Dean Detractors: Why do you balk at Dean?

[Gringo]

Poll question: Dean Detractors: Why do you balk at Dean?

Just curious!









For the record, I met Dean this summer, and I think he's great. I think all the negative stuff being spread around is right-wing media hype and some mudslinging by Clarkies and Kerryites.

[vi5]

1. Not a Dean detractor but a Dean skeptic.....

I think he's based his campaign largely on being anti-bush and being very angry. Which is justified and which is great and which gets us all riled up.

My worry is not that he's too left but that he's based too much of his campaign and his persona in being the "angry, anti-bush guy".

Unfortunately I don't think that is going to appeal to enough swing voters to get elected. We're going against an incumbent with a lot of momentum, despite the cracks in the armor. I think it's going to take a lot more than being angry to convince people to vote for the dem candidate.

[sendero]

31. I suppose...

... that is a valid concern. However, I suspect and expect the "tenor" of Dean's campaign to metamorphosize over time. I don't expect to see him running the same campaign after the nomination, should he get it.

Almost everything he's done so far convinces me that he will know when it is time to shift gears and appeal beyond the base.

[vi5]

46. I hope you're right....

And in and of itself the technique of moving to the side for the nomination and then the center for the general election is a normal move.

I just think with media the way it is now and with the way things are spun it is harder and harder to do that nowadays, no matter how much he may want to.

[knowledgeispower]

75. He has shown himself to be quite the politician

I think he will tone down the anti-Bush rhetoric for the general election, but keep in mind that the independents (where the elections are won and lost these days) really ARE pissed off at Bush, and thus will be sympathetic to Bush-bashing as long as some kind of alternative is offered as well. I think Dean is smart enough to know that and capitalize on it.

[deminflorida]

2. I don't dislike Dean....

but, his plan to roll back the entire Bush Tax Package is paramount to raising Taxes on the Middle Class of America. I know it's the only way he sees to fund universal health care but it nixes any chance Dean has with me. So it's a policy issue, nothing personal. I do like his fire, and most of the rest of his platform. For me however, the Tax issue is a show stopper.

[HFishbine]

11. Question

Is the "tax issue" a show stopper because you don't want your taxes affected, or because you think it makes him less likely to be elected?

[deminflorida]

15. It's the one issue, that will cause Dean to lose the general

Election, period. It's the one issue, that isolates him from what his base should be...and that is Middle Class America. I firmly believe Dean can win without the south, but he can't win without the south and swing voters. The majority of swing voters are middle class Americans, by the way.

[HFishbine]

35. Thanks

for an honest answer. I'm a Dean supporter and I too am a little nervous about how Dean will clear this obvious hurdle. His present course seems to assume that given the choice between health care, a cranking economy and a balanced budget or tax breaks, most Americans will choose the former. You disagree. I'm uncertain. Either Dean has accurately assessed the will of the middle class, or he will moderate his position, or he will lose.

[no name no slogan]

95. The tax issue killed Mondale in 1984

Although it wasn't the sole cause of his defeat, the tax issue severely hurt Mondale in 1984.

I remember the debate where it came up, too: there was a question to both Reagan and Mondale on whether they would raise taxes during their administration. Reagan said that he'd flatly refuse to raise taxes (a lie, which many folks also knew). Fritz said that he WOULD raise taxes, and finished with a line that went something like "my opponent said he wouldn't raise taxes but he will anyway. I just told I would raise taxes. He didn't tell you the truth. I just did."
(not a verbatim quote, but very close to it, IIRC).

If Dean gets caught in this trap set by the much shrewder and much more effective GOP spin machine, he could end up making a statement like Fritz did. That would hurt him amongst the "moderates" he'll more than likely go after if he gets the nomination.

[Eloriel]

154. Before the Bush tax cut

NO ONE (except one-note Republicans) were calling for tax cuts. Further, in poll after poll after poll the majority of Americans said they'd rather NOT get a tax cut and use the money for other things, mostly social spending.

I think most people would opt out for: cutting the deficit and getting healthcare. The healthcare alone would MORE than make up for the tiny tax cut most middle Americans got, if they got one at all.

Eloriel

[Gringo]

16. That is GOP media spin.

The fact is, income taxes on the vast majority of Americans before the Bush tax cuts were not onerously high. Compared to the last 70 years or so, they were quite low, actually. 92% of Bush's cuts went to the top 2% of income earners, or something to that effect.

I got a slight increase in my EIC refund, but I'd gladly give that back to stop the irresponsible debt explosion.

Anyway, I see these sorts of income tax cuts for the rich as part of a continuing attempt by the GOP not to reduce the overall tax burden, but to shift it ever downward. The rich may have gotten a cut, but the states & localities have been pressured by cuts in federal dollars to raise state & local taxes - and THOSE taxes disproportionately affect the middle and working classes.

Anyway, I'm sick of hearing households making 120K/year calling themselves "middle class". How the hell is a person in the top 25% of income earners "middle class"? And I'm even more sick of them whining about how they can't afford the extra trip to Cancun or the fancy private boarding school for Amber this year because of their terrible tax burden.

I work my ASS off, and can't even afford to buy a house, like a HUGE number of people in the increasingly expensive cities. Why would you support taking the tax burden off of the wealthy and putting it on a person like me?

[deminflorida]

32. No, it's my spin....

Period. I don't make $125,000 a year, and I too work my butt off to support two children. I don't own my own house, either. I am middle-class America. Rolling back that entire Tax package no matter how YOU or the GOP spins it for that matter means increasing Taxes on middle-class America period. Let's not start the WMD, WMD, WMD, repeat tactic of Fox News. Dean needs to re-address the issue if he doesn't want to lose his base. By the way, I've never been to Cancun, and my daughter attends public school as if that makes any difference and to clarify the record, I would gladly pay a little extra tax to see Bush gone as well, but the getting the majority of middle class American swing voters to do the same, you tell me how Dean is going to do that.

[Gringo]

84. Who mentioned WMD?

"I would gladly pay a little extra tax to see Bush gone"

Well, if you are really middle class, that's what you'd pay: a little.

If Dean can clearly enunciate what those tax cuts for the rich are actually costing those of us in the middle class (and ultimately our grandchildren), he should be inoculated against such criticism.

[Zomby Woof]

86. get used to it

If you honestly and rationally question Dean or his policies, you are obviously a right-wing dupe or a plant from the Clark or Kerry campaigns. :eyes:

And people wonder why some of us mock the Deancult.

[Gringo]

89. I NEVER accused or even implied that.

His comment was recycled GOP spin. That doesn't make him a repug or whatever.

I've defended Clark too. I think it's unfair to brand him as a GOP/DLC plant or the expression of Ike's MIC fears. I simply don't want him as my first choice for a nominee. I prefer someone who has worked for years on behalf of causes that I tend to believe in, rather than someone who voted for Reagan, and came up through the military ranks, which is all about conformity and NEVER questioning authority - not my preferred mindset. That being said, he deserves all the praise he gets for his academic credentials and fine service record. He's just not my first or even second choice is all.

Why are you guys so quick to think someone is calling you a "freeper"? GOP spin is GOP spin, I've been known to repeat it myself.

By the way, if I'm not mistaken, the Bush "tax cuts" are temporary, and susnset in 10 years, anyway. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Zomby Woof]

97. evidence?

Do you have evidence that all of this horrible, inhumane, wretched, uncalled-for, detestable, baby-eating, ugly, vicious, vile, mean, and evil Dean criticism is from "GOP talking points"? Care to provide sources, or so you just have emotions to rely on? I don't read up on what those idiots are saying, so you'll have to help us here.

You may not be saying Dean critics are freeps or whatever, but saying that our arguments against him are from the GOP playbook is just as insulting and intellectually dishonest.

