes it s hard to tell.

Sorry. I didn't mean that. The door was open and I couldn't help but walk through it. I already take it back.

[Bread and Circus]

119. That's pretty funny.

But I think you got it wrong, my lady.
Clark I think has always just wanted to share
his ideas on how to help this country. I think
he has the cred and the skills that his ideas
should be warranted.

Your fellatio reference is pretty funny though...

[Hep]

124. I agree

Ma'am.

[texas is the reason]

167. yeah, he rocks...... like winger and air supply on tour!!.rock on BB!!!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

30. Flame On!! I love the smell of roasted Chimp in the morning!

[frank frankly]

43. such a nasty useless post, Double B

it is a good thing I like Clark, because you represent him very very very very very poorly.

sorry, but if your purpose is to promote Clark, YOU HAVE FAILED.

[Julien Sorel]

59. Why is it that everyone makes the assumption

that if you dislike a candidate, or find something silly about a thread, that it's because of some ulterior motive? I hate Bush, not because he's a Republican, but because he's Bush. I hate Dean, not because I somehow think it will help Clark, but because he's Dean. I find this thread hideously dishonest, not because I hate Dean because I want to help Clark, but because it is.

Nothing Dean says here hasn't been said before -- the only 'unique' thing about it is the pot/kettle aspect -- yet we're being told this is somehow a lesson in how to go after Bush, when it's merely a lesson in hypocrisy and deflection. Pointing that out is somehow wrong?

[sendero]

69. I've read and heard....

... all of the candidates (ok, the ones really in the running, Dean, Clark, Kerry and Gebhardt) and while every one of them says basically the same things about Bush*, they each have their style.

To say they are all the same or that joe blow said it first is missing the point in a huge way. It's the WAY they say it, it is the nuances of their delivery. Dean is a junkyard dog and while *you* might think that is bad *I* could not disagree with you more.

Clark also has a great command of the facts and some persuasive arguments but he is too moderate in his delivery. AMERICANS RESPOND TO PASSION BECAUSE THEY ARE DISINCLINED TO LEARN THE TRUTH OF A SITUATION. The Repubs have been using this fact against us for years and it seems like Dean is the only one to have figured this out.

Epilogue: Kerry has 'coarsened' his rhetoric very recently but IMHO he's late to the game.

[JanMichael]

71. You "Hate" Dean? "Hate" him?! So you'll go third party if he's nominated?

I'm only "ass"uming that because since you "Hate" Bush too you'd be in a pickle. Two hated candidates...

Nader 2004 or maybe just a Non-Voter?

[Guaranteed]

94. Yeah...I guess so...

He hates Bush, AND he hates Dean.

WOW, as Billy Bunter would say.

You know, Billy, make use of the emotional spectrum. There's plenty of room in between loving (Clark) and hating (Dean).

But, really...I understand your reasoning. Dean decided to forego campaign financing. And he "flip-flopped" on his stance on the Israel-Palestine issue. No, no- I understand. This man is to be hated.

He wants to rescind the tax cuts entirely so that the programs he advocates can actually be paid for, with a balanced budget. Shame on him.

He wants to open up the party to Southerners. The nerve.

I'm SICK of the all the hate being aimed at our candidates. They are ALL good folks. You have no good reason to hate Dean. You're just bitter because he's the front-runner. Comparing him to Bush in your feelings toward him is ridiculous.

[sangh0]

88. Not "everyone" makes that assumption

It's just common amongst the most rabid Dean supporters.

[Woodstock]

14. Nobody does it better

He said Bush was "juvenile" on the Diane Rehm Show yesterday. :-)

[Rose Siding]

16. This is the best press Dean ever got from Saletan

Is this close grudging admiration, or what!?

snip>
It's been said before that Dean and Bush share an aristocratic Yankee heritage. To the unwary, this means they're soft. Democrats learned the hard way that when it comes to politics, if not war, Bush has no shame and takes no prisoners. Now Republicans will learn the same about Dean.

[WillyBrandt]

22. Good work, Dr. Dean (from a Clarkie)

Good work, Howard. Those who say "electability" doesn't matter are wrong--it does matter, immensely. And there are serious questions about Dean in that regard.

