Discuss Ralph Nader here.

[Skinner]

In order to facilitate better discussion, or at least limit the flaming to one thread, I have instructed the moderators to lock all of the Nader threads in the General Discussion forum.

If you wish to discuss Ralph Nader in the General Discussion forum, you can do so in this thread. You may not start any other threads about Ralph Nader in the General Discussion forum. If you do, they will be locked.

Skinner
DU Admin

[HFishbine]

1. Who?

:shrug:

[Emboldened Chimp]

57. Exactly

[Kahuna]

169. LOL! My thoughts, exactly.

Nader? Who cares?

[Iverson]

2. Thank you.

n/t

[ShaneGR]

3. Nader's hypocritical financial dealings

This thread is intended to present a theory on Nader's bizarre reappearance on the political landscape despite the horror of a 2nd Bush term. It shows that Nader had direct financial benefits from his first spoiler role in 2000, and will continue to prosper in the case of a Bush re-selection. Bookmark it, slam it in a Greenies face whenever they talk about virtue or ideals.

During the 2000 election Nader was forced to make a disclosure of his finances. This document, which I've been staring at for a while, can be found here:

http://www.opensecrets.org/pfds/pfd1999/N00000086_99.pdf

Nader revealed that he owns between $100,000 and $250,000 worth of shares in the Fidelity Magellan Fund. The fund controls 4,321,400 shares of Occidental Petroleum stock.

Lets introduce ourselves to the Occidental Petroleum company shall we?

http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/colombia/663.html

(snip)
International rights attorneys filed suit today under the Alien Tort Claims Act against Occidental Petroleum and its security contractor, Airscan, Inc., for their role in the murder of innocent civilians in the hamlet of Santo Domingo, Colombia on December 13, 1998.

http://www.everyvotematters.com/boycott/ooo.html

(snip)
Gerald T McPhee, Washington, D.C., of Occidental Petroleum contributed $100,000 (the maximum allowed) to the 2001 Bush inauguration. If you have information on products and services, as well as alternative sources, please contact [e-mail]" target="_blank">[e-mail].

http://www.corpwatch.org/bulletins/PBD.jsp?articleid=5810

(snip)
According to the Bush Administrations draft budget request for 2004, the US would allot $110 million dollars to protect OXY's (Occidental) Cano Limon oil pipeline-- a $3 per barrel corporate subsidy paid for by US taxpayers and the lives of innocent Colombians. Should the operations of a morally bankrupt US oil company implicated in numerous human rights abuses related to the infamous Santo Domingo massacre receive a $110 million corporate welfare package (up $12 million from last year) for a project that protects pipelines, not people? According to community sources on the ground, US trained troops patrol within a few feet of the pipeline to keep the oil flowing.

But even if you ignore the Occidental link, the fund holds shares in so many companies Nader has crusaded against, it's hard to escape the conclusion that Nader's participation in the fund is supremely hypocritical. The fund, for example, owns stock in the Halliburton Company!!! The fund has investments in supremely un-p.c. clothiers the Gap and the Limited, both of which have been the target of rocks by World Trade Organization protesters, as well as Wal-Mart, the slayer of mom-and-pop stores from coast to coast.








So basically Ralphie enriched himself from a Bush Presidency, and he stands to further enrich himself in the event of a re-election. Heck, with his visits to Grover Norquist, who knows how many new stocks he's gobbled up. But go ahead Greenies... love him!

[Touchdown]

10. And his closet full of skeletens too..

My thread was shut down with only 5 posts, 3 of which were Naders usual glee club.

A pretty nice read here. I didn't know he crusaded against the evils of whole milk and the Elvis Stamp. Now THAT'S Presidential material.

http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm

secret luxury houses, union busting, worker abuse, and a hypochondriac to boot!

also, a response to Terwilliger's challenge of a link to Nader's ground troops comment from last night...

In an interview with Bill Oh' Really? (I know, but the enemy of my enemy...etc ), He stated that he would not have had air support for the troops in Afghanistan, and would've negotiated with the Taliban. This, IMO, would've put more of our troops in danger, and killed many more Afhgani civilians than the bombing raids actually did.

O'REILLY: But I still don't know how you would have driven the  Taliban from power and have bin Laden on the run?  If you're not going to use air power because you don't want civilian casualties, and you don't want massive U.S. casualties, what do you do?   Send in 50,000 ground troops to do the job?  You wouldn't have done that, would you? 
NADER:  No, I wouldn't.  It wouldn't have required that. 
O'REILLY:  So all right, yes. 
NADER:  Spies, bribes and commandos, a very surgical effort.  And saying to... 
O'REILLY:  Without the bombing? 
NADER:  Well, wait, you say to the Taliban, you choose.  You want to stay in power, get  out of the way.  

http://www.thecriticalvoice.com/reilly_nader.html

[Terwilliger]

65. have you looked at the realchange entries under Gore and Clinton?

Tell you what, if you accept everything realchange says about Clinton and Gore and Kerry and Dean, etc, then I'll give two shits that Nader has a bad entry there.

Will you accept what they say about the Democrats?

[stevedeshazer]

45. Old news

I wish someone who is as bright a lightbulb as you are would devote just 10% of the energy you have spent in the last couple of days tearing down Nader, who really doesn't matter anymore, towards working against the Republicans.

I think you just want attention.

Bush got 50,456,002 votes, 47.87%.

Gore got 50,999,897, 48.38%.

Nader got 2,882,955, 2.74%

Have you read anything at all about the theft of the Florida election? I have some references for you, if you need them. You might try Greg Palast's book. Have you read it?

You need help with your obsession.

The Democrats lost because of corruption on the part of the Republican-controlled government of the state of Florida.

You seem like a real smart fella, what is it you don't understand? PM me, and I'll mail you my copy of Palast's book for free.

Get off Nader, get on Bush.

[Endangered Specie]

153. About Nader and Florida:

Gore 'lost' by 500-100 votes.

Polls show that had Nader not run, ~10,000 would have voted for Gore instead (most the rest would have not voted.

Do the Math

[Ardee]

68. do you even understand what a fund is?

doubtful or you would understand how foolish your attempted smear of Nader really is.I own funds myself, they are comprised of shares in many companies. If Nader was remotely guilty of that which you do not even understand he would own the shares direct, and a lot more of them.....talk to a broker before you further embarrass yourself.

Do you, in your blissful ignorance understand that criticizing companies in your fund is courageous, you know demonstrating that which you apparently havent much thereof.

[SahaleArm]

109. Blissful ignorance is what you just wrote about Mutual funds.

Ralph and every other mutual fund investor gets a prospectus which details individual holdings within said fund. He chose to invest in funds that are not socially responsible. You could claim Nader was incompetent, in which case I would agree. His phoney act wears thinner by the moment.

http://www.socialfunds.com/

[Ardee]

163. specious argument alert

I never said Nader did not know what his funds contained. I wonder oh sage of Wall Street, would you tell us about the holdings of democrats?