[Gringo]

115. IT IS GOP spin

It is the same GOP spin I hear repeated every night on Fox. "Repealing Bush's temporary tax cuts for the rich early" becomes "Dean wants to hike taxes on the middle class" THAT is dishonest, and if it's being repeated ad nauseam on FOX, it is by definition, GOP SPIN.

[Zomby Woof]

135. you must be a glutton for punishment

Watching that tripe.

Well, I never made such claims about Dean. He's a fiscal Hooverite conservative, so what happens to the tax cut rollbacks is anybody's guess - IF he can get it through a GOP-controlled Congress.

[wtmusic]

17. This is a myth of the current administration

most middle-class wage earners will receive little or no tax relief from the current cut.

For a great analysis of the Bush tax cuts see Paul Krugman's 'The Great Unraveling'. We not only need to repeal all the cuts--we need to do it now.

[sangh0]

23. You're misrepresenting Krugman

Krugman does NOT say we MUST repeal all of the tax cuts or that we NEED to do it NOW.

[wtmusic]

33. You're misrepresenting my post

I never insinuated that. Krugman's book came out before the latest round, but he does say that the 2002 cuts were irresponsible and that the US economy is headed for an Asian-style implosion around the year 2010.

Which tax cuts are you supporting? Do you have a better time to balance the budget than right now?

[sangh0]

38. I am?

You said "For a great analysis of the Bush tax cuts see Paul Krugman's 'The Great Unraveling'. We not only need to repeal all the cuts--we need to do it now"

That sure sounds a lot like "Krugman says we to repeal all the cuts now", but that part IS in another sentence from the one about Krugman. To be clear:

Are you saying that Krugman thinks we MUST repeal all the tax cuts, and he thinks we MUST do it NOW?

Or is that your opinion?

Which tax cuts are you supporting? Do you have a better time to balance the budget than right now?

I support middle class tax cuts, and IMO there are better times to balance the budget than right now.

[wtmusic]

43. It sure sounds a lot

like you feel comfortable with the logical leap of taking conclusions I have drawn from the book, and assuming they are quotes from Krugman.

[sangh0]

54. Huh?

What logical leaps are you talking about? Krugman wrote in the NY Times that while he PREFERS that all the tax cuts be repealed, there is no NEED to do so, and that it might be politically impossible to do so. Furthermore, at no time has Krugman said "we MUST repeal ALL the tax cuts"

[wtmusic]

56. broken record...

let's start with this--where did I quote Krugman saying, 'we MUST repeal ALL the tax cuts?

[sangh0]

61. I asked you about that, and you ignored it

In one of my earlier responses, I indicated that I was unsure if that was your opinion or if you asserting Krugman's opinion. SPecifically, I asked:

Are you saying that Krugman thinks we MUST repeal all the tax cuts, and he thinks we MUST do it NOW?

Or is that your opinion?

You didn't answer, so when you ask me "where did I quote Krugman saying, 'we MUST repeal ALL the tax cuts?" my answer is "I don't know. That's why I asked"

I'll ask again...Are you saying that Krugman thinks we MUST repeal all the tax cuts, and he thinks we MUST do it NOW, or is that your opinion? (your original post seemed to be stating Krugman's but I could be wrong)

[wtmusic]

65. let me make this very simple for you

based on overwhelming evidence presented in Krugman's book, it is my conclusion that we need to address the deficit right now by repealing all of the Bush tax cuts, possibly favoring even a mild tax increase.

That's not misrepresenting Krugman at all. Back to square one. Sheesh.

[HFishbine]

You'll never win this battle

You're relying on intellectual honesty. It won't work.

[Hep]

70. IGNORE

That's all you need. Life improves by a factor of 7 when you hit that little button.

[sangh0]

71. So it's YOUR conclusion!!

Thanks for the answer.

In that case, I apologize for my mistake. The way you worded it, I thought you were asserting Krugman's position. I now see that's wrong. It's your opinion.

[wtmusic]

74. I'm proud of you

A+

:silly:

[KittyWampus]

117. No, Krugman Supports Tax Cuts For Those That Can Use Them

Like the middle class- the ones Dean wants to repeal.

Why Doesn't Dean want to cut Pentagon funding?

THAT WOULD TAKE CARE OF TWO BIRDS WITH ONE STONE.

We'd have more accountability in the Pentagon, more money to spend on HealthCare & Education and it MIGHT help keep the NEoCons in check.

Oh yeah, that's right... Dean has no Foreign Policy experience and or any Military Credentials... so he is vulnerable to being called Soft on Defense.

[Hep]

123. for those who can se them?

You don't think riuch peoepl can se their tax cuts? Interesting logic.

I'm in the middle class, and Dean can have my $2 per week from this Great Middle Class Tax Cut you speak of.

[KittyWampus]

125. Yes, USE Them By Spending & Stimulating Economy

Economics 101... but I suppose you were trying to be 'smart' :eyes:

YOU may have only gotten $2 weekly that you don't need but other families got child tax credts etc.

There is no way Dean can spin this in his favor and it's amusing that you don't respond to his inability or unwillingness to cut PENTAGON FUNDING.

[sangh0]

128. They try to twist any word they ecan grab onto

How sad is it that the only argument Hep has is with your use of the word "use"? I understood what you meant.

[Hep]

132. So rich people can't spend money?

Getting it yet? Saying that we need to give tax cuts to people who can use them is so stupid, if only because EVERYONE can use money. Rich people, poor people ALL can spend money to stimulate the economy. The problem is, NO ONE DOES IT. Rich people invest, poor people pay off debt. That's why these tax cuts are so stupid.
Even the middle class ones.

Child tax credits are tantamount to buying votes. You can try to convince me that parents have NO IDEA how expensive raising kids is, but you know what? It's a CHOICE. No one is asking anyone to have kids. And taking MY tax money to write a check to a parent when that money can be better spent helping build a school or providing health care to that kid is offensive.

And I'll tell you right now, the last thing the pentagon needs is a budget cut. In case you haven't noticed, we're having trouble with the current levels of funding. I won't be made to feel dumb for believing that we;re going to have to PAY to get out of this mess. Dean doesn't have to spin anything in his favor. You have nothing against him. AS USUAL.

[sangh0]

145. More straw men

No one said rich people CAN'T spend money. Some have referred to the FACT that the rich don't HAVE TO spend the money, and often don't.

[Justice]

118. An Important Clarification

no offense to you wtmusic, but it would be much significant if Krugman said it than if it was your opinion.

It is an important issue. What if that is the issue for a swing voter -- a middle class swing voter. If I vote for the Democrat who supports a repeal of ALL tax cuts (even the middle class) then I get a tax increase. If I vote for Bush, no tax increase (foolishly believing you won't have to pay the piper one day).

So if the Democrat who wants to repeal ALL tax cuts cannot get elected -- then guess what - we are stuck with 4 more years of failing policy.

However, if a Democrat supporting repeal of some of the tax cuts can get the support of the swing voter - then amen, democrats get in.

[KittyWampus]

112. You Are SO WRONG ABOUT KRUGMAN- It Is PAINFUL!

REally!

Krugman points out that deficits in and of themselves are not problematic...

It's when they aren't used for direct economic stimulus.

Not only has Krugman specifically pointed out the folly of repealing ALL of the tax cuts as Dean has proposed... he has pointed out that gay marriage will be an issue.

Krugman, by the way, is a FREE TRADER and wrote SEVERAL columns in the recent past where he points out that PROTECTIONISM doesn't work.

[sendero]

Exactly how much...

.... tax relief did the middle class get? By my estimation, peanuts would be a fair characterization.

Being solidly in the middle class I will happily give up my peanut tax break to recover the massive largesse of tax breaks given to the rich.

[blm]

3. I distrust anyone whose trecord of governance was very centrist but who is

campaigning currently as a populist. I am a liberal who was angry at those Democrats on the right who pulled the party further to the right for the last ten years. Dean was on that right wing doing the pulling during that time period, known for his compromising centrism and his pushes for deregulation.

