Edwards responds to Dean's SC speech from Sunday

[moz4prez]

Senator Edwards released the following statement Sunday in response to Governor Howard Dean's speech in Columbia, South Carolina:

"While we all agree on the need to bring working class people of all races together to fight for better jobs, health care and education, coming to the South during the Sunday church hour to tell Southerners what they should believe is not the way to reach out to Southern Democratic voters.

"Democrats like Terry Sanford and Jim Hunt won in the South by running campaigns based on solid values and progressive ideas that would help lift all Americans, regardless of the color of their skin or economic background. As a Southerner and North Carolinian, I am proud of that tradition.

"I have no intention of ceding the values debate to George Bush -- anywhere in America. His values are not America's values and Democrats cannot be scared to take him on. There is only one way to win this fight, and that is by taking it directly to George Bush in every region of the country."

apologies if this is a dupe

[pruner]

1. Edwards is just pissed because

Dean's speech today showed him who his daddy really is…

:evilgrin:

[moz4prez]

3. so Dean's a millworker AND a metrosexual?

amazing

[Khephra]

2. Weak and disappointing

A whine if I ever heard one from Edwards.

[PurityOfEssence]

19. Read it in this light:

The issue here is "telling" voters what to think. Unfortunately, the wording makes it sound like it's merely sloppy timing, when the issue being raised here is, as Edwards has pointed out before, Dean's "arrogance".

Whenever I hear the word "whine" used, I immediately tense up with sense-memory of the bandwagon marginalizing of the right wing. Should we all kneel in obedience to the frontrunner from the heavens? Dean started as, and has continued as the most insulting to the fellow candidates. In my book, he does not deserve this moral highground and has only himself to blame for the rebukes he gets.

If you seriously think Edwards is feigning "hurt" over the intrusion on church time, then please re-read it in this light. You might also go to the Edwards Blog from which this is excerpted, and see the many other people with the same disgust for the Autocratic Doctor and his Edicts. The issue of the church hour is an enhancement of the ham-fisted nature of his bluster.

It's certainly unfortunate wording on Edwards' part here, but seizing on that and skewing it as the only issue is either extremely facile or deliberately obfuscatory.

[QC]

43. True, but too subtle a point for a crowd that wants a foodfight,

unfortunately.

All that matters to most people in this thread is that Edwards has blasphemed against Him Who Must Only Be Praised.

Anybody who knows the South knows that the condescending Yankee is an archetypal figure here, and not entirely without reason. I agree with Dean's speech but wish he would be more aware of how easily he can become that archetype.

As one poster on the Edwards blog pointed out, "values" are a big part of Southern politics, like it or not, and flatly telling people here that they should not vote on values is like telling people in Iowa they should not vote on farm policy. Possibly true but definitely unwise.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

65. Question. (From a mindless robot, apparently)

Where was the condescension in the speech?

Make that two questions. How does one avoid the Catch-22 of discussing the inherent wrongness of the Southern Strategy without talking to Southerners. Talking to Northerners about it doesn't accomplish shit.

Sorry, more questions. (I need a tune-up at the robot factory)

Is fighting hunger not a value that the South cherishes?
Is fighting for health care for children not a value that the South cherishes?
Is fighting for a better education for all not a value that the South cherishes?
Is discussing that there's no difference between blacks and whites not a value that the South cherishes?
Is discussing the fact that the South has been used by the right wingers to their detriment not something that the South finds valuable?

Beep, beep. Whirr, whirr. Beep, beep.

[QC]

96. Well, one could just cut to the chase

rather than engaging in a meta-discussion.

In other words, push the class agenda without giving us a dissertation on why one is pushing a class agenda and why one's listeners should be damn glad to hear that class agenda. It reminds me of George H.W.'s "Message: I care."

"Talking to Northerners about it doesn't accomplish shit."

Here's a nice example of what I mean. Do you honestly believe that the politics of race only applies in the South? Some people act as though it does, but let's stop to consider, among other things, how Pete Wilson got to be governor of California twice--by blaming immigrant Latinos for all the state's problems. It worked for him, and a more genteel version worked for his boy Arnold just a few weeks ago. Consider George Wallace's popularity in places like Pennsylvania and Michigan. Consider Boston's ugly racial history. And so on.

If a politician wants to talk about the politics of racial division, he doesn't have to save it up for South Carolina. The whole country would do well to hear that message.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

I agree. In general it's not just a message for the South.

But he was talking specifically about the "Southern Strategy" used by Republicans. That's why it's pertinent to the South. I'm honestly wondering how you think that subject should be approached "down there." Can only Southerners talk about it? Why be insulted when the message was obviously inclusive? What's a better way?


Btw, I've seen him a few times in Seattle. He talked about race and religion every time.

[QC]

136. That's a very tough question.

It would probably be easier for someone like Edwards to deal with the "Southern strategy" because he can present it as something "they" have done to "us." They have divided us so that they can make us poor, etc.

I think it's much harder for Dean to pull it off without sounding like that archetypal Yankee figure I was talking about. Telling "you" that "you" have fallen for a con job is hard to do graciously, even when people need to hear it.

FWIW, I do not doubt Dean's sincerity and I'm glad he's talking about class. I just think it might be better to stick to the class agenda and some nice talk about unity, rather than acting like he's come to deliver some medicine.

[babzilla]

125. listen here robot

yankees should talk about all of that stuff on a monday.

[PurityOfEssence]

68. Yikes, how'd we become allies so damned fast?

You're right on the money, and it's getting to be quite beyond perplexing how the Deanies can't or won't see this dangerous trait in their guy.

I've got a bit of an odd take on the regional issue at hand myself, coming from southern parents, and having spent much time and most of my summers in the South with relatives while growing up. I was raised in New England, though, so I have a fairly firm foot in both cultures.

There is a mantle of privilege that has been fairly consistently claimed by the more strident Dean partisans from the beginning: first, he was the unsullied and noble underdog, now he's the annointed standard-bearer. On the one hand, it's frustrating being caught in the crossfire and seeing the candidate I prefer being sandbagged and hectored, but even putting that aside, it's worrisome to see the consistent, cocksure recklessness of Dean and his loyalists. Finesse counts, dammit.

Ah well, it's not for the faint of heart.

