Clarkie at last night's Dean meet-up

[JNelson6563]

Last night at the table I sat at during the meet-up was a Clark supporter. He was young and while open about supporting Clark in the primaries, he seemed to think he was very clever about evading pretty generic questions.

The most interesting part of our discussion though was regarding other candidates. I told him I found the General to be a class act with some good things to say but that a lot of his supporters were quite the opposite. He asked what I was talking about. I told him of "on-line behavior" of supporters here. How there are many who came very recently and racked up massive post-counts in a short time by basically bashing Dean all the time.

Here's where it gets very interesting.

He frowned and informed me he went to some training or seminar (not sure what it was) put on by the Clark campaign here in Michigan. He said that actually they discouraged such behavior. Said they preferred Clark supporters discuss Clark positions, accomplishments, etc.

He seemed to feel that campaigns and their supporters talking about Dean all the time did Dean a lot of good. I agreed whole-heartedly. Smiling.

Funny how real life interactions with folks who support other candidates are so much more civil and productive than those on-line.

Julie

[KittyWampus]

1. Sorry

stupid mistake on my part.

[JNelson6563]

4. What?

I don't have much of a bias against Clark. Not sure what you are even talking about.

Care to enlighten me?

Julie

On edit: Looks like it was a false accusation. ;-)

[KittyWampus]

5. I apologise

There was a Johnny Nelson doing this.

I already deleted my post.. please check your PM.

[JNelson6563]

8. apology accepted

I was confused.

Julie

[Renew Deal]

13. Johnny Nelson was a freeper from last night.

He is no longer part of our community. I think calling us all yellow bellied socialists really was a sign.

[Mika]

25. calling us all yellow bellied socialists really was a sign

Hmmm.. I've been repeatedly called such things by DUers with large post counts for my support of Cuba's sovereignty and my support for Dem candidates who espouse ending the sanctions on Cuba. None of them get shitcanned. That's a good thing about the big tent here at DU. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: It takes more than just calling DUers yellow bellied socialists to get the axe.

[KittyWampus]

33. Thanks To Jeannie For Being Gracious

in accepting my apology.

[Don_G]

2. I Agree

One loud-mouthed Clark supporter can do more damage to his canididate than a thousand Freepers could possibly imagine.

[Justice]

3. Clark Supporters

are out there and on here to promote Wes Clark, not to be against anyone else. To be for Wes Clark or for Howard Dean is not to be anti-anyone else.

There are some very over zealous supporters (or plants) of ALL candidates on DU - but particularly Dean and Clark. I think part of the problem here is the ratcheting up by both camps back and forth.

Julie, you are very balanced in your remarks as a Dean supporter. I appreciate that enormously.

Thanks for your post.

[xultar]

6. Thanks for your post! You're pretty kewl Jules...

Are you in MI! I was just there on assignment. I'm back in GA now. I went to Albion. We should chat about MI sometime.
Turra

[Keebs]

7. yay

Now this is more like it. More getting along than fighting. The problem with Dems is that we are so split up. We gotta stand together and I feel better after reading this thread, as apposed to some of the others around here.

:toast:

[JNelson6563]

18. I am in the beautiful north

If you make it up my way let me know. We'll get together and say nice things about each other's candidates and have a cocktail. ;-)

A few cocktails later we could bash all the others. haha (just kidding)

Julie

[Kahuna]

9. What a load.

The pot calls the kettle black.

[Keebs]

10. Looks like

I spoke too soon

[mrgorth]

11. You had to know

this was coming.

[Keebs]

12. Well

Can't hurt to be a little optimistic. I don't care what anyone says, in the end.. people may be dissapointed, but we will all stick together and support our dem. I have faith in us. Well, I'm trying anyway.

[JNelson6563]

16. this is the second accusation from you

will you back this one up?

You didn't the last:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=811974#812772

How about some evidence to back up your claims?