Now he tries to sell himself as a fighting populist, when he never was one as governor. Some of you buy it, others of us do NOT buy it and see it as further deception by Dean.

[wtmusic]

20. You certainly have a fondness for labels blm

'centrist', 'populist', 'liberal', 'to the right', 'right wing'.

I am lost in your argument. Please provide definitions.

[blm]

153. Dean uses labels and you have no qualms?

March 2002
http://www.thestate.com/mld/state/2794665.htm

>>>>
Dean, a medical doctor, describes himself as "a bit unusual" for a Democrat. For one thing, "I'm very conservative about money," he said. Also, he pointed out, he has been endorsed by the National Rifle Association.

"I have trouble with the liberal wing of my own party," Dean said.
>>>>>

Or how about this slap "...liberals like Marian Wright Edelman" or the "looney left" from Dean's hit parade?

Only Dean is allowed to use labels to make a political point?

[knowledgeispower]

80. Interesting that you don't distrust a guy that was anti-Vietnam war...

yet voted for the IWR (this being Kerry of course). He knew what the Bush admin was getting us into and went along with it anyway. Why?

And to answer your criticisms of Dean, he was much more of a populist as Governor than people realize. Take the School Equalization bill that he signed into law as an example. That leveled the playing field between schools of rich communities and schools in disadvantaged communities. You can't get much more polulist than that.

[TLM]

85. Shhhhhhh facts are bad, they get in the way of Dean Bashing...

Dean told hardcore far left greens who wanted zero development in VT that they were wrong, so he's an evil republican. And the peole of vermont are just so stupid they can't see how republican Dean is.

[sangh0]

93. "Facts"???

Since when is "He knew what the Bush admin was getting us into and went along with it anyway" a "fact"?

[blm]

100. On balance he was more centrist and a compromiser

who scorned the left in Vermont publically. Um...that's what Zell Miller gets grilled for here at DU. It's one thing to be an honest centrist, it's another to be a centrist who also uses every opportunity to mock liberals.


By ROSS SNEYD

Associated Press Writer

>>>>>>
He’s actually a lot more moderate — many would say conservative — than the reputation he’s built during his campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination.

Many of the people who were his allies and adversaries in Montpelier over his 20-year political career have been quietly bemused by the liberal persona he’s built as he campaigns in Iowa and New Hampshire, especially through his outspoken opposition to the war in Iraq.

>>>>>

Dean kept his distance from his party’s liberals during his governorship.

"He seemed to take glee in attacking us at every opportunity and using us as a way to form alliances with more conservative elements," said former state Sen. Cheryl Rivers, a leader of the state Democrats’ liberal wing and former chairwoman of the powerful Senate Finance Committee.

Dean fashioned himself a position in the political center of Vermont politics even as the state has moved steadily to the left.
>>>>>>

[TLM]

83. You keep repeating this over and over... and it never gets any closer

to being true.


Dean governed as a moderate democrat and is running as one now.

You HATE the fact that Dean beat Kerry, that's ALL your attacks are based on. You accuse Dean of being so right wing, yet he was re-elected a record 5 times is one of the most liberal states in the union.

In VT Dean's main issues were healthcare, child care, education, and balanced budgets. Dean's main issues now are healthcare, child care, education, and balanced budgets.

So where is this huge change? I mean it isn;t like Dean voted for the patriot act, then made a big Dean about how he was now agaisnt it. It isn't like Dean voted for the Iraqi war, and now claims to be against it.

Frankly BLM if you are so bothered by guys who have a campaign that doesn't mesh with their voting record, how can you support Kerry?

[Scott Lee]

139. I don't suppose you voted for one Bill Clinton, did you?

He certainly wasn't the same guy in the cat's chair in the Oval Office as he was in Arkansas, and that's a good thing.

What is you problem you have with people changing, adapting themselves to new realities and acting accordingly? This is mystifying.

[blm]

141. Converting in an election year after 11 years governing differently?

You buy it, I don't. Simple enough. I see Clinton as a moderate with the heart of a liberal. I see Dean as a centrist with the core of a Libertarian.

[Scott Lee]

146. How many "centrists" that you know hold these positions:

Opposition to the Iraq War

Pro Gay Marriage (call it civil union if you want)

Pro universal health care

Pro union?


Answer: You don't, because those are not "centrist" positions.

[sangh0]

157. Plenty

Many centrists opposed the Iraq invasion. My mom for one.

Most centrists support civil unions.

Most people support universal health care. Single payer is a differnt story.

Most union members are centrists.

[blm]

159. You're wrong, Dean is not pro-gay marriage

and when he had the opportunity to advocate for gay marriage chose not to and instead promoted the civil unions compromise.

He only shifted more pro-union this year. Pro-union would not advocate right -to -work as a state's rights issue. Dean also was a global free trader as governor and only recently switched positions to favor fair trade.

Dean wasn't against the Iraq War, he was FOR the IWR as outlined in Biden-Lugar which STILL allowed for Bush to make the final decision on whether use of force would be used. He also said Bush could wait for 30 days more for inspections and THEN use force.

[youngred]

4. I don't dislike him and would gladly vote for him if he's nominated

but he's slipped in my estimation because of his attitude towards everyone else running and his arrogance in regards to the race. I get the feeling he's so assured of victory in his own mind that he thinks he deserves it and any challenge to it is beneath him. That is just the vibe. I dig most of his platform and like I said wouldn't mind voting for him, but that aire of arrogance keeps me from backing him in the primaries

[sendero]

36. Funny...

... because six months ago your characterization would have described John Kerry perfectly. :)

[blm]

5. I distrust anyone whose record of governance was very centrist but who is

campaigning currently as a populist. I am a liberal who was angry at those Democrats on the right who pulled the party further to the right for the last ten years. Dean was on that right wing doing the pulling during that time period, known for his compromising centrism and his pushes for deregulation.

Now he tries to sell himself as a fighting populist, when he never was one as governor. Some of you buy ihis election year conversion, others of us do NOT buy it and see it as further deception by Dean.

[Scott Lee]

140. Do you think repeating this makes it true?

[MariaS]

6. I don't care for Dean

because of one of the debates that I saw him in, and I can't remember which one, he made the statement that he didn't care if 70% of the people disagreed with him he was going to do what he thought was right. This struck me as a bad statement and one that was more in line with the current Republican adminstation.

[Hep]

8. Eh

Because the bush administration is always pulling for what's right?

Dean was talking about signing the civil unions bill.

[sangh0]

14. Straw man

No one said that "the bush administration is always pulling for what's right".

The bush administration is always pulling for IT THINKS is right

[wtmusic]

Right is relative

Dean is pulling for what he *thinks* is right too.

[sangh0]

29. SO what?

I was addressing Hep's deceptive straw man, and I said nothing about Dean. Furthermore, my statement pretty clearly implies that "right is relative"

[MariaS]

40. Anytime a politician

disagrees with 70% of the people imo that is not a good thing so I guess I am missing your point. I took it to mean he would do what he wants regardless of majority opinion.

[Hep]

42. Well

at one point more than 70% of americans thought slavery was OK.

I think you should be wary of taking up a "majority rules" standpoint.

[sangh0]

47. And I think

you should be wary of thinking being in the minority is a garauntee of rightousness. Sometimes, when so many people think you're wrong, they're right. Not always, but anyone who is so certain they're right in the face of such overwhelming disagreement is a bit too arrogant for my tastes.

They might still be right, but a little doubt rarely hurts.

[wtmusic]

22. Understandable

unless you accept the notion that sometimes a leader may have the vision to know what's better for a nation than 70% of the populace.

I buy that.

[Jerseycoa]

7. Distrust growing

I didn't start out distrusting Howard Dean, but the more I learn about him the lesser he seems.

