LIHOP: Payne Stewart and a hole in the story eight miles wide

[WilliamPitt]

Two disparate threads here.

1. A year or two before September 11, professional golfer Payne Stewart takes off in a private chartered jet to Dallas. 4 and 1/2 minutes into the flight, the plane suffers explosive decompression in the cabin, and everyone suffocates. The plane flies on towards Dallas on auto-pilot.

The radarman below loses radio contact 4 and 1/2 minutes after takeoff, and calls the Air Force (he did not have to get permission from the Defense Department or George W. Bush; he just picked up the phone). Standard Operating Procedure = call the Air Force. 21 minutes after the jet took off, there were two F-16s off either wing doing a visual inspection. They watched the thing auger in, but would have shot it down if it looked to threaten residential areas. SOP.

OK. Second thread.

2. One of the most damning and inexplicable aspects of LIHOP is the fact that four commercial airliners, each of which was lighting up radar stations all along the Eastern seaboard, were able to fly rogue for over an hour before the Air Defense system kicked in. Two blew up buildings in Manhattan, a third was screaming towards Washington, and a fourth was orbiting over Pennsylvania.

Every station was clarioning TERRORISM TERRORISM TERRORISM, but (so the LIHOP story goes), not one combat aircraft took wing until the deal had gone down. The excuse for this is 'Incompetence,' though no one has been fired, demoted or reprimanded for incompetently allowing the deaths of thousands of civilians. The commonly-used phrase in LIHOPese is 'Stand-down Order.')

Payne Stewart got company after 21 minutes. These four commercial airliners got nothing.

Or did they...?

The fourth plane, the one brought down by the "Let's Roll" platoon in Pennsylvania, lost an engine. It landed eight miles away from the crash site. Eight miles. 42,240 feet.

A rather explosive distance, yes?

Imagine this. Certain individuals within the government became aware that a large attack was coming, but did not know the details. The word 'hijacking' was commonly heard, evincing a strategic situation most of these boys had dealt with back in their Reagan administration years. Think Cheney, Rumsfeld, Perle, Wolfowitz, Poindexter, Abrams - all of whom subscribe to the 'Rebuilding America's Defenses' theory that only a "cataclysmic, catalyzing event like a new Pearl Harbor" (p.51) could bring about the changes they desired to make in the fundamental underpinnings of American government.

These boys had handled hijackings before, but this...this was totally off the grid. This was so much bigger than they expected, frighteningly so. Who knew those buildings were going to fall down?

They couldn't believe it, and therefore hesitated to order the deliberate shoot-down of the second New York plane and the Pentagon plane, until it was too late. Imagine having to give that order? They hesitated. And there was this fourth plane out there, over Pennsylvania, and turning east. That was the plane they shot down, causing an engine to land eight miles away from the final crash site, because it was blown off the plane by a missile.

The fighters were up that day, I think. A little late off the ground, perhaps, understandable considering this is the continental core and it is peacetime and our domestic air-defenses are not as sharp and well-funded as they once had been, but have been diverted overseas to places like Iraq and Kosovo. But they were up in time to take down that fourth plane...once someone made that terrifying decision.

LIHOP is a conspiracy theory right now. Like all theories, it requires large-scale speculation at times to fill holes made by lack of hard data, and it requires a belief that a lot of people can keep a big secret for a long time (think Warren Commission). Explaining all this to someone, including the 'Stand-Down' theory, brings the inevitable question, "What? These guys managed to shut down the entire East coast air defense syetem, which includes thousands of people, during the worst attack ever on American soil, and everyone was in on it? Or enough of everyone to keep the lid on? No way."

A good question. So feature this.

The air defense system did react, but maybe a little late. The decision had to be made whether to shoot these planes down and deliberately kill civilians. The people who have to make the decision to do this are the ones who knew something was coming, but did not know what. The scale of it had already freaked them, and the added weight of a deliberate shoot-down must have been stunning.

The deal is going down, the biggest power play in the history of the world. Each of the participants are feeling the inevitable "If I get caught, I'm doomed" emotions and fears that come along with the commital of serious crimes. Suddenly, it is a thousand times worse than they imagined, and their former experience was useless, and now if they got caught they had the blood of thousands on their hands.

And you want me to do what now? Deliberately shoot down civilians? They froze up, and the air defense system - with no one ordering the pilots to pull the trigger - froze. Until finally they knew it was real, it was happening, holy mother of God, and they ordered the last plane to be downed.

Think they're going to advertise the fact that they shot down a commercial aircraft? Which story do you like better for PR purposes? Air Force Pilot Forced To Shoot Down Passenger Jet To Save Capitol Building; Hundreds More Die...or...Herioc Passengers Destroy Terrorists, Crash Own Plane To Save America.

The fighters were up that day, I think.

[grasswire]

1. well........

...I think you have to take into account the info that a drill was being conducted that morning by the NRO and the CIA using the scenario of a plane crashing into a gov't building near Dulles airport. The drill was being monitored in the WH's situation room with (it is said) Cheney on hand there.

I believe this is the untold story of 9-11. It explains all of the delays and standdowns.

And I cannot understand why the WH hasn't used this drill as their excuse for all the weird stuff that day. It's the perfect cover.

[WilliamPitt]

2. You want to know why they haven't used it?

"A drill was being conducted that morning by the NRO and the CIA using the scenario of a plane crashing into a gov't building near Dulles airport."

...inevitable response...