But electability isn't the only thing. Organizational talent, a fighting spirit, and (strangely for a Doctor) a killer instinct are also vital.

Things like this make me think that if Dean gets the nomination that it is far from hopeless. He's no Clark, but he's very good.

Clark / Dean 04: The Unbeatable Ticket.

(edit--small change)

[Closer]

25. Thanks for that Willy!

[demodewd]

147. IMHO

IMHO a Clark-Dean ticket isn't realistic. Dean aspires for the Presidency and won't take a back seat to anybody.

[Egnever]

26. WoW That article is awsome!

I think thats the first time i have seen bush taken to task so thuroughly in one article ever. The tide is turning and Dean is leading the way.

Dean 2004!

[slinkerwink]

29. that's awesome!!!

:hi:

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HuckleB]

33. I hope they all start repeating those messages.

Especially about cutting vet benefits. Every one of our candidates should have mentioned that when they heard about Bushie's little foray in and out of Baghdad.

[Jack_Dawson]

34. This Makes Me Cringe

People will you listen to yourselves? The gist of this whole argument is "well our guy may be a pussy, but he's not afraid to call out YOUR guy for being a pussy."

IT'S EMBARRASSING!!!

Is this what we've come to? One draft dodger calling out another in his pursuit to be the leader of the free world? PLEASE tell me you're aware that a 4-star general, Rhodes Scholar SOUTHERNER has entered the race. Talk about someone who could ACTUALLY eviscerate Bush. Good God almighty.

[HFishbine]

37. He's free to start

any time now.

[burning bush]

39. Do We NEED A 4 Star General To Slay Bush?

NO

Clark COULD Do it, without a doubt!

But the dawning realization is that we do not need such a heavy hitter to take on Bush!

Do you see that?

Let's PRETEND that Dean REALLY dodged the draft (he didn't, but let us pretend...)

SO WHAT?

He still stomps on Bush. You say we need the 4 star General, I say Dean seems to be doing pretty damn well with just his brass cojones and the power of the American people behind him.

An I mean ZERO offense to Clark.

[Jack_Dawson]

40. Yes, we do need a 4-star General, and I'll tell you why

Look Bush is a dumbass chimp and I realize this. I'm not saying Dean or Clark are within 50 IQ points of Bush.

But all things being equal - for some reason Bush's lameassness really plays in the south. Dean...does not play in the south. For some reason Bush's "War on Terror" resonates with the south, military types and veterans. Dean's "I went skiing during Vietnam" does not resonate with these groups.

I think Dean is a good person. I would vote for him over Bush in a heartbeat. But all things being equal, Dean simply DOES NOT have the crossover appeal of a General Wes Clark.

If you like, I can offer ample evidence of people I know who voted for the chimp in Round 1 who will vote for General Clark this time around.

-Pulling my hair out over the obvious

[HFishbine]

41. Dude

The solution is obvious. Quit pulling out your hair, quit typing on message boards to argue with a few dozen people who have largely already made up their minds, get up, register some voters, go door-to-door with some Clark flyers and donate as much money as you can afford to the Clark campaign. Did you go to a Clark MeetUp last night? Instead of berating anonymous fellow dems, go get some votes for your candidate.

[Jack_Dawson]

48. Yes Dude...

I did go to my Clark MeetUp. I do donate to Clark regularly. And I would say it's a stretch to say everyone on DU has their mind made up.

But having said that, I'm sorry if you thought I was berating Deanies. I reviewed my post and didn't find much in the way of berating. Hey it's a free country...if you want to vote for Dean, vote for Dean. If you want to vote for Dukakis, vote for Dukakis.

I'm just saying I have no desire to go over Nader Falls again.

Peace.

[burning bush]

49. 's cool

I don't feel berated, but I don't buy your logic either.

No offense.

[HFishbine]

76. No need to apologize

for what I may have thought. It was your words that were derogatory. Yes, I'd say you were berating Dean supporters when you chastize them for their enthusisasm over Dean taking the fight to Bush, calling it, as you did, "embarrassing" and telling us to "listen to ourselves."

