What is happening to DU? (please read - long)

[DancingBear]

Congratulations, children. Mommy and Daddy are gone for the day, so you all decided to “play bad” on the PC, with your childish insults, half-crocked “research” and personal attacks.

Let’s recap, shall we? We have a thief in the White House, surrounded by a cabal determined to wipe the term democracy from the lexicon of America. We have kids dying by the hundreds so Arnold can drive his Hummer while he sets out to destroy the largest state in the land. We have fake flight suits and fake turkeys, fake numbers and fake news, all orchestrated by an all too real President Chucky and his band of puppeteers. Every Democrat on the face of this earth should wake up each day with one thought and one thought only – band together and get this bastard gone, while there is still time to save this nation. What better place to start than DU, wouldn’t you think?

But no, the kids will have none of that. Why, it’s much more fun to engage in a spitball fight, huh? “Dean goes skiing with a bad back!” Splat. “Clark not a true Democrat!” Splat. “Right!” “Wrong!” Splat. Splat. Splat. Gee, let’s mark the walls up with crayons before Mom gets home!

I am absolutely ashamed to be part of a community that engages in behavior such as this. I can think of no other way to say what I am thinking save for this: what is wrong with you? How on earth do you think ANY of the garbage that spews forth from your keyboards will advance the cause? It must be so nice to be all of you – sitting there overlooking your very own personal Political Pollyanna Ranch and wielding the branding iron of intolerance against those who dare stray from the path of The Chosen One. “Look – Dean is a tool for nuclear power! – Read this!” “Look – Clark is a tool for multi-nationals – Read this!” Why write this? Is a Clark supporter all of a sudden going to say “Gee, what a thoughtfully laid out post, I think I’ll reconsider”. Will a Dean supporter say, “Gee, what lovely use of innuendo, I’ll change my vote”. Of course not. These posts are not written to inform, they are written to inflame. Their smug tone suggests they are looking for the all-important “me too” response, waiting for their fellow spitballers to all chime in with “good one!” or “you got that right” or that old fav “LOL!”

To those of you who engage in (and by your responses encourage) these posts, I will say you have managed to do one thing. With each poisoned line, with each contemptuous assault against a fellow Democrat, you make me respect you just a little less. I suspect I am not alone in this, and I would like to think that perhaps you would see yourself and make amends. Sadly, I fear this is not the case.

Political passion is a wonderful thing. We come to these boards and work for our candidates because we feel it in our souls, more so than most others. As can be seen by my avatar, I support Wesley Clark. I came to my decision via political decisions, as did those who support other candidates. I will say here with absolutely honesty that Howard Dean is a fine man. I have listened to him many times, I respect him, and you can be damn sure that if he wins I will be the first to shake the hands of his supporters and ask to join them in their (now OUR) efforts to rid the world of Bush.

I love the world of political debate, and I love the interaction between opposing views. For those who feel the passion, make your arguments in an honest fashion. Respect those who disagree, and work hard to show your candidate in a POSITIVE light. Dean folks believe he can win throughout the country. Show us. Clark people believe he can take the South and neutralize Bush on national security issues. Show us how. We can never lose the passion, but we most assuredly can lose this putrid lack of decorum that is infiltrating this board.

For those that can do these things, I welcome you. For those children who can not, and who feel the need to insult, to demonize, and to bully, take out Sea Green and Burnt Sienna from the box of 64, turn to the farmhouse on page 12, and try and stay inside the lines.

[terrya]

1. All I can say is: thank you.

You've made some excellent points. I'm a new person, and I'm more than a bit uncomfortable sometimes watching us fight like this. You know, the Bush people are going to bring up a lot of shit in this election. We don't need to do this to ourselves.

I'm a Dean supporter, btw.

[Bunny]

2. Nicely done.

I couldn't have said it better, in fact I couldn't have said it at all. I'm not the most articulate person, so I usually stay out of GD. I'm staunchly ABB, so I also stay out of the candidate wars.

Many times folks have pleaded with everyone to please just get along, but some folks can't seem to deal with that concept. After our candidate is picked in the primaries, I hope the rule changes about bashing the nominee will shut the naysayers up.

[madrchsod]

3. i agree

yesterday was really bad,i guess that`s why the chief posted the new rule. i know people can get upset but come on,who is the enemy?