[Hep]

12. Lemme guess

this distrust started growing around September? Maybe the 17th?

[sangh0]

19. Another straw man Hep?

Instead of "guessing" (if you were honest, you'd describe it as "a (not so) subtle inference") why don't you just ask why?

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

55. Do you not understand the word "said"?

It doesn't always refer to a "quote"

Dean said he went to the draft board HOPING he would get deferred. He did.

And you think it's "distorting" to say that Dean was happy when he got exactly what he was hoping for.

[Melinda]

59. One can assume he was happy - claiming he SAID it however is a lie

Can you not tell the difference? Again, you lose more and more credibility with every word you type, jeebus sangh0. Give the distortions a rest, or at the very least claim credit for your opinion - but quit misrepresenting your "opinion" as words that come from Dr. Dean's mouth.

[sangh0]

63. You're as literal as a fundie

For ordinary humans, saying "GHW Bush said he wouldn't raise taxes" when referring to his "Read my lips..." statement would not be considered a distortion.

but quit misrepresenting your "opinion" as words that come from Dr. Dean's mouth.

Now you're lying. If wanted to make it look like I was quoting what came out of Dean's mouth, I would have used quotes.

So why don't you provide a link to my lie, so everyone else can judge it for themselves? It's curious how I'm willing to have my lie displayed, but you're not.

[Melinda]

73. Umm, the link is up there ^^^ and your words are available for all to see

And if you took the time to actually read the posts, you would have seen it ... curious how you seem to have missed it; could it be you just wanted to call me a liar? Even more curiouser how you yourself claim ownership of "my lie" - twice.

But thanks for that - now please, no more.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

147. You edited the post to include the link

and then wonder how I missed it.

AT least people can now read what was said and ask themselves why I would post the link to Dean's words if I were trying to deceive

[HFishbine]

60. WTF?

"I never quoted Dean saying he was "happy". In the post you are referring to (and if you have link, please post it so everyone can see how you lie) I said that Dean said he was happy to avoid serving."

Translation: "I never said he was happy. I said he was happy."

[sangh0]

67. Nope

The proper translation:

I didn't say that Dean said the word "happy". I said that Dean was happy he got a deferment.

[HFishbine]

78. Your own words will suffice

"And Dean's saying he was happy about this is NOT going to help him win those people's votes."

You clearly were not describing your impression of Dean's mood. You clearly wrote that Dean was saying he was happy.

Unless you have an alternate explaination for the meaning of "Dean's saying," which I'm sure you do, it's blatantly obvious that you were putting words in Dean's mouth to disinegenuosly advance your argument.

(Your original post: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=810037#810091)

[Melinda]

69. Or.....

Translation:

"I never said that Dean said he was happy. I said that Dean said he was happy."

The mind boggles. :eyes:

[sangh0]

72. So where's the link

You're so big on proof, but we're still waiting for you to link to the post where you say I lied.

Isn't it curious how I'm eager for you to publicize my lie, while you're not?

[Melinda]

77. It appears the mods deleted the post with the link.. alerting them sangh0?

Here it is - again:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=810037#810091

On edit:

The mods did not delete my post with the link - my bad for the back handed remark to sangh0 about alerting them.

[sangh0]

92. Your complaint

is that I should have said "Dean was happy..." instead of "Dean said he was happy". The cliam that I was deceptive is undermined by the fact that I linked to his words.

If I really wanted to deceive, I wouldn't have posted the link.

[Melinda]

81. And here are your exact words:

And Dean's saying he was happy about this is NOT going to help him win those people's vote.

[Jerseycoa]

25. Guess all you want

Clark wasn't my first horse in this race, only the final. If you want to know, it's the public financing sleaze job and how Dean supporters see nothing to worry about in that regard that's turned the corner for me. Take it or leave it, that's what it is.

[Hep]

41. um

His campaign isn't publicly financed? Or you think he's lying? Be more clear.

[Jerseycoa]

105. More Clear

March 8, 2003

He promised to make it an issue in the Democratic primaries if any of his rivals decide to skip public financing, as President Bush did en route to winning the Republican nomination in 2000.

“It will be a huge issue,” Dean said. “I think most Democrats believe in campaign finance reform.”

So, he issues a principled challenge to his opponents in March.

On November 4, he signs the Common Cause pledge to support public financing of presidential campaigns. Within days of that pledge, he opts out and it's all about beating Bush. I have no problem with him opting out in order to beat George Bush, that makes perfect sense.

But if he really believes his own words, he would abide by the spending limit for the Democratic primaries.

Yet, now it's December, and from what we hear from Dean supporters on DU, it's about beating Gephardt in Iowa and anybody else who gets in the way of the Dean machine.


Speaking of Dean's own words, though, :wtf:

Hardball

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Governor Dean, you said you would-you would bypass federal matching funds to compete financially with President Bush. But doing also frees you from spending caps in several key primary states. Will you still respect state spending limits? And, if not, how can you say you are committed to public financing, when you abandon the system because you can afford it, while others still abide by its limits?

DEAN: Well, actually, I abandoned the system not because we could afford it, but because we could beat George Bush that way. We planned the — look, our campaign is campaign finance reform. We raised three times as much money as everybody else in the last quarter, average donation, $77 from 200,000 people. That is campaign finance reform.

Interestingly enough, one-quarter of all our donors are under 30 years old. This campaign is about taking back this country and giving it to the generation who’s going to have to live with all the horrendous policies that George Bush is inflicting on us.

[Hep]

109. You don't seem to realize

that as of right now, Dean has less money than he would had he opted IN for matching funds. Did you know that? He'd already be at the cap if he took the funds, and right now he's not close to it.

So he's actually got LESS money now than he would had he taken the funds. Do you get that much?

Of course, if this were REALLY a big issue for you, you'd have problems with Gephardt's history of violating campaign finance laws. But then, I really don't think THIS is the reason you OPPOSE Dean.

[sangh0]

114. Straw man. Ignores the issue

The poster pointed out that Dean said he was opting out in order beat Bush*, and then used the money to beat Dems. You asked for details, and details were provided.

Now that your efforts to undermine the criticism have proven counter-productive, you switch tacks and argue about how much money Dean has, as if that was something being discussed here.

And not one word in defense of Dean's lie

[Scott Lee]

148. What Straw man? Do you even know what a "straw man" is?

It means setting up a false scenario and then attacking your opponent with it. What is false about what Hep said - that Dean so far has less money now than he would have had he opted in for public financing?

Nothing false there. It's the absolute truth. Hence, no strawman.

You might want to move beyond the high school debate terms here.

[sangh0]

150. The flase scenario

is that someone complained about how much money Dean has. No one did.

Nothing false there. It's the absolute truth. Hence, no strawman.

So if I responded with "No, the sky is blue, not green", that wouldn't be a straw man because it's true; the sky is blue.

[DemBones DemBones]

126. Hep, you keep jumping in here saying "Kerry did it!" or

"Gephardt did it!" but the thread TOPIC is what do people dislike about DEAN. If you want to find out what is disliked about other candidates, start a thread.


N.B. I paraphrased you above so don't say "I never said 'Kerry did it!' ' and so on.

[sangh0]

129. I call it "Attck the critics, ignore the issues"

which explains why Hep hasn't even tried to defend Dean against the complaints lodged against him in this thread

It's why Gringo, in the initial post, describes ALL of the Dean criticisms as right-wing spin.

[Hep]

134. You're so funny!

I mean LAUGH OUT LOUD funny!

A gep supporter comes in and says Dean ALLEGED issue with CFR is why they don't like him, while their guy has ACTUALLY broken CFR laws is Hilarious!

I thought the hypocrisy market was cornered by the right, then I join DU! Freaks!