[LiberalVoice]

4. National Youth Convention(NYC) in 2000

I actually interviewed Nader when I was sixteen on youth violence at the NYC they were having in Philly while they were holding The National Repug Conv. It was awesome...Im also participating in 2004 in New York City and Boston where they're holding the next two conventions.

If your 16-24 and want to see how you can get involved go to www.youthlink.org for more info...:)

[The Magistrate]

5. Let A Thousand Flowers Bloom! Let One Hundred Schools Of Thought Contend!

[roughsatori]

6. The many recent hate threads have made me change my mind about him

If he runs I may vote for him--depending on our nominee. Some posters who attack him the most support candidates that I barely can consider Dems--so their attacks are endorsements for Nader.

The only way I will guarantee a refusal to vote Dem is if the Defense of Marriage Act passes. If the party tosses out my civil rights--I refuse to give them my vote--and will change to a Green Party member.

[Hep]

8. Interesting

So if the DOMA passes, you'll give up any chance of having equal rights in your lifetime? OK!

[Colin Ex]

36. If that shit happens

then voting for the Democrats aren't going to get people any equal rights either, buddy.

-C

[Hep]

37. We'll be moving in the right direction

We sure as hell wouldn't be talking about amendments banning same sex marriage.

[mdguss]

9. Ralph Nader:

Maybe a contributor to the next four years of the Bush administration. He is a lying punk. I will bump this thread everytime I visit here. If you want to end the progressive movement, vote for Ralph Nader. Numbers DO NOT LIE.

[FDRrocks]

104. Where is the progressive movement???

Is it in the Democratic party???? Please tell me.

[Ardee]

69. said it before and now again

look carefully at the usual Nader bashers and note their history of postings. They are the most right wing denizens of this site and they believe they are doing the work of the DLC, distracting everyone from the real problems within the democratic party. But of course they are not. What they really do is embarrass themselves and ,in their transparent and obvious freeper style embarrass the party.

[FDRrocks]

105. Agreed...

some of the ad naseaum attacks sound like free republic sometimes. There are more posts on this board about Nader getting 2.7% than the Supreme Court selecting our president or other states voting irregularities OR electronic voting machines.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

7. Funny how I can WISH things and they happen!

My sentiments on Nader:

1) It is easy to criticize the records of elected officials you are challenging when you don't have one yourself (meaning record of actual congressional votes, I realize he has a record.)

2) If he is truly a champion of the people and the underdog then he MUST recognize, the damage from Bush et al is worse than anything the Democrats have done.

3) He can look at a swing state map and see the the Green party did divide the momentum of liberals in the last election.

4) By dividing the liberal portion of the electorate, given our two party and electoral system,his run can only help Republicans.

5) All of the above demonstrates that while he has some very good points about what is WRONG with our system, he is only exacerbating it.

6) Given our two party system, the Green party (not necessarily Nader) and other third parties would have more political pull, if they formed wings of the major parties for influence.

None of the above should imply that people are NOT FREE TO RUN nor that we should NOT address the fundamental unfairness of the powers awarded to the two party system...simply that doing it now is like talking about fire prevention while the house is on fire.

[ulysses]

40. I have to disagree here, Teena.

6) Given our two party system, the Green party (not necessarily Nader) and other third parties would have more political pull, if they formed wings of the major parties for influence.

It's exactly our current system that allows progressives to be marginalized and discounted within the party structure. Kucinich is ignored. Nader may be demonized, but he's certainly not ignored.

I just don't see the DP hierarchy suddenly getting hip to progressive goals with the influx of a couple million leftist footsoldiers - short, that is, of a liberal version of the DLC coup.

[FDRrocks]

98. We need a parliament...

seriously... look at the other countries. A two party system is not working. I agree with what you say.

[ulysses]

119. I completely cribbed your excellent point from the other day.

:D I'd have attributed it, but I couldn't quite remember who'd made the point.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

133. On that I agree...but how?

[Ardee]

70. think a bit harder ,please, pretty please

1) It is easy to criticize the records of elected officials you are challenging when you don't have one yourself (meaning record of actual congressional votes, I realize he has a record.)

there goes the campaign of Wesley Clark So, because you have never held elective office you disqualify yourself from speaking out. Nader is a public figure for christ sakes, we here enough from empty heading Hollywood types, at least Nader speaks to what he does know!

2) If he is truly a champion of the people and the underdog then he MUST recognize, the damage from Bush et al is worse than anything the Democrats have done.

specious argument alert Nader has spent far more time criticising Bush than ever he has criticising the democrats.It seems that the neocons hgere spend more time criticising Nader than Bush ,gives one pause, or it should!

3) He can look at a swing state map and see the the Green party did divide the momentum of liberals in the last election.

the Greens are building a national party too damn bad if the dems cant hold their own.

4) By dividing the liberal portion of the electorate, given our two party and electoral system,his run can only help Republicans.

the democrats have cast out the left, Nader did not make them do it they did that all on their own. Now suffer the consequences.

5) All of the above demonstrates that while he has some very good points about what is WRONG with our system, he is only exacerbating it.

thank you for clarifying that dissent is unamerican and can only lead to no solution to the problems......huh???

6) Given our two party system, the Green party (not necessarily Nader) and other third parties would have more political pull, if they formed wings of the major parties for influence.

you just dont get it, do you? The Greens find NO VOICE within the new democratic party, if the progressives had one there would be no Green Party.

None of the above should imply that people are NOT FREE TO RUN nor that we should NOT address the fundamental unfairness of the powers awarded to the two party system...simply that doing it now is like talking about fire prevention while the house is on fire.

Oh I see it now, lets suspend the rights of dissent and the right to speak to the issues and the right to run for political office because YOU feel it an inconvenient time to do soSHEEEEESH

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

79. Stop accusing people who disagree with you of not thinking

Two can do that:

there goes the campaign of Wesley Clark So, because you have never held elective office you disqualify yourself from speaking out. Nader is a public figure for christ sakes, we here enough from empty heading Hollywood types, at least Nader speaks to what he does know!


I would suggest commanding NATO was a pretty political job regardless of his uniform, but I'm also not firmly in Clark's camp although I would vote for him if he got the nomination. In fact, I would vote for Nader if he got the Dem nomination. The constitution pretty much gears us towards a two party system.

specious argument alert Nader has spent far more time criticising Bush than ever he has criticising the democrats.It seems that the neocons hgere spend more time criticising Nader than Bush ,gives one pause, or it should!

I think you are seeing what you want to see. Bush gets roundly criticized here every day of the week. Nader's days are Tuesday, Wednesday and Sunday (after football season is over) and every time he opens his mouth, criticizes the Dems or meets with that famous person one would expect the left to form coalitions with - Grover Nordquist. I haven't noticed many neocons on the board and at least a specious argument isn't ad hominem.

the Greens are building a national party too damn bad if the dems cant hold their own

Fine but if you are going to take that approach then don't bitch when you get treated as the opposition. I see a bit much of that in that Greens come here and complain about Bush, deny any contribution to his being elected (although in more than one state they were quite contributory - and yes we can argue that til hell freezes and your self professed election wonks see it one way and my self professed election wonks see it another way), complain that they are not accepted, then post the statement in italics above when challenged that their approach is actually DOING MORE HARM to the people/ issues they claim to be advocating for (it's almost a Munchausen's By Proxy political disease)


the democrats have cast out the left, Nader did not make them do it they did that all on their own. Now suffer the consequences.