[Hep]

4. Some people are attracted to conflict

What's the big deal? I don't bash but I respond. And frankly, I don't know you, so respect me or don't respect me. I'll still buy you a beer sometime.

I find it interesting that you would create a thread to call out people for being mean and derogatory to others and at the same time make rude and condescending comments, calling people who simply have different personalities CHILDREN.

Check yourself before you wreck yourself, DancingBear. Life's too short for you to get worked up over NONSENSE.

[neuvocat]

46. Indeed!

I've seen many a post that was quite valuable slip away quickly and quietly because there wasn't anything to fight about on it.

[mikehiggins]

5. Presented for your consideration...

THREE FILTER TEST

In ancient Greece, Socrates was reputed to hold knowledge in high esteem. One day an acquaintance met the great philosopher and said, "Do you know what I just heard about your friend?"

"Hold on a minute," Socrates replied. "Before telling me anything, I'd like you to pass a little test. It's called the Three Filter Test."

"Three filter?"

"That's right," Socrates continued. "Before you talk to me about my friend, it might be a good idea to take a moment and filter what you're going to say. That's whyI call it the three filter test. The first filter is TRUTH. Have you made absolutely sure that what you are about to tell me is true?"

"No," the man said, "actually I just heard about it and..."

"All right," said Socrates. "So you don't really know if it's true or not. Now let's try the second filter, the filter of GOODNESS. Is what you are about to tell me about my friend something good?"

"No, on the contrary..."

"So," Socrates continued, "you want to tell me something bad about him, but you're not certain it's true. You may still pass the test though, because there's one filter left: the filter of USEFULNESS. Is
what you want to tell me about my friend going to be useful to me?"

"No, not really."

"Well," concluded Socrates, "if what you want to tell me is neither true nor good nor even useful, why tell it to me at all?"

~Author Unknown~

[oasis]

13. Great post. (eom)

[burythehatchet]

37. Thanks for that

I've been having a big problem with gossip among staff. I sent them this anecdote.

[slaveplanet]

41. True, bad ,& useful

sometimes rules the day in these times. Sacred cows make tasty burgers

[Cocoa]

52. tha's excellen

it should be pinned to the top of DU. :toast:

[Military Brat]

58. "Why tell it to me at all?"

Hmm, you suppose the person mistook Socrates for a Republican?

[NoKingGeorge]

6. Added bonus- Easier to identify freepers.

As I read ,I come to identify those who have shall we say 'alternative' motives in posting here.

[madddog]

7. bravo...

I concluded not too long after I got here that most of the people who past here are still in high school, and probably can't even vote yet. I can't think of any other explanation.

You certainly don't see much rational debate of the issues between folks here, even if ONE side of the argument is at least trying.

[goobergunch]

43. As someone who will be too young to vote in 2005

I would just like to say that I find it insulting to have my generation blamed for the negativity on this board.

[Military Brat]

61. An apology to goobergunch, on behalf of DU'ers ...

... who recognize that middle-aged and old farts can be just as obnoxious as those who are still in their teens, if not more so.

While I'm talking at ya, goober, congrats on the excellent work you do in political research and analysis for DU. I, for one, thought you were in your thirties.

:kick:

[Selwynn]

72. Point taken.

This is a ridiculous stereotype. Half the time its the "grown ups" that act like idiots. :)

[meegbear]

8. I agree too ...

I will make peace and will show respect for Dean and his supporters from now on.

I will also announce that my candidate is Clark and I intend to support the candidate we nominate next year.

ABB! ABB! ABB!

[ibegurpard]

11. Oustanding!

:toast:

[meegbear]

16. Rock on!

Now let's get that asshole out of 1600!

[JanMichael]

9. "I hate him" The words of a voluminous Clark supporter about Dean.

That's the most disgusting thing I've had the experiance of reading on this board regarding one of OUR candidates.

I hate him.

I also must say that Clark supporters here at DU are perhaps the most obnoxious in their "support" of their candidate. Hands down.

Too bad, eh?

[Hep]

15. Again

it is NOT productive to single out one candidate's supporters. It's divisive by nature. It contributes to the conflict.

