Like him or not, what's your advice for Dean?

[Gringo]

Poll question: Like him or not, what's your advice for Dean?

Assuming he gets the nomination.

[sangh0]

1. Other

Stop lying about your record. It's gonna bite you in the butt, bigtime!

[swittersnc]

4. what lies has he told?

and please cite references.

[sangh0]

15. There's a long list

and I'm not about to write a detailed description of each and every one of them, complete with footnotes, simply because you ask for it. If it were just one, I'd detail it, but I have a life, and it takes time to document the scads of lies emanating from Dean's campaign. But here's a quick list of examples - BBA, AWB, Yucca Mtn, CFR, Iraq, his opponent's positions...

One with more detail concerns the reason for his sealing his gubernatorial correspondence. Dean has been saying that he doesn't want to release the papers in order to protect people's privacy, but two facts reveal he is lying:

1) The law requires the automatic redaction of any info that compromises a citizens privacy

2) At the time of the decision to not release the papers, Dean gave an interview to VT's public radio station where he said he wasn't releasing the papers in order to avoid being embarrased in future campaigns. Recently, Dean stated that that comment was made in jest.

Isn't it odd that the reason offered in jest makes sense, while the "real" reason (ie. privacy) does not?

[Keebs]

22. Right

"and I'm not about to write a detailed description of each and every one of them"

You cannot support what you spout, then don't spout it. I'll do the research, but you shouldn't just start spouting out crap unless you have at least some sort of website to back it up.

If he's so bad, go vote for Bush. Wtf is going on with you Dean haters?

[sangh0]

24. Do your own homework

I'm not here to educate you, and if you don't like that, take it up with the mods. Typical Deanie who thinks everyone else is for Bush*.

WTF is up with you Dem haters?

And I noticed you don't defend Dean for lying about why he won't release the papers. Dean has given TWO DIFFERENT excuses, and you don't say one word to reconcile the glaring disparity between what Dean is saying and what Dean has said.

[Keebs]

27. well then

I'll do the research, how many times must I say that before you acknowledge it? As far as lies and papers go....

WTF are you going to do if Dean gets the election? So, you hate him so damn much now.. what if he makes it?

I don't have answers to your "comments" Thats why I said I -will- research it.

Jesus. I feel like we aren't even on the same damn side.

You spout all this hate, then get pissed of when we spout hate back. Make up our mind, we're either gonna argue or we arent. But don't expect me to just sit back and let you run all over me.

[sangh0]

28. You demand more answers?

If you don't know the facts, then how do you know what I said is "crap" (your word)??

Are you denying that Dean gave a radio interview and said he didn't want to be embarrassed in the future by releasing the papers? It's in yesterdays NY Times.

Are you denying that Dean is NOW saying it's to protect people's privacy?

Are you denying that the law in VT REQUIRES the AUTOMATIC redaction of private info? That also is in yesterday's NY Times.

I don't have answers to your "comments" Thats why I said I -will- research it.

But you know enough to call it "crap"

[Keebs]

33. yes

I said crap. I do know enough to call it crap. It sounds like some shit Rush Limbaugh would spout. You can manipulate lots of situations to suit your needs. I'm sorry if I don't follow blindly behind what someone tells me.

You finally gave sources, thats nice. I do believe thats all the first person asked you for was some sort of sources to back up your statements. Was it so hard?

I could sit here all day and just pull shit out of my ear and not give any sort of sources for it.

Now from what you've said, I can already see that it's a bunch of CRAP.

"Are you denying that Dean gave a radio interview and said he didn't want to be embarrassed in the future by releasing the papers?"

"Are you denying that Dean is NOW saying it's to protect people's privacy?"

So, if you violated someones privacy - would you not be embarrased?

"Are you denying that the law in VT REQUIRES the AUTOMATIC redaction of private info? That also is in yesterday's NY Times."

Well, I guess it isn't to private if you have to make it public. Just because it is law doesn't make it right. Unless you support the NRA and the death penalty.

