Is it me? Or is Clark coming on like dynamite!

[Merlin]

I've been watching his speeches on CSPAN over the past week, and he is spontaneous, dynamic, focused, feisty and exciting.

I'm watching his FL speech today now. His indictment of Bush is devastating. I'm used to political rhetoric. But I get tears in my eyes when he does that thing where he goes up and holds onto the flag and talks about how he served it and so many others did, too, and how American soldiers are buried under it, and how it doesn't belong to Bush and Cheyney and Rumsfeld and Ashcroft--it belongs to all of us.

He's still a little plodding. But man has he improved.

I have said for months now it will be Dean/Clark or Clark/Dean. For the first time now, I'm beginning to thing Clark may be the right guy for the top of the ticket. I can definitely envision him beating the pants off this fascist administration.

Go Wes!

[Pastiche423]

1. It's just you

And please, don't say his name in the same sentence as Dean's.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pastiche423]

12. I am not on clark's side

front or back.

Grow up? Me? Never!

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pastiche423]

25. I capitalize names out of respect

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Renew Deal]

45. How

will you earn the respect you so covet?

[Pastiche423]

52. I don't "covet" anything

[Myra]

129. Same here pastiche423...

eom

[dajabr]

130. LOL!

Good one, myra.

[Myra]

134. Thanks dajabr!

Er, you mean Myra or myra?
...
Whatever; it won't harsh my happy.

[neuvocat]

132. Yeah, no shit.

Its not like any of your criticisms of Clark have much credence any more. You know, I don't go around bashing other candidates based on RW half-truths and self-imposed innuendo but if that's your thing, you go ahead and do that while everyone else puts you on ignore and you can just go ahead and play around in the filth that you post all day long.

[Pastiche423]

133. The list

of the reasons I do not like clark, are all factual.

If you think of them as filth, that says a lot about your candidate, eh?

[creativelcro]

67. It's just you, really

[ginchinchili]

110. Clark Is Proving To Be Better Campaigner

I think he's/she's right. Clark is coming on strong and Dean seems to be getting caught up in his own cobwebs. There's the issue involving his records as governor being lock away and his changing response to it. There's the confederate flag flap. There's the story about his getting out of the draft due to back problems then spending the year skiing while other Americans, like Wes Clark, were risking their lives in Viet Nam. Like Bush he comes from a privileged background and used to be a party boy including drug use. And he seems to continually leave himself open to criticism because of things he says. Rove is salivating.

[ibegurpard]

128. great use of talking points

:toast:

[Clark Can WIN]

158. Sucks when somebody brings up that pesky

truth, doesn't it.

[pruner]

3. LOL

:yourock:

[katusha]

6. and why

should he not mention clark's name in the same sentence as dean's?

[WillyBrandt]

21. Thou shalt not take Dean's name in vain

Haven't you read the Clark-hater's Bible? It's standard issue among many at DU.

[Barbara917]

108. naughty, naughty Katusha

:yourock:

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pastiche423]

16. Kiddo, I got over myself

a long time ago.

My statement was not a "or else". And I did say please.

[Shakespeare]

18. ROFL!

I got over myself a long time ago.

Riiiiiight.

[Renew Deal]

42. Now is that nice?

c'mon, you want to censor people on here now?

[Pastiche423]

49. How did I censor anyone?

I made a polite request.

[Renew Deal]

50. You have no right to make that request

and you make the person feel bad about posting. It's just not nice. I have been rude about candidates before, but I never ever intended to hurt someones feelings.

[Pastiche423]

60. I have every right

to request anything I like. As does the poster to deny my request.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pastiche423]

63. Is clark all things military?

[Kosmos Mariner]

70. it seems that to you he is....

the majority of your posts tend to create a caricature of a blood thirsty Napolean from the evil industrial military complex....so yes, it seems that in your mind Clark is all military..


:dem:

[Pastiche423]

80. You "seemed" wrong

There are a myriad of reasons I do not like clark.

Such as...

Did not become a democrat until October 17, 2003
Supported and praised the SOA
After being fired from the military, he worked for Stephens Corp
He lobbied for Acxiom, to give the Defense greater invasion of our privacy
He praised whistle ass et al as recent as May 2003
He likes and would like to work w/PNACers again
He voted for Nixon, Reagan - Twice!, and poppy
He is for de-regualtion
He is in favor of amending our 1st Amendment
He is in favor of sending our s/w to India
He likes to wrap himself in the flag, ala the RW (playing to their rules)
He dropped DU and cluster bombs on innocent men, women and children
He was for IWR (if the repugs would have let him execute the invasion his way), he was against IWR
“I would have been a Republican,” Clark told them, “if Karl Rove had returned my phone calls.”

[Clark Can WIN]

127. What realistic, front running Dems would you vote for?

Do tell, or are none of the top Dems good enough for U?

[Pastiche423]

131. I would vote for

Dean
Kucinich
CMB
Sharpton

All four of them are Democrats.

[jumptheshadow]

139. So I ask this question again

Where does Dean stand on the First Amendment? Why hasn't he come out and issued a passionate rebuttal to Clark? You haven't answered this question how many times? Why? Because you don't deal in facts? Yep, that would probably be it.