THE democrats did NOT entirely alienate all the left. SOME DEMOCRATS did and that is to my chagrin but to be fair, there are many champions of traditional Democratic values still in the party.

thank you for clarifying that dissent is unamerican and can only lead to no solution to the problems......huh???

I've only ever heard of creative writing. Is that creative reading?

you just dont get it, do you? The Greens find NO VOICE within the new democratic party, if the progressives had one there would be no Green Party.

Maybe they are the ones that are not organized. Certainly if the far right wing can organize, find and have a voice in the Republican party, the more left leaners can find a voice within the Dem party...unless of course they are so unorganized, they could not find their ass with both hands. Seems to me some on the left blame their defeatism on others. Good luck finding your voice with the repubs in power. In a two party system, given the confines of our constitution that is the best you can hope for temporarily...

It only indicates you would rather you have NO LOAF than a half a loaf. In that paradigm, starvation is more imminent than a luau.

Oh I see it now, lets suspend the rights of dissent and the right to speak to the issues and the right to run for political office because YOU feel it an inconvenient time to do soSHEEEEESH

Again, you have to be quite adept at making shit up to arrive at that conclusion.

[Ardee]

120. I guess debate ends with disagreement ,oh well

methinks thou doth protest overmuch and I see the futility of talking with you. So Ill end with just these two examples of your rather slippery logic (sorry if you find me offensive but I find the endless and generally ignorant rants against someone who is protesting Bush far more often that are your precious democrats to be a diversion from the real problems facing your party.
you wrote:
1) It is easy to criticize the records of elected officials you are challenging when you don't have one yourself (meaning record of actual congressional votes, I realize he has a record.)

I responded:
there goes the campaign of Wesley Clark So, because you have never held elective office you disqualify yourself from speaking out. Nader is a public figure for christ sakes, we here enough from empty heading Hollywood types, at least Nader speaks to what he does know!

you then retreat from what you offered initially with some specious stuff about his NATO experience. You specifically mentioned elected office and voting on legislation then ,when challenged, retreat to administrative qualifications.Please say what you mean the first time, or do you always vacillate?

you wrote:
None of the above should imply that people are NOT FREE TO RUN nor that we should NOT address the fundamental unfairness of the powers awarded to the two party system...***simply that doing it now is like talking about fire prevention while the house is on fire.***
(starred for emphasis)

I responded:
Oh I see it now, lets suspend the rights of dissent and the right to speak to the issues and the right to run for political office because YOU feel it an inconvenient time to do soSHEEEEESH

So precisely what did I make up? You offer that there are times and places for dissent,and I would imagine those times and places are when you approve of the nature of that dissent,huh?

Again, my aim was not to anger you, you deal with the reasons for your anger on your own, thanks.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

132. OK allow me to explain

Since I never mentioned Clark and had not actively promoted his presidency, your bringing him into the equation made me alter my assessment somewhat. Sorry if addressing your question is vacillating. I find that response humorous. It is how "waffling" became newwspeak. I shall try to be more rigid in my thoughts in the future since that is so much more valued apparently. In fact, your pidgeonholing me is actually a verite performance of the Nader strategy ( all or nothing, sounds a lot more like You're either with us or against us than anything I said) Frankly I think my response is only slippery logic for someone who has ONE SPECIFIC END to a conversation. Their own. I should endorse Nader as being effective in this fight for democracy no matter the outcomes visible to me and the fact that I notice democracy slipping away all the more while he convinces some there is no difference between the parties and attends luncheons and shares the podium with the likes of Grover Nordquist (another champion of democracy I presume?)

Your end is to have me cheer on Ralph Nader as though he is a champion for the underdog so let's talk about slippery logic. How well IS the underdog faring under his strategy? Is it working? IF so, how?

As far as part deux of your note, the house being on fire was quite obviously an anaolgy of how one responds in an emergency versus how one responds prior to and after the fire is out. I thought that was simple enough to get. Nader could well use his efforts to unify those that are against this administration and likely earn himself an even greater voice. That doesn't seem to be his agenda. If it is it isn't working. If it is working, please enlighten me on what is working about it. My blindness now yields to your clairvoyance in the matter.

[Ardee]

134. Ive no intention of spiralling down this ever more snippy dialogue

So I will close by saying that I think you see Nader through a lens of your partisanship rather than for the inciteful critic of the Bush administration AND the failures of the Democratic party that I see in his speeches and articles.

If I angered you I apologise but I am very tired of the ratpacking of Nader that is so very common here.If the Democratic Party was doing its job there would be no reason for Nader to speak out at all, but they are not and so he must.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

151. You are right. This is an exercise in futlity.

He is a great speaker. He's done some excellent things. He knows the nature of the two party system. He has been around politics, academics and studied enough history to know the outcome of dividing the powerless.

[Ardee]

161. truce...

yes he is all of those things as well as knowing that speaking FOR the powerless is not dividing them it may be saving them.It is a sad fact that the democrats are no longer speaking to or for the people, in fact they are mostly voting for the Bush agenda so who then takes up the cause? Nader yesterday another Green tomorrow.

[cally]

11. My first political foray was in a Ralph Nader organization

He opposed every environmental activity we promoted, opposed the feminist legislation, and treated his staff horribly. Not me, but the full time staff. It was at a time when earth day was new, feminism was becoming more mainstream and Nader tried to thwart it. He was focused on his own agenda and ego trip. I despised him then, and nothing he has done has changed my opinion. He knew the early airbags may kill children and small women and yet he still pushed him. I can't forgive him that.

[MUAD_DIB]

15. But, but, you just don't understand...

The Democrats and the Republicans are virtually the same. There is no difference between the two parties...

</sarcasm>

[KG]

12. cool! all the vitriolic hate and lies in one place, for future reference!

thanks, Skinner! :)

[Iverson]

64. almost, KG

There's still plenty of ugliness still to roll in, such as indulgent stereotyping about economic class, dress, body piercings, hygiene and various other deliberate lies that pass for mainstream political discourse.

We may have to wait a bit, I guess.

[sweetheart]

13. fine then... nader's an ass

He is not satisfied with screwing up one election...

I have no respect for him at all.

He is a divider and a truly evil scumbag. I wish he'd grow a brain cell and stop supporting bush.

What a fucking divisive moron would repeat what he did before. Best he have medical complications or such, but then again, surely rove and company have a security detachment specially to make sure that nader spoils the left.

I'm stupified to this asshole's ignorance.

