An Irony of Sorts (Kerry and Clark)

[Closer]

I'm MOST certain that an early hope of the Kerry campaign was that when Clark hopped in the race, he'd take votes away from Dean and thus prop Kerry to the top.

I remember it well in September, here at DU, when Clark announced that he would run for President (and incidently that he was a Democrat). Not only did we see an onslaught of new DUers who supported Clark, but we also saw the Kerry supporters displaying utter glee. Many supporters were so positive that Clark would lessen Dean's appeal, that they practically banded together in taking on Dean.

But look what's happened. Just look what's happened. Clark is now poised to take over Kerry in NH, and veritably put to rest Kerry's chances. It's the ultimate irony. In this case, looks like Kerry and his supporters kept their real enemy a little too close.

So I'm just wondering, in retrospect, to many of the Kerry supporters here. Do you regret being so gleeful that Clark entered the race, and consequently going easy on him in posts, and in many cases, writing glowing accounts of him?

Who'd have ever thought?


And now, your thoughts?

[jpgray]

1. Why do Clark and Dean folks hate each other?

I never really understood that--is it because they are the two most numerous on DU and most able to argue?

[Jack_Dawson]

2. It's not hate - Dean's cool

We just really want Bush out of office and see Clark as the best candidate to make it happen.

[robsul82]

34. It's because...

...that the time for love-in threads have ended, now that Clark's gone on record saying "I won't be anyone's VP" and made the "I was healing war wounds while Dean was skiing in Vermont." I guess the noose of desperation has tightened around Clark's neck as well, just a little slower than most.

Later.

RJS

[KittyWampus]

3. This Is Inflammatory- Clark & Kerry Are Quality Candidates

not even a hint of mediocrity in either of them.

May the best man win.

[Closer]

4. Not inflammatory at all.

I never even alluded that either candidate is mediocre.

Sorry you don't have more to contribute. Actually, no I'm not.

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

48. I found it a bit inflammatory

especially when you said that Clark had announced he was a Democrat. You may disagree with it being inflammatory, but it still came across that way to at least a few people.

Just a Dean supports' two cents.

[FrenchieCat]

5. I agree with that...

Plus, this ain't over.....so why those the thread starter acts like it is?????

[xultar]

6. What is it with you guys? Why can't you give it a rest? This horse

has been beaten to a bloody pile of goo!
So are there too many Clarkies and not enough Deanies?
I've even onto the Dean blog and invited Deanies over? Should we send each Deanie 100 buck to join DU so then you can have a Deanie Majority...

What is it? I don't understand why you are behaving in such a manner? The reason Deanies and Clarkies don't get along has to directly with posts like this.

OK you want all of the other supporters to say Dean will win.

OK I'll start
DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN DEAN WILL WIN

Feel better Now you get your bah bah and take a nappy poo and let us adults discuss the issues.

[WilliamPitt]

7. More damaging than anything else

is the glee a lot of people here display, the absolutely shameless joy-dancing that goes on, when one candidate or another trips up or does not do well. The Germans call it Shadenfreude, which loosely translates into taking happiness from another's misery. Beyond sowing divisions within our own ranks, something that will only reap bitterness in the end, it also will make it hard to pull together a unified front when the time comes.

Closer, I'm talking to you. I'm talking to Dean people in general, Clark people in general, Kerry people in general, because no one candidate's supporters here are free from this stain. It's not everyone, but it is indeed a solid few that take great pleasure in pissing on the pre-dug graves of others. One candidate's supporters have not cornered the market on passionate devotion and hope, and when those passions and hopes get mocked, nothing good will come of it.

Let me make a wager. If Dean does capture the nomination, and you come out and do one of these "Fuck you, ha-ha, your candidate sucked and is a loser" shimmies, you're going to make a lot of people sick to their stomachs.

[jpgray]

10. I hate that myself

Exulting in negativity just doesn't ring true to me, and I don't believe it ever will.

[Closer]

12. Well that was a total

non-answer to the post, Will.