Julie

[Skwmom]

14. Dean bashing?

Someone has to speak the truth about Dean since many in the corporate controlled media are failing to do so. Dean has unfairly smeared many of the other candidates since day one. When people want to discuss Dean's actual record vs his rhetoric, his talking out of both sides of his mouth, etc., it is called Dean bashing. Isn't that what the RNC calls exposing the truth about Bush (Bush bashing)?

[Hep]

15. Yeah yeah

Whatever. The thing is you're captain Dean Dean Dean. I don't even know who you support. Not that I care. It's just odd. You don't support anyone here as it would seem, you just oppose. It's cool. Whatever you want.

We had an Edwards supporter and a Kucinich supporter. We all ha dvery good conversations at our meetup. I would venture to say that non Dean supporters had more productive discussions at OUR meetup than their own, if they even had one.

[JNelson6563]

17. spare me your self-righteous indignation

Maybe ya missed this part:

He frowned and informed me he went to some training or seminar (not sure what it was) put on by the Clark campaign here in Michigan. He said that actually they discouraged such behavior. Said they preferred Clark supporters discuss Clark positions, accomplishments, etc.

Besides, many threads are started by Clark supporters as retaliation to anything negative said about him. I can't count how many times I have read nonsense like that as an excuse. I'll ask why some basher doesn't spend more time doing something positive for thier candidate and they almost always inform me that their current effort is for retaliation, pure and simple. They don't lie or anything. They proudly announce it.

Funny how a classy guy like Clark can attract some who are quite the opposite of himself.

Julie, who appreciates the irony

[sangh0]

19. Maybe it's because

Funny how a classy guy like Clark can attract some who are quite the opposite of himself.

after Clark announced his candidacy, a number of Dean's supporters switched to Clark

[JNelson6563]

22. hence the "some"

No blanket statements here. I happen to think there are fabulous folks in every camp. Just as there are not-so-fabulous folks in every camp.

But hey, that's just me.

Julie

[Hep]

39. STOP IT!

Your fairness is received like acid on the skull by the haters. They just don't get it.

[sangh0]

55. The irony!!

JNelson posts a fair response, and Hep demands that she stop that.

[Scott Lee]

64. 24/7 - all Dean Bash, all the time

sangha go for it....I think there's a world record in here somewhere!

[Hep]

66. It's amazing!

I don't have to be able to READ sanghas post to know JNelson was being called out. Look at how she defended herself. Sanghas didn't even know how to react to a resoned post. I'm just trying to protect them from head explosion. They may HATE my guy, but I'd hate to see them fizzle out over it.

[sangh0]

69. I called it a fair response

You asked her to "Stop it"

[in_cog_ni_to]

20. Too bad

Dean's campaign doesn't discourage such behavior. Maybe Dean should hold behavior modification seminars for his supporters. The worse offenders of candidate bashing (on DU) are the Dean supporters....and 3 or 4 DUers who hate Clark because of his military background....and they know who they are. JMCPO

[Hep]

21. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

It's always the other guys who are worse! Whatev!

Thanks for conjuring up images of family vacationss. "MOOOOOOM, Bobby hit me!"

"You started it"

"no you did"

jesus. Either be aq jerk or don't be a jerk. Please don't act like a jerk while complaining about the jerkitude of others.

At our meetup we were inviting of supporters of other candidates, and we encouraged them to share their thoughts on why they aren't Dean supporters (yet). No one browbeated them. No one shamed them. It was productive. I guess it's a good thing YOU weren't there.

[sangh0]

24. More Dean hypocrisy

When JNelson complains about the bahavior of Clark's supporters, Hep sees nothing to criticize. WHen someone else complains about the behavior of Dean's supporters, it's "It's always the other guys who are worse! Whatev!" followed by schoolyard taunts (ex. "jesus", "jerk", etc)

[HFishbine]

31. And this makes Dean hypocritical how?

???