(I'm working on a deadline tonight so won't be able to monitor this thread as much as I'd like.)

Nice post, brer.

[QC]

77. We only disagree on that one issue, as far as I know.

You know the one ;-)

As for the Edwards statement, I think it might be a bit clumsy, but I see his point. Dean is absolutely right on the need to get past the GOP's deliberate cultivation of racial and cultural divisions, but he's not the first person to notice that, and lecturing people is not the way to get it done.

[JNelson6563]

158. I think it's time Dems frame the language

I should think a lawyer would see the sense of that. Does Edwards think elections should be run on abortion, God and guns??

How dare Dean think the election should be about something else! Oy!

Julie

[QC]

160. And your point is?

[JNelson6563]

164. Am I speaking to fast for you?

We have let the Rs frame the language and therefore set the terms of debate. We need to frame the language and set the terms of the debate.

Edwards seems to be willing to disagree with this in order to break out his stock "We don't need some Yank comin' down here and tellin' us..."

Yes, we need to take control of this political landscape and this can only be done by what Dean claims. We set the terms, we frame the language. We put a stop to the Rs code words and scare tactic. Their divisive methods must be stopped.

Does Edwards not see this?

Julie

[QC]

165. No, not too fast.

Just too defensive of the Good Doctor to make much sense to someone who hasn't yet accepted him as Lord and Savior.

Hard as it might be to believe, there are some of us here at DU who like the Good Doctor but do not consider his every word Holy Writ.

Look around a bit and you'll see that some of us have offered some thoughts as to why Edwards might have a point here.

[slinkerwink]

4. that's just a total whine from Edwards

;-)

[drfemoe]

5. Dissing another democratic candidate

for their choice of when and where to make speeches "is not the way to reach out to Southern Democratic voters".
.. what party is Edwards representing?

Southern Dem Voter

[slinkerwink]

10. good post.....*winks*

Edwards just wishes that he had made that speech instead and that Dean wasn't playing on his home turf.

[Khephra]

6. If Edwards is going to keep up this North vs South BS

Then, as a Hoosier, I respectfully ask him to stop using NORTHERNER John Mellencamp's song for his campaign.

[dansolo]

7. Edwards is moving from my neutral to dislike list

These comments are completely uncalled for. Dean is trying to reach out to southern voters, and Edwards is trying to inflame the north/south division.

[robsul82]

8. "Well, this here son of a mill worker needs a tissue!"

*starts Mellencamp's "Small Town"*

Later.

RJS

[janx]

9. I'm disappointed in Edwards's doing this. He's pandering

to Southern provincialism and stereotype. And he knows damn well he's doing it, too.

Shame on him.

"How dare that Yankee come on down here and tell all us Southerners how to think?"

Really, this very transparent.

[AP]

11. Honestly, what he's doing is reminding southerners that Dean isn't very

religious.

If it's going to save the democrats from having a nominee whom Bush will destroy on this issue later, it's probably a good idea to bring it up now.

[madfloridian]

12. Baloney.

:crazy:

[drfemoe]

14. exactly

not enough to cause division among races, now Edwards wants to divide by religion too.

non-religious Southern Dem voter

[AP]

15. Gore - Divinity school attendee and religious.

Clinton-religious. Carter-very religious (a minister). LBJ-religious. JFK-religious.

If Dean wants to break new ground by being the first guy to run on not being religious, I just have to say, 2004 is probably too important to push that envelope.

[janx]

21. First of all, Edwards said nothing about religion--he appealed

to division, fear, and provincialism as hallmarks of Southerners. That is complete stereotype. If I were a Southerner (and I grew up on the Mason-Dixon line), I'd feel insulted.

Secondly, how would he know, and how would you know anything about Howard Dean's religion? How do you know about his relationship with God?

I've never had anything against Edwards, but this is disappointing.

[salin]

22. I thought he was a member (eg regular member)

of a Congregational Church in Vt. There was an article a while back describing an almost religious undertone (stylewise) to his speeches in a New Englandy Congregational sort of sense.

Not sure how to reconcile that with his "not being religious". This is the first I have heard that particular charge levelled against him.

[AP]

26. I thought he said about two weeks ago that he only goes to church twice...

...a year, or something like that.

[AP]

31. ...and didn't he call religious people "those people"

or something like that in a speech recently?

[salin]

42. Perhaps you do not realize how central

the congregational churches (small hubs for communities) are in Vermont? Throughout southeastern Vermont there will be a small church in nearly every community. They are in a more liberal tradition - when compared to southern evangelicism - but are pretty traditional (and overall somewhat conservative). I don't think he would be quite as dismissive as you portray and still be supported throughout his state (and elected multiple times).

As much as people at DU seem to have this conception of Vermont as this liberal bastion, the time I have spent there (visiting since childhood) in a rural southeastern part of the state, I have always come away with the impression of a very traditional - pragmatic but somewhat conservative (in a way of living, not necessarily politically) sense from the locals. Reading DU sometimes I think that folks perceive Vermont to be an atheist San Francisco type large commune. That is very, very different than reality.

[AP]

91. I don't need anecdotes about life in VT to know that Dean's going to give

the Republicans a lot of fodder to use to get out the Religious Right vote.

[AP]

100. I should also add, I think I misread Edwards's point. I think the quote...

...below from the Edwards blog (from "Drew") got it exactly right.

He's saying that Dean's coming down to the south, preaching like he invented how to run effectively in the south, and it's incredibly ahistorical, and the reductiveness of it sort of contradicts the point he's trying to make. The South is way more complicated than he pretends it is. Dean's talking about a point southerners passed 30 years ago. He's trying to back up history 30 years to make his supporters think he's doing something great. What he's actually doing is revealing how little he understands the south.

[salin]

134. which will either resonate or fall flat

that is part of the purpose of primaries (I have always said - the more (at least initially) the better in the primary process is good. Different strategies, messages and policies will be floated and will either be successful or fail - but in the meantime more issues get aired. That is indeed for the greater good.)

[salin]

132. but that is a given.

no one is innoculated from that. Look what they did to Cleland the war veteran. Look what they did to Gore - who was known for his integrity (he morphed into a habitual liar). If we keep looking for innoculations - we will continue to fail. Why? Because in the NEW (long past 1996) RNC election style - it doesn't have to be true to become campaign fodder - and slick marketing/manipulation seems to work to a certain extent.

Each candidate needs to be prepared - and have a strategy for responding. That is the only "innoculation".

[KaraokeKarlton]

166. And you're welcome to visit Vermont anytime!

Because you actually recognize that most of the comments made about my state are way out in left field, in more ways than one. Burlingron is fairly liberal but the rest of the state is actually quite conservative in the lifestyles of Vermonters. We have a live and let live mentality that gets mistaken for liberalism. We don't care what you do as long as you leave the rest of us alone to do our thing.

[drfemoe]

54. I doubt it

snip from Dean's speech:

"To distract people from their real agenda, they run elections based on race, "guns, God, and gays," dividing us, instead of uniting us."

You might be interested to read what a few Southern Republican voters have to say about *u*h's 'religion' ...

A Bitter Taste
*** - Ponchatoula, La.

I am one of those conservatives that has had it with Mr. Bush and his extravagant spending. When he set up the steel tariff, I knew he had not a clue. That was an extremely immoral act. To buy votes with other people's money is so wrong it shows a lack of moral compass.

Nothing is more disgusting than a Republican that acts like a Democrat.

I plan to leave the Republican Party. When I was 18 and I registered in Louisiana, there was no party and no primary. You had to be a Democrat to vote in a state election. That did not stop me. I registered Republican. I will never vote for Mr. Bush again nor will I vote for my Republican congressman David Vitter, if I find out that he voted for the drug bill that was forced on a nation that did not need or want it.

This will cost Mr. Bush the most faithful and hard core Republicans. It will put a bitter taste in the mouth of all that love freedom.
... more
http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/bminiter/responses.html?article_id=110004368

[salin]

37. I don't recall that

and had heard some todo over his switching churches to the Congregational Church. Then read the overtones (not all positive) about his speeches as having a religious fervor. These days it gets hard to tell what is real vs not in reporting. Lots of spinning going back and forth (and no, I do not agree that the entire media is involved in a conspiracy to set him up as the preferred fall guy to Bush. I think the media is working to trivialize each of the dem candidates.)

I paid particular attention to the Congregational Church thing as I was raised in an American Baptist church that merged with a United Church of Christ (congregational), and in adulthood joined the UCC (congregational). Was in Vermont (family - in a NOT liberal part of the state) this summer and attended a small Congregational Church (throughout the countryside in that region there will be many of these small churches - often with only 30-50 attendants due to the ruralness of the area, and the philosophy that it is better to be in a small community congregation than consolidated and driving long distances to be in a bigger congregation). It was very similar - though with a slightly more conservative bent - to my own Church.

[janx]

52. I was raised in the Congregational Church, as were my parents.

It was, intially, the church of the Pilgrims, the Separatists. That pesky matter of separation of church and state...

[drfemoe]

62. This is not the media

the reference link is to Edwards' campaign site.

[mrgorth]

47. Fuck religion

If Dean's not religious he's not going to fake it.

[dajabr]

34. He's not alone - by a 2-1 margin...

Religion splitting U.S. voters

By Steven Thomma
Knight Ridder

Des Moines, Iowa — Want to know how Americans will vote next Election Day? Watch what they do the weekend before.
If they attend religious services regularly, they probably will vote Republican by a 2-1 ratio. If they never go, they likely will vote Democratic by a 2-1 ratio.

This relatively new fault line in American life is a major reason that the country is politically polarized. And the division over religion and politics is likely to continue or even grow in 2004.

A new poll by the nonpartisan Pew Research Center For The People & The Press this fall confirmed that the gap remains; voters who frequently attend religious services tilt 63-37 percent to Bush and those who never attend lean 62-38 percent toward Democrats.

More: http://www.news-leader.com/today/1130-Religionsp-228598.html

I don't think I'm comfortable with this type pandering by Edwards.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

16. really, keeping the Sabbath is like... Religion 101

It'd be like a Catholic going to McDonald's on Friday (for the Big Mac). Edwards is just demonstrating regional sensibility. No reason to cry foul, he has a valid point.

[janx]

25. He's not demonstrating regional sensibility. He's playing

on provincial stereotype.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

36. provincial stereotype?

Gee I wonder who started doing that in this campaign? Perhaps Edwards is just returning the favor.

[janx]

55. See Eloriel's post, #30. She explains it much more thoroughly

than I did.

[slinkerwink]

23. Dean IS religious

He just doesn't like to flaunt it.

[slinkerwink]

13. ugh......it IS transparent

[Eloriel]

30. There's a little more to it than that and it's shameful

Remember when Edwards lit into Dean during the debate re the Confed flag issue?

The very words he used --- "Somebody like you coming down to the South to tell Southerners what to do ..." (or very similar words from Edwards) were the very words George Wallace and others used to try to fend off the integration efforts, including the Civil Right Act.

IOW, he was double-dipping: slamming Dean for his use of the Confed flag ALL THE WHILE using code words himself which rile up those bad old days whenthe South didn't want to mgive up segregation and plenty of Southerners just didn't want to be told what to do in any case. It was shameful then because it was so subtle AND because the ONLY thing Dean had "told" Southerners to do was vote for a Dem, preferrably him. So, in Edwards' world, only a Southerner can ask any Southerners to vote for them.

Now look at his words. He's drawing on that same deep strain of resentment and even , for those for whom this appeal works that way, race as a wedge issue.

So it's not just the GOP who uses race as a wedge issue, which is more shameful than I can imagine.

I'm truly disappointed in Edwards. I have thought him too "young" and inexperienced for this time, bit I'd imagined he had a real chance next time, but after this twin stunt, I'll not be one who supports him, and in fact,. will do what I can to keep this shameful, divisive and totally unnecessary stunt from dropping into any memory hole.

Eloriel

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

44. You caught the gist with this sentence:

So, in Edwards' world, only a Southerner can ask any Southerners to vote for them.


I read it exactly the same way. It's creating an "us and them" paradigm that doesn't belong in the 21st century. As I noted below, isn't 150 years of the Civil War enough? Why not say what he really thinks and call him a "carpetbagger?"

[janx]

58. In effect, he did.

.

[Eloriel]

86. So right, both of you n/t

[SadEagle]

140. Remember.

It's not the 'Civil War' for them. It's 'The War of Northern Aggression'.

And I think it's a really bizzare and twisted thing that this loss by the states of the Confederacy has somehow turned into a 'we are special' claim, reaching to the point of the region effectively having a 'veto' over who becomes the President of the whole United States.

<rant>
Oh, and Sen. Edwards. You told Gov. Dean that you have no use for 'his kind' telling folks what to do. I am sure people of 'his kind' --- in New York, Vermont, New England, much of the Mid-Atlantic states --- would find that a good reason to support your candidacy. Luckily for you, folks here seem to think of themselves as Americans more than North Easterners<1> --- or we would all be making predictions on how, should you get the nomination, you would not win any New England or Mid-Atlantic state.
</rant>

<1> Like I am sure virtually all southerners do; which makes me thing Edwards is insulting his part of the country as much as the rest.

[QC]

147. Where are these people

who lie awake nights fretting over a war that ended nearly 150 years ago?

I live in rural Mississippi, and aside from a few cranks who write incoherent letters to the editor now and then, I can't honestly say I know such people.

Treating people as a stereotype is not a very good way to get their support.

[slinkerwink]

79. I'd just like for the civil war not to be brought up again

[mikehiggins]

17. Whooops!

Senator Edwards seems to have lost his poise and composure. What's up with that?

[slinkerwink]

29. he's just threatened that Dean is competing in SC

;-)

[babzilla]

18. as long as its not during the "Sunday Church Hour"

"While we all agree on the need to bring working class people of all races together to fight for better jobs, health care and education...

But never on a Sunday folks, coming to the south during the sunday church hour is just not how it is done.

I guess you learn something new everyday. Thanks for the etiquette lesson John.

[salin]

27. Which hour is "church hour?"

around here there are churches that have services as early as 8am and as late as 5 pm. With a few, I am pretty sure, that run the complete time between those two times.

[babzilla]

45. I guess the whole day is out, just to be safe

but wait, Edwards put out the press release on a Sunday.

Hopefully there were no services going on while his statement was released.

No matter since he is a southerner, not to mention the son of a millworker, he doesn't have to worry about the timing, he's got a birthright to tell the southerners what's what even during the sacred "Sunday Church Hour".

Damn those Yankees, they just don't know any better.

[slinkerwink]

51. lol!

[slinkerwink]

33. hehehe, that's just lame

;-)

[janx]

39. You are aware, aren't you, that Dean *attended church* there

before giving the speech later at a hotel?

Edit: Sorry--I see now that you were being sarcastic.

[Lugnut]

20. Geez, John!

Whining is so unbecoming. :eyes:

[AP]

24. It looks like "whine" is the operative spin word here. Define please.

Would anyone care to define "whine" and explain how this is a whine? Specific reference to the texts would be most helpful.

[moz4prez]

144. to dare utter a valid criticism of the guy who leads a Zogby poll

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

28. What the hell is he talking about?

It doesn't make sense.

He's basically saying Dean doesn't have a right to campaign in the South.

:wtf:

"Tell Southerners what they should believe..." Uh, John, he's telling them what he believes. By this token we won't be seeing you "up North" anymore, telling Northerners what they should believe. Right, John?


Isn't a 150 years of the Civil War enough?:grr:

[janx]

35. The quote itself is an oft-repeated stereotype.

You know, the slick Yankee coming down South to tell the "dumb" Southerners how to think.

It's an old one.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

50. Why didn't he just come out and call him a "carpetbagger?"

Instead of using code words? :shrug:

[janx]

59. He may as well have, yes. And as I said above, in

essence, that's exactly what he did.

[PBinOregon]

41. Extremely Ironic

There's Dean's great speech talking about how we're all in this together, followed by Edwards' statement that no, Southerners are different and can't be approached during Sunday church hour with an appeal for community.

Huge sigh. I like Edwards, but this is a lame statement. It's divisive, and the reason I back Dean is that he is calling for an end to these kind of divisions.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

48. Yes, ironic.

[Renew Deal]

61. I hate to say it

in a nice thread for Dean but I think Dean is divisive too. All his Bush-Lite BS is not helpful. Of course, in the context of this situation you are correct.

[HuckleB]

32. How did Dean "tell Southerners what they should believe"?

This is ugly. I just lost a lot of respect for Edwards.

[Guaranteed]

63. I don't get it either.

I've never respected him since the flag incident, though. His rhetoric is pretty bad.

[Fleshdancer]

38. Edwards speaks for the entire South???

Is Edwards my token Southern spokesperson? Gee, I didn't get the memo...it must have been sent to that church I don't attend. :eyes:

The only thing worse than some Yankee politician talking to me during "church hour" (is there only one?) about jobs, health care and education is some Southern politician telling that Yankee when, where, and how I, as a Southerner, should be addressed...THIS is not the way for Southern politicians to reach out to Southern Democratic voters.

[poskonig]

40. What gives with Edwards?

This attack is completely incoherent. I understand Dean gave him ammo before with the Confederate flag stuff, but this recent attack by Senator Edwards is awkward and somewhat mean-spirited.

[slinkerwink]

46. it's because Edwards is threatened by Dean in SC

I think the Edwards campaign must've done some internal polling and found out that Dean was on top or had a great message within the communities there.

[killbotfactory]

49. Put down the crack pipe, Edwards

Southerners are Americans. That means Dean gets to talk to them. I'm sorry you take offense every time Dean opens his mouth in the south, but you really need to get over it.

[sandnsea]

53. Republicans going to SF?

and telling them what their values should be, based on some sort of broad gay stereotypes, for example??? Going to San Francisco and campaigning against the gay agenda and sounding self-righteous when they do it? That IS what Republicans do and I think that's what John Edwards is saying Howard Dean sounds like with his approach in the south. If you can make the translation.

I really don't know, I liked the speech for the most part. Edwards is right though, racial division like that happens all over the country. He could give the same speech in California and talk about Mexicans instead of blacks and it would still fit. Maybe that's the rub, Dean only gives this kind of speech in the south, so far, so it sounds like he's labeling the south racist and no other part of the country.

[slinkerwink]

56. he said the same thing on FOX

not just in the south.