And actually Will, you're one of the main guys who did this when Clark came out. I remember GLOWING posts from you about Clark, and yes, I even remember very NEGATIVE posts from you on Dean, very negative in some cases. Eloriel even gave you quite a tongue lashing in some of them. Weren't you one of those who hoped Clark would, in effect, help Kerry?


And if so, do you regret it?

[WilliamPitt]

14. Um...

I was positive about Clark because I thought he would make a fine general election candidate against Bush. I thought that Clark and Kerry in the race would bring foreign policy experience to the fore, which (imho) would have left Dean out in the cold because his lack of said experience. Clearly, my assessment was incorrect, due in no small part to the Dean campaign's pretty remarkable excellence and instant-response message work. The lateness of Clark's entry, coupled with the wheels coming off Kerry's campaign infrastructure, also added to Dean's ability to rise above this for the time being.

As for tongue-lashings, I got those from people who didn't see Clark as having foreign policy experience. These lashings came from Dean supporters who did not enjoy hearing the heretical idea that their candidate is infant-weak in this regard.

[KaraokeKarlton]

24. That's not how it happened, and I recall that thread

Will has been one of the most overall positive posters about all the candidates and I've seen him defend everyone. He gets attacked routinely, why, I'm not sure. It's not fair to paint him with the same brush some others here can be painted with. Will brings a lot of compelling and thought provoking discussion to this site and I'm glad he's here.

I'm the first to admit that I have done plenty of Kerry lampooning on these boards, and I'll probably continue to do it on occassion because I get sick of being told that I don't know my candidate or that I'm like a Nazi or cult member for supporting Dean. I personally don't experience any glee when Kerry does badly, but I do enjoy knowing that those who are calling me names and implying I'm an idiot gets their poetic justice for being such assholes.

As a Dean supporter, I get frustrated as well, but I have to point out that Will Pitt is NOT one of those individuals who behave in the way that induces that frustration.

[Closer]

28. LOL

I'm not bashing Will, whom I have much respect for. And I think he knows that, too.

But I am pointing out the fact, that he DID resort to some rather negative Dean posts at a certain time, and I think he, too, would admit that. You didn't see him disagreeing with me on that post did ya?

Am I saying Pitt is horrible and nasty person? Not a chance.

Am I saying he's human and succumbed to the Anti-Dean/Pro-Clark posts, you bet.

[KaraokeKarlton]

33. He was asking valid questions about some concerns he had

He wasn't being necessarily negative, he had real misgivings that ended up getting straightened out. He did suggest that Clark entering into the race might harm Dean, but he didn't do it in a celebratory fashion. He also learned some things about Dean that he didn't know prior to that thread and I think gained some respect and admiration for Dean that he didn't previously have.

That's the point I'm trying to make. I've never seen him be what I'd call negative...a smart ass, sure, but not negative.

[Closer]

36. Well you missed some posts then

:hi:

I especially remember one where he was having one of his SEVERE bipolar days (love ya Will), and he just went NASTY on Dean.

Eloriel took care of him that day, though. ;-)

[WilliamPitt]

39. $100 to the DUer of your choice says you can't find such a thread

[Closer]

41. Hmm.

You got me there friend.

I just remember it well. Perhaps Eloriel will remember? I dunno.

[WilliamPitt]

44. Find it or back off

Every once in a while, someone will try to paint me as having 'attacked' a candidate. I challenge them to find that attack, and they can never seem to do so...unless they take the rhetorical leap and trsanslate genuine critiques and/or concerns as 'bashing.'

So, Closer, now it's your turn. Find the thread or say you were wrong.

[imhotep]

52. I see passive-aggressive attacks

on Dean through subtle wordings and semantics.
At least Clarkies have the guts to do it in a frank straightforward way.

[xultar]

15. That is why I'm so sure Dean will eventually lose the GE his supporters

will make the rest of us so sick we will back away from the campaign. I know that if Dean wins the nomination my activities for the party will not go past voting. Why? Because I couldn't possibly stand the possibility of having to work with a bunch of screaming children.

[WilliamPitt]

16. Flip the script

If Dean should somehow not get the nmination, will his supporters go with the chosen candidate? Or will they take their ball and go home. Paging Closer...