But I guess calling the leading candidate, the one who has energized this race, the one who leads in money raised, has the broadest geographical support and who has the most volunteers, I guess calling him a "draft doger," as you did, and a "pussy," as you did is acceptable commentary in the Clark camp. So be it. And good luck on that strategy working out for you.

You can apologize for real in March.

[CWebster]

45. You may get Republicans who would vote for Clark over Bush

but will you lose Democrats and weaken the Democratic party further with a recently declared Democrat who leans Republican. Might as well have 2 Republicans running against each other.

[Jack_Dawson]

47. Losing more hair

Dude,

The "recently announced democrat" argument is inherently flawed because active military can't be partisan. He voted for Clinton and Gore, but can't exactly broadcast that while being active duty (and working among republican-heavy Pentagon types).

Clark is the best gd thing to happen to this party in a long time...there's new excitement, new donors (yours truly), and I think the Dems are better for it.

Oh that's right, he voted for Reagan. And at one time you probably wore acid wash jeans...what's your point? People change, people mature. You can't fault a guy for getting wiser as he grows older.

Peace.

[CWebster]

50. Didn't stop his gilded praises of Bush

If you dismiss Clark's past, then you must dismiss the past record and positions of them all and take them on the word...You know, like Bush is a "compassionate conservative".

[Jack_Dawson]

55. Praise for Bush?

People calling out Clark for praising Bush are gnawing on the red meat Rove threw to you when he released that video.

Upon further examination, his "praise" was in early '02. A time we were at war in Afghanistan, and trying to find OBL. Most of the country was behind Bush on that.

Since then a lot has happened. Bush squandered all of our international goodwill. He pulled a monumental bait & switch with Afghanistan and Iraq. Oh and he's done nothing with the economy except pass along tax cuts to our bosses. In other words, if Clark is singing Bush's praises in Spring of '03 then yes we have a problem.

I'm not telling you who to vote for, but take Clark's early missteps with a grain of salt. Peace out.

[CWebster]

57. Spring of '03

"As for the political leaders themselves, President Bush and Tony Blair should be proud of their resolve in the face of so much doubt. And especially Mr Blair, who skillfully managed tough internal politics, an incredibly powerful and sometimes almost irrationally resolute ally, and concerns within Europe..."

April 2003

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0917-14.htm

[Jack_Dawson]

58. And continuing the quote...

"But remember, this was all about weapons of mass destruction. They haven’t yet been found. It was to continue the struggle against terror, bring democracy to Iraq, and create change, positive change, in the Middle East. And none of that is begun, much less completed."

His "praise" was conditional. And the conditions still haven't surfaced.

[loyalsister]

60. The important piece

that Clark supporters love to ignore is that he was praising Bush at a FUNDRAISER. That is working to help them WIN in 2002. That is an extremely pertinant fact.
I like Clark better than some of the other candidates, but the above fact is one that trips the radar of any person with a tiny bit of political savvy, and makes them a bit uncomfortable.

[Jack_Dawson]

61. The More Important Piece

But Loyalsister...so what? He also spoke at Democratic fundraisers. He was doing what retired Generals do.

The subtext of your post is what intrigues me. If his speech "trips the radar" and makes you "uncomfortable", then why is that? Do you think he's actually a Bush plant? An elephant in disguise? Some kind of Trojan Horse being wheeled into the democratic party?

I respect your reservations, I really do. But in all honesty...this guy didn't have to run. He had plenty of money, a huge book deal. But Bush continued to piss him off so he ran.

Most of us know our political leanings by the time we reach adulthood, and party affiliation to a large part defines who we are. The thing is, for most lifelong military, country comes first, and political affiliation is an afterthought.

So he's late to the party. Embrace him, because he is one hell of an inoculation for the "weak on defense" and "we know better than you" arguments by the repugs.

[loyalsister]

62. Anyone with a brain

should have some discomfort at the appearance of opportunism. He was raising money to help them win and now wants Dems to finance his presidential run.
I will not embrace him. I am quite familiar with politics and there is something to be said for showing some long term loyalty to the group from whom you ask large financial favors.

[Jack_Dawson]

64. Fantastic Logic

Brain = Closed Minded. Do your homework on Clark - watch his interviews, town hall meetings. Read passages from his book and then tell me he's an opportunist. Until then I can't take you seriously. Peace out.