[sandnsea]

80. About the south?

The Fox comments being directed at the south, even in passing implications?

Why doesn't he have a similar speech for California, the Southwest, northern cities, Indian areas, etc.? Racism isn't just in the south and people in other parts of the country vote on god, guns and gays too. I think that's what Edwards is saying. It's fine to talk about all of this stuff, but it's not okay to pretend it's just a southern issue or that all southerners are the same.

I really don't know, the remarks are kind of strange to me really. Just thinking out loud... on the computer... we need a new cliche.

[slinkerwink]

88. he said that ALL americans, not just the south, deserved to have health

care, etcetera.

[sandnsea]

156. Well of course

But that's not the part of the speech that has anybody upset, if they are or whatever.

It's the part where he goes down south and talks to them like they're all racists who can't base a vote on anything except god, guns and gays. And race.

You couldn't give that speech up in Montana and be talking about Indian racism because it just doesn't fit. Or in L.A. about racism and intolerance of Mexicans or illegals because it just doesn't fit.

That speech only fits the south, he talks about the Southern Strategy in it for heaven's sake. If he wants to talk about racism, talk about it. He doesn't need to act as if it's only a southern problem and that it's high time a white guy from the north came down there and told them all to shape up.

[QC]

157. DING!!! DING!!! DING!! DING!!! DING!!!

{insert Drudge's siren icon here}

We have a winner!

This is one of the best posts I've ever seen at DU! Seriously--this one captures the whole issue.

By implicitly declaring that only the South has a race problem, Dean is exhibiting the very ignorance of Southern politics that so many of us here have been talking about for so long.

As Malcolm X said, "Racism is as American as apple pie." Pretending that only the South has a "race problem" ignores that reality, to the peril not only of a Democratic win in 2004 but also of ever getting to genuine racial justice in this country.

I agree with Howard Dean about the need to talk about how the Right has exploited racial divisions, but where we differ is his apparent conviction that only the South has a problem with race.

[Eloriel]

98. HE ADDRESSES IT IN EVERY DAMN STUMP SPEECH

And yes, I'm yelling. I've heard it over and over and over again. This was a whole speech about it. Can you dig that?

Jeebus you people drive me nuits.

Eloriel

[Renew Deal]

57. Home base to Edwards

you are becoming irrelevant. WTF is this stuff. I mean he basically agrees with Dean on everything except church hour? Edwards needs to go away. He isn't going anywhere and he is making noise about nothing.

[QC]

60. Interesting post from the Edwards blog.

A very sensible take on what Edwards seemed to mean in his statement.

Dean continues to talk about this strategy as if it were his own invention. It's not. Democrats have been winning campaigns in the South for decades using the same strategy - unifying voters on issues like education, health care, and jobs, even while Republicans divide them by race. Edwards notes two such campaigns above, and of course, there are others. By pretending that this strategy was born in Burlington, Dean denies the hard work of a generation of Southern Democrats.

Further, in denying that hard work, he essentially reduces the South to little more than a region defined by race, and the exploitation of it for political gain. After all, if Southern Democrats haven't been talking about health care, education, and jobs, what have they been discussing? It's not a flattering characterization.

Finally, by pretending that this strategy was born in Burlington, he sets himself up as a messiah, leading Southerners from their backwater towns to a better way.

[Khephra]

64. "he sets himself up as a messiah"???

(edit...I re-read that. Edwards isn't saying that,someone on the blog is.)

[slinkerwink]

69. Yeah, god, what a total douche

:mad:

[Renew Deal]

76. I am not sure if that's from him

or a supporter. I would be suprised if he said that.

[AP]

83. It's from the supporter, and it's a brilliant analysis.

[slinkerwink]

89. of course you would think that, heh

;-)

[AP]

94. Yes, because I haven't checked critical thought at the door.

;-)

Right?

Tell me what isn't smart about that analysis.

[slinkerwink]

95. because Dean isn't a messiah

because if he was, then he'd completely dwarf the movement, but the movement is larger than him.

[AP]

102. You have the messianic power! You have the messianic power!

You have the messianic power!

[slinkerwink]

107. now I know you're really feeling threatened when you have to resort

to that.

[AP]

109. to humor? Whatever.

You people need to lighten up.

[AP]

82. That's what Drew said. Not Edwards. And it's true. Reread it.

[Eloriel]

104. If that's what pretty boy meant, he should've said that

I imagine someone who's the world-class trial attorney he is supposed to be can do better with an opportunity to knock a competitor than that. I think John knew exactly what he was saying. Too bad he was too caught up in it to see how petty he sounds.

Eloriel

[AP]

112. Like any of the Deaniacs care about what he meant.

Just so long as you can spin it, the meaning's irrelevant.

And when confronted with Drew's pretty clear post, the best you have is another spin that Edwards has a hard time with language and meaning,

OK.

What about what Drew said?

[drfemoe]

123. We know what he meant

About what Drew said .. it doesn't matter what Edwards says as long as Drew can spin it ..

OK.

[AP]

126. What if Drew has it right and you have it wrong?

I suspect that, since nobody is bothering to address Drew's post, there might be something to it.

[drfemoe]

128. Please reply to

post #93 .. which does address Drew's POV.

edit: and #122

[drfemoe]

119. What will Edwards say

if any of the other candidates decide to campaign in the South?
.. Off Limits? ! ? !

[Julien Sorel]

67. And that's the trick.

Dean continues to talk about this strategy as if it were his own invention. It's not. Democrats have been winning campaigns in the South for decades using the same strategy - unifying voters on issues like education, health care, and jobs, even while Republicans divide them by race. Edwards notes two such campaigns above, and of course, there are others. By pretending that this strategy was born in Burlington, Dean denies the hard work of a generation of Southern Democrats.


Dean comes along acting as though he's invented, not just the wheel and the internet, which we all know he deserves credit for, but campaigning on economic interests. Dean points out the obvious and his cultists indulge in an orgy self-congratulation, while ignoring the fact that Dean did nothing more than point out the obvious. The whole Dean speech wasn't designed to win votes in the South so much as it was designed to create the image that Dean is a viable candidate in the South, that he has some kind of great strategy, and that all those party core people (the cockroaches) who are worried about a thumping don't need to.