[Liberal Veteran]

14. If you vote for Nader you have no call to complain when 1000's more die...

...at the hands of the Bush administration because you played a part in putting him back in office.

You can argue with me until you are blue in the face and I will not budge from that position.

This is a clear case of needing to get rid of the devil we know and we know that all Bush has to sell is war and fear and misery and I don't want to hear any crap about how the democrats are not liberal enough for you. If the lives of thousands of people including our servicemen are worth so little to you that you would put your selfish desires to get only what you want without compromise above the lives of others you don't get any respect from me.

[earthman dave]

25. But if a Democrat orders those deaths then it's fine, right?

[Liberal Veteran]

27. Don't presume to put words in my mouth.

I am quite capable of speaking for myself thank you very much.

[Iverson]

115. nope

Sorry, buddy, but my First Amendment rights don't disappear just because you don't want to hear an opinion different from yours.

I understand that you're proud of that intransigence ("and I will not budge from that position"). that we Greenies get accused of with such regularity ("get only what you want without compromise"), but passionate insistence does not add up to truth.

I will continue to work for political change, and this may include being out on the streets and sidewalks protesting war while my Dem friends sit at home by the TV and tell themselves that they're the "real" opposition.

I've not heard of a single Green standing "shoulder to shoulder" with Bush, so this faux compassion for human life and righteous indignation against those who actually oppose Bush rings nothing but hollow. Think about that next time your guys join hands with Republicans to keep other voices silent, or maybe even when the Congressional Black Caucus stops by for tea.

[Endangered Specie]

154. Ah, yes,

Let the Flaming Begin.

[MsFlorida]

16. Nader needs

a permanent wedgie, maybe that would help him get his head out of his a**

[earthman dave]

17. Greens are the enemy! With us or against us! etc

As long as it's a Democrat, not a Republican, telling you what your corporate masters have decided then everything's alright. Fuck it, why change a winning formula? It's not as if foreigners are real people anyway. And who gives a fuck about the planet? We can buy another!

[Hep]

19. Greens ARE the enemy

But not because WE say so, but rather because Greens declared war on US in 2000.

[Cheswick2.0]

114. Please... when did Nader become an environmentalist?

to think Nader was/is a better environmentalist or candidate than Gore was insane in 2000. To vote for him now is even more insane. I am just as liberal as anyone on this board short of the Marxists. (Ralph Nader should be so liberal.) But that doesn't prevent me from seeing what an asshole Nader is. Several years ago I made lots of references to Naderbots. I stopped because I actually like some of the people who voted for Nader and agree with them on many issues...but honestly, it's like mass hypnosis has take away your powers of reason.

[NNadir]

160. Nader is no environmentalist.

The retard's most famous claim is that Bush is the same as Gore.

Gore wrote eloquently on the Greenhouse effect, whereas Bush destroyed the Kyoto treaty.

It follows that the most important environmental treaty of our time was a triviality not worth thinking about for Ralph (I want my Microsoft dividends!) Nader. Calling Nader an environmentalist is tantamount to calling Pinochet an advocate for human rights.

[mikehiggins]

18. Nothing is sadder

than a guest who has overstayed his welcome.

Nader's day is done, his influence is disappeared.

He is little more than a quick one-liner on Leno/Letterman.

I don't think Jon Stewart will even joke about him.

Time to go, old man.

[IrateCitizen]

29. The only thing sadder that that...

... is the amount of bandwidth that is taken up here on this one, senseless subject.

But hey, why discuss substansive issues or anything when you can beat each other up over Ralph Nader? :eyes: :russianroulette:

[Catherine Vincent]

20. Good!

Not a good idea of a bunch of Nader threads stinking up DU.

[Walt Starr]

21. Ralph Nader, the choice for people who want to make a statement

while destroying the environment, contributing to the destruction of our constitution, insuring the loss of anything remotely resembling freedom in this nation...

oh, and making absolutely certain George W. Bush remains in office to keep everything moving along in this direction.

What a wonderful statement to make.

[IrateCitizen]

22. Can we keep this as a permanent thing, Skinner?

Oh, pretty pretty please! :D

[G_j]

23. I second that

pretty please with a cherry on top!

[Cleita]

24. One more time.

Everything you need to know about Ralph Nader in one place:

http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm

<snip>
Ralph Nader has done a lot of good for consumers. He has also led attacks on such evils as Volkswagen cars, the American Automobile Association, whole milk, colored toilet paper, fluoridated water, and the Elvis stamp. Through it all he has manipulated the press brilliantly and built himself a comfortable and powerful niche without need for election, even within his own consumer groups.

4 years after he unquestionably tipped the 2000 Presidential election to George W. Bush, Nader refuses to admit that or take any kind of responsibility, and he's planning to run again. This time though even the Green party is getting sick of him.

For 30 years, Ralph Nader has proclaimed himself to be "Saint Ralph", the only honest man in Washington, and the only friend of the average citizen. If that doesn't make you puke already, then click on the allegation of your choice:

a HUGE hypocrite -- just another politician -- Anti-democratic authoritarian -- secret luxury house -- owned by the trial lawyers' lobby -- busted a union among his workers -- abuses workers -- amassing millions of dollars and playing the stock market with it -- secrecy and stonewalling -- vindictive toward critics -- forced "contributions" to his college PIRG groups -- hypochondriac -- Quotes -- Sources.<snip> more.....


Also, it has been the blind adoration of Nader by the Green party members that prevents more critical thinking liberals like myself from joining the Green Party.

[Ardee]

71. critical thinker? please stay away

The Green party has not decided to ask Ralph to run this time, doesnt sound like blind adoration to me, but then Im not a neoconservative apologist for the cowardice of the democratic party......tell me do you have a picture of Gephardt and Daschle smirking with Smirk in the rose Garden? Would you like one?

[Cleita]

82. A picture of Gephardt and Daschle with Smirk in the Rose Garden?

No, I don't. But you must have one if you are offering one to me. No you keep it. I wouldn't dream of depriving you of your precious keepsakes.

[Ardee]

121. Ahhh so sarcasm is your only defense

When you get a chance, and a break from your junior high school studies perjhaps you might do some actual research into the political scene here in the real world.

[Hep]

83. Actually

I though Canejo is running as a Green.

[Ardee]

122. Its Camejo

and your point?

[Hep]

125. It's isnt obvious? What up?

You said:

The Green party has not decided to ask Ralph to run this time,

Well, considering Camejo is running as a green, it isn't surprising that the party hasn't asked Nader to run. But it's odd that he's considering it anyway.

If I need to use smaller words, let me know.

[Ardee]

135. small minds smnall words

Have you seen anything to suggest that the Green Party has decided on Peter Camejo as its candidate for President in the coming election? Or are you simply confusing the california governors race with the national one? See, all easily digestible words for you.......

[Hep]

143. Well, if you were to go to the trouble of rereading my previous post

I simply submitted that I thought he was the guy. If I'm wrong, all you have to do is say so.

