Anyone read Fineman's "Dean stumbles over sealed records: Dithering...

[AP]

over telling the full story only intensifies furor"?

http://www.msnbc.com/news/1000681.asp

I guess msnbc is mainstream-right, but Fineman is a media whore, so the rules require me to state my position on the article. My opinion is that it sums up pretty well which political/campaign issues have been raised over the sealed records hoopla.
 

The contretemps over Dean’s Vermont records hardly qualifies as a “crisis.” Still, Dean is the front-runner, and at this point in the campaign season, every detail of his life, career and actions is fair game, magnified and studied for clues to the kind of leader he might be. So far, the episode shows that Dean is a feisty guy (voters like that) with a tendency to shoot his mouth off (voters don’t mind that) who, when backed into a corner, dithers over telling the full story (voters don’t like that), doesn’t seem to know all of the latest facts (voters don’t generally notice that) and then tries to blame the staff (voters hate that). He’s managed to turn a one-day story into a week-long story, at least in Campaignland, and managed to generate curiosity and suspicion about exactly what the sealed papers contain.

[Hawkeye-X]

1. Jim Douglas (Governor R-VT)

has said that Dean does not need to unseal his gubernatorial records.

Hawkeye-X

[PROGRESSIVE1]

15. Maybe Howord "Freewhore" Feinman should listen to...

Vermonts Republican governor and shut his FReeper mouth about this!


:puke: MSGOP
:puke: Howie Feinman

[SEAburb]

27. Are we taking advice from Repugs now, as well as acting

like them. Sealing records is a Bushist thing to do. The hypocrisy on this issue here is staggering.

[Hep]

2. It must be on point if it supports what I already think

Why do so many people try to assert that Dean is the one who drags out these things? How exactly did DEAN himself make this a week long story, and how do we know it would have only been a day long story had Dean not pulled this manipulation of the media off?

[AP]

4. That's what the article tries to explain/argue/answer.

At this point, you can take up the points that Fineman raises.

[sangh0]

7. How Dean made it a week lonk story

He did it by falsely claiming (that means lie) that he was not releasing his papers in order to protect the privacy of private citizens. It's a lie because the law allows Dean to redact any info that would intrude on a citizens' privacy

[HFishbine]

13. Wrong

Dean is now a private citizen. He would have no authority over what may or may not be redacted from any records that may be made public.

[sangh0]

14. Wrong

The law allows Dean, as a private citizen, to have those parts redacted. It has nothing to do with Dean's position as a citizen - It has to do with protecting people's privacy. The law protects those people's privacy, not Dean.

[AP]

19. This came up in the context of the Presidency recently.

Clinton waived privilege on almost everything.

Bush then enacted an executive order which not only extended the scope of this privilege for a president's own records but said that the sitting president could invoke the privilege for a previous president.

What he wanted to do was prevent Clinton from being able to waive privilege on documents that made Clintonn look good and which were, implicitly, criticisms of Bush's failed policies.

There was a very brief debate in the "small" media about how the privilege actually belongs to the president whose documents they were, and subsequent presidents shouldn't be able to exercise dominion over their documents. Then the issue dropped from the radar.

Not sure where it stands. But I do remember the discussion that Clinton's documents are Clinton's, and it's his decision whether he wanted to exercise his privilege to keep them secret, and that Bush's move wasn't quite cricket.

[HFishbine]

22. Perhaps further clarification

is in order. According to Dean, in Vermont, the release of such records are negotioted between the attorney general and the secretary of state.

[AP]

24. Yet he's saying that he's going to waive privilege now over some of the

documents?

It seems like he still has some discretion over the matter. No?

[HFishbine]

23. It Does?

I'm sure you have a source for that.

[sangh0]

30. It's called "logic"

Dean still has some authority over the release of these documents, no? If he didn't, then why are they asking Dean to release those records if it's not in his hands?

