I'm in Iowa, undecided, and need suggestions

[Bluzmann57]

It won't be long before the caucauses here, and I know darn well we must get bush and co. out. But I am having a quandary about whom to support at this time. The choices in my book are Dean, Clark(I know he isn't even campaiging here), Gephardt, and Edwards. Each man has good and bad qualities. I met Governor/doctor Dean and Senator Edwards and was impressed with each man. My Union is making a huge push for Gephardt, and while I have a mind of my own, I do tend to at least listen to the Union hierarchy. Clark seems to have a take no crap approach that I think will serve him and the Dems well in the summer and autumn of '04. No matter what, I will likely support the nominee from the Democratic party against bush in November of 2004. Thank you for any support you may give this rambling and maybe I'll see some of the QCA people at the moveon meetup tonight.

[Jack_Dawson]

1. Clark, if you don't want to see Bush reelected

Clark is the biggest threat to the republicans. Just ask them. But since he's given up on Iowa, everyone is predicting a low finish. Why don't you guys surprise all the "experts"?

[joeybee12]

2. Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean, Dean!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Even the Dem "leadership" (I use that word lightly) is coming around to see that it's inevitable.

All this crap about Clark being the only one who can beat Bush is just crap. A lot of them can beat Dumbo, and the more Clark supporters say that it's only Clark, the weaker their argument gets.

[BootinUp]

3. I'm interested in whether you

have seen much on Clark in Iowa. Are you seeing any local coverage of him, or just national news.

[Bluzmann57]

8. Here in eastern Iowa

there has been no local coverage of General Clark. We do get a lot of national coverage of him, however and he was in Des Moines for the last debate, which our local NBC affiliate carried. And did you know that Tom Brokaw is a University of Iowa grad? Yes, it's true.

[Brucey]

4. I too am undecided, but

I don't think Gep has a chance in hell of beating Bush. Clark probably has the best chance, but that is very tentative since he has so little campaign experience. Kerry has a little chance, but won't get any help from the South or from independents. Dean has a good chance because he stimulates such enthusiasm, and getting out the Dem vote could make the difference, although, he also has the highest negatives. So, I am now considering those three... Clark, Kerry, and Dean.

[Patriot_Spear]

5. Dean! because he's FIGHTING to win!

Remember- most of the other guys are the same ones who've lost us the House, the Senate and failed to fight hard enough in 2000 for the man who was the Peoples choice in the last election.

Choose Dean because he's a TRUE fighting Democrat!

[KaraokeKarlton]

6. Dean is the only one with the money to defend against Bush

Gephardt isn't getting hardly any money at all and Clark entered too late to catch up to Dean. Dean's ability to raise money can't be beat. He also has a firecely loyal and stong army of supporters. Edwards is in pretty much the same boat as Gephardt. Dean and Clark are the best two choices for you, but Dean is the more solid choice for the reasons I mentioned. Check both of their websites out and see which one you agree with more after looking at their issues pages and if you like them both about the same I'd go with Dean because of his organizational and financial advantage.

[DrFunkenstein]

12. Um, Not The Only One (whoops, forgot Kerry)

Glad to see that money trumps substance for you, but Kerry will have no trouble raising the money.

[JohnKleeb]

15. Sigh on money

That ought not to be what it should be all about. Still listening to what a certain man once told me, and its shameful yet true I guess.

[KaraokeKarlton]

19. Realism vs. Idealism

Idealism may be admirable and "feel-good" but Idealism isn't going to be able to defend against Bush and company attack ads. Realism and being honest with ourselves is what it takes to win. There is a time and a place to be Idealistic, and in the middle of a crucial election where the bad guy already has the cards stacked in his favor is NOT the time to be Idealistic, it's the time to be Realistic.

Like it or not, those are the facts.

[JohnKleeb]

20. idealism and realism?

I just dont like things being all about green same with the person I quoted. Green is the root behind a lot of problems, no? I think when things become about money, things become wrong. BTW we were at a simliar crossroads 35 years ago with people like RFK, who were talking about love and compassion not violence and despair. Same holds here. I think money is not an issue in who I support, only thing thats gonna have me support someone in the primaries is if they inspire me, and thats what the guy I support does, makes me think of another thing RFK once said, some people see things as they are and ask why, others see things that never were and ask why not. 1968 was just as important as 2004. Bobby talked about idealism a lot.