[HFishbine]

79. "He also spoke at Democratic fundraisers."

Really? You mean around or before the time he was helping republicans raise funds? Or do you mean once he decided to run? Do you have a source or link for that?

[burning bush]

51. I like Clark

But many Clark supporters seem to believe that we can't win without him.

I strongly disagree.

And, even if he were nominated, and did win, I'm not sure we need to take this country further into a military mindset, which I think Clark would do, simply because that is what he has spent a lifetime training to do - succeed as a military leader.

Not really a fault, just not really the direction I might want to choose.

[Code_Name_D]

175. Its a gimick.

Clark can win becase he is a Genral is a gimic. Nothing more than trying to hang bobles on a stick. This type of political calculating is exactly how we got into this fix in the first place. You want votes, you have got to have more than a campish B-movey gimic to get attention. You have got to have something to offer them.

I will take the truth over 4 shiny objects any way of the week.

[Hep]

75. draft dodger?

Is this your first day here?

[sangh0]

90. Keep pretending

that the "draft dodger" issue won't have any influence, that it's only an issue for Republicans, and they're not gonna vote Dem.

Keep implying that everyone who is concerned with the issue is an idiot. That'll sure win votes for Dean.

[Scott Lee]

109. I BEG for Bush* to bring the draft issue out. Oh yeah, baby!

He knows damn well he's a pig on a spit if he does.

[sangh0]

112. You'll have to beg DEAN to raise the issue also

and it's hard to raise the AWOL stick when your own record of military service is as questionable as Deans.

[Scott Lee]

115. Uh, no. All it takes is one person to raise the issue.

Bush* might start that fight, but Dean will finish it.

[sangh0]

123. Even you don't dare say "Dean will raise the issue"

because even you know that Dean's questionable background makes it politically impossible for Dean to do so.

[Scott Lee]

174. He just might. See, he has balls. A rarity in Dem politics these days.

Be careful about what you try and predict from Howard Dean - he has a way of giving a wedgey to "conventional wisdom".

[Creideiki]

164. Bush can't bring up the draft dodger issue, either

Especially not with Old Yeller as his Veep. Remember, Mr. "I had better things to do"?

[burning bush]

35. Holy Shit!

Saletan nails it.

This article makes me wonder about something.

Doesn't the idea that we need a Kerry or a Clark to defeat Bush actually indicate that we on the left give bush some type of status as a military leader. If not, why does it take a war hero to beat the guy?

Answer? IT DOESN"T.

Bush doesn't deserve to have that kind of a fight, and if we put a legitimate hero up against him, we give the Republicans the respect they never earned. We give them a legitimate debate on the war.

NEVER.

Dean gets MAJOR points from me on this line of attack, because IMO he is taking away Bush's ammunition.

BTW - notice how Saletan slyly refers to Dean as a military leader here?

Where did Dean and his lieutenants get this kind of gall? Maybe from the guy they're attacking.

The war is on, and Dean is commanding his troops!

[HFishbine]

38. Hmmm

Good point.

[mitchum]

36. He did well

[caledesi]

42. Now that the "gloves are off," I cannot wait until Bush* is

queried about his little AWOL trip. I don't care who the nominee is as long as I hear those beautiful words. "Excuse me President Bush*, but just where were you during the years 1971-1972?"

Bush*: Uh, er, um, I don't answer trick questions.

Nominee: This is not a trick question Mr. President*,as Commander in Chief, the American people have the right to know if you served without your country without going AWOL.

[sangh0]

91. Dean won't ask about that

Dean's military record doesn't lend itself to questioning others about their record of service.

[janx]

95. I want to see a debate so badly

between Dean and Chimpy!

[eileen_d]

44. Dean's good at hating Bush

so am i vote for me

[ProudToBeLiberal]

46. what position are you running for?

and in what state?

[eileen_d]

52. Class clown

State of confusion...

[FredScuttle]

54. Did you go skiing during Vietnam?

if so, look out! You're a traitorous draft dodger and commie sympathizer who'll never, ever, ever get the votes of those crucial wingnut zealots in the South who still write in John Wayne for President.