For a cite, see the Open Records Law in VT

[HFishbine]

3. Dean knows what he's doing

Fineman is an idiot if he doesn't recognize Dean's advantage in turning this "one-day story" into a "week-long story." The fact is it will be a persistant story until Bush agrees to unseal his records too. Fineman's political accumen had failed him on this one.

[AP]

6. I think the article argues that Bush's records are already public.

If Dean wants to turn this into something about presidential records, not governor's records, that's one thing.

However, Fineman is arguing that Dean made this an issue about the governor's records without realizing that the TX AG has ordered the governor's records be made public.

[HFishbine]

11. That's what I get

for not reading the article. However, as has been noted here, Bush's records are still being kept secret for all practical purposes. Should that change, then indeed, Dean will need to capitulate.

[goodhue]

20. Bush records available

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/02/national/02DEAN.html

Questioned on the ABC News program "Good Morning America" about his handling of the papers, Dr. Dean tried to turn the issue back on President Bush, who originally sent his own papers from his years as governor of Texas to his father's presidential library.

"I'll unseal mine if he will unseal all of his," said Dr. Dean, who is seeking the Democratic presidential nomination.

But Mr. Bush's Texas records were moved back to state custody after a ruling from the attorney general, and an archivist for the state said the Bush records were available for viewing.

[Scott Lee]

25. But not readily accessible. Go try and get one, see what I mean.

There is a process to getting to them that would take days, maybe weeks, maybe months to cut through all the redtape. Dean addresses this and hopefully others will see that this "accessibility" does not necessarily mean in a timely manner.

"Justice delayed is justice denied." - MLK

[eissa]

12. I heard that from some pundit

last night; said that this may actually be a tactic by the Dean campaign to simply keep his name in the news. So you stall and stall and stall, use your time in the limelight to attack *, and then finally unseal and expose.....nothing! HA!

[AP]

17. I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.

The other plus in doing that is that you get a lot of publicity for being the defender of privacy rights for vulnerable people.

However, the potential downside of this is that Dean did have a very business-friendly record in VT, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's what he's trying to hide in his records.

But then then the spin on that is that, by this point in his campaign, it looks like the Deaniacs no longer care what kind of record he has had in VT. They're convinced he's something different now. So, the strategy that worked would have been that Dean kept the harmfull stuff out of the public eye when he had to build up liberal bona fides. Now that he no longer needs to, this stuff can come out.

And Democrat who picks throught this stuff and finds something pro-business is going to be shouting about issues that Democratic primary voters are starting to prove they don't really care about.

And it's not like the Republicans are going to criticize him for being a fervant proponent of energy deregulation.

So, yeah, maybe this was part of a big strategy that started with Dean knowlingly demanding too much executive privilege and ultimately was designed to end up with the stuff coming out at a time when it was no longer harmful.

[papau]

5. Media whores never mention Bush "open" record restrictions - but

Dean is considering same as Bush restrictions !! :-) !!!

Will the media whores take note and report that the new restrictions are the same as Bush's?

Or should Dean give the media whores a right wing dump on Dean "Victory" by caving and just open all records to all to misquote/misinterpret/ quote without context - in sum - to use to do a "2000 Gore" media job on him?

[AP]

8. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the media to give Dems and Repubs

equal treatment in the media.

If the Dem is going to win in 2004, he or she is going to have to be twice as good as the Republican. If you'r just arguing that the two are equivalent or that the Dem is marginally better, the Dem will not win.

[blm]

18. That teflon they gave him is chipping, and the arrogance will soon be on

full display.

Dean is covering up his conservative dealings where he pushed for deregulation of electricity while governor. He certainly doesn't want his dealings with the energy companies he advocated for on this to be seen. Just like Cheney doesn't want HIS dealings with energy deregulation to be seen. It's far too ugly a process.

[Scott Lee]

26. Amazing that you "know" what's in Deans records.

I have a conundrum for you....if you had a stack of Bush records and a stack of Dean records to plough through looking for muck, which would hit first?