[KaraokeKarlton]

26. You can't move forward with your Ideals politically

If you don't win. Bottom line is that it takes money to win. It sucks that you do, but that's the reality. So, everyone can embrace Idealism during the campaign and election and get another 4 years of pure hell or they can buck it up and play tough to win and THEN worry about what is Ideal and what isn't.

[Eloriel]

41. John, John!

Our undecided Iowan didn't ask about positions or policies or "substance," he asked about WHO CAN BEAT BUSH. That's the angle from which most people are answering.

Go read my post. If he'd asked about WHO I supported and WHY, I would've answered completely differently.

Please. Don't YOU join in the stupid and senseless attacks for any piffling reason, twisting things so that the attacks almost make sense.

You're too smart and too honest for that.

Eloriel

[KaraokeKarlton]

18. Kerry doesn't have enough support to be competitive

He's sinking more and more each day and regardless of whether or not you want to admit it, he's as good as done in this race. Clark offers much more than Kerry does on the issue of National Security and Foreign Policy. Many of those who were looking at Kerry can get more of what they were looking for from Clark. And Kerry can't use his wife's money to fund his campaign. It's against the law. He can tap into his own personal money, NOT his wife's, but he doesn't have the ability to even touch Dean when it comes to raising funds. Also, I didn't see the poster even mention Kerry as one of the people he/she liked. They listed Dean, Clark, Edwards and Gephardt. I gave a fair and objective opinion based on the facts, not my personal preference.

Money doesn't trump substance with me, but it is crucial to have the money to defend against Bush attacks, period. It's just my personal opinion that Kerry is not a candidate of substance. In fact, I find him to be pretty shallow, but that's my opinion and clearly not yours.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

36. Just has to scrape around under the sofa cushions at home.

That's probably $20 million right there.

[FrenchieCat]

7. Hey, Clarkies will be sending letters to Iowa....

we haven't given up completely there. I believe that Clark would do best in the General election, and I think that democrats should make that as their prerequisite as to whom they should choose as their nominee. Clark has the personality, the knowledge, the gravitas and the resume to stand next to Bush and make Bush look inept in a way that no other can.

Clark will be able to claim the patriotism mantle for the Democrats. There is no way in contrasting and comparing that Clark comes up on the short side of the equation.

Clark will also be able to toot his work on the Dayton Peace Accord. Bush has fought 2 wars and has not found any of the dictators that he promised he would. Clark's dictator is in the Hague awaiting trial....so he's got some results to show for the war he was involved in.

Further, Clark is as "awh chucks" as Bush is. Meaning he is disarming because he is not a politician. He has a personality that will wear well in the General Election. Furthermore, He was already vetted by a Republican Senate in order to obtain his 4th star...and the only talking points the RW has, we have already heard them. They are all refutable...and in fact have been.

Clark is a hero, a thinker and a diplomat. That is something that the other candidates don't share....not in a complete package topped with charisma!

So if the priority is to Beat Bush, as Clark has demonstrated at being the closest consistently to beating Bush......

I think Clark is the one.

From the south (but not extremely so), Foreign policy up the ying-yang, moderate image (yet fairly liberal), strong statesman image without the politicking packaging. Articulate and tough without anger, unless appropriate.

can draw Military, moderate, centrist, southern, and Republican votes.

Need a strong southern showing to draw for the 4 Southern Democratic senate seats that will be in play in 2004. Clark is the one that can do that best.

[Nazgul35]

38. better hurry...

The Dean campaign has already sent about 90k+ letter to Iowa and another 10k to NH...by the end of december that should be up to about 130K in Iowa and 30k for NH...and there are around 50 days left....

