"Peacenik McGovern II versus Electable Military man" GOP weighs in.

[chaska]

http://www.polipundit.com/

"Dean Leads in South Carolina

Howard Dean has a slight lead in South Carolina. Go, Dean, Go! Dean's
campaign is taking the fight to the February 3 states.
posted by PoliPundit at 11:27 AM Link to this post | Comments (7)

Give, Give, Give

To everyone who took up my call to donate to Howard Dean in June,
here's your new assignment: Give all you can to John Edwards and/or
John Kerry.
The rationale is simple:
1. We still want Dean to be the nominee so that President Bush can
crush him and have long coattails.
2. The biggest threat to a Dean nomination is no longer Dick Gephardt,
John Kerry or John Edwards. It's Weasel Clark, for all the reasons
outlined below.
3. To help Dean, we have to bring down Clark's vote totals in the crucial
states of New Hampshire and South Carolina.
4. In New Hampshire, donating to neighbouring-son John Kerry will help
ensure that Clark won't surpass expectations by finishing ahead of Kerry.
5. In South Carolina, Clark can be stopped by neighbouring-son John
Edwards.
Donating online is easy. Just click here to donate to Kerry or click here to
donate to Edwards.
posted by PoliPundit at 7:07 AM Link to this post | Comments (13)

Clark is Not Out

Mickey Kaus agrees that Weasel Clark is the most likely Great
Anti-Dean Hope:

[Jack Rabbit]

1. The argument is no better now than it was before

The argument that Dean is like McGovern because he opposed a war is no better now with the GOP making the case than it was before with the DLC making it. It is complete nonsense.

How does opposing the Iraq invasion make Dean unelectable? The invasion was predicated on lies. Those who opposed it, including Dean, predicted that it would squander military resources that could be used to better purpose, and it has. Those who opposed it, including Dean, predicted that it would result in a quagmire, and it has. Those who opposed it, including Dean, warned that Bush was squandering the goodwill of the world, and he did.

So now we're supposed to belive that Bush has the upper hand on those who opposed his boneheaded invasion? Give me a break!

[Bombtrack]

3. and the public still supports the decision by 20 points, at least

that's after the bloodiest month since the war began.

Clark also apposed the war at least as much as Dean did.

Clark on the grounds that Nato backed and congress voted on the war, and Dean on the grounds that the UN backed it.

At least Clarks stance isn't as much of a cop-out, considering Chirac would never have let the UN back the invasion

[Eloriel]

18. No they don't

And the ones who do won't be voting for our guy under ANY circumstances.

Eloriel

[Bombtrack]

25. Oh really? ok sorry 15 points, but your second statement is rediculous

FOX News/Opinion Dynamics Poll. Dec. 3-4, 2003. N=900
registered voters nationwide. MoE ± 3.

"Do you think going to war with Iraq was the right thing
for the United States to do or the wrong thing?"
 
       Right  Wrong   Not
      Thing%  Thing%  Sure%
12/03   55      38     7
10/03   58      35     7

Program on International Policy Attitudes/Knowledge Networks
Poll. Nov. 21-30, 2003. N=712 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.7.

"Do you think the U.S. made the right decision or the
wrong decision in going to war against Iraq?"

            Right  Wrong   Not
            dec.%   dec.%  dec.% 
11/21-30     55     41      4 
10/29-11/10  57     38      5  

Time/CNN Poll conducted by Harris Interactive. Nov. 18-19,
2003. N=1,507 adults nationwide. MoE ± 2.5.

"Do you think the United States was right or wrong in
going to war with Iraq?"
 
          Right  Wrong  Not Sure 
11/18-19   55      39     6
9/3-4      63      32     5
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I corrected myself, and I think you should do the same. It's
foolish to say that people who support the war would NEVER
vote against Bush. 

On the contrary about a third of democrats and almost half of
independants outright support decision to go to war.  

two of the terms being bandied about in political science are
starbucks democrats and walmart democrats. Starbucks liberals
care more about social and foriegn policy issues, and walmart
dems care more about economic issues.

there are ALOT of voters(dems and independants)who aren't
anti-war and would vote against Bush, probably just as many as
there are anti-war voters. 

However there are barely ANY, maybe only 5 percent, of
anti-war voters who would vote for Bush, which would
neccessitate nominating an anti-war candidate

Eloriel, sorry for inflating my numbers, it wasn't on
purpouse. I apologixe for that, but you should admit your
wrong about war supporters not voting for a dem under any
circumstances 

[Julien Sorel]

5. Were the charges that Gore claimed to invent the internet good?

As things transpired, it was. Was the video of Dukakis riding around in the tank effective? Dukakis had proposed no defense spending cuts, yet that image sank him in concrete as a soft on defence, big spending liberal. And that was when the Cold War was winding down; we have a hot war raging now. Dukakis has balanced 9 consecutive budgets in Massachussetts, by the way. For some reason, that reminds me of someone.

At any rate, 'Good,' for some of these amoral scum (a number, amusingly enough, among whom Dean can be counted), is what works, and smearing Democrats as weak big spenders works.

One good thing that might come from a Dean candidacy is that some of you people finally wake up and realize that the Republicans are operating on a P.T. Barnum level, and it works. I can, and did, indignantly point out Dukakis' record, and it still didn't do a damn bit of good. He's a footnote.

[Jim Sagle]

9. That's a STOOPID comparison. Dean fights back, Dukakis didn't..

[Julien Sorel]

10. Of course it is.

All Dean has to do is 'Fight back,' and decades of stereotyping will be wiped from the public's mind. You have the power!

Stupid indeed.

[Jim Sagle]

26. You know yourself well, grasshopper.

[MaryBear]

22. (snork)

lol

well stated, jr, as usual.