Yes small words for small minds. That's what I was talking about. Very astute.

[Ardee]

158. Oh ha ha ha a joke and sarcasm too

from a person who hadnt the faintest idea that the Green Party will not select their candidate until after the first of the year, someone who heard the name Camejo and the word green in the same sentence and constructed an entire body of thought from that event...oh well done punditry....

I wonder how many green party and Nader bashers are as totally clueless as this one and only want acceptance from their peers.....so sad, too bad.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

92. We don't have pic of them hanging out with Grover Nordquist

BTW...if the Green party doesn't ask Ralph to run but HE decides to run on THEIR ticket, what does that make him? How democratic is it for a party have NO say in their presidential candidate? Unless he runs INDY but then he cuts into YOUR base....funny that you can't recognize the inherent contradictions in that position.

[Iverson]

117. wha ... ?

Where in the world did you get the idea that Nader can just decide to run as the Green Party's nominee? That simply isn't true. Even a rudimentary look would reveal that the Greens have a convention.

I recommend that you not just take my word for it. Examine the Green Party website. You will find that the convention will be in Milwaukee in 2004 and that there are several presidential candidates.

Also, if Nader runs as an independent, it is always possible that he will get Green votes. No contradiction pertains; that is just one small element of the political landscape.

[mdmc]

127. Even if Nader won a Green Primary

He would need the party leaders to allow him to rep their line, He is not a registered Green.

[FDRrocks]

99. Wow... mad objectivism there!

edit: a HUGE hypocrite -- just another politician -- Anti-democratic authoritarian -- secret luxury house -- owned by the trial lawyers' lobby -- busted a union among his workers -- abuses workers -- amassing millions of dollars and playing the stock market with it -- secrecy and stonewalling -- vindictive toward critics -- forced "contributions" to his college PIRG groups -- hypochondriac -- Quotes -- Sources.<snip> more.....

I'd like to see a charge you can prove on there that you couldn't find Democrats guilty of.

[Terwilliger]

103. blind adoration of Green party members?

can you name any?

Now, I want you to publish here all the Democrats that realchange.org lists and the particular nasty things that realchange has to say about them.

If you accept what realchange says about those Democrats, then I'll accept what they say about Nader.

[ramapo]

26. Why blame Nader?

First thanks to Skinner...

Nader gets all the blame for the 2000 debacle. What about the Nader VOTERS? Were they all so stupid or uninformed that they didn't think for a second that their vote for Nader may elect Bush?

If he runs again, who gets the blame for any votes he might get? Do we just forbid Nader votes? Hey that BBV control might be good for something.

Maybe Nader is arrogant, self-centered, blah blah blah. People are entitled to run for office. Nobody is forced to vote for them. It's all about making a careful, considered, intelligent CHOICE.

[mikehiggins]

28. A true uniter

Where else can you find Deanites, Clarkistas, Kerry folk and Gebhardt fans (and maybe even a few lone Leibernauts) joining hands and giving one person a heartfelt and sincere raspberry????

Move along now, Ralph. Nothing here for you.

[creativelcro]

30. I was thinking the same...

Nader can function as a great uniter of all Dems... In this sense, he's doing a god job.

[JVS]

31. Don't hate the player, baby, hate the game!

[NNN0LHI]

32. Perhaps one thread per candidate is what we need?

For instance here is a thread started by someone who is proud of voting green last election who starts thread after thread demonizing one of the dem candidates regularly. Here is an example of one:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=817779&mesg_id=817779

Not telling you what to do. Just a suggestion. Thank you.

Don

[trumad]

33. Snarf

Obviously brought on by my threat of hundreds of Anti-Nader threads.... Good move Skinner.... ROTFLMAO

[salinen]

38. Would Gore have;

- promoted the ratification of Kyoto?

- Outed Valerie Plame?

- Chosen Michael Powell at FCC?

- Picked Ashcroft for AG?

- Allowed an energy bill defined by energy companies?

- Allowed a Medicare bill defined by HMO's and insurance companies?

- Been in favor of Vouchers?

- Relaxed polution standards?

- Spoaken out harshly against gay marriage?

- Gone to war in Iraq?

[el_gato]

34. thanks Skinner, some people seem obsessed

[Eloriel]

35. You ought to do this for all the candidates too

And start a new one after 150 posts or so.

Eloriel

[Selwynn]

39. YES -- AGREED

[Walt Starr]

41. Give the masses a flame thread

and it nearly drops off the first page.

:evilgrin:

:kick:

[CivilRightsNow]

42. It should be stickied

n/t

[sistersofmercy]

43. Oh now what's all this fuss about Nader?

:evilgrin:

[Lover of Liberty]

44. the Green Party is a special interest (mostly single-issue) party

A Green would never be elected President and should never be elected President. Ralph Nader basically preaches elitist socialism for the well-off. His party is not a unifying party first of all. This stands in contrast to other left-wing third parties such as the Socialist Party, the CP-USA, and the Social Democrats of America. I never understood this fascination with the Green Party. They only represent a small segment of our nation. In Europe (notably France and Germany) the Greens are just an environmental faction of leftist parliamenterian alliances that is more annoying than beneficial.

[GreenPartyVoter]

50. No

we aren't single issue.

That's just a popular myth .

[Lover of Liberty]

59. 'Scuse me? "We"? What are you doing on a DEMOCRATIC message board then? n/

[Forkboy]

60. Hey Lover

that would democratic with a small "d".

Sorry.

[Ardee]

157. Youze is new here so you gets slack

read the rules and you will note that this forum is not just for robots but for all progressives etc.....

[Terwilliger]

66. excuse me?

elitist socialism?

Your argument is completely without merit, since your assertion was that Greens are preaching socilaism BZZZZZZZZT

[Ardee]

73. i agree with you about one thing anyway

you just dont understand...courageous of you really ,admitting that.The Green Party has a website that belies your ridiculously uniformed opinion of their stance...dont you just hate it when the truth is out there?

[jpgray]

46. The views on Nader are too polarized

He's not a leftist hero, and he's not a Republican stooge. He is a man who is most successful at securing profit and fame for himself, like all politicians. The difference with Nader is he hasn't held elected office, and therefore he can say whatever he wants without fear of hypocrisy calls--he'd have to be an idiot not to say the right things some of the time. He does a great job exploiting leftist dilletantes, who refuse to believe or can't understand his hypocrisy--refusing to allow his workers to unionize, using his advocacy group earnings for stock adventures, etc. etc. He's doing this to be rich and famous. Don't blame him for it, his message is invaluable at times, and in the past he did valuable advocacy work. But on the other hand, don't take him for some perfect ideal of leftist genius--he's not that either.

[morgan2]

47. everyone here should support Instant Run-off Voting

whether or not you like or hate the two parties that exist now, everyone here should support IRV. It will get rid of the whole idea of a spoiler and make this again a functional democracy. The only people against IRV are corrupt and/or lazy politicans who don't want their power structure questioned.