:evilgrin:

[BrewCrew]

9. gephardt

I think it's time we had a President whp STOOD UP for the rights of the worker. Because of his record, we can be ceratin that Gephardt will not sell out the American worker, and frankly will not sell out the worker in these other countries, either. We just can't compete and on top of that the living conditions of workers in the developing countries of Asia are deplorable. They live on the ground. They live in the cardboard boxes that bring the products back to the United States. Raw sewage flows! Its horrible. The Gep won't sell you out. No wonder your union is making such a push

[JohnKleeb]

10. Thats one of the reasons I like Gep

Your reason to support him is the same as my grandfather's. I am not sure what number Gep is on my list, but his commitment to labor over the years is great, from the supporter of another son of a teamster to another, Gephardt fights for the working man constantly and I like that. I support Kucinich but I do like Gephardt especially on this issue.

[DrFunkenstein]

11. Take Another Look At Kerry

While Kerry's campaign was hampered by prostate surgery and a campaign run by too many D.C. insiders, he is now moving fast and loose. And when you look past the brouhaha, Kerry would simply make the best President. Look at the Presidency as a job, and ask who could do it best. Don't let polls rule you.

Kerry has experience fighting the war on terrorism with 15 years on the Committee on Terrorism and International Relations (8 years as chair), the clearly best record on the environment, has a universal health care package that can actually pass Congress, and has a long record of taking on corporate crime and corporate welfare.

Dean (the guy most likely to be trounced) has no foreign policy experience, and Clark has no domestic experience. Kerry knows both fronts inside and out.

Vote for the man you think will do the best job.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

34. what he said, and....

Cut through all the bullshit and imagine that John Kerry is already President next time you listen to him speak. It's easy to do because he is so clearly a natural for the job.

[sandnsea]

35. He's been fighting for us..

Now it's our turn to fight for him! He is absolutely who I would most like to see in the Oval Office tomorrow morning!

[Bombtrack]

13. Edwards is the best candidate in running in Iowa by far

he has the MOST comprehensive platform and best ideas.

All the candidates have a healthcare plan that calls for X billion dollars, all the candidates would "improve education" and improve "homeland security

but Edwards has the best and most elaborate positions to do these things and more

He would create an "office of civil liberties and rights" an offical government watchdog, while shifting the spying responsibilities of the FBI to a new agency with more congressional oversight

He'd pass a workers/shareholders bill of rights as part of his agenda to reform corporate America

He'd initiate a "college for everyone" program that would help millions of kids who otherwise would not attend college the right to have there first year at a public college paid for in exchange for a few hours work a week, while reforming the student loan system to save everyone money

on and on

the other candidates don't come close, and this is just a snippet of his "real solutions for America" policy guidebook
http://www.johnedwards2004.com/issues.asp
I beg of you to read this easy to navigate page and I'll bet you you'll come away impressed
-------------------------------

I feel it's more important for you to vote for someone other than Dean, Gephardt perhaps, than to vote for Edwards. Nominating him would be the biggest favor anyone could ever give the republicans and it's paramount that another likely landslide loser like him does not get the nomination

[Desertrose]

14. Hey bluzmann57...noticed your avatar

"Union-YES"
Did you know that Dennis Kucinich is a card carrying union member?? That he is the strongest Union supporter of all the candidates??

I would ask you to please, simply to check out his website.

He has been speaking out on issues since day one and before-issues that can make a difference in all our lives in all areas. I know most folks here on DU seem to think he doesn't really have a shot but I hear from others sources all over that Dennis is going to really surprise folks.
His supporters are working very hard in Iowa...of course it is not reported but it doesn't mean its not happening and can't happen....
Dennis doesn't back down or waffle...he does his homework and presents solutions....

Please...check out the website and contact any of us DK supporters here on DU if you have any questions....
http://www.kucinich.us/issues/

Peace
DR

[Mattforclark]

16. First of all, think for yourself

Go read about the candidates stances on policy questions that interest you at their websites if you have not already done so.

My personal plug, of course, is for Clark.

