How good was Dean in FL?

[mrgorth]

I missed it. Do you really think FL is in play? I don't think Jeb would let it go D.

[opihimoimoi]

1. Dean was White HOT

I caught his speech, thought it was more than OK, it was inspirational and motivating. Even invigorating.

[Myra]

2. Two separate questions, so two separate answers.

1-Dean was very good.
2-Florida is ground zero for vote fraud; I doubt
Jeb won legit in 2002. So I don't know how the Dems
can battle that.

Guess we just have to do what we can to fight for
clean elections. Help BBV etc.

[JCMach1]

3. I think JEB actually did win, but I also agree that the fix

may have been in as well-- hence JEBtm's landslide victory.

Florida will be in play come election day 2004-- I will probably live to regret those words... I did last time.

I remember telling my government classes in 2000 that whoever won Florida would be the next President (right before election day). I have been regretting those words ever since.

[jab105]

38. Jeb did win...

McBride had no answers, and Jeb creamed him in the debate...

But Jeb hopefully has been pissing people off too much...

[chimpymustgo]

4. Dean was smug, arrogant, attacking, snide. The usual.

And when he started calling out the other candidates, and LYING about Clark - that was the very last straw.

Dean is a dangerous demogogue. I do believe more people are waking up, and I pray he will not get the nomination. Dean will not appeal to middle America, or lefties like me and many others who see through his bs.

Thank God we do have wonderful candidates - Edwards, Clark, Kerry who can take us to victory.

[Jack_Dawson]

5. Dean will be an absolute disaster

I really wish people would wake the fuck up. The democrats are going over a cliff by supporting this guy. He's an expert in foreign affairs because he's "traveled a lot" and "lives near Canada." Then in the same show he makes several references to "the Soviet Union" and plus, he's such a LIAR about Clark.

Do you see Clark disparaging the other candidates? I don't. Other people are getting desperate, and Clark keeps coming on stronger. Hey but if you want four more years of Bush, by all means vote for Dean in the primaries.

There is a reason the right wing media loves this guy. WAKE UP!

[Hep]

7. SO when will Clark grow some balls?

Is he just saving it for Bush? He looks kinda warm and fuzzy. The only thing worse than engaging in mud slinging is avoiding it.

[Jack_Dawson]

9. "I will not attack fellow Democrats"

But he's been raking Bush over the coals. Clark's a warrior...the only difference is, he doesn't believe in the circular firing squad like most of DU does.

[Hep]

10. Riiiiiiight

He didn't throw any shots at Kerry over the past week or so, did he? Must be nice to just remember what you want to.

[Jack_Dawson]

11. I didn't see any

What did he say? The only thing I saw was Kerry crying on Hardball about how The General stole his ideas for a commercial.

Dude, this is America and if you want to vote for Dean, vote for Dean. All I'm saying is that voting for Dean is exactly what chimpy wants you to do.

[Hep]

14. OOoooooooooooh!

And I base all of my actions on what chimpy wants me to do.

You play the republican game, that's fine. Let them manipulate you. Our campaign is a freight train, and it doesn't stop for the chimp.

Like I said, it must be nice to only pay attention to that which supports your views. Some of us are cursed with objectivity.

"We liked it better when Senator Kerry was calling Baker's Florida operation 'thuggism.' If Kerry wants a former Secretary of State who headed a recount effort in Florida, let's stay away from political thugs and go with Warren Christopher."

Clark campaign attacking Kerry for his "fondness of James Baker"

[Jack_Dawson]

18. Poor misguided soul

Yes, Dean's campaign is "a freight train". You know why? Because the right-wing media keeps saying it is. The same media that keeps ignoring Clark but Clark will probably raise more money than Dean this quarter.

Look I know you have your heart in the right place, and we can both agree chimpy has to go. All I'm saying is...you're being a little naive if you think there's a reason people like Tucker Carlson and Robert Novak keep propping up Dean. I mean it's so laughably obvious to any real thinkers. C'mon man, it's not too late.

As for Clark, well...it wasn't a personal attack on Kerry, just a policy dispute. James Baker helped steal the election in 2000, remember?

[Hep]

20. LOL

Yeah, it's because the media says it is. That's right. We don't really have the most active supporters or the most money by far. We haven't really gone from a statistical dot to the fronrunning campaign. It's all a myth, propped up by the eeeeeevil right wing media. Keep telling yourself that.

So you're saying that Tucker Carlson was propping up dean when he predicted MONTHS ago that Dean would be out of the race in two weeks? Interesting method of propping him up, don't you think?