[HFishbine]

111. I respect your opinion

But, you really should take into account the fact that if Dean had stuck to public financing, he would have been limited NOT ONLY on what he could spend against his democratic rivals, but what he could spend up to the convention. If the nomination is sewn up by the end of March, and if the winning candidate stays in the public financing system, he will face spending restrictions until August while Bush Co. will be spending freely throught the summer.

So, I take your point that right now Dean is doing battle with other dems, but the fact remains that, should he win the nomination, he will be in better shape to campaign against bush in the spring and summer than if he had stuck with public financing.

(On a side note: Not to play with the terminology, but getting an average contribution of $77 from individual supporters is, for all practical purposes, public financing.)

[sangh0]

121. Why don't address the issue of Dean's lie?

Yes, the limits also apply to pre-convention spending, and not JUST the money he spent against his rivals, but no one is arguing that here. The complaint here is that Dean said one thing, and then did another, an issue you do nothing to address besides ignoring it.

(On a side note: Not to play with the terminology, but getting an average contribution of $77 from individual supporters is, for all practical purposes, public financing.)

You are playing with terminology, just as those who say "With all due respect" often speak with little respect.

[HFishbine]

133. What lie?

?

[sangh0]

149. This lie

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10425

"...A Democratic nominee with no money is exactly what the Bush campaign is hoping for. A nominee who has no opportunity to fight back against the onslaught of the Bush attacks between March and August -- spending caps would leave a publicly financed Democrat broke by next spring.

But we found a third way -- for the people to change the system themselves....

In an ideal world, no candidate would have to consider declining public financing. But when one candidate declines it, and that candidate's opponent accepts a $45 million spending cap, the playing field is clearly not level. President Bush plans on raising around $200 million for a primary election in which he faces no opponent.

But I knew that this decision was not mine to make. Many of my supporters made those small-dollar contributions expecting that they would be doubled when the federal government matched them in January of 2004. But more importantly, this campaign has become larger than the candidate; it belongs to the community of more than 500,000 people who have built it. I concluded that this decision must be placed in their hands...

It was a leap of faith for many, if not all of them -- declining the matching funds means walking away from almost $19 million in January. But they believe, as I do, that we can compete with George Bush's money by doing what campaign finance reform intended in the first place: by asking two million Americans to donate $100 each to take back our country."

and this lie:
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=10389

"In a ceremony here today, Democratic presidential candidate Governor Howard Dean, M.D., announced that, following an overwhelming vote by supporters over the last two days, Dean for America would not accept public matching funds.

"Today by a 85 percent-15 percent margin the people who made this campaign have voted to decline public financing. We support public financing, but the unabashed actions of this president to thwart our democratic processes with a flood of special interests money have us forced to abandon a broken system," Governor Dean said.

"Our campaign has not been talk of campaign finance reform, it has been actual reform. Over 200,000 people have given an average of $77 to bring us here and they have now overwhelmingly refused to be intimidated by George Bush and his cronies," Dean added"

It includes some quotes from Dean supporters, none of which show any awareness that Dean would use the money for anything other than fighting Bush*

"* "As much as I believe in and support public funding of political campaigns, accepting federal matching funds would provide an unfair advantage to the Bush campaign. Once Governor Dean is elected President, I would encourage him to pursue a policy of support and even increase public funding of political campaigns while placing limits on total amounts that can be raised."

* "I'm still a strong supporter of campaign finance reform, but I don't think it makes any sense to agree to be bound by spending limits when Bush won't be. Nothing is more important than defeating him in November. Nothing."

* "I would like to see the campaign not have to opt out of federal matching funds. However I think with the monies that Bush is raising leaves no other alternative, but to continue to raise funds without the constraints required for matching funds."

I don't see where Dean or his supporters mentioned anything about using the money against Dems. All he speaks of is using the money to fight Bush*

Another page explains why Dean had reached the point where he was contemplating opting out of CFR. It has no mention of the other Dems. It does mention Bush*

http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=votetimeline

How We Got to This Decision

"Your success has led to this decision. By the end of September, you and more than 200,000 Americans had raised a total of $25.1 million for our campaign, with an average contribution of $77.

Your continued fundraising success in the past six weeks has put us on course to collect approximately $18.6 million in matching funds, beginning the first week in January. By combining the money you have raised with the $18.6 million in matching funds, you have essentially reached the $44.6 million cap that can be raised for the primaries. Therefore, this campaign will have to stop fundraising almost immediately if we accept the matching funds.

Most likely we will spend the $45 million primary funds by March and we will then be vulnerable to the $200 million collected by George Bush. Your campaign will not be able to spend any more election money until the convention at the end of July."

[HFishbine]

152. You'll have to do better than that

So, Dean and his supporters recognized the financial need to possibly be able to fight Bush during the period between securing the nomination and the convention. But, because he did not specifically also say that he would spend money to win the nomination, that's a lie?

Sorry, pal. No dice. You want to make claims that Dean lied, you'll have to point to a statement he made that he knew was false. But you can't. Instead all you have to offer are desperate and bitter manipulations that defy reason and logic. It's pathetic really.

Here's a clue how far fetched your accusations are. Repukes haven't hesitated to jump on Dean about his sealed records or his draft deferment. Yet, there is zero discussion about Dean "lying" about his reasons for backing out of public financing. Why? Because even they recognize it's not an issue. There was no lie. But thanks alot for doing everything within your power to discredit a highly qualified candidate at every turn. Your cause is certainly noble and you must be very proud of yourself.

[sangh0]

158. Nice spin

So, Dean and his supporters recognized the financial need to possibly be able to fight Bush during the period between securing the nomination and the convention. But, because he did not specifically also say that he would spend money to win the nomination, that's a lie?

No wonder it took you so many words to spin my opinion, which is simple:

Dean said the money was for fighting Bush. It wasn't.

Yet, there is zero discussion about Dean "lying" about his reasons for backing out of public financing. Why? Because even they recognize it's not an issue.

Keep dreaming. The Repukes WILL bring it up if Dean lasts long enough.

[mydawgmax]

9. He's too centrist

Other than the IWR position, his policies are really pretty centrist. IMO too focused on achieving a balanced budget too quickly, buys into states rights on a little more than I like (guns, gay marriage), and while I like the idea of rolling back tax cuts, rolling back all of them kind of misses an opportunity to make the tax system more progressive.

I like the energy he has created and if he gets the nomination I'll be all for him.

[sangh0]

10. Too many reasons to list

but here's a start

1) Lying about the other Dems and the Democratic Party as a whole
2) His numerous flip flops on important issues like AA, Medicare, NAFTA, Balanced Budget Amendment, CFR, energy dereg, etc and the lies he has told to justify those flip-flops
3) His claim to be an outsider, which is a lie
4) His supporters, who rarely address the issues that motivate criticisms and instead, attack the critic. The best it seems they can do to address the issue is to say "It doesn't bother me"

[_NorCal_D_]

49. I find #3

on your list to be a particularly outrageous claim. Hasn't Dean said that he chaired both the National Governors' Association and the Democratic Governors' Association? By the content of their websites it seems that they do quite a bit of negotiating with the 'cockroaches' in Washington. :eyes:

http://www.democraticgovernors.org/
http://www.nga.org/

[Bread and Circus]

13. I did like Dean until he called Clark a Republican and did a ...

few other misleading things.

Ultimately, I like him, which is kinda funny because I
usually criticize him on DU. I think he will probably win
the nomination. I really worry he will get beat by Bush.

I think he is interesting and his campaign (a la Trippi) moreso.

He will provide alot of entertainment if he runs vs. Bush.

He is not too left for me, actually he is very centrist, which
is just fine for me even though I am a lefty.

So, in summary, I won't be pleased if he wins the nomination
but it won't be the end of the world. I just hope he doesn't
sell out when he tries to win the "General Election".