"You were in the middle of an active drill to combat the same scenario that was unfolding around you, and you couldn't react to it?"

[grasswire]

5. not exactly

I think it explains why the usual reactions didn't occur. Such as scrambling jets. People were confused. Some thought for a long time that it was the drill, not a real event.

And who knows whether it was Cheney actually giving orders from the situation room. Maybe he was hands on and interfered.

Lots of links on this page, just find NRO for the right graf.

http://www.911truth.org/questions.html

[papau]

44. Boston area buzz was that the Cape Cod folks got no order to shoot

Indeed there may be an interview or two in the Globe archives about the Buzz.

Now why would they have no order to shoot down the plane?

And why would the General in testimony to congress say they flew at top speed but were late, when such a time line makes "top speed" about 500 mph for a plane that flies at 1100mph?

[knowledgeispower]

94. Consider this:

I have long believed that the Pennsylvania flight was all part of the LIHOP conspiracy. Why? Because if something close to the truth ever starts coming out, about all the weird things that happend that day, the Bush Admin can just say "alright, you got us. We DID shoot down that flight, because we had to, but we didn't want people to know about it because it would have hurt American resolve (or something like that)." Boom, all criticism is deflected and the issue is dead once again.

What do you think?

[TruthIsAll]

131. Here is the 9/11 simulation...it really happened

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=836232

[Minstrel Boy]

49. the "drill" story surfaced only in September 2002

What evidence do we have that there was, in fact, a drill? It smells to me like an after-the-fact cover story.

No air response? It's the weirdest thing: that very moment, we were running a simulation...

Cheney in the WH situation room? Oh, you see, he was just monintoring the drill.

As you say, it's the perfect cover.

[CaptainClark23]

64. Vigilant Guardian

Was the name of the drill.

Had I time today, I'd post more. A simple google on the term ought to reveal enough soruces for evidence of its occurance.

[dpbrown]

76. The "drill" is the cover for LIHOP

If the scenario is as described above.

It covers both "lack" of reaction, and "over" reaction.

Considering Rice has used "no one knew" and "no one could have known" for almost everything else she's messed up on, this would tie in nicely to their decision not to act.

[OldSoldier]

84. When they drill, they don't use real-world players

We never fought the Soviets in any of the battles we played. We fought the Krasnovians.

You do this for a couple of reasons, key among them that if the real Soviets decided to roll across the Inter-German Border while a command post exercise was going on, you don't want people to think it's all part of the exercise play.

In this drill, they probably had World Wide Airlines Flight 1369 fly into the government building. This way, if someone came running into the room screaming, "United Airlines Flight 77 has been hijacked!" they would respond to it as a real-world incident and not just process it as exercise play.

Which points to one conclusion: no one came running into the room screaming that the plane had been hijacked, because they weren't allowed to.

[KG]

3. ok. for the air defense thing is secondary.

anyone here still think some guys with box cutters and a few hours on a simulator in FL took over those planes and navigated hundreds of miles to hit a rather small targets on the first pass?

uh-huh, a LHO hit all those shots in dallas, too. :eyes:

[JHB]

69. On a calm, crystal clear day?

It's not as hard as you think, KG-bro.

[thebigidea]

4. did you see that horrid DC 9/11: TIME OF CRISIS movie?

even in made4tv propaganda, the Flight 93 shootdown order sequence looks DAMN SUSPICIOUS. Cheney gives the order to bring it down, and we're to believe the silly morale-boosting explanation instead?

[mb7588a]

27. How does Cheney have the power to say such a thing?

[NewJeffCT]

33. remember

Remember who the real president is - * was reading books to kiddies while Cheney was running the show.

[AntiCoup2K4]

56. With Junior running like a scared coward around the country....

...Uncle Dick would be effectively "in control here", to use Alexander Haig's words. And, of course, under the circumstances, he probably would have just said "on the pResident's orders" and few would have questioned it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

6. That's all fine and good. But to what do you attirbute the fact that

after the first plane hit the first tower, the port authority was NOT notified that this was a terrorist attack, thereby leading to their fateful decision to put a staging area in the second tower while another plane was in the air? To what do you attribute the fact that the port authority was not notified thereby allowing the people in the second tower to return to their offices, thereby increasing the death toll by hundreds since many of these people already had evacuated and were returning to their offices?

I am fine if one can disprove LIHOP. Because if one disproves LIHOP, one PROVES extreme incompetence.

[Must_B_Free]

13. All just coincidences, dont you get it?

1. coincidence that the people in power had been, just a few years earlier, clamoring about the need for a galvinizing event like a modern Pearl Harbor, and got one.

2. coincidence that they were running a drill for the very scenario that Dr. Rice claimed "noone ever thought of"

3. coincidence that the real actual event happened at the same time as the drill.

4. coincidence that the impact to the pentagon happened to be in the one wing where noone worked.

5. coincidence that Bush and Cheney took unprecedented one month vacations right before the attack and still stayed away from DC after their vacations.

6. Coincidence that Ashcroft stopped flying commercial flights right before the hijackings

No - this is not power hungry men doing whatever it takes to get what they want (like all the rest of History), this is all simply a series of coincidences.

And if you believe that, you will believe anything.

I think my explanation is alot more simple and believable. Evil men did what they thought would increase their power. We have seen this throughout history - why does anything think things would have changed all of a sudden?