[JanMichael]

19. They do it to themselves.

"I hate him"?

Ridiculous.

Oh and the thread starter singled out the whole damned DU for heavans sake, I just narrowed it down to a more digestable slice.

And, hold the phone, I like Clark.

[DancingBear]

21. Sorry - of course I didn't mean all DU

Hope it wasn't misconstrued in that way. If so, apologies are most definitely in order. Lots of very fine people in here - a couple in Florida come to mind. :)

[JanMichael]

66. Fair enough.

No harm no foul:-)

[Hep]

27. I respect your reaction

to such a horrible thing to say. But the BS du jour lately has been people saying, "This guys supporters are THE WORST", and I reactd to that. Sorry if I pegged you wrong.

[JanMichael]

65. I've been saying it for a LONG time.

There was a period when the Deaniacs were literally burning down the DU barn.

People get a little over-excited about certain things on the web I guess.

[eleny]

20. I find your statements entirely insulting Jan Michael

"I also must say that Clark supporters here at DU are perhaps the most obnoxious in their "support" of their candidate. Hands down.
Too bad, eh?"


You've painted us all with too broad a brush. I hope you rethink your position. I can hardly believe that you've read each and every posting to make a fair conclusion.

If you find Clark supporters obnoxious - then perhaps I might, as a Clark supporter, feel less than motivated to listen to and support the radio program where you participate. Too bad, eh?

[JanMichael]

64. I was thinking of some specific examples.

And those that I refer to are very active since he announced.

But, you're right, not ALL Clark supporters are punking things up so badly. Matter of fact I'm friends with several here.

"If you find Clark supporters obnoxious"

I've explained myself now.

"then perhaps I might, as a Clark supporter, feel less than motivated to listen to and support the radio program where you participate."

That would be rash but hey, it's (still) a free country.

"Too bad, eh?"

It would be none of my business:-)

[eleny]

68. I'm delighted that you reconsidered your position

and put down your broad brush. Thanks.

[bearfartinthewoods]

55. are you equally repulsed by the phrase "I love him"

when applied to a candidate?

people have to understand that some posters aren't rying to change the minds of the devoted. that's useless. but no vote has been cast.
this is every bit as important as what happens in the fall because what we decide now might determine if we win or not. there is still time to make a winning choice and if anyone thinks there are limits to the passions involved, they aren't thinking clearly.

[salin]

77. A variation:

Dean is a piece of shit. (repeated.) But not from a Clark supporter. A couple of the most divisive - are not Clark nor Dean - but supporters of other candidates who seem to relish playing up the tension between the two camps and ramping up the vitriol.

I had seen ugly flaming before. But since this fall I have now seen incessant TAUNTING. THAT fuels a level of distaste that grows to hate (or calling any of the candidates "a piece of shit").

[Booberdawg]

You're right

Which is why a lot of us won't even venture into the candidate threads in GD. And they will bitch and piss and moan for their right to bitch and piss and moan and flame too.

Thanks for sharing that. :hi:

[Melinda]

10. Hey! No need to insult my.....

"LOL"!! Thank you. :hug:

[tom_paine]

12. Lovely sentiment, well articulated

Now if only people would listen...

[absyntheNsugar]

14. Agree and disagree

Some of it is mudslinging for mudslinging's sake - and this is bad. Going after nit picks is a dangerous thing.

HOWEVER....the Repubs are not going to play fair the day after the primary. They will sling mud, dirty diapers, gutter buildup YOU NAME IT. They will find anything they can, and use it to destroy whomever is running on our side. So the armor our candidate wears has to be calloused and without a chink.

Me? I'm a Clark/Dean kinda guy. I like both, Dean a little more, but I'll probably vote Clark come Novemeber simply because I think he has the best chance against Monkey. But Dean has a great chance too. All in all I think we're going into this election with a great hand - the Repubs have a good hand right now too - but I see a Full House in ours.

[oasis]

17. Nicely put, not too long at all.

[skypilot]

18. No, you are not alone.

I was becoming VERY depressed with all the "Why Dean Can"t Win", "The Problem with Clark", "Why Bush Will Win in 2004" threads. My more suspicious side was starting to think that these threads were started by Freepers infiltrating this board and trying to demoralize us. Enough already. What you said really needed to be said.

[CivilRightsNow]

22. I will not sit silently by while this nation makes another mistake.

I will not accept someone as good when all my research points to something else. I will present that research and I will give an opinion based on that research.

I will not just fall in line behind ANY candidate just because they say they are a Democrat.

In that same token, I will not make personal attacks.

But to sit there and suggest, considering what we know about this administration in total.. not just the idiot inhabiting 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.. that people not question other candidates.. to ask that they not be downright passionate if they truly believe, based upon alot of time and energy, that they have a message that must be heard is no better then "you are with us or you are against us".

This is a PIVOTAL election for more reasons then just getting this particular resident out of the whitehouse. And if you dont realize that, you are crafting some very short sighted policy requests with these posts.

[DeepModem Mom]

23. So many have tried, but your words are really impassioned --

I truly hope people listen this time. Besides being destructive, this stuff clogs the board, sometimes preventing other important topics and issues from getting the attention they deserve.

(I'm a Clark supporter, and a Dean admirer; will strongly support whoever's nominated.)

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DancingBear]

25. Looks like the dittoheads found "Democrat Underground"

Say, do you know johnnynelson?

[JNelson6563]

59. who BTW is no relation

to JNelson (aka "Julie")

Just an FYI to avoid possible confusion.

I really appreciate the intent of your thread. :toast:

Julie

[bicentennial_baby]

26. "your kind" ?

Did Rushbo send you?

[DancingBear]

35. No

Griff thought up everything by himself, except for the stuff that Rush told him to say, which is everything except Wesly Clark.

Sincerely,

Griff's mother

[Hep]

28. LOL

Someone turn on the lights. There's something crawling around on the floor.

[DancingBear]

29. Who's "Wesly" Clark?

Dick Clarks brother?

[Bandit]

30. I suspect you will not be here long

I'm sure Frei Republican is much more suited to your taste. They express their hatred with great compassion. It seems to ooze from your post quite easily.

[slinkerwink]

31. ooooh, goody, a live freeper----let's bag him and truss him up

;-) Besides, if you think Dean's so easy to beat, then why are there "dean divers" from every campaign looking in his records in Burlington now?

[edzontar]

Screw you, puke boy!!!!

Go back to your drug-addict daddy.

[Catherine Vincent]

32. "..our president..."

Bush is not my fvcking president!

[bobbyboucher]

33. Talk about parroting

Did you say a single fucking thing that hasn't been blasted out over the faxes, the web, the radio, and Faux News over the past week by all the right-wing propaganda douchebags?

Can't think of anything original?

What, do you guys get a fax/email every morning telling you what to say?

:boring:

[liberalhistorian]

38. Well, looks like I missed

out on all the fun again so I won't be able to join in the joy of freep-bashing! So what did that idiot say, exactly? I caught the gist of it from everyone's responses, but I'm curious as to what it was.

[edzontar]

34. I agree completely

Ya see, I like Dean AND Clark.

I have been very put off by this childish infighting.

Save your fire for Bush and the freepers--like the little turdbrain who is visiting us today.

[KG]

36. oh, a scolding. how cute.

ok, dad, whatever you say. :eyes:

can i have the car keys now? :)

[Forkboy]

40. You better be home by 11!!

:)

[ACK]

39. But circular firing squads are fun...

It is cool to stab each other in the back and fuck the policies of fellow Dems while voting Repuke when it servers your own cause.

It is even more fun if we have a Dem in office. Then we can ignore the fact the congress has gone completely to hell. We can just stick our heads in the sand that way.

Part of the reason so many here demonize the Raygun 80's as an era and get all nostalgic over the Repuke Revolution 90's.

It is ok that Clinton in his first term was stabbed in the back by his fellow Dems. That is ok.

But this was what we get. We have a country divided 50/50 but we don't have the congress or the Presidency or anything.

We are too busy cutting each other up instead of standing together and defending our own. Whether it is Clark and why he left and the Kossovo thing or Dean and his medical deferrment. It does NOT matter.

[goobergunch]

42. Thank you for posting this.

I wholeheartedly agree.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[GOPBasher]

44. I love you!

Seriously, thanks for posting my exact thoughts. Getting Chimp out of the whitehouse is an absolute obsession of mine, and I don't care too much which Democrat does it.