Look, I think I might have the more developed understanding of the media's role in this primary season. Allow me to share it with you. The media isn't propping anyone up. They see Dean as the news of the moment, which he earned by shooting through the polls. You can't deny that his campaign has been newsworthy. The right wing is on all sides of it. They're attacking him one minute and propping him up the next minute. They're trying to confuse you so that you just won't have anything to do with him. The thing is this. The right wing and the media are irrelevant. The less you pay attention to what they're doing, the more focused you can be in support of your guy. That's all there is to it. Don't worry about what the other team is saying in it's huddle. Go out there and execute your gameplan. And we're doing fine.

And please allow me to point out that moving goalposts are annoying. Setting the bar differently for your candidate than you do for others is just bad policy. Clark took a shot at Kerry. It wsn't a big deal, but it was a backhand. Clark is a fine candidate. I just think his "above the fray" shit is weak. It's a strategy. He could have just as easily chosen another. But as the last to enter the race, he had the luxury of having more options to choose from strategically. If you don't get the way language was used in his criticism of Kerry, it's cool. But the slam was there.

[AP]

31. Do you realize how much credibility your 3rd paragraph loses for you?

?

[Hep]

35. None

But thanks for paying attention.

[Selwynn]

48. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard

"The only thing worse than engaging in mud slinging is avoiding it"

Brilliant :rollseyes:

[Patriot_Spear]

8. Yes, Clark will make an excellent VP.

:evilgrin:

[MIMStigator]

50. Dean was only one to go on the attack

Dean can't win.

[GOPFighter]

54. Clark doesn't have to disparage his opponents...

...he's letting his supporters do it for him! That way he keeps his hands clean.

So I guess we can assume you will not support Dean if he is our nominee???

[dansolo]

57. And Clark is an expert on domestic issues, how?

Being a president involves a lot more than foreign policy. I very much admire and respect Gen. Clark, and I would like to see him in the next administration, but this tripe about foreign policy experience being the only important matter for president is rediculous. Dean and Clark have complementary strengths and weaknesses, and I believe for us to not only win the election *AND* fix this country afterwards, we need them both.

[Hep]

6. So you're saying you won't vote for him?

Interesting.

[adadem]

13. Absolutely right

"Dean was smug, arrogant, attacking, snide. The usual."

I've been turning off the tv when Dean is on...reminds
me of the playground bully. He started out good but
these last 4 to 5 months Dean has become unbearable
to us. Husband said he visualized Charlton Heston
standing next to Dean with the rifle raised in the air.

[Hep]

15. uh huh

You'll learn a lot about him by ignoring him. Good to know you've taken the time to remain objective!

LOL! The bashers are up early today!

[pruner]

17. I'm sure the bashers will be out in full force today

every media account says Dean rocked the house and clearly has the biggest & best organzation in Florida.

anyone who watched the convention knows that's true.

:spank:

[creativelcro]

25. YUP, last time they flooded DU was jus right after the last debate.

Poor little insecure things in need of a savior...

[TSIAS]

58. Dean was organized in FL

I was there, and Dean did the best job of getting his supporters to the event. Clark was a pretty solid second. Dean looked to have about 1/3 of the delegates, but Wes wasn't too far behind.

[Closer]

53. And they're all

mainly "newbies" AND Clarkettes, have ya noticed? ;-)

I guess they think we're idiots. LOL

Thanks for putting up the Dean Defense today Hep.

[Kahuna]

19. He was all of that. I had to turn him on. His angry snarl...

was a definate turnoff.

[Hep]

21. ITYM "off"

Unless you mean you want to turn him on, in which case he's married.

[adadem]

23. Had to, too

Of late I've been turning off the tv or changing the channel everytime Dean comes on. He needs a new schtick....this bully
on the playground stuff is getting old.

[Hep]

24. Maybe you just started paying attention too early

n/t

[CTLawGuy]

29. so are you saying Clark...

DIDN'T recommend that Katrina Swett vote FOR the war??

Dean was responding to the many attacks on his "qualificiations" to be a foreign policy leader. he simply said, if your FP experience led you to vote for this disaster of a war, maybe you need differnt experience.

[FrenchieCat]

32. I dont' think that Clark supported what was passed

any more than Dean, who supported the Lugar amendment. So Dean is lying about the resolution support. Because Dean basically is in the same court that Clark is in. But Dean has to lie to try to set himself apart. That's the only game his got.....but lying is deceitful and doesn't impress me one bit!