[Closer]

18. It depends on how said candidate campaigns

If he/she campaigned wherein BushCo. set the parameters (like Kerry announcing his candidacy against a carrier backdrop, or Clark talking about how the military is the answer) then no, I won't.


If, however, the candidate campaigns with a NEW message, in effect, setting the parameters AGAINST BushCo. (much like Dean is doing today in a SC speech) then yes, I would vote for him/her.


Unfortunately, the only other candidate I can see doing this is Kucinich, maybe Edwards.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Closer]

22. Nice personal attack Xultar

And again, why am I not suprised? :shrug:

[xultar]

25. I'm not attacking, I just said you were a kid..So, how old are ya?

If I'm wrong, I will apologize.

[Closer]

30. Umm

"So you can't read nor understand the english languange when it is spoken." is saying I'm a kid?

Funny, because to me, resorting to such a personal attack speaks volumes on the attacker's age :hi:

[KaraokeKarlton]

27. It depends on if someone actually beats Dean and earns the nomination

or if strings are pulled and super delegates are used to betray the voters.

I have to tell you that if the party leadership pulls some kind of stunt to prevent Dean from getting the nomination if the people choose him, I will be voting 3rd party, even if it means Bush wins. If the party does that to America, they deserve 4 more years of the squatter in chief. This country can't take another stolen election.

If someone beats Dean, fair and square, they will have my vote.

[realFedUp]

51. I think you know the answer to that question

We all intend to vote for the Dem who wins
the nomination. I resent anyone intimating
they'll someone will vote for Bush over the Dem nominee.

[Closer]

17. Well that would certainly

be the sound thing to do. :eyes:


Not vote in the General Election because passionate Dean folks repulse you. Voila, 4 more years of Bush.


But why am I not surprised that certain folks would say such a thing?

[xultar]

23. Let me help you with the big words...I said

I know that if Dean wins the nomination my activities for the party will not go past voting.

[mitchum]

29. and don't feel bad for that, xultar...

(I know that I won't) Our votes are priceless and far more valuable than legwork and money

[xultar]

35. I was so excited though. It is funny but for some reason and I don't

know why but Clark...got me off my ass. I've been voting for years...but it was Clark who got me to give time outside of voting.

So, imagine how excited I was preparing to work my ass off and give $$$ for the first time. I was concerned at first because I was like ok, I'm gonna give my money and time to clark and he won't win the nom. Well that's o.k. I can work for the candidate...now I'm so disgusted I don't want to do any work. I feel that alot of people here @ DU have taken that from me and that PISSES me off!!!

When I come here and read the posts from radical Deanies, Clarkies and others it really pisses me off. I even made a post on the Clark blog for people to behave in a way that was respectful of our candidate Clark because we drug him and his family into this race.

[TexasPatriot]

45. i couldnt agree more

i think a majority of the supporters for each candidate have more than a little to be upset about by the actions of a few of their supporters, but i have a feeling more than a few of those guys are just flamebaiting pubs anyhow.

the florida event yesterday showed us what happens when the opposing groups actually meet IRL - they all get along just fine.

[Jacobin]

8. Yeah, but according to Pitt, Kerry has a brain freeze, so he's better

[WilliamPitt]

11. WTF does that mean?

[xultar]

13. Someone woke the children a little early from their nap...that is

when kids are @ their Crankiest...you can tell by these posts.
I think there should be a maturity test given to DUers, if you don't pass you can only read, not post.

[Egnever]

26. I find it extremely amusing

You ask for a maturity test after two posts calling people children with no other offer of anything to adress the post.

[xultar]

31. There's nothing there to address...

I'm MOST certain that an early hope of the Kerry campaign was that when Clark hopped in the race, he'd take votes away from Dean and thus prop Kerry to the top. (NEED PROOF)(edit bold)

I remember it well in September, here at DU, when Clark announced that he would run for President (and incidently that he was a Democrat). Not only did we see an onslaught of new DUers who supported Clark, but we also saw the Kerry supporters displaying utter glee. Many supporters were so positive that Clark would lessen Dean's appeal, that they practically banded together in taking on Dean. (OK Closer has only been a member since 9/24/03 how you know that there weren't already alot of people who were clark supporters but didn't say so till he announced? Even if you lurked you still wouldn't know for sure. It takes time to get to know people...plus there were other lurkers like me.)

