16-year-olds can vote, and vote well at that.

[alexwcovington]

Their ability to look at the facts and make educated decisions are no different from anyone else's.

If we're supposed to be the world's leading democracy, why do we still lock millions citizens of citizens out? Why do we have a higher voting age than Iran? Why isn't ours lower?

But I'll spare you the arguments for lowering the voting age to 14. At this time we're having a hard enough time arguing for 16, but it could get a lot easier the way things are going in Britain - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3297739.stm

Why aren't we keeping up with Britain as they lower their voting age?

All of you, who may be hearing about this issue for the first time, I can assure you you are not hearing about it for the last time. The news from Britain is only going to be more significant in the future.

I gotta tell you all, I'm really, **really** surprised that I've found as much support for this expansion of civil rights from NEOCONS as from Progressives. This is an issue that draws support across party lines, but also opposition, which is why I'm expecting a substantial amount of flaming when I post this.

Well drone on. I'm not about to compromise my ideals. This issue won't go away because of some DU flamers. There are always going to be high school sophomores disappointed by the fact that they can't vote until we fix the problem.

I don't care what stereotypes you pull out of your ass to justify denying rights to an entire group of people. The only fact that matters is that there are people in this age group (and indeed in others, but we'll deal with that later) that want to vote, and want to do it legitimately and not in some mock election.

This is about real, democratic values and who we are as a country.

Then again I suppose we aren't living in a real democracy anymore. We aren't living in a nation where civil rights for all is respected. I hope that can change, because I'm certainly going to fight for it.

A couple weeks ago a school in South Carolina was INVADED by police searching for drugs (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/07/national/main582492.shtml), to no avail, it seems, except to scare the pants off a bunch of young people and strengthen their submission to authoritarian rule. TO PREPARE THEM FOR LIFE IN THE NEXT BUSH ADMINISTRATION?!

The other day a kid in New Jersey was suspended for taking ADVIL to school. Advil. http://www.shreveporttimes.com/html/AE0F03BF-76FC-4300-8564-695F1898F37C.shtml WTF?

And yet while we may be outraged over these violations of rights, those who would oppress can always argue that "young people don't have any rights."

I think it is time to change that viewpoint in America and to change it full-on. Visit http://www.votesat16.org.uk/ to look at the movement in the UK and http://www.youthrights.org/vote10.html to see how NYRA is trying to bring the issue home.

[goobergunch]

1. I concur.

Once again, the British are more progressive than America. IMHO, if you're old enough to have the competence to drive, you're old enough to have the competence to vote.

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. I'm torn on that one

I do think that a lot of 16 year olds can make good civic decisions, but I think far more can't and would be likely to just vote the way Mom and Dad do.

What do you think of having to take a test to qualify to vote, the same way we do to drive?

[alexwcovington]

6. I'd be amenable to the concept if it could be constitutionally done

Unfortunately the poll test went out with poll taxes--- they were used as a means of control, not access, and they've been banned forever.

[durutti]

11. Vote the way Mom and Dad do?

The vast majority of people (over 90 percent) vote the way their parents to anyway.

[5thGenDemocrat]

27. A couple of points

First, my mom was a Democrat and my dad was a Republican. I suspect it's the same for millions of youngsters today. It's not so easy to just say kids vote like their parents.
Now, I remember when the voting age was lowered to 18. The country didn't collapse, rioting didn't happen in the streets and none of the youngsters voted for Bobby Sherman. I suspect the 16-18 year olds would do fine, too.
Also, 16 is probably what 18 used to be. Between the computer and the television and all the other world-shrinking technology, kids grow up a bit faster.
I was well aware of what was happening in the world in 1972, when I was 16. It probably goes without saying that I would have voted for George McGovern. Sixteen is plenty mature to vote
Finally, I'm 47 and my peers vote for candidates for some of the stupidest goddamned reasons. I mean, this state sent Spencer Abraham to the Senate.
If it were left to me to vote on enfranchising these youngsters, I'd say yes. They can't possibly do worse than we're doing already and I believe more democracy is preferable to less democracy.
John
Let 'em vote.