On edit: You never answer the question but always include Clark's flag desecration stand on your laundry list of complaints. That speaks to the truth of your complaints.

[Field Of Dreams]

4. In the words of Ed McMahon...

as spoken to Johnny Carson ... "You are correct, sir!"

[dajabr]

5. Did you tear up when Dean was doing the flag thing last summer?

It was very powerful, I can see why Clark would "borrow" it.

[Renew Deal]

48. Borrow it?

C'mon What are you implying? Besides that, they have all borrowed from eachother liberally. Every hear Dean say "Bait and switch"? They are 9 dems. There are going to be some similarities.

[dajabr]

51. I'm not implying anything...

I'm saying it was very powerful when Dean did it all Summer and I can't blame Clark for using it as well.

That's why I wrote "BORROW" and not "STEAL."

[Julien Sorel]

81. Assuming Dean did do this,

do you think he was the first person in history to do so? Are you folks really that short-sighted?

[dajabr]

91. You're right...

Clark must have been inspired by a fine American Patriot from the 18th Century - not Dean doing it a handful of months ago. My bad...

[Julien Sorel]

100. Bush I did something similar. Did Dean steal it from him,

along with his desire to raise taxes? Ever hear the phrase 'Wrapping yourself in the American flag' before? I'd still like to see what Dean did. Something tells me it wasn't the same thing that Clark is doing, although, of course, I don't mean to imply that a Deanite's word shouldn't be taken at face value.

Breaking news: Clark uses the word 'the' 23 times in speech; Dean supporters cry 'Thief!!'

[dajabr]

103. Maybe you were just busy this Summer?

Drafting a disillusioned Republican? Makes sense now that Clark got it from Bush I, thanks for reminding me.

[Julien Sorel]

106. In other words, you have nothing

constructive to say. So much for stealing from the great Howard Dean.

[dajabr]

118. I said my piece...

I'm guessing you don't like it?

:nopity:

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LiberalBushFan]

79. dean did it first again

first to hold the flag i'm sure, he should copyright it
do you want to beat bush or protect your "novel" bush-bashing techniques from other candidates? obviously the second

[dajabr]

94. Gee, a touchy, thin skinned Clarkie...

What a suprise.

[Clark Can WIN]

160. Gee, a Deaniac

That worships Dean so totally and completely that they actually believe that every word, every phrase known to modern man originated with Howard Dean.

What a suprise.

[arewethereyet]

7. I don't honestly see that occurring

seems about the same as usual over the last 7-8 weeks

[meow mix]

8. not just you

and he is dynamite.
thank goodness!!!
and its nice to have excellent hope for beating bush.

TY MISTER CLARK! GET IM!!

[Red_Storm]

13. i've been watching the replay tonight and..........

Clark was impressive........"i'm not a politician, i'm a soldier.....and my words will mean something".......

[meow mix]

17. and

"i wont be choppin cedar for a month, ill be doing the job the american people expect me to do"

somethin like that
haha

[Justice]

41. Chopping Cedar Line Was The Best

Clark can slip in the lines - bam!

"won't be chopping cedar for 30 days in August." (bush's brush cutting vacations) I'll be doing what American people expect their President to do.

[Bread and Circus]

148. Awesome on Clark's part....a reference to Bush's 30 day...

vacation the month prior to September 11th....


And for all the Deanies here who just can't stand to think
Clark might actually be doing well......raspberries to you and
I am calling shenanigans upon you.... :P

[Boo Boo]

156. Yes he can!

There's a movie clip on his site, where he's riding in a car while talking on his cell phone. He's saying to someone on the other end, "Look, I'm not here to bash George Bush. No. No. Look. He's just an unlearned, and inexperienced man, and he's doing the best he can."

Ouch. I'm not going to bash the guy. I'm just going call him a simpleton and a failure. See what a nice fellow I am?

He also does this thing; I saw it referred to in an article as "internalizing his enemy." He studies them, and gets inside their head. Apparently, this manifests itself in a very entertaining way that we will not, in all probability, get to see. He mimics people. Legend has it that he does a killing impersonation of George W. Bush, and it's wickedly funny.

[Clark Can WIN]

161. ohmigod

I would pay very good money to see Wes's impression of Dubya.

[roguevalley]

65. Look how far down it took to get to a pertinent response. Ignore the

thread thieves. Yes, Clark looked damned good. GO CLARK!

[sandnsea]

9. Just watched Florida

The first half was sort of slow, the second half... WOW!!! I had visions of America, united, neighbors talking, no more hate. If he could do that, it'd be worth alot. And it would be pretty tough for some of those right wingers to argue with a General. And when he said all religions have one similar concept, that the more fortunate should help the less fortunate, Democrats live our faith.. YES!!!!! He was great, really great!

[eileen_d]

10. Well, I'm glad it's you!

Hope it's more every day. :)

This Message Is 100% Dean-Free.

[unfrigginreal]

11. Must just be you

I see a lot of Dean people everytime I turn on CSPAN. I even read a report here on DU that we even had a bunch of them cheering for Clark today at the Florida convention.

