Days Of Deceit: Pearl Harbor was a 'LIHOP' was 911

[bpilgrim]

Poll question: Days Of Deceit: Pearl Harbor was a 'LIHOP' was 911

It has now been shown that not only did we KNOW the japanese we steaming accross the pacific to attack us but that we also had plans to PROVOKE them into doing so which is all well documented in this book...

Day Of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor



In Day of Deceit, Robert Stinnett delivers the definitive final chapter on America's greatest secret and our worst military disaster. Drawing on twenty years of research and access to scores of previously classified documents, Stinnett proves that Pearl Harbor was not an accident, a mere failure of American intelligence, or a brilliant Japanese military coup. By showing that ample warning of the attack was on FDR's desk and, furthermore, that a plan to push Japan into war was initiated at the highest levels of the U.S. government, he ends up profoundly altering our understanding of one of the most significant events in American history.


more...

there is also a copy of the 8 point plan here...
http://globalfreepress.com/images/perl_harbor/recomondations/

For more information on 911 visit http://GlobalFreePress.net which has tons of useful resources and links to other great sites with info on the matter.

For those who are still undecided check out what happened to WTC7 on 911 that i am sure you never see on teeVee...
http://globalfreepress.net/911/wt7/flash_8fps/wtc7.8fps.swf
(requires the flash plugin)

fyi: GFP is working on a new flash called 'TRIFECTA' that will touch on bush family history starting with wwII, then JFK and finally 911 we will close with bushes charecterization of that day...



June 14, 2002
Remarks by the President in Texans for Rick Perry Reception
Hyatt Regency Hotel
Houston, Texas
6:09 P.M. CDT
<clip>
You know, when I was one time campaigning in Chicago, a reporter said, would you ever have a deficit? And I said, I can't imagine it, but there would be one if we had a war, or a national emergency, or a recession. (Laughter.) Never did I dream we'd get the trifecta. (Laughter.)
<clip>
<http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/06/20020614-8.html>

http://globalfreepress.com/mp3/trifecta.mp3

will post here when it is finished :hi:

peace

[J B]

1. Finally today I read a detailed rebuttal of this book.

And I find the rebuttal very compelling. Just because you intercept messages doesn't mean you know how to decipher them or have done so....

So intercepting lots of messages and not being able to do anything with them does not constitute advanced warning.

[bpilgrim]

6. it is more than just that

we had a PLAN to provoke the japanese to attack us.

i find it highly doubtful that the japanese could sneak across the largest ocean in the world when we were not only proding them to but also reading their mail.

got a link i would love to see it first hand :hi:

btw: good to see you J B

peace

[Silverhair]

21. In 1941, sneaking across the Pacific was actually fairly easy.

Radar has just been invented and had limited usage and limited range.

The human eye was the primary tool of recon.

There were no long range recon flights out of any our our bases. Effective long range visual recon flights are expensive to maintain, and this was a time of very tight military budgets.

Ships, then as now, sail in shipping lanes. If you are 40 miles outside the shipping lane, you will not be seen by the eye.

A big ocean is easier to hide in than a small ocean.

So all they had to was sail well away from the shipping lanes. It was that easy, and that's what they did.

We were not reading the Japanese "mail", yet. We were trying, but without success. Even during Midway, we were only getting one word in ten. Midway was easier to duduce because they had already captured everything else and Midway was needed. They were mentioning "Objective AF" a lot. We had Midway send a clear message about the water supply and then picked from their message that AF had a water problem. That kind of stuff wasn't available prewar as the Japanese commanders could speak by secure land line phones to their staff, and orders could be hand delivered.

[bpilgrim]

26. we were reading their messages and we were expecting them

as proven by the documents cited in the book.

to think that you can then still sail a huge armada across the pacific that we are expecting with out notice is a bit of a streach, imo.

anyways, i wouldn't mind looking at material that refutes the documents refered to in his book.

:hi:

peace

[JohnyCanuck]

110. Was Red Cross warned in advance to be prepared for Pearl strike?

The daughter of the man who directed the war service for the Red Cross in WWII says Yes.


A previously unsubstantiated report that President Franklin D. Roosevelt requested the national office of the American Red Cross to send medical supplies secretly to Pearl Harbor in advance of the 7 December 1941 Japanese attack is beginning to look much more feasible.

Don C. Smith, who directed the War Service for the Red Cross before World War II and was deputy administrator of services to the armed forces from 1942 to 1946, when he became administrator, apparently knew about the timing of the Pearl Harbor attack in advance. Unfortunately, Smith died in 1990 at age 98. But when his daughter, Helen E. Hamman, saw news coverage of efforts by the families of Husband Kimmel and Walter Short to restore the two Pearl Harbor commanders posthumously to what the families contend to be their deserved ranks, she wrote a letter to President Bill Clinton on 5 September 1995. Recalling a conversation with her father, Hamman wrote:

. . . Shortly before the attack in 1941 President Roosevelt called him to the White House for a meeting concerning a Top Secret matter. At this meeting the President advised my father that his intelligence staff had informed him of a pending attack on Pearl Harbor, by the Japanese. He anticipated many casualties and much loss, he instructed my father to send workers and supplies to a holding area at a P.O.E. on the West Coast where they would await further orders to ship out, no destination was to be revealed. He left no doubt in my father's mind that none of the Naval and Military officials in Hawaii were to be informed and he was not to advise the Red Cross officers who were already stationed in the area. When he protested to the President, President Roosevelt told him that the American people would never agree to enter the war in Europe unless they were attack within their own borders.

. . . He was privy to Top Secret operations and worked directly with all of our outstanding leaders. He followed the orders of his President and spent many later years contemplating this action which he considered ethically and morally wrong.

Above quote from an article posted at Naval History Magazine's web site:
www.usni.org/navalhistory/Articles99/NHborgquist.htm

[AP]

140. FDR didn't need an excuse to get involved in WWII like Pearl Harbor.

I'm just guessing, but the guy was a fantastic, brilliant, compelling politician, who'd already won two elections.

If he needed to talk America into WWII, he would have.

He was very attuned to the dangers of fascism and imperial dictatorships with anti-liberal aims.

He could have articulated the threat in a way to which the public would have been receptive.

[MadHound]

143. You're mistaken on that count AP,

FDR did need an excuse. There was a strong, right wing(even facist) element in this country that was very, very isolationist. Some of this mindset was simply that the horrors of WWI were too fresh in many memories, another part was that they didn't want anything to do with European quagmires, and a third part was that there were many many people here in America who were on the side of the facists.

The US Nazi party was the third largest political party throughout the thirties, only tailing out after the more aggressive moves were performed by Germany. In fact there were big name backers of facism openly supporting Hitler, including Henry Ford, Charles Lindburgh, and Chimpy's own grandfather, Prescott Bush. Lots of money was to be made by trading with a newly militant Germany, by the likes of such companies as Ford, IBM, and US Steel, among others. Plus there was a large first and second generation group of German Americans who were reluctant to attack Germany.

In fact the situation was so bad that US ships that were carrying Lend-Lease goods were regularly sunk in the Atlantic by German U-boats, and the response both on Capital Hill and among the population in general was a big yawn.

So in fact, FDR did need something big and dramatic to leverage the US into the war. Pearl Harbor provided the impetous.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

55. Oh, please. Give me a break. Another "Pearl Harbor was really...

...a sneak attack" apologist.

Did you even READ the book?

[dobak]

57. probably not

The book is published by a known RW hack publisher who only cares about sales.

[bpilgrim]

59. all you got is the publisher is on the right?

anything on the author though i would prefer documentation that refutes his message.

peace

[William Seger]

88. Well, there's also the fact that Mr. Stinnett is very deceitful himself

Stinnett's "methodology" seems to be exactly like the JFK assassination conspiracy hucksters.

http://www.usncva.org/books/book-10.html

http://www.independent.org/tii/news/030127StinnettBudiansky.html

http://archive.salon.com/books/feature/2001/06/14/fdr/index1.html

http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=14421


On edit: Read the Salon article first for a good overview, then the other articles for the authoritative basis of that review.

[bpilgrim]

101. i am reading the salon article now

thanks for the links...

" After noting several incidents that prove little more than that there could have been a late transmission on Nov. 26, Stinnett goes on to say that he, the intrepid investigator, discovered 129 intercept reports that indicate that the Japanese didn't maintain radio silence during the approach to Hawaii. (None of them are reproduced in the book.) Stinnett then blandly states that these intercepts came from a three-week period from Nov. 15 to Dec. 6. In other words, all of them could have been obtained before the fleet ever left Japanese waters, and before radio silence was imposed. I don't know how Stinnett could believe that his readers wouldn't notice this critical detail, but then, most of the book displays little respect for our intelligence."

i have no idea what he is talking about here since we were attacked on the 7th and it takes much longer to steam accross the pacific than one day.

i also notice a strong bias against this author in almost every sentence there is either an iderect or overt put down on the author which causes me think this is a hatchet job.

but anyways i will read the links and appreciate your post, thanks :toast;

peace

[bpilgrim]

102. he has presented evidence that we were reading their messages

Translation of Intelligence Report of Radio Dispatch (Serial #291029)
Issued by Lt. John M. Lietwiler, Commanding Officer, Station CAST (COM16), Corregidor
Saturday, November 29, 1941, 1029 hours, Greenwich Time (6:29 p.m., Manila Time)

http://www.independent.org/tii/news/030225Stinnett.html

No one has a problem that we were monitoring them before PH but folks have a problem with us knowing they were steaming accross the pacific though i must admit that i have a problem with that and to find out we were reading their messages as well.

the author points out that even to this very day recently released info on that period is being reclassified and that no one has been able to see into our code breaking operations prior to Dec 7.

i also find it interesting that his critics acknowledge that we WERE reading their messages the next month but find it hard to believe we may have been reading them a month before.

still reading...

peace

[William Seger]

112. "Evidence"?