(sarcasm off)

[Isome]

56. Good for DEAN!!! ...and he's not even my guy!!

e o m

[tlb]

63. Max Cleland on "weasel" Dean

"At a time when young Americans are being killed and wounded by President Bush’s failed policy in Iraq, we don’t need another governor who ran from going to Vietnam and leading our country"


"We cannot afford to have a leader who weaseled out of going to Vietnam on a medical deferment for a bad back and wound up on the ski slopes of Aspen like Howard Dean"



And the draft weasel EVISCERATES the AWOL ? I don't think so.

Sorry if that steps on anybody's fantasies.

[burning bush]

65. With all respect to all veterans

I disagree that the only leader suitable for this country at this time is another Vet.

[sangh0]

92. Good for you! Now for the bad news:

You're vote doesn't garauntee the election for Dems. A significant portion of the voting population disagree with you and think it is an important issue.

[burning bush]

99. well sangh0, I trust you, but..

if it is a significant portion, maybe you could pop me a significant source?

thanks :)

[Rose Siding]

72. Resentment and anger at the govt

for sending him to a hopeless war would be rational for Cleland. Anger at Dean is not.

[sangh0]

96. Dean inferred that Cleland is Bush*-lite

Cleland voted for HSA, the PATRIOT Act, and IWR, and for that Dean called him "Bush*-lite"

Is that enough make Cleland's anger at Dean rational?

[Rose Siding]

139. Maybe that's it...

But he should be angry with himself for going along with Bush on all those issues.

Have you any idea why Cleland quit the 911 commission and accepted the board appointment Bush gave him? I can't find anything more about it.

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20031123-091108-4750r.htm

[Scott Lee]

116. Max Cleland exposed himself as an inveterate liar here.

"At a time when young Americans are being killed and wounded by President Bush’s failed policy in Iraq, we don’t need another governor who ran from going to Vietnam and leading our country"

Howard Dean did no such thing. Ever. He showed up on time to his draft board review with all documents required of him by the military. The draft board gave him a 1y deferment based on a back condition. Howard Dean didn't give that to himself, nor did he "run" from anything.

Max Cleland, you are a liar.

[sangh0]

142. Pretty low blow

calling a genuine American hero who actually made a sacrifice for his country (unlike others who talk a lot) a "liar"

It shows how some Deanies don't care about anything but Dean.

[Scott Lee]

176. Max is a proven liar. Go read the post.

And I'll extend that to say that anyone who continues saying Howard Dean dodged the draft is, likewise, a liar.

If Max Cleland admits his lie and apologizes for it, I will respecet him again.

[Nlighten1]

67. Dean laid it down

Is Kerry watching?

[maxanne]

74. I was there on Sunday

listening to Howard Dean electrify the sro crowd in Wolfeboro, NH. There were at least 400 crammed into a room designed for 300. He was smart, charming, funny - and to the point. I happened to be standing near some Republicans who were brought along by wives, somewhat grudgingly. By the end of the hour, they were clapping right along, and agreeing with Dean.

This article makes it sound as if all Dean did was bash Bush - but the bulk of what he said actually focused on his vision for the future, both at home and abroad.

I have stopped reading a lot of the Dean and Clark threads, because of the polarization taking place. The first primary is in less than 50 days. If we don't want another 4 years of Busholini, we'd all best be finding ways to work together. I can support any candidate in the race - save for Lieberman. And you bet your sorry "my guy's dick is bigger than yours" asses that's what we're going to have to do to end the Bush nightmare. I hope ya'll are up to it.

[grannylib]

77. Somebody better pay attention to it; the media sure aren't n/t

[slinkerwink]

80. who?

Don't the Clarkites claim it's "Dean,Dean,Dean,Dean" all the time in the media?

[Selwynn]

83. No - it isn't how you wage politics - its how you lose politics

Average voter: "he just seemed so rude and/or mean, bush seems so nice."

You act as though the average voter makes decisions based on issues or who is the most qualified and does NOT say statments like the one I made above, and you would be dead wrong.

[HuckleB]

89. Thanks for the conventional wisdom.

Conventional wisdom is a sure way to lose an election.