But look what's happened. Just look what's happened. Clark is now poised to take over Kerry in NH, and veritably put to rest Kerry's chances. It's the ultimate irony. In this case, looks like Kerry and his supporters kept their real enemy a little too close. (Now you are saying that other Democrats are the enemy...That is pretty over the top)

So I'm just wondering, in retrospect, to many of the Kerry supporters here. Do you regret being so gleeful that Clark entered the race, and consequently going easy on him in posts, and in many cases, writing glowing accounts of him? (Kerry supporters going easy on Clark in Posts, OK so now you are putting words in peoples mouth. You're a member of the psychic friends network and you know that for sure.)

That's why there is no need to address

[Closer]

38. Oh geez

But look what's happened. Just look what's happened. Clark is now poised to take over Kerry in NH, and veritably put to rest Kerry's chances. It's the ultimate irony. In this case, looks like Kerry and his supporters kept their real enemy a little too close. (Now you are saying that other Democrats are the enemy...That is pretty over the top)

Oh Please! I mean enemy only in terms of Political opponent. I used the word to fit the known saying "keeping your enemy close at hand". I of course didn't mean ENEMY like, they're bad guys. Utter rubbish. You're really reaching here.

edit: Xultar, why don't you do ME a favor, and add me BACK to your ignore list. Thanks. :hi:

[kiahzero]

42. That's good

Oh Please! I mean enemy only in terms of Political opponent. I used the word to fit the known saying "keeping your enemy close at hand". I of course didn't mean ENEMY like, they're bad guys. Utter rubbish. You're really reaching here.

I'm glad you don't think Clark is an enemy... can we see this kind of tolerance in your other posts?

[WilliamPitt]

43. No, he's reading your post

If you don't want people to believe you think fellow Democrats aren't the enemy, you shouldn't type the words, "In this case, looks like Kerry and his supporters kept their real enemy a little too close." That's a straight read, Closer. If you want people to read nuance into your words, work on being a more nuanced writer.

[xultar]

49. I never ignore a fans request...Done! I'm gonna miss ya n/t

[Scott Lee]

53. I believe that was a response to your "Cold anger" post.

[Cocoa]

9. no one went easy on Clark

I recall a huge backlash against Clark when he first entered. I think it has eased because he's being more open and detailed with his views. At first he was very vague and mysterious, I know in my case that caused a lot of mistrust. Another thing that has decreased the hostility is that his supporters have been behaving themselves, or else the most obnoxious of the supporters got banned.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

19. The only person who wins

when Democrats argue the merits of their respective candidates is G W Bush. Showing unseemly behavior towards another candidate or his/her backers isn't helping any Democrat. Personally, I support Dean because of his appeal to Americans to take back their country, but if Gen. Clark gets the nod, then I'm working very hard to get him elected. If it turns out to be John Kerry, them I'm Kerry all the way. If it turns out to be any of the candidates, I will back them, because the most vital thing to be done is to get rid of Bush.

[DrFunkenstein]

20. I Happen To Think Clark Is A Decent Guy, So Why Rip Him Up?

I think that Kerry is by far the best candidate for the job, if only because he has BOTH foreign policy and domestic policy experience - not to mention that he is the closest thing to a true progressive we are likely to get in the next 12 years.

I rip Dean because he has always been nasty to Kerry, and his supporters nastier still. And because I feel down in my bones that Bush will chew Dean up in about a weekend, and that is truly a nightmare scenario.

But Clark is a decent and respectful person, much like Edwards, and since I don't bash candidates just to forward my own (unlike some folks around here), I see no point in doing so. Although a Kerry loss would be a disappointment, because he is truly the best man for the job, a Clark win would be a fair choice in my book.

