Does Dean see things as Black and White?

[kerryistheanswer]

When I first started looking for a candidate to support, my top two options were Dean and Kerry.

I STRONGLY opposed the war - this war and all wars. I went to all the demonstrations in DC and joined several groups. But I knew then as I know now that anger will not defeat Bush in next year's nomination.

I've followed John Kerry ever since Al Gore was robbed in 2000. I knew a bit about him through the Sunday morning talk shows and always found him to be intelligent, thoughtful, and statesman-like. He also was a progressive interested in the environment, civil rights, and global relations.

I saw him speak earlier this year at Georgetown University and was blown away by his vision for the world. It's exactly how I saw things. I was dissapointed in his vote on the IWR.

I went to a Dean meetup in April - there was so much energy there. I knew he was going to be a huge success. But what I realized were many angry folks - people who strongly opposed the war and most of Bush's policies.

I've been following the candidates since January and have a few obervations. First, I am NOT inspired by Howard Dean. His message is inspiring but as a communicator, I find him to be rather amatuer. Also, I've found Dean's grasp of issues to be far inferior to Kerry. He sounds like a walking textbook when answering questions - stumbling between sentences. Isn't this what attracted so many to George Bush? The average Joe qualities? Second, I found Kerry's message focused on specific solutions to our problems. He didn't have bumper sticker slogans or hipsters hanging around him at all times. He was serious and sometimes long-winded. He's a bit like NPR or a foreign film - Dean certainly is more like MSNBC in his short attention span grabbing message.

Please don't take the last statement personally. I'm not attacking Dean supporters - they're all bright, concerned citizens. It's just my observation of his campaign

Anyway, I was thinking more about the difference between Kerry and Dean and here's what I've come up with:

Dean sees the world as Black or White, Kerry lives in the Gray. Dean, like Bush, sees it as "my way or the highway". Kerry wants it both ways. It reminds me of Kennedy and Clinton - profound thinkers who can see boths sides of a debate.

I want it both ways - we should all want it both ways. Because if we have it one way - somebody else will lose. And our goal should be WIN_WIN.

Does that make sense?

Peace.

[candy331]

1. Dean is commanding

attention because of his message. Bill Clinton had exceptional oratory skills and was very charasmatic in speaking, perhaps all others are being measured by that when they speak. The average voters out there are not overly impressed by that, they want a down home common speaking kind of person, that is Bush's weakness with the intellectuals but his strength with everyday folks.

[poskonig]

2. Presentation is more important.

It doesn't matter how Kerry "sees" things, he has to communicate positions with clarity and decisiveness.

As Clinton put it, people would rather follow a person who is strong and wrong than weak and right.

[Jerseycoa]

3. Duck and Cover

:nuke:

[thebigidea]

4. Kerry is like a foreign film?

Then I demand subtitles!

[dsc]

5. There is a difference between being plain spoken

and being an idiot. Bush has no real understanding of issue nor does he seem to care to get one. Dean does have a real understanding of (at least the domestic) issues. He could be a better speaker but for that matter so could Kerry. Neither are the second coming of Clinton or Cuomo. Clinton really did spoil us. But listen to video of Truman to site one example. Truman and Dean are quite alike in style and IMO substance. People thought he was an idiot too (Too error is Truman was a common saying back then). Dean presents his views in plain, easily understood, ways. He is also getting much better as he goes. If you don't believe me compare his first few debates to the last two. There is a world of difference.

[kerryistheanswer]

6. I agree - Dean is not a moron...

But he's not the most qualified and at times he can rub people the wrong way. Sure, we might agree with him but how about the other 50% of the country. I'd like to forget about them too but we can't - I see Kerry's message as uniting - Dean's as divisive.

He's constantly stumbling over his words - for example - on the Diane Rehm show this past week he brought up the conspiracy theories about Bush knowing about 9/11. That's dumb - especially with the media looking for trival things to focus on - watch Karl Rove jump all over that.

Can you imagaine Dean going to the UN and being able to negotiate deals with others? I can't - he'll demand and when they disagree - he'll rip them apart.

Sorry, but I thought we progressives were the diplomats .