[Mattforclark]

12. I agree, but.....

"I do think that a lot of 16 year olds can make good civic decisions, but I think far more can't and would be likely to just vote the way Mom and Dad do."

Many 16 year olds know more about politics than many 18 year olds. But it is true that many don't have a clue. That is also true for 18 year olds, 20 year olds, 30 year olds, 40 year olds....

"What do you think of having to take a test to qualify to vote, the same way we do to drive?"

The problem with that is the history of literacy/polling tests that were used to prevent African Americans from voting. It would bring up a lot of old issues.

[GreenPartyVoter]

16. Yep

That would be a problem. :^( The GOP had a field day with scrubbing felons from voter lists. I am sure they'd do far more damage with a civic literacy test.

I understand 16 year olds waiting to have a say in the world they will inherit. And they should. But do they understand the world enough to know _how_ they want to shape it? (I was in my twenties before I figured it out.)

Not many of them are out there really working to support a family yet, so might not think positively about universal healthcare. A lot of them would be easy prey to Bush-type lies of "tax cuts = more money in your pocket".

Increasing the size of the electorate would mean increasing the amount of educating we have to do in order for them to be informed voters. I would say we're barely managing to get the word out to the electorate we have now, thanks to a stifled media.

Not sure how many kids would really vote, though. We'd have a huge bunch of apathetics avoiding the polls, a handful of serious minded students making informed voting decisions, and possibly a fairly large group voting for the shock value and picking the wildest choices available.

[Colin Ex]

29. Most people

get their ideals and morals from mom and dad anyway. Generally speaking, and there are certainly a ton of exceptions, most everyone gets their ideals and morals from mom and dad.

As for a test to qualify to vote, that's a pretty bad idea. It'd kind of bring back memories of the last time we had laws like that.

-C

[arcos]

68. Germany is discussing giving parents a PROXY vote!

Meaning, the parents make the decision for children, and they cast the vote.

[Colin Ex]

3. Hell, I sure as fuck agree.

Voting age ought to be sixteen. Plenty of people at that age have a working thought process.

They probably won't make much of an impact, though. The people who care will vote and the majority will say "fuck it" and not vote. Kind of the same setup that's been going on for awhile now, oi.

-C

[Hep]

4. Someone's never seen "Wild in the Streets"

Don't you know what will happen, man?

;)

[bicentennial_baby]

5. Love that movie!!!!!

Everyone over ten is outta business... :P

[alexwcovington]

9. lol

hehe sounds like a popcorn flick... but the absurdity of it is undebatable :P

[Military Brat]

7. They deserve 2 years to vote in elections before being drafted

There are as many politically savvy 16-year-olds as there are politically braindead 40-year-olds. I say give them the vote, connect them with the process that will seek to control them for the rest of their lives. Most of the young are passionate, they are idealistic rather than idealogues, their minds are sharp and their bodies are strong, they aren't tied down with priorities like jobs and marriages and children, and they belong to one of the highest volunteer groups in the country.

[alexwcovington]

22. Yes!

[depakid]

8. The trouble is that most young people don't vote!

so it really doesn't make that much diffeence whether the cutoff is at 16 or 21- or even 26 (which is when car insurance rates fall). If young people voted at the same rate as seniors, they wouldn't constantly be getting ignored or getting screwed. That's just a hard & cold fact of democracy. Until that changes, you're as good as disenfranchised.

[alexwcovington]

13. Well there are a few guys who do try to care

Kucinich. Dean. They're trying to get youth into their campaigns because they realize the value of broadbase support, even from groups traditionally not high on the priority list.

And candidates on more local levels have been getting more and more youth involvement lately.

But it's always more difficult to get too interested in politics if you're not allowed to vote...