[progressiverealist]

18. because I simply don't think he would beat Bush

Now, before you flame me for "buying into the corporate/DLC propaganda," let me explain:

I think there is a *chance* Dean could beat bush but it is not likely. Whomever the nominee is will have to pick of a few southern or western states to win and I don't think Dean can do this. I could envision a scenario where Dean wins the popular vote by winning NY and similar dem-leaning states by huge margins, but loses in the electoral college.

Unfortunately perception is everything and I think it will be easy to paint Dean as a draft-dodging northeast liberal. I know, AWOL bush... but since the Repubs own the media, that will always stay buried. And I also know that Dean is a moderate, but that's NOT the dominant perception, and will not be the dominant perception in the south and west.

Finally, I don't put much stock in Dean's grassroots/internet support. George W. Bush has a MUCH larger grassroots base, one that can collectively be catagorized as white evangelical christians. You can bet that every single southern baptist, assembly of god, pentacostal, and free church pastor will be beating the drum for Bush the "christian" every sunday.

Having said all that, if Dean is the nominee I will aggressively attempt to do what I can here in Wisconsin to see that he carries my state.

[HuckleB]

21. You forgot: "He's leading in the polls, therefore my candidate is not."

.

[_NorCal_D_]

24. Personally,

I find a campaign that runs solely on anger and slogans to be neither appealing nor inspiring.

At the same time I can certainly see why Dean is a front runner, as he channeled all of our anger towards Shrub n' friends before any other candidate. Nevertheless, I would urge you Dean supporters to take another look at this shrill, centrist Libertarian before you cast your ballot for him. B-)

[PurityOfEssence]

26. I want a Democrat, not an Autocrat

I'm tired of his playing fast and loose with the truth against his opponents, his fatuous pronouncements that demand obedience, his thinskinned expectation of privilege and his general broad-front insults against his party's politicians.

The fact that he's too conservative for my tastes is another issue, but even though he's being a bit cagy to get the nomination, I wouldn't say he's being outright deceptive. His policies are certainly within the tolerable range for me, but it's the personal abrasiveness, cocksuredness and rancor that bug me.

[Octafish]

27. I do not like thee, Dr. Dean (a poem).

I do not like thee, Dr. Dean.
The reason why may seem quite mean.
Unlike your image, you are no Green.
So I do not like you, Dr. Dean.

— Octafish, with apologies to Tom Brown

[_NorCal_D_]

30. Dr. Seuss

rip-off! B-):thumbsup:

[Octafish]

66. I wish!

When it comes to good writing, the motto I follow is: "Don't avert your eyes, plagiarize."

Regarding this great poem, from "thomas," some scholar at Rice:

Written circa 1680.

Tradition has it that Brown, while a student at Christ Church, got into some sort of trouble and was taken to the dean, Dr John Fell. Brown was set to be sent down from Oxford, but Dr. Fell decided to waive the expulsion if Brown could translate, extempore, a Martial epigram. The above poem is the result; unfortunately, history does not record whether or not Brown's creativity was sufficient to stay the dean's wrath.

The original Martial epigram follows:

Non amo te, Sabidi, nec possum dicere quare;
Hoc tantum posso dicere, non amo te.
-- Martial

Brown's translation is an excellent one, succinct and faithful to the original (which reads something like this in English: "I don't like you, Sabidius, and I can't say why; all I can say is I don't like you"). More to the point, it's uncannily catchy; what ought by rights to be a snatch of doggerel has achieved immortality in a thousand and one compilations of quotable quotes. I wish I knew how he did it...

thomas.

John Fell: 1625-86, English clergyman. He was dean of Christ Church, Oxford, and bishop of Oxford. While at Oxford, he initiated an extensive building program and promoted the development of the Oxford Univ. Press. His chief literary work was his critical edition (1682) of St. Cyprian. He is probably best remembered today as the subject of Tom Brown's jingle

"I do not love thee, Dr. Fell,
The reason why I cannot tell;
But this alone I know full well,
I do not love thee, Dr. Fell."

-- The Columbia Encyclopaedia, at www.bartleby.com

http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/877.html

[xJlM]

28. Lies, changing statements, flip-flops...

The message sometimes seems to change daily. When I see the support he gets, I just scratch my head in amazement at the depth of intelligence. If he's the Democratic party's best hope, we're in serious trouble.

[Gringo]

37. THIS MAY BE A FIRST!

I think I may be the first Deanie to start an anti-Dean flame thread! Anyway, it's pretty instructive in that the responses give lie to the fact that Dean supporters are wary of talking about issues and specifics. Most of these gripes are either shallow observations, or based on false assumptions (like the notion that Bush's tax cut went to the middle class)

I think Dean is awesome. For those of us who watch TV news he may seem angrier than he is, since those are the clips they show. Anyone who has seen him speak at length, outside of a debate environment knows that he is VERY positive, and quite inspiring. I do concede that he ISN'T the strongest in a debate, but then again, Bush is one of the worst, and at least he doesn't have Gore's lispy schoolteacher demeanor.

[blm]

44. What shallow observations and false assumptions, specifically?

If you're a cebtrist, that's cool, I'd recommend Dean to any centrist. But, when did those who believe in liberal principles become persona non grata around here? When did their liberal principles that guide their decisions become "shallow observations" to you?

[sangh0]

52. CFR, NAFTA, nuclear waste, credibility

ideology, consistency, Affirmative Action.....these are all "shallow observations and false assumptions"

There couldn't possibly be a way to criticize Dean on substantive issues, right?

[Gringo]

88. OF course he was weaknesses on some issues

Hell, he's too centrist for may taste, but I KNOW that Dennis CAN NOT win. Not in '04 anyway.

A lot of people are judging him by what Fox News or MSGOP said, or by some silly sound bite, rather than actually looking at his position papers orreally listeing to him speak on his own.

Sure there are good points being made out there, but for every one of them, there are three saying "I don't like him because he was mean to Clark/called Clark a republican"

[sangh0]

98. Changing your tune?

In your first post, it was "I think all the negative stuff being spread around is right-wing media hype and some mudslinging by Clarkies and Kerryites."

Now, some of the negativestuff is true.

Sure there are good points being made out there,

There are also some good point in here.

but for every one of them, there are three saying "I don't like him because he was mean to Clark/called Clark a republican"

And Dean's honesty isn't a substantive issue?

[Gringo]

101. Yes he has warts, and yes, it's GOP/Kerry/Clark spin

No contradiction there. They are blowing small flaws way out of proportion.

As for honesty, where was he dishonest?

Clark WAS a republican, or at least a republican voter, and only registered as a dem recently. That's hardly a lie. If he's really come over, great. We have someone to replace that SOB Zell Miller, who should be kicked out of the party.

[blm]

103. But you LOVE the GOP/Deanie spin that Kerry is a "corrupt

Washington insider" and a "phony"...you know, just like Nixon's White House put out during Vietnam and Reagan-Bush's White House spread during BCCI and IranContra and now Deanies use for their own selfish political gain.

[Gringo]

106. You have me confused with some other Deanie

I like John Kerry a lot, and have been an admirer of his for years. He is definitely my second choice after Dean. With the exception of Lieberman, there is not one of these candidates that I dislike. However, they all have flaws, and all of the top contenders are slinging mud at Dean because he's the front-runner. I don't hate them for it, that's just the way the game is played.

[sangh0]

108. In Gringo's defense

I've haven't seen him post that about Kerry

[blm]

130. They have only told the truth.

And I know that you aren't a mudslinger against Kerry but, you claim that they throw mud at Dean without acknowledging any truth to what they have said or acknowledge that the Dean spin against them has been deceptive.

For instance, the mileage Dean has gotten claiming they gave Bush a "blank check" on IWR when he supported Biden-Lugar which had the same provision for which he rails against the others, that Bush be allowed the "determination" whether use of force is necessary.