[sangh0]

34. I'll be more clear

Well, I guess it isn't to private if you have to make it public.

The law doesn't require that the papers be made public. If it did, we wouldn't be discussing why Dean hasn't released the papers. What the laws says is that if something is released, info that infringes on people's privacy will be automatically redacted.

IOW, Dean's claim that he's withholding the papers to protect people's privacy is a sham because the law already protects people's privacy. Furthermore, in another thread in GD, an article reports that Dean has released people's private info in the past.

[Keebs]

43. so

now all of a sudden the media are all knowing, all truth telling, corporations?

I'm sorry.. but you can twist and manipulate truths to your own will, as needed.

I'm sorry you are so gullable. I'm not however. And honestly, this shit doesn't really matter to me one teeny weeny bit.

There are MUCH more important things to worry about. So you have fun with your happy happy Dean bashin'. If you think there is one politician without a flaw, you're very much confused.

[sangh0]

44. Awfully little detail for someone who demands that other provide detail

You don't identify any mistakes or inaccuracies on my part. You just claim they are there. Again:

Are you denying that Dean gave a radio interview and said he didn't want to be embarrassed in the future by releasing the papers?

Are you denying that Dean is NOW saying it's to protect people's privacy?

Are you denying that the law in VT REQUIRES the AUTOMATIC redaction of private info? That also is in yesterday's NY Times.

Instead of attacking my credibility, why won't you even try to address the issue?

[Keebs]

46. do you read anything?

Try re-reading post 33. Jesus. Why must everything be repeated for you?

[sangh0]

47. I read #33

You don't answer the questions. You ask questions, and make some ridiculous attack about my releasing private info. The law prohibits the release of that info.

[Keebs]

48. Nope

I answered your questions. It's not my fault you can't understand what I'm saying. If those answers aren't good enough for you. Well tough tuccus.

Now, If you'll excuse me, I'm leaving this "anyone but dean" thread.

You people make me ill. Seriously seriously ill.

[HFishbine]

30. And aliens killed Elvis

If you don't believe it, your WRONG. But, I'm not going to tell you how I know, you do your own homework!

[sangh0]

35. Then I'll ask you

Are you denying that Dean gave a radio interview and said he didn't want to be embarrassed in the future by releasing the papers? It's in yesterdays NY Times.

Are you denying that Dean is NOW saying it's to protect people's privacy?

Are you denying that the law in VT REQUIRES the AUTOMATIC redaction of private info? That was also is in yesterday's NY Times

[HFishbine]

37. Whaaa?

No. I'm saying aliens killed Elvis -- can't you read?

[sangh0]

40. Won't answer the questions?

Are you denying that Dean gave a radio interview and said he didn't want to be embarrassed in the future by releasing the papers? It's in yesterdays NY Times.

Are you denying that Dean is NOW saying it's to protect people's privacy?

Are you denying that the law in VT REQUIRES the AUTOMATIC redaction of private info? That was also is in yesterday's NY Times

[swittersnc]

38. Nobody asked you for an education

i asked you to back up your claims with valid references. unless you are willing/able to do that you're just spouting your own opinion.

[sangh0]

42. You're right

and I apologze for being snippy with you. However, in one of my posts, I do identify an article in yesterday's NY Times which supports my claims.

[Hawkeye-X]

36. A long list with NO evidence to back it up

As usual :eyes:

[sangh0]

41. Ok, you can have shot too

Are you denying that Dean gave a radio interview and said he didn't want to be embarrassed in the future by releasing the papers? It's in yesterdays NY Times.

Are you denying that Dean is NOW saying it's to protect people's privacy?

Are you denying that the law in VT REQUIRES the AUTOMATIC redaction of private info? That was also is in yesterday's NY Times

[_NorCal_D_]

2. If he does get the nomination,

he should watch where he puts that foot! B-)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

3. Get Kerry to be the top of the ticket

with or without you on it.
Better yet, please drop out of the race and then apologize to the "cockroaches" in congress and others you have offended.