[lostnfound]

21. Because they're Americans, darn it!

and not only Americans, but great patriots!
:sarcasm off:

[AntiCoup2K4]

58. One slight correction to your otherwise great reply....

Cheney WAS in the White House when the attack happenned. As a matter of fact, he spent the previous night there. So did Poppy. And that seems to be the part of the story nobody has looked into. I suppose it's not that unusual for a former President to visit the White House, but when this one happens to be the father of the current pResident, who was out of town at the time, the timing is a little strange.

Makes you wonder what old George Sr and Uncle Dick were up late talking about, huh?

[alfredo]

112. Remember, Poppy Bush was meeting with Osama's brother

on 9-11.

[PissedOffPollyana]

66. Lest we forget...

7 - Usurper-in-Chief brother John E (aka JEB!) signing an executive order placing Florida in a state of emergency on Sept 7th, referring to the threat of terrorism. (Somebody get a chair for this man at the Psychic Friends Network!) BTW, Florida is still officially under martial law, in case anyone had any doubt after the FTAA protests.

[knowledgeispower]

100. I've heard this before

But how does it get over ANYONE'S head? It seems too prepostorous to be believed, although I admit that could be part of the design.

[JackSwift]

15. I've been in buildings next to buildings compromised

potentially by earthquakes and/or falling construction cranes, and you don't go back in the building for about 48 hours. Not only does the Fire Dept order you to do this, you have no inclination to go back in.

[Must_B_Free]

16. Unless its the WTC

then the Port authority announces to "go back to work"

[knowledgeispower]

99. Great point

It was either LIHOP, MIHOP, or extreme incompetence. The last option is the best for the Bush Admin, but it is still pretty damn bad and enough to get them booted out of office forever. Why don't we focus on that?

[On the Road]

7. I've Heard the Payne Stewart Plane Was

an hour and twenty minutes since it took off in eastern time and was intercepted in central time. This comes close to the right interval on Sep 11.

I still think there is some major explaining to do. Between the time the planes were known to be highjacked and the time the Pentagon plane hit, it's difficult to see why planes could not have at least taken off from the nearby bases like Bolling or Edwards.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

36. Flight 77 was a known rogue for quite a long while.

Even more interesting is that no jets are required to protect the Pentagon.
Especially the case being only one jet known to be incoming to their position.
They have their OWN defenses like the stuff seen around DC rignt after 9/11.
Stuff like Anti-aircraft batteries and other ordnace which would do the trick.

So a whole lot of talk about "slow to act fighter jets to protect the Pentagon" leads
discussion away from other types of reflective study of and thinking about what all
the details from that day actually add up to.

[Minstrel Boy]

50. If a ten minute walk takes me into another time zone,

have I been walking an hour and ten minutes?

[ramblin_dave]

55. No, that's not the problem

If you log your activities by stating that you begin your walk at 9:30 AM ET and end your walk at 9:40 CT, and someone reading your log doesn't notice the switch from ET to CT, then they might mistakenly say that your walk lasted 10 minutes. In reality it lasted 1 hour and 10 minutes.

The NTSB log of Payne Stewart's flight switches from ET to CT as the plane moves from the eastern time zone to the central time zone. The Payne Stewart story appears to have originated with Barrie Zwicker who must not have noticed the switch and concluded the intercept took only 21 minutes. The NTSB log actually shows 1 hour and 21 minutes.

[Blue_Roses]

72. I was living in Dallas when Payne Stewart's

plane went off course. I can remember the specifics of that day so clear (weather was windy and warm). I worked the Byron Nelson golf tournament a couple years before and Payne Stewart was there. He was very focused but always stopped to sign autographs and be kind to fans. I was devasted to hear this that day, so I stayed on this story.

The story is that Air Force planes were up in 20 minutes. I was glued to the televison and that's what we saw. We heard how there was ice on the windows BEFORE it ever crashed. They (AF) felt somewhat helpless on how to "combat" this "runaway" plane.

This question has been brought up many times by some of us who were watching this that day (Payne Stewart's plane crash) and the difference in time that it took the AF to get in the air on 9-11. Also, HOW could someone (the hijackers) navigate a plane (747) when they only "supposively" learned on a Microsoft aviator image? There is no way they could have kept that plane in the air that long. These guys were experienced pilots.

[knowledgeispower]

102. Keeping the plane in the air wouldn't be too hard

Landing and taking off are the hard parts, but the hijackers didn't have to do that. Supposedly this is why they were able to fly the plane despite the fact that they were novice pilots at best.

BUT, and this is a huge BUT, it WOULD be pretty hard to navigate a plane to descend and curve at the same time to smash into a building, which happened to some degree at both WTC impacts and to a much greater degree at the Pentagon site crash. The likelihood of a novice pilot pulling off one of those three stunts is pretty small, yet alone three novices pulling off all three perfectly.

[Blue_Roses]

111. even keeping the plane up for

the amount of time they did would be hard for a novice and like you said, the precision that they went into the buildings wasn't something a novice could do--3 times, no way.

This opens a whole new can of worms or maybe it doesn't!

[Old and In the Way]

119. Hans Hanjour was considered by his instructor to be a terrible

Cessna pilot.

So how does he take a 757 from cruising speed to a 270 degree turn, dropping 7000 feet, and put the plane into the Pentagon without crashing into the front lawn? Without stressing the airframe on a single attempt?

[proud patriot]

8. Yeah I think the fighters went up

Both my husband and I thought flight 93 over Penn. was
shot down the moment it was reported that it went down.

