Kerry would consider naming James Baker or Poppy Bush a Mideast envoy

[pruner]

NEW YORK Dec. 3 — Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry on Wednesday assailed President Bush's foreign policy as "inept, reckless," as he proposed sending tens of thousands more troops to Iraq and naming special envoys to the Mideast and the Islamic world.

<snip>

Kerry said he would appoint special envoys to the Middle East and elsewhere, hoping to tap former commanders in chief such as Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton or even the current president's father, George H.W. Bush. Prior to the speech, Kerry spoke to Carter and Clinton.

"There's great talent out there, with people who've been through this," Kerry said during a question-and-answer session after his speech. "The United States has always been the leverage, if you will, the broker of goodwill to try to bring the parties together."

Kerry also suggested former Secretary of State James Baker as a possible envoy, a proposal that drew criticism from rival Wesley Clark, who called the notion of using the Republican who played a role in the 2000 Florida recount "offensive."

<snip>

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20031203_1989.html

[Hawkeye-X]

1. There you go!

/me watches Kerry's support plummets even further.

I wouldn't even send BFEE to Mideast -- I would send them to somewhere extremely shitty and force them to live there for the rest of their natural lives.

Hawkeye-X

[blm]

6. Try reading the actual speech.

www.johnkerry.com

I disagree with Kerry that Baker should even be "considered" however you have Dean being applauded here at DU for his Hardball appearance where he praised Colin Powell who he would have for Sec. of State and praising Bush1's foreign policy as "excellent" when it was Baker who handled Bush1's foreign policy ventures.

Why are you all being so hypocritical when Kerry said he'd only "consider" Baker in the interest of bi-partisanship?

Note also that Dean says Powell should have been listened to on Iraq, yet it was Powell who made the case to the Democrats in committee and promised a coalition would be built first and employ full diplomatic measures before use of force.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/1000254.asp
 MATTHEWS: Do you have any confidence that this president is calling the shots?
       DEAN: I think the president does make the last decision. I do think that. I think he gets a lot of advises. The problem is that the people he gets advice from are people he ought to not be paying so much attention to. If he paid more attention to Colin Powell and less attention to Dick-
       Donald Rumsfeld, we wouldn’t be in Iraq right now.
       (APPLAUSE)
       MATTHEWS: Do you think he would be a good secretary of state for you, Colin Powell?
       DEAN: I think he would be a good secretary of state, period. He is a loyal person. He knows, what he is doing. And he has what-let’s get back to the question...
       MATTHEWS: Do you agree with him on foreign policy, Colin Powell?
       DEAN: In many cases I do. I read his books. I like them a lot. You don’t go into a place with no exit strategy. We clearly went into Iraq with not exit strategy.
       Let me answer the question about Kerry’s comments about my foreign policy.
       MATTHEWS: Sure.
       DEAN: Kerry, Gephardt, Lieberman, Edwards and Wes Clark at first, all of us were in favor of this resolution that was a preemptive unilateral attacks on Iraq. I was not. We all had information from the papers. They presumably had some intelligence information, with the exception of Wes, who may have had some or not. He was out of the government by them. I came to a different conclusion because a lot of what is required of a president for foreign policy is judgment and patience. If I came to a different conclusion than they did, given the amount of trouble we’re now in Iraq, given the fact that al Qaeda is in Iraq now and it wasn’t there before, it seems to me that their kind of foreign policy experience is not the kind we want in the White House and mine is.
       
          MATTHEWS: That’s it? You are a cold man.
       George Bush Sr., Herbert Walker Bush?
       DEAN: Excellent on foreign policy. Not to great on domestic policy.  
 Alert

[donotpassgo]

20. Bush and Baker are huge reasons the Middle East is fucked up to begin with

To even consider having those oil vampires anywhere near that area is disgusting and pandering.

[polpilot]

30. and naive...and foolish...and scary...and regressive...and childish...and

simplistic...and ____________etc.

Dean '04...Won't be appointing the Bush monarchy!!

[blm]

31. Yes...he's trying to get conservatives to look at the difference

between the way Israel was handled by Bush1 and look at the way Bush2 is handling it. He's not really going to send Baker over Clinton, get real.

Do you really think that Dean is going to have Colin Powell as sec. of State or was he throwing a bone to independents?

[goforit]

47. OMG!!!..The Conservatives are getting pissed at the * monarchy as well.

Kerry and the Press caters to the minority.

They are out of of touch totally!!!!!!!!

[paulk]

58. why do you think this?

Explain your reasoning. Support it.
How did Bush and Baker fuck up the middle east?