[depakid]

37. Don't get me wrong- I'm not that old-

I just think that it's a shame people don't vote. I mean the 18-26 numbers are JUST HORRIBLE, and it what happens is that it effects things like higher ed, job training, youth services, universal health and other programs that make life better (and less expensive) for all of us.

Dean & Kucinich are doing a good job reaching out to youth, but it's going to take more than that to turn the trend around- when the 26th Amendment passed, everyone thought that the youth vote would be a big boost for liberal candidates. Unfortunately, it hasn't turned out that way- and with the youth vote marginalized and taken for granted, it makes it all that much harder to get people interested.

[DebJ]

10. Just read in today's paper that the largest pool of unregistered voters

are the young. Something that 14-16 year olds can do, right now, without waiting, is register people in the say 18-21 age bracket so they will vote. You can give a horse a legal right to drink water, but you can't make him drink it, you know? But you can try talking that horse into doing it.

[alexwcovington]

19. Do you get a younger horse with its mouth wired shut to do the convincing?

That's the analogy you're working on there. If a horse sees another horse drinking it might want a drink itself but if you're bringing in a thirsty horse that can't drink the water to get the horse you want to drink water to drink it....it's not going to work.

[Bombtrack]

14. why not try for 17, it's more doable

and most 16 year olds probably are idiots, more of them could probably identify a genres of techno music from each other than indentify who represents them in the senate or what the cold war was about

[alexwcovington]

15. Techno music?

Riiiiight. Well just like politics that's something you have to look at carefully to make an informed decision. And 16-year-olds can do it just fine.

[JohnKleeb]

18. My eyes got the same alex on techno

:eyes:

[alexwcovington]

20. Cool.

Thanks man.

[JohnKleeb]

17. techno?

:) Isnt that popular in Europe? more so there than here
Oh
I am a 16 year old Virginian
here my senators
George Allen
John Warner
Governor
Mark Warner
Congressman
Frank Wolf
The cold war was a clash between the capitalist US and the communist USSR, it was not an actual war, but many conflicts were in the cold war such as the Korean war and the Vietnam war. Many politicans, democrats and republicans alike were cold warriors, meaning they were generally hawkish on issues of foreign policy. The cold war began to end with the fall of the Soviet satelites such as Czechoslovakia, Poland, and others, Yugoslavia wasnt a satelite because Tito managed to remain relatively indepedent of Soviet influence. Then in winter 1991, the USSR itself collapsed.
:) Now whats this about Techno
and btw I am not that smart and I havent talked to much my age who listen to techno.

[Bombtrack]

21. you're the exception not the rule

that's what I've experienced

[JohnKleeb]

23. Where do kids listen to techno

Kids arent monos, and I am just like every other kid out there, got a little bit of political knowledge yeah, but I am not an exception, I play the same video games, watch same movies, use the same slang, etc as many people do, now I have my own indepedent sense of identity but the kids arent all one and the same, kid on my left may listen to rap, kid on my right may listen to hard rock, kids these days are diverse types.

[Colin Ex]

32. Techno

Techno music was started as a genre-defying genre, rooted in electronica. The standard was "anything goes," and over time it's expanded a great deal. Today, people listening to electronic music can choose from trance, house, techno, and jungle. Trance music is based around a beat utilizing (generally) a hi-hat, followed by a snare, followed by a hi-hat. Depending on what else is done and where it originates, trance can fall under numerous subgenres, such as goa trance (Also called world trance) and hard trance. House music is the standard dance-club fare. Techno hasn't evolved much. Jungle music features a reggae beat and is usually downtempo.

I listen to techno and I vote!