[Hep]

35. It's about Dean?

I don't know how "Ignored" brought Dean into this. The point is that some people are here to be assholes and some people are here for discussion. They know who they are, most of them, and some actually manage to put an OK front up, while others don't even bother. Dean supporters, Kerry supporters, everyone's supporters include individuals who are just JERKS. The most obvious and biggest jerks are the ones who single out others for being jerks. Bottom line. They know who they are. They can't all be named "ignored"

[sangh0]

44. Yes, every candidate has some jerky supporters

and I would include in that group people who think "It's OK when my candidates supporters do it, but it's terrible when another candidate's supporters do it"

They know who they are.

I suspect you don't

They can't all be named "ignored"

Not until DU's software let's you put yourself on ignore

[JNelson6563]

48. haha pretty funny...

I don't know how "Ignored" brought Dean into this.

<snarf>

Julie

[Hep]

49. Usually around 10:30 my time

the "ignored"'s pop up like clockwork. The sun rises, and the jerks crawl out from their rocks one more time to spend their day bashing.

What they need is love in their lives. What they need is to have been breastfed.

[sangh0]

57. For someone you're ignoring

you seem pretty aware of my schedule. I'm flattered.

[Forkboy]

67. Your schedule is pretty easy to notice

practically 9-5 daily,almost like it's your job.

[Hep]

68. Lemme guess

THis is fun. OK, it was sangh0 who posted. And some snide comment was made about me knowing what time he starts posting.

Am I close?

So I'm observant, so what? I can't help it if it's actually Fun to post here for about an hour and a half every morning.

[sangh0]

40. It doesn't make Dean hypocritical

Dean has been a hypocrit for a lot longer than Hep has been posting. It's just another example of the hypocrisy surrounding Dean and his campaign

[HFishbine]

45. It doesn't?

Oh, okay. 'Cause when you wrote "more Dean hypocricy" it sounded like you were finding something in that post that made Dean a hypocrite.

[sangh0]

58. Your mistake

was to not realize that the word "Dean" in that sentence is an adjective, and not a proper noun.

[JNelson6563]

27. Really? You know this?

The Dean campaign doesn't discourage such behavior? Have you been to any Dean-campaign sponsored events? I have. Someone mentioned another candidate and was basically told we're working to get Dean elected, not discuss the others.

The event I attended was strictly business. No smearing nonsense. How can you focus on making positive efforts for your candidate if you are busy with negative efforts for another?

You can't.

I suppose with that in mind I should encourage all the Dean Haterz to work even harder on their bash efforts. All time wasted there isn't spent promoting Dean's opponents....

And it really helps with the name recognition issue. :-)

Julie

[Hep]

36. The best part is

what they're doing is in direct conflict with what their candidate asks of them. Spoiled children.

[in_cog_ni_to]

47. I've been to 4 Dean Meet Ups.

I USE to be a supporter. I never heard anyone say to me..."Do not bash other candidates." And, I never heard them say "Go out and bash candidates." I am basing my opinion on the behavior of the Dean supporters on DU. Not the rest of the world. They have spent so much time on DU, bashing Clark, that I am to the point of NOT working for or donating money to the Dean campaign...should he happen to win the nomination. I didn't feel that way after I decided to support Clark. I feel that way SOLELY because of the Clark bashing on DU. It's been ridiculous. I might add, I'm NOT surprised that the Clark campaign seminars discourage bashing other candidates. He is the one candidate who has taken the HIGH ROAD in that regard.

[Hep]

52. I'd love to know where you live

Sure we get heated up about the antics of other candidates, and sometimes we vent in our own circles. But we don't openly criticise other candidates at meetups and that's POLICY. Meetup hosts in my area meet evrey month to discuss agendas and such, and the most important thing we convey to new hosts is to NEVER foster negativity. Repsect how others feel, engage them in a amiable way, learn from them, because THEY are the ones who make us stronger advocates.