It would be Deans, wouldn't it.

[AP]

28. Raises an interesting issue. We all "know" what's in Bush's records.

A lot of slimey shit that helps the oil industry.

But do we have any idea what's in Dean's records? I don't think we do.

[Scott Lee]

31. Actually, you don't.

The other side would counter with "associations with oil industry is not 'slime'". You'd have to get all those internal records and comb over them to find the real grit. And do you know how long that would take IF they were releasable at all?

One might almost think you hate Dean worse than you do Bush, wouldn't one?

[blm]

33. I know enough not to trust an energy deregulator.

Do you?

[Scott Lee]

29. Thats the thinking that has been losing elections.

Campaigning with a halo on means you can have a "St." in front of your name after the other guy celebrates the election victory.

Dean shouldn't make public one shred of paper that Bush is not ready and prepared to match. Bare knuckles is what's going to win this thing, not saintliness.

[AP]

34. It is?

Clinton didn't campaign with a halo and he won. What he did was get twice as close to what the average American cared about -- the economy. He didn't campaign as being marginally better than Republicans on that issue. He campaigned on being twice as good.

2000, however, was battle for the margins.

Clinton says that Bush won that election with the message that Republicans would do everything Democrats did with smaller government and lower taxes. That pretty much sums up what people saw. Two guys battling over who was marginally better on a range of marginal issues (who had the better prescription drug program for seniors, for example).

Arguing that you're not going to do something unless Bush does it is, once again, battling at the margins. By no means does Dean do this on every issue. However, often you see the defense here of something Dean did being "well, Bush is worse." That ain't gonna cut it. If Bush is secretive. You got to be totally open. If Bush transfers wealth to the wealthy, you have to transfer wealth to the middle and working class. If Bush wants to scare you to the poing that you're willing to accept fascism, you have to give hope to the point that Americans say that we should fear only fear.

[zeemike]

9. Have you noticed?

How he seems to know what the voters like and does not like? How do you suppose he knows that?

[AP]

10. Experience? Because it's his job?

It's not like these claims contradict what many people around here have said about the same facts.

What do you think?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

16. Fineman is a horse's ass. We're lucky if 10% of what he says is true.

[AP]

21. Well, I would definitely question what he choses to shine a light on,

but I'm not sure that the stuff that he does shine a light on are untruths in this article.

For instance, if I wrote this article, I'd talk about what I talked about in post 17 (?) above, and what blm talks about -- whether Dean is hiding pro-business documents hiding a Catoistic bent towards maters of finance, budget and business regulation.

I'm not surprised that Fineman doesnt' want to talk about that.

[Scott Lee]

32. Dean is smarter than his enemies - thats what tweaks you

He realizes that just about anything can be pulled from his records and spun into some sort of scandal or at least some diversionary poop that might help slow his campaign.

What I find amazing is that you appear to be more inquisitive into Dean's records than the Chimp's.

[AP]

35. I should be more inquisitive about Dean's right now. It's primary time

and I'm trying to find the differences between the Democrats, and I want all the information about the candidates that I can find.

To me, it's revealing that Dean keeps framing this in terms of hiding things from Bush, when there's clearly a more important issue (which I'm sure he's smart enough to know) -- and that's what these documents say about what kind of Democrat he is compared to other Democrats.

Of course that's the most important part of this story.

[kerrygoddess]

36. Chat today

Join us at 3 PM for a chat with Frank Lowenstein of our foreign policy team about John Kerry's speech today to the Council of Foreign Relations in New York. The title of the speech is “Making America Secure Again: Setting the Right Course for Foreign Policy," and the text will be up on the web site at 2 PM. You can find the text and a link to the chat at http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2003_1203.html

The direct link to the chat is: http://www.johnkerry.com/chat/index.html
The chat room will open shortly before 3 PM EST.

[newyawker99]

37. Hi kerrygoddess!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast: