Dean vs Clark : Who is the most inspiring?

[kentuck]

Both are excellent. And most likely it is in the eye of the beholder. And both are inspiing in a different way, I think. Any opinions?

[Selwynn]

1. For me, Clark's style moves me far more

Deans style is a complete turn off to a guy like me.

[webkev]

181. Clark is more motivational - definetly tells it like it is (nt)

[Hep]

2. I don't know how to measure inspiration

So I say both equally.

[chimpymustgo]

3. Clark inspires me. Dean gives me the creeps.

The two can't be compared.

[CityZen-X]

4. Dean/Clark 2004

or Clark/Dean 2004 what are the alternatives?

[Minstrel Boy]

41. For me, it's vice versa.

"The two can't be compared."

I'll agree with that.

[creativelcro]

55. me too. clark gives me the creeps with all that military crap

[ginchinchili]

132. Military Crap?

"All the military crap" is what will make the difference between victory or defeat come next Nov. "All that military crap" will determine our standing in the world. "All that military crap" is what keeps you free to express your disrespectful opinions without being shot. We are at war and America will not elect someone whose campaign motto is peace,love,dove. Sorry, but it's true.

[CalebHayes]

141. They will make Dean look like a draft doger!!!

Clark is the man!

[coralrf]

162. Dean is a draft dodger..

A first degree X-Ray carrying draft dodger. His record in that arena is worse than Bush's. Both are cowards that wanted someone else to take their place in Vietnam but Bush did go into the bullshit guard. Dean just packed his X-Rays into a military physical and then went skiing.

If Dean runs its over. They will rip the guy up as Bush at least has a military record, albeit a shitty one but Dean..X-Ray Dean has nothing but a big yellow stripe.

Given the huge importence national defense will play in this election how in the hell is Dean going to face the nation? Sure one might say Bush is worse but Dean will be unknown and don’t think for a moment Bush’s folks wont manipulate that.

We may even see an elegant slap in the Democrats face issued by Rove. A campaign thread by the Bushies that follows a “well you voted for me when I had no track record and got fucked: what makes you think Dean won’t do it. Think of the satisfaction it would give them.

IN any case let us start to take a very careful look at what the Republicans want. Rove has said he wants Dean as he is confident he can annihilate him. I think we will begin to see a much more vicious tone in the GOP/RNC/Rove hostility to Kerry, Clark and whoever else is alive in about March. Not Dean. They will attempt to push the Democrats into selecting Dean much as Grey did GOP with Simon last year. If successful they will then start an all out attack on Dean’s record and under the table support for Nader. Don’t think they can pull it off? Look once more at the Cleland/Chambliss outrage and think again. They can get away with this crap.

[Hep]

203. Bzzzzzt, wrong as usual

He showed up for the draft.

Next meme.

Buddy, you feel free to let the republicans control what you think. I suspect they picked your lock a while ago. I'm going to go by MY brain. Thanks anyway.

[LeahMira]

205. Dean did not "dodge" service

He had a legitimate reason to be excused from service. Whether you think it was legitimate or not is not relevant. The draft board decided it was legitimate. Take your problem up with them.

At the time, there were young men who wanted to enlist but were excused for medical reasons. Are they also draft dodgers?

Dean did what he was supposed to do. He reported as instructed and showed them his X-rays and medical information. The draft board dismissed him. That's not draft dodging.

I would expect that a good doctor would have found the problem during a physical exam anyhow. Or would you rather Dean had gone to war and then been unable to defend himself and maybe become a burden on his fellow soldiers in a battle?

When there's a draft, the government has the entire population of young men to choose from. They can afford to be selective about which ones they take. They took the men in top shape. Again, the military set the standards, not Mr. Dean.

[Closer]

176. Just wondering

why are there soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many newbie Clarkettes? Each as wiseassed and thin-skinned as the next.

Just wondering.


And I must add, any observer can look at the comments made here and see the difference in quality of the Clarkettes vs the Dean supporters. It's amazing the difference. Just amazing.

[LeahMira]

204. Military crap is right!

"All that military crap" will determine our standing in the world.

Just as it's doing now? All that military crap in Iraq has put our "standing in the world" as far in the toilet as it's ever been in our history.

"All that military crap" is what keeps you free to express your disrespectful opinions without being shot.

Gee, some of us would be expressing our "disrespectful opinions" no matter what the consequences. Remember: "Give me liberty or give me death."

All the military... and all the Patriot Acts... in the world aren't going to stop people from expressing "disrespectful opinions." Deal with it.

We are at war and America will not elect someone whose campaign motto is peace,love,dove. Sorry, but it's true.

No, YOU won't vote for someone who wants peace. Sorry, but what's true is that many folks will vote for that.

[adadem]

191. Totally agree

Dean reminds me of a playgound bully.

[FrenchieCat]

5. Clark shines and makes you

feel like he's in charge. A true leader that you can feel safe with.

Dean makes me feel like he has this beef with just about anybody that doesn't support him....

and he lies about the other candidates, over and over again.

That's like him having his pal Rob Reiner trash Clark about Clark's Flag stance...when both Dean and Reiner know that Dean signed a anti consecration law in Vermont in May of 2001....

So dishonesty appears to by his MO!

[dsc]

17. talk about dishonesty

he did no such thing. He did support, and he might have signed, a proclamation advocating a national law. But he didn't sign a Vermont law to that effect. Next time you chose to lecture us about honesty try being honest.

[Cat M.]

86. Not much difference.

Dean pushed for and signed, as Governor of Vermont, a proclamation passed by the legislature for national protection against desecration of the flag.

So regardless of how Frenchie presented it, her point is still valid. Clark said he'd support a law to prevent descration of the flag; Dean secured and signed a statement saying the same thing.

So he should be calling off his attack dog Rob Reiner on that issue.

[FrenchieCat]

Dean signed the law....

in May of 2001.....I am not making this up....Since you don't know much about your candidate, here you go:
Dean's cute flag flap
http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2003/11/14/friday/?ref=http://images.salon.com/src/ads/aol/aol_splash2.htm
Joe Conason's Journal: Nov 14, 2003
Several readers distressed by Wesley Clark's remarks supporting the flag desecration amendment wrote in to declare that they had dropped their support of the retired general in favor of Howard Dean. But others pointed out what I didn't know about Dean's own record on this issue. Two years ago, as governor of Vermont, he brokered a legislative resolution that urged Congress to "take whatever legislative action it deems necessary and appropriate to honor and safeguard the United States Flag." While a bit vague, that sounded much like an endorsement of the Constitutional amendment.

Around that time, Dean rather pompously declared that politicians should declare their positions on the flag issue before voters went to the polls in 2002. That requirement didn't apply to Dean himself, as he "coyly" told the Rutland Herald, because he wasn't on the ballot that year. So now that he is running for president, the candidate who prides himself in speaking bluntly should explain the limits of his support for the First Amendment -- in plain English.
<8:22 a.m. PST, Nov. 14, 2003>
--------------------------
http://rutlandherald.com/hdean/38411

In the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks Dean said he believed the Legislature would want to act on the question and suggested that it would be important for voters in the upcoming elections to know where their candidates stood.

“I do think the Legislature should pass a resolution,” he said. “I think the public is going to want to know where people are standing in the 2002 election.”

But Dean is not apparently holding himself to that standard. He refused to reveal his position on amending the U.S. Constitution banning flag desecration, noting coyly that he would not be a candidate in 2002. He may, however, be a candidate in 2004, if he decides to run for president.

“First of all, I’m sure I’m on record on that at some point in last 10 years,” he said. “Second of all, when you’re trying to engineer a behind-the-scenes compromise it’s best not to be public about what that is.” (a lot of pandering, without any substance)
------------------------------
http://www.leg.state.vt.us/docs/2002/journal/SJ010116.htm
Journal of the Vermont Senate

Joint Resolution Referred

J.R.S. 9.

Joint Senate resolution of the following title was offered, read the first time and is as follows:

By Senators Campbell, Ankeney, Bartlett, Bloomer, Chard, Condos, Cummings, Gossens, Kittell, Leddy, Lyons, McCormack, Munt, Rivers, Sears and Shumlin,

J.R.S. 9. Joint resolution in opposition to the desecration of the United States Flag.

Whereas, the flag of the United States is one of the greatest symbols of our nation, and

Whereas, this symbol represents the defining principles of our country, and

Whereas, these ideals also include the democratic principles of individual freedom enumerated and protected by the United States Constitution, especially by those amendments known collectively as the Bill of Rights, and

Whereas, Americans have placed their lives in harm’s way and, in hundreds of thousands of cases, have sacrificed their lives defending these principles, and

Whereas, their willingness to sacrifice their lives in defense of these cherished principles demonstrates one of the purest and most commendable forms of patriotism, and

Whereas, these patriots have focused on the flag as the ultimate symbol for which they and their families have sacrificed, and

Whereas, the flag serves important ceremonial functions at public gatherings, funerals, celebrations of patriotic holidays, parades and countless other gatherings, and

Whereas, respect for the flag and the various protocols attendant thereto (such as proper display, proper folding, saluting, et cetera) serves as the first introduction, for many young Americans, to the concept of patriotism, and

Whereas, therefore, we, the American people, accord our flag a unique position of respect, love and admiration, and recognize the importance of providing dignity and honor to this symbol, now therefore be it

RESOLVED BY THE SENATE AND HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES:

That the General Assembly expresses its respect, love and admiration for our United States Flag, and be it further

RESOLVED: That the General Assembly expresses its condemnation of all acts of flag desecration, and similar displays of disrespect for the United States Flag, and be it further

RESOLVED: That the General Assembly respectfully urges the Congress of the United States to take whatever legislative action it deems necessary and appropriate to honor and safeguard the United States Flag, and be it further

RESOLVED: That the Secretary of State transmit copies of this resolution to the Speaker of the United States House of Representatives, the President of the United States Senate and all members of the Vermont Congressional delegation.

Thereupon, the President, in his discretion, treated the joint resolution as a bill and referred it to the Committee on Judiciary.

Joint Resolution Adopted in Concurrence

J.R.H. 15.
-----------------
Resolution was signed by Howard Dean, May 2001

[Justice]

131. Resolution Not A Law

But I agree with you completely. For Dean to have signed that resolution and then allow his very prominent supporter to slam Clark for supporting the same thing - well, very very disappointing. It makes Dean look bad.

As a lawyer, I never supported an amendment banning burning the flag on free speech grounds. My view changed when I saw the republicans hijack my flag. I know have a sense of how veterans and others felt when people burned the flag.

My feeling is the flag is our collective symbol - it ought not to be burned or used by ANY group for any purpose other than as a positive symbol of America. People can dissent and disagree, but the flag should be left out of it.

[FrenchieCat]

142. Problem is Dean supporters don't know

that Dean is backstabbing Clark....so they believe Dean. When Dean talks about Clark advising Swett to support the Resolution...so he puts Clark in the other column of having supported the war or something like that, Dean is only doing it so he can be in the anti war column by himself. He is a politician that lies to get ahead. And his supporters don't mind it one bit. They are so bent on winning, they do not care about integrity. Only the integrity of others, but not of their own. That is scary IMO!

But they won't see it until it's too late. If a Dean person even uses the word integrity, I will definitely let them have it. I guess we should just accept Bush's lies too...since he does if for political reasons.

That's the problem with this kind of reasoning. I don't want to be on a team that cheats to win. That's what Bush did. Why would I want to support that kind of thinking. Crazy and scary!

[dsc]

173. No the problem is that some people (such as you)

don't know the difference between a resolution and a law and then blame others when they are called on their ignorance. I was accurate, and it should be noted completely accurate, in my post. I said that Dean may have or may have not signed a resolution asking the feds to pass a law banning burning the flag. I wasn't sure if he signed it due to not knowing if it was a concurrent or a joint resolution. The first one isn't signed the second is. I did say he supported it. You, inaccurately, claimed he signed a law. You were inaccurate. You, not I, need to bone up on candidates and for that matter the difference between laws and resolutions. It isn't my fault you don't know what you are talking about and then blame others.

[Donna Zen]

186. Actually I think they do know it.

Every back sliding position that Dean has taken is brushed away. The bs making its way through congress is a resolution.

WTF! They are all trying to run away from being flag burners by the frigging repubs. who just love it as a wedge issue. But Dean signing a resolution that basically says: "whatever law you want I will back" and then lying about his position is just typical.

[dsc]

171. That is not a law

and next time you call me ignorant know what you are talking about. That is a resolution not a law. Laws have the force of law. You break them you go to jail or you get fined. Resolutions don't. They asked the feds to do something. That isn't a law. Don't call me ignorant unless you actually know what you are talking about in the future.

[Justice]

189. Come On

yes it is a resolution, not a law. You were correct, and frankly I am a Clark supporter - but I supported you in pointing out you were correct.

However, Dean supported the resolution regarding the flag -- which makes his very prominent supporter's current criticism of Clark's position a little awkward to say the least.

[dsc]

192. I didn't say it wasn't

but I am sick to death of that poster calling Dean supporters ignorant when he or she continually has no clue what he or she is talking about. The simple fact is that poster was wrong and I was right and instead of admitting that he or she called me ignorant and that is a pattern with that poster.

[Justice]

194. You Were Both Right and Both Wrong !!!!!!

That is my point - and neither of you is big enough to admit it.

You were right - resolution not law

He/She was right - Dean formally supported protecting flag and now is letting a prominent supporter criticize Clark for doing the same thing.

[dsc]

196. Nowhere did I say Dean didn't supprot protecting the flag

Please site where I did. I did say, correctly, that Dean didn't sign a law. I did say, correctly, that he may have signed a resolution but I didn't know for sure. I did say he supported it, again correctly. I did not say Dean didn't support it nor did I imply he didn't. So please point out my error.

BTW here are my exact words.

He did support, and he might have signed, a proclamation advocating a national law. But he didn't sign a Vermont law to that effect. Next time you chose to lecture us about honesty try being honest.

Again, please point out where I claimed that he didn't support protecting the flag.

[Justice]

201. Thanks For Acknowledging Dean Supports Protecting the Flag

You certainly made a big fuss about "dishonesty" over the form -- when a post said law and not resolution. What really matters is the substance -- which you agree - the poster was very honest about.

[Gloria]

6. Clark for me. It's the style....I like to be feel the inspiration well up

inside. When I get pounded with "You have the power" about 50 times I get a little nervous as the crowd goes nuts because I've never liked large group hysteria coming at me.

I just don't feel comfortable with Dean. I don't think his style is going to wear all that well over the long haul. If he ever does tone it down to try to present a "presidential" demeanor, will his followers feel let down?

After the bullshit of the last few years, I'm ready for the "quiet courage" approach, not more of the hammer approach...

ON EDIT....Dean's speech. He just seems to stay one-dimensional to me. I see anger and not much else. With Clark I see anger, indignation, but also a wide vision. Dean seems to be only half a loaf; Clark is the whole package. That's my gut feeling.

Emotionally, Dean doesn't take me much beyond Bush....Pugnacious style, but no real inspiration to feel better...it's bad for the nervous system.

[MIMStigator]

7. Dean inspired me for a few days. Now he bores the hell outta me. n/t

nt

[Jerseycoa]

155. I just wish

I hadn't already sent him money before he started boring the hell out of me.

[slinkerwink]

8. it's definitely Dean!!!

Clark's ok.

[absyntheNsugar]

9. Dean has more "charisma"

but Clark makes me feel better. Not sure who I would say is more inspiring - one makes me want to storm the gates of the capital (Dean) and the other makes me feel like I can be proud of our Country again (Clark.)

I guess the question is:

What's better for the country come 2004: Anger or Comfort?

[Gloria]

13. Good point, Anger or Comfort????

I think Clark mixes in quite a bit of heartfelt anger but balances it very well with a very distinguished demeanor. It's a good combination...firm but tempered. Military, but humane.

[mandyky]

10. Dean, far and above

With Clark, I feel he is trying to motivate with the same fear-mongering shrub and crew use.

[moz4prez]

16. LOL, what's better,

fear-mongering or mob-rallying?

[mandyky]

22. Unions and supporters are mobs?

OK, if you say so, I'll choose mob rallying. I am sick of shrub making people afraid and I am against a candidate who may or may not be a Democrat trying to counter with the same BS.

[moz4prez]

32. name an instance in which Clark was "fear-mongering"

text

[moz4prez]

66. OK, then

[mandyky]

76. As soon as I find a transcript

I'll post what was fear-mongering - I can't remember word for word, but Clark gives the same reasoning Idiot Boy shrrub gives, in other words fills people with fear and says he's the answer.

Military power alone won't win the war on terror, and whether it is a former general or a chickenhawk who says it will, is sadly mistaken. And furthermore, I am tired of having my fear buttons pushed. I want a candidate who fills me with hope, which Dean does!

[Justice]

83. Not Military Power - Its Called Foreign Policy

Edited to Add:

Actually, on foreign policy, Dean said essentially the same thing that Clark says - we won't go to war needlessly, we will tell the truth about reasons for war if we have to go, we will talk with other countries, we need a bilateral dialogue with N. Korea and we won't let someone hijack our flag, or serve fake turkey to our troops.

Dean sounded alot like Clark - so golly, he must agree with Clark.

[_NorCal_D_]

31. Fear-mongering?

Personally I’ve never seen an instance where Clark utilizes fear-mongering. Could you give me an example? :shrug:

[Eloriel]

64. I'll give you one

He was being interviewed by ... who ws it last Sunday? .... and he made a big (and demagogic) appeal purely and only on the basis that in these times we need a military man to lead us.

Bullshit. I reject that notion with every fiber of my being. More, I am insulted and offended by it.

Further, he refused to say, when asked directly (ah, it was Blitzer i now remember) several times, whether or not he thought Dean was qualified to be President. This, of course, directly contradicts what I thought I'd heard him magnanimously say, as Deanhas said, that anyone on this stage would do better than Bush.

So, in Clark's extremely limited view, only a military man -- like him, of course -- is qualified to be President.

:puke:

Eloriel

[Justice]

79. Links to Direct Quotes Please????

too funny. always one to require specifics, but also to make sweeping slams against others. Very self righteous.

I haven't seen Dean make statements about Clark's fitness for president since Clark entered the campaign. Blitzer was just looking to divide us -- ahhh, but he needn't worry - we are doing a good job all on our own.

[_NorCal_D_]

84. I see.

If Clark actually said that, I don't necessarily agree with him. At the same time I don't think that this could be construed as fear-mongering.

What you perceive as a jingoistic, blustering display, was probably nothing more than Clark touting his foreign policy experience. :shrug: B-)

[moz4prez]

120. Wolf Blitzer?

If I recall correctly, he said "If you want a lawyer, elect a lawyer. If you want a doctor, elect a doctor. If you want a leader, then I have proven leadership" or something?

I don't think he's ever made pleas for support on being a military man, though he has tried to earn trust by emphasizing his past as a solider. I think he's only gone so far as to say that in these times Americans need someone with extensive foreign policy experience. Which isn't very demagogic.

But until we have quotations I'll assume Clark was playing on the sucker contingent's fears of disaster and isolation because Clark is a unrepentant product of the MIC, after all!

Also, while he may have stated that all of the Dem candidates would be better than Bush, that wasn't an implication that Bush himself was qualified to be president.

[JNelson6563]

11. Dean by a mile

He rocks!

Julie

[FrenchieCat]

12. Plus I don't like when Dean lies about

Being the only candidate that was against the war......he keeps forgetting what really happened....revisionist!

On January 31, Dean told Ron Brownstein of the Los Angeles Times that "if Bush presents what he considered to be persuasive evidence that Iraq still had weapons of mass destruction, he would support military action, even without U.N. authorization.

And then on Feb. 20, Dean told Salon.com that "if the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.

Then a day later, he told the Associated Press that he would not support sending U.S. troops to Iraq unless the United Nations specifically approves the move and backs it with action of its own. "They have to send troops," he said.

Four days later on PBS's News Hour with Jim Lehrer, Dean said United Nations authorization was a prerequisite for war. "We need to respect the legal rights that are involved here," Dean said. "Unless they are an imminent threat, we do not have a legal right, in my view, to attack them."

Then on June 22 2003: Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean, another Democratic contender, followed Mr. Kerry's lead yesterday with a similar accusation on NBC's "Meet the Press."
"We were misled," Mr. Dean said. "The question is, did the president do that on purpose or was he misled by his own intelligence people?"

[Hep]

20. He said MOST inspiring

I think he was trying to get people to say positive things about their guy.

Never mind.

[Justice]

134. Honesty is Element of Inspiration

In fairness, inspiration is about looking up to someone - and I want to look up to someone who is honest, so calling into question someone's honesty today in their speech is appropriate.

Now, that bit of candor goes both ways. I've read your threads and know you have mighty strong feeling about his honesty.

[Hep]

207. Cut the crap

Frenchie used this thread as an excuse to post what, FIVE posts critical of dean? Did she even bother reading the subject line of the thread? Unbelievable how some people can't focus on the topic, instead, just going about business as usual.

[Scott Lee]

111. I guess you didn't read the top of the thread.

Try it again. He was asking what you found most inspiring about Dean and Clark - he wasn't asking for yet another shot of bitter drivel against Dean. Pay attention.

[Marines for Clark]

14. Clark is about vision and leadership and Dean is about hate and trashing

Clark is about vision and leadership and Dean is about hate and trashing everybody

[laruemtt]

15. Clark does me

and he can do me anytime (sorry - i'll stop soon)

[chaska]

27. Watched both just now.

I was very impressed with Dean. I kept thinking what a great vp he'd make. And no, I'm not trying to stir up trouble. The veep is the bulldog roll. Clark appeals to the mind and to one's nobler instincts. Dean is a red meat speaker who has clearly studied preachers. I'm suspicious of that sort of appeal. People can get carried away and, as a result, make bad decisions.

I almost hate to admit it, but they would make a good team, at least from a stylistic point of view. But Dean on top is a disaster waiting to happen.

[FrenchieCat]

18. and I don't like it when

Dean LIES......about Clark...over and over again....trying to make his own self look good. Like he supported Lugar amemdment.....and this is what Clark was saying!

a point for himself? Clark didn't support the resolution ANYMORE than DEAN did under the LUGAR amendment......


http://www4.fosters.com/election_2002/oct/09/us_2cong_1009a.asp

Retired Gen. Clark supports Swett, raises concerns about Iraq policy
By STEPHEN FROTHINGHAM,Associated Press Writer
MANCHESTER, N.H. (AP) — Retired U.S. Army Gen. Wesley Clark said Wednesday he supports a congressional resolution that would give President Bush authority to use military force against Iraq, although he has reservations about the country's move toward war.
----------------------
The general said he had no doubt Iraq posed a threat, but questioned whether it was immediate and said the debate about a response has been conducted backward.
"Normally in a debate, you start with a problem and consider possible solutions. Instead, the president has presented us with a solution before the problem has been fully articulated," he said.
"As far as the information we have now shows, there are no nuclear warheads on missiles pointed to America," he said. "You can't wait 10 years to act, but there is time on our side."
He said al-Qaida remains the largest terrorist threat against the United States, and the connection ----between al-Qaida and Iraq is unclear.
------------------------
After endorsing Swett in Nashua, he visited Manchester West High School and reassured history students that the threat of terrorism should be kept in perspective.
-----------------------
He said he shares the concerns he hears from many Americans about whether the country should act against Iraq without United Nations support and about how the United States will deal with Iraq after a successful invasion.
He also met in Portsmouth with the Democratic nominee in the 1st Congressional District, state Sen. Martha Fuller Clark.
A spokesman for Clark said the two were meeting to discuss foreign policy.

[Field Of Dreams]

19. Clark

n/t

[Jack_Dawson]

152. Clark Clark Clark Clark Clark

Is so the man. Don't even get me started.

[carpediem]

170. Clark for me too.

n/t

[_NorCal_D_]

21. Clark

I don't find Dean's tired old slogans inspiring in the slightest. B-)

[FrenchieCat]

23. Dean had not problem with

Clark's advise to Dean for all of those months....now Dean lies to get ahead....they lie in your face, all the time they want to take your place...and they call them backstabbers.....

http://query.nytimes.com/search/restricted/article?res=F20815FA385F0C728DDDA00894DB404482

September 11, 2003, Thursday
NATIONAL DESK
Dean Asks General to Join Him in Primaries, Aides Say

By JODI WILGOREN (NYT) 520 words
BURLINGTON, Vt., Sept. 10 -- After months of friendly discussions about national security and other issues, Howard Dean, the former governor of Vermont, asked Gen. Wesley K. Clark to join his presidential campaign in some capacity if General Clark decided against making the run himself, aides for both men said tonight.
''The governor's told him repeatedly that he should run if he wants,'' Joe Trippi, Dr. Dean's campaign manager, said at the campaign headquarters here. ''I'm sure that along the way the governor's made clear that we want General Clark's support if he decides not to run for president. I assume every other candidate has done the same thing.''


The meeting on Saturday in Los Angeles was first reported tonight by The Washington Post. Mr. Trippi and an aide to General Clark said that they were unsure whether the two men had discussed the vice presidency as The Post reported but that Dr. Dean had not tried to persuade General Clark not to join the fray.

[jumptheshadow]

24. Clark's the man

We are at such a crucial junction in our history. I hope and pray that Clark wins the nomination because I firmly believe he would be a better candidate and a better president.

I just believe we have to look beyond party and beyond ego and elect the most effective, competent person to this job. Clark is the one. He's the guy who will heal rather than divide. He's the guy who will give us reasoned, logical answers to complex problems. He's the man who has the background that will give him the flexibility to win over swing voters and to govern the diverse country that is America.

I will support Dean if he's nominated. But the guy just leaves me cold. He seems like just another politician to me. I worked for, and voted for, both McGovern and Carter. I know how thrilling it feels to be part of a grassroots movement. While I admire the mechanics and strategy of the Dean campaign, and the passion of his supporters, I don't think he'll thrive in the General Election environment. And he's just not the right man for the job. We don't need to replace one self-absorbed, negative and privileged Yalie with another. We really need a change in this country.

On edit: We also don't need another secretive man in the White House at this point in our history. I don't like the sealing of the campaign records one bit.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

25. Clark, by far.

But thats just my worthless opinion!

[Pastiche423]

26. Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean

Dean inspires hope

clark inspires fear - wrap that flag around youself, boy!

[Renew Deal]

30. Dean inspires me to hope

that we don't lose the GE. He is disingenuous and divisive.

[_NorCal_D_]

34. Do not question the infallible one!

Stop that criticism and drink your Kool-Aid! It's my special blend. B-)

[xultar]

43. There woulda been a time when I thought that was rude but after

some of the comments on the FL threads today...

You hit it right on the money...

Bwahhhhhhaaaaa!

[_NorCal_D_]

47. I'm certainly not trying to be rude.

I'm just trying to put a little comedy in this 'serious' thread. B-) :bounce:

LOL, there was probably a time when even Dean supporters could find it funny! B-) :shrug:

[Scott Lee]

115. Aint it funny that some Clarkies cant offer a positive comment

even when presented with a thread to do so - for their OWN guy?

Ponderous. Just ponderous.

[Justice]

161. Some Dean Supporters Have The Same Affliction

[Scott Lee]

213. Really? Name them with examples, please.

[ibegurpard]

39. Hey do you suppose the General would approve of you calling

Dean a psycho? Do you think that he would find that helpful to his campaign? Perhaps you need to go back to the Clark blog and study up on their talking points.

[FrenchieCat]

44. Well since Dean

Trashes Clark every time he has a chance to make himself look better...

I don't really care what Clark thinks......it's you that should be wondering why Dean lies about Clark....so that he say...I'm the one that has the best foreign policy.

Dean is a backstabber!

[Renew Deal]

116. Do you suppose Dean would approve of me calling

other candidates Bush lite? Did you see his speech. His head nearly exploded.

[jumptheshadow]

37. The Greek chorus again

Over the years, I have learned to harbor a healthy distrust of people who see the world in black and white terms.

[Pastiche423]

46. Please

describe what in my post was black/white.

You can't because there isn't.

[kentuck]

38. I see his message about the flag differently...

I hear him say that the flag does not just belong to the Repubs, as if Democrats are not worthy of if, but it belongs to all. It is an attempt to pre-empt the Repubs claim for sole ownership of patriotism and he thinks they need to be called on it. I agree with him on that issue.

[Pastiche423]

51. W/his background

I see it as a kinder, gentler nationalism.

[kentuck]

53. I understand that concern...

And that was one of my initial concerns about Clark...but since I have heard him speak on different issues, I think he believes in civilian control of the military.

[Pastiche423]

98. While I think he believes

in military control of civilians.

It horrifies me to hear him speak in military analogies. But then, that is all he's known.

W/all of the whistle ass et al crap we, as a nation, have gone through in the last three years, anything "military" sickens and frightens me.

I want real change! I don't want a president that can out military whistle ass. I want dipolmacy. I want to mend our relationship w/the world community.

The 1st clark ad I saw was all "the general", RED, WHITE and BLUE! USA! USA! USA!

Sorry, I can get all of that shit from the other side of the aisle.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

103. We're Going To Take The Flag Back....

It reminds me of the line from Bono introducing their version of Helter Skelter on the Shake, Rattle, and Roll CD...

"Here's a song Charles Manson stole from the Beatles and we're going to take it back..."

I love my country as much as * , Tom DeLay, Dick Cheney and their reactionary fellow travelers...

[Justice]

139. ChickenHawk On Other Side of The Aisle; Clark= Leadership

Actually Clark is much more reluctant to go to war than any republican. His words also show he is much more so than Dean.

Clark says won't go only as a last resort - he emphasizes this repeatedly and expands upon it - and virtually gives you his oath.

Dean says he won't go unless he tells you the truth about going.

Clark also highlights his career to highlight his leadership - just as Dean hightlights his career to highlight his leadership.

[Pastiche423]

148. clark leadership of what?

The military!

He has none, nada, zip, zilch experience of civilain leadership.

He has none, nada, zip, zilch experience of working for or backing the Democratic Party.

He has done nothing to give me faith in him. Acutally, he has done the opposite.

Did not become a democrat until October 17, 2003
Supported and praised the SOA
After being fired from the military, he worked for Stephens Corp
He lobbied for Acxiom, to give the Defense greater invasion of our privacy
He praised whistle ass et al as recent as May 2003
He likes and would like to work w/PNACers again
He voted for Nixon, Reagan - Twice!, and poppy
He is for de-regualtion
He is in favor of amending our 1st Amendment
He is in favor of sending our s/w to India
He likes to wrap himself in the flag, ala the RW (playing to their rules)
He dropped DU and cluster bombs on innocent men, women and children
He was for IWR (if the repugs would have let him execute the invasion his way), he was against IWR
“I would have been a Republican,” Clark told them, “if Karl Rove had returned my phone calls.”


I have been a Democrat for thirty one years, and General "Already the scent of victory is in the air" Clark is not even close to being a Democrat. He is status quo w/a "d" in front of his name.

[Code_Name_D]

188. Well said.

Very well said.

[Justice]

195. Clark is A Leader of People

I get that you don't agree, but lots of Democrats do agree and believe in Wes Clark.

You continue to post mispresentations and outright lies about Clark. The fact that you continue to do so after people correct you tells me you are not interested in real discussion, real debate or about the party.

You express yourself well, and have good things to say about Dean, which I read. But you diminish your own credibility and to some extent Dean by your behavior.

[kiahzero]

150. Then again

You haven't been listening to his speaches. Oh, I'm sure you've been hearing them, but that's different.

I want real change! I don't want a president that can out military whistle ass. I want dipolmacy. I want to mend our relationship w/the world community.

Then, if you could get past your irrational bias, you would see that Clark would be an excellent candidate to do just that. Being SACEUR is about doing more than just blowing things up. It is diplomacy, and it is maintaining a relationship with the world community.

[Pastiche423]

157. My bias

which I will admit, is not irrational. It is a bias against everything I listed in my above post. All, of which, are facts.

Please tell me what "diplomacy" clark used when he bombed the fuck out of all of those innocent men, women and children. He had to kill them to save them? That sounds too familar.

Btw, would you also tell me what it is, exactly, that he will protect us against.

[kiahzero]

166. Once again

Please tell me what "diplomacy" clark used when he bombed the fuck out of all of those innocent men, women and children. He had to kill them to save them? That sounds too familar.

Well, given that he wanted to use ground troops so that the military wouldn't be dropping bombs, this is a non-sequitur.

Btw, would you also tell me what it is, exactly, that he will protect us against.

I don't recall saying he would "protect us" against anything - I believe I said something to the effect that there is a lot of diplomacy and international cooperation in NATO, and that if you want to restore the two, then Clark would be a good choice.

I'll note that I've responded to those misleading 'facts' in other threads, and will see about finding my responses when I have a large enough block of time to do so.

[Pastiche423]

167. That's it?

Wanting troops on the ground is diplomacy?

Whaaa?

Do you know what diplomacy means?

Lookit, we are talking about our country. We are talking about someone to lead our country, not NATO.

[kiahzero]

169. Way to ignore my actual argument

No, wanting troops on the ground is my answer to your accusation that he was directly responsible for civilan casualties.

Yes, I am familiar with what diplomacy means. You, however, seem to have difficulties parsing the English language whenever Clark comes up.

Lookit, we are talking about our country. We are talking about someone to lead our country, not NATO.

Now that I've responded to your concern over diplomacy and international relations, you change the terms of debate so that my reply is no longer relevant.

Given this response, why do we care about a candidate's former job at all? After all, we are talking about someone to lead our country, not Vermont, nor the United States Senate, or House of Representatives.

[Pastiche423]

177. What was your actual arguement?

I thought we were discussing diplomacy.

I asked you to give an example of how clark has been diplomatic, and you said he wanted troops on the ground. You then threw in NATO. Which lead me to believe you did not know what diplomacy means.

As to candidate former jobs, clark has absolutely no experience in governing a civilian body.

Dean has had experience in governing a civilian body for over eleven years. He has had experience in balancing a budget, bringing healthcare to 98% of the children in his state, dealing w/taxes and has not only been a Democrat, but has been fighting for the Democratic cause for well over three decades!

[kiahzero]

179. It was pretty simple

I thought we were discussing diplomacy.
So did I, until you brought up an accusation that he was directly responsible for bombing innocent civilians. I responded to that charge. That's how a discussion works.

As for an example of diplomacy (I apologize - I must have missed where you actually asked for an example of how SACEUR was diplomatic) - The NATO action in Kosovo required a large amount of coalition building between nations.

He has had experience in balancing a budget, bringing healthcare to 98% of the children in his state, dealing w/taxes and has not only been a Democrat, but has been fighting for the Democratic cause for well over three decades!

You don't think managing military bases means balancing budgets?

Not only that, but I've made the argument before, and will now, that the military is a very socialist institution. Socialized healthcare, socialized education, with a strong emphasis on the well-being of your fellow man.

[Pastiche423]

182. Just what coalition did NATO build?

What effect did it have and to whom? How did building said coalition give clark an experience in diplomacy, and better yet, in foreign policy?

Talk to me like I was six years old. Exactly what has clark done to prove that he is a diplomatic leader and how has that effected American citizens?

No, I do not think balancing a military budget is the same, or anything close, to budgeting a civilian country.

Our country is governed by civilian laws. We are not a military state. We, the People do not take orders from our leaders.

[kiahzero]

185. That'll take a little bit of time

If you don't mind, PM me a reminder and I'll take care of it later - I'm in the midst of a research project on the IRA, as well as several other assignments.

No, I do not think balancing a military budget is the same, or anything close, to budgeting a civilian country.

That's your perogative.

Our country is governed by civilian laws. We are not a military state. We, the People do not take orders from our leaders.

I agree, as does Clark - this is a large reason for his non-partisanship while in the military.

[Pastiche423]

187. He was non-partisan BECAUSE he was in the military - DUH!

[kiahzero]

190. If it's so intuitively obvious

Why did it have to be explained to people who wanted to see him campaigning before he left the military? And if all military members are non-partisan, would you care to explain the Bush apologists in the military?

If he felt that partisanship was appropriate in the military, he easily could have been more partisan. That was my point of my statement.

In retrospect, I realized I could have made a simpler argument (though I'm not sure how much stock you will put in it): West Point cadets are trained to have an extremely healthy respect for civilian control of the military.

[TorchTheWitch]

198. GRRRRRRRRRRR

W/all of the whistle ass et al crap we, as a nation, have gone through in the last three years, anything "military" sickens and frightens me.

It's been fairly obvious that what frightens you about Clark is the military background. This is one point you've made over and over and over and over. This fear of yours is so great that the mere mention of a military uniform has you completely blinded to the fact that a PERSON is wearing it. I'm sick to death of this military bashing of yours. It is insulting to me personally as my father, all of my uncles and many of my friends were or are in the military. My dad was a career military man until the day he died and he was the most upright, generous, caring and kind individual you could ever meet, and I could not have wished for a better father and role model then he was.

My father knew and looked up to General Clark even though Clark is closer in age to my dad's oldest son, and is the only person I can remember my father holding in such high regard outside his own family. My dad has been dead for almost six years now, and a day doesn't go by that I don't miss him, but it wasn't until this disaster of a misadministration that I am actually glad he's no longer here to witness what has happened to the country he worked for, fought for, bled for and loved so much. Make no mistake about it, when you insult and disparage our military you are insulting and disparaging ME PERSONALLY, MY FAMILY and every other person here who is or was in the military themselves or has loved ones who are or were in the military. You could not have disgusted me more by leaping through my monitor and spitting directly into my face.

While you tremble in fear of our military and insult and disparage those who serve there is no question that if God forbid it ever became necessary, every single one of them would lay down their lives for frightened and ignorant people like you who only disparage and insults them at every opportunity, not simply because it's what they are trained for but because they believe to the bottom of their hearts that it's right even knowing you would be the last one in line to do the same for them. It's people like you that made me, a LIBERAL DEMOCRAT, so positive that I'd be a disaster in the military because it would be a freezing cold day in the flaming depths of hell before I'd lift so much as one fingernail to protect someone with my very life who does nothing but spew insults towards those who have dedicated themselves to protecting the likes of you if ever called upon to do so.

I want real change! I don't want a president that can out military whistle ass.

Oh, you don't? You'd prefer the major fuck ups of the non-military whistle ass that are killing our sons and daughters while they level and steal from a sovereign nation that Clark has been saying all along that we should not have attacked to begin with? Just how does a non-military person figure out the best and fastest way to get us the hell out without pissing off the entire world who are already pissed enough as it is with as few casualties as possible and at the least expense and still rebuild what we've blasted to smithereens?

I want dipolmacy. I want to mend our relationship w/the world community.

Oh, the irony! You just quoted CLARK! If you had taken your fingers out of your ears and spent a few minutes paying attention instead of gleefully googling every teeny filament of PNAC, WACO, BFEE, NED or whatever for Clark's name, you would have known that quite some time ago. I've been watching you do this for months, so either you're deaf, blind, can't read, are intellectually challenged, or you've been intentionally slandering with lies you are perfectly well aware of for whatever happy warm fuzzies it gives you.

I see further down here that you are asking questions that have been asked and answered in glittering detail numerous times, which clearly shows that you ignored all of them... and yes, I watched you continue to spout your rhetoric in those same threads, so please don't try to claim that you hadn't seen any of them. Many people provided scads of information they researched FOR you, and you have the gall to blow that off and continue to ask the same questions all these weeks later as if the entire Kosovo/Milosevic scenario and Clark’s international diplomacy and nation building experience hadn't been rehashed again and again and again here as well as after Clark himself has discussed it in depth many times.

Where were you when he showed the photo of the 5 week old baby that was killed as a result of Milosevic's repulsive ethnic cleansing with genuine tears in his eyes? Where were you when he discussed how he had to bang heads with the top brass who had no interest in stopping the ethnic cleansing and returning thousands upon thousands of Albanians to their homes, and he had to go over the heads of his superiors directly to Clinton to get it done - for which he STILL gets bashed by that whining worthless schmuck Shelton? Where were you when he discussed how he had to bang heads because the top brass didn't give a fart in the wind about the ethnic cleansing because there was no damn oil or other valuable resources in the region that we could put our slimy mits on? Where were you when it was discussed how he wasn't particularly liked at the Pentagon by the powers that be because he refused to tow the party line and instead said and did what was right and just?

If you had any real interest in having your questions answered and developing a platform where you had an actual point of argument you would have paid attention when there were numerous threads at all hours of the day with the answers, or you would have done the damn research yourself. But no... instead you prefer to keep your fingers firmly planted in your ears with your eyes squeezed tightly shut while you scour the Internet for any bit of fluff that just might cause an eyebrow somewhere to be raised. If you really had an interest in finding answers to your repeated questions about what Clark did while in the military, after he retired, who with and why, what shampoo he uses or how many times he wipes his ass after taking a crap then you'd be actually doing something to find out those answers your damn SELF. Write letters, make phone calls, conduct interviews... DO something to find out, because if you haven't already, you aren't really interested in the answers at all.

If this is how an alleged interested and informed Democrat of 30 some odd years as you have claimed informs themselves of and judges the candidates set before them, then Jesus H. Christ on a bicycle we are fucking DOOMED.

[Justice]

200. GRRR With Facts And Passion

Thank you for that truly amazing post.

[Cat M.]

90. Clark inspires fear?

Only if your name is Karl Rove.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

96. What's Wrong With The Flag?

My dad lost the sight of his right eye when he took some shrapnel and contacted malaria that nearly killed him in North Africa during WW2 defeating fascism... He spent six months at Walter Reed Hospital recuperating... He had six operations on his eye.... They could save the eye so he wouldn't need a glass one but they couldn't save the sight....

The things I remember most about my dad were going with him to the V A hospital to get his free glasses and watching him cry when the Viet Nam War P O W s returned in 1973....

"Gentle people sleep peacefully at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their belhalf."

-George Orwell (no freeper)


I eschew zenophobia, racism, ethnocentrism, jingoism as much as the next guy but when you crap all over the flag and folks who revere it you are crapping all over me and the lions share of Americans whose votes you want....

Peace 03

Brian

[Cat M.]

130. Your Post Reminds Me of Something...

that I found interesting. The last time the Supreme Court made a decision on flag desecration, very liberal justice John Paul Stevens joined the dissent in support of a law against flag desecration. He also served in WWII.

While not all servicemen support laws against flag desecration (like Colin Powell), I think for those men and women the flag does indeed mean something above and beyond what it means to many Americans.

As Stevens pointed out, quite reasonably, prohibiting someone from desecrating the flag only stifles their ability to dissent in the mildest of ways, because they are still free to criticize the flag, to curse the flag, to say any bad thing they want about the flag. In other words, it's not the speech that's being prohibited but rather how it may be exercised.

I am not in favor of amending the Constitution at all, and I don't really support a law against flag desecration, but I certainly don't find it a significant enough issue to decide my vote and I can respect that our service men and women and many others feel different than I do about it. Like cross-burning, which has been banned in many states when it is practiced with the intent to intimidate, something upheld by the Supreme Court, flag burning can bring a lot of pain to some people.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

153. I Am A First Amendment Absolutist.....

People should be free to express themselves and that includes burning flags and crosses....

I just wish folks would find a better way of expressing themselves.... If you don't like * burn a picture of him.....


I disagree with General Clark on this one.....


My point was that patriotism isn't a bad thing... Xenophobia, ethnocentrism, racism are bad things but patriotism isn't... I can love my country without hating others....

[ozone_man]

28. Dean by a country mile.

I listen to Dean and I feel like he is saying what's in my heart.

[xultar]

40. wrong spot

[ozone_man]

124. How so?

inspiring
adj : stimulating or exalting to the spirit

He moves my spirit, stimulates me. I think a political leader who is inspiring is acting in not only cerebral ways, but emotional ways as well. To me, a great leader reaches my heart.

[Rose Siding]

75. Absolutely, besides Clark leaves me cold

I suppose Clark's competent but his denial of the health effects of depleted uranium is so deceptive. And his IT jobs policy (let India have 'em) troubles me. The MIC and his stint as a corporate lobbyist for CAPPS II give me pause, as well.

[Scoopie]

175. Problem is

Ozone man, is that Dean can't win in any "country" mile. The folks in the heartland simply don't like him.
Given the choice between Dean and Bush, they'll go Bush.
Given the choice between Clark and Bush, they'll at least listen to separate the two and probably pick Clark. Clark could actually win two or three Southern states and it would be, "So long, Bushie boy." (My state being one of them: Tennessee is a swing state, voting for Clinton twice and Bus once)
You guys really need to start looking at the bigger picture. Dean is simply too convenient to Republicans. While he's not liberal, he's easily painted as a "New England liberal" in the South and mid-West and, once his conservative record starts coming out, his persona will "flip-flop" in more liberal states and the liberals won't like him.
It's very hard to "Rove" a 4-Star General on National Security issues and difficult to nick him on economic issues since Clark does hold a master's in economics: those are the two issues on which people will be voting this year.
Dean is the perfect Republican dream
candidate>

[robbedvoter]

29. Clark: Eisenhower quote: a leader is someone that makes you want to do

what he asks you. I feel elevated, honored to support him.
I liked Dean's power schtick the first time I heard it. The 10th time it grated my ears, and by now...
I mean, we Clarkies DRAFTED our man. A simple "You got me" tells me more about my power than any pronouncements.
I like his absence of arrogance("even Costa Rica has health insurance????")
I love his vision, his unusual mind
"
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/23/politics/campaigns/23CLAR.html?pagewanted=1
Always, he thought unconventionally. General Scales, his classmate, offered this: "They say in the military that you bring to your boss three solutions: one that's too hot, one that's too cold and one that's just right. That's called the Goldilocks solution. You have an answer and you steer him to it.
"Wes doesn't recognize the Goldilocks solution. He'll say: `Well maybe we shouldn't eat any porridge. And why are there bears in here? And who is this Goldilocks character wandering around? And by the way, what is the whole purpose of fairy tales?' And this drives some people nuts"

And I loved hos defense of faith tonight(in all beliefs those better off, help those in need - we LIVE our faith, not just preach it"
(and I don't quite have one per se - but his enumeration of so many faiths made me feel included too)
100 years vision - can't beat that!

[unfrigginreal]

33. Not even close...DEAN

With Dean I have a lot of the same feelings that I had toward Clinton when he was President. I smile whenever I see him on the tube, I trust what he's saying to me, I get pissed if the press and others turn on him and I get nervous when he travels. I just don't get the Clark thing, and I believe that you're right when you say it's in the eye of the beholder.

[xultar]

35. CLARK nuf said

[in_cog_ni_to]

36. Clark, by a HUGE margin.

He means what he says and he says what he means and I believe every word he says! His speeches don't have the usual political rhetoric...like..."You Have The Power!" :eyes: That is getting old. Clark has a vision for this country and he will do his best to achieve that vision and I KNOW he will do it or try his best to achieve it. He is the most sincere speaker I have ever had the pleasure of listening to. Sincerity. I see it in his eyes, I feel it in my bones and HEART. He's the REAL DEAL. JMCPO

[Justice]

42. Clark and Dean

Inspire Me in different ways. I will say that Clark inspires me in more ways.

Dean inspires me when he speaks of health care. You can see the passion.

Clark inspires me to stand up taller and be proud of being an American, to fly my flag outside my home again, and is inspiring as he speaks of veterans, speaks of teachers, and speaks of America's place in the world to help other countries. I am inspired when he speaks of leadership.

I really liked his remarks today about how all religions teach us that if we have more we help those that have less.

[Nazgul35]

45. Neither...

I don't need to be moved or inspired...led or taken by the hand to the promised land....

That being said, I support Dean and am working full throttle to get him into the WH! And I'd do that for anyone of the dems....

And the reason I support Dean is because he's right....it's not about him, or Clark or Kerry or anyone of them....

Don't you get it folks?! It is us! It doesn't matter who is at the top of the ticket...we have built something that we need to continue to grow....

It's like that old joke about the French revolutionaries who are talking on the street when they see a mob go by....one says to the other the other that I must get in front so I can lead me people to where they are going....

If we build it...they will come!! Ok..enough of that! But it's true...if we rebuild the grass roots network of the party...the politicians will come to us....look at what is happening with the DNC, what do you think the DLC fears...not Dean...he's just tapped into the frustration and desire to do something for the party....

This is a people's revolution...who sits atop the ticket doesnt matter if we continue the good wrok we are all doing for the general election....they will adopt their positions to fit our needs...

Both Dean and Clark are good enough to win it for us....but none can win it without us!

[kentuck]

48. Are you saying Howard Dean is like Harry Truman?

:)

[moz4prez]

133. he's certainly going to drop the bomb on our party

[FrenchieCat]

52. This is not about a revolution.....

This election is NOT ABOUT CHANGING THE Democratic party....

This election is about beating Bush....

Your priority are confused....next election is about changing the Party......

That type of prioritizing is dangerous, IMO!

[Nazgul35]

62. Please...

your priorities are confused...

If you need some sort of daddy to come along and save you from the big bad boggie man...

For myself, I'm going to stand up on my own two feet and take my country back....you continue to wait for some one to come along and save you...

Meanwhile, i'll be out in the streets fighting for our party all the way up and down the ticket...canvassing, registering voters for no matter who the nominee is....and that mean Clark too...

So explain to me how my working my ass off for your candidate should he win the nomination is wrong and misplaced?!

You are so tied up with the man and not with the cause....getting rid of the idiots in our friggin White House....

Besides....i'm multi tasking...I can change my party and my country at the same time....

And nice way to ignore the real message of my posts....something tells me that it is not I that doesnt understand....

[in_cog_ni_to]

91. If you're worried about the friggin idiots

in the WH then you should be supporting the candidate who can kick his arse out...THAT is Clark.

[Nazgul35]

210. If you think it's a candidate...

that is all it takes....than I feel sorry for you...

For myself, I dont need a savior to come along...we need to rebuild what we allowed to decay and destroy....

Still...I will support your candidate with as much effort is I am giving to Dean....can you say the same? If the answer is yes...than what are we arguing about...if the answer is no....than I suggest you sit down and ask yourself what your priorities are: That you are right in your choice or that you want to get Bush out...

And as far as Clark being better than Dean..there's as much evidence for the counter argument.....nothing!

I know if you say it real quick it sounds good....but unless or until one of the guys actually wins the nomination...this is just your personal opinion....

And I suggest you re-read my original post to learn just how important the candidate is in this whole process....

[VOX]

49. I love Dean, and I have supported him. But Clark is *the* one...

who can run the table on '04.

There is nothing about the man that doesn't evoke respect and inspiration -- the schooling, the eloquence, the military background, and the willingness to not be trifled with (witness the recent Faux News "interview").

Even Clark's appearance is presidential -- and, like it or not, that counts for a lot these days.

[robbedvoter]

50. Kentuck- better question: inspires you to do what? Deanies heckled Clark

are freeping our blog, come to mock our little blogger fundraiser (their big moneyed one makes them feel superior). In NYC, when collecting ballot signatures Deanies are worse than GOP-ers (and I wear a STOP BUSH button).They sneer at me, laugh :"What, Clark is not on the ballot in NY? problems, huh?" "No way I sign for ya. dean all the way, baby" Us Clarkies seem to be more general election oriented - like our candidate. So, I guess they are both inspiring, only to do different things
Freepers will say W is inspiring too..

[unfrigginreal]

54. Oh stop your whining

:cry: :cry: :cry:

Why don't you just get a count of all of the snarky comments about Dean on this thread?

[FrenchieCat]

56. What was

"snarky" was Dean lying on Clark...now that was snarky....for sure.

But I guess that God Dean can lie about others and it's acceptable to you....right? No problem...right....

Win by any means???? No integrity is snarky, IMO!

[robbedvoter]

73. And this answer is just another example. Call me whiner.

"even Costa Rica"
Another source of inspitration:
""It was like a scene from the movie `Alice's Restaurant,' " Dr. Dean said. "There was every kind of person you can imagine. Guys who weighed 375, guys who were 6-feet-5 with hair down to their knees and needle tracks up and down their arms."
 Dr. Dean said he  saw a young man sharing his urine specimen with a fellow draftee.  "I mean, that is what it was like," Dr. Dean said. "Welcome to the U.S. Army, boys."

[in_cog_ni_to]

58. When did the Deanies heckle Clark?

:grr: I must have missed that one too. :(

[robbedvoter]

81. During his speech. Twice. First when he said: "I didn't vote for W"

Second time when he spoke about the war in Bosnia.
After the Phillip Exeter event, deanies called on C-Span. One refered to the townhall as "exhibition" - then asked about DU. The other one called on the GOP line and had the nerve to ask Clark to "justify" his vote for Raygun.
Remonded me of rabbid freepers following Clinton around.
The "main attraction entries on the speech thread were of the same timber.

[ibegurpard]

94. And you knew these callers were Dean supporters how?

Did they self-identify? just wondering

[Scott Lee]

121. The sound of crickets is heard.

It's amazing, isnt it, all these "Dean supporters" appear just in time to use in some antiDean screed - yet you can never find out exactly who "they" are?

[Jerseycoa]

156. I heard it today

And saw Clark heard it, too. I don't know where it was coming from, though. I'm hoping somebody who was there can speak to this. Do you happen to know how the attendance worked? Were those people Florida delegates or did the campaigns pack it with supporters? It's hard to judge what the support level was really for anybody.

[kentuck]

59. That is why I left it so ambiguous....

Because people are inspired for different reasons. Some people feel like they have an investment in a candidate if they give them money. Once they donate, they will usually stick with a candidate thru thick and thin. Dean has cultivated a lot of loyalty in this way, in my opinion. Clark does have a sincerity in his words that I find inspirational in some way...

[unfrigginreal]

65. What a joke!

So, Deans support is only because us idjits have money invested in him? How could you even see us waayyy down here?

[kentuck]

69. It's been my experience that people feel like it's an investment?

By the way, have you donated to the Dean campaign? :)

[unfrigginreal]

78. Really?

How about fleshing out that comment a little bit, because I've not seen it in any of the Dean supporters that I know. How many do you know that support Dean just because they have sent him money? What have they said about it?

[kentuck]

80. It's not just Dean. It's any politician.

Including the other candidates in this field.

[unfrigginreal]

118. But you singled out Dean supporters

Dean has cultivated a lot of loyalty in this way, in my opinion.

How did you come to this opinion?

[in_cog_ni_to]

67. NOT ME!

I have donated $500 to Dean, went to 4 Meet Ups and a Dean rally/convention in Milwakee Wi. and I switched. I had a lot of time an $$ invested in him and he started turning me off. Then, Clark came on board and spoke to me like no other candidate since Clinton. He just feels RIGHT!

[kentuck]

74. I'll bet you are an exception...

I would be curious to see how many others that have donated to Dean have switched to Clark?

[in_cog_ni_to]

82. You think?

I know there's a lot of ex Dean supporters here on DU who have switched to Clark, but I don't know if they have donated to Dean or not. That might be a good thread to start! :)

[Jerseycoa]

164. I did (eventually)

I supported Dean and contributed money, but dropped out before too long. I think Edwards was in for a short bit. Then I liked Graham and did the same until he pulled out. Although it was clear he wasn't getting anywhere all along, Graham was somebody I could respect and admire. I admire the Dean Campaign very much; I don't admire Howard Dean and I don't respect him.

When Clark declared, I was there and I am still there. I don't agree with him on everything, but I don't expect to. He is very progressive on social issues and civil rights. He is strong on national security, is a multinationalist and an environmentalist. He is a visionary who thinks every problem through from start to finish and then he acts. He is for religious freedom and separation of church and state. He believes war is the very last resort. Burning the flag, not burning the flag, it's not something I worry about particularly. I respect his right to feel differently.

So, yes, Clark inspires me.

[dobak]

217. I've donated to Dean - n/t

[meow mix]

214. oops, NOT ME TOO!!

=) almost missed this

lesee..
theres 3 people in my household. all of us donated to dean many months ago.

2 of us are now ga-ga over clark instead.

the remaining contributer is still deadset on dean,
i suspect its because of the money type of reason stated here.
(he feels invested in dean)

i just want shrub gone.
thank goodness we have clark!!! he's an excellent human being.

[chaska]

61. Hmm, I didn't know that, Robbed.

That changes everything for me. I withdraw the even handed comments I made above. Dean is my number two now, number two enemy after Bush. That really is dispicable behavior.

[Nazgul35]

70. so based upon something you read...

on the internet...cause everything we read on the internet is true you have made Dean enemy number two next to Bush?!

Something tells me you didnt need alot of pushing....

And I would ask you to read some of the special "Dean is leading us to a disaster" threads around...sponsered by the good folks from Clarkies for Clark...

[in_cog_ni_to]

77. But Clarkies for Clark

don't heckle Dean or harass Dean supporters on the streets or go to the Dean blog and post nasty things. Big difference in the 2 campaigns. I think he/she has made a wise decision. JMCPO

[jumptheshadow]

72. Yes, I'm sick of the polarization

Well, I have a lot of reasonable friends who support Dean. But they also are ABB and have the class not to berate somebody's commitment to the candidate of his or her choice.

I'm sick to death of polarization from all sides. I just wish we would start the healing process in this country. And I don't believe it helps our nation's situation at all when someone reacts to a reactionary administration by becoming reactive themselves.

[KaraokeKarlton]

57. Definitely Dean

Clark doesn't inspire or motivate me at all. I like a lot of what he has to say but he really lacks the ability to hone his points into a concise, focused way. He says a bunch of good sounding things but lacks the all important ability to present his ideas in a clear way that sticks in my mind after he stops speaking. Basically, as soon as he's done talking, I don't recall anything he's said. With Dean, whatever he says I'm able to recall his points indefinitely. I can also recall the points Clinton made when he spoke. This, in my opinion, is part of the "it" factor, and Clark just doesn't have that.

[FrenchieCat]

135. You remember what Dean says...

cause he says the same thing everytime.....

When Clark is talking, it's true, you do have to put on your thinking cap.

[KaraokeKarlton]

143. I'm not talking only about speeches

I'm talking about interviews as well. Dean has a better way of speaking directly.

[Scoopie]

178. No he doesn't

Not to more than half of the country.
He's sounds "snarky" to most Southerners and mid-Westerners - believe me. I'm not trying to be crass. I'm speaking the truth. We don't view it as "direct," we see it as rude.
Clark is direct without coming across as someone with a chip on his shoulders.

[KaraokeKarlton]

211. I don't buy that for a second

Especially since I spent a few years living in 3 different southern states. If people didn't like him in those areas then why does he attract more people to his rallies than all other campaigns combined? And what's with all those meetup members in the south and mid west?

Wouldn't it be better to just simply say that YOU don't like him and find him to be "snarky"? It would be much more accurate.

[LouisFC]

60. Clark!

I don't want to be angry anymore.

[DemCam]

63. Clark has given me my country.

It may be hokey as hell, but it is a powerfully inspirational thing...that old straight to the corazon thing.

I can see why Dean is appealing so those of you who support him...but Clark is the man that I believe is the man to lead us out of the darkness. I forgive him for all the things that he says that I don't quite agree with...because he will cause no harm.

As his old friend told me...Wes will never, ever, do anything morally
wrong. I believe it...its part of his being. Dean's energy may be overwhelming...but I prefer the quiet American courage.

That phrase is perfect.

[ibegurpard]

68. Nice sentiments

I think you need to instruct a few of your more boisterous counterparts in civility.

[in_cog_ni_to]

71. That was nice.

I can tell Clark is sincere, but it's nice to hear from someone who knows him personally. I trust the man with my life and my family's life.

[joanski01]

85. Clark is the most inspiring.

Dean was good in the beginning. I donated to his campaign. Then I donated to Kerry and voted for Kerry in the MoveOn vote. I also donated to Kucinich. Then Clark came along. He really inspired me. He can do the job. He can get the votes. I think Dean will only get the grassroots votes. I come to this conclusion by talking to people who are not political junkies.

I really like Clark and Kerry. I like Edwards, too.

[gulliver]

87. Clark

Although I usually like what Dean has to say, I don't think Dean can deliver the presidency. I like what Kerry has to say too, but same thing. When I hear Clark talk, I hear something good, and I think he can actually get it.

I think Clark would be as good for the Democratic party as Dean but a lot better for the country as a whole. Clark speaks of uniting the country and the world. I believe him.

I don't want to see Dean lose ignominiously to Clark. I respect and like Dean. I think Dean is right about what makes a good Democrat. I also think Dean has a top notch intellectual and rhetorical take on most issues. I just think Clark is exactly the right medicine for our country and world.

[DeepModem Mom]

88. I'm for Clark, but until tonight, would have said Dean --

I will never forget how I felt, after long months of feeling powerless, when I first heard Dean say, "You have the power." Was there really hope? Was somebody out there, daring to speak out publicly against Bush, when people seemed afraid even to speak out privately? Since then, Dean has inspired a legion of followers.