[Scott Lee]

110. Well you can don your crown of thorns. But we want to win.

Ego te absolvo.

[Selwynn]

128. Keeps saying that all through your next four years a Bush

Elections are won or lost on issues, but on how much an indivual likes the candiate. It's not based on reality but the perception of reality. It's not conventional wisdom - its an absolute fact.

This is why democrats lose all the time - because we enjoy so much the self-satisfiaction that comes from our guy shooting from the hip, or from our guy who focuses intensely on issues and we are so sure that if we just tell it like it is and stay issue oriented we'll be a shoe in -- and then we lose EVERY TIME.

Bill Clinton one because he was smart, handsom and charismatic. Period. If he had been one of those things, he wouldn't have won, no matter what his ideas were.

[Scott Lee]

135. One more time in English please?

sorry but your post was all over the map...can you try again?

[sangh0]

84. Not quite

The other candidates have been making the exact same points as Dean is making. At the same time Dean is saying this, Dean is also saying things on Hardball that are not quite the "evisceration" you describe

MATTHEWS: Do you think he would be a good secretary of state for you, Colin Powell?

DEAN: I think he would be a good secretary of state, period. He is a loyal person. He knows, what he is doing. And he has what-let’s get back to the question...

http://www.msnbc.com/news/1000254.asp?cp1=1

[Melinda]

100. Did you change that text too, sangh0?

Seriously dude, you have to quit putting words into Dean's mouth - people are noticing.

DeanHappy:)DeanHappy:)DeanHappy:)DeanHappy:)DeanHappy:)DeanHappy:)DeanHappy:)DeanHappy:)DeanHappy:)DeanHappy:)DeanHappy:)DeanHappy:)DeanHappy:)DeanHappy:)DeanHappy:)DeanHappy:)DeanHappy:)DeanHappy:)

[sangh0]

102. Keep pretending

that Dean wasn't happy to avoid serving

[Melinda]

103. I'm shocked sangh0... why do you make stories up?

Why do you dissimulate and distort? Why not provide the quote for God sake?

[sangh0]

107. The link is there

Go ahead and click on it

[Scott Lee]

113. Because sangh0 would rather see a Bush* victory

than conceive of a Dean victory. That's really.....really...sad.

[sangh0]

125. said the Dean supporter

while bashing all the other Dems.

Some people hate it when the Dems do a better job of bashing Bush* than Dean does bashing Dems.

[Scott Lee]

134. Alert me if you ever actually go from Dean bashing to Bush bashing

I will be all ears.

[sangh0]

143. If you show me your Bush* bashing

I'll show you mine :-)

[Forkboy]

166. I love to see it to

I dont think it exists.

[Scott Lee]

177. You mean you'll actually start Bush bashing? There is a God.

[janx]

98. Freepers have discovered this article:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1032893/posts


What a turd. A metrosexual one at that.


1 posted on 12/03/2003 4:33 AM MST by Happy2BMe

To: Happy2BMe

Listening to the Demonrat deabate I was struck by the detachment of the candidates from current issues.

It's as if 9/11 never happened.

The Demonrat obsession over domestic issues has been dwarfed by world events and they don't even know it.

Dean is like an angry mental patient screaming non sequiturs at a padded wall.


9 posted on 12/03/2003 4:54 AM MST by zarf (..where

To: Happy2BMe

RE: What a turd...

I couldn't have said it better myself.

It seems to me, considering Bush's high poll numbers, from Republicans and Democrats alike, that the only reason we are inundated with daily stories about ANY of these "Democrat candidates" (read "assholes") is that the media is continues to exhibit its extreme left-wing bias. There doesn't appear to be any real groundswell of interest in any of these losers, however much the left-wing media tries to sell them with lots of exposure and push-polling.

Bush will take every state in the union. You've heard it hear first...


21 posted on 12/03/2003 6:50 AM MST by vanmorrison

To: Happy2BMe

We need to take a poll with the Vermont Nat'l Guard:...

Well, it's kinda hard to get good polling results with only 8 persons participating, but...

We're talking about a state with, I think, around 700,000 persons, total population?

And Dean thinks that the fact he governed this state is significant in terms of experience that he can apply toward being the President of the United States?