[Jack Rabbit]

28. Thank you, GrandmaBear

I want to also add that I have not yet committed to a candidate, and that Dean and Clark are both high on my list.

To that end, I would greatly appreciate it if partisans of these two fine men would do a better job on this forum of presenting each candidate's point of view instead of trying to drag the other one through the mud.

Thank you all in advance.

[SPURGEMAN23]

2. WTF

Are you using that site for support for Clark? If you have to resort to that, wow.

Did you read the rest of that? Come on, these people love dick cheney. I remember when the same things were said about Gore. Yeah, he has no chance, whoopee. He got more votes and the Cons could not have had more excitement in the base.

Listen, cons are confused about what to do. One side thinks it is a great matchup the other is warning against him. I am happy with my choice. He will fight back. We have received more votes in the last 3 elections and the totals keep going up.

[Bombtrack]

4. proves the obvious that the right wants Dean now like they have all along

.

[poskonig]

6. McGovern was a war hero who opposed a war.

Clark is a war hero who supposedly opposes a war.

What exactly are you trying to say?

[in_cog_ni_to]

7. Gee! I'm shocked! Shocked, I say!

My question is, how can those freepers afford to donate to the chimpmaster AND to Democratic candidates too?

Damn assholes. We knew this is what they were doing. It's so obvious who KKKRove wants to put up against the shrub. :grr:

[Zomby Woof]

8. don't underestimate the power of propaganda

Especially GOP propaganda. Look what Atwater did to Dukakis. Look what Rove did to Gore. Dumbass mainstream middle America ate it up then, and they could again.

It doesn't matter what the truth is about Dean or Clark, what matters is what kind of smears are the Repubs going to be able to get away with, and will they be able to counter them, a la Clinton - who DID fight back hard, espcially in 1992, when he got flak from his own party and the GOP.

We all know the McGovern crap is bullshit - everyone knows I don't like Clark or Dean, but even I know it's bullshit, and a smear. My advice is to just be careful, and be sure mainstream voters, who are lesser junkies than we are about these issues, won't eat it up - again.

[farmbo]

11. A moronic observation from a rightwing blog...this means what?

Here' some keen political insight from that same blog:
<snip>
So, on a whim, I've deleted some mindless-spam-propaganda Clark-troll comments.

If you have something intelligent and articulate to contribute, I'll probably let it stand. However, if you comment after every post, "You REPUBS are so gonna looooose! CLARK is the mannn!" I'll probably delete your comments. They're inarticulate, repulsive, repetitive and, worse, boring. On the other hand, "Go, Bush, Go!" comments are always welcome, no matter how inarticulate, repetitive and boring.
<snip>

So why are you posting this horse manure on DU?

[John_H]

12. Freepers always have a keen sense of the obvious.

I do find it troubling that even teeth-dropping freepers and boneheads like Kaus are able to recognize what some dean supporters cannot.

[chaska]

13. Freeepers have a keen sense of the obvious, and...

apparently Deanies can't read. This is from a right-wing sight that is calling for pugs to give money to the Kerry and Edwards campaigns in order to stop Clark, who they see as the only electable candidate.

The subject line is a quote from the site (not from me), and is relatively unimportant to the subject of this thread.

Lastly, in denying that Dean is McGovern Deanies are missing the point. Dean is like McGovern in that he has a rabid following and will lose. That is the important point the comparison is meant to convey.

[Guaranteed]

14. You're just scared of the Republicans.

It doesn't matter what they think. Most of them don't know a damned thing about Dean, and you're giving them way too much credit. You think they're smarter than you/us or something?

[Julien Sorel]

15. I certainly think they're doing a better job

of thinking than the average Deanite. Whether that makes them 'smarter' I'll leave to you to decide.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Julien Sorel]

17. And you suffer from Pruner syndrome.

Far, far worse. It's marked by incessantly started meaningless, and in many cases out and out false, threads, and the inability to make an argument beyond an occassional profanity and the posting of a GIF. I'd see someone about that if I were you -- you are beginning to become evidence that marijuana use is harmful to cognitive function.

[pruner]

19. LOL

[FDRrocks]

20. I do not like Dean really...

but the only thing that holds me to Clark is his "General" tag. I think he might be another Eisenhower. Nothing else.

(disclaimer: I am a kooky ass liberal, Kucinich supporter)

I do not give a shit if Clark may win. I am all about voting my conscious... and if many other informed people would vote thier conscious this world would be a better place. I would vote Dean well before I would vote Clark.

If you want a McGovern... it's Dennis. He is so BAD, the media hates him. He threatens the vicious cycle we are in. He might save the world. To me, it's sad that people say Kucinich isn't electable. People are just lazy. They just don't want change. They want to vote next year and sit on thier couch. They don't want to spread the word.

Dennis has it. He is the REAL alternative. Clark... well he is a shaky ass candidate for hawks (people who consider war anything other than a last resort, as my personal definition describes). If Democrats would work... we could have Dennis. Of course Democrats are now swing voters, no solid ground... which is why I lean Green.

[LiberalBushFan]

21. Dean is not like McGovern

Dammit! McGovern's name has a 'c', so if anything Clark is like McGovern!

Reminds me of the thing from the right-wing debate dictionary, about how Republicans never get the point of analogies in a debate:
"Iraq is not like Vietnam! Iraq is in the Middle East!"

[Julien Sorel]

23. LOL

Reminds me of the thing from the right-wing debate dictionary, about how Republicans never get the point of analogies in a debate:
"Iraq is not like Vietnam! Iraq is in the Middle East!"

[Tharesa]

24. ahhh yes, the best laid plans of mice and men.

That's a nice little election scenerio you have there. But Tharesa has never voted in an election that was anything like the election before.

Carpe diem, propter tempus fugit!

[chaska]

27. blatant kicking violation