[DemCam]

27. Don't want either one

anywhere near a Democratic administration...ever!!

Look what we got with Richard Cohen when Clinton appointed him? He's republican, too.

[paulk]

59. What did we get with Richard Cohen?

I'm curious.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

9. Kneejerk reaction? YOU win the prize

Congrats!...meanwhile Kerry's done something smart- he's getting airtime with this apparently controversial suggestion which is actually quite sensible when one actually looks into it.

[Hawkeye-X]

13. Not sensible

Guess you haven't read who is behind PNAC? That's right -- the BFEE. They'll grub it up. Sorry, NYFM -- even I see Kerry an idiot.

Hawkeye-X

[blm]

18. But, you're loving Dean's praise of Poppy Bush and Colin Powell?

.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

22. Nope, not really

I think that Dean is obviously trying to make the point that he's not some crazy anti-war liberal, and also trying to show how extreme Junior's policies have been in comparison to Poppy's.

Personally I disagree with Dean that GHWB was "excellent" on foreign policy. But I know why he said it.

And he didn't suggest that he would give any of these guys a job in his administration, least of all James Baker.

[paulk]

57. that's bogus, hawkeye

You can despise Baker for the slimy POS he is, but neither he or Poppy or any of Poppy's crowd ever signed on to the PNAC. They referred to that whole crowd as "crazies".

[Sterling]

32. Oh Brother

:eyes:

Get it real.

[terrya]

2. Naming Baker as an envoy is almost as offensive as naming Kissinger.

But, not quite.

Kerry blew it with that one. Plus, Baker probably wouldn't accept, anyway.

I agree with utilizing Carter and Clinton as special envoys. Both would be respected by both sides.

And, instead of Baker: how about Madeline Albright?

[grasswire]

3. I will NEVER support Kerry

Anyone who thinks that James A. Baker and/or GHW Bush could represent America in foreign diplomacy is an enemy of truth or an idjit.

No Kerry. No. No. No.

[montanacowboy]

5. What is Kerry smoking?

has he gone clear off the deep end? this guys now rates LOWER than holy joe -my God I am speechless.

[blm]

11. And Dean is even worse...look at his Hardball transcript

Note also that Dean says Powell should have been listened to on Iraq, yet it was Powell who made the case to the Democrats in committee and promised a coalition would be built first and employ full diplomatic measures before use of force.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/1000254.asp
 MATTHEWS: Do you have any confidence that this president is calling the shots?
       DEAN: I think the president does make the last decision. I do think that. I think he gets a lot of advises. The problem is that the people he gets advice from are people he ought to not be paying so much attention to. If he paid more attention to Colin Powell and less attention to Dick-
       Donald Rumsfeld, we wouldn’t be in Iraq right now.
       (APPLAUSE)
       MATTHEWS: Do you think he would be a good secretary of state for you, Colin Powell?
       DEAN: I think he would be a good secretary of state, period. He is a loyal person. He knows, what he is doing. And he has what-let’s get back to the question...
       MATTHEWS: Do you agree with him on foreign policy, Colin Powell?
       DEAN: In many cases I do. I read his books. I like them a lot. You don’t go into a place with no exit strategy. We clearly went into Iraq with not exit strategy.
       Let me answer the question about Kerry’s comments about my foreign policy.
       MATTHEWS: Sure.
       DEAN: Kerry, Gephardt, Lieberman, Edwards and Wes Clark at first, all of us were in favor of this resolution that was a preemptive unilateral attacks on Iraq. I was not. We all had information from the papers. They presumably had some intelligence information, with the exception of Wes, who may have had some or not. He was out of the government by them. I came to a different conclusion because a lot of what is required of a president for foreign policy is judgment and patience. If I came to a different conclusion than they did, given the amount of trouble we’re now in Iraq, given the fact that al Qaeda is in Iraq now and it wasn’t there before, it seems to me that their kind of foreign policy experience is not the kind we want in the White House and mine is.
       
          MATTHEWS: That’s it? You are a cold man.
       George Bush Sr., Herbert Walker Bush?
       DEAN: Excellent on foreign policy. Not to great on domestic policy.  
 Alert

[poskonig]

44. Kerry wouldn't actually send Poppy or Baker.

Think about it.

[Lefty48197]

4. I would nominate Jim Baker for permanent resident ambassador to Iraq

Anything less would not do him justice.
Clark was right, Kerry was an idiot for suggesting Baker. He might as well have mentioned Katherine Harris, or Linda Tripp.

[tnlefty]

7. Clark just scored some major points with me

Offensive is a mild term as far as I am concerned.

[Demobrat]

8. Huh? Who? Poppy Bush?

I think my head just exploded.

[JanMichael]

10. Baker and Bush are both offensive. Bad, bad, call on Kerry's part.

Geez.

[NicoleM]

12. Wait a second. . .

I thought Kerry was the only one who has the goods on the BFEE and is willing and able to take them down.

So confused. . .

[Hawkeye-X]

14. Exactly right..

why would the Kerry supporters continue to support him when he's making mistakes left and right?

If Kerry was gonna do something to Baker or Poppy -- he should be throwing 'em into the clinker for war profiteering and the like.

Hawkeye-X

[blm]

17. Dean disagrees with you. He thinks Bush1's foreign policy was "excellent"

What Kerry is doing here is making the conservatives question the recklessness of Bush2 on the Mideast by comparing it to Bush2. I highly doubt Kerry would send Baker anywhere.

[Hep]

66. Your recent posts

assume that we should all believe that Bush I was TERRIBLE with foreign policy. Care to share exactly what about his policy sucked so bad? I'm asking honestly. I know that as a republican and father to W we're supposed to hate him, but what specifically do you take issue with?

[dansolo]

70. He screwed the Kurds and the Shiites in Iraq after GW1

Saddam could have been overthrown without an invasion of Bagdad after the first Gulf War if we just enforced the no-fly zones and shot down Saddam's helecopters. Instead Bush Sr. just sat back and let Saddam stick around and slaughter the people in the uprising. And I believe that Bush, Baker, et al conspired with the Kuwaitis to trigger the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, setting the stage for all that followed. I will acknowledge that Bush Sr. was a lot smarter when it came to foreign policy than his son and his administration, but there is no question that his policies, going all the way back to his alleged interference with the Iran hostages, have been detrimental to our country.

[pruner]

15. maybe he's gonna take them down to Strawberry Fields

Living is easy with eyes closed
Misunderstanding all you see
It's getting hard to be someone but it all works out
It doesn't matter much to Kerry

[joanski01]

16. It must be the DLC

influence that makes Kerry say things like this. Doesn't he realize how angry we are at that bunch of crooks and liars?

[killbotfactory]

19. Kerry is simply unelectable

You don't get to make 100 gaffes a day and still be president. (current president excluded)

[DrFunkenstein]

21. What Was This Reporter Smoking? H.W. Bush?

Where the hell did he get H.W. Bush? Damn that liberal media!

"In the first days of a Kerry Administration, I will appoint a Presidential Ambassador to the Peace Process who will report directly to me and the Secretary of State – and who will work day-to-day to move that process forward. There are a number of uniquely qualified Americans who I would consider appointing, including: President Carter, former Secretary of State James Baker, or, as I suggested almost two years ago, President Clinton."

Nowhere does Kerry mention anything about Poppy Bush. You are free to look, though.

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2003_1203.html

Mentioning Clinton and Carter would get no press coverage. Throwing Baker in gets him a headline from the Big Media determined to ignore him. Guess that's what you get for opposing Michael Powell.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

23. How did he miss that?

Lame! Bad enough that Kerry throws a bone to Baker. I can't imagine him suggesting he would try to appoint anyone named "Bush" in his administration.

But I also don't think Kerry did this just to get it in the news. This is not exactly the kind of press he wants or needs.

[paulk]

65. Why did Kerry do this?

Because he's trying to drive a wedge between the corporate Republicans exemplified by Poppy's camp (Brent Scowcroft, James Baker), who opposed the Iraq invasion, and the neocons (Wolfie, Perle, Cheney and the rest of the PNAC crowd) who talked Poppy's idiot son into it.

He's sending a message to the more traditionally conservative Republicans out there, many who are just as disenchanted with Bush's foreign policy as any Democrat, that he's willing to work with them, at least as far as foreign policy goes.

[Melinda]

24. Kerry did a Q&A after the speech

Says so in the article, so I think it's safe to assume Poppy came up at that event:

Kerry said he would appoint special envoys to the Middle East and elsewhere, hoping to tap former commanders in chief such as Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton or even the current president's father, George H.W. Bush. Prior to the speech, Kerry spoke to Carter and Clinton.

"There's great talent out there, with people who've been through this," Kerry said during a question-and-answer session after his speech. "The United States has always been the leverage, if you will, the broker of goodwill to try to bring the parties together."

[RevolutionStartsNow]

28. Well, it's also safe to assume that the reporter was high

Is there any transcript of the Q&A?

If Kerry said he would enlist Poppy Bush to help, I could only take that as sarcastic.

[Scott Lee]

39. Here's the quote, Dr. Funkenstein

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20031203_1989.html

<<snip>>
"Kerry said he would appoint special envoys to the Middle East and elsewhere, hoping to tap former commanders in chief such as Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton or even the current president's father, George H.W. Bush. Prior to the speech, Kerry spoke to Carter and Clinton."
<<snip>>


Now, unless you are calling the reporter a liar and can present conclusive evidence to that effect, I guess your claim that Bush I wasn't even mentioned is so much......smoke.

Aye?

[_Jumper_]

25. Bush I and Baker tried to stop the construction of Israeli settlements

Has any other administration done that?

[Melinda]

26. Baker represents the Saudi's against the 9/11 families.

Has any other former administration official done that?

[killbotfactory]

29. Is Kerry a closet Saudi apologist?

When candidates were asked how their foreign policies would reflect concern for women’s rights on the international stage, Dean took criticism from Kerry for indicating he would impose sanctions on Saudi Arabia .

“Before you shoot from the hip and sanction Saudi Arabia ,” Kerry said, “consider what we get from Saudi Arabia .”

http://www.politicsnh.com/archives/pindell/2003/November/11_6debate.shtml

[Scott Lee]

42. Yaa Allah! He really said that??

Oh lordy....this is painful to watch.

[Melinda]

33. Kerry just lost another one.

My brother in law has assured me time and time again that Kerry is the one candidate that can and will expose the BFEE for all the evil they have wrought on this world. And then he read this article and Kerry's fawning of James Baker III.

It's an official family announcement- John Kerry just lost one of us.

[baldguy]

34. How about Bill Clinton as Mideast Envoy?

Oh, yea. That would actually make sense.

[blm]

36. That's what Kerry has been saying for two years now. Clinton.

He threw out Baker as a "consideration" only to get the attention of conservatives who hate Bush2's lack of diplomacy on the I/P region.

[pruner]

38. pathetic…

making up excuses isn't good enough for you? you've gotta make up motives as well?

[Scott Lee]

40. Don't worry - they can always kickstart an old hate thread.

When information runs dry, go on the attack again.

[sistersofmercy]

48. Excuse me but the civilized individuals who support Kerry do not

go around DU needlessly bashing the other cadidates or making juvenile attempts at humor. Your statement offers great insight to your motives on this thread which are merely oppositional and not for understanding the candidate. Did you happen to notice the statement about Papa Bush was not in quotations?

[pruner]

51. what about James "fuck the Jews, they don't vote for us anyways" Baker?

:shrug:

[sistersofmercy]

52. Anger as main motivation isn"t healthful,tends to be counterproductive

in reasoned debate.
However, I believe Clinton would be the prime choice here.

[Scott Lee]

54. Then the sensible Kerry supporters need to get a handle on their

children on DU....and they know who they are. I would agree that most Kerry supporters tend to be respectful, intellectually curious and rational - but as in all other things, it's their loud little kindergarten of assholes that get most of the attention.

My suggestion is that you educate them, so they do not bring down the thunder on John Kerry's head when, let's admit it, John needs all the support he can get at this juncture.

[paulk]

63. you're the one who needs to educate yourself

the world isn't as black and white as you would like it to be.

That world considers James Baker to be one our nation's preeminent statesmen when it comes to the middle east. That world could care less about our partisan scrabbles, if someone like Baker could help bring peace to that region of the world.

If you want to characterize some Kerry supporters as a "loud little kindergarten of assholes" you need to go look in a mirror. The only reason I've kept you off ignore so far is because you're obviously smart enough to grow up and start acting like an adult on this board.

[blm]

45. What was Dean's motive for saying Poppy's foreign policy was "excellent"

on Hardball?

Contrasting Bush1 with Bush2?

Or did he really mean that Poppy 's foreign policy was excellent?

[killbotfactory]

46. Bush 1 had a multilateral coalition and UN sanction

Bush 2 didn't.

Would be my guess.

[blm]

50. And he was drawing attention for contrast?

Like Kerry on the mideast?

It's a longtime political play. Like when Republicans would use Clinton on something they wanted support on, even though they hate him.

[Scott Lee]

55. Tapping GHWB for a MidEast diplomatic position is like

Putting John Wayne Gayce in charge of a boys summer camp. Not the brightest of moves.

[Forkboy]

49. Stop using Dean as a defense of Kerry

You keep saying that Dean supporters are jumping on Kerry while giving Dean a pass,but I'm not a Dean supporter and I'm not going to give either of them a pass when they say or do something as stupid as Kerry saying what he did about Baker.You attacking Dean supporters is a weak attempt at deflection and makes you look as unobjective as the Dean supporters you seem to hate so much.