Politics is easy to the Deanites:

'Dean isn't like Dukakis. You can't smear him as being soft on defense'

Why not?

'Because he'll fight back!'

Wow. Thanks for sharing. No one ever thought of that before.


These folks are delusional, and this great 'Southern Strategy' is another symptom of the delusion. Historically, delusional gets thumped big, unfortunately.

[AP]

74. Good interpretation. I'm going over there to see who wrote that.

I think that's exactly the point Edwards is making.

Dean does the same thing when he says he's the first Democrat to talk bluntly about race. He erases a long history of Democrats talking bluntly to white audiences about race.

[drfemoe]

93. Born in Burlington?

Dean continues to talk about this strategy as if it were his own invention. It's not. Democrats have been winning campaigns in the South for decades using the same strategy - unifying voters on issues like education, health care, and jobs, even while Republicans divide them by race.

If Democrats have been winning campaigns ... using the same strategy, why is it WRONG for Dean to win a campaign with that strategy?

As far as Dean implying it was birthed in Burlington, where does that perception come from? John Edwards?

[janx]

101. The blogger who wrote that is tripping.

.

[AP]

105. Why? Where's your argument.

References to the text are appreciated.

[janx]

122. "Born in Burlington" ??

Where is there any evidence that Dean thinks that?

[AP]

129. The evidence is all over DU.

How many times do people post "Dean is reinventing campaigning" or "Dean is the first to do X" etc etc etc.

[AP]

131. Dean is acting like he's the first to do it, which denies history, which

creates the exact oppositie of the impression he's trying to make (ie, that he understands the south).

[drfemoe]

139. IMO

the impression Dean is trying to make (and succeeding in large measure) is that he understands "Americans" (human beings).

And he may not be the "first" to do that. But that approach certainly stands out in the current political climate.

[babzilla]

99. a very sensible take

If one cares to set themselves up as a messiah, the "Sunday Church Hour" is the best time to do it. LOL

[janx]

103. HA! You are cracking me up in this thread!

.

[dkf]

151. I wonder if this isn't going to be even more helpful with non-southerners

who are unfamiliar with Nixon's "southern strategy"?

Not being from the south, I had no idea what this whole "code word" thing was all about.

Now that I do know, I find it disgusting and repulsive beyond belief.

[Rose Siding]

66. The kid chooses to divide

"during the church hour"??? He's dividing by religion AND region. Too sad.

[janx]

75. Yes, he is. It's hard to imagine that he doesn't realize he's

doing it right after Dean's speech, which included that very subject.

[DFLforever]

70. My oh my - John's beginning to sound like a Lieberman

Guess he just doesn't like being outpolled in the state where he was born.

[slinkerwink]

72. ha, so true....

[Leftist78]

71. I don't get this either

The stuff after the confederate flag stuff was completely justified, but there's no reason for this. It's just mean-spirited.

[Fleshdancer]

73. Am I weird for not understanding?

I'm a Southern Democrat. I've lived up North for several years, but now I'm back in my home state. As far as political ideology goes, I never felt that Democrats were any different up North than down here. In fact, the biggest difference I've ever noticed has nothing to do with politics, it would be weather and accent. And as a Southerner I must say, we do have better weather and better accents. ;-) ha ha!

I'm interested in hearing from any DUers from the North that have spent a few years in the South or is currently living in the South for their perspective...and no, visiting crazy Aunt Thelma from Tenessee for a few days does NOT count.

[janx]

81. I haven't spent years down South, but I've spent some time

there, enough time to know that...you have some DAMN GOOD FOOD!

Especially in N'awlins!

[janx]

85. Of course, I'm from St. Louis, and we have the best ribs.

.

[Fleshdancer]

mmmmm. ribs!

Okay here's the deal...completely off topic, but my husband is interviewing for a job in St. Louis tomorrow. If I move there, you'll have to take me to a good rib joint. If you don't, I'll totally bad mouth you on DU for a good 6 months or so or until I either get kicked off or bored for doing so! :evilgrin:

Deal???

[janx]

110. I was born and raised there, but I don't live there anymore.

I live in Colorado now...You can get some good barbequed ribs almost anywhere in St. Louis, as long as you avoid the chain restaurants.

I'd love to take you out to eat if you lived in Colorado. (The food is not as good as St. Louis ribs or the food in the South though.)

[Fleshdancer]

118. Damn!

Well if you're in Colorado, I hope you've had the flu shot!

I'll definately take up your offer if I'm ever in Colorado, but until then, if you're ever in Austin, TX, let me know!

[janx]

124. I haven't had a shot, but I've been around a lot of sick people.

Many of my students have been ill, and my younger daughter was sick for a couple of weeks.

Her high school had 280 students absent on a single day about a month ago, and the next day there were over 300 absent.

[Fleshdancer]

138. I'll pay for your shot!

My best friend is from Colorado and her and her husband are visiting Denver over Christmas. She doesn't watch the news so I think I scared the hell out of her telling her about the flu epidemic in CO.

I don't like the fact that you've been around "a lot of sick people" and haven't had a shot. If they have any flu shots left in that state, let me know and I'll personally pay for the damn thing!

By the way, I don't know what makes me more nervous...the fact that your teenage daughter was sick, or the fact that you have a teenage daughter! My daughter is only 3 and I'm already scared about the teenage years.

[janx]

141. Thanks--I'll get a shot.

When you are in St. Louis, if you have time, visit the art museum. It's a good one.

[Fleshdancer]

142. Looks like we both have insomnia!

My inlaws already moved to St. Louis (good or bad? You decide) I've been to the wonderful zoo and to the Magic House...my daughter loved it. (okay, I did too).

I'm a sucker for art museums though so is it the St. Louis Art Museum, or is there only one therefore I don't need to bother with exact names?

[janx]

145. St. Louis art museum. A big one.

You'll like it!

[Eloriel]

113. I'm one of those Damn Yankees

Came and stayed. :-)

I've lived in GA for 17 years now, 5 of them now in RURAL Georgia. I certainly don't claimexpert status, but here I am, anyway.

Which part are you confused about?

Eloriel

[Fleshdancer]

127. Do you see a difference?

First of all, I read your posts all the time and I always like what you have to say. :hi:

Since you are a "damn Yankee" (hee hee) living in the South, I want to know if you've noticed a difference in Democratic ideology.