[morgan2]

108. I really wish others would push for this.

It would take care of many of the problems with our democracy as it is now. Its something that would take political courage to propose, and I don't see how anyone could disagree with it in principle.

[denverbill]

48. Nader bashers had better damned well remember this.

You had BETTER line up lock, stock, and barrel behind the Democratic candidate in 2004. Because if I see one whiny Nader-basher bitching about Howard Dean once he gets the nomination, I will out you for the hypocritical asshole that you are.

[NNN0LHI]

49. And if Dean does not get the nomination, then what? n/t

[denverbill]

51. Same story, different verse.

If it's Clark, you sure as hell won't see me bashing Clark. Same with Edwards, same with Gephardt, same with Kerry.

Personally, I believe Ralph Nader is 100% correct in his assessment of the Democratic Party, and 100% wrong in his assessment of how to fix the problem. The fact that I disagree with him about method doesn't change the fact that I respect him for everything he's fought for over the years, or the fact that I agree that the Democratic Party has been taken over by corporate whores. You will see no better evidence of that fact than the revulsion the DLC shows toward Howard Dean, IMO.

[Ardee]

74. You can blow out the candle Diogenes

I found an honest man.....thank you denverbill for a fair and honest post...what a relief!

[mdmc]

126. There we have it!

Another Dean supporter that is kinda Green, but pragmatic. I worked for Gore, but, in my safe Dem state, voted for Nader. Probably will again, unless Kucinich wins (which would pretty much kill the green party). That being said, I think that Dean is our best bet to run a three way race between the greens and the gop. Perhaps Clark would be best to run against just the gop.

[Hep]

129. So

what exactly do you think can be gained by a Nader candidacy? Do you really want to someday see him as president? He hasn't even put up a platform yet, and the one he had in 2000 was NOT impressive.

[Ardee]

137. perhaps you could share

what it is you found offensive about the Green Party (not Nader's) platform in '00?

Startling revelation time.......Nader is not running to win the presidency he is running to keep certain values and ethics alive and in front of the american voter.

[Iverson]

138. bingo

"to keep certain values and ethics alive and in front of the american voter"

That's the objectionable thing. Submission to corporatism is the only choice, and the pragmatists have declared it to be pragmatic, so shut up and conform.

[Hep]

146. Can you help me out

and explain to me what corporatism means to you exactly? The dictionary definition is pretty complex and confusing.

[Iverson]

148. yes

Consider the suffix -ism, connoting a belief or a practice. In my informal and shorthand way, I was referring more or less to a slavish devotion to corporate interests.

I realize that my opinions are unacceptably far left and upsetting to some, so in all fairness I offer in counterpoint a link to a discussant's wish that Nader should die in a plane crash.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=253637#253656

Have a bipartisan day.

[Hep]

149. Sheez!

I'm not about to wish death on Nader. Jesus! I'm sorry that such a thing was ever posted. Talking about killing the dialog.

And thanks for the clarification on corporatism. I'm one of those misguided people who believe that Dean's campaign is doing a great job in not veholding to corporate interests, although I know the record is not perfect.

[Iverson]

150. well, at least your reaction was human

Not everyone's is. I'll do my best to remember that.

[Hep]

145. Thanks for answering my question

It was simple enough. And the question stands regardless of whether or not he runs, despite the fact that he's initiated an exploratory committee for just that purpose.

If he's not running for the presidency he shouldn't RUN FOR THE PRESIDENCY. What an absurd statement. Running as a presidential candidate is not a frigging game. If his goal is to keep certain values and ethics alive and in front of the american voter, he has numerous avenues to take.

And I was never talking about the Green platform, I was talking about NADER'S platform. See, it's a thread about Nader. As far as greens go, I'm not one. But I signed a petition months ago to ensure that green candidates will be on the NC ballot in the next election. And I voted for local candidates that were endorsed by the green party, although incidentally. No Greens ran. Non partisan races for the most part anyway.

[mdmc]

144. oh

Glad you asked. It would be nice to be able to vote for someone that is opposed to the death penalty, the drug war, and for fair trade. That 2000 unimpressive platform is what keeps me coming back.

[Hep]

147. Yeah, OK

I understand that approach and don't disagree. I subscribe to a different political philosophy. I believe that people who support Nader for President are willing to sacrifice their ideals for their ideaology. Honestly, what is the most that will come from your voting for nader, given the current political climate?

I oppose the death penalty, the drug war, and support fair trade. I don't think Nader can give that to us. I don't think he has a prayer. And I think his candidacy could undermine our overall efforts to someday HAVE a society that reflects our values.

[Ardee]

159. What will come from voting Green

and I say Green rather than Nader because he isnt a Green and lends his support because he feels, as do I, as do many registered Greens (and I am not yet one of them)that third party politics is the last remaining hope to keep the progressive agenda alive and well in America! The more people vote Green the more the democrats will have to consider their opinions and agendas, it is really that simple.

How can you, I wonder, in the same breath talk about keeping values alive and then deny someone the right to run for office and the right to speak freely about his political opinion? What values do you consider worthy and which do you consider a bother?

[Hep]

164. LOL

I'm sorry, I just can't take you seriously. Maybe you have me confused with someone else. I don't remember ever saying that he should'nt have the right to run. As if I have the authority to deny someone;s right to run for office! I don't even recall saying that I believe he should be denied such a right.

Were you under the impression that I'm in charge of the FEC, or maybe that I'm God or something?

Just curious, you silly person!

[Ardee]

170. keep laughing

it helps you to avoid your dichotomous postings.....You post:

"I believe that people who support Nader for President are willing to sacrifice their ideals for their ideaology. Honestly, what is the most that will come from your voting for nader, given the current political climate?"

So you agree that Nader has a right to run but insult those who believe he speaks true and, as the vote is an individual choice, insult that choice as well. You are some piece of work,as confused as you are lacking in critical thought...but keep laughing......

[Obamarama]

52. Nader is a nebbish....

The man simply needs to go a way. Dead wood. Needless fly in the ointment. Trouble maker. Has been. Big ZERO. Buffoon. Caricature.

And the Greens who follow him remind me of the idoit Nicholas II & Alexandra who hung on every word of "wisdom" Rasputin offered...and look at where Rasputin got the Romanovs.

The only problem here is not only are the Greens risking screwing it up for themselves by needlessly and foolishly wasting their votes, but they're poised to screw it up for the REST OF US. And that makes me really pissed.

And now, as Forest Gump is fond of saying, that's all I have to say about that....

NEXT!

[mzmolly]

53. A vote for Nader is a vote for....

well you know the rest.

If you vote for Nader, don't bitch about another 4 long mother f'n years of *. Them's my 2 cents. ;)

[ellie]

54. My first post on Nader!

I finally found the article I was looking for on him! Outside magazine ran articles on Gore, Nader and bush during the 2000 campaign. I didn't know much about Nader, but after this article, I became horrified:

Link here:http://outside.away.com/magazine/200008/200008camp_nader1.html

"Of more immediate interest, at least to Al Gore, are Nader's respectable poll numbers: 7 to 10 percent in California as of June, 6 percent nationally. If California tips Green enough, Bush could win the state and the whole damn election.