1) He has the best chance of winning.
2) He is intelligent and well educated, and has a worldview in line with mine. Rhodes scholar, taught economics at west point, etc. He thinks rationally and asks questions.
3) He has a great bunch of policies (http://www.clark04.com/issues) and I think that of the presidential candidates he has the best chance of getting them intact through congress.
4) He has massive experience in the international arena as well as experience on the implementation side on important issues like education and housing when he oversaw military bases and every soldier and their families in Europe.
5) I think he can lead us out of the mess in Iraq better than any of the other candidates and he can most effectively deal with REAL threats, like Osama Bin Laden. In a recent town hall meeting in NH, for example, he pointed out that 1 or 2 billion dollars spent on the poorly guarded WMD sitting around in the former Soviet Union would have gone a lot further to making us secure than spending however many billion it has cost now to invade Iraq.

[in_cog_ni_to]

17. Clark has the best chance of beating Bush.

http://www.americansforclark.com/

And here's a link to his issues page. I think if you read his positions on the issues, you will feel the same as I do. Clark is definately the man to beat Bush. He is the one who can go toe to toe with him on Iraq. He is the one who can intellectually demolish the pea brained squatter and win the general election. AND, he is definately the one who can counter the RW rhetoric that will be coming his way in the campaign. He's very smart, knows his stuff and will take NO garbage coming fron KKKRove and the Bush administration. The link will give you his positions on the issues. If you go to his web site, be sure to watch his Wes Cam videos. They give you great insight to "the man" himself. He is WONDERFUL!

http://clark04.com/issues/

[Bombtrack]

23. Clark opted out of Iowa

I say vote for Gephardt, to stop Dean there

[arewethereyet]

21. first off decide what you seek to do

are you after a winner in 2004 or someone who matches your ideas ?

Idea wise its Gep or Edwards. Dean will not help union people, he doesn't understand them. The other two do.

Winner wise do you really think Dean is a popularity contest winner ? Lets face it, thats what the general election comes down to for the final few percentage of people that throw it one way or the other. Dean is NOT a likable guy, too much piss and vinegar. Clark is an ex-general who can't remember what he says, lies abotu events and got fired for the quality of his military work. nuff said.

Kerry is likeable but is floundering, Gep is likable but how does he look to non-union people ? Edwards is likeable, understands working people and, since he worked hard and became wealthy himself, understands the middle class and wealthy people as well. And he's got charisma, you've seen it, you know what I mean.

So decide whats important to you and good luck in coming to a choice.

[goddess40]

22. To Iowa

Please read Dean's speech he just gave in SC. It is on DU under Amazing speech Dean is giving in SC. Might help you make up your mind.

[FrenchieCat]

24. Whatever guy you want to promote....

is ok with me, but don't lie about my candidate, ok....
If you want to know why he was fired, ask....

Please note that there are additional articles (14 of them) from various mainstream publications also available at this link here. this is a Russian site which is dedicated to General Wes Clark. http://wesleyclark.h1.ru/departure.htm#top
Outlook 8/9/99
GEN. WESLEY CLARK WAS RIGHT -- AND SO HE MUST GO
Levin Statement on Departure of General Wesley Clark
Perspective on the Military: Why Wesley Clark Got the Ax at NATO
U.S. Department of State, Daily Press Briefing Aug. 3, 1999
Warrior's Rewards
General Clark's Last Stand
The Unappreciated General
Clark's Exit Was Leaked Deliberately, Official Says
President Clinton's "Distress"
Washington's Long Knives
Army Faces Reduced Leadership Role

then there this......archived from NYT....moderators, I have paid for this article.....so I can post it....this is not for commercial use.
July 29, 1999, Thursday
FOREIGN DESK
Clinton's Adviser Defends Decision to Retire NATO General

By ELIZABETH BECKER (NYT) 801 words
WASHINGTON, July 28 -- The President's top security adviser today defended the decision to speed up the retirement of the NATO Supreme Commander, Gen. Wesley K. Clark, by a few months to make way for his intended replacement, and the adviser insisted that the move did not signal any displeasure with the general's performance.
''General Clark is a superb commander,'' Samuel R. Berger, the national security adviser, said. ''The President has the highest degree of confidence in him.''

Over the weekend, Defense Secretary William S. Cohen chose Gen. Joseph W. Ralston, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, as his candidate to succeed General Clark as the head of United States forces in Europe and NATO commander.