[sangh0]

107. Dean was dishonest to say

that he was opting out of CFR in order to fight Bush*, and then start using the money to fight Dems.

Dean was dishonest to say he was never against using race as a factor in AA, when in 1995 he said "Not race, but class"

Dean has lied about his Dem opponents positions, and has even had to publicly apologize to Edwards for it.

Yes he has warts, and yes, it's GOP/Kerry/Clark spin

Right, Dean DOES have warts, but if anyone says it, it's "spin"

Clark WAS a republican, or at least a republican voter, and only registered as a dem recently. That's hardly a lie

Please note the wishy-washy tone you have to use in order to defend Dean here. "Clark WAS a republican" followed by "or at least a republican voter" (which is it?)

Clark has also voted for Dems. IOW, Clark is an Independent, not a Republican. Dean lied.

[Gringo]

110. Hey. I'm a loyal democrat.

I look at independents and libertarians as republicans. For all intents and purposes they are the same. If he had been a registered green it would be different.

He was a non-democrat who was very cozy with TONS of neocons, and voted for Red-Ink Reagan. Republican enough for me. Sorry you see it differently.

[sangh0]

124. You are wrong

Almost all libertarians are Repukes, but that's just not true of Independents, and it's a lie for Dean to say that Clark was a Republican.

He was a non-democrat who was very cozy with TONS of neocons, and voted for Red-Ink Reagan.

Maybe, but even if true, Clark is NOT a republican. I don't know why you would spin so much to defend a lie.

Republican enough for me. Sorry you see it differently.

And I'm sorry you think someone becomes a Republican simply because you think they are "Republican enough"

[Scott Lee]

143. Pot, meet kettle!

What gall. You make a daily multiple rantathon about how Dean is really a "centrist" parading as a "populist" using the same thinking that Gringo does, and then call him "wrong".

HINT: These ideological lines are all subjective, and everybody has a different threshold at which point a candidate becomes X or Y. They are not "wrong" for percieving this, it's where their lines are. Stop being so damn judgemental. It's so....so...republican.

[sangh0]

151. What are you smoking?

The wrong I referred to wasn't about Dean. Gringo was wrong to say that Independents are really Repukes.

[cally]

45. I think he does very poorly

in interviews. He seems to make too many mis-statements and has to clarify what he means too much. I also don't like that his background is somewhat similar to Bush. Wealthy, no military, quit drinking, and he seems disconnected to much of America.

I also think he is very thin skinned and chooses to attack the Democratic Party. I don't think he will have many coattails.

I will support him in the General Election, but I don't like him.

Shall we time how long it will take a Dean supporter to attack me?

[mikehiggins]

48. Dean vs Bush in the general election

It has to be said up front that I don't give a rat's ass about anything but that. As I've said before, here and elsewhere, I cannot see any reason, in a head to head contest, to think Dean will win.

Despite my position as a Clark-ie, I'm not saying Dean's bad, or shouldn't win, or that Bush should get anything but a one-way bus ticket back to Crawford. I'm saying I can't see any reason for Joe Six-Pack to turn away from the president in a time of war and towards Howard Dean.

I know many DU'ers don't buy into the "war" or think it legitimate, but there are less than 50,000 people registered here from all over the world. There are millions and millions of people who are going to trek into the polling booths who are not. These people don't understand how fragile the "recovery" is, or that it is just like anything else in Bush-topia, shoveling even more wealth into the hands of those who need it least.

They have been fed so many stories about the "war" that they really don't know what to think and they are being asked to choose between the guy who took the lead in our darkest hour, and some guy from Vermont who ran a state with less people than Staten Island.

I just don't see it.

If Dean is our candidate I think Bush will win, even without his brother and the Supremes. I also think Cheney will resign somewhere along the second term and the GOP dominated Congress will allow Bush to bring Jeb on board as VP, getting him set to run for President in 2008. You may think that is crazy, but look at what has happened in the last few years and tell me anything is off the table.

That is why I am not supporting Dean. If he wins the nomination I will do my utmost to get him elected, simply because I think this nation will be hard-pressed to survive four more years of Dubya.

[HFishbine]

58. You present an intersting choice

If I'm reading you correctly, it would seem the dems have two choices:

1) Rely on revealing the truth about Shrub, the administration and the war, with the idea that if people knew what we on DU know, they too would be "Anybody but Bush."

2) Accept that most Americans will choose under the illusion of false perceptions and offer a candidate who better appeals to the requirements of those falsities than Bush.

[mikehiggins]

90. Well, yes and no

1) There is a shot with exposing Shrub, especially with MoveOn and the others hammering him at every turn, as well as our primary candidates stepping up to bat (thanks Mr. Trippi) and taking shots at him. I don't think it will work, however, because it all blurs into a constant hum, especially when there are SO many things to be attacked that it becomes hard to distinguish betweent them. And, again, unless we get Bush in bed with a dead woman or a live boy, what is there we can attack him with that has not already been beaten into the ground?

2) Yes, most Americans will choose under the illusion of false perceptions. Most of us do this everyday. Is there a difference between Crest and Colgate? Between Buick and Pontiac? Only in the way they are presented.

Americans will go into the polls next year after a two month hammering with the images of the WTC coming down in flames, and the message will be "the job still isn't done...stay the course." There is a time period of about two months between the GOP convention and the general election. $200 million can buy a lot of air time for these ads, time which also will be unavailable to other ads refuting them. The truth will not necessarily be heard, etc., etc.

If our candidate can only talk about how he would do better than Bush what reason to listen to him? If our candidate has already done it better, his words carry a lot more weight.

It is strictly a political judgment and not what you might call a value-laden decision. If ABB is important, then we have to have a candidate that can talk about the economy if that is the issue and have the credentials to talk about the war if that is the issue.

I don't see Dean being able to fill those shoes and I think the default position of most AMerican voters will be to pull down the lever for Bush. Obviously I think the candidate who can get the voter to take a positive step into the future is Clark.

It is all about politics, not about values.

[Gringo]

94. I do admit

that Clark might have a better chance at winning than Dean. I think it's only a 1 or 2 % difference, though. It may be that we can't afford that 1 or 2 %, but I'm willing to bet that the millions of disaffected democrats and liberals who have sat out the last few elections will be more energized and more likely to turn out for Dean.

I like Clark, but he doesn't make me excited at all. What's to make some typical apolitical voter out there go vote for Clark when the perception is that he's a nice guy just 2 clicks to the left of Bush? I think a little fire this time may be just the thing to motivate the dormant base.

That's why I think the comparisons with McGovern & Mondale are wrong. McGovern & Modale were traditional liberals where Dean is not. They were both fairly lackluster and dull, especially Mondale, where Dean is not. Like it or not, Dean is a whole new breed of democrat, one who will not be cowed, and we need a lot more like him if we are to fight this unbelievable media onslaught.

[Jerseycoa]

116. Please elaborate

"...vote for Clark when the perception is that he's a nice guy just 2 clicks to the left of Bush?"

[mikehiggins]

142. Gringo

the perception isn't that he's a nice guy just 2 clicks left of Bush.

The perception is that he is a serious guy, a decorated war vet who became a general and risked his stars and took on his recalcitrant superiors to defeat a ethnic-clensing militarist intent on killing millions of Alabanian Kosovars who happened to be Muslims. A man who earned the respect of our historic allies (including Blair, of all people) and the disdain and hatred of Dick Cheney and the rest.

OR

He's a blood crazed, Waco-child killing war mongerer who makes Patton look tame and wanted to start WW III with the Russians.

ON THE OTHER HAND

while Clark was getting shot to shit in VietNam Dubya was flying around safe and secure in a cushy spot his daddy got for him.

while Clark was working his way up the ranks in the military, moving from one commendation to the next, Dubya was going from one failure to another, finding his peace of mind in booze and coke.