We expected it .

I must admit the Blumenthal interview , added much
to my knowledge of the Administration attitude
towards terrorism prior to 911 .

I'm still digesting much from today and will contemplate
and mull all this over .

The Movie "Aftermath"from GNN helped to understand and accept
at some level LIHOP .

[arcane1]

24. agreed, and I have proof:

After flight 93, the Bush Pr team gave us dramatic tv movies, harrowing transcripts of phone calls, tales of woe of the families and noble herosim of the passeners, and a whole new dictionary of catch-phrases and buzz-words to parrot while you dry your tears with the flag.

They ALWAYS pile the perfume on this heavy when they are serving us the most smelliest of their bullshit. Always.

[knowledgeispower]

105. Don't forget the bizarre Barbara Olsen connection

As far as I know, the only real "proof" we have that there were actually passengers on board the airplane that hit the pentagon was the testimony of Theodore Olson (a cabinet member in the admin.) that his WIFE, Barbara, called him on board the plane to tell him what was happening. That is pretty astounding, and could easily have been manufactured.

[knowledgeispower]

104. The key part is motive

Look at how much the Admin has benefitted from 9/11. It is really quite astounding. Without 9/11 they could not have pushed any of their radical agenda, and they even acknowledged that themselves both BEFORE (when PNAC said they needed "another Pearl Harbor") and AFTER 9/11. Combine that with all the fishy facts and explanations and it starts to look pretty bad pretty quick.

[maggrwaggr]

9. You end your post with "I think...."

so that's a theory just like all the others.

The trouble I have with the official story is that it's the least plausible of all the potential truths.

The official story stinks to high heaven. So those of us who have actually done our homework realize that Something Else is the truth.

What is it?

We don't know.

Yet we're called "conspiracy theorists" just because we don't swallow the official lies.

The fact of the matter is this: The Bush administration has lied, and lied repeatedly, about big things and little things. They've had absolutely no shame in lying in ways that have cost thousands of lives (Iraq) and billions of dollars (Iraq). They've also lied about little things (the British Airways jet).

So why should anyone believe they've told the truth about 9/11? The fact is that they lie.

Another fact: Bush is hiding a great deal of information about 9/11. What is it? Well it's a tautology to say that he's hiding the truth about 9/11.

And if it's the truth about 9/11, and he's hiding it, he would only hide it because it's damaging to him and would expose him as a liar.

Therefore the truth we need to expose LIHOP is right there, hidden by George Bush and friends.

This is all very logical. There's no "I think" in what I just wrote.

[cthrumatrix]

32. you are correct...this admin. stonewalls, lie and covers outside of 911

this is their MO...look at how/who they appointed the 911 commission

The most horrific crime in america...and they give $75 million over a year later and say solve it in 6 months ...but don't look at xxxxxx...or the 28 dedacted saudi pages...or you can't take notes when you choose 4 people to view the presidential daily briefing.

It all stinks is right.

[ljm2002]

48. $75 million?

Did they ever grant that much money to the commission? News to me. It started out at $3M and was later raised, but I don't think it ever reached $75M.

[skypilot]

59. No, I'm pretty sure...

...it only got up to 12 or 13 million. 75 million would be news to me also.

[sistersofmercy]

10. I think the fourth plane was shot down, no doubt about it!

Eyewitness accounts even suggest it was shot down. LIHOP, yep I don't think the bubbleheads knew exactly what they were dealing with but then again, who's to say they didn't? They seem to have no problem with sending our soldiers to a war they know is criminal. They don't care, it's just that simple. People are expendable. Their goals are what matter.

[Jazzgirl]

51. The fourth plane was shot down.

My brother knows the commander who gave the order to the crew that shot it down.

eom

[sistersofmercy]

78. If This Is True Than It's Extremely Important!

Because eventually the truth would be uncovered and if they lied about that it's a short stretch to get at the rest of the lies.

[HereSince1628]

90. Classic form of the urban myth

not me... (I'm an ordinary acquaintence)
but someone close to me (who is thus trustworthy cause you like me)
knows someone... (of course well outside our familiar experience)
who knew the ones (in the form of someone with special experience)
who did something. (that was truly extra-ordinary)

Sorry, not swallowing that one without a statment from the commander who gave the order, or the crew that did the shooting...

[Timefortruth]

97. Right, when they let it happen they didn’t know what

they were letting happen. That they didn’t foresee the magnitude of the disaster explains why it happened the way it did. A stop was put to it when the last plane was headed to TMI, a nuclear disaster would have been over the top so it was stopped.

But there is another lie. As far as I’m concerned they can say the passengers brought down the plane, even though it isn't true, it was good for morale at the time. But the joke that that jet was headed back to Washington flying so low and at such a high speed is, well, just so incredible that it also makes my head spin.

[cosmicaug]

11. WRONG!

The time usually quoted is around 10-12 minutes. I suppose it must have been revised upwards nowadays for greater believability. The original time quoted comes from a report which reported times based on different time zones (EDT & CDT). Unfortunately that time quoted overlooks this fact in the report and calculates the time interval as if it came from the same time zone.