[Gringo]

10. Tom DeLay the Bug Man and Denny Hastert ARE cockroaches

why should he apologize?

[xJlM]

5. Big assumption

There's quite a long way between December and the Democratic nomination. Although the media seems to favor him, the American people may think differently. I have yet to actually meet a Dean supporter (I know there are a lot of you here, but I'm not sure what to believe about that).

[CBHagman]

6. Other: Don't take your base for granted.

You have a responsibility to reach out to women, African-Americans, Latinos, union members, people aged 18 to 25, gays and lesbians, the middle class, and the working class. Do not take anyone's support for granted.

[ACK]

7. Angry tone is fine ... his terms and off the cuff remarks... well

My advice to Dean:

Everyone knows there were very little in the way of middle class or working class tax cuts in the giveaway to the rich program Bush pushed through.

So, WTF, just say you are for keeping the middle class and working class portion of the tax cuts! Anything else opens him up to the critics as a "tax and spend" liberal and undercuts the borrow and spend Repuke arguement.

Never ever, ever, ever say the word re-regulation again. Sure, in many cases, this is what we all know is needed. You talk about curbing corporate excesses and abuses under deregulation. The term re-regulation justs screams for a Repuke attack ad.

Watch the off the cuff remarks. "Confederate flag" remarks are not going to get you into the whitehouse.

Keep up the grassroots efforts. It is so cool to see someone use new media (ie the web and the blogs and everything else) in a real way.

Keep up the fire but keep pounding the new ideas and the new vision.

That is all for now.

[AP]

20. "everyone knows" or "please everyone believe"?

In another thread Yupster said that three main middle class tax cuts in the Bush cuts:

1. Raising the child care credit from $ 400 per kid (600?) to $ 1,000 per kid.

2. Carving out a 10 % income bracket from the 15 % backet.

3. Reducing the marriage penalty.

4. (?) Reducing the 28 % bracket to 25 %. This is for people making over 50k or so. Depends on what your definition of middle class is. To me, making 75k a year is iddle class so this would be a big cut for those people.


Number three is crap. 1 is important. 2 and 4(?) are the definition of progressivity and should remain.

[democratreformed]

8. To some people,

it is a complete turn-off to be pointedly singled out over and over - even if it is in a good way. To me, continually pointing out "race" and "southerners" is a bit of a turn off. IMO, it is better to talk about issues important to those groups without saying "This is because they're ___". To me, it feels much more inclusive when a candidate speaks on issues that concern me without making it a point that a this is to make a particular group happy.

Did this make any sense at all?

[sidwill]

11. Drop out

and endorse Clark.


Or will that start a flame war?

[_NorCal_D_]

19. I agree.

Yes, this will cause a flame war. B-)

[Keebs]

13. yes but,

it IS an issue. It's an issue to "_____"! It's an issue to lots of people. Maybe he doesn't always word things in a way that makes everyone happy.. but at least he's trying.

How come "_____" can bring it up all the time, but if someone is trying to help "____" they get abused for it?

[Gringo]

16. Great point, I agree totally.

The way he approaches race is always awkward and makes me want to crawl out of my skin. It's like he's some college student talking about an abstract idea that he has no real experience with. He really outh to spend a LOT more time with people of color and reverend Sharpton, and hear their ideas on how to talk to people about race. The discussion should really transcend labels and be more about ideals and hope (without just being about platitudes)

[Jack Rabbit]

9. This isn't a good poll question

My general advice to Dean is to present some forward-looking ideas. Dean is one of the candidates among the most likely nominees who sounds more like he wants to oppose Bush, while one or two others sound like they want to be Bush's running mate. His early opposition to the Iraq war is highly appreciated, but it is time to tell the voters what he would do in Iraq that is not being done.

The war was a mistake. We know that. Those of us who were paying attention at the time and getting information from sources outside the US mainstream media knew it over a year ago. So, it seems, did Dr. Dean, while Lieberman, Kerry, Edwards and Gephardt syuck ther heads in the sand and voted for the IWR. However, that's yesterday; now we have to determine what is the best way out.