-C

[JohnKleeb]

34. Techno Voters

:D

[goobergunch]

24. U.S. Senate or State Senate? ;)

President: Al Gore
pResident: George Bush
Senators: Arlen Specter (to be soon replaced with either Charlie Crystle or Joe Hoeffel) and Rick Santorum :puke:
Representative: Jim Gerlach (should have been Dan Wofford)
Above dependent on Supreme Court ruling in Vieth vs. Jubelirer
State Senator: Frank Thompson (I think)
State Representative: Carole Rubley

[JohnKleeb]

25. my state senator I think is Janet Howell

dont know my state rep offhand. My lone dem direct rep :) is Mrs. Howell

[goobergunch]

26. Lucky

Everybody on that list except for Gore, Crystle, and Hoeffel are Repubs :puke: :puke:.

[JohnKleeb]

33. pssst

Maggie has two dem senators, Hilliary and Schumer, Derek and Breezy has got Dayton, and the others I am sure have some too. Me and you dude have it the worst :(.

[arcos]

69. what's wrong with techno and electronica? n/t

[Kathleen04]

28. I'm unsure about this..

I'm 17 and I'm still unsure about it. I do think there are many well informed 16 and 17 year olds. And, I think that others who aren't informed would become informed just because the age has been lowered; 15 year olds would start paying attention if they knew they could vote soon. However, we lowed the age from 21 to 18, but the young people still aren't turning out to vote. And, when do we stop lowering--voting rights from birth? I'm comfortable with the age being 18...it coinsides with legal adulthood. Then again, if I were just a little bit younger right now, I'd probably be frustrated and want the age lowered. So, I keep going back and forth on this issue.

[alexwcovington]

30. Well I'm 17 as well

and the fact is I'm not going to personally benefit from this move. But other people will. That's what matters, that in the future, things will be better for everyone. But we have to work at it.

[Kathleen04]

31. When it's all said and done..

what do you want the voting age to be, ultimately?

[alexwcovington]

I'm not taking the bait

People always use this question to bait YR supporters and stab them with it. Any answer will do for this purpose, be it 16, 15, 12, or none at all.

I may be young and naive but I've been around that block before.

So why not start looking at the validity of the issue at hand rather than trying to lead me on?

[Kathleen04]

38. I'm not trying to bait you..

I just want to know what the long term goal is. I'm not against lowering the age, but I know realistically we're going to have to set some limits. I think we have to more to go on than 1) 16-17 are informed enough to vote, because there are those much younger that are informed enough to vote. And, 2) we have to go on more than 16-17 feel disenfranchised and want the right to vote, because wherever we set the age limit, someone just below the limit is going to want the right to vote. Those are my immediate concerns, we start a trend by lowering the age, then where are we going? So, I'm just wondering where we should set the limit or if there should idealistically be no limit?

[alexwcovington]

46. There is a theotetical and an ideal limit

The theoretical limit is perhaps 12 or 13 becuase around that time there is a physical change in the brain that allows higher reasoning skills to develop.

The idealistic limit is none at all.

[Kathleen04]

59. Thanks for answering. n/t

[GreenPartyVoter]

35. Election day made into a federal holiday

so that school-age kids can vote?

That might be a boost to voter turnout, 16 and 17 year olds withstanding.

Would like to see polling hours extended to accomodate the influx of extra voters.

[Colin Ex]

36. That would be the best boon for voter turnout ever.

Which is why nobody will do it.

C'est la vie, I guess.

-C

[GreenPartyVoter]

39. Well

I think it might tie for first place with ranked voting.

[Colin Ex]

40. Touche.

:-)

-c

[Cheswick2.0]

41. I admire your fight, however...and this is going to sound really rude

When you are my age you will understand why 16 year olds can not vote. Some rights you just have to wait for to appreciate. The young people here are fantastic, but I think most 16 and 17 year olds these days will vote for the republicans based on the same studpid reason adults some adults do.

Most 18 to 34 year olds don't bother to vote so why should we lower the voting age? The only reason it was lowered to 18 was because, like drinking,we figured young men and women expected to off to war and die should have those rights.