[chaska]

24. Several of the Deanies heckled General Clark, from what I heard.

Disgraceful. I saw many Deanies sitting on their hands, refusing to applaud the General. I would never not applaud ANY of the Dem speakers.

[Red_Storm]

29. I noticed that too............

during the broadcast in some of the crowd shots you could see some of Dean's supporters with their arms folded as others in the crowd applauded Clark.........

[unfrigginreal]

36. Well, what should we believe

Here's a first hand account, care to share yours?


All the deanies there clapped and cheered as Clark slammed Bush* and spoke of the administrations missed opportunities and lies, and they cheered and shouted their approval as Clark laid out his plans and policies for a better America. Imagine that! A room full of Dean supporters cheering for clark and saying to one another “he’s good! I’d vote for him”!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=841651

[Pastiche423]

39. I vote for the 1st hand account

[slinkerwink]

53. me too!!!

[SahaleArm]

104. Dean corners the market on 'me too' supporters

:puke:

[slinkerwink]

117. ahhh, so now it's personal attacks on dean supporters for

saying that a first-person story should be listened to instead of this muck-raking about how Clark was received at the reception?

[jumptheshadow]

140. Let's go to the videotape

It will be pretty obvious what happened. They did have the class to applaud when Clark talked about dead soldiers. So there is hope that there is some inner decency in there somewhere.

[Bread and Circus]

149. Yeah, when Dean did his thing in a bar in Detroit....

I howled clapped and yelled for joy....

And when Clark did the same, the Deanies there clapped and
howled for him.

It was really fun...too bad it gets so ugly.

[in_cog_ni_to]

15. I just finished watching him

for the 2nd time today and the man is unbelieveable! He can certainly beat the pants off of the shrub. He has the best chance of any candidate to do it. He was so emotional and he almost cried 3 times. When a man has emotions like that, you KNOW it's REAL. I said this earlier, he means what he says and he says what he means and he oozes sincerity. He will be an extraordinary President!

[meow mix]

23. i knoooow!

thank you wes, for existing =)
now go squash goergie!!!

[in_cog_ni_to]

30. Wes makes me SMILE.

He makes me feel good about our country again. And I KNOW he will give everything he has to run this country. NO doubt in my mind. He's so awesome.

[slinkerwink]

19. wait until Dean comes up

;-)

[chaska]

27. Dean's a rabble rouser.

Effective with those who like their red meat on the rare side. I prefer Clark, who appeals to my head and my heart, not my anger.

[MoonRiver]

22. It's definitely not just you. The General is doing incredibly!

I still believe that in the end he'll be our nominee.

Go Wes!!!!!

:kick:

[imhotep]

28. He should run for mayor

or congress first.

Want a soldier? Kerry has that plus political experience.
Want a Bush basher? Dean has that plus governing experience.
Want a empty suit with good looks? Edwards has that plus politcal experience.
Want a DLC puppet? Lieberman has that plus political experience.
Want an outsider? tough shit they are all corrupt.

Clark brings nothing to the table.

[WillyBrandt]

31. "Clark brings nothing to the table."

Want a soldier?
Want a Bush basher?
Want good looks?
Want an outsider?
Want a southerner?
Want a scholar?

Would you like them all in one package?

Yes, Clark brings nothing to the table--so long as you exclude, you know, everything.

[in_cog_ni_to]

34. Maybe if you took some time to read something he offers?

http://clark04.com/issues/

[Field Of Dreams]

35. Clark is the table...

and Bush is the empty plate that will soon be cleared away.

Dismissed, George.

[Red_Storm]

37. "Clark brings nothing to the table"

see, that's the type of shit that ruins candidate discussion threads.........

[eileen_d]

96. Speaking of bringing nothing to the table...

[FrenchieCat]

32. The man is capable...

and ready to go. Wes was honest when he waited so long to get into the race. He only did that once he was convinced that the other candidates just wouldn't be able to pull it off. That's it in a nut shell. He has become a better politician.....but still is natural...still ain't pandering....and still ain' LYING on other Democrats (like those who do even today, but shall remain nameless out of respect for his supporters).

He's an honest man.....a self made honest man....no silver spoon in his mouth! yet look at what he has accomplished!

Now that's what I call impressive! A real doer!

He is now talking the talk...but he has already walked the walk!

[Eloriel]

33. Answer: It's you

I get trears in my eyes because he basically stole that routine from Dean. I thought his rendition today ws particularly inept, but glad it turned you on.

Eloriel

[WillyBrandt]

38. He also stole all those lines about being a soldier from Dean

It's is impossible that any other politician except Howard Dean did something original. And since it is not original, it must therefore have be stolen from Dean.

I mean, there is simply no other way.

The following things were never done before Dean:

- Riling up a crowd
- Speaking of the value of dissent
- Bashing the Republicans
- Reclaiming the flag
- Raising your voice

Don't you know that Dean is the Alpha and Omega of American politics?

[Julien Sorel]

40. You used to claim he stole his economic and

healthcare plans from Dean, too. Of course it turns out they both got it from the DLC.

When I see where Dean invented this, when he did anything like it before, then I'll believe it was stolen.

When Dean did this bit, did he chant 'You have the power' to the flag?

[Justice]

46. Inept

is what these endless mindless posts are.

[in_cog_ni_to]

54. Clark is the man who

actually fought under that flag for this country, he watched soldiers buried under that flag and he saluted that flag when he was serving in the military. If ANYONE has the right to "use that routine" it's General Clark and John Kerry who actually went to war and fought, were injured and came home on stretchers. If you couldn't see the sincerity in that man today, then you must be blind. Ya, the SINCERITY of it brought a tear to my eye. It was more touching than someone using it for nothing more than a stump speech.

[php1949]

147. I sure do agree

My post was similar. He did bring a tear to my eye and he can beat the deserter by a landslide. I do like Dean and Kucinich, but Clark can win easily.

[roguevalley]

I want to live in a country where anyone and everyone can run for the

office of their choice. I find it awful to read some
of this, both against Clark and Dean. Its unAmerican
somehow, less than American to eat someone like this.
I didn't believe Bush deserved to be President, the
bastard, and he lost. It took stealing the election
for him to win.

Anyone can run. You may not like it but they can. No
one who wants to eat this kind of shit should be
faulted for running. The hard part is winning. I think
Clark can win and Dean. My heart is with Clark. But I
won't spike a Deanie. Its too damned Republican a
behavior for me to stomach.

Yes, Dean did good. They all did.

[Clark Can WIN]

163. Eloriel I'm glad that you admit

That coming our of Dean, it's just a routine. Nothing more.


From Clark, it means something. Clark has the crediblility to speak to these issues, since he didn't have a back problem and then go skiing for a year.

[Closer]

43. It's just you

[WillyBrandt]

44. Correction, it's just you, people like you, and people not like you

[Renew Deal]

61. Like an abyss of wisdom

Thanks

[meow mix]

47. see, you can tell..

from the response of the dean supporters
(of which i was too, untill there was CLARK!)
they are feelin it and reacting =)

so the harshness from them - seems pretty natural and ok.

[Red_Storm]

55. do they realize..........

that they're really turning people off......... people that are following Dean's campaign( i'm one of them but i'm also following Clark's)......it's really starting to change my mind about Dean and his campaign......

[in_cog_ni_to]

69. I'll tell you this.

I was a Dean supporter until Clark came on the scene and that man WILL NOT get one more penny of my money and not one more minute of my time if he's the nominee. He can thank his DU supporters for that. He MIGHT get my vote, I haven't decided yet...probably not. His supporters have become rabid. Dean supporters were the ONLY supporters in Florida today to heckle a candidate. Dean supporters harass Clark supporters who are out campaigning for Clark. They are no better than KKKRove and the RWers. In fact, I say they are worse because they are attacking a fellow Democrat/Democrats. Howard Dean was the ONLY candidate to take the LOW ROAD in his Florida speech today and attacked the other candidates...no other candidate did that today. Every other candidate took the HIGH road with a POSITIVE message, but NOT Dean. He just had to get his jabs in at all the other candidates.

I am so glad I am not his supporter anymore. I would be embarrassed. If I were you, I would support a candidate you can respect and has respectable supporters.

[kiahzero]

78. It's not Dean's fault that some of his supporters are asses

Just as it isn't Clark's fault for some of his supporters being asses.

[ibegurpard]

84. I wouldn't get too worked up over that.

Most of it is manufactured outrage they've been handed in their talking points. It was on full display today in the Dean section of the Florida thread.

[Red_Storm]

83. "If I were you, I would support a candidate...........

you can respect and has respectable supporters"



You're right, and i've been following the Dean, Clark and Kucinich campaigns but......i'm getting very close to ending my interest and support for Dean.....for the reasons you mentioned.......

[JNelson6563]

143. you must be joking

Wow, if Dean wins the nom you will not support him other than to vote for him because of some folks on DU pissed you off?

Let me tell you something friend, I have been attacked in some pretty vile ways by Kerry supporters and Clark supporters. I am no mindless basher and try to be fair minded in all my posts. I also try to keep my criticisms diplomatic, when I voice them at all.

Through it all I have remained well aware of the FACT that anyone of our guys would be 100x better than the boy king not just for our country but for the world. But because of a few nobodies on an obscure DB you would stand idly by and not lift a finger to oust the most evil regime to ever be in the WH.

Now that is selfless thinking! Not. Is this the mature and productive behavior you encourage? You seem to want one kind of dialogue and then promise some of the unproductive behavior if things don't go your way.

My my how the egos peek through.

Julie

[in_cog_ni_to]

151. Please don't lecture ME on mature

and productive behavior AND egos. :eyes: I have gone out of my way to be fair in my posts of other candidates. I have made 1 negative comment about Dean and his "Native American" POLICY (not the man) in Vermont. That's it. I have NEVER said anything negative about another candidate. Why are Clark and his supporters not afforded the same courtesy?

What is the title of this thread? "Is it me? or is Clark coming on like dynamite?" If a Dean supporter doesn't agree with that, they needn't click on this thread for the sole purpose of slamming Clark. Say no, and leave. Their malodorous utterances toward the man who is their biggest threat, is doing NOTHING but pushing would be supporters AWAY. In just 1 day...yesterday, 3 people who WERE Dean supporters stated (posted) that they were NOT going to support Dean because of the amaroidal behavior of his supporters. So, it's not just me. There are people who watch this bilge from the Dean supporters and find it offensive. OBVIOUSLY, this is NOT just "some folks on DU" because it has been posted that Dean supporters harass Clark supporters on the streets as they are campaigning for Clark. Dean supporters were the ONLY group to HECKLE General Clark when he gave his speech in Florida. AND, Dean himself, was the ONLY candidate to SLAM the other candidates in his speech in Florida....The other candidates had the INTEGRITY not to do that at a DEMOCRATIC PARTY CONVENTION. NO, it's NOT just DU, but they reinforce the belief that the Dean supporters and Dean himself are out to win at all costs and damned be the Democrat who gets in their way. THAT is why I will not lift a finger to help him. THAT is why I will NOT give him one more penny of my money. AND, THAT is why I am going to think long and hard about whether THAT is the kind of person I want for my president. Dean was my #2 man. He has now made it to the bottom of my list beneath JOE LIEBERMAN. That is bad. Damned right I won't lift a finger to help Dean. By the time his supporters are finished alienating the other candidate's supporters, I won't be alone in that sentiment. Trust me.

I would hardly call DU an OBSCURE MB. It not anymore.

You seem to want one kind of dialogue and then promise some of the unproductive behavior if things don't go your way.

Civility toward fellow Democrats is not a lot to ask. Do you have a problem with that kind of dialoque? You have aimed your lecture at the wrong person. Perhaps you would bode well to aim it at the the guilty faction of Dean supporters who created the vitriolic debate on DU. Just a suggestion.

[JNelson6563]

155. Many assumptions

I have encouraged supporters of all camps to be civil. I have long decried the decline in the level of dialogue. There are many supporters from all camps who are true Democrats and know in their hearts the only way we can beat Team Bush is to unite behind our candidate in the end, and work like hell for him. (I can say "him" as I am sure we can all agree the nom won't go to CMB).

As you are one who tries to stick to civil dialogue I would expect more from you than the posters you cite as precedence for your justification.

I have been called brain-washed, a simpleton, had my sincerity questioned, been lied to and about all by Clark and Kerry supporters. Check out my posts I think you will find I am what you say you are, fair-minded and civil. I would never consider saying I won't support a certain candidate because they have a few asshole supporters and I have as much justification to take such a ridiculous view as anyone.

I think the path we should take is one of discouraging smear tactics. If we remind each other often enough that we need to court the supporters of others because of our great need of unity in the end, maybe, just maybe, senseless smears will fall out of fashion. It won't eliminate them all together, I'm well aware, but those hard-cores will still be wearing last year's fashion and will look (and feel) a bit out of place.

Julie

[jumptheshadow]

141. Bingo

I'm almost convinced that some of these erstwhile Dean supporters are really anti-Dean propagandists. Their constant stream of vitriol casts a harsh light on their candidate. Any new DUers tuning in to get more information about the primary will get a terrible impression of Dean's campaign and supporters. Not to mention the fact that they have alienated large numbers of the Clark and Kerry camps whose support they will need if Dean gets the nomination.

[deminflorida]

56. If there were other candidate supporters sitting on their hands....

it just makes my argument for me. They're children activists, and that's not a bad thing. Anger over GW Bush's policies has brought them out and we as democrats need their support. However, like I posted earlier, lots of the Clark supporters I saw on T.V. today were over 50. So take it to heart, and don't worry about the recent polls that broke this week, activists alone don't win primaries but voters do and the over 50's crowd vote in droves. They are the silent majority of the Democratic Party. I think that Dean supporters are gonna be really let down way before the Democratic National Convention. The ones sitting on their hands today are gonna raise hell about it too.

[in_cog_ni_to]

152. lots of the Clark supporters I saw on T.V. today were over 50.

I couldn't agree more and let us throw in the HUGE Veteran population who will not be thrilled about voting for Dean, for obvious reasons. Our senior population and Veterans will be heard at the polls and it won't be in favor of Dr. Dean.

[Justice]

57. Clark Has Great Momentum

There was a Boston Globe article I posted today recognizing Clark's rising profile in NH. He is really doing well, hitting his stride and shines particularly well in the town meetings.

What is interesting to me here is the number of Dean supporters who felt compelled to go negative on this post. Some threw out old stale slaps - others just tried to be humorous.

I think Clark must be coming on like dynamite because the Dean supporters keep feeling the need to take a shot. If Clark was fading, they'd be fine with letting him go quietly.

[Marines for Clark]

59. Dean supporters belong to an angry cult

[kiahzero]

62. Come on

That's not necessary at all.

[Shakespeare]

66. Neither were posts 1, 5, 11, 12, 25, 28, 33 and 43

Juvenile and vicious. I'm sick of seeing it from Dean supporters, from Clark supporters, from Kerry supporters, and anybody else who feels they can't let a single thread on GD go by without taking a malicious swipe at anybody who isn't their candidate.

People need to grow the F*ck up.

[deminflorida]

O.K. add 64 to your list....

n/t

[Red_Storm]

68. that's what i'm saying..........