[Keebs]

18. ummm

"His early opposition to the Iraq war is highly appreciated, but it is time to tell the voters what he would do in Iraq that is not being done."

You've never actually been to a Dean rally have you? He HAS addressed things that he would do in/for Iraq.

[terrya]

12. Other: don't apologize or backtrack for your support of civil unions.

Gay marriage will be a major issue in this campaign. You said you signed the civil unions law in Vermont because it was "the right thing to do". Stay with that. You don't have to explain yourself. The GOP are the haters and homophobes. Don't take their bait.

One more bit of advice. Do NOT move to the right. You're a centrist. That's exactly where the undecideds are. Stay there.

And one more bit of advice. When (or if) you get the nomination: gather together a War Room, ala Bill Clinton's 1992 campaign. When the Bush campaign hits you, hit right back. HARD. Don't be seen as a pushover. Don't let the liars with the Bush campaign define this campaign.

And stay angry. That's what we need in this election.

[Bozola]

14. Don't ever get into a small plane.

[newsjunkie]

17. That middle class tax cut bothers me

and Kerry uses it against him all the time...so do some of the others. The middle class has suffered enough and if hes getting rid of the tax cuts for them he needs to explain better so they arent worried more about their economic outlook. I feel sure he will have good policies that will benefit them, but they may not think that and vote against him.
Also he should BEG General Clark to be running mate.

[Rowdyboy]

23. Absolutely....

This is the one issue Republicans can potentially destroy Dean with. Get rid of the stinking tax giveaways for the rich, but keep the middle-class portion. If not, he will regret it-even though his current position is the fiscally sound response.

[newsjunkie]

29. yes they will kill him on that issue

its the one thing in the debates that make me cringe when I hear it come up.
BTW,I just saw Gen Clark in New Hampshire on c-span and he was very impressive. He's brilliant. He and Dean would be a killer ticket. Chimp would look like the mental dwarf he is in glaring red ditto-head colors trying to run against them.

[readmylips]

21. All of the Above....good advise for Dr. Dean

I like...apologize with a bigger attack. Little man bush never apologizes no matter how wrong or stupid. Dr. Dean, don't get in the trap of apologizing and the media whores deman.

[begeegs]

25. I think...

Start from the center and run back to the left to undo all the crap Bush has done.

We know what really will happen...

Republican lite.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. Find your core values and run on them

I do not support Dean, and the reason is visceral rather than intellectual. He strikes me as wanting to be a crowd pleaser above all else, and admittedly, he is very good at that.

Bill Clinton's tragic flaw was that he backed down too easily if he thought that a position might be unpopular. When it came to dealing with the Congressional Republicans, that approach was like swimming into a school of sharks while bleeding from a wound.

Dean can work a crowd, there's no doubt about that, but where is the substance behind the style? What principles are really dear to his heart? Is there something that he believes in and would advocate even if it meant not being re-elected? Where is his overriding vision of the future of the United States?

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gringo]

32. Wow. And we Deanies are supposed to be the "angry, hostile" ones.

Are other Edwards backers so spiteful?

[deminflorida]

39. Just bend on the Middle Class Tax Increase Issue..

That's it just that one issue and Dean would be extremly hard to beat, if he could overcome the changing in mid-stream flack he would take (which would be sure to follow, note the Clark question stumble on the war support issue). But that one issue is definently a show stopper for Howard Dean in the general election if not the road to the nomination.

[dansolo]

45. Emphasize the people around Bush

Bush is relying on his likable public persona to avoid any close scrutiny of his policies. What Dean needs to do is to shine a lot of light on the machinations of people like Cheney, Rove, and Delay, who are the real power behind the Bush administration. People may "trust" Bush (*gack*), but that doesn't necessarily carry over to everyone else. The only way to tarnish Bush may be to hammer on his association over and over with the less savory characters around him. That will also serve to lessen the "Bush hatred" attacks.