There are hundreds of mayorsout there that have much more constituents than this bozo.

Dean is a joke, but he is beating out the super-joke, Kerry (who is a Vietnam veteran, by the way).

Truth be known, none of them will present a challenge to us come election day.

But they provide good comic relief in the meantime.


18 posted on 12/03/2003 6:01 AM MST by OldSmaj

__________________________

They think this election's going to be a walk in the park. HAHAHAHAHAHA!

[bpilgrim]

101. Dean: "Bush knew" (9/11) ----------------------------- LINK

http://new.globalfreepress.com/article.pl?sid=03/12/03/0822207

plenty of links

peace

[LeahMira]

104. And Bush will completely ignore Dean.

Dean EVISCERATES Bush! Now this is how to wage politics!

And Dean's anger will blow over unnoticed by all except his fans. It won't be until the candidate debates when Dean or whoever has the chance to say these kinds of things to Bush's face that it will matter. I hope that the Democratic candidate (whomever) does have the brass to say these kinds of things to Bush's face.

[Larkspur]

105. Bush won't be able to ignore Dean for the same reason Kerry, Gephardt,

Lieberman, and Edwards could not -- Dean is an aggressive campaigner, so even if Bush declines to debate, Dean will be all over the place blasting Bush's record and getting people excited about taking our country back.

It's kind of ironic, but Dean, not General Clark, knows how to build a grassroots army of aggressive progressives to take on and defeat the Repuke hordes.

[SeattleRob]

106. This why I like Dean

Do I agree with Dean on every issue? No. But I agree on a majority of his stuff. The bottom line is that he is a fighter and he will not take any shit from Bush and Rove.

[killbotfactory]

121. That's my Dean

Dean know's how to fight. None of this bullcrap "I'd do what Bush did, only better!" nonsense I've heard from other dems. Dean's not afraid to disagree with the "conventional wisdom" because thats the only way you're going to sway people to your side of the arguement.

[slinkerwink]

126. I agree......

He hasn't taken any crap crom the other Dems, and he sure isn't going to be taking any from Bush either ;-)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

127. Saletan Eviscerates Dean from what I can read:

Let's recap. A guy who has no foreign policy experience, opposed the war in Iraq, and went skiing after he escaped the Vietnam draft because of a bad back is calling a wartime president soft on defense.....

Was Bush (substitute: Dean) chastened by his embarrassing history?

Bush has no shame and takes no prisoners. ....So Dean has no shame as well, yet that's a good thing?

Believe what you will people. :shrug:

[Selwynn]

129. This is exactly why dean willl lose

"Let's recap. A guy who has no foreign policy experience, opposed the war in Iraq, and went skiing after he escaped the Vietnam draft because of a bad back is calling a wartime president soft on defense....."

[NewYorkerfromMass]

131. Dean camp is very good at ignoring the flashing warning lights here

extremely good.

[killbotfactory]

132. Nevermind that Dean is right

The only thing that matters is emotional arguements and false perceptions.

[Scott Lee]

137. Yah. Bash Dean at all costs.

[Scott Lee]

136. Every failing point you mention was possessed by Clinton

Lets recap: Clinton had no foriegn policy experience, opposed the Vietnam War, and got to hang out in Oxford rather than be drafted.

And yet he won. Twice.

Facts. They aren't just for breakfast anymore.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

138. Fact: 9/11 happened- 3000 Americans dead and billions in economic losses

that one fact is bigger than anything Clinton was ever up against.

[Hep]

144. Sorry

I'm not going to buy into the freeper notion that 9/11 changed everything. We'll find out.

[killbotfactory]

145. Then they sure as hell won't vote for Kerry!

Kerry just called for opening up relations with the terrorist sponsoring nation of Iran! They're part of the "axis-of-evil"(tm)! They're on their way to building illegal nukes to destroy Israel, and we are in a war against terror!

Kerry even wanted more time for those useless inspections in Iraq. It was obvious they were hiding something and Bush acted!

Just what American's want, a democrat who's soft on terrorist sponsoring states in the post 9/11 world.

9/11 changed everything, and Kerry is unelectable.