[dionysus]

45. You hit the nail squarely on the head with this one.

Maybe you need to repost the "I knew I would march again" periodically to remind people where our focus should be. Debate is one thng, but whats going on between some of the Clark, Dean, and Kerry supporters is childish and lame. When rethuglicants need go no farther than DU to pick up their talking points... well, you know.

[DancingBear]

48. Wow, you remembered that post?

thank you.

[WillyT]

62. I Remember That Post Too, DancingBear. - It Was Wonderful !!!

And thanks for your thoughts here.

:thumbsup::hippie::thumbsup:

[Robin Hood]

47. Is Skinner on vacation?

n/t

[harper]

49. Excellent post...thanks for trying

But I fear it will fall on deaf ears. I've been at this site for several year even though I seldom post. I no longer recommend DU to any of my friends solely due to the candidate bashing threads in GD. I would like to think that your post might make a difference but I've come to doubt the motivation of half a dozen posters on this board who have very high post counts. If they are not on the RNC's payroll then they are fools for doing its work for free.

[BiggJawn]

50. I don't read candidate threads.

I used to, think that I would learn things about the various contenders. WRONG!
I learn what's supposed to be wrong about the OTHER guys.
OK, I won't vote for Nader (as no Democrat should) and Lieberman has had his 15 minutes of fame weighting down Al Gore.
But when the smoke clears, it WILL be "Anyone but Bush"

You spoke well, Bear!

[AP]

51. I could be totally wrong. However, does anyone get this impression?:

I notice that there are lots of posts today about how the tone at DU has changed for the worse, and now we have the positive-candidate threads (which is great). However, I'm wondering what it is that has changed that has triggered this sentiment.

Personally, I haven't noticed a change in the tone or the kinds of things that have been posted. For months, GD has been more of a candidacy-advocacy forum than anything else. Since that's what's getting talked about in the world, I have no problem with that.

One thing that has changed, I think -- and this is totally anecdotal -- is that, in the past, there would be a candidate-puffery post, and there'd only be one or two posters posting maybe 10% of the comments which were critical. The other 90% would be posts defending the puffery. Just yesterday or the day before, I noticed in one case -- a Dean puffery thread -- there were ten posts by ten different people criticizing it as puffery before some posted a defense of the puffery. And I've noticed that something similar has happened in a couple other threads. Now a puffery thread will sometimes go 50:50, support to criticism. E.g., consider the threads about Dean's governor's records, and his position on middle class taxes -- we definitely had those debates in the past, so it isn't the subject matter that is changing. What has changed is thate when we had those debates in the past, about 90% of the posts were pro-Dean. Now, it's 50:50.

In other words, it's getting very hard to puff without getting into a big debate.

An only now do we have all these complaints about the tone starting to get traction, and becoming more vociferous.

It sort of reminds me of CSPAN after the 2000 elections. There old rules were that callers were broken up by region. After 2000 they got so many calls from people criticizing Republicans that they had to break up the lines by political party so that the right wing would be guaranteed at least 50 percent of the time criticizing Democrats, way out of proportion to their representation among CSPAN viewers. They didn't like the tone of the discussion, so they changed the rules to get a different tone.

So, I just think it's interesting that people now are suddenly very vocal about the improriety of the level of pro and anti-candidate rhetoric now that the tone of the discussion is changing, but not the subject matter.

I could be totally wrong about this.

[CivilRightsNow]

53. ;)

n/t

[DancingBear]

54. Interesting slant, AP

I had not noticed that, but I will look at this aspect from now on to see what the ratio is. My concern was not so much the puffery component (this is politics, after all, and puffery is almost as important as fund-raising :) ) - rather it was (and continues to be) the questionable attacks on both candidates and (in some cases) posters, which masquerade as points of debate.

[AP]

56. Yeah. Nobody here reads every post in every thread (I hope).

And your perception is formed by what you know -- what you chose to read.

I'm immediately drawn to the puffery threads, and like to throw my two cents in when I see puffery.

I'm not so interested in attack threads, and usually don't even read them. So, this is my perception.