See http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2000/AAB0001.htm

The relevant part to the timeline is reproduced below:

At 0927:10 EDT, N47BA called the Jacksonville ARTCC controller and stated that the flight was climbing through an altitude of FL 230. At 0927:13 EDT, the controller instructed N47BA to climb and maintain FL 390. At 0927:18 EDT, N47BA acknowledged the clearance by stating, "three nine zero bravo alpha." This was the last known radio transmission from the airplane.⁴ The sound of the cabin altitude aural warning⁵ was not heard on the ATC recording of this transmission.⁶

At 0933:38 EDT (6 minutes and 20 seconds after N47BA acknowledged the previous clearance), the controller instructed N47BA to change radio frequencies and contact another Jacksonville ARTCC controller. The controller received no response from N47BA. The controller called the flight five more times over the next 4 1/2 minutes but received no response.

About 0952 CDT,⁷ a USAF F-16 test pilot from the 40th Flight Test Squadron at Eglin Air Force Base (AFB), Florida, was vectored to within 8 nm of N47BA.⁸ About 0954 CDT, at a range of 2,000 feet from the accident airplane and an altitude of about 46,400 feet,⁹ the test pilot made two radio calls to N47BA but did not receive a response.

On edit: Added "Unfortunately that time quoted overlooks this fact in the report and calculates the time interval as if it came from the same time zone."

[Zero Gravitas]

63. armed?

Not only did it take one hour and 21 minutes, not 21 minutes, there is no indication that the F-16 was armed. I recall that they were prepared to shoot the plane down if they thought it might fall on a populated area (after all, those on bnoard were already dead) but that does not mean that the first plane to interecpt was armed.

[OldSoldier]

85. F-16s are always armed

Fighters always have live ammunition for their cannons on board; it's there because the plane's takeoff balance is dependent on it being there.

[Zero Gravitas]

123. they can't use inert ballast then?

I'm not necessarily dis-believeing what you say, but why not put an equivalent weight where the ammo goes?

[Bruce McAuley]

12. My father-in-law lives close to the crash site...

He reports his neighbor who lives up the hill from him, at the top of the ridge above his house said he got paper debris from the "crash" which was around 7 miles straightline from his property, and the winds weren't real strong that day. He agrees it might have been due to the airliner exploding in mid-air, although he didn't hear anything.
I think it was shot down, and some interviews of the people in the area might confirm that.

Bruce

[Jeebo]

14. What is LIHOP?

What is LIHOP?

[proud patriot]

17. It Stands For "Let It Happen On Purpose"

[JewelDigger]

18. LIHOP = Let It Happen on Purpose

further, MIHOP = Make It Happen On Purpose

[Punkingal]

19. LIHOP...

Let It Happen On Purpose.

[Festivito]

20. Wasn't there a snafu on time zone.

That the time they intercepted was given in Central time over the eventual crash in the Dakotas. That time was then compared to Eastern time so that an extra hour had elapsed plus the 21 minutes.

I tried to find it on DU, snopes my personal files, and google, but I failed and must now sleep.

Not to dismiss LIHOP. LIHOP works with someone embroiled in a conflict of interest without even using their conscious minds. Bush had conflicts in getting money for Caryle-dad-and-inheritance, appeasing PNACer-and-chicken-hawk-supporters, and distracting the media from reporting his right-wing agenda.

[cosmicaug]

23. N.T.S.B. reference.

Wasn't there a snafu on time zone.

Sure, see N.T.S.B. link I posted earlier for a timeline:
http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2000/AAB0001.htm

[Skittles]

22. thank you William

I was in the Air Force, dated a few pilots and ........ let's just say I will NEVER understand where the freaking Air Force was on that horrific day, and why the second tower and Pentagon were not evacuated. I WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND BECAUSE THERE IS NO RATIONAL EXPLANATION.

[GalleryGod]

115. Amen,Skittles! SOP was Totally Ignored or OBSTRUCTED

They thought" Oh, Shoot...we'll lose 200 people".

LIHOP will make the Kennedy Assassination look like an episode of Leave It To Beaver, in years to come:wtf:

[Blue_Roses]

118. Didn't they tell

the people in the second tower they were okay and they could stay there? Seems I remember hearing a widow say her husband called her and said the 1st tower was on fire, but they were told to stay put...did I hear this right?

All I know, is no one would have to tell me twice to get out if I looked out my window and saw a building next to mine billowing with fire.

It's just so sad.

[Stephanie]

130. They did, but you have to remember the burning debris

was falling onto the plaza below. Without knowledge that the second plane was en route, it made sense for the WTC management to keep the people inside the building. Many people were killed on the plaza by not only flaming chunks of plane and building falling on them, but also the bodies of people who jumped from the burning floors above. It was rational to keep people inside when they were not aware of the second plane coming.

[Old and In the Way]

25. Didn't you hear?

The radar was pointing the wrong way....

But how to explain the 3rd plane hitting the Pentagon 52+ minutes after the 2nd plane went into the WTC?

Sorry, but incompetence don't wash on a military org that has a $300 Billion+ annual budget.

Now maybe the military did have planes up around Washington and no one could make a decision on what to do. If so, do we really want these idiots running the show?

What will the threshold be for doing a real public investigation? DO 25,000 have to die? 100,000? 1MM? Obviously 2500 Americans dying don't meet the threshold.

[drfemoe]

26. What I would like to know

... is why are people getting away with blocking complete investigations?
Whether is was lihop, a miserable failure, or something worse doesn't matter as long as the cover efforts continue.
It matters that certain individuals are blocking access to information that would answer huge lingering doubts.