"Which, Nader confided to Outside in June, wouldn't be so bad. When asked if someone put a gun to his head and told him to vote for either Gore or Bush, which he would choose, Nader answered without hesitation: "Bush." Not that he actually thinks the man he calls "Bush Inc." deserves to be elected: "He'll do whatever industry wants done." The rumpled crusader clearly prefers to sink his righteous teeth into Al Gore, however: "He's totally betrayed his 1992 book," Nader says. "It's all rhetoric." Gore "groveled openly" to automakers, charges Nader, who concludes with the sotto voce realpolitik of a ward heeler: "If you want the parties to diverge from one another, have Bush win." "

It's not hard to question his motives when he admits that he would vote FOR bush.

[Ardee]

76. Not much for nuances,huh?

Politics for the lamebrained 101

nader sees Bush as consistent and ,in his fashion, true to his history. he accurately noted that the voters would sooner or later see through Bush therefore he criticised Bush but vehemntly detested the cowardly campaign of Al Gore who refused at every turn to passionately confront Bush. I hate cowards, I hate liars, I hate that so many here refuse to see the betrayal of the neoconservative democrats who really sold us out.

[NNadir]

162. If you hate liars, you hate Nader.

The whiny little self absorbed twerp went around for years saying that he never made more than $5000/year. This is why he refused to release his tax returns in 2000. Finally, thinking that his worshipers are feeble-minded folks with short attention spans and unreflective minds (all of which is true by the way) he released his returns. Somehow on $5000/year the ascetic illegal strike-breaking LIAR became a multimillionaire.

Nader, whose first stock holding was apparently in Ford Motor Company, whose stock he purchased before "exposing" GM's Corvair, rides around in Limosines (with poor gas mileage), and lives in a luxorious Washington townhouse. He is once reported to have waxed enthusiastically about his tax break on the interest payments.

No wonder he's so comfortable with Bushies. They keep his taxes low.

Fuck Nader. I want that fuck to run, just to show how fucking meaningless he's become.

[Ardee]

165. hey you misspelled your name...N-a-d-E-r

Your post is rather short on fact and long on emotionalism.Oh gosh naderis the antichrist because he has a washington townhouse, well hell thats a federal offense to be certain????He rides in a limo, hell, lock him up and ignore his speeches.....he lives in the urban northeast, he uses a rental agency when in need of transport negating the need for parking, many such affluent urban dwellers do the same, whats it to you, jealousy?

Your specious and far right wing-like diatribe about Naders reason for campigning against the Corvair simply disqaulify you from consideration as a valid poster and your descent into gutter language says volumes about you but nothing about the subject.

As a graduate of Harvard Law, with honors, Nader could have gone directly into a prestigious law firm, starting salary in 6 figures, limo included. He chose a life of public service instead, a fact that you, someone who probably hates his Wal Mart job, cant see....pity.

[newyawker99]

55. kick

[HuckleB]

56. Do I have to?

It sounds like an order.

[Terwilliger]

58. Hello!

:hi:

[Colin Ex]

61. Hey, commie!

What up in the green house? :hi:

-c

[newyawker99]

62. kick

[Terwilliger]

63. One Nation, Under Cthulu, With Death And Destruction For All

:D

[UTUSN]

67. Why? n/t

[Forkboy]

72. lol

[Terwilliger]

75. Welcome to "How Quickly Will This Thread Die II: Thread That Will Not Die"

[messiah]

77. Bring back the Green vs Democrat forum!

people should be able to showcase their views no matter how redundent they are, stop quelling speech!.

[Skittles]

78. THANK YOU

I AM SICK OF HEARING ABOUT THAT F***WIT.

[Forkboy]

81. Then tell all the Nader Haters to stop bringing him up

maybe 1 out of all the Nader threads was started by someone who liked him.The rest were just an excuse to get unproductive feelings like your own out.

[Hep]

84. Buh?

Yeah, he didn't recently initiate an exploratory comittee for apoosible run for the presidency or anything, because if he did, THAT would be newsworthy.

Oh, wait.

[Forkboy]

85. That certainly doesn't change my point

That's one story that turned into about 2 dozen threads of pure hate.

[Hep]

87. Well

I'm jst saying that it isn't out of nowhere. He's in the news and conjuring up images of 2000 all over again. You can hardly blame people who carry a grudge for rekindling their ire. Lots of folks desperately want Nader to NOT run, for the love of God.

I'm on record here with my feelings about Nader. I won't bait you with inflammatory rhetoric. But I don't see how he would be doing himself or America any good by running again.

[Forkboy]

90. I know what you're saying

and I dont think he should run either (and the handful of Greens I know dont want him either :) ).

I just think the hate directed at him is ugly and unproductive,and there's really no need for multiple threads to basically say the same thing over and over.

And thanks for not including any inflammatory rhetoric,I really do appreciate that.

Peace.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

80. FINALLY

I was so sick of seeing 50000 Nader threads every 5 minutes.

[Terwilliger]

106. you should have complained to the Democrats that started them

[MSchreader]

86. Myopic, ignorant, partisan nonsense

Do you people not get it?! Are you not paying attention?!

If Ralph Nader gets the Green nomination, the GPUS will split -- possibly right down the middle. Already, a large section of the Green Party (including two or three of the GPUS's national officers) has said that if Nader runs again, they will defect to the Democrats. Only the Naderites in the Green Party want him to run ... and they are a minority (probably the largest minority, but nevertheless...).

I would think that all you hyperpartisan Dems would be hoping and praying for Nader to get the nod again. His ascendancy would be the death of the Greens as a national challenge, because of the internal friction between the Naderites and anti-Naderites.

The knee-jerk reactions to Nader running I read here are myopic (short-sighted), ignorant (lacking in facts) and partisan (one-sided) nonsense. Get a clue or STFU; you do no one any good just spouting off.

Martin

[Hep]

89. I think you have a point

but I'm certainly not buying into any notion that we can't win without Nader running and splitting the greens.

Not that it's what you're necessarily selling or anything.

[Iverson]

113. of course

But what would the far right do without obsessive Hillary-bashing?

[ShaneGR]

88. Kind of nice to have the Nader problem minimized to this thread

Refreshing actually.

[Forkboy]

94. You started one of them yourself

:eyes:

[Terwilliger]

100. that doesn't matter

he got his two cents in...he's so special!

[ShaneGR]

101. People who help elect Bush deserve what they get

Now that DU has limited this Bush helping, I'm happy. Like I said, refreshing.

[Iverson]

112. Try: People who mimic Bush deserve what they get ...

People who help Bush enact his agenda deserve what they get.
People who stand "shoulder to shoulder" with Bush deserve what they get.
People who give Bush a blank check deserve what they get.
People who excuse Bush deserve what they get.