Sorry, but Stinnett gives every appearance of being a hack and a huckster. He answers serious charges against his book with lame dodges:

http://www.independent.org/tii/news/030127StinnettBudiansky.html

Stephen Budiansky:

A far worse failing of Mr. Stinnett’s methodology is his practice of misrepresenting—or more often, simply ignoring—the overwhelming body of evidence that directly challenges his specific assertions. Mr. Stinnett has yet to even acknowledge the existence of the substantial, contemporaneous documentary evidence which shows unequivocally that the crucial Japanese naval codes were not successfully broken by the United States before the Pearl Harbor attack—evidence, in other words, that directly refutes the central claim of his book that the United States had, through cryptologic means, obtained secret advance knowledge of the Japanese plans. The documentary evidence that he does cite in his book is frequently taken out of context or quoted incompletely or inaccurately in an attempt to make it seem as if it supports his conspiratorial theories, when in fact it does nothing of the kind. For example:

• He portrays records that reflect nothing more than the fact that certain coded Japanese messages were intercepted by U.S. radio operators as if they were evidence that the messages were also decrypted and read by U.S. intelligence.
  
  
• He presents decrypts and translations of pre-Pearl Harbor Japanese messages that were made by U.S. intelligence only in 1945 and 1946—after the war was over and the U.S. codebreakers had time to go back and study them in light of their subsequent cryptologic success—and tries to pass them off as decrypts and translations made at the time the signals were originally transmitted, before the Pearl Harbor attack.
  
  
• He seriously misquotes a late November 1941 U.S. Navy radio intelligence report—the words he places in quotation marks are altered significantly from the words that actually appear in the document he claims to be citing—to create the impression that the Japanese carrier fleet heading for Pearl Harbor broke radio silence, and thus could have been located by U.S. radio direction-finding stations. The document in fact states only that another Japanese naval unit (not part of the Pearl Harbor task force) had transmitted a message or messages to the carrier fleet. This is completely consistent with the testimony of Japanese naval officers involved in the Pearl Harbor attack, who have stated that they maintained strict radio silence.
  
  
• He uses selective quotation to make it appear that U.S. Navy personnel in the Philippines had already broken the main Japanese naval operations code in November 1941 when in fact the statement actually refers to the (as of then far from successful) American efforts to recover the 50,000 five-digit numerals in the code’s key book, which first had to be reconstructed before any message texts could be deciphered.
  

Mr. Stinnett’s response to all of these criticisms has been to simply ignore their substance. When challenged at public forums where he has appeared to promote his book, the sum total of his defense against his critics has been to assert—literally—“I’m right and they’re wrong.”

[bpilgrim]

113. the link i posted contained documentation from that era

that indicates we had broke their codes.

that 'rebuttal' provides no quotes or documentation just isolated accuzations with nothing to back them up.

i provided a link to actual documents that back up his central point that we had cracked their codes and were actively monitoring their transmissions.

he also pointed out how many of the documents have been reclassified and that no one knows about the state of our code breaking program prior to dec 7 41.

he presents enough evidence for me to be suspicious to say the least.

peace

[William Seger]

118. From that same debate

As anyone who reads these sources will discover, Mr. Stinnett’s frequent, pat answer to any and all criticisms—that his critics are relying on “a 1950s version of events”—is simply wrong. The major evidence that refutes Mr. Stinnett’s claim that the main Japanese naval code was broken before Pearl Harbor (and that a government “coverup” continues) comes from archival documents that were declassified in 1999, which I have described in full in my above-mentioned publications. These documents consist of contemporaneous reports made by U.S. codebreakers at the time in question, in particular a series of date-stamped, month-by-month progress reports filed by the U.S. Navy codebreaking bureau throughout 1940 and 1941. These give a monthly tally of precisely how many code groups had been recovered in every code system being studied at the time. They show unambiguously that only a very small percentage of code group recoveries had been made in the Japanese naval operations code by the time of the Pearl Harbor attack in December 1941, nowhere near enough to produce useful intelligence from the messages themselves.

Reviewing the large body of recently declassified materials in the National Archives, Philip Jacobsen has located the earliest of the actual decoded messages that U.S. codebreakers were able to produce from their cryptologic attack on this code system. The decoded messages are dated and sequentially numbered. Decrypt #1 bears a decryption and translation date of January 8, 1942—in other words, a full month after the Pearl Harbor attack.

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bpilgrim]

122. i linked to documentation from Nov 41 that talks about reading their MSG

Translation of Intelligence Report of Radio Dispatch (Serial #291029)
Issued by Lt. John M. Lietwiler, Commanding Officer, Station CAST (COM16), Corregidor
Saturday, November 29, 1941, 1029 hours, Greenwich Time (6:29 p.m., Manila Time)

http://www.independent.org/tii/news/030225Stinnett.html

and your own critic has no problem thinking we only started breaking their code a month after PH even though all information on our code breaking prior to dec 7 41 remains to this day SECRET.

as i said, the back bone of his book is that we could read their msg and he provides documents that appear to back him up yet the best his critics can do is attack him and not explain the documents he presents or the lack of information prior to dec 7 41.

AND many f the recently released docs have been reclassified. any reasonable person would be very suspicious considering the evidence that has been presented and the continued secrecy sorounding our code breaking program back then.

peace

[William Seger]

136. Budiansky answered that

"Mr. Stinnett cites the Lietwiler memorandum as proof that Station CAST was “current” in reading messages transmitted in the Japanese naval operations code in fall 1941. Here Mr. Stinnett continues his habit of incompletely quoting original documents. In fact Lietwiler refers not to the decryption of current traffic but rather to the massive and far from complete effort to reconstruct the code system itself, specifically the “current” version of its huge key book—a series of 50,000 random numbers that Japanese code clerks used to further disguise encoded messages before transmission. Far from showing that messages were being decoded by CAST at this time, it confirms that CAST in fact had a long way to go before any messages could be decoded at all. CAST personnel have stated repeatedly that their work was not far enough along to read any messages for intelligence value before Pearl Harbor. Are we to assume that they are all participants in the “cover up” too?"

And of course, there's the equally important issue of whether there was really any radio traffic to decrypt coming from the fleet that attacked Pearl Harbor. Stinnett fails to provide convincing evidence that there was any, or that it could have been decrypted.

[bpilgrim]

141. here is the translation...

Translation:

Station CAST has intercepted, decoded, and translated the encrypted names of Japanese naval forces which have been obtained from radio intelligence messages the past two days. From these intercepted radio dispatches, we have identified these naval forces as follows: First Patrol Force with headquarters apparently at Yokosuka, Japan or Palau in Western Caroline Islands. We have also identified other naval forces as Fifth Air Battalion based at Takao, Formosa, Commander of Airborne Troops whose location is undetermined. French IndoChina Billeting Detachment is located in the Saigon area. Third Fleet headquarters is probably at Yokosuka.

We have intercepted, decoded, and translated a radio dispatch from the Commander-in-Chief of the Imperial Japanese Navy’s Third Fleet who reported via radio channels that he was changing flagships by transferring from the Japanese heavy cruiser the HIJMS Ashigara to the light cruiser, HIJMS Nagara. The Commander-in-Chief of the Southern Expeditionary Fleet also reported changing flagships. He transferred from the light cruiser HIJMS Kashii to the heavy cruiser HIJMS Chokai. This should be considered a tentative identification.

We have identified radio messages from the following Japanese warship commands. These messages place the vessels in the area of Takao, Formosa, as new arrivals from Japan. We have added them to the major Japanese Task Force which is currently forming in the Takao region. We first identified the formation of this Task Force in my radio dispatch of November 26, 1941, at 1331 hours <1:31 PM>, Greenwich Meridian Time (#261331). We refer to this Task Force as Section One. These newly arrived forces include Destroyer Squadron Four, Air Squadron aboard the aircraft tender HIJMS Chitose, and one command that appears to be a submarine squadron.

The Japanese battleships HIJMS Hiyei and HIJMS Kongo now appear definitely associated with these units in the First Section, but no movement of these two battleships has been detected from radio intelligence.

From communication intelligence we have intercepted, decoded, and translated a radio message from the Commander-in-Chef of Japan’s Second Fleet, Admiral Mineichi Koga, who translated a radio message to key Japanese naval radio stations and to Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto, the Commander-in-Chief of the Imperial Japanese Navy. In this intercepted message, the Commander of the Second Fleet disclosed that he plans to depart the Kure Naval Base in the Island Sea of Japan at 0400 hours <4:00 a.m.> today, November 29, 1941, and lead his force to Bako Naval Base in the Pescadores Islands off Formosa. Admiral Koga expects to be in the vicinity of Sasebo Naval Base on the island of Kyushu at midnight, December 1, 1941, and expects to enter Bako Naval Base at midnight December 2, 1941.

http://www.independent.org/tii/news/030225Stinnett.html

link to actual msg...
http://www.independent.org/tii/news/030204Stinnett.html

looks like they were decoding msg very well BEFORE the attack

peace

[William Seger]

147. "Translation"?!

You're kidding, right? Did you happen to note that the phrase "intercepted, decoded, and translated" only appears in Stinnett's "translation", not anywhere in that document? Why is that? Where is the proof that there was any meaningful decryption of the Japanese military code that was in use at that time? (Then you still need to prove there was anything to decrypt that would have told them Pearl was about to be attacked, but that isn't really important until you prove that Lietwiler was decrypting military code.)

[bpilgrim]

148. yes a translation from the military jargon of MILITARY intercepts

dated prior to Dec. 7 41 from an officer responcible for intel.

not to mention all the secrecy that STILL surrounds our code breaking efforts prior to Dec 7 leads me to belive that one they WERE reading their msg and that we are covering that up.

look even the commanding officers of that time have been exonerated by the u.s. senate in 1999 and more and more info is comming out that shows we prodded the japanese to make the first move and the political situation at home coupled with the real horrors of fascism justified his tacitics.

it's been over 60 years it is time for the truth to be told... ESPECIALLY now.

peace

[William Seger]

149. Nonsense; there's no "jargon" there to "translate"

If you see some "jargon" in that document that can be "translated" as meaning "intercepted, decrypted, and translated", please tell me what it is.

It certainly appears to me that what you really have there is evidence that Stinnett is an outright fraud.