The reason why I ask is because Edwards discusses how to approach "Southern Democratic voters" when I think Dean is actually trying to approach a whole different set of people...the Southern moderate Republicans. (the same people who use to vote Democratic but now either vote Republican, or not at all.)

As a "Southern Democratic voter" myself (and having lived up North for a little over just 3 years), Edwards doesn't make much sense in his comment because as I see it, Southern Democratic voters share the same ideology as Northern Democratic voters...hence our voting for Democratic candidates.

Do I make any sense?

[Rose Siding]

78. WAIT a minute! Is 1pm the "church hour" in SC??

Wasn't this speech given at 1pm? Aren't most protestant churches out by noon?

[janx]

84. Yes, and as I pointed out earlier--Dean *attended church* that

very morning!

[Rose Siding]

87. So Edwards is, more or less,

reaching to mislead in his devisive remarks? We need to have some kind of madatory leadership class before we send a Dem to the Congress.

[janx]

90. As far as I can tell, yes. That's what he's doing.

And frankly, I'm surprised. I thought he was smarter than that.

[slinkerwink]

97. not when he's threatened by Dean's success

;-)

[janx]

106. Maybe Dean's success makes him do stupid, stupid things!

?

[slinkerwink]

108. sorta like what Kerry, Lieberman, and Gephardt are doing.....heh

[janx]

115. Yeah, though Geppy wasn't quite as crazy as the rest.

Have you ever listened to Geppy without watching him? My husband swears he sounds exactly like John Wayne.

What I hear is a very strong St. Louis dialect. "Harse" instead of "horse." "Carn" instead of "corn."

Check it out sometime!

[slinkerwink]

92. yep, he's lying about the church hour part.

[AP]

114. Jeez. You people are giving me Gore v Bush flashbacks.

[ochazuke]

111. Prediction

Dean (if nominated) will not carry a single Southern state. He will not carry Missouri or Kentucky either. The West will go totally for Bush (Pacific states probably for the Dems.)

Edwards (if nominated) may carry as many as seven Southern and border states, plus as many as four Western states.

Dean has all the momentum now, so Edwards is looking small, especially because he has to resort to the tactic of attacking the front-runner.

But, if you think about these candidates in the light of history and the reality of American electoral politics, it's clear that only a double-dip recession with unemployment around 6.5 to 7% by next summer will give a Dean even a long shot at the White House. Edwards would probably win in such an environment.

In short, it's looking grim for the Democrats.

[janx]

116. Oh, go cry in your beer.

It is NOT looking like anything even close to that.

[AP]

117. In '92 the Dems went with the right candidate. I have (blind?) faith that

they'll do it again.

I'm pretending that Gore never happened.

[Eloriel]

120. And Edwards turning into

a 16-year old will surely help, right?

BTW, I don't think you knmow enough about Dean or his campaign to make a realistic prediction of that sort.

Eloriel

[Julien Sorel]

146. Yes, because Dean has the power to alter the reality

of voting patterns. Note how both yourself and the other Deanite who attacked this post had no counter-argument -- just the usual Deanite empty rhetoric.

Dialogue with a Deanite:

No president in modern history has lost a campaign with economic performance similar to what we have now. It's going to be a tough battle, and Dean doesn't have the appeal in the South to fight the battle on every front.

Deanite A: 'I don't think you know enough about Dean's campaign to make that assessment' (Note the ad-hominem in place of an argument).

Deanite B: 'I'm tired of the pessimism.' (Another ad-hominem.)

Wouldn't the proper thing to do be to dispel the pessimism with evidence? Say, some data showing that the economy isn't a factor in Bush's favor? Or show a sitting president who has lost with an economy as good as, or better than, this one? Even in the worst days of Vietnam, the economy was still an overriding asset to Nixon -- it dwarfed the war in peoples' minds. Anyone who thinks Iraq will reverse that is living in fantasyland.

Calling people ignorant pessimists only makes me believe they aren't being pessimistic enough, because it underscores just how out of touch with the reality of a campaign against Bush you people are.

But never mind that. Let's just believe that the economy is horrible, that either A) the South is unimportant; or B) Dean will win Southern states, and that Bush is a pansy and a pushover waiting for someone to come along and mug him for his electoral lunch money. It's the un-pessimistic thing to do.

[Schmendrick54]

168. I will try to accept the challenge.

Hello BillyBunter,

You wrote:
"Wouldn't the proper thing to do be to dispel the pessimism with evidence? Say, some data showing that the economy isn't a factor in Bush's favor? Or show a sitting president who has lost with an economy as good as, or better than, this one? Even in the worst days of Vietnam, the economy was still an overriding asset to Nixon -- it dwarfed the war in peoples' minds. Anyone who thinks Iraq will reverse that is living in fantasyland. "

Here is my attempt at doing "the proper thing". The economy is a multi-dimensional sort of thing, which can be measured in dozens, if not hundreds, of ways, but I would suggest that in many important ways (including employment and job creation rates) the economy today is measureably worse (and likely to stay that way until the election) than it was in 1992, when we tossed out another President Bush. The fact that the growth rate of some measures of the economy have shown some strength lately is as much a result of the incredibly poor performance of the economy in the last three years as it is of any real strength. For specific data you can check <http://jobwatch.org/> to see how the current employment picture compares to previous economic downturns (including the 1991 recession). As shown in the chart, the total employment figure for the US remains below the level of 24 months ago (Nov 2001) when the recession officially ended. This is the first time that has happened in the last 60 years (at least). The previous worst performance in this regard was the 1991 recession.

I hope this qualifies as evidence. I certainly do not wish to suggest that you or anyone else is ignorant or unduly pessimistic; but I do think that there is reason to believe that Bush can be defeated based on the economy. (I also feel that most of the Democratic candidates can make a strong case for doing a better job than Bush on Bational Security -- including Dean, Clark, and Kerry, to name a few -- but that is a different topic.)

Regards,
Schmendrick

[janx]

121. I didn't mean to sound rude. I'm just not interested in

defeatism. Too many people get wrapped up in some kind of Eeyore mindset around here sometimes.