http://www4.fosters.com/election_2002/oct/09/us_2cong_1009a.asp

Retired Gen. Clark supports Swett, raises concerns about Iraq policy
By STEPHEN FROTHINGHAM,Associated Press Writer
MANCHESTER, N.H. (AP) — Retired U.S. Army Gen. Wesley Clark said Wednesday he supports a congressional resolution that would give President Bush authority to use military force against Iraq, although he has reservations about the country's move toward war.
----------------------
The general said he had no doubt Iraq posed a threat, but questioned whether it was immediate and said the debate about a response has been conducted backward.
"Normally in a debate, you start with a problem and consider possible solutions. Instead, the president has presented us with a solution before the problem has been fully articulated," he said.
"As far as the information we have now shows, there are no nuclear warheads on missiles pointed to America," he said. "You can't wait 10 years to act, but there is time on our side."
He said al-Qaida remains the largest terrorist threat against the United States, and the connection ----between al-Qaida and Iraq is unclear.
------------------------
After endorsing Swett in Nashua, he visited Manchester West High School and reassured history students that the threat of terrorism should be kept in perspective.
-----------------------
He said he shares the concerns he hears from many Americans about whether the country should act against Iraq without United Nations support and about how the United States will deal with Iraq after a successful invasion.
He also met in Portsmouth with the Democratic nominee in the 1st Congressional District, state Sen. Martha Fuller Clark.
A spokesman for Clark said the two were meeting to discuss foreign policy.

[FrenchieCat]

33. and Dean said these things about the war.....

it's called a Flip/Flop...but of course, he's immune from being attacked because he is so close to being a God!

On January 31, Dean told Ron Brownstein of the Los Angeles Times that "if Bush presents what he considered to be persuasive evidence that Iraq still had weapons of mass destruction, he would support military action, even without U.N. authorization.

And then on Feb. 20, Dean told Salon.com that "if the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.

Then a day later, he told the Associated Press that he would not support sending U.S. troops to Iraq unless the United Nations specifically approves the move and backs it with action of its own. "They have to send troops," he said.

Four days later on PBS's News Hour with Jim Lehrer, Dean said United Nations authorization was a prerequisite for war. "We need to respect the legal rights that are involved here," Dean said. "Unless they are an imminent threat, we do not have a legal right, in my view, to attack them."

Then on June 22 2003: Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean, another Democratic contender, followed Mr. Kerry's lead yesterday with a similar accusation on NBC's "Meet the Press."
"We were misled," Mr. Dean said. "The question is, did the president do that on purpose or was he misled by his own intelligence people?"

[Hep]

37. Actually, you're wrong

And you leave out the most important detail. Whether or not there were WMD's. People always leave that out. I wish I could say that I don't know why. But I do know why.

And I can illustrate it very well. You claim that Dean made the comment "if the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions..." on 2/20. That's impossible. First, the story was published on 2/19. Second, only an IDIOT thinks he made the comment on the day that that story came out.

An actual OBJECTIVE search of the information tells us that he made the comments on 2/6.

This is important, because it wasn't until 2/14 that the chief inspector came back and said they ad found nothing. By changing the date of his comment to 2/20, you make it sound like he said it after that information came out. That's just a bold faced lie, and it sucks that you have to resort to that in order to vilify someone who isn't your candidate.

It's not even sad. It's aggravating that some people who seem to be very intelligent and well meaning have to sink to RUSH LIMBAUGH style lows in their demonization.

[Hep]

39. Bump for frenchie

n/t

[Hep]

42. Again

n/t

[FrenchieCat]

43. and?

If you were to watch Clark's senate testimony, which you can do right here http://www.us4clark.com/mediaclips.html
go down till you find C-Span and see what Clark was saying at the beginning of this thing!

you would find that he was saying not to go, unless you take it to United Nations.....always said the same thing...

Dean lies when he says that Clark supported a resolution that is any different from what Clark said.

Remember that the resolution was passed on October 10, 2002.....

By February we were being told that the war was invitable.....

That Dean said something on February whatever....no one knew what was in Iraq...and still protests were happening against the war in October of 2002.

The fact is that Dean was saying in February, after the build up...that they could act unalatirely.

[Hep]

47. You left my question unanswered.

Dean lies when he says that Clark supported a resolution that is any different from what Clark said.

DidClark counsel a representative to vote for the IWR?

This is where you admit that you have it all wrong. You can't get around it now, no matter how hard you try. You lied about the date, you left out vital information.

[Hep]

36. To clear things up

Did Clark or did he not counsel someone to vote yes?

[KaraokeKarlton]

45. The ONLY difference between Dean's comments about the other candidates

And the comments of the other candidates we ALL know were directed at Dean is that Dean was honest and open about what he said and had the balls to come right out and say what he meant and who they were directed at rather than being a passive aggressive little putz like some of the others were. Frankly, I respect someone who isn't afraid to call people out when they are wrong. And I especially respect someone who doesn't try to attack others while pretending they aren't.