Anyway, as fascinating as it may be what "leads" you and Stinnett to "believe" we were decrypting Japanese military code, where is the evidence that you promised? Believe it or not, I'm quite willing to be convinced that what Stinnett is saying is true -- if and only if there's some credible evidence that it's true. Where is it?

[bpilgrim]

150. "TRANSLATION TODAY FROM CINC SECOND FLEET TO KEY RADIO STAIONS"

2nd msg (bottom of page) 6th line...

Intelligence Report of Radio Dispatch (Serial #291029)
Issued by Lt. John M. Lietwiler, Commanding Officer, Station CAST (COM16), Corregidor
Saturday, November 29, 1941, 1029 hours, Greenwich Time (6:29 p.m., Manila Time)

http://www.independent.org/tii/news/030204Stinnett.html

CINC is jargon and the short chopy msg of the military is what i was refering to anyways.

peace

[William Seger]

151. Uh, yeah, CINC looks like "jargon"...

... which Stinett apparently translates as Commmander-in-Chief of the Imperial Japanese Navy. Beats me if that's correct, but it's hardly relevant to the issue. And even if the message were not encrypted at all, it would need to be translated, so the reference to "translation" certainly doesn't settle the issue, either. Perhaps I should have been more clear: Where is the "jargon" that you said Stinnett "translates" as "intercepted, decrypted, and translated?" It sure seems to me that you and he are simply begging the question -- simply assuming the very thing that you're claiming this document proves.

[bpilgrim]

152. it is and the military short cryptic style needs to be translated as well

also keep in mind that this message was transmitted by Lt. John Lietwiler and his brilliant U.S. naval CRYPTO staff of Station CAST on Corregidor Island.

can ANYONE explain WHY the folks who need the information we had on japanese intentions most, kimmel and short, were not notified?

Goering: Admiral's son wages own war

Kimmel is the only surviving son of Adm. Husband Kimmel, who was commander in chief of the United States and Pacific Fleets when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor 62 years ago this morning. For many of those 62 years, Ned Kimmel, a retired lawyer living in Delaware, has been waging a battle of his own -- to vindicate his father.

That's why Ned Kimmel was on the telephone. Topeka lawyer Chuck McAtee, a longtime acquaintance, had sent Kimmel a copy of a story about a Topeka man who claims to have seen a U.S. intelligence message dated Dec. 5, 1941, that said the Japanese naval fleet had been located, implying an attack on Pearl Harbor was imminent.

Jeff Nash, the Topeka man, had been shown the document by his father, Chief Petty Officer Charles Nash Jr., who worked in the communications center in Hawaii and who forwarded the message to the War Department in Washington.

The message, however, wasn't relayed back to Adm. Kimmel or Gen. Walter Short, the commander of the U.S. ground forces in the Pacific.

more...
http://www.cjonline.com/stories/120703/col_goering.shtml

peace
peace

[William Seger]

153. The ol' Conspiracy Shell Game, huh?

So, what Stinnett fraudulently claimed was "a plan to push Japan into war [which] was initiated at the highest levels of the U.S. government" turns out to be nothing but an obscure memo from a mid-level functionary who nobody every heard of. And although this memo clearly states that it's a set of recommendations intended to contain Japan and prevent a hookup with Germany and Italy through Asia, Stinnett assures us it's really a "plan to push Japan into war" because it contains the offhand comment that if it should provoke Japan into attacking, then "so much the better" -- a phrase which actually disproves Stinnett's contention. And then it turns out that nowhere in this blockbuster revelation is there any evidence that anyone "at the highest levels of the U.S. government" even read this memo.

Then, when you assure us "we were reading their messages and we were expecting them, as proven by the documents cited in the book," it turns out that the "proof" requires Stinnett to fraudulently insert the phrase "decrypted" into his "translation" of a single document, which contains information so routine that it might not have been encrypted at all, or if it was, in some code that we had cracked, not JN-25B. Then the "proof" that "we were expecting them" -- presumably because the attack was revealed in broken radio silence -- turns out to be a completely fraudulent misrepresentation of information that proves absolutely nothing of the sort. After being promised evidence, we are required to accept Stinnett's "translation" and unsubstantiated suspicions, while ignoring the actual evidence of a detailed record of the progress in breaking JN-25B, which records the first decoded message a full month after Pearl Harbor. And then you tell us that when Stinnett claims there's "overwhelming evidence" of translations before December 7, it turns out that what he really means is that all the "evidence" must still buried in secrecy, somewhere, apparently as "evidenced" by the secrecy itself!

Then, after all this historical fraud is pointed out, you would like to change the subject, to discuss "a Topeka man who claims to have seen a U.S. intelligence message dated Dec. 5, 1941 ... implying an attack on Pearl Harbor was imminent." Apparently, you are of the opinion that if nobody can prove the message didn't even exist or explain why this alleged message wasn't delivered to Kimmel (other than the obvious possibility: because it didn't exist), then this alleged message must be taken as yet more "evidence" that "FDR knew."

And after going around the barn a few times about the absurdity of calling that "evidence" and requiring anyone to prove it's non-existence, you'll now doubt have some more "proof" that needs to be debunked.

And then sooner or later you'll be right back to telling us what a wonderful job Stinnett did of "proving" his assertions in his book, and someone will have to go through the whole pile of bullshit again to prove that Stinnett is a fraud and a huckster.

You claim to be on a quest for "truth", but then, just like all conspiracy "buffs", when the truth refuses to agree with you, you pummel it mercilessly.

[WoodrowFan]

133. You're Wasting your breath dude.

These guys know the 'truth' and if you argue with them you just prove youre the brainwashed one. Might as well argue creationism with a Bob Jones Univ grad!

[William Seger]

138. Changing THEIR minds is not really the objective

Yes, these fish are already hooked and reeled in. The point is to warn others to beware of hucksters like Stinnett and check it out for themselves.

[bpilgrim]

145. MAGIC was the codename for the secret American reading of the Japanese

MAGIC was the codename for the secret American reading of the Japanese diplomatic and spy communications prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor.

The importance of MAGIC was explained by the head of Army intelligence, General Miles, and the Joint Congressional Committee (JCC) Chief Assistant Counsel Gesell as,

“...the most reliable and authentic information which the War Department was receiving as to Japanese intentions and activities (2PHA792.) . . .and that some of these messages. . .were not of a diplomatic nature, they were of a military nature.” (2PHA793)

The importance of MAGIC was also explained by the Army Pearl Harbor Board (APHB) in its Top Secret Report, which said that,

“Information from informers and other means as to the activities of our potential enemy and their intentions in the negotiations between the United States and Japan was in possession of the State, War and Navy Departments in November and December of 1941. Such agencies had a reasonably complete disclosure of the Japanese plans and intentions, and were in a position to know what were the Japanese potential moves that were scheduled by them against the Untied States. Therefore, Washington was in possession of essential facts as to the enemy’s intentions.” (39PHA221)

“This information showed clearly that war was inevitable and late in November absolutely imminent. It clearly demonstrated the necessity of resorting to every trading act possible to defer the ultimate day of breach of relations to give the Army and Navy time to prepare for the eventualities of war.”

None of this intelligence was sent to Kimmel or Short, the Hawaiian commanders. The key question is: Why not?

more...
http://www.wwiivets.com/IssueXVI/pearl.htm

tell it to these wwII vets

peace

[Media_Lies_Daily]

64. Have you read the book? Have you personally double-checked...

...any of the information contained in the book? I suspect that you haven't done either.

So, you don't like the publisher, so you're willing to throw out the book? Interesting approach.

So tell me exactly how you're any different from the rightwingers that smear Democrats by association every chance they get?

[anti_shrub]

2. Declassified Pearl Harbor documents

Showed that not only did FDR provoke Japan into an attack, that England knew and was turned away from a meeting with FDR as to allow him to have plausible deniablility.

[J B]

5. Sure. But that has nothing to do with military intercepts.

The oil embargo's role has been well known for many years and requires no conspiracy theory.

[Dems Will Win]

29. There is no doubt in my mind that FDR knew. The big alibi for FDR was

that there were no naval intercepts. A couple of years ago, the missing naval intercepts were finally brought to light. That settles that.

In fact, in the spring of 1941 the Germans sank a ship and 100 Navy sailors drowned, yet people said FDR was just trying to get us into the war and nothing changed--and this was after Hitler had conquered ALL OF EUROPE! So over the summer he and George Marshall figured out how to provoke the Japanese into an "overt act"--which would trigger war with Japan and Germany. Some newspapermen even knew the campaign to provoke was on but George Marshall asked them to keep it suppressed for the nation.

In fact, it is said that when FDR got the intercepts, some were actual bombing run points and he slapped his hand on the desk, leaned back and said, "Now that's what I call an Overt Act!" Once the Japanese fleet took off for Pearl Harbor, the White House did everything it could to keep Hawaiian commanders from knowing about it--just as the FBI stacked up the Phoenix memo and the memos from Minneapolis about the terrorist pilots!

I'm a big Democrat but the evidence I'm afraid is overwhelming. FDR's biggest fear was that Germany would make the atomic bomb that Einstein had warned him about. It would have then been easy for Hitler and Tojo to take over the entire world.

This is a time-honored tradition. Leaders, from Attila the Hun to William McKinley and LBJ, need a pretext to make the most effective war they can, or to make war at all.

In 1944, the Republicans threatened to use the foreknowledge of Pearl Harbor as a campaign issue, but George Marshall again talked them out of it.

[Cooley Hurd]

3. Stinnett's last book was a glowing account of GHWB's WW2...

...exploits (not a word about Poppy leaping from a lightly damaged aircraft, leaving his crew to ride the plane down to their deaths). In case you didn't know, Stinnett is a RW hack and this book is yet another attempt by the right wing to slander the greatest President of the 20th Century. Keep hammering away with this BS and help Reagan get on the dime...

Anyone who has studied FDR knows that he, as a lover of the sea and especially the US Navy (Asst Sec of Navy under Woodrow Wilson), would never have sacrificed the Pacific Fleet. Trust me, I know FDR...