Tonight, however, I thought Clark more inspiring. He wasn't as comfortable with the hoopla of the convention setting, and it showed. But his intellect and vision inspired me, and I think his message and persona will inspire voters beyond the Florida convention, and beyond our party's activists. I think he is uniquely the man for this moment.

[kentuck]

95. "..the man for the moment"

interesting.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[_NorCal_D_]

93. My sentiments exactly.

B-):eyes:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

117. I Was Told In Business

if two people agree on everything then one isn't necessary...

Does that apply to cyberspace?

[kentuck]

97. Welcome!

But I disagree. What generals were better than Clark?

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[in_cog_ni_to]

100. What a crock of Sh*T!

Do you have any evidence that there was a better general for the promotions he got? or is that a personal opinion? If it's not an opinion...got a link? I HOPE you aren't referring to Shelton. If you are....all I can say is Bwahahahahahaha! Clark has more intelligence in his pinky finger than Shelton could ever hope to have. Now, do you have a link to back up your statement? I need some proof about the Clinton rhetoric you just spewed too. Got a link? Thanks.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

122. I Find It Interesting

that folks here are pushing rumors that emanated in the right wing press.......


Very interesting....

[Cat M.]

127. Well...

that's because a lot of people don't even perceive there is such a thing as a "right-wing" press. A recent survey showed that more people still perceive a liberal bias to the media (although that number is going down).

Personally, I think most of the media leans right. But then I'm so far to the left, I make PISA look straight.

[Field Of Dreams]

106. Wrong

Clark's military reviews are glowing ... want to see some quotes from those he served under?

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DancingBear]

92. Oh for goodness sakes

The question was simply "who inspires you more" - would it possible to maybe just stay focused on that?

And to think I wasted a whole thread yesterday imploring people to act civil. <sigh>

To answer the question - in my case, Clark. Dean is a very emotional speaker, and can easily fire a crowd up. I am concerned, however, as to how much this approach plays to the non-believer. Fire and brimstone are quite effective when used in moderation and in the right circumstances. To me, Dean seems to use it at every turn, and it tends to wear on me a bit.

Clark, on the other hand, reminds of Clinton in this regard - you KNOW he has the answer to the question, and you KNOW he has the facts to back an assertion up. It is that quiet confidence that inspires me. There's an old saying that goes "he twisted the knife before you knew you were even stabbed" - Clinton was masterful at that type of debate, and I think Clark is as well.

Political aside: The military component, if not overused, is a huge factor. Clark, due to his background, can (I think) make the flag "issue" his own. I don't feel that Dean can - at least not to the general populace. Do not underestimate the part that patriotism (real or perceived) will play in this campaign - it will be huge.

There, see how easy that was?? :) :)

Play nice. And, BTW, it was nice to see (2!) good candidates battling it out.

[kentuck]

102. Well said, DancingBear!

I am not terribly concerned about the flag at this time but it might be nice to have someone to prevent the Repubs from wrapping themselves in it and proclaiming themselves "patriots" and everyone else "traitors". Maybe it is a necessity at this time of our history?

[DancingBear]

114. I believe it is, kentuck

This will be the raison d'etre (Tish, that's French.. :) ) in the upcoming campaign. * is a one-trick pony, and jingoism sells. He can't run on the economy (no matter how well it is perceived) - Clark will paint him into a corner with facts - blue collar job losses, steel tariffs etc. Bush is literally too dumb to engage in argument along those lines (remember daddy's "bar code" supermarket gaffe? - and daddy was the smart one in the family).

He has to run on good guys vs. bad guys, us vs. them, with us or against us - and there isn't a chance in hell he's gonna be able to paint a 4-star general as unpatriotic. But if he trys to - well, you know the phrase Clark will respond with.

[in_cog_ni_to]

104. Oh man!

I forgot we were suppose to play nice. It's getting VERY difficult to do these days.. :(

I agree with you on the Clark military factor. The shrub is going to make Iraq his "issue". Who better to counter that than Clark?

[Cat M.]

101. Clark is the ONLY one who is inspiring.

I'm 34 and have never contributed to a campaign until Clark entered the race. I will be contributing my maximum. I know many Clark supporters in the same boat. By contrast, the Boston Globe ran an article on Dean's Meetup supporters--the majority--by about 90+ percent--had been politically active for some time. Many were Naderites, so we know that backing someone who can win is not really an objective for them.

Dean appeals to the liberal base--people that would already be voting in the primary. But that's only 17% of the population. Clark appeals to people who know they don't want Bush but can't find anyone in the democratic party who inspirse them. Clark inspires democrats, republicans, and independents. This is why Clark does far better on polls of ALL voters while Dean does better in polls of likely democratic voters.

We have a "California" situation here. By that, I mean the usual California gubernatorial races. The republican base always turns out for the primaries and nominates some diehard conservative who couldn't possibly win in California. That's why Arnold jumped in this year. He never would have cleared a CA republican primary.

Dean may get primary voters--who tend to be the most liberal members of the party--but when it comes to the election, he'll lose in a landslide.

Clark inspires me because he is honest, has integrity and courage, and is an intellectual. He's compassionate, as he demonstrated regarding his desire to save the Rwandans and his work in Kosovo. He also sees the big picture--the whole world is like one big country of interconnected states, all dependent on one another in some way. When one is weak, it hurts all of us. He has lived abroad, traveled overseas, met with people from other countries and heard their problems--he is uniquely qualified to be the next president.

If Dean gets the nomination, I will not be contributing any time or money to his campaign. I 100 percent believe that he cannot win, and I will not be wasting my money.

And for the record, I am a far left liberal. My positions, to be honest, are left of both Dean AND Clark. But I support Clark because I believe he's the best man for the job and I know he's the only one who can win.

Dean is another inarticulate trip on your tongue bumbler born with a silver spoon in his mouth, who acts like he's entitled to the nomination. The people who support him...frankly haven't impressed me much so far. I don't want an angry candidate with angry supporters. I want a well-reasoned candidate with intellectual, well-reasoned supporters.

I want Clark.

[in_cog_ni_to]

109. Cat M.

Welcome to DU! :hi: Excellent post and I wholeheartedly agree with every word of it!

[Cat M.]

112. Waving back atcha!

Hi! I've been around here a few times but I usually leave. I don't actually enjoy arguing with people. It starts to stress me out. And the amount of support Dean has discourages me.

It's like when Bush's approval numbers come out and you go "Huh? How can all these people be so blind to give their support to someone like that?"

That's exactly how I feel about Dean. I can't tell if he's really a nice guy or not but if he gets the nomination, Karl Rove will make Swiss cheese out of him when he gets done firing all the ammunition he has.

[_NorCal_D_]

113. Welcome to DU!

B-):bounce:

[Cat M.]

119. Thanks. :)

I love your bouncing guy!

[in_cog_ni_to]

128. The "smilies lookup table" link is right above the

subject line when you're posting. Just click on the link above and it gives you the html to use for all the smilies. :7

[PROGRESSIVE1]

107. Clark!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:dem::dem::dem::dem::dem::dem::dem::dem::dem:
:dem::dem::dem::dem::dem::dem::dem::dem::dem:

[Scott Lee]

108. Clark inspires citizenship - Dean inspires hope.

I like Wes Clark. I mean, in the way that I'd be happy to go have a few beers with him. He's the kind of person that you'd want to call a friend and ally. That is not a bad thing at all. He is a textbook example of someone who can face a task, create a team and perform that task.

Dean fills me and so many others with something that has been sorely lacking from the morphine-injected Democratic party: a true hope that we can change all this mess. I have never in my 43 years seen people from so many different areas of the spectrum come together with such enthusiam for someone. It's phenomenal, something I would have sworn could never happen in this country a few short months ago.

[VolcanoJen]

110. Both... but I have to say that Dean was pretty darned inspiring today.

I think he was on fire... and it's really the first time I've thoroughly enjoyed one of his speeches. Awesome!!

[poskonig]

125. Dean motivates by empowerment. Clark motivates with fear.

I find Dean more inspiring. Clark's a solid candidate, but I don't get psyched up for military metaphors.

If people weren't so afraid of Bush, I doubt anyone in this party would.

[Cat M.]

136. Fear??

What is it with you guys that Clark motivates with fear?

I have watched almost everything Clark has done and never gotten that impression. Clark uses reality but not fear and while Clark addresses terrorism in his foreign policy plans, he doesn't say "Elect me or you're all going to die."

He says the truth--he is the best qualified to go against Bush on foreign policy and National security issues. He doesn't just mean terrorism. He also means the war in Iraq.

He says that national security/foreign policy will be the real issue in the 2004 election; he's right again. With the economy improving as much as it has been, it will be harder for dems to use that against Bush come next fall. But unless Bush catches Osama bin Laden and resolves Iraq before then, those are still going to be hanging out there.

I'm sorry you feel it's about fear. Again, while I get that impression with Bush, I don't get that impression with Clark. Bush is always saying things like "Do we want another 9-11?" or "The smoking gun could be in the form of a mushroom cloud." Those are remarks that inspire fear.

Clark says "Terrorists are out there, we need to find them and make America safer. I have a plan to do that."

This just doesn't inspire fear in me. I find it comforting.

[OKNancy]

172. Cat - if you are still around...I love your blog on Salon

I've enjoyed your writing for a long time now. I'm so glad you are posting!

[Mattforclark]

126. You're pretty much gonna get

Dean supporters saying Dean and Clark supporters saying Clark.

That said, Clark inspires me more than Dean.

[karlschneider]

129. I like them both, but I guarantee Clark's persona will resonate far more

with the vast majority of mid-America. We all know that if Shrub had not been perceived as "a nice all-American fellow" (however false that impression) he wouldn't have come within a country mile of Al Gore.

Like it or not (I don't), the television image is way more significant than positions on issues.

[Deja Q]

137. I thik Kucinich is the most inspiring, leaving out 7 of the candidates is

mean spirited, IMHO. Is this nothing more than a petty popularity contest? I want a person who'll deal with issues. (society prefers charisma, which speaks volumes...)

However, my final judgement on any candidate won't come until after he/she is nominated.

[Duder]

138. Apples & oranges...

Dean.

[robbedvoter]

140. More deanies inspired to be thugs- Fla witness report:

I don't know if you could hear it in C-Span but at the beginning of Clark's speech, the Deanies stood outside the door of the auditorium and chanted. How rude!. Someone finally shut them up but there were a lot of ticked off people in the audience at the back where I was.