Something went terribly wrong, and instead of taking responsibility, the man in charge has become a victim of a tragedy from which he reaps great benefit. It at least amounts to magnificent incompetence Somewhere.

The archives at DU are a goldmine.
9/10/2001
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=4240&forum=DCForumID35&archive=yes
9/11/2001
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=4283&forum=DCForumID35&archive=yes
...

From a research piece done by cbc ..

A journalist who's written extensively about the misdeeds of U.S. intelligence, even he {David Corn, The Nation} says it's simply too great a leap to believe that the White House could conspire to destroy the World Trade Center and fire a missile at the Pentagon and then keep it all quiet. {mihop theories}
...
The fifth estate found NO credible evidence in the public domain to prove the U.S. government had any specific advance knowledge of exactly what would happen on September 11, 2001.
...
But many of these theories are based, at least in part, on legitimate questions that have remained unanswered since September 11th.

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/conspiracytheories/speculation.html
bolding added

[Q]

29. Many journalists also claim that Bush* won the 2000 election...

...'fair and square'. Others insist that it was simply a 'close race' that HAD to be decided by the Supreme Court.

- Reality is whatever the American Media says it is. We're left to accept or reject it...but either way there's nothing WE can do about it.

- Was 9-11 allowed to happen (as per PNAC) or was it incompetence? Both scenarios demand investigations, hearings and accountability. That the Bush* administration has obstructed any real investigation is the biggest red flag of all.

[cthrumatrix]

34. funny...4 newspapers were to report a "Gore Victory" on Sept 22-25th...

but that all changed with 911.

The wall street journal, Miami Hearald , NYT & LA Times...did an extensive "recount"...and yes Gore won.

The muffled story results actually did run on 11/11/01...however that plane crash over NY in a neighborhood happened that same day. The accident where they said the "tail fell off"...while witensses said other.

So there you have your "fifth estate"...

[bpilgrim]

28. they may have been up but why did they stand down?

the theory that they were confused since a scheduled drill of the same senario was also taking place at the same time is about the best i've heard so far BUT it hasn't been officially explained yet and they are still stalling, norad that is and are now being takin to court to release docs.

my fear is that when we finally do get them box into a corner they will execute their plan for a military take over of the country.

and for those too naive to believe it could happen just look back at history, recent history... it happened in japan and germany two liberal democracies at the time for starters...

i have been harping on S.O.P. from day one and i wont stop until i get answers... and my numbers grow daily and we are legions.

thanks will for all you have done to keep this issue at the fore AND to add ligetimacy to those of us who have questions. :toast:

peace

[DoYouEverWonder]

30. The men in charge were neither scared nor confused

that morning. Each one reacted the same unnatural way. Most humans when they heard the news stopped what they were doing in horror. Most people ran to the TV or the radio to find out what was going on, if not when they heard about the first tower, certainly by the time they heard about the second tower.

Now compare that to how the key people in this misadministration reacted. Also, keep in mind that these key people probably had access to much more detailed information then the rest of us. For example, none of us had an clue when the first tower was hit that there were other hijacked planes in the air. At least one or two of the key people in this story would have been notified of this little tibit, you would think?

Ok, first we have Bu$h's reaction. When he arrived at Booker Elementary he acknowleged that he knew the first tower had been hit and would make a statement about it later. Then he went on with his regular schedule. Then he is notified that the second tower is hit, what does he do? He doesn't anything. He doesn't do anything except to continue with his photo op and then go to get ready to make his statement. For over 30 minutes after he was informed about the second tower, Bu$h continued to react in the most inappropriate way for a CIC to react.

Second, Rumsfled is in a secure bunker in the Pentagon meeting with Wolfowitz and others. Victoria Clark interupts their meeting to tell them about the first tower being hit. How did they react? Again, they didn't. Rumsfeld & Co. continue on with there scheduled meeting and didn't react at all until the Pentagon was hit.

Third, General Myers was about to meet with Max Cleland before his Senate confirmation hearing to become Chief of Staff. While he is waiting in Cleland's outer office which happened to have a TV that was on, he sees the report about the first tower being hit. So what does he do? He goes into Cleland office for the scheduled meeting and no one even interupts them to tell them about the second tower or even the Pentagon. When Myers comes out of the meeting he is told the Pentagon has been hit and only then does he go into battle mode and heads back to his battle station at the Pentagon.

Also, during Myers Senate confirmation testimony he admitted that there were fighter planes already in the air along the east coast that morning and not just the ones that were part of the exercise. Apparently, since it was a beautiful clear fall morning, a perfect day to fly, there were a number of military jets up in that air doing routine practice runs.

So can someone explain to me how these men, who would have been privy to a lot more information than any of us, that al Qaeda was planning a big attack and that it would probably involve hijacked airplanes, all decided to sit on their hands and not react until after the Pentagon was hit? Or how could they not react in horror when they heard and saw the images of the first tower? Only people who knew what was going down and wanted it to go down could react in such an inhuman way.

[ljm2002]

47. Important questions!

This would be a good way to get at some of the truth all right -- ask these people, all of them, to account for themselves on that day. Because while lots has been covered up, and there is lots we can't know, we do know how they reacted that morning and there is no rational explanation how all of our highest political and military commanders to a man reacted poorly or not at all. Apart from the fact that their reactions were inhuman (I fully agree with you there, that's what struck me about the Booker school video, how could he have just *sat there*???), they were also very clear cases of dereliction of duty. If only the right people could question them in detail on these points. Ask them what they thought when they were first told what was happening. Ask them if they knew that any other airplanes had been hijacked that morning. And if they say no, ask them how is that possible that the chain of command was not informed that our country was under attack? etc...