[JohnKleeb]

42. Yep Ches

I am almost positive that this one kid in my english and philosophy class is one, like hes a nice guy and doesnt mind or maybe he doesnt notice I am left :), I remember this one kid and I should have told y'all because it was a riot, we were doing like aristole or whatever, and we had to put a like whatmacallit, he said I am liberal therefore I am smart, I was like yeah :) to myself.

[Kathleen04]

43. I attend High School...

...with the Christian Right. :puke:
They latch on to wedge issues and use them as a litmus test for how they would vote and almost always fail to see the whole picture..I don't understand it.

[Colin Ex]

44. That's a cop-out.

The issue here isn't what party kids will vote for, but whether or not they should vote. Saying people under 18 shouldn't be able to vote because they'll vote Republican is really unreasonable.

Besides, using your reason expressed in the last paragraph, why let people vote until they're 35? Most of them don't vote anyway, right?

-C

[JohnKleeb]

45. I agree with what people are saying

I think I could compromise with 17 though because that likely would mean all seniors could vote.

[Kathleen04]

48. But..

What about the 16 year old seniors? ;) I actually know a couple.

[alexwcovington]

53. I was one of those

now I'm a 17-year-old college freshman.

[JohnKleeb]

55. Damn I am sorry people

I thought I was young. I am on the lower rung but there are some people who are just turning 16 I guess.

[JohnKleeb]

54. theres such things

*scratches head* well I'll be. I dont care. I just think of seniors being 17 and 18 generally. Its no fair that some of them will be eligile to vote this time next year, and I cant being only 17 by then. Heck I was conceived in late november 1986, so if that mattered lol I wouldnt be able to vote still, thats how young I am for my grade.

[creativelcro]

47. bullshit

frontal lobes are not fully developed until late 20s. I think people should not vote until they are 26.

[alexwcovington]

50. I thought this was supposed to be a Progressive forum

Where we support EXPANDING civil rights.

[SmileyBoy]

58. That's one of the stupidest things I've heard on this forum.

I'm a 21 year-old with an IQ of 143, and I take offense.

[alexwcovington]

62. Hey there NW

Good to see you again :)

[Kathleen04]

61. I thought they were being sarcastic. n/t

[durutti]

49. If you work, you should be able to vote.

You're contributing to society. You should have a voice in how society is run. That's what I think.

[amazona]

51. i tend to agree

I have to presume that neo-cons are for it because they presume teen-agers would vote away their grandparents and great grandparent's safety net. But the way teens are being terrorized today is damned disgraceful, and they have little power to change things without the vote.

[GreenPartyVoter]

52. Anyone willing to post this as a poll?

I'd love to have a quick glance at the yes-no breakdown on this.

[alexwcovington]

56. I'd do it but it would probably look bad.

Maybe JK would be willing.

[JohnKleeb]

57. I'd be willing to but I wont be around that long

I am on my green mile :(, being sick and having to go to work.

[alexwcovington]

60. Ok then...

I'll do it...

[goobergunch]

63. Good idea

Here's a previous discussion on this topic: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=254860

[JohnKleeb]

65. Goober you or Alex do it, or get anyone but me to do it

I gotta go to work :(, but my shift is only 3 hours today though.

[alexwcovington]

64. A poll is up

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=844762

[UrbScotty]

66. Those between ages 16-21 should be allowed to vote IF...

...they can pass a civics-like exam showing that they know enough about their government to vote.

There are many 16-year-olds who hardly know anything about government, besides that their Preasident is George W. Bush (which is debatable).

On the other hand, look at Kleeb, youngred, and Goobergunch!

[ISUGRADIA]

67. And tried as adults at 16 also, that's what Repubs

would demand before alowing any lowering of the age to vote to go through.

[markses]

70. Voting Age should = Tried as an Adult Age

If demented states want to try 11 year-olds as adults, they should give 11 year-olds the right to vote. They argue in court that 11 year-olds can make adult decisions, so why not in the voting booth.