[durutti]

4. Yes and no.

FDR didn't know any of the specifics about the attack on Pearl Harbor.

However, he did deliberately provoke the Japanese.

[bpilgrim]

19. what do you mean by 'specifics about the attack'

it appears he knew they were steaming accross the pacific with a warship armada but didn't sound the alarm because he needed it to happen - just like the neoCONs - and he didn't really need to know any specifics like how many sorties they would fly, what type of planes, arms, etc...

peace

[William Seger]

54. That makes absolutely no sense at all

If FDR provoked Japan into attacking, and then he knew that they were on their way, then he already had what you're saying he wanted: a reason to declare war. Why in the hell would he not alert Pearl Harbor about the attack, so they could at least defend themselves? Even if you can't afford him the least bit of human decency and morality, what you're really saying is that he was extremely stupid: that he was willing to start off the war with the Pacific Fleet crippled the way it was at Pearl Harbor. Unless you're also suggesting that he wanted the US to lose the war? Perhaps you don't understand how close we came to exactly that.

Sorry, I seriously doubt that FDR was nearly so immoral or stupid as your conspiracy huckster is asserting.

[bpilgrim]

62. thats why i asked the question... what specifics

fyi: the japanese had planned to call off the attack if discovered not to mention that we did not want to tip our hand that we could read their messages which would come in VERY handy during the course of the war ESPECIALLY during midway.

peace

[William Seger]

82. It still ought to make sense, if it were true

Stinnett is claiming -- without proof, by the way -- that the messages were decrypted, which would mean that FDR knew there was an attack force headed to Pearl Harbor. That's "specific" enough to warn the fleet to be prepared for an attack, but it would have made a hell of a lot more sense to counter-attack the Japanese while they were just slightly too far away to launch their attack. If FDR had the decrypted messages, that's all the proof he needed the Japanese were attacking, isn't it?

I'll say it again: this makes no sense whatsoever.

But you find it credible that FDR was not only extremely immoral but also extremely stupid. Or, maybe you're saying that conspiracy theories don't need to make any sense if you "just know" they're true. Okay, whatever.

[bpilgrim]

103. he presents evidence here...

Translation of Intelligence Report of Radio Dispatch (Serial #291029)
Issued by Lt. John M. Lietwiler, Commanding Officer, Station CAST (COM16), Corregidor
Saturday, November 29, 1941, 1029 hours, Greenwich Time (6:29 p.m., Manila Time)

http://www.independent.org/tii/news/030225Stinnett.html

as far as not intercepting them they did not want to tip their hand that we had broken their codes and we wanted them to strike first to blow away ALL opposition to war.

peace

[William Seger]

116. That really "makes sense" to you?

"as far as not intercepting them they did not want to tip their hand that we had broken their codes and we wanted them to strike first to blow away ALL opposition to war."

Yes, I understand that you believe that. But it's still absurd.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

121. No, your defense of the government's version is "absurd". By the way...

...have you read Stinnett's book any closer than you've read the Warren Commission Report and it's supporting documents/exhibits?

[bpilgrim]

124. there is probably nothing more important in than reading the enemies mail

and we will go to extrodinary lengths to protect our ability to extract intel in this manner.

once the enemy knows we are on to them they WILL change their codes and that could cause huge problems for our forces.

as far as blowing away opposition to the war that is self evident.

that you find this 'absurb' only reveals your lack of understanding of the military and polotics of that era.

peace

[hang a left]

126. He is not the only one who has said this

George Morgenstern, 'Pearl Harbor', the Story of the Secret War(Costa Mesa, USA, 1991 edition)> First published in 1947

Also
As a Congressional investigation heard in 1945, the messages indicating a decision (by Japan) to go to war with the United States and Britain, though not with Russia, were intercepted and decoded on December 3rd 1941-four days before Pearl Harbor. Source: Joint Congressional Committee of the investigation of the Pearl Harbor attack.

[Woodstock]

7. NOW ON THE HISTORY CHANNEL - JAPANESE ATTROCITIES & THEIR VICTIMS

For a little perspective for the Americans in WWII/FDR/Truman bashers. There is much more to the story than your simplistic repetitious bashes.

[bpilgrim]

10. their sins do not wash away OURS

i am not 'bashing' anyone just discussing important topics of our history.

becuase you see everything in political terms i am not suprised by your bias.

peace

[Woodstock]

15. talk about bias! you missed the part about the Chinese - that came first

Your bias is astounding - I have rarely seen such bias here or anywhere. You have an ongoing campaign here to condemn the good Americans who made the best decisions they could during WWII. If I'm not mistaken, you are the one who repeately posts the nuclear bomb threads blaming Americans. And political terms? How about my father's life - is that political?

The History Channel is now outlining the attrocities against Americans by the Japanese. But it started with their attrocities against the Chinese and other innocents at the beginning of the program. And now they are discussing the attrocities against the Phllipine people by the Japanese. This barbaric treatment of innocent people by the Japanese came before Americans even became involved - that's something you don't seem to think significant, oddly enough. You should be ashamed at what you are attempting to do to the honor of so many good American men and women.

[bpilgrim]

22. as i said their sins don't wash away OURS

think about it...

their army committed atrocities as have all armies including ours - remember the indians - and remember who was in the philipines first and look at what we have done to asia since so please let's not get into a body count contest since we would probably WIN.

this is about US NUKING a defeated, looking to surrender, nations cities, filled with innocent men, woman and children civilians... TWICE

that is terrorism on a scale NEVER before seen in war and with it we sunk back to level of barbarism.

and besides every military leader in theater agrees with me - or i should say i with them since they said it first - those awfull weapons were NOT neccessary.

anyways... back to the poll

peace

[Woodstock]

25. Oh yeah, here comes your repetition

As I said, every time you post the bomb threads, the majority says you are wrong. And you've taken your "military leader" quotes out of context, as the majority always points out.

The Chinese and Phillipines were brutally attacked. We were attacked. We fought back. That's doesn't quite jive with your "sins" logic. The decision to use the bomb was made in the context of the time - something you don't seem to want to think about. You just want to blame Americans.

[bpilgrim]

27. at least i provide links to back up my points

and as far as the majority disagreeing i take exception, not that that would prove the information i present wrong but just that is not how i recall it... shoot we have a poll going on here and it seems to be 50/50 to me which sounds about right in the other threads as well.

look we are talking about the end of the war and our decision to NUKE a defeated nation that was looking to surrender TWICE.

there is no justification for it and in these preemptive times and mini-nukes i will be repetative as i can to make it clear the horrors of using such weapons.

here's a link for those who would like to learn more about the decision to use NUKES...
http://www.doug-long.com/debate.htm

peace

[knight_of_the_star]

50. OK, here's another fun one

saw this tidbit on the History channel when they were discussing US plans to invade Japan. First, the Grand Alliance members had agreed to nothing less than "unconditional surrender" on the part of the Axis powers. Japan was still looking for conditions when they asked, so it would have violated the alliance treaty to accept the surrender of the Japanese. Here's another fun one: part of our plan for invading the Japanese home islands called for massive bombing of the southern-most island of the home islands with nerve gas in preparation of invasion. They had the sufficient stockpiles ready to do it too. Saw that on a documentary by the History Channel. Would you rather we kill a couple hundred thousand with two nukes, or several MILLION with gas and an invasion against a nation whose people were more than ready to die rather than surrender?

[bpilgrim]

58. i would have prefered they accepted their 1 condition sooner

to SAVE LIVES as recommended by all military leaders in theater at the time.

peace

[knight_of_the_star]

49. You are ignoring a key fact

What I heard happened when his secretary of war came in and told him Pearl Harbour was hit, he was first rather shocked, then extremely pissed off. He would NEVER have done an act such as that, and keep in mind that things like orbital satellites and the NSA did NOT exist yet. The Japanese strike forces was under strict radio silence on it's approach, the plan itself was top secret, only Tojo, Yamamoto, and the ship commanders and flight leaders involved knew about it. Remember, 1941 was VERY different in terms of recon and the like. WHen the planes were coming in to hit Pearl, radar operators ignored it because RADAR at the time was VERY unreliable and subject to glitches and oopses. The operators thought the system was on the fritz, and keep in mind that ship-mounted RADAR hadn't really been done effectively yet, forget aircraft mounted systems of that nature. That and our intelligence was VERY poor quality at the time, cryptography was still young and wasn't all that accurate. Let us also not forget that on top of all these things, the people in charge of the US military at the time thought that if there was going to be a major attack by the Japanese on America, it would land on the Phillipines, not Hawaii. Most US commanders thought that the Japanese couldn't pull that off and weren't that bold/stupid. Also, unlike W who is STILL stonewalling the current investigation of 9/11, FDR not only allowed for but cooperated with 9 seperate COngressional investigations into Pearl Harbour. All of them concluded it was badly misinterpreted intelligence, lacking of proper intelligence, and the fact that US forces at the base were simply not ready for such a strike. Also keep in mind that the world had NEVER, prior to that day, seen carriers used in such a fashion, muchless conceived off the possibility that there was something out there that was better than the battleship. It was in fact based on Pearl Harbour that naval tactics regarding carriers were subject to a massive overhaul in their use because it was simply not considered possible to launch such a devastating attack by the use of carriers and carrier planes.

[jiacinto]

13. It's called "Blame America First"

That's what many people here do.

[bpilgrim]

23. breaking out your RW lines, eh...

how quaint

peace

[thebigidea]

35. how sickening

you should be ashamed to use RW talking points against "fellow liberals."

You might as well say that he wants to take your guns away too.

[AntiCoup2K4]

8. 911 was "PERLE Harbor"

The PNAC doctrine itself demands that there be such an event in order for them to implement their sick global fascist agenda.

[FDRrocks]

9. Pearl Harbor was almost a MIHOP but its alot more complicated than that.

If Pearl Harbor had not happened, Japan could've increased thier naval superiority. The isolationists of the day were content sitting in thier little Utopia pretending that the 3 nations arming themselves to the teeth and intent on ravaging the globe were not a problem at all.