This message brought to you by the Democratic Nihilist Coalition (DNC): "The bitter crank wing of the democratic party"

[Scott Lee]

146. And what does that have to do with pork belly futures?

9/11 is not an excuse to be a fucking asshole. Dean knows this and won't let Bush* get away with it.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

148. 3 strikes to all 3 of you.

not a mention of Clinton in one of them.

[killbotfactory]

159. When will the Kerry Corps put down the kool-aid

and face the fact that Kerry is simply unelectable? Hasn't his horrible campaign proved this to you yet? I don't want four more years of Bush, which a Kerry nomination will guarantee.

[sangh0]

161. Still no mention of Clinton

Funny how they mention his name when it helps their arguments, but once their arguments have been blown away by the facts, they stop talking about Clinton.

[killbotfactory]

162. Clinton has no bearing on Kerry's unelectability

There's no reason to mention him.

Kerry = 4 more years of Bush!

[sangh0]

149. Fact: Dean is no Clinton

Clinton was a liberal who sometimes acted like a moderate. Dean is a moderate who pretends to be a liberal sometimes.

Clinton fought to preserve AA's use of race as a factor. Dean said we should replace race with class, which coincidentally, was what the Republicans were saying at the time

Clinton fought to protect social programs. Dean fought to destroy them by pushing a Balanced Budget Amendment. Coincidentally, the Republicans were also pushing a BBA at the same time.

Clinton praised liberals like Marion Wright Edelman. He even gave them jobs in his admin. Dean insults "liberals like Marian Wright Edelman"

[NewYorkerfromMass]

150. did Dean really sneer at Edelman?

....what an ASSHOLE Dean is!

[killbotfactory]

156. And then he flicked her in the back of the head

and called her a bitch

[bobbyboucher]

157. Derrr. Clinton wasn't up against a post 9/11

world because the terrorists didn't get over on him. They got over on Bush and the "grown ups", much to your surprise I'm sure. Why is that I wonder? How did those crafty terrorists get over on our multi-multi-multi-multi billion dollar intelligence/military intelligence/military/NSA/airpost security/law enforcement/etc./etc./etc. without a hitch? If it wasn't for some passengers it would have been a perfectly executed plan pulled off without interuption.

There you go, I mentioned Clinton. He didn't get fucked in the ass by a bunch of cave dwellers.

[Scott Lee]

133. Is that why Saletan has given money to the Dean campaign?

".....in fact, I'm shaking so badly I can barely write his (Dean's) name on the check"

Damn! That kind of dislike is gonna buy a lot of campaign help!

[kerry-is-my-prez]

154. I was thinking "yea Dean!" and then you had to go slamming my

candidate. Typical.

[AmericanDem]

160. Dean is "NUTLESS", What the fuck does he know about defense.

Now here is the pot calling the kettle black. Two lil rich boys having words with one another. Fucking Lame as it gets.

If you think those were strong words. What would you think if the Major Media started carrying words by Clark. If it weren't for the GOP and Major Media tag team pumping Dean up, this light wieght would have been swept under the rug long ago!

http://www.hermes-press.com/HDean/dean_republican.htm

[polpilot]

163. One doesn't have to jump off a tall building to 'understand' gravity.

Dean '04...The New Democratic Leader of The NEW Democratic Party.

[demodewd]

169. re:NEW

The New Democratic Party...anti-globalist..pro regulatory..anti imperialist

[Scott Lee]

171. Kerry was a common grunt. What the fuck does HE know about defense?

Unless of course the Command long ago ceded all operations to the lowest military ranks?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

178. Kerry commanded a boat and crew of 5

grunt? That would be the sound of Dean hitting the slopes.

[Scott Lee]

179. And this gives him foreign policy experience?

does that mean The Skipper of the SS Minnow would have made a better president back in 1968?

[Ksec]

168. Being shrill doesnt win elections

I only wish Dean werent so weak on military, what, with him being a draft dodger an all.

[Scott Lee]

170. But being right does.

And just because you keep repeating a lie doesn't make it the truth.

It is a lie that Dean is a "draft dodger". Educated people already know the truth.

[Ksec]

172. I apologize

I shouldnt have wrote that. It was wrong and I am sorry. I know he didnt dodge.