Administration officials said moving General Ralston to the prestigious NATO post was the Pentagon's primary motive.

General Ralston is required by law to leave his current post by February, because he will have served the maximum four years. That timetable led in turn to the decision to ask General Clark to leave his post a few months early. He had been scheduled to retire next summer, when his extended term would have ended.

NATO officials said General Clark was taken aback by the suddenness of the decision to have him retire in April or May, a message relayed to him by telephone on Tuesday while he was traveling.

''His assumption was that he would remain as long as he was doing a good job,'' a NATO official said. ''This came sooner than expected.''

Several officials felt compelled to dismiss any notion that the general's many disagreements with the Pentagon and other NATO members in the Kosovo conflict might have contributed to the decision. General Clark urged a more aggressive bombing campaign and asked the Pentagon for speedier deployment of equipment and troops.

His insistence that NATO prepare for the possibility of a ground war was at odds with the Administration, which did not want to pursue an invasion that would be publicly unpopular.

Officials went to great lengths to play down the friction and turn the spotlight on the promotion of General Ralston.

Mr. Cohen and Secretary of State Madeleine K. Albright joined today in praising General Clark.

''He's done an outstanding job in serving this capacity as Commander of the European Forces and Supreme Allied Commander,'' Mr. Cohen said at a news conference in Tokyo.

Last Thursday, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Hugh H. Shelton, met senior military commanders, including General Clark, in Tampa, Fla., but nothing was said to General Clark about his impending early retirement, several officials who were at the meeting said.

On Tuesday, when General Shelton telephoned General Clark who was on an official visit to Lithuania, to tell him the news, General Clark was upset that he had not been told in Florida, a NATO official said.

A spokesman for General Shelton said that the Chairman had telephoned General Clark as soon as the final decision was made over the weekend and that General Ralston had agreed to be a candidate.

General Clark said today that he considered the action part of a routine change of command. ''When a soldier's journey is over, it's over,'' he said in Vilnius, Lithuania, according to the Baltic News Service.

At the Pentagon and on Capitol Hill, reaction to was muted.

''I think this is much ado about very little here,'' said Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison, a Texas Republican who opposed the Kosovo bombing but is close to General Clark. ''I don't think this is in any way a slap at General Clark. It's not unusual to make a two- or three-month adjustment in someone's tour to accommodate another officer.''

Lawmakers and officers praised General Ralston, who is 55. ''Joe Ralston will be very good,'' said Tillie Fowler, a Florida Republican who is on the House Armed Services Committee.

A highly decorated former combat pilot in Vietnam and an administrator known for his skills at building a consensus, General Ralston withdrew from consideration for Chairman of the Joint chiefs two years, ago after it became known that he had an affair in the 1980's while separated from his wife.

He had planned to retire next year to Anchorage, Alaska. But in his last two years as vice chairman, his 18-hour days, for example seeing to details like accompanying Ms. Albright to visit the Chinese Ambassador here on the night a NATO plane bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade, helped erase military and Administration concerns that he could not surmount the adultery reports.

Mr. Cohen cited General Ralston's ''diplomatic skills, his war capabilities and his war record.''

[arewethereyet]

29. thanks for all that, but I already know why

Don't forget that the military learned a little something from their firings of Patton and McArthur. You dress it up so as not to make yourselves look bad. Point was, he was placed outside the circle.

And if we nominate him anyway, we'll find out even more.

I appreciate that you like what he has to say but it would be a good idea to keep your eyes as open as your heart.

[Zynx]

27. Kerry likeable?! A nearly broke a rib there.

I happen to be a typical mid-westerner and maybe its just I don't like Massachusetts elitism, but I can not stand John Kerry. In terms of those that I "like", they would be Dean, Clark, and Edwards.

[arewethereyet]

28. the context was nationally, not mid-west

Kerry has all the issues that come with being from Mass but he does project well.

[Zynx]

30. I don't know. There's something at a gut level I don't like.

I think he's trustworthy, but there's something very snobish about him.