Will there ever be a candidate discussion thread without the bullshit negative attacks ?

[Renew Deal]

73. No

because someone will be pissed about the nominee. I can see it now. Clark wins, we will have whining about the democratic party not caring abou the fringe. Dean wins and we will have people bitching that we are doomed.

[unfrigginreal]

76. If Dean wins wouldn't that make you the fringe?

nt

[Julien Sorel]

82. Yasss, just like it made me the fringe when Mondale won.

[ibegurpard]

87. You seem to be confusing "if" with "when"

Do you need a dictionary?

[Renew Deal]

89. You know what I mean

But I will help you anyway. I do not think Dean is a fringe candidate. Others do. If he doesn't win, we will have all the whiners out (which is not 90% of his supporters) saying that the DNC doesn't care about the fringe. Hope this helps, because I have to get back to my sheeple family.

[Woodstock]

86. Shakespeare, I second that

I was just watching each side act like kids to the other here. They seem blind to their own childishness. Each swipes the other, but sees only the other swiping them. Lost in all of this is the issues. Maybe Dean comes off too intense, maybe Clark comes off too vague. So freaking what. They are both better than Bush. I wonder more and more why I even bother to come to this board anymore. It used to be about issues here, now it's "My dog is better than your dog" 6th grade playground stuff. "I won't vote for this guy, because this person said something mean." Good grief.

GROW UP, PEOPLE! This is important. We have an election to win, and either of these men might be the ones who will represent us.

[Shakespeare]

90. I just wonder...

...what some of these people are going to do if/when their candidate isn't the nominee. They have spewed such bile that one wonders how--or if--they'll support whomever the ultimate nominee is.

It's pathetic. It's truly pathetic.

[Renew Deal]

93. I wonder the same thing.

[Renew Deal]

92. This has become

nasty. This is the first time I am disturbed enough to post it in ask the admins. I mean this is a simple nice thread about how well one of our guys is doing and the regulars sweep in and spew their venom.

[ibegurpard]

95. As if you had NOTHING to do with the tone of this board today.

UN FUCKING BELIEVABLE!

[Renew Deal]

97. You are referring to the psycho comment.

I stand by that BTW. But look through my posts. Compliments for DK and Kerry. Passionate responses to misrepresentations by Dean. Helping to track down Satanists. I think overall it is a very good day.

[ibegurpard]

98. Oh very good day.

If your intention was to completely blow out of the water the relative peace that has existed between Clark and Dean supporters on this board until today. Otherwise I'd rate it a big thumbs down.

[chaska]

162. HUH?!?!

"the relative peace that has existed between Clark and Dean supporters"

Where have YOU been?

[unfrigginreal]

64. And Clark supporters are sheeple backing an illusion

nt

[Renew Deal]

71. lol

Great, Thanks

It must be comedy night

[in_cog_ni_to]

74. "And Dean supporters are sheeple backing an illusion" n/t

[meow mix]

75. was a dean sheeple 1st

but now im a clark sheeple instead.
hmm,
i wonder how that works, since sheeps are suppose to stay put and stuff.
(not wander off to other camps)
owell..

[in_cog_ni_to]

85. Baaaaahd Sheeeeeep...le!

:7 from one ex Dean Sheeple to another. Baaaaaaaaaah!

[ibegurpard]

88. Silly

Of course they don't...why do you think they need shepherds?

[mot78]

72. I don't think that's fair to say

Dean's not my first choice, but I think he'd make a great President, and is more electable than people think. Despite the surge in Clark-Dean flame wars over the past two weeks or so, outside of DU, I'd say the mood between Clarkies and Deanies is still very cordial. We tend to have a report with Deanies, probably because we're both dominate the grass roots over * and the other candidates, and because we're sick of DC. politicos. Clark and Dean remind me of Kennedy and LBJ in 1960, and even of Reagan and Bush Sr. in 1980. As a Clarkie, I'm asking that both camps stop the flame fests. Criticism is still okay (I still do it myself against Dean) but it can't be so widespread to the point that it creates an un-reparable rift, which WILL hurt us next year, especially with Nader running again, who's obviously hoping to exploit the anger of the losing camp to use against us.

[deminflorida]

77. I know, I can hear it now.....

IF YOU CAN'T VOTE DEAN, THEN VOTE GREEN.

[JNelson6563]

144. projecting is unhealthy and prevents one

from find the root of their own problems. FYI

[ginchinchili]

101. Clark Surpassing Dean

You're right. Clark is proving to be a more viable candidate, not just a better resume for this election, but he's also proving to be a better campaigner. After all, he's catching up to Dean yet Dean has been campaigning for a lot longer than Clark has. Clark is a natural. Dean is a lightening rod.

[ginchinchili]

99. Clark Is In The Process Of Passing Dean By

It's not just you. Both Dean and Bush are getting worried about Clark. Seems that more and more Democrats are questioning the viability of a Dean candidacy. Some mention Dean by name, others are more apt to name the characteristics that a successful candidate must have to beat Bush and they list qualities that Clark exemplifies and Dean lacks. Clark is coming across, not only as the candidate with the best resume for this election, but as a more focused, more mature, more daunting competitor. I ask myself if I'm maybe projecting a little too unrealistically onto Clark. Maybe my imagination is getting the better of me, but no matter how I look at it, Clark appears to be the best candidate. Period.