[skypilot]

62. Another thing.

Both Bush and Myers have claimed that they thought the first WTC crash involved a small single engine plane or something of that sort. However, they also both say that they were watching TV footage of the aftermath of the crash. We've all seen that footage. They was a HUGE hole in the tower with fire and smoke pouring out of it. Did it not occur to ANYONE that if it had been a small plane it could have very well been a small plane loaded with explosives? The size of the plane is hardly what mattered. Judging from the damage to the building one would easily surmise that there had been mass casualties. Yet these guys went on with the day as though it was no big deal because they supposedly thought the crash involve a small plane. Bullshit.

[Timefortruth]

93. Not to mention that they knew there was at least one hijacked

plane flying around somewhere. We are expected to believe that none of these men put 1+1 together and thought, "Maybe that hijacked plane has something to do with that crash into the WTC?" It makes your head spin when all the facts are put together that we are expected to believe that they just were simply idiotic and incompetent. The Chimp is that stupid, but all of them are that stupid? Well, it's just impossible.

[skypilot]

106. "..but all of them are that stupid?"

Exactly. You'd think cell phones would be ringing off the hook all over the place. Where was George Tenet? According to Bob Woodward, in his "10 Days in September" piece for the Washington Post, Tenet was obsessed with the possibility that an attack was coming, especially with all the "chatter" going on in the intelligence community. It was Tenet, in fact, who gave Bush that Aug.6th briefing, the title of which ("Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S.") should have, on 9/11, sprung to the mind of anyone and everyone who was privy to that briefing. Did Tenet get on the phone and start screaming that this is what he was afraid of? Who'd he call first? Did he call anyone? It boggles the mind to think that after the first WTC bombing in 1993 AND after the Oklahoma city bombing of a federal building that the folks in charge would just take the news of a plane crash at the WTC in stride and continue with their meetings, photo-ops, etc. NO red flags went up until an additional crash had occured??? I don't buy it.

[HereSince1628]

92. I was one of the few...I was teaching and did so for 2 more hours...

my students and I were in a "bubble" of ignorance until the lab ended.

[DoYouEverWonder]

103. But you're not the Commander in Chief

of the US Armed Forces. You are not the one who is suppose to take charge when your country comes under attack.

Bu$h, Rumsfeld and Myers are the ones who were in charge of things that day. They are the ones who get daily intelligence briefings. They are the ones who knew that al Qaeda was planning to hijack airplanes and fly them into buildings (google Project Bojinka). They are the trained professionals who are expected to react immediately to any major disaster, which the WTC clearly was.

As for the rest of us, millions of people were going on about their business with no clue what was going on, on the east coast. However, I am sure that when you found out, you reacted appropriately.



Bu$h reacting to the news that the 2nd tower had been hit:



Normal people reacting:

[Old and In the Way]

120. Here's a theory for ya

93 was delayed 20 minutes on the Tarmac in Newark(?). Had it been on-time, it would have happened much closer to the time 175 and 11 hit the WTC in NYC.

It appears that 77 was meandering around West Virginnia waiting for 93 to show up to do their attack on Washington.

Perhaps this little delay botched up the whole script for the day?

"I saw the 1st plane on TV hit the WTC, I thought that was one terrible pilot", GW Bush 9/11/01.

[DoYouEverWonder]

125. So that is why they all had to sit on their hands?

And act like idiots for half an hour?

If things had gone has planned everything would have happened at about the same time and they would of gone into high gear and looked like heros. Nobody whould have questioned their reactions, because they would have been able to react appropriately.

Instead, they all had to stall in order to let the thing play out? Then maybe there is a god, because this half hour delay gives us the evidence that we need to prove that if this wasn't a MIHOP, it certainly was a LIHOP.

[bloom]

126. The only person I know who did not act as one would expect

has been diagnosed as psychotic. She had no emotional response.

[cthrumatrix]

31. Until Ms. Mariani's RICO suit is addressed and the myriad of questions

Such as:

* no black box recorders, or tower tapes from anywhere...no ability for conversations with anybody from the towers

* No explanation for the "quick ID" hours after the event when "they had no idea of such a trajedy could be planned. If they used fake ID's...how did they get on the plane...but not on the passenger list?

etc...

You also have to look at the admins. refusal to cooperate in any way to address these questions. There is more than one question..there is more than 10 questions...and when you have these "stonewalled" you will always have a "LIHOP/MIHOP" out there.

[durutti]

35. This has been debunked.

http://mckinneysucks.blogspot.com/2002_06_01_mckinneysucks_archive.html#78095719

As repugnant as I find some of the author's political views, he does use (for the most part) solid facts to refute LIHOP.

[Q]

37. More links to 'mckinneysucks'?

- Solid facts? I'm becoming suspicious of your callous disregard for the search for the truth. NO ONE has any solid facts concerning 9-11...and that's just the way the Bushies want it.

- What you're offering is just another form of 'move on' and 'get over it'. Well...we're not going to move on until there's a full investigation into 9-11 and prosecution for those responsible.

[durutti]

40. I agree that there should be a full investigation.

BUT the fact is that many proponents of LIHOP continue to parrot theories that have little basis in fact.