I'm sorry your meetup hosts may not be that on top of shit. What can you expect from the grassroots? I am el comandante cero!

[in_cog_ni_to]

59. Obviously,

you didn't read my post. :eyes: I live in Illinois.

[Hep]

61. Obviously

you started talking about meetups and what you've NEVER heard. Then you go on to generalize about Dean supporters, basically showing off your hypocrisy.

What did miss?

[sangh0]

70. Here's what you missed

I am basing my opinion on the behavior of the Dean supporters on DU. Not the rest of the world.

[Jerseycoa]

23. Funny thing, perspective

"bashing Dean all the time"

The problem is that even asking a question about Dean or his policies is taken as a bash and sets off a flurry of snide, demeaning, often outright insulting comments in Dean's "defense." These do come from the same cast of characters, obviously, and not the majority, but it can put a person over the edge when it's day in and day out this way. Attack doesn't always have to be the response to dissent, but before you know it, we're at each others throats.

Some people don't like Clark; some people don't like Dean. For some reason, for some people, this is downright unacceptable, if not un-American, and warrants an incessant drumbeat of "my candidate's better than your candidate," nyah, nya, nya.

I would rather discuss points at issue than go negative. So would you, Julie, and so would, say, Tom Rinaldo, and so would most Clark or Dean supporters. But in order to understand, we have to be free to doubt and ask the questions we have without the stormtroopers arriving and beating down any opposition.

The only solution I can come up with is to "Ignore" people who on a repeated basis engage in ignorant flaming and tit for tat negativity. I might miss something here and there, but I'd rather see intelligent discourse on the candidates and their platforms, including honest criticism and substantive argument.

And your Clark supporter at the Dean Meetup was right about what Gen. Clark wants from his campaign supporters.

Thanks for posting this. Who knows? It might even get us somewhere.

[Hep]

32. Give me a break

You need to take a broader approach. The same thing happens when anyone says anything about Clark or Kerry.

I mean, I brought up question about Clark recently, making a point to mention how much I LIKE him, and was attacked from all sides as a basher. Only two, maybe three people engaged me fairly. This problem is rampant, and singling out one group of people doesn't help.

[Jerseycoa]

60. Sorry

I was trying to represent a group, not attack another. I apologize.

[Hep]

63. Don't worry

The rumbling has been pretty much between Dean people and Clark people, Dean people and Kerry people. Kind of weird that there hasn't been as much between Kerry and Clark people. But it'll happen. Don't worry!

We just need to keep in mind that it is a TYPE OF PERSON who is responsible for this crap. Not the campaign or the candidate, just that this TYPE of person is found in all camps.

[jumptheshadow]

46. I know I asked a sincere question about Dean

And I was told to Google for it. I thought, "This person represents the Dean camp very poorly."

I cringed when I saw a Clark supporter come up with the same snide response when a Dean supporter asked a question the other day.

[Hep]

54. But it's hard to know everything

When I don't know an answer, I ask for an email address, or I give it to them so that I can pursue the question and find an answer. Sometimes we have to say "I don't know" at meetups. We're not paid or anything, you know? We know what we know.

[Rowdyboy]

26. There's enough blame for assholish behavior to go around....

Clark, Dean, Kucinich and Kerry all have "supporters" who are an embarrassement to the campaigns. I'd love to go to a Dean meet-up, not to disrupt, but to see if I recognized any friends from college there. We're not each others enemies, people, in spite of a few pitbulls on each side.

Congrats, again, to the Deaners for Molly Ivins endorsement. Hers is one I the few that I really care about and, if Clark couldn't have it, I'm glad Dean could. :toast:

[Fleshdancer]

34. I agree

We definately all have embarrassing supporters...well, maybe not Lieberman but I don't have to tell you why.

We're excited about the Ivins endorsement, thanks for the kind words! :)

[Hep]

38. You're welcome at my meetup anytime

It's at a bar!