[welshTerrier2]

12. my two cents

maybe it's because i've heard the same talking points so many times but Dean seemed flat to me ... i'm increasingly concerned he's not our best candidate ...

and before the usual parade of flamers gets going, don't get me wrong ... i like most of Dean's positions and would gladly vote for him ...

but i don't think he's the most qualified ...

[Hep]

16. Not flaming

But how do you measuer qualifications?

[Killarney]

22. I watched

and was very impressed by Dean.

I'm still undecided until I watch more debates and give myself more time, but Dean blew me away yesterday. During the other candidates' speeches, I found myself nodding along and agreeing. But only during Dean's speech did I pump my fist in the air and clap. He can really fire people up.

[creativelcro]

27. Dean blew me away too... Especially compared to Clark...

Kucinich was awesome too... I liked them all, overall, but Dean was especially good...

[pruner]

26. medals obviously

M.I.C.

[Zynx]

41. "Qualified"? Hah. What a bad argument.

James Buchanan was arguably the most qualified man that has ever been president and he was the worst president in history. George H.W. Bush, Herbert Hoover, and many others have had impressive records of service and knowledge and have been terrible presidents.

[TrueAmerican]

28. Florida is in play

as long as Clark is leading the ticket.

[quaker bill]

30. Dean did well and Fla is in play

Dean brought in many of his non-delegate supporters for an additional rally at the convention. This did not appear on CSPAN. There was alot more going on there than was reported. None of the other candidates shelled out the cash for this kind of space. When this is considered, Dean did alot better than the other candidates when it comes to getting ready for March 9.

Florida is in play. JEB won against a good but weak candidate. I liked McBride, supported him and voted for him, but felt he never stood that much of a chance.

JEB on the other hand spent as much time running against citizen propositions, specifically the class size ammendment. This ammendment ran exactly counter to JEB's voucher plans and won 53% to 47%. JEB is still fighting it and losing at every turn. This and the 'High quality public education' ammendment passed in 2000 will eventually require JEB to raise taxes and provide public services. That is if he will 'support and defend the constitution of Fla' as he swore an oath to do.

The vote for JEB in FLA was not the sort of endorsement of Neo-cons that many people read into it. The economy in Fla has remained strong despite the experience elsewhere. JEB was just an articulate incumbent in a State where most things were going acceptably well for the majority of people. He was also the brother of our 'galant leader' in a time of war. Our position on public education won despite his strongly voiced opposition. That pretty well covers it. Florida is in play.

[JohnKleeb]

34. Heard he did good but I heard that the others did pretty nice too

[Lorien]

40. I was there. He was great

so were the other candidates (report here; http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=841651

being there in person helped me to see than in "real life" dems are far more unified and supportive of one another's candidates than they are here on DU. I saw Deanies cheering and clapping for Clark, I saw Kucinich supporters cheering and clapping for Dean. Everyone said they were impressed with Edwards. Everyone said they liked Kucinich (but most admitted sadly that America isn't ready for a true progressive). Most people on the shuttle buses on the way back to parking were overheard saying "I love all our candidates this time around!" I wish we had similar sentiments here on DU!

[laura888]

44. He gave me chills...he had the crowd roaring

he's a contender in FL, I think.

[slinkerwink]

46. I'd have to agree, and Clark lost it when he said we should move on from

2000.

[Selwynn]

49. Too bad he's 100% right on that.

He said he believes are best days are ahead of us and not behind us, and he's right. I'm so sick and tired of Democrats living in the past I could puke. Get over it, and start thinking about the future.

[realFedUp]

51. I just saw the Q & A with Kucinich

I thought he did well as usual, comfortable
and was having a good time.

[Selwynn]

52. How "good" depends on what you want/like

I watched all the convention. How good Dean was depends on what you like I guess. Dean was the only candidate out of everyone that spoke that was a complete and utter turn off for me. He was also the only candidate who couldn't resist bashing other candidates at the convention which I found to be disappointing.

But, on the otherh and, he was articulate, his speech was clear and well written, the crowd was jacked up, so I guess he did great. It's just not what I would want in a president, that's all.

[GOPFighter]

55. So you won't support him if...

...he's the Democratic nominee??

[Selwynn]

56. I'll make the decision based on serval factors -

- when the Democratic nominee is chosen. 99.99% chance I would support whoever the Democratic nominee is against Bush.

But this is why people get so disillusioned with politics. I don't just want to support someone becuase they are margianlly better than Bush or at least have a different set of problems than Bush. I want my vote to be for a candidate that I PERSONALLY BELIEVE IN and could personally feel loyal too. If Dean gets the nomination, I'll most likely vote for him because Bush is so terrbible, not because he is so good. But he won't be my president, and I'll go another four years with a perosn in the white house that I didn't want, who doesn't represent me and who I only feel marginally better about than the guy before him.