[Leftist78]

130. umm...just one question

I agree with you that Dean wouldn't carry a single southern state, but you really think Edwards would carry seven?

Edwards is one of my favorite candidates, and I believe he could wipe the floor with * but NO dem would get that many states down here.

Just out of curiosity, which seven?

[AP]

135. TN, NC, SC, LA, FL (maybe), VA, AR?

Play with the map

http://www.johnedwards2004.com/map/

[Leftist78]

137. hmm...

TN doubt it
NC yes
SC not in a million years
LA possible
FL iffy
VA possible
AR possible

that's my take on it

on edit: I do believe that Edwards would do best out of anybody down here with Clark doing second best here.

[ochazuke]

143. as many as seven Southern states (which means probably fewer)

They are:

NC
FL
AR
LA
VA
TN
GA

But it's 99% certain that the number would be fewer. Probably more like two to four, which would be more than enough.

Oh, and about not knowing enough about Dean. Maybe I don't know enough about him, but neither do Southerners. And, my point is, they never will. His accent and demeanor alone will shut their minds to him. His policies are totally irrelevant.

[Leftist78]

149. maybe I'm just not as optimistic

because I'm in such a solid red state, but I think that realistically even with a southern candidate like Clark or Edwards we can probably only hope for four at the absolute most and it'll probably really end up being more like two, but honestly that's probably enough.

[depakid]

155. So basically you're saying that most Southerners are stupid?

or prejudiced to the point of outright disinterest?

Hmm. Doesn't sound like the "new South" I hear touted all of the time.

Also, I don't hear much of an accent when Dean talks- but then again, as a Westerner, I don't perceive myself as having an accent, either- though I probably sound like I do to all of my southern relatives, most of whom have a thick two consonant drawl.

[dkf]

153. How is Edwards supposed to take 7 southern states?

I don't think he's even winning his own state against Bush.

[ima_sinnic]

161. I am saving your post to my hard drive

so in November 2004 I can bring it out and make note of how very VERY wrong you were.

[Pastiche423]

133. So long farewell, auf weidersehen goodbye

Johnny boy.

You would do well by following the works of the great man you mentioned, Terry Sanford. Instead you sully his name and what he stood for.

[slinkerwink]

148. what did Terry Sanford do?

[drfemoe]

150. Terry Sanford --

http://www.pubpol.duke.edu/welcome/chronicle/index.html

Enough keystrokes for me on this thread .. later!

[Pastiche423]

152. Terry Sanford

was the epitome of the Southern Gentleman.

He was known, where I grew up, as the education governor. He gave raises to all teachers (my teachers loved him!) and established many community colleges. He was the president of Duke University for quite awhile. (Can't remember how long.)

He believed in racial equality in employment when it was not popular in the south. Racial relations were horrid back then.

But what I remember most about him, was that he was the tallest man I had ever seen. I met him at a campaign party in the early sixites when I was about eight or nine.

He bent down (and I still had to look way up to him) took my white gloved hand in his and asked me about school. I proudly told him I made straight A's. He told me he was proud of me too and to never stop asking questions. I took him at his word, and haven't stopped asking questions. lol

In my memory, he was the last great Democrat in North Carolina.

[CWebster]

154. divisive and pandering

and disgusting. As if Dean didn't have a moral or ethical message to be intruding on "church time". Edwards hasn't got a song but he would rather jeopardize another Democrat's odds against Bush, while preaching the higher road during the debates.

Someone get the snot-nose off the stage.

Who needs Republicans...when the Democrats are more than willing to do them favors.

[ima_sinnic]

159. I'm tired of Edwards' bristling anytime a candidate addresses

"The South"

So he's from a southern state--big whoop. He acts like The South is a place unto itself that only HE can penetrate, not a part of these United States of America. There are also states in the East, West, and North; should people in those other regions tell Edwards he can't go there and tell them what values they should be espousing? By constantly referring to himself as "a son of the South" and jumping up and down indignantly everytime another candidate has the temerity to address "his" constituents he sets himself further and further apart from the rest of the country. Okay, John, so go for those southern states--but you really need a whole lot more than that to win the nomination.

But also, I really fail to see what relevance his remarks have to Dean's speech. Am I missing something? --because the speech was ENTIRELY about "solid values and progressive ideas that would help lift all Americans, regardless of the color of their skin or economic background."

[QC]

162. Did you take a glimpse at the other 150 or so posts here

before posting your reply?

If so, you might have noticed that the questions you asked in this post were answered once or twice or three times or more before you got here.

[ima_sinnic]

163. normally I read all the posts before posting my own

--but this time I felt my bile rising and just wanted to get out my gut reaction. yes, now that I have read through the entire thread I see sentiments very similar or virtually the same as mine. SO?? that means I shouldn't post my feelings in my words?? my questions are rhetorical. there are no "answers" in the previous posts. Edwards is setting himself up as a regional candidate and adding absolutely nothing to a serious unified front against Bush. He has forgotten the other 42 or 43 or however many states in the union. Good-bye John.

[slinkerwink]

167. Proof Dean Attended Sunday Church Before Giving His Speech

[October]

169. So, by his own (seriously flawed) logic...

I guess we shouldn't expect to see Edwards anywhere north of the Mason-Dixon Line anytime soon, huh? What's his plan anyway (as a self-proclaimed "proud Southerner and North Carolinian")to campaign only in the Carolinas for the presidency?

At least Dean doesn't run around yelling "I'm from New England! I'm from New England!" He gets around.

Edwards can't handle the north! And he's ticked off because a Yankee showed up in his back yard. (How'd he ever get in! And during church hour! The horror!)

Northern candidates are supposed to tippy-toe through the south -- but it's somehow ok for southern candidates to totally ignore/insult the north. What's with that?




:grr:

[Schmendrick54]

170. Still hoping for a response ...

This is a shameless bump in the hope that someone will respond to my attempt to explain why Howard Dean can hope to defeat Bush based on previous voter behavior. Please see reply #168 above in response to #146.

I believe that reply #168 addresses the notion that every attempt to respond to a prediction that Dean cannot win is "empty Deanite rhetoric". What does anyone else think? (I am starting to feel like a "thread-killer", since it seems like every thread I post to dies immediately. Is it my breath? )

Regards,
Schmendrick