Pearl Harbor also gave our government the opportunity to mobilize our arms industry to help supply the amazingly weak Allied powers and eventually overcome the German menace. If we had started later I'm not sure it would've turn out so nicely.

Another thing I would argue is that FDR and his cabinet was, logically so, predicting that Japan would attack an eastern interest... such as the Phillipines. Not a naval base on Pearl Harbor.

[bpilgrim]

11. thats why i said a LIHOP

and i agree with FDR's move then due to the political situation then at home and the absolute neccessaty of defeating FACISM both in the pacific and europe.

peace

[ComerPerro]

12. This always amazes me

I really like FDR, think he did a lot of great things. But, I think he deliberately baited the Japanese to strike, mainly because the public wouldn't accept pre-emptive war.

BUT

Is amazing how many Bush supporters swear up and down that FDR arranged the attack on Pearl Harbor, but despite tons of "evidence" refuse to even consdier that Bush let 9/11 happen.

[bpilgrim]

16. good point

and I am a big fan of FDR as well and agree with his decision for the same reasons.

peace

[jiacinto]

14. Sorry

I don't believe in the crazy conspiracies posted here at DU.

[bpilgrim]

17. thats

because you are like a scientist who has already made up their mind and refuses to even look at any evidence that doesn't fit within your preconcieved notions.

though it's not suprising comming from you it is suprising to see that there are quite a few who do.

:hi:

peace

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bpilgrim]

20. obviously

but maybe you would take the victims familly members seriously...

Ellen Mariani: An American Hero is born
http://new.globalfreepress.com/article.pl?sid=03/12/05/0544247

:hi:

peace

[Woodstock]

24. Your poll question is confusing

You say Pearl Harbor was a LIHOP was 9/11. Say what?

What does this mean? Are you asking was Pearl Harbor LIHOP? Was 9/11 LIHOP? What if it's no for one, yes for the other? Your results are meaningless because you are asking two questions that might have different answers (not to mention most people who are sick of the blame Americans not the Japanese threads probably have you on ignore.)

[bpilgrim]

28. PEARL HARBOR was at least a LIHOP as documents now prove BUT was 911

a LIHOP as well.

hope that is a little more clear.

if folks wish to ignore me thats is their choice as far as charecterizing me as a 'blame america firster' that is simply unfair an typical of RW smear tactics that is sad to see display even on a democratic site.

i am not saying the japanese were good and the americans were bad, thats childish but indicative of the level of debating/discusion skills many have when it comes to a topic they disagree with and/or uninformed of.

people let their emotions and HOT anger take over which just spews out in all directions but never deals with the issues raised.

peace

[Ediacara]

33. if Pearl Harbor was a lihop, then why isn't it on the right wing news?

If there was even one shred of data supporting this idea, then Fox News would be on it 24-7 suggesting we exhume FDR and execute him with a firing squad because he let Pearl Harbor happen (that's what LIHOP means right? let it happen on purpose).

Look, Fox and Rush think that Pearl Harbor LIHOP is BS even though they'd have a stake in trying to beign FDR down, why would YOU believe it?

[bpilgrim]

44. don't ask me ask them

maybe they don't wont americans thinking that our leaders could be capable of such cold calculations... right now, anyways.

i am a huge admire of FDR but i don't turn away from history. i actually believe that he did the right thing considering the politicle mood at home and the real horror facism actually was in the pacific and europe.

you percieve this as some kind of slight against FDR but it is not just a discussion about history.

peace

[Ediacara]

48. what a cop out!

If they had real data to burn FDR, they'd do it in a heartbeat.

[bpilgrim]

66. how do i know what fox is thinking? sheesh...

but there is all the evidence presented in the book, i didn't just make it up...

so can we stick with the evidence and not look for the hidden motives of groups i have no association whatsoever with.

thanks

peace

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bpilgrim]

79. i am not a mind reader

besides i have provided plenty of evidence unlike yourself.

peace

[Ediacara]

81. uh, no you haven't

You've said "it's in the book," which is a really poor way to present evidence.

[bpilgrim]

104. here's a link fer ya

Translation of Intelligence Report of Radio Dispatch (Serial #291029)
Issued by Lt. John M. Lietwiler, Commanding Officer, Station CAST (COM16), Corregidor
Saturday, November 29, 1941, 1029 hours, Greenwich Time (6:29 p.m., Manila Time)

http://www.independent.org/tii/news/030225Stinnett.html

it demonstrates that not only were we actively monitoring ship movements but that we were also reading their messages.

peace

[MadHound]

127. The answer to your question is the same as with most conspiracies: Money

Pure plain and simple. Who benefitted from WWII? The large corporations. Who were able to bury their facist/Nazi leanings in a shower of patriotic largesse? The large corporations. It comes down to, as always, money.

The Great Depression wasn't really over by the time of Pearl Harbor. Yes, the country had climbed partially out of that deep hole, but we were still teetering and could fall back over the edge any time. Having to rev up and arm a massive military machine really put us over the top. Corporations that had one foot in the bankruptcy court were all of the sudden flush with money. Corportations that had been able to survive the Great Depression were now able to thrive due to a vast new global territory thrown open to them(Coca Cola being just one of many examples). Even in the entertainment business new fortunes were made, thanks to the fact that the only thing that people could spend their new found wealth on was entertainment, thanks to rationing.

This isn't a question of right or left wing media, this is a question of big business media. And since the businesses who control the media profited immensely from WWII, who are they to let the cat out of the bag? It would only call into question their dealings during the war, and I'm sure there are many skeletons that they would rather keep in the closet.

[Ediacara]

31. you're so off the mark it's not even funny

Scientists: can change their mind with the acquisition of new data.

Conspiracy theorists (aka creationists in act): refuse to drop an insane idea even though it's been falsified.

[bpilgrim]

32. gotta link?

:hi:

peace

[Ediacara]

34. a link to what?

and it's "got a link," not "gotta link." Unless of course, you're trying to create a verb with "gotta."

Anyway, what do you want me to link?

[thebigidea]

37. you have to be kidding - you're gonna quibble about "gotta"?

I assume you'll make it your sworn duty to correct people on their use of "wanna" too.

[Ediacara]

38. what the fuck do you want me to link?

and I was serious about gotta.

Were you asking me if I HAVE to link, in which case "gotta link?" would be appropriate.

Or were you asking me if I have a link, in which case "got a link?" would be appropriate.

They are two different questions, with two different answers.

In any case, my question remains, "A LINK TO WHAT?"

[bpilgrim]

41. that shows a theory that has been falsified, of course

very impressive deciphering of gotta :toast: glad you understood, i forget that non-native speakers frequent DU as well...

thank gore HE 'invented' the internet :bounce:

peace

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bpilgrim]

69. actually i was referring to you

and the topic of this discussion is on PEARL HARBOR and 911 so if you have any documentation demonstrating that 911 or PEARL HARBOR was falsified - other than the research done by the folks that have demonstrated the gov line WRONG - i would be most apreciative.

thanks :toast:

peace

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bpilgrim]

76. you missunderstood me then...

i was refering to jiacinto methods being UNSCIENTIFIC believe me i am a big believer in science.

please re-read my post :hi:

peace

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bpilgrim]

84. 'you are like A scientist'

i didn't say ALL.

now i presented evidence that we broke their codes before PH, we had an 8 point plan to provoke an attack AND i point folks to a book that documents these and many more details about that era.

sorry if that is not good enough for you and carlos - who haven't even READ the book - which make yall like the closed minded scientist i refered to earlier who shut their minds to ANY evidence to contrary of their preconcieved notions.

thats bad science

now if you have any evidence that refutes his claims lets see it otherwise good night.

peace

[Pocho]

108. YEAH, AND WE'RE THE GREATEST NATION THAT EVER WAS. SO THERE!

Cowed member of the Paper Bag Society, DU Chapter
"They're crazy, not me. All's nice. I want it to be"

Certainly no conspiracies here. All reasonably explained
JFK, Jack Ruby, Hale Boggs, Warren Commission, CIA, Martin King, Malcom X, Bobby Kennedy, Abby Hoffman, FBI, John Lennon, Fred Hampton, Che, Contras, Iran, Echelon, John Jr., Osama, Touch screen voting, Nov.2000, 18,181, Skull & Bones, 9/11, Anthrax, Wellstone, NSA, Nov.2002, DLC, Saddam, WMD, Dr Kelly, Arnold.(Earn PBS Blindy Points by adding others which tin hatters see as conspiracies but which we know are just a normal coincidental part of life.)

[bpilgrim]

30. 57% YES - 38% NO

this is going to be a big problem for bush during election season and i hope the canidates pick up on this as well.

folks want the TRUTH about what happened on 911

peace

[Jester_11218]

36. "Perle" Harbor

[JackSwift]

39. No respected historian believes that Pearl Harbor was LIHOP

and they have discussed the issue at length. Only fascists put this crap forward.

[bpilgrim]

40. gotta link?

that refute his charges... would love to see it.

thanks :hi:

peace

[knight_of_the_star]

52. How about this

Go to amazon.com, type in FDR, and tell me how many books you get that show conclusively by respected historians that Pearl Harbor was a surprise attack. Also type in Pearl Harbor, see how many books come up just on THAT subject showing it was a surprise attack. THAT is my link.

[bpilgrim]

68. there where a lot of folks who KNEW the world was flat too at one time

till someone presented EVIDENCE to the contrary.

you'll have to do a lot better than that.

peace

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bpilgrim]

78. how is using historical analogies 'absurd'

at least i provide links to back up my claims

peace

[WoodrowFan]

131. ANybody can publish a book (see, Colulter, Ann)

see how many of the "FDR knew" books are published by a Univeristy press? Could the answer be, oh I dunno, ZERO. Any moran can publish a book revealign the "truth" especially if they go to the same presses that Ann Coulter and company use. But getting something past a peer-reviewed press is MUCH harder. Not that University presses don't publish some crap, but the level is a lot lower.