[newsjunkie]

10. Why is saying the truth dumb?

{{{{for example - on the Diane Rehm show this past week he brought up the conspiracy theories about Bush knowing about 9/11. That's dumb - especially with the media looking for trival things to focus on - watch Karl Rove jump all over that.}}}

I am glad he isn't shying away from saying it. Somebody needs to!!!They will attack him on everything he says anyway,no matter how trivial or silly it is.Thats just how they are. He just has to be ready for them and show with his rebuttles he has the right stuff.

[kerryistheanswer]

11. Yeah - BUT he took it back this morning

on Fox News Sunday - I mean, he couldn't explain what he meant by the statement. They asked him if he believed it and he was like, "um...no...i never said believed it...just that some people have said it".

WTF???

[newsjunkie]

13. yeah but all he said

was an interesting theory...so what? It is! He didnt apologize..he just clarified his statement a little. They are just looking for anything to pick on. They are picking on Kerry for saying the F word for petes sake. How dumb is that? Way dumber than what Dean said.

[kerryistheanswer]

15. fair enough

it's not that important to me - everyone slips and I'd rather have him out there bashing Bush.

But the whole IWR is a totally different story - I am so tired of Dean bashing the others for the vote. You know very well that his view was not all that different from Kerry and the others.

Yet all I seem to read on these boards is how Kerry is a hawk and is responsible for the deaths of innnocent Iraqis.

Like Kerry said in a recent interview, "if you think i would have taken us to war if president, don't vote for me".

Do you really think Kerry would have taken us to war???

[Eloriel]

21. Aha!!!

That's all the proof *I* need.


I am so tired of Dean bashing the others for the vote. You know very well that his view was not all that different from Kerry and the others.

Now tell me, Deanies. Who does that remind you of? Anyone you know? The only difference is this one has a much softer "voice."

I'm quite sure this is all a coordinated effort -- and the Clarkies have their own. And you know what? I despise kerry all the more for it.

Eloriel

[Scott Lee]

32. I've been kicking that idea around for awhile...it makes you wonder!

Could all this antiDean slime be coordinated? I think it's quite possible. If anything it's Dean himself who has shown what can be done with organization and drive. Maybe his detractors learned all too well.

[w13rd0]

14. That IS what he said in the interview with Rheam...

...he said "the most interesting theory I've heard is that...I don't necessarily believe that..." What's so difficult to understand about that response? Why are Democrats so quick to jump on one of their own for pointing out the obvious. This administrations secrecy and stonewalling makes for fertile ground in which to grow such theories...and does WE AMERICANS a disservice.

[sweetheart]

36. exposing a general

The issue is seat-of-the-pants wisdom in warfare and high conflict... let your pawns take the risky attack positions.... win the war. Instead, dean has his queen (in chess) attacking right off the start and it is bad form.

"I" was on nationwide UK radio back in march in a live chitchat with an ameircan undersecretary (i'm aslo a yank) regarding american democracy and the iraq war 2 days before bush came to belfast for his shindig with blair.

The conversation turned ugly as you can imagine, and i ended up by saying "how dare you... how dare you claim to speak for the american public... how dare you." I took a hostile attack position and got him to expose the american hate-mentality on nationwide UK radio... they lost that round... but i am not a presidential candidate.

Dean should let other people speak about LIHOP and MIHOP and leave himself the more credible ground of speaking on behalf of those endangered by a unilateral policy of war against our friends and allies. His chess tactics will lose the game.

Without any comment on Honourable Mr. Kerry, the issue is whether taking the most risky positions of the left fringe will win a centrist election... NO. Dean is, despite his rantings playing in to the hands of the neocons and marginalizing himself.

[dsc]

16. Your candidate just said the f word in a national magazine

but aside from that, Dean is hardly expousing unusual issues for a Democrat to be expousing. The war has gone badly, the economy is terrible, the deficit has ballooned. Just what should we campaign on?

[kerryistheanswer]

18. not the same

It's not the same thing - if Kerry was asked about why he said it, I'm sure he could defend it by saying it's what he thinks of Bush's policy.

Dean took it back - I mean, I've heard that George Bush is a transvestite but I wouldn't say it if I were running for president.

Anyway - I agree - it's minor and I don't want to beat Dean up about it. I'd rather focus on the issues - but Dean always seems to focus on the IWR. It's in every speech, most commercials, and most Deaniac posts.