Gee, simplistic reduction doesn't seem to be in your arsenal when the culpability hits too close to home. Only "helping" by your definition gets a mention, and somehow all that energy goes in exactly the wrong direction.

This is liberalism!?!?!?

[Iverson]

116. Is this like the "Irish question?"

There goes liberal pluralism.

[burr]

91. fuck this...

I discuss Ralph Nader when I'm discussing relevant issues. If you disagree with this, then ban me! I'm not some terrorist to be caged away by the speech police.

[Forkboy]

93. you seem tense tonight

[burr]

96. I'm just loosening up!

I believe it is the moderators and adminstrators..who are not only becoming tense, but unreasonably frightened of any DU poster's criticism.

[Hep]

97. Can you blame them?

They're having to deal with an increasingly hostile web community here.

[burr]

107. moderators have the ability to report any of us who send hateful PMs!

This is the way it must be done, we are ALL held accountable for our PMs and postings, while moderators are viewed in the light of the open or public judgements they make. We are all human, and we must all acknowledge responsibility for our deeds and misdeeds.

It is wrong to give moderators an anonymous identity, just as it would be wrong to do the same for any DU poster. If we do not know that we are being held to the same standard, then why should we assume justice is being done at DU?

If moderators dislike this job, and are sick of hostility...there are two fair options. The first is to ban those who use profanity, name calling, and PMs as a means of harrassment. The other is to step down..and allow the many DUer's who are happy to moderate a chance do this. I would gladly do this, but only if this MODERATOR feature is not put in place!

[ShaneGR]

102. Uhhh, this is the Nader thread.... use it

Instead of bitching about this being the only Nader thread, use it to talk about Nader. You're not in a cage... you're in a thread. Deal with it.

[burr]

110. Nader has done much for our country...

if it was not for his leadership, we would not have airbags and other lifesaving technology in nearly every car sold in America.

But I don't have to come here to post this, nor do I have to take any personal shit from you! :wow:

[ShaneGR]

111. We also wouldn't have Bush

Train goes both ways.

[FDRrocks]

95. I agree with him...

I have conservative views... but I am far left, generally. Why? B/C I feel both parties are beholden to large corporate interests... which contradicts Democracy.

And I truely do think things have to get better b/f they get worse. B/C the some bad shit is here... and the system is still turning.

If the Democrats want to be Centrists with a big tent party... then I am a Green. Because the Repukes have a RW big tent... spanning over to the Dem party... the Dems have a centrist big tent... and we need a liberal big tent.

[Endangered Specie]

155. We need to go pie nader again

Anyone got a pic of that? I need a new Desktop image.


Why do people blindly vote for someone who WILL NOT win? I thought we were supposed to be smart?

[FDRrocks]

156. We don't...

Why do people blindly vote for someone who is beholden to a sickeningly corrupt system? I thought we were supposed to be smart.

I'll vote my conscience... I'd vote for a liberal from any party... but this advanced corruption is just shit. Our democracy is a farce and the two parties are the massive Goebbels of this age.

[fujiyama]

118. Being one...

that has criticized Nader on more than one occassion, I will say this will be my last post regarding him.

I think this is an issue that has been beaten to death, and then some. It's quite obvious that there are still quite a few that will not vote for the democratic nominee, if that person is not Kucinich.

That is their choice. Unfortunately it means a future of the same crap we've had for the last four years, most likely much worse.

The democratic party has many problems. That is more than obvious. However, I don't see how reacting out of spite will help anything. This applies to both GP members and dems. This infighting will literally kill hundreds, if not thousands more around the world. If there was ever a point in time, where the stakes were too high now is that time.

Oh, and BTW, just because some of us can't stand Nader, doesn't mean we're against all of his previous work or many of the green ideals.

Compromise between the GP and the Dem. Party is a two way street. I myself would be happy to see the day where Kucinich is treated just as any other "serious" candidate. It's not going to be this election though. Sorry. America ISN'T there yet. This nation is simply to the right of both Europe and Canada, both socially and economically. Third parties also aren't a very realistic possibility on a national scale because our system isn't doesn't have proportional representation.

So I urge everyone to participate in this primary process. If Kucinich is nominated and wins I will be as happy as anyone, but I somehow doubt that would happen.

[newyawker99]

123. kick

[newyawker99]

124. kick

[mdmc]

128. So is it wrong to vote

Green in a blue state or a hopelessly red state? Why would it be bad to do this?

[fujiyama]

140. I suppose...

voting Green in say Utah or Idaho, really wouldn't make much of a difference. In such states strategic voting would be sensible, for any Green voter.

However, in this next election, I don't see any true safe Blue states, other than perhaps Massachussets, and a few other northeast states. The reason I say this is because of the huge amount of money Bush will have in time for the general election.

The disgusting ads are slowly creeping out, claiming that Dean is going to increase taxes on all Americans and that democrats are against fighting terrorism.

Make no mistake, this will be an uphill battle.

[otohara]

130. Do We Have To?

Thanks Skinner, but I think I'll pass!

[John_H]

131. This should be a permanent rule throught the general election

one nader thread created and titled by the admins. Great Idea!

[eileen_d]

136. Ralph Nader (born February 27, 1934)

is a United States consumer rights activist, and two-time US presidential candidate of the Green Party. In both runs Winona LaDuke was his vice-presidential running mate.

Ralph Nader was born in Winsted, Connecticut to Lebanese immigrant parents, Nathra and Rose Nader. He graduated from Princeton in 1955 and Harvard Law School in 1958. In 1963, then 29, Nader hitchhiked to Washington, DC and got a job working for then Assistant Secretary of Labor Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nader

(I felt like discussing Nader in 5th-grade-social-studies-report format, hope nobody minds.)

[Iverson]

139. Damn! Now you can wish death upon him with impunity.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=253637#253656

Read note #5.
Words fail me.

[eileen_d]

141. I just alerted on that.

As the other poster said, "NOT COOL." x(

[Iverson]

142. Fundamental decency is always appreciated.

It shouldn't have to be refreshing.
In any case, I value your human response.

[mvd]

152. I like the Green party but don't like Nader

Nader seems to have his own interests in mind and not the party's. And he has an arrogance that makes him no more likeable than Bush, IMO.

[Terwilliger]

166. HATE NADER HERE

it seems to be neater this way

[Renew Deal]

167. lol

:crazy:

[Iverson]

168. hatred as an organizing political principle

I guess the right-wing extremists have won this one. Too many so-called progressives buy right into it with enthusiasm.
Gotta keep on setting a good example, Terwilliger.

[hooraydems]

171. I like him...

I thin Nader represents what alot of Dems are afraid to say for fear of public criticism that they are too far to the left..Good for him, that he espouses the views that he does...we need more like him

[Deja Q]

172. Thank you

I've never seen why such a small man, who was the candidate for such an insignificant party, gets treated as if he created AIDS and gave it to everybody. :eyes: There were so many factors in "Selection 2000" that to pin it all on one factor is myopic, to say the very least...