AND, OF COURSE

while we're still looking for bin Laden, and a hundred and fifty thousand troops can't find Saddam, Milosovich is not only in custody but Clark is going back to Europe to help him get the punishment he so thoroughly earned. Maybe, along the way, he'll take a stroll down Wesley Clark Boulevard, one of the streets named after him in Kosovo.

PERCEPTION:

Dubya is bungling this war and losing hundreds of US soldiers in the process; Clark won his without an American casualty.

And do we want to talk about Shelton's crack about ethics and character? Shelton sure doesn't. Nobody's heard from him since he made that crack.

But while we're on the topic, does anyone remember the yellowcake from Niger, and Wilson's wife?

The point is that Clark can be presented as an alternative to George Bush, not as a rejection of America's national security concerns. The American public has to view Clark as the man who can do the job, and do it better than the cowboy from Crawford.

ABBA's like me would vote for a ham sandwich before we'd vote for Bush but we have to give the rest of the nation a candidate they can live with, especially those GOPers who are disgusted with Bush but aren't going to vote for a Yankee or for a Washington insider, even though we think their lives depend on it.

2 clicks left of Bush? If you look at the record, you could make the case that Clark is left of Dean for pete's sake.

[mmonk]

50. mudslinging?

Don't know if Dean supporters can talk much on that one.

[ACK]

51. My issue is taking back all the tax cuts

Plays badly to the public and I have to go all Gore on this one and say the middle class and working class cuts were a good thing. The problem was of course it was a smoke screen for a giveaway to the rich.

Also, the word re-regulation was just nuts. WTF? Talk about corporate limits and putting restraints on out of control crooked business policies but calling it re-regulation is like putting a frame around a Repuke commercial. I am making their negative ads for them!! Yahoo.

Geez.

I love his spirit. The man is a fighter. I like the fact that the majority of his donations are from small contributors. I like the fact he knows how to organize on both the grassroots and new media level. This is all rocks.

I am still torn between Clark and Dean.

[knowledgeispower]

87. What middle class tax cuts?

The one time $300 rebate? The reality is that the middle class received VERY little and as a proportion to what they stand to lose from the tax cuts they are left far worse off. I agree that this might be a hard point to get across to the public (which generally thinks that tax cuts are good no matter what), but if anyone can do it I believe it is Dr. Dean. Keep in mind it has already been put out there that the tax cuts were all for the wealthy, so Dean does have a base to build on for this issue.

[ACK]

122. That is half the freakin' point

He does not have to say he is repealing all the tax cuts. He can repeal 99.9% of them and no one except the very richest in America will ever feel it.

Instead, he says I am for repealing ALL of them and opens himself up as a tax and spend liberal taking away the sharp edge of the sword when he talks about the borrow and spend Repukes.

[slinkerwink]

57. I hate Dean because he's a poopiehead and eats kittens

Who cares about a LIBERAL from Vermont that only has 600,000 people? Last night, I was walking in the woods, and he like, came up from behind, clobbered me on my head and took my purse. Darn that Dean! I really really really want my purse back. Every time he smiles, I want to puke because Clark has a much more beautiful smile.


<end sarcasm>

[mmonk]

62. are you sure

we're the ones starstruck?

[slinkerwink]

64. mmmm, I think you're as starstruck about Clark as we are about Dean

it goes both ways here.

[sangh0]

68. Hey GRINGO!!!! Is this the "shallow observations"

you were referring to?

[AntiCoup2K4]

76. Howard Dean hath committed great blasphemy by questioning the gods of DLC

and their profit er uh prophet St Terrance of Global Crossing. For that, he must be crucified!

/end sarcasm

[blm]

104. Dean PULLED the DLC further right when he was there.

You really believe his election year conversion to populism? You buy principles that are 11 months old?

[mmonk]

79. Why do we balk?

Nothing personal against Dean. Some of us balk at the postings here.

[dkamin]

91. This phenomenon is real

I was leaning Dean only 2 weeks ago, decided Dean yesterday. I was emailing with a friend who's working on the Clark campaign as to why I like Dean. She's otherwise very liberal, very reasonable, intelligent, and fair. But she immediately responded by saying that Dean couldn't win, that Dean struck people as too angry and arrogant, and that a vote for Dean in the primary was essentially a vote for Bush.

I like Clark, but if that's all he's got, it's not enough.

[mmonk]

96. Its not all he's got.

[Gringo]

99. Again, sounds like she's just parroting the usual media spin.

People who have met him and/or heard him speak at length know better. The media are out to get him, so they promote this mad dog image endlessly with out-of-context soundbites & clips.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

102. Dean has all of the negative associations of a "liberal" but he's not

That's my main problem. We have to carry the weight and defend against the attacks of Dean as a super liberal, but when we're done defending him we essentialy have yet another Republicrat/neo-liberal centrist.

Someone like Clark doesn't have that baggage, or those associations, but he's probably more liberal than Dean.

I also don't believe for one second that his "grassroots" are going to grow anymore than they already have, and Dean's personal appeal is vastly overrated, but people are too invested to even acknolwedge it.

Nevertheless, you have to give Dean a whole bunch of credit for running the best, most effective, and what looks like the most democratic, grassroots, and inclusive campaign. I hope no one underestimates how difficult it's going to be to beat Bush.

[Cheswick2.0]

113. he is not left enough and I don't trust him and he is too angry and he

waffles too much and I don't like his take on healthcare.... yeah and he says stupid stuff before he engages his brian.

If he is the nominee I certainly hope my opinion changes since I will working for his campaign.

[Gringo]

120. Fair Criticism

I have the same concerns, but have decided to work for his campaign unless he really screws up. The "dixie flag" brouhaha was just short of the limit for me. I do hope he works on that.

[mmonk]

119. How come it has to be "balk",

why can't it be we support someone else?

[eleny]

127. Just drawn to another candidate - not a detractor n/t

[Justice]

131. Using Term Detractor Shows Agenda

People are struck by different candidates - not that they are against other candidates. As an aside, I wonder how many of us support a candidate because we happened to see them in person.

I like some of what Howard Dean says.

I also evaluate a candidate based on IMO their ability to win over swing voters.

[Gringo]

136. Of course I have an agenda

Getting Dean the nomination, and then the presidency.

Anyway, would the words "hater, critic, opponent" have sat better with you?

I like a lot of things about Kerry, Edwards & Kucinich, I'm just not supporting them this time. I'm sick and tired of the "same-old, same-old", Dean is different, and I think he has a good chance to win.

[quinnox]

137. Too many reasons

One - Because he is a phony that has no principles, Dean will stick his finger in the wind to decide what stance he should take. Even if the stance is completely contradictory to his prior position.

Two- Because he doesn't exhibit leadership - see point one.

Three - Because he is a divider, not a unifier. He campaigns as if he is the one true Democrat come to save the party, I don't buy it.

Fourth- and most important, because he is the weakest candidate, with one exception, of the top bracket in a match vs. Bush. He would more than likely lose in a landslide.

Five- because he is a two-faced arrogant SOB, and I don't like him.

[teevee]

138. he can't win

he's a good guy with good ideas, but it won't fly wide enough to win him the election.

[Hep]

144. Be specific please

You HAVE to have SOME specifics to come to such a solid conclusion. Share them please.

[JohnKleeb]

155. not a Dean detractor, just a person who prefers someone else to Dean

Why do I prefer him, well lets see, I prefer his views on the issues and believe me I have my reasons. Its nothin against Dean personally or his supporters, just well hard to explain simply.

[TheDonkey]

156. I worry Dean cannot win easily

We need as much votes as humanly possible to crush Bush.
Dean's policy of taxes scares me most as "I" understand what he wants to do, Bush & Co.will warp it to win the election.

[BigMcLargehuge]

160. I am locking this

there's so much mud in here we can plant potatoes.

Big McLargehuge
DU Moderator