[Eloriel]

23. "I'd rather focus on the issues."

The IWR IS an issue.

Besides that, it's hardly ever discussed by Dean outside the much larger context of Bush's lies that took us into war. I suppose you'd rather he forego talking about that too, since it naturally leads to the fact that kerry either voted opportunistically or didn't know any better despite that great mind and excellent foreign service "experience" he's had?

Sorry. It's his record. He gets to live with it -- while others continue to die over it.

Eloriel

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KoKo]

27. Hello! "Kerry is Answer.." Have you been to Dean's Website and read any

of the posts there? I think not or you wouldn't be so naive in your posts on this thread. Go..Read and come back and answer those who support Dean about why Kerry is better than Dean....

And Peace to you!

[kerryistheanswer]

31. BlogforAmerica is somewhat fascist

so I don't go there anymore. It's a groupthink joint - a place where those with dissenting views are not welcome. Kind of reminds me of John Ashcroft's vision for America.

I've been called a troll for simply stating my preference for Kerry. Sorry, but that really doesn't make me want to hang around.

[ozone_man]

39. That's Bush's private life,

which is none of our business.

"I've heard that George Bush is a transvestite but I wouldn't say it if I were running for president"

911 is everyone's business and Bush is holding back information on this extremely important investigation.

Dean and the other dems should be asking these questions. Get some spine dems.

[Eloriel]

19. On the contary

I wouldn't know about JKerry -- I can't stay awake long enough for him to finish a sentence. But Dean is all about uniting.

See his June 23 Announcement speech. The only thing "divisive"
about Dean is the agents provocateurs who come here to try to spread such memes. AND, I'm sure he wouldn't mind "dividing" the Democratic Party from the stranglehold the DLC and pink tutus among our leaders (so-called) have had on the party.

Eloriel

[kerryistheanswer]

22. You prove my point

You seem to prefer short and sweet, even if wrong and lacking substance - as opposed to in-depth, meaningful, and right.

We're moving towards the ADD era in the US - a BUsh-Dean debate would confirm it.

[KoKo]

29. You sound like your'e on the Kerry "payroll." Give some Documentation,

otherwise you sound like you're total "bought and paid for" to come on this site with your "Trash Dean" stuff!

[Eric J in MN]

25. Dean never implied Bush knew exactly how an attack would

Bush isn't letting the 9/11 commission view uncensored White House memos.

Dean said that may be because there is a warning of an impending attack in the memos. (Note: embassies were on high alert before 9/11.)

Dean wasn't implying that Bush knew exactly how the 9/11 attacks would happen, just that warnings that some sort of attack would happen might be seen as embarassing to Bush.

[newsjunkie]

8. I think Dean has improved too

I saw a show with just him and Kucinich (I guess nobody else showed up)where they answered questions from the Florida delegates and they were both great. I could see that they both had improved a lot in their speaking skills and communicating one to one with folks. Dean is exiting the loyal (and more liberal too) Democrats and I think also a lot of swing voters who are disgusted with the chimp. My gal Molly Ivins just endorsed Dean and she is no amateur at this political stuff. I think he can win with the right running mate.He has shown already he will not be afraid to fight these nasty clowns in the R party or the media.

[kerryistheanswer]

9. Actually - Molly admits to picking losing candidates

She usually picks losing candidates (at least according to her).

I wish all the Dean folks would come over to Kerry. We're really not that different.

[newsjunkie]

12. Kerry seems ok but he's boring

and that Skull and Bones thing bothers me.

[slinkerwink]

24. Yes, Dean Folks ARE different from Kerry Folks

you know why? We don't support Kerry's vote on Iraq!

[KoKo]

34. No! Kerry is a boring INSIDE THE BELTWAY/HAS BEEN.politician who

sold his soul to the devil over the IWR. He couldn't dig himself out of that one so he tried to waffle. When that didn't work, he went for the Lieberman crowd and said he'd appoint James Baker as an "Envoy" to the ME....(while invoking Clinton, Carter) just so we didn't think he was ALL BAD!

He's "out of touch" didn't get it...doesn't get it...and lost all the "Treasure he had" with those of us who would have supported him if he hadn't "crashed and burned" early on!