[Rowdyboy]

51. Thats the only meet-up location

I would go to! You gotta go where the people are...

I think I've got a Clark meet-up in Jackson on the 15th (the first one was cancelled). I haven't signed up for Dean meet-ups because, though he is my second choice, I'm not sure if its appropriate.

[Fleshdancer]

28. great story

For the Clark campaign to have training seminars that discourage harping on other candidates shows what a class act this candidate is. Clark supporters should be proud of that.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

29. Excuse Me!!!!!!!!!!!!! Deanies are the most obnouxious people....

on this board. I have heard many anti-military comments on this board and there has been a great deal of hostility towards the military. This is NOT justified. There is a great deal of mistrust against General Clark because he has just recently become a Democrat.
He was always a liberal/progressive/democrat. Military people are not overt in their political ideology. Eisenhower was always a Republican at heart but that didn't mean that he was always political. Military people are not suppost to be this way.

I am damn tired of hearing about how bad we Clark supporters are!!!
Do you know how many Dean supporters on this board said that they will not support Clark if he is the nomminee??? Many, but not all, Deanies have to remember that their are other people who support other candidates on this board too.

:dem:

[Capn Sunshine]

30. Just as an aside

The ONLY place I see the word "DEANIE" in online at DU

Wonder why

[Fleshdancer]

37. Thank you for the sweeping generalization

I'm an Army brat...just about every man (and a handful of women) I'm blood related to have served in the military. Right now I'm dealing with my brother going back to Iraq so as far as anti-military comments go, I assure you that you've never heard it from this "obnouxious" Deanie. :eyes:

[JNelson6563]

41. No broad brush here

As I have said before, I know there are good and bad in all camps. When I was talking to this fellow last night I let him know it was "some" Clark supporters here, certainly not all.

I'd like to think that the majority of posters here are ABB, I know I am.

As far as I am aware though, when it comes to a handful of Clarkies, it is the only camp that has folks who've been here like 6 weeks and have 1000+ post counts (or many hundreds--whatever). Do a quick search and see just what those 1000+ posts consist of.

Don't take my word for it, check it out.

Julie

[Hep]

42. There it is again

singling out. It's SO STUPID! You have to recognize that this isn't a problem with ONE campaign or it's supporters. You HAVE to realize that. Jesus, you're adding to it and you don't even know it. How fucked up is THAT?

[Scott Lee]

65. And you're nicknamed "Progressive"? Oh the IRONY....

[Capn Sunshine]

43. There were Clarkies at my meetup too

Was this some sort of "field op?" I think they are trying to tap into what makes us "different". I spoke to them about Clark Meetups and in this part of the world they are attracting similar numbers, but one sadi "Frankly" there's no "vibe" there like you have...I'm not sure what it is". Unlike Julie I did NOT mention the behavior of Clark supporters on DU; I live in the real world ,and no one knows about DU there. There's more I learned about the Clark organization, but why start a flame war. Suffice it to say they are the last 20th century media campaign where Dean is the first 21st century internet campaign.

[Fleshdancer]

50. question for all of us

just slightly off topic, but on this thread, I'm reading a lot of "Deanies" and "Clarkies". Am I the only one who thinks this sounds stupid??? Sounds like names for beanie babies.

[Jerseycoa]

62. I do, too

It's revolting.

[Le Taz Hot]

53. I've found the same thing

There's a young gentlemen here who is an avid Clark supporter, is the Host of the local Clark Meet Up and is working his ass off for the Clark campaign. He's new to politics and has asked several of the local Dean supporters for guidance. We've been more than happy to give it to him as we all agree that we're all Democrats and we will support whomever gets the nomination. That really is what happens IRL.

[TopesJunkie]

56. You've got a very good point

The anonymity Online tends to make things more ugly. The meet-up idea is wonderful. I hope it spreads. It would be great to have some generic Dem for Pres meet-ups. That would do us all some good.