[bpilgrim]

142. lets stick with the message and not the publisher please

Pearl Harbor Document

Intelligence Report of Radio Dispatch (Serial #291029)
Issued by Lt. John M. Lietwiler, Commanding Officer, Station CAST (COM16), Corregidor
Saturday, November 29, 1941, 1029 hours, Greenwich Time (6:29 p.m., Manila Time)


http://www.independent.org/tii/news/030204Stinnett.html

peace

[Myra]

42. Yes, and I'll elaborate...

*Hell* yes.

[RBHam]

43. Pearl Harbour was a LIHOP, but it was done for GOOD

People forget that there was a huge pro-Fascist sentiment in the US at the time, and FDR needed something to happen to get America into the War before it was too late.

However, 9-11 was a LIHOP for exactly the opposite reasons.

Not to STOP the danger of an emerging global Fascist hegemony,
rather the myth of 9-11 is being used to advance the neo-conservative
agenda for American global economic and military domination.

I've found that there are those on the far right that would look at a 9-11 LIHOP in the same light as we now look at the Pearl Harbour LIHOP : regrettable, but necessary.

Scary.

[bpilgrim]

45. i agree

excellant sumation :toast:

peace

[KoKo]

91. That this garbage about FDR appears on a Dem site really is beyond

the pale, here. And, I'm a fan of many of RB's writings. Not all, but many. I just think this RW Revisionist History doesn't have a place here.

To put FDR and Chimp in the same kind of conspiracy makes me want to "cool it" on DU. And, especially from many of you whom I respect on this Board! :puke:

[bpilgrim]

114. this is history not politics

and it demonstrates what lengths political leaders will go to to achieve thier mission.

in my opinion fdr did the right thing, though i am not judging his actions, just trying to deal with history.

peace

[Media_Lies_Daily]

123. Sorry, but this is not "garbage"...it's called history. Contrary to...

...popular belief, history is not cast in concrete, and it's usually written by the winners in world conflicts.

As new information is uncovered about a particular historical topic, that piece of history changes until the next piece of the puzzle is brought into play.

"RW revisionist history"?? Get a grip.

I'm as big a fan of FDR as anyone here, but it has long been rumored by people all along the political spectrum that Pearl Harbor was a set-up job to lure the Japanese into making an attack. Quite a few historians have openly speculated over the years that we would eventually uncover the "smoking gun" as more information became available. Stinnett appears to have done exactly that. Until you read the book, you won't understand what's being discussed, something that is quite obvious at this point in time.

Here's a tip for you...if you don't like what's being discussed don't participate in the thread. I'm sure that there are plenty of other threads here at DU that will not make you think and/or reconsider old positions.

[jpgray]

46. I find it easier to believe 9/11 was a LIHOP

I think both happened through incompetence and hubris, which looks an awful lot like LIHOP sometimes.

[agincourt]

53. I agree with you,

because as much as FDR thought we needed to stop Germany, nothing happens unless the Austrian corporal declares war after Pearl Harbor.

[dobak]

51. Do you know anything about the publisher?

Let me enlighten you about the Free Press:

The Seduction of Hillary Rodham by David Brock

The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life by Richard J. Herrnstein, Charles Murray (Contributor)

Radical Son : A Journey Through Our Time From Left to Right by David Horowitz

The Real Anita Hill by David Brock

etc...

etc...


The Free Press is a mostly RW hack publisher who has very low standards on research and sources for the books that they publish.

David Brock has even said that almost everything he wrote was a lie but the publisher did not care or did not bother to check on it.

[bpilgrim]

56. but what about the message?

i haven't heard it refuted, have you?

peace

[dobak]

60. the fact that the publisher has published that other shit...

is enough of a refutation for me.

Until I see a simliar book published by a university press (Oxford/Harvard/Chicago/etc..) then I assume that there is an agenda behind the book.

In this case, I think it is a RW author who found a willing publisher for his crappy book.

[dobak]

61. How's this?

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20000301fabook630/robert-b-stinnett/day-of-deceit-the-truth-about-f-d-r-and-pearl-harbor.html

[bpilgrim]

65. 'Stinnett has uncovered some nuggets of new evidence'

"Stinnett has uncovered some nuggets of new evidence, but his most sensational items are premised on the false belief that American intelligence had broken the Japanese naval code before the attack."

It is well known that before World War II the American “Black Chamber” was successful in deciphering the Purple Code and all other coded Japanese communications, overcoming the overblown confidence of Japanese intelligence. (The Japanese were never aware that all their codes had been broken).

more...
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/opinion/200211/kt2002112117315811350.htm

In addition to the interception and decryption of Japanese radio
transmissions, most of the radio intercept stations were equipped
with radio direction finders (RDF) which allowed trained operators to
pinpoint the exact location of specific Japanese warships once their
distinct radio call sign was identified. By means of RDF, naval
intelligence experts were able to track the movement of the Japanese
carrier force as it approached Pearl Harbor. Stinnett's findings
confirm the truthfulness of the claim made by the Dutch naval
attaché to the United States, Captain Johan Ranneft, that while on
visits to the Office of Naval Intelligence in Washington on December
2 and 6 he saw intelligence maps tracking the movement of Japanese
carriers eastward toward Hawaii. Also, his findings support the
testimony of Robert Ogg who claims that while on assignment to the
12th Naval District in San Francisco he located (by means of RDF
intelligence) the Japanese fleet north of Hawaii three days before
the attack.

more...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/codesciphersandsecretstuff/message/198

Japan’s most secret naval and military codes such as the 5-Num Code had been broken long before the Japanese attack. Stinnet writes, “It is clear from Admiral Ingersoll’s statement that the <5-Num> Code produced intelligible messages as early as Oct. 4, 1940. The FBI confirmed the Navy’s decoding success on Oct. 21, 1940.”

more...
http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/OtherPDFs/Pearl_Harbor___Iserbyt.pdf

shall i go on?

peace

[Elidor]

87. Pearl Harbor Revisionism Never Ends

"It is well known that before World War II the American “Black Chamber” was successful in deciphering the Purple Code and all other coded Japanese communications, overcoming the overblown confidence of Japanese intelligence. (The Japanese were never aware that all their codes had been broken)."

Navy Commander Joseph Rochefort, Jr., in charge of the Combat Intelligence Unit at Pearl Harbor (station "Hypo"), helped break the top Japanese naval code, JN-25 in the fall of 1940. But the Japanese changed the key to JN-25 shortly before Pearl Harbor, throwing everyone off for a few days.

Based on the accounts of Rochefort and Rear Admiral Edwin T. Layton, it's obvious that some of the Washington recipients of Black Box knowledge were probably aware of Japanese intentions. But their agendas did not necessarily coincide with Roosevelt's. Where is the proof that Roosevelt saw or was appraised of this information? If he Let It Happen on Purpose, he could only be regarded as a monster.

See Walter Lord, "Incredible Victory"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1580800599/qid=1070844030/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-9817556-2870505?v=glance&s=book

Rear Admiral Edwin T. Layton (a Lieutenant Commander at the time of Pearl Harbor and a friend and colleague of Rochefort's) was Fleet Intelligence Officer to Admirals Nimitz and Kimmel and sheds further light on Navy codebreaking in his book, "And I Was There..."
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1568523475/qid=1070842368/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_5/102-9817556-2870505?v=glance&s=books

The notion that a LIHOP Pearl Harbor was done for "good" is astounding: you admit that you admire a man whom you believe deliberately sacrificed most of our Pacific Fleet for political expediency? Where is your head at, man? That's just sick.

[bpilgrim]

105. we won the war

a war that had we not entered may not have been won.

peace

[Media_Lies_Daily]

67. In a nutshell?...

Philip Zelikow wrote:

"...but his most sensational items are premised on the false belief that American intelligence had broken the Japanese naval code before the attack. In fact, it was not decrypted until after Pearl Harbor."

Does Zelikow offer any proof, documentation, and/or evidence to refute the massive amounts of evidence provided by Stinnett?

No, he does not. He merely spouts the same old information known prior to the publication of Stinnett's book. But, that's almost always the case when new evidence is presented to any academic field. There will always those that have vested interests in maintaining the status quo.

Next.

[William Seger]

111. How about "nut shell"

http://www.independent.org/tii/news/030127StinnettBudiansky.html

Stephen Budiansky:

As anyone who reads these sources will discover, Mr. Stinnett’s frequent, pat answer to any and all criticisms—that his critics are relying on “a 1950s version of events”—is simply wrong. The major evidence that refutes Mr. Stinnett’s claim that the main Japanese naval code was broken before Pearl Harbor (and that a government “coverup” continues) comes from archival documents that were declassified in 1999, which I have described in full in my above-mentioned publications. These documents consist of contemporaneous reports made by U.S. codebreakers at the time in question, in particular a series of date-stamped, month-by-month progress reports filed by the U.S. Navy codebreaking bureau throughout 1940 and 1941. These give a monthly tally of precisely how many code groups had been recovered in every code system being studied at the time. They show unambiguously that only a very small percentage of code group recoveries had been made in the Japanese naval operations code by the time of the Pearl Harbor attack in December 1941, nowhere near enough to produce useful intelligence from the messages themselves.

Reviewing the large body of recently declassified materials in the National Archives, Philip Jacobsen has located the earliest of the actual decoded messages that U.S. codebreakers were able to produce from their cryptologic attack on this code system. The decoded messages are dated and sequentially numbered. Decrypt #1 bears a decryption and translation date of January 8, 1942—in other words, a full month after the Pearl Harbor attack.

This documentary evidence thus fully corroborates the testimony of the U.S. naval officers who were involved in this work, who have long stated that this key Japanese naval code was not readable until early 1942. As Duane Whitlock, who worked at the U.S. codebreaking station in the Philippines, testified: I can attest from first hand experience that as of 1 December 1941 the recovery of JN-25B had not progressed to the point that it was productive of any appreciable intelligence—not even enough to be pieced together by traffic analysis.” (Traffic analysis is the procedure whereby encoded signals that have not been deciphered are analyzed to see if any clues can be extracted about enemy movements or intentions by the pattern, frequency, or place of origin of the transmissions.) “The reason that not one single JN-25 decrypt made prior to Pearl Harbor has ever been found or declassified,” Mr. Whitlock continued, “is not due to any insidious coverup…it is due quite simply to the fact that no such decrypt ever existed. It simply was not within the realm of our combined cryptographic capability to produce a useable decrypt at that particular juncture.”