[arewethereyet]

31. I don't disagree at all

and he is a little snobby because he is a wealthy guy from around there. but there are people who are OK with that. JFK was a little the same way also FDR. some people like it, seems like there is a grownup calling the shots is how I like to describe that.

[sandnsea]

42. He's a very real person

I find Kerry more real than Edwards or Dean. Clark is real when he starts talking about the flag and patriotism, I like that. Edwards gets real sometimes, but alot of the time he's kind of, just consistent. When Kerry gets up and talks to people in the debates, I find him very real and likeable. He's a genuine person and I don't think his intelligence or "nuance" puts people off as much as the media and some others would like to portray.

[robsul82]

25. Uhhh...votedean*COUGH*

Yeah.

Later.

RJS

[Upfront]

32. Please Read

The speach Dean gave today in S.C. It can be found on this forum. Enough said.:-)

[Bluzmann57]

33. Thanks for the info

football is done, my Packers won and I'm going to a screening of the "Truth out" film. And I still don't have a definite fave for president. I do, however, have a choice who can't be pres. bush must go. and as soon as possible.

[Nazgul35]

37. Let me give you a strategic answer...

First, let me say I support Dean...this is also my personal opinion....the primaries are front loaded this year and the top three finishers in Iowa and the top two in NH are going to get most of the press and those 20-30% undecideds you see in all the polls will suddenly choose after NH...so momentum is important...

Now the competition is down to Gephardt, Dean, Kerry, Clark and Edwards.

If you choose to support Dean, with the 30% lead he has in NH, the two wins will give him a tremendous advantage going into the feb. primaries...If you want to end the race early vote Dean...

Gephardt can not compete past Iowa until well into the primaries when it will be to late to reserect himself....pass on Gephardt...it is a wasted vote...

If you want to stop Dean, then you must focus on who will be the candidate that best has a shot to challange Dean. So you should consider who you want to come in third behind Dean and Gep., as this is who the media will focus on.

Clark hurt himself here by dropping out because he could easily taken that third spot, maybe even jumped into second...he is currently threatening to go into second in NH and currently is within the MOE in most of the primaries through february...a vote for Clark could aid his performance in NH...

Edwards is a challange to Clark right now...any advance for Edwards comes at the expense of Clark...in the last poll it looked like Edwards was amking a run at third and second in Iowa and NH...but outside his home state he isnt making any headway....

Kerry is trailing in NH close to falling into third, trailing in Mass, close to falling into fourth in Iowa...and beyond these two states has remained at the back of the pack in the other primary states...

My advice is to vote for Clark or Dean....and remember, this is my personal opinion...something I am not certain of or even will put money on...unlike many posters on DU....

:evilgrin:

[Eloriel]

39. Which of the candidates had

multiple door-to-door canvassing efforts going on in GEORGIA this weekend? And have been doing that (and many other things) for several months now? Which of the candidates have phone banking in GA going on for both Iowa and Georgia? (Our primary is March 3.)

Which candidate's supporters have sent over 93,000 (that's NINETY-THREE THOUSAND) hand-written letters (as of tonight) asking Iowans and New Hampshirites to support Dean? (and we ain't done yet.)

Dean. Period.

Now think of that level of organization or more (and perhaps some with less) over 50 states.

Anyone who thinks Dean can't win this thing just doesn't have ANY idea what's going on in Dean's campaign. It's utterly phenomenal, and unprecedented. (And that's not all that's going on in Dean's campaign, buit I'll leave it to you to find out: http://www.blogforamerica.com/ But don't go there if you're not up for some excitement, some heartstring tugging, maybe a little corniness, etc. Go meet some Dean supporters. Click on "Comments" under each blog entry to see what Dean supporters are thinking, doing, dreaming, worrying about, etc. Join the community.)

These aren't the reasons I support Dean -- of which there are many. These are the things that reassure me about the vitality, unparalleled organization, and most of all electability of Dean. No other campaign comes close or stands much of a chance of coming close in time for it to matter. Them's just the facts, no slam on any other candidate.

Eloriel

[TrueAmerican]

40. Clark

Dean can't beat Bush. Clark can.