[Pastiche423]

102. Is it fun

living in Wonderland?

[SahaleArm]

107. I don't know you tell me.

[ginchinchili]

111. Oh Boy, We Just Can't Risk It With This Man

ROFLMAO Wonderful.

[Pastiche423]

112. I live in reality

as shitty as it is.

[ginchinchili]

119. That's Always a Plus

But Clark is still a more viable candidate than Dean.

[Pastiche423]

122. Why?

It seems the opposite to me in the real world, where there are now over 151,800 Dean meet ups, compared to clark's 48,900. Dean is ahead in Iowa, NH and S.C. and there is no comparison in their internet fundraising campaigns.

[Kosmos Mariner]

120. Pastiche.....

You are always so bright and cheery...little Miss Sunshine... :wtf:


:dem:

[Pastiche423]

124. Nope

[Kosmos Mariner]

125. Just for you Pastiche...

Hope this smiling face cheers you up. :-)





:dem:

[Pastiche423]

126. It din't cheer me up

But thank you all the same.

I want a Democratic president.

[in_cog_ni_to]

154. hehehehe!

:7

[Clark Can WIN]

167. That is one scary mfking photo eom

[Justice]

109. Momentum Is There

for Clark. The only question is whether he has enough time.

Dean people are worried about Clark. Worried enough to spend lots of time slamming Clark versus telling people about Dean.

[Pastiche423]

114. I don't speak out about clark

because of my candidate. I talk out about him because I do not want him to be president.

[ginchinchili]

115. Increasingly Concerned About Dean

I think we're about to see all the top candidates going after Clark, but it won't be easy. You'll start to see more attacks on Fox, Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, etc. The good news is that Clark will weather the storm. He's pulled out his baggage and laid it out for all to see at the start of his campaign. It's hard to hit the guy on anything new. Also, more and more Democrats--Congressmen, Senators, party officials--will be endorsing Clark because Dems are growing increasingly concerned about Dean.

[Merlin]

116. Good post, ginchinchili. n/t

.

[php1949]

150. Dean would be a better president, however....

If Clark gets the nomination and selects a good running mate (preferably a southerner), there aren't enough corrupt supreme court justices in the world to overcome the landslide that will occur. Clark could take every state, including Texas.

[Merlin]

113. The word is "Mature". That's what differentiates him from Howard.

I love Dean. But Cousin Howard (I say that because I'm a Dean) has got to learn to slow down his speech patterns, pace himself, stop being a cheerleader at the end of each speech, and start behaving more presidentially. He's already roused the rabble. Now he has to reach the people.

Howard also absolutely must present--in each speech--a firm, powerful vision for national defense and a way out of Iraq, as Clark does.

Clark does not have Dean's fire. But his message is potent and eloquent. He has an excellent speech writer. He paces himself, so that the average person--not just the intellectual--can hear and understand his words. His posture on defense is impeccable. And he comes off as the lone adult in the entire pack, imo.

[ginchinchili]

121. The Contrast Is Becoming Clearer And Clark Wins

You're absolutely right, Merlin. As more and more people start paying attention the contrast between Clark and Dean is becoming increasingly clear, and Clark comes out on top.

[Merlin]

123. Don't get me wrong. I love Howard. But I want to crush Bush.

If Dean doesn't come back to earth and reshape his image and message in line with what the people who are now paying attention to him want to hear, then he's not going to win this thing.

No matter what happens, these two guys MUST be on the same ticket. That's critical, imo, for the party.

[BootinUp]

153. One additional thought

I would be surprised if Clark was the not the primary author of his speeches, this guy is very good at putting his message together and getting it across as can be seen in videos going back to June/July, or on C-Span town hall meetings very early in his campaign.

[chaska]

164. "He has an excellent speech writer."

Yes, himself. Clark writes his own speeches. He worked as a speech writer for various generals while in the army.

[Myra]

135. Is it me? Or is Clark coming on like dynamite!

Just thought we should come full circle.

Go Wes!

[jumptheshadow]

142. LOL

Somebody manages to keep her sense of humor during a political campaign!

[0rganism]

136. Stating the obvious -- someday the primaries will be over

It's one thing to appreciate what one candidate has over another, but it's something else again to reflexively badmouth various candidates as I see in all-too-many threads.

Listen up bashers! You might be voting for Clark or Dean now, but in all likelihood, only one of them is running for the presidency next November.

And guess what? Chances are, they'll moderate the rhetoric considerably when it comes to woo-ing the god-like Swing Voters. It's fun to be radical now, but even bush* managed to pass himself off as a centrist during the 2000 elections. All this talk of "(Clark/Dean) is not a real Democrat" is going to mysteriously transform itself into a compliment when it comes down to the wire.

Merlin, I'm glad that we have candidates who can give an energizing speech. It's going to be real hard to motivate the voters against a wave of media-reinforced apathy and bush worship next year, while swimming upstream against a current of mandatory compromises. Solid speechifying is going to go a long way.