[bpilgrim]

128. here is a link to a document from Nov of 41 discussing our monitoring

Translation of Intelligence Report of Radio Dispatch (Serial #291029)
Issued by Lt. John M. Lietwiler, Commanding Officer, Station CAST (COM16), Corregidor
Saturday, November 29, 1941, 1029 hours, Greenwich Time (6:29 p.m., Manila Time)

http://www.independent.org/tii/news/030225Stinnett.html

also note in the txt you posted that the author points out that we were reading their msg 1 month after PH but can not accept the possibility that we were reading them before even though there is documentation that exist to indicate otherwise.

also why is there to this very day still so much secrecy regarding our code breaking prior to dec 7 41?

peace

[William Seger]

86. Have you looked for any refutation?

Here's one: http://www.usncva.org/books/book-10.html

[Media_Lies_Daily]

63. Oh, good. Let's smear the author by association. Nice. Real nice...

Yes, the other authors you mentioned had a real rightwing agenda. We all know that, thank you very much. And yes, the publisher is pretty bad about checking information contained in the books they publish.

Who gives a damn whether the publisher "fact-checked" or not? If the author has the documentation to prove his case, what difference does it make?

Why don't you try refuting the very well-documented information contained in Stinnett's book instead of taking the lazy way out? Stinnett is not the only writer to make allegations as to what really happened at Pearl Harbor, but he is the only one that has researched the most recently released information proving that Pearl Harbor was allowed to take place.

I'm personally a big fan of FDR, but he could be ruthless when he felt it necessary.

[WoodrowFan]

132. Who gives a damn whether the publisher "fact-checked" or not? If the autho

Who gives a damn whether the publisher "fact-checked" or not? If the author has the documentation to prove his case, what difference does it make?



ROFLMAO. Gee, Ann Coulter had just as much "proof" and it wasn't fact-checked either.

[Cleita]

70. Personal story here. I always did wonder about that.

In November of 1941, my parents and I were on a cruise ship, the SS Garfield, which we picked up in Panama to sail to Los Angeles Harbor. The ship was one of the old style grand cruise ships where everyone dressed for dinner and there was an orchestra for dancing. It commenced the cruise in New York and was to sail around the world ending up in New York after sailing accross the Atlantic. Of course it was full of very rich people with a lot of time on their hands. I got this story second hand from my parents because although I was there I was only eighteen months old and remember nothing about it.

My father wanted to cable his family in Los Angeles to give them the arrival time and was informed that there was no ship to shore communications because there were Japanese subs spotted in the waters surrounding us. They didn't want to give away the location of the ship. Now, remember we weren't at war with Japan then. When we arrived at Port of Los Angeles, the passengers who were going around the world were thrown off the ship with the Liner paying for train tickets for them to go back to New York or where ever they had embarked. The ship was impounded by the US Government. Everything was hush, hush and no one had any idea why.

Well, in the weeks leading up to Pearl Harbor all ships of American registry were impounded by the US Government when they hit a US port. It turns out they were to be converted for use as troop transports. Pearl Harbor of course happened within weeks and my father swore to his dying day that FDR knew about Pearl Harbor and let it happen as an excuse to enter WWII. Of course he was a rabid Republican and hated FDR.

[bpilgrim]

71. very interesting story, thanks for sharing that

do you have any links that talk about this policy i would love to read more about it.

thanks again :toast:

peace

[Cleita]

72. Sorry I don't.

This was just a family story. My mother kept the ship programs and other documents for a very long time, but unfortunately they got lost eventually in moving I think or maybe she threw them out finally.

[bpilgrim]

73. no worries

again thanks for sharing that very interesting story :toast:

peace

[Military Brat]

83. "The Attack Has Been Spectacular"

As for 9/11 and LIHOP, check out this excellent article, "The Attack Has Been Spectacular," by Maureen Farrell, with all the links your heart desires to back up what she writes.
http://www.buzzflash.com/farrell/03/07/01.html

It is naive or wishful thinking to dismiss LIHOP or MIHOP when one considers the lengths that those in power will go to in order to obtain, hold on to, or extend their current grip on power which they use to impose their idealogy on the world. There is no benefit to unnecessary paranoia, but take off your rose-colored glasses which hide the fact that we are not, as citizens, in any way valuable to our government. We simply are not worth much as individuals unless we can be used as a means to achieve an ends. Ask Jessica Lynch.

Here is a list, from 1931 to 1997, of U.S. Govt. experiments on its citizens. Some of the experiments will be familiar to many DU'ers. None of these items are conspiracy theories, but at one time they were considered to be. http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/experimentation.html

I am not a conspiracy theorist, but I am absolutely convinced that there are those who will sacrifice those whom they have sworn to protect, even thousands if necessary. That is the way it has always been, and, unfortunately, the way it always will be.

[dionysus]

85. If you think

anyone would sacrifice damn near the entire Pacific Navy to get into the war then you're smoking crack. No one except * would be that evil and stupid.

[bpilgrim]

97. i am just going by the documentation

and the pacific fleet wasn't lost we had all of our carriers safe at sea on that horrid day.

and we would let it happen dor 2 reasons, one to get into the war and second not not reveal that we had broken their codes.

peace

[YankmeCrankme]

89. Too listen to these arguments...

one would think people don't use their brain. Just using logic, without reading some book, I can explain why FDR let it happen on purpose is extremely unlikely.

First, having Japan attack us was not going to let us attack Germany (who FDR was itching to fight and was considered a larger threat). There is no evidence that Congress would have declared war on Germany and would have focused on defeating Japan. Germany's declaration of war on the US was unforseen and what FDR considered fortuitous.

Two, if the US was certain Pearl Harbored would be attacked, they could have easily lured Japan into an ambushed and wiped out their fleet, thereby defeating Japan in less than a year.

Three, if FDR knew it would have been extreme folly to allow the attack to occur. Pearl Harbor would have be horrendously disastrous blow to the US, much moreso than actual, if the Japanese had done two things. Attack the fuel depot and come back for a third strike. There was no way to know the Japanese would make those mistakes.

In my opinion the things FDR did to antagonize the Japanese were necessary based on the geopolitical situation with China and the UK in SE Asia, not to provoke an attack. He was hoping they not would attack before he could get the US involved in the war in Europe. Yes, he knew the US would eventually go to war with Japan, but I don't think he was wanting them to attack at that moment. It would have been too grave a gamble, if he had prior knowledge, to let it happen considering how bad it could have been.

[bpilgrim]

98. you know all this without reading the documents

thats the problem with a lot of folks they refuse to see

peace

[YankmeCrankme]

107. Thank you...

for refuting my logic arguments. That's the problem why people believe theories that don't make sense.

[bpilgrim]

117. lol

logic arguments from someone who hasn't even seen any of the documents or read the book, thats funny.

peace

[WoodrowFan]

135. This is the best summary I have read here

You have posted ther best summary of why the FDR-knew crap is just that, CRAP. Too bad some here will ignore it.

[KoKo]

90. Sorry Billy, don't believe in LIHOP for FDR. He was a NAVY MAN!

He was "honorable." He would have never allowed our Navy to be devasted in Pearl Harbor. I look on his LIHOP for Pearl as part of the RW Media Revisionist History folks who won't give up until every Democratic President has been trashed in our history.

NO ONE will EVER convince me that FDR would have "Allowed it."

NOPE! No way! I'ts just more Mt. Rushmore, and Reagan's face on the dime, and all airports, roads and government buildings being written over in the name of Reagan's "Strong America."

There was an Egyptian Pharoah who gouged out all his predesors names from monuments because only "HE WAS THE ANNOINTED." I look on the RW Gingrich/Norquist/PNAC/Heritage and the rest of their ilk as that Pharoah.....Trashed Clinton/Carter/Johnson/Kennedy and they will go back to get rid of any memory of any Democrat who served, and make them seem like a TRAITOR. It servers their purpose very well...doesn't it..if you think about it in the light of what we've seen in the last 30 years.

[Djinn]

92. no!

surely the US govt wouldn't provoke/engineer/lie about an attack just in order to enter a war?

I mean OK they did it with the "Gulf of Tonkin" incident and OK they did it repeatedly with the Iraq War Remake but surely it wouldn't have happened in the 1940's surely politicians back then weren't in it for power/money/influence and they ALWAYS told the truth.

I havn't read anywhere near enough to have an opinion on this but I find it incredibly bizarre that so many dismiss it out of hand as the ramblings of conspiracy nuts - I mean for god's sake it's not like govt's don't have form!

It's like the line from that former CIA director in a doc I watched recently about taking your wildest theories about the CIA and what they were responsible for and put a tick next to ALL OF THEM

[bpilgrim]

99. thats fine

but the evidence points the other way. you souldn't let politics color everything.

peace

[Cooley Hurd]

137. You're 100% correct, KoKo! FDR was a Navy man...

...and to believe he would sacrifice the Pacific Fleet for ANY reason, good or bad, is illogical. There were plenty of other ways to get us involved in the war. No way FDR would've done it by letting the Pacific fleet get massacred.

Besides, "the Day of Deceit" author is a rw hack - his last book was about GHW Bush's "heroic" actions in WW2 (which is a crock). Too bad some here are getting their CT's from the wrong side...

[seventhson]

93. Eyewitness account

In 1977 I took a Greyhound Bus from NYC to New Orleans to meet my soon to be in laws.

On that bus ride there was a man who was stationed somewhere in the South Pacific before the attack.

He SAW the huge numbers of Japanese planes as they headed out for their attack on Pearl Harbor. He was, I believe, put on one of those Islands to be early warning for such things.

He told me that he was one of the people who radioed the reports ahead that their was an attack coming.

He said they KNEW because HE had warned them. And he was MAD that they had failed to pull the ships out of the harbor and get the men to safety.