If there has been an increase in attack threads, and the tone in those threads, I wouldn't even notice. Eg, everyone's talking about the escalation of the dean v clark fight. Honestly, I haven't even noticed it, becaue I guess I'm not reading those threads (or those posts in the threads I read).

As I said, what I've noticed is that the puffery threads, or the threads on issues which attract puffery ("Didn't Dean do great by saying "I'll show you mine if you show me yours?...He's so eloquent!") have often been dominated by people who take appart the puffery. That's the biggest change I've noticed in the last few weeks.

[mdmc]

57. not sure why I'm such a jerk on line

but I have a new image next to my name, and now promise to become a kinder, gentler, poster.

[welshTerrier2]

60. it makes DU far less effective than it could be

Well, you've certainly expressed the sentiment of what I believe is a majority of DU'ers ... too many of the candidate threads do nothing to further OUR cause ... "every other candidate is wrong except the one I'm supporting ... " ... isn't it just possible that all the candidates bring ideas that should be elements of our national strategy and our national platform ???

the big problem i have with DU is, that in spite of your excellent words, we seem powerless to change this immature climate ... i, for one, would love to see candidate threads allowed only in the politics and campaigns forums ... if the thread focussed on an idea promoted by a candidate, rather than on the "campaign ra ra", that would be allowed in GD ... i'm really sick of all the pointless "my guy's great and your guy's a jerk" threads ...

this is a sad business for DU ... it's a sad business waiting for a resolution that seems to not be in the making ... and that's too bad ...

[AlFrankenFan]

63. Agreed

We shouldn't fight, but unite :)

[DancingBear]

67. since it looks like some folks still don't get it

:kick:

[eileen_d]

70. it's the primaries - shit happens

Shit's not going to stop happening til the primaries are over.

(cue Steve Hornsby and the Range) That's just the waaaay it is...

[DS1]

69. He picked up a turkey

!

[sexybomber]

Amen. (nt)

[Kanola]

71. Great post

I have been frustrated by the flamebait threads also. It is only hurting us Dem. I have too many people on ignore. That is sad.

[Selwynn]

73. Question: do you think your post will change anything?

Or do you think that this is just how it goes before an election for which we all feel so intensely about?

Don't get me wrong you're 185% right, but I think we may just have to deal with high emotions and a lot of bad blood until the nomination at least, if not the election 2004 itself.

[DancingBear]

74. If I say "I hope so", am I waffling?

I really don't know. My political feelings run strong, and there certainly are times when I see things professed on this board that I feel are part and parcel of a losing strategy. I'll ask myself "what is the best way to engage in conversation on this topic?", and the answer usually doesn't begin with "I know - call someone a #4%*_@". I used to be really hot-heated as a kid (thank you, hockey), and I can still ramp it up a notch or two when need be (thank you, Virginia drivers), but it just seems rather civilized not to disparage someone's beliefs (racist, homophobic, etc. beliefs excluded, of course) just to make a few brownie points with the choir.

One of my few remaining vestiges of idealism, perhaps?

[Dr Fate]

75. That is why I avoid DEM bashing as well- thanx. n/t

...

[Kanary]

76. How D.U. has changed me

For as long as I can remember, I've been a "coalition" type person. If I had an idea, I'd propose it in a way that let people know I was open to their input. I always made a point of listening to what people were feeling and thinking when they would describe an issue to me. I would listen when people were trying to talk about something they didn't like, or even a criticism of me.

After just a short time on D.U., and finding that one has to come here with armor on or suffer the slings and arrows, I find myself losing the desire and even ability to listen. I find myself seeing someone looking cross-eyed at me, and get my dukes up, ready to have it out. I guess part of that is good...... I've learned more how to dish it out and not just take it, and how to stand up for myself possibly better than I have before.

But, I can tell you, I don't feel good about it. I have the sinking feeling this is more and more what the world is coming to, and it doesn't make me want to get up in the morning.

I'm not an introvert.... unfortunately, I need people. But I'm wanting more and more to find some island with kindhearted and caring people to live out my days with.

I don't like at all what this is doing to me.

Kanary

[Iverson]

78. Oh no, it isn't that. THIS is what's happening.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=253637#253656

The acrimony between candidates pales by comparison.

[Terwilliger]

79. We have a fight with a bunch of children

We have to adopt the ways of the opposition to effectively counter it