[Myra]

137. You make a very good point 0rganism, you really do.

But this sequence just cracked me up:

"Solid speechifying is going to go a long way."

"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn"
(Sig line.)

}(

[Speed8098]

138. For a minute there........

I thought I was on a different board.


This entire thread is disgusting.

We are Democrats people. Did you forget??? The goal is to get * out of our White House.

Those of you that choose to bash ANY of the possible nominees should be ashamed of yourself. They are out there trying to get the Democratic message to the people, and all you can do is play the "My candidate's better than your candidate" game. What, are we the party of the immature?

Grow up and get behind ALL of the candidates. One of them will surely take down the facist regime that stole the office in 2000.

GOTV and get the government back into the hands of the people, where it belongs.

[php1949]

145. Clark brought a tear to my eye

Clark was great on the CSPAN speech in Florida. He is the only candidate with passion in his eyes. I have to tell you, he brought a tear to my eye when he brought the flag out and yelled that it is flag.

[Cheswick2.0]

146. I was very anti Clark at first

The astroturf that hit the board when he first announced made me recoil. I was very leary of his politics and frankly, no matter what, to me no one is Al Gore. I resented that Clark was so late in life deciding to be a democrat when I had been one for my whole life. He may still be to centrist for me......

However he is slowly winning me over and let me tell you that is not an easy win.

[WillyBrandt]

157. Are you a leading indicator?

If Clark is slowly winning you over, then things are going well.

As an aside, Clark sounds like a centrist, but has liberal positions on the issues. Dean sounds like a liberal, but has centrist positions and a centrist history.

With the first we get an election victory and progressive policies thereafter.

With the second, we get a lower chance of victory in the election, and more middling policies thereafter.

(Note: They are both quirky politicians, with Dean being an NRA darling, and Clark supporting the horrible flag burning Amendment. But the stakes are so high you have to look at the whole candidate, for both of them)

[Mattforclark]

159. precisely

"With the first we get an election victory and progressive policies thereafter.

With the second, we get a lower chance of victory in the election, and more middling policies thereafter."

[depakid]

165. How do all know that?

Clark doesn't have any real position papers out and he doesn't have any poliical record to look at. Now, I like Clark just fine- I'm hoping he's my VP, but I gotta tell you, he makes some people a little nervous and I haven't got very much evidence to defend him. Nor, I suspect do any of you, other than intuition and the "conventional wisdom." Maybe that's why so many Clark supporters feel the need to constantly berate or misrepresent Dean.

[in_cog_ni_to]

168. Want some position papers? Here ya go.

http://clark04.com/issues/ His statements on the issues.

Here's a link to the web site.
http://www.americansforclark.com/

[depakid]

171. You see, that's what I mean

Those aren't position papers- those are little barebones essays. I already read 'em all and they don't say jack in any detail. This is where I get pinned down. Obviously, it's over 6 months til next summer, but people who are skeptical of Gen. Clark' sprgressive credentials need a lot more to go on than that.

[WillyBrandt]

169. The political winds blow contrary

Unless you have an illegitimate regime--like the one we have now--there is pressure to go against the wind, especially with the nation as divided as it is now.

Dean, already tagged as the flaming liberal by the press, has the political pressure to be more centrist when in power. (You often hear his supporters say quite passionately that he is not a liberal--which is true.)

Clark, if anything, is tagged as the anti-Dean; even some Democrats worry that he is too centrist. This is perfect. First, it's great for the General Election (Bush, you remember, ran in the center). Second, it gives Clark political cover to enact liberal policies: people worry about a left-winger going liberal, but since it doesn't conform to the "centrist" Clark stereotype, the stupid press is not likely to weave that into the narrative. Third, the political pressures, should they exist, will NOT come from the Right or the Center... they will come from (guess who) liberal Democrats, who want him to validate his Democratness and his liberalism.

And what is this: "Clark doesn't have any real position papers out". He has a ton out! This is demonstrably false. Where'd you get that? Just go to his website.

We've got nothing but conventional wisdom? Pffaw! The point is that the conventional wisdom regarding Clark is wrong, and works towards Clark's (and liberals' advantage). The CW regarding Dean is also wrong, and unfortunately, it works against Dean's prospects in the General and afterwards.

And I don't remember having bashed Dean for quite a while--weeks, I think. What were you referring to?

[Cheswick2.0]

166. I don't know about indicator, but.......

I do know that I am a great deal more liberal than either Dean or Clark and I assume that either would disapoint me on some issues. That is okay, I expect it. However impressions mean a lot to me. The impression I have of Clark right now is favorable. I will see what happens between now and the Pa primary.

[Clark Can WIN]

170. Welcome to the CLARK side............Cheswick

It may cheer you somewhat to know that Clark is the candidate who speaks the most about the election being stolen and ursurped. I've not heard the others openly and repeatedly speak about the travesty of justice that begat this pResidents regime.

[BootinUp]

172. I love it when

he talks about the mob banging on the doors to stop the vote counters and says something like if this was happening in another country how we would all be up in arms...


warning highly paraphrased!

[Moderator]

173. I am locking this thread.

It is inflammatory and has many personal attacks in it.


DU Moderator