FDR did NOT have to know what was going on for there to be a LIHOP on December 7, 1941.

Bush would not have had to be privy to the details on 9-11 either (he is probably too stupid to be trusted with such details).

Go to Florida. Read a book to some children and DON'T MOVE until we tell you to. And DON'T WORRY: It's the TRIFECTA plan!

I hate to believe FDR would let our troops be attacked and many die in order to get the US Congress's permission to fight Hitler.

But who the hell knows.

But I put NOTHING past the Bushes because they WERE and still are HITLERS: Their money, Their Crimes, Their Coverup. Just like with their Saudi deals with the Bin ladens. Dirty dirty dirty

[Muddleoftheroad]

94. Other: This thread makes me want to vomit

I am sick of the anti-FDR propaganda on a DEMOCRATIC site.

[bpilgrim]

100. this isn't anti-fdr propaganda

this is a discussion of history.

i haven't seen his claims refuted though and i am still open minded on the topic and willing to look at other evidence that would refute this new evidence.

got any?

peace

[Muddleoftheroad]

109. I have seen your "evidence" before

And there is nothing of any note there to refute.

[bpilgrim]

115. and you never refute any

just mouth innane nationalistic blather and propaganda.

peace

[Muddleoftheroad]

119. All you present is a memo

From a minor functionary. The government writes lots of memos. The president acts on very few.

You are simply a person who rationalizes all the evil that Japan did and blames it all on the nation that ended it.

Scary really.

[rumguy]

95. Gore Vidal is a big-time advocate of this theory

He's written extensively about it....

[FDRrocks]

96. Kick...

this is an important poll. I only hate it b/c it compares Pearl Harbor with 9/11.

[Judi Lynn]

106. Did you ever read the book on Japan in World War II by John Toland?

It's The Rising Sun : The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire, 1936-1945. I read it in 1970, and I'm certain you would find it supportive of the belief Japan was manipulated economically into a state of desperation.

Also, I heard Gore Vidal on tv discussing a conversation he had with Eleanor Roosevelt. He asked if they had known in advance Japan would attack, and he said that she said they were expecting it, only they had believed Japan would attack the Phillipines.

Interesting thread, bpilgrim. Thanks.

[RPG-7]

125. Why wouldn't they have moved the carriers?

We got insanely lucky with the way we won the Pacific War.

The Pacific fleet was damn near wiped out in that attack and no one else in the world was betting big money on the US beating the Japanese out there even before it was destroyed.

It doesn't make any sense, if they knew the Japanese were coming they could have moved out everything worth keeping, let the Japanese destroy a bunch of ships destined for the scrapyard and the American response would have been not a bit more or less vengeful.

[bpilgrim]

129. they did

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq66-9.htm

peace

[FDRrocks]

134. Easy answer...

They had no clue where the attack would be. In fact, they thought it would be on an Eastern US interest, such as the Phillipines.

[WoodrowFan]

130. Gee, what a display of historian, um, innocence.

Here’s an interesting book for those who like to read about such issues. Some of those here won’t like it because they cling to their delusions, er, conspiracy theories too tightly. But those of us who actually are interested in history and not RW fairytales may like it.

BTW, the review says this about the old RW accusations about FDR and Pearl Harbor.

“…"Was Information About the Attack on Pearl Harbor Deliberately Withheld From the American Commanders?" While this may have been a viable question in the 1950s, when allegations about Roosevelt's duplicity in the Pearl Harbor bombing were made by some, few historians continue to take the allegations seriously.”

How about that, those of us who have a frickin CLUE about history know this is nothing but an old RW talking point. I am surprised that Regnery didn’t publish this piece of crap, er, this book. Oh well, I get to test the new “ignore thread” feature and some of the writers on this thread can be damn glad they’re not my students writing an history essay on this unless they like seeing F’s.


Larry Madaras and James M. SoRelle, eds. Taking Sides: Clashing Views on Controversial Issues in American History, vol. 2, Reconstruction to the Present. Tenth edition. Guilford: McGraw-Hill, 2003. xvi + 410 pp. Index. $22.75 (paper), ISBN 0-07-285027-2.
Reviewed by Jim Bisset, Department of History, Elon University. Published by H-Survey (September, 2003)

http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=323281068287161

[bpilgrim]

144. Senators Exonerate Pearl Harbor Chiefs." 26 May 1999

Admiral Husband E. Kimmel, Commander-in-Chief of the Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor, was charged with dereliction of duty for ignoring warnings of war. Reduced in rank to Rear Admiral, Kimmel subsequently retired from duty in March, 1942. He has thereafter been held largely accountable for the attack on Pearl Harbor, both in the history books and the congressional record, as well as in the court of public opinion. However, information has since become available indicating that Admiral Kimmel did not receive the critical information he was once thought to have. His grandson, Thomas K. Kimmel Jr., a retired FBI agent, is actively trying to clear his grandfather’s record.

more...
http://www.wwiivets.com/IssueXVI/pearl.htm

peace

[MadHound]

139. I too have leaned increasingly to the idea that FDR knew what was coming

And didn't do anything to stop it, in fact encouraging it to happen. As more and more materials are declassified, the clearer this scenario becomes.

Let's face it, the FDR Whitehouse develops and executes an eight step program to force the Japanese into a corner where their only way out is war. This is not only sourced in the book you mention bpilgrim, but also in the Joseph Persico book "Roosevelt's Secret War", which also details FDR's love of the cloak and dagger games, and how good he was at keeping secrets.

Furtermore, it is well documented that we had broken both the Japanese diplomatic code(Purple) and navy code(JN-25, both A & B), along with the J-19 and J-20 codes used by Naval attaches. We were reading and translating these codes as soon as they came in. In fact, in a 1994 report, the NSA reported that the US had cracked and was reading off the JN-25B code in December of 1940, and furthermore we passed two JN-25B codebooks along to the British in January 1941. This is well documented in the book by Mark Willey called "Pearl Harbor, the Mother of all Conspiracies".

There is a lot of material out there that is circumstantial evidence that FDR knew. Hawaiian radio bases picking up Japanese radio signals(the Japanese fleet broke radio silence at least twenty one times in route to Pearl Harbor), Californian and Hawiian radar stations picking up the fleet and attendant planes, but being told by superiors that is was a flock of geese, eye witness accounts of seeing either the Japanese fleet or planes in route, radioing the information in, and watching said info be ignored. This information and more is starting to come out in a flood as various release dates finally expire. And more will be forthcoming, the most important probably being the actual transcripts of the Japanese broadcasts. Yet these critical pieces keep having their release date pushed further and further back. One has to ask why, if these transcripts exonerate FDR, do they continue to kept from public scrutiny? The old excuse, national security, can no longer hold any water. And surely the powers that be realize that continued silence only fuels the more cynical answers that are out there. Most of these people are dead, we're no longer at war with any of the international players in the WWII conflict, so why not release these transcripts? Hmmmm!

And for those of you out there who are getting all outraged that we're defaming the greatest president of the twentieth century, get over it. This is not a question of politics, left or right. This is a question of historical truth, and truth, at least in my mind, trumps politics any day. Why is it so hard for you people to believe that FDR forced the Japanese into an attack? It is not like we don't have plenty of examples throughout history of nations staging fake attacks to start a war. Look at the Germans, who staged a fake attack from the Polish army, using it as an excuse to invade Poland. Remember the Maine? At best, it was an accident, at worst it was a staged event, but in either case, it got the US into the Spanish American War. And look who profited from that? Throughout history faked attacks have always had a place in the minds of those who need and want a war. To deny that this would occur simply because the leader was a prominent Dem is disingenous at best and Stalinesque at worst. In history it isn't politics that matter, truth is what matters.

Now I agree, some of the theories put out there as to why FDR forced the Japanese hand are ludicrous. Personally I think he did it for the right reasons. Germany had already conquered much of Europe, Japan was spreading throughout Asia, if left unchecked, these powers would take over the world(especially since Germany was working hard on the A-bomb). At home, FDR was faced with a right wing(even facist elements) group of isolationists who were blocking any effort to get involved in the war. Even when our transport ships were getting sunk by German U-boats, these isolationists were adament in our not getting involved. For some this was due to the recent horrible memories of WWI. For others it was because there was money to be made trading with either one side or the other, or both. And for a few, it was the plain simple fact that they had more loyalty to the idea of facism than loyalty for their own country. So FDR needed something big to whip up the general populace into a patriotic, fighting frenzy. Only thus could the stubborness of the isolationists be overcome.

I will leave you with one last thought. Look closely at the hardware that we lost at Pearl Harbor. All of the mainstream historys like to gone on how we had a major part of our navy destroyed at Pear Harbor. And yet if we look behind the numbers to the actual ships themselves, a different picture emerges. In the spring, many of the newer, faster ships were sent to the Atlantic. The aircraft carrier, along with it's carrier group(composed of newer faster ships) was deliberately kept in it's West Coast dock rather than go to Pearl Harbor in December, as it it would normally have done. The two other carriers and escort groups were sent out of Pearl Harbor days before the attack. All that was left to be destroyed were old ships of WWI vintage or older. Slow, technologically dated ships that were easily replacable. The core of modern, fast ships was spared this attack.

This sentiment is backed up by three telling quotes, the first by Admiral Bloch in his testimony to Congress: "The Japanese only destroyed a lot of old hardware. In a sense they did us a favor." The second was made by FDR himself in his call to Lord Halifax to inform the British of what had just occured; "Most of the fleet was at sea...none of their newer ships were in harbour." Please note that this call was placed at 2:15PM EST, twenty five minutes after FDR had recieved his first and thusfar only report of the attack on Pearl Harbor, before damage reports had come in, in fact while the attack was still on. The third and final quote is from Eleanor Roosevelt, from the NY Times Magazine of October 8, 1944 she wrote: "December 7 was...far from the shock it proved to the country in general. We had expected something of the sort for a long time."

Things that make you go Hmmmm.

[bpilgrim]

146. excellent post!

:toast:

the war with fascist continues today and like then we MUST defeat them...



peace