[xultar]

32. Why not, I find it funny that I have actually grown to like more

of the candidates than I did when I arrived. Kerry, Kucinich, Braun, Sharpton, Gephardt, Edwards, and Dean. (sorry Lieberman supporters, Joe isn't it for me) I voice my respect for each of the candidates and their policies when it is warranted. I very rarely see any of that from others.

Supporters can and will make the difference for alot of us older folks when it gets down to the wire. Just be aware that a candidates supporters and their behaviors are key to a successful run in ways that you'll never expect.

[Donna Zen]

50. Switch the order of the names and I'm with you!

Dr. F. you do post supportive threads about your candidate, and I appreciate that. I come here for information not confrontation.

Nevertheless, when I click on General Discussion, an act I perform more and more in trepidation, I am faced with reworded but the same ol' same ol'. Lies and spin make me wild! I should probably develop some resistors, and yet, letting the trash add up uncontested doesn't present a viable option.

The candidates have put their names forward and deserve a hearing not a smearing. Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt have voted time and again for our causes, even when those issues were unpopular. And let's look at Lieberman, who remains near the bottom of my list, but branding him BFEE is to negate his votes that reflect our values. There are some posters at DU who if their wishes were granted, would leave us with perhaps 20 people in the congress who have met the purity test. As Hilary said this morning, when the GOP are setting the agenda all that the Dems can do is react. Zell, a person we may all disagree with, filled a seat with a D and gave us a brief majority. Disagreement is one thing, disparagement is quite a different matter.

I do disagree with Gov. Dean on many issues, but keeping myself focused on the real Dean and not the one represented by some on DU is increasingly becoming a dilemma for me. Yes, I will vote "D" but can I fight for the cause with Dean on the ticket in my right-wing community? I will because if I have to, and clearing my mind of the slurs and gutter politics directed at General Clark will be difficult. Clark's life story is amazing to me. But at the very least the man deserves and has earned some respect even from those who fundamentally disagree with his chosen path. I wonder if those who denigrate his very existence could have done half as much, starting with twice as much as life offered him? I have my doubts.

[xultar]

37. Just in case you missed it...I'm addressing the post directly here...

I'm MOST certain that an early hope of the Kerry campaign was that when Clark hopped in the race, he'd take votes away from Dean and thus prop Kerry to the top. (NEED PROOF)

I remember it well in September, here at DU, when Clark announced that he would run for President (and incidently that he was a Democrat). Not only did we see an onslaught of new DUers who supported Clark, but we also saw the Kerry supporters displaying utter glee. (So no one can be happy that a good candidate enters the race...my bad didn't know. Many supporters were so positive that Clark would lessen Dean's appeal, that they practically banded together in taking on Dean. (OK Closer you've only been a member since 9/24/03. How you know that there weren't already alot of people who were clark supporters but didn't say so till he announced? Even if you lurked you still wouldn't know for sure. It takes time to get to know people...plus there were other lurkers like me and I didn't open up until October so I'm part of the undesired Clark supporters that showed, sorry to wreck your fun)

But look what's happened. Just look what's happened. Clark is now poised to take over Kerry in NH, and veritably put to rest Kerry's chances. It's the ultimate irony. In this case, looks like Kerry and his supporters kept their real enemy a little too close. (Now you are saying that other Democrats are the enemy...That is pretty over the top and not very, how do I say it, DEMOCRATIC of you.)

So I'm just wondering, in retrospect, to many of the Kerry supporters here. Do you regret being so gleeful that Clark entered the race, and consequently going easy on him in posts, and in many cases, writing glowing accounts of him? (Kerry supporters going easy on Clark in Posts, OK so now you are putting words in peoples mouth. You're a member of the psychic friends network and you know that for sure.)

[IranianDemocrat]

40. Alerting-There is no point of this thread other than to start a flamefest.

.

[jpgpenn]

46. Never has been tension between Kerry and Clark

or their supporters for that matter. This post is out of line and designed to cause negative words.

[XanaDUer]

47. I am a Kerry supporter,

and I was not "gleeful" when Clark entered the race, because I think Clark is a fine candidate whom I would happily vote for.

[Moderator]

54. Locking...

This is inflammatory.


DU Moderator