BTW: That photo and video of him with his "Harley gunning up" didn't help with some of us either! Trying to "out-do Flyboy" was sort of disgusting in it's pandering.

What great qualities Kerry had coming in have been far outweighed by his "mismanagement of his campaign" and his votes in the Senate.

This is on HIS HEAD....not OURS....

[kerryistheanswer]

35. You need anger management

Please get help before you blow something up. And don't visit Vermont -the peace and tranquility might freak you out.

[KoKo]

42. ROFL........I love Vermont!

:D

[kiahzero]

7. Black or White

Dean sees the world as Black or White, Kerry lives in the Gray.

Exactly one of my largest problems with Dean.

[Eloriel]

17. You're absolutely right

In fact, Kerry has a long history of wanting it both ways -- mostly so HE'S the one who wins, politically. It's his one true ambition: to avoid guessing wrong and thus avoid going against the prevailing political winds.

And no, Dean's not any more prone to black-and-white thinking than most people. Your own post demonstrates that very quality (or fault), had you noticed?

Here's what I don't understand: if You're a Kerry supporter, which I can guess from your name even before I read your oh-so-thoughtful and provocative post, why do you even feel a need to come here and make comparisons with Dean?

I'm one of the most ardent of Dean supporters and yet I don't have this burning need to go someplace new, pick a Dean-friendly screen name, and start a thread comparing my candidate to someone else. Are we focus group testing some new talking points? Trying to spread some new memes?

Those new DUers who have chosen candidate-specific names telegraph their full intention not to be long-term members. Of course, for me, that's also the good news.

Welcome to DU. I hope it serves all your various purposes, and so does DU Admin.

Eloriel

[kerryistheanswer]

20. Um - your icon doesn't give your affiliation away?

If Dean loses, will you lose the icon?

I don't need your permission or blessing on my posts so please keep the preaching to yourself. Neither the Internet or the DU is your turf. You can ignore topics as you please.

[Eloriel]

28. Sure it does, silly

And it's temprary -- uinlike one's ID at DU, of which we're only supposed to have one.

That was, indeed, my point. If you thought you might actually BE here past Nov 2004, you might have thought a little more carefully about your chopice of names. Even if Kerry wins right on thru to the White House, your ID is going to look a little silly. Or worse.

Get it now?

Eloriel

[KoKo]

30. Ummmmm....Kerry is the Answer..your "handle" sure gives you away!

You come on here "blasting away about Kerry" and we wonder about you given your "vitriol" on this thread.......hmmmmm $$$$$'s????

[kerryistheanswer]

33. An interesting way of looking at things ----

I suppose the rational Dean supporters should be disgusted by your cynical nature. I'm certainly not being paid by the Kerry campaign - in fact, I've been volunteering my time to to the cause because I care deeply about the direction of this country.

You and your buddy, eloriel, prove my initial point. Apparently, Dean is god, and all others are "evildoers".

Have fun with your conspiracy theories.

[KoKo]

38. Not cynical....realistic......and know both candidates....you don't seem

to have read anything about either.

[Guaranteed]

37. Black and white? You're kidding.

Start by looking at Dean's record in Vermont. He cut taxes- TWICE. The most common slight against Dean around here is that he's too conservative.

NOW he wants to rescind the tax cuts Bush got passed.

What that shows is that Dean believes that the times dictate the actions to be taken. Black and white thinkers don't work that way. Black and white thinkers do thing ONE way, all the time.

You're mistaking passion for narrow-mindedness. Dean's correct on almost all of his positions- and not because those positions have always been correct, but because they're correct for our country now.

[FrenchieCat]

40. But I thought

that Dean's records were sealed?????

Oh, that's right! Only 40% of the records.

So that the records you are talking about sealed or not sealed?

[kerryistheanswer]

41. Read today's Boston Globe piece on tax cuts

Decide for yourself whether Dean was solely responsible for the tax cuts ---
Well, at least you didn't personally attack me. You're actually somewhat rationale. I wish more Dean supporters on this board were like you.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/12/07/deans_tax_claims_bring_skepticism/

[KoKo]

43. Hey Kerry,,,,,it's just you and me here, in a flame war? No one's out

there anymore......do you get it?