[in_cog_ni_to]

144. Now that is the kind of thing

that is going to make supporters turn away from Dean. That was very rude. Not only is the WH in fear of the General, so are the Dean supporters. If they didn't fear him, they wouldn't do that. Very childish, but can't say I'm surprised.

[_NorCal_D_]

145. Unbelievable....

Very sad. :(

[meow mix]

146. fer shure its clark

i love himmmmm!

if he's not nominated,
then ill officially panic and start plans for new bomb shelter.

[Killarney]

147. Definitely Dean...

I think he has presence and charisma. He can rally the crowd. Florida loved him today. I got all fired up!

[meow mix]

149. except..

that they already let the media make up thier minds for them
(imo)
and were therefore pre-disposed to being fired up for dean?
silly kids.

clarks speech was way way the best =)

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

151. Dean

Thank you! Have a good evening.

[dansolo]

154. I find them both inspiring

Neither one has backed down on their attacks on Bush, and recently they have even ratcheted it up. That's what I want to see. We need someone who will fight for us, not capitulate and strike backroom deals.

[Auntie Bush]

158. Clark is more inspiring by far.

I was originally for Dean...(being from VT.) but never gave him any money as I never in my life gave anyone money. But when Clark became a possibility I jumped in with both fists full of dollars and donated three times and I'm going to give again this month. Anyone who can get my precious little money...has to be inspiring. Clark is not only more inspiring than Dean...but he is the most inspiring candidate I've ever known in my 60+ years. Clinton is the first one to inspire me and he still does and always will.
If Clark gets a chance to run...he'll win...2 terms...go down in history as the greatest president we ever had. I truly believe that with all my heart. Go Wes go!

[TLM]

159. Apparently Clark inspires his supporters to

flood DU and spew endless amounts of vicious attacks on other dems.


Whereas Dean inspires his followers to win elections and beat W.

[Auntie Bush]

160. Rubbish!

Go read some of the posts on this site.

[ibegurpard]

168. Before today, I would've agreed with you

Now I see them in a whole new light.

[Walt Starr]

163. Either one would inspire me to donate and campaign

At this point, any of the nine would do that!

[BootinUp]

165. Well, this is such subjective thing

Obviously, both are inspiring to the supporters they have gained. I think a better question is why doesn't one or the other inspire you. In Clark's case I suspect a significant number of DU'ers that don't support Clark are somewhat prejudiced against a General as President. Before you flame me, I didn't say all non-Clark supporters!

In Deans case, I suspect that many non-Dean supporters do not think he can win against Dubya. This is my feeling, and hence I am not 'inspired' to support him. I do like it when he slams Bush or the republicans or when he puts out new ideas that I think will help our party. So I give Dean credit when credit is due.

Cheers all and keep it real

[kerryistheanswer]

174. Neither

Both are Republicats. One voted for Nixon and Reagan - he voted for Ronald Reagan twice!! Not to mention that he sees the world as a military base.

The other attacks way too much. I prefer diplomats over bullies.

[arewethereyet]

180. they both inspire me to pray that Edwards gets the nomination

neither inspire me positively

[Pastiche423]

183. I pray (agnostically) that Johnny boy does not

[arewethereyet]

184. to each his own

n/t

[Schmendrick54]

193. Bush, Cheney, and Ashcroft inspire me to take action.

I am currently working for Howard Dean, but I think Clark, Kerry, Gephardt, and Edwards are all excellent candidates and I will enthusiastically support (with money and time) whichever one wins.

I watched the movie trailer for LOTR Return of the King today and it inspired me to modify Aragorns motivational speech to suit our situation.

=========
The day may come when the courage of America fails,
when we forsake our heritage of freedom and break faith with
those who have fought to defend those freedoms against
all enemies, foreign and domestic.

But it is not this day.

The day may come when America believes the lies of the
Wormtongues who speak of "phantoms of lost liberties" while
jailing people without hearings and limiting dissent to
designated First Amendment zones.

But it is not this day.

The day may come when Americans no longer hold their
constitutional birthright so dear that they will pledge
their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor to defend it.

But it is not this day.

This day, we fight.

We fight to take our country back.

Will you join us?

[saoirse]

197. Clark inspires, Dean bores me to tears

It ain't even close.

Nominating Dean = political suicide.

[DoNotRefill]

199. Dean....

2 years ago, had people said "Clark 2004", most of us would have said "huh?"

I prefer my politicians to be a LITTLE bit more seasoned, not to mention having a longer record of being a progressive. And being a general responsible for invading another country doesn't strike me as a very "progressive" credential.

[NicRic]

202. Dean more polished -Clark more electable !

After for the frist time listenning to both of them give a speech at the same location .I will admit as a speaker Dean is better then Clark ,however Clark coming off as not a pro politician, he came up as very sincere and real ! All I know is most of my frustration is the devisions within our own party .This would be a non issuse if we where not dealing with a pResident with $ as far as the eye can see and the ability to capitalize on the devisions within our party ! This is all a symptom of Al Gore not running ,if he would had been in this race from the start ,our party would be united like never B/4 ! The old saying better late then never apllies, and Iam hoping its sooner than later. We have a big job on our hands trying to oust the theives in power ! Its not looking to good with all of the devision and infighting. Dems must unite with one goal ,anyone except bush in the White House after the 2004 election ! I like Clark and Dean ,however in the end Dean will be painted a far left liberial, and he will lose ,Clark with a little polishing up on his speaking skills ,would be to go to guy with moderates on the fence ! Letting our party fall into the control of the radicial left will be our downfall in 2004 !

[Boo Boo]

206. Bush is the man that inspires me

Actually, I think that "most inspiring" is in the eye of the beholder. Otherwise, you wouldn't be asking this question. Some folks are turned off by Dean's attempts at "inspiration," others think Clark lacks "fire." OTOH, who is most likely to win against Bush is probably more of an objective fact, if not a perfect science. You can't ever be sure, I guess.

Clark takes votes away from Bush, which is a double whammy---two for the price of one. Dean, the "Anti-War" candidate, with his Guitar, will fail the the Wartime Leader litmus test, and be forced to try to compete on the strength of his organization. That is, he'll just have to turn out enough Liberal Lefty voters to win. That's been a losing strategy in this country for quite some time.

Either way, it's GW's election to lose. If he faces Clark he'll be judged more on domestic policy, because Clark is, in "real life" (something Bush has trouble with), a Wartime Leader. OTOH, if he faces Dean, he can play the War card to maximum advantage, and mitigate his domestic weaknesses.

Remember, it doesn't really matter that the War is unpopular. Viet Nam was very unpopular; people were rioting in the streets. Nixon won anyway. He won, because the War was a fact, unpopular or not. "I'm against it," is not a policy. Nixon promised to bring the troops home, and so will Bush.

This, BTW, is why you see the McGovern comparisons going around. Not because Dean is like McGovern, he's not. McGovern was a War vetern, and an honest-to-God WWII Hero. Dean gets compared to McGovern because he's percieved as an "Anti-War" candidate during a time of War, like McGovern. He'll likely meet the same fate.

I say that as a person who gleefully plastered his Daddy's car with McGovern stickers when he was a kid, and has every intention of voting Democrat no matter who the nominee is. I *always* vote Democrat. The Republicans usually win.

You want inspiration? Sign up for a Tony Robbins seminar. Take a hike through the Grand Canyon. Read a book. All I want to do is send Bush back to Crawford. That's all the inspiration I need.

On edit: I guess that means I'm inspired by Clark. :-)

[rucky]

208. No need to compare - they're both inspiring

Dean empowers people
Clark oozes leadership

That ticket would be unstoppable - in any order.

[ThomWV]

209. Dean Only As Last Resort

It is my desire to Vote for Wesley Clark in the Primary and then again in the general election. That really is the way I want it to go. However, if Dean is the Nominee of the Democratic party, and that is not my wish, I will certainly vote for him in the general election. It is as simple as that. I think Clark is far the best man for the job of President but I'll take 2nd or 3rd best, or even down to 9th if that's what it takes, if I have to but I want the man with global experience. Clark is the man, Dean is not. Were these were times more similar to Eisenhower's terms I'd say Dean would be fine, but they are not. Like it or not we are indeed in a deep world-wide conflict and Clark has the experience to deal with it, Dean does not. That is my opnion. You may not care for it, and you can try to change it, but I don't see that there is much that can be said to elevate Dean in my eyes. He can not, in the next year. get the sort of experience.

Thom

Thom

[Kahuna]

212. Clark is passionate and presidential. He is..

the president I was promised as a kid.

[1971]

215. Clark inspires, Clark gives hope

As a Democrat,

- it was great to hear Dean talk about health care issues
(because he's a doctor, and we all know that the AMA despises HMOs and doctors are the least affectionate for anybody telling them what they can and cannot prescribe for their patients),

- it was great to hear Dean support human rights equality by supporting gay marriage,

- it was great to have a Democrat with a national platform speak the angry words we all have about the Bush administration's damaging and divisive policies (and not have to censor himself too much because he's not a Senator or a Congressman),

- and, did I say it was great to hear Dean lambast the Bush administration? Yeah!

BUT....

With Wesley Clark, we can get just about everything Dean has to offer, and MORE.

- with Wes Clark, we get a tried-and-true leader of international caliber,

- with Wes Clark, we get all the anger funneled and directed to constructive goals that he will accomplish because we know he will find a way to get them done,

- with Wes Clark, we get a leader who listens and observes all aspects of a situation on the road to defining strategies, not the arrogance currently ruling the White House,

- with Wes Clark, he will not be a bully, but he will command the pulpit,

- and with Wes Clark, the world will snap to attention at his leadership. Period.

Wes Clark inspires us, the nation, and the world to be better.
Because when we can do good, we should.
A while back I travelled through Europe and Central America.
Know whose picture I saw in the most unassuming places, like restaurants, and living rooms, and taco stands? JFK.
I predict, if Wes Clark is elected President of the United States,
his picture will be right up there next to JFK's.
He inspires. He leads.

[Auntie Bush]

216. Clark inspires me

Amen! to Clark being right up there with JFK.
When he finishes his 8 years...he'll be the best president ever!

[Kanola]

218. I love Dean's bluntness about changing the DEM party

I loved his speech yesterday about we cannot be Bushlite anymore and to be proud to be DEMS and go to the polls and be proud of voting again. Very inspiring!


I also think Clark has much compassion. I like that about him.