Kerry is not the god you seem to think he is.He's a good man who is running a terrible campaign and stupid things like this are the reason why he hasn't gained any traction at all.

You can spin this any way you choose.You can attempt to change this to a Dean issue.You can say he doesn't really mean it.The fact remains he said it.

End of story.

[Scott Lee]

35. I got one!! How about Hannibal Lecter for the Dept. of Human Services?

Jeezus.

[goforit]

37. WOW!!!!......A Skull n Boner through and through!!!..

Spilling from the lips of the source!!!!


KERRY .......you're a schmuck!!!!!!!!!!!

[Scott Lee]

41. huhuhuh huhuhuh huhh....you said Boner....huhuhuhuh

[poskonig]

43. There is a difference between a policy and being an envoy.

I believe Poppy's policy on Iraq was sound. A former director of the CIA probably isn't the best choice for Middle Eastern Envoy.

This is probably a mistake for Kerry, but hell, nobody's perfect. It isn't like Kerry would actually send someone like Baker; he's probably just trying to look good to moderates.

[Marines for Clark]

53. Kerry looked good today on his Forign Policy speech

As a Clark supporter I though Kerry was very impressive tonday on his Foriegn Policy speech

" Ask what you can do for your country not what your country can do for you"

[IndianaGreen]

62. Kerry plagiarized Kennedy's Inaugural line?

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

-- President John F. Kennedy

Who is writing Kerry's speeches, Joe Biden?

[Forkboy]

71. Thats just Marine's sig line

[IndianaGreen]

56. Score one for Wesley Clark!

Kerry also suggested former Secretary of State James Baker as a possible envoy, a proposal that drew criticism from rival Wesley Clark, who called the notion of using the Republican who played a role in the 2000 Florida recount "offensive."

In a quick retort, the Kerry campaign said national security should trump party politics in light of the threats the nation faces.

Kerry's first sin of the day is that he spoke to those imperialistic old farts of the Council on Foreign Relations (can you spell K-I-S-S-I-N-G-E-R?).

Kerry's second sin of the day is to say that he is going to rely on the leaders of the Establishment and coincidentally, chief counsel for Junior during the Florida recount, as a possible envoy to the Middle East.

Kerry is too much a creature of Georgetown, and he is too comfortable with his old Skull & Bones pals.

Score one for Wesley Clark!

[Forkboy]

60. I agree

Clark's response was right on target.He get's it.Kerry seems clueless at times.

[Northwind]

61. What's this?

The corrupt Washington insider scratching the backs of OTHER corrupt Washington insiders? How shocking!

Can't wait for Dr. Dean to get rid of these cockroaches.

[AntiCoup2K4]

64. And Kerry's OUTTA here....

Strike 1 - refusing to renounce Skull & Bones

Strike 2 - Consulting known PNAC'ers for his campaign

Strike 3 - Choosing a lifelong BCE operative and one of the main architects of the FLORIDA COUP, James Baker as a mythical "envoy" to the Middle East.

If Kerry's not part of the Bush Criminal Empire himself, he's sure going out of his way to look like one.

Fuck him, he's done! :grr:

[NewYorkerfromMass]

68. Like most of the rabid baseless objections to Kerry's suggestion here

all this pathetic whining does is make liberals look like America haters just like the right tries to paint us.

BTW, Baker was not an architect of the coup, just a counsel to the defense after the fact. It's not the same thing as Jeb or Kathy- not even close.

[Forkboy]

69. "not even close."

It is to enough people that Kerry should know better.

[FrenchieCat]

67. I think that I saw

James Baker's ugly and arrogant face enough during Recount/don't count 2000. How dare any one bring his name up again. Isn't he like a Bechtel pin up doll or something?

GO Clark GO!

[fujiyama]

72. James Baker of all people?

Echhh! Talk about an obnoxious creep (Baker, not Kerry).

What the hell is wrong with Kerry? Does he possibly think that considering one of the most despised people in democratic circles for a foreign policy post will help him win the nomination?

I really am VERY dissapointed in Kerry. He seemed so strong after the coup.

Then again Dean's praise of Bush I's FP was just as stupid.

My God, what is the deal with all this praise of Poppy's FP? Yes, he got a coalition together but any half wit could do that when a nation (that was never very much liked in the Arab world in the first place) invades another...

What the hell is wrong with these two?

Yes, score one for Clark. Then again it's unfortunate he's got his own ties to Kissinger from what I've heard.

Why can't we craft a decent FP not relying on old corrupt state department insiders?