[bpilgrim]

41. well can you explain wtc7?

http://globalfreepress.net/911/wt7/flash_8fps/wtc7.8fps.swf

or S.O.P.

or why they didn't warn anyone after all the warnings they recieved?

or why he didn't react or the SS on that day

our behavior since

PNAC

or debunk any of the questions that have been raised?

peace

[durutti]

71. I'm no physicist.

I'm not an architect or a physicist. I suspect you aren't either. I have no reason to doubt the official explanation. Find me one credible professional who doubts it.

or S.O.P.

What's S.O.P.?

or why they didn't warn anyone after all the warnings they recieved?

All of them are covered on that Web site.

our behavior since

If by "our" behavior, you mean the behavior of the U.S. governmen, then the answer is simple. Governments routinely exploit tragedy to further their political agendas. 9/11 was no exception.

PNAC

What about it?

or debunk any of the questions that have been raised?

When a question that has any basis in fact is raised, I'll address it.

[Timefortruth]

91. Please explain why when even Condi admits

that they had notice of an increased threat of “traditional” hijackings no precautions were taken to prepare the military? We know the administration took the threats seriously because Ashcroft stopped flying commercial airlines due to a threat which he has still failed to specify, other than to say it was personal in nature. A claim that Ashcroft made well after 9/11 and that supposes that Attorney General Reno didn’t have threats levied against her (please, give me a break!).

You pretend not to buy any aspect of LIHOP but won’t address even the most obvious and clearly documented facts which are settled, not speculation.

[durutti]

96. Source?

n/t

[Timefortruth]

107. Here is a start for you

Now, on August 6th, the President received a presidential daily briefing which was not a warning briefing, but an analytic report. This analytic report, which did not have warning information in it of the kind that said, they are talking about an attack against so forth or so on, it was an analytic report that talked about UBL's methods of operation, talked about what he had done historically, in 1997, in 1998. It mentioned hijacking, but hijacking in the traditional sense, and in a sense, said that the most important and most likely thing was that they would take over an airliner, holding passengers and demand the release of one of their operatives. And the blind sheikh was mentioned by name as -- even though he's not an operative of al Qaeda, but as somebody who might be bargained in this way.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/05/20020516-13.html

The White House confirms that President Bush was warned during an intelligence briefing last summer, that Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network might try to hijack a U.S. airliner. Spokesman Ari Fleischer says the information was vague and there was no indication that jets would be deliberately crashed. He says the White House took appropriate steps in response to that warning and others that surfaced last summer.

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0205/16/ip.00.html

In response to inquiries from CBS News over why Ashcroft was traveling exclusively by leased jet aircraft instead of commercial airlines, the Justice Department cited what it called a "threat assessment" by the FBI, and said Ashcroft has been advised to travel only by private jet for the remainder of his term.

"There was a threat assessment and there are guidelines. He is acting under the guidelines," an FBI spokesman said. Neither the FBI nor the Justice Department, however, would identify what the threat was, when it was detected or who made it.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/26/national/main303601.shtml

But I'm under the impression that the only thing that would cause you to have any questions about the official version is a confession, which will never happen.

[JHB]

74. What's to explain about 7 WTC?

[bobbyboucher]

73. Just linking to that vile crap

is suspect. Don't you see the problem with claiming that someones criticism or timeline or theories are flase based upon "lack of evidience" is really quite absurd when the people hiding the evidence are the same people who are suspect?

Dude, there's a million unanswered question and the answers are being buried. America deserves the truth. All of it, regardless of how ugly. Your lame attemp to aid the cover-up makes you complicit.

Your existence here is suspect at best.

[durutti]

95. What a joke.

It's "vile crap" because it conflicts with your own deeply-held beliefs?

I'm a leftist. I'm further left than most DUers. Why am I a leftist?

Because conservatism is based on blindly accepting tradition, whereas leftism is based on critically evaluating the world.

I actually like Cynthia McKinney, and I think that the author's personal views are repugnant. But he presents pertinent facts.

If it's not good enough to argue against LIHOP based on a lack of evidence, then it's not good enough to argue against *anything* based on lack of evidence. We should just believe in whatever sounds good.

People do deserve to know the truth. And I'm sure officials aren't telling the entire truth -- what officials ever do? But that does *not* mean that we should jump to assume LIHOP. It means that we should evaluate what evidence is available, and go from there. And the evidence just doesn't point to LIHOP.

Could it be that the Bush gang let it happen on purpose? Yes. Is it likely? No.

What's wrong with LIHOP? A few things. First it assumes that the powers that be are infallible, and can't make mistakes. Nothing is accidental. 9/11 couldn't have been the result of mistakes.

Why then, was shoebomber Richard Reid able to board a plane? Why were reporters at airports able to get weapons past checkpoints?

Why would top Pentagon officials allow planes to hit the Pentagon?

How would the responsible officials be sure their conspiracy was kept secret?

And don't you think it's funny how the people supposedly uncovering the truth behind 9/11 are the same people who are uncovering umpteen other conspiracies? Michael Ruppert has made a business out of this stuff.

The fact is that there is no credible evidence for LIHOP. I challenge you or anyone else to present it to me. I've come to this conclusion after attempting to listen to both sides of the story.

Now, some so-called "conspiracy theories" are true. The CIA *was* complicit in the drug trade. The October Surprise probably *did* happen. But there's ample evidence for both of these "conspiracies". That's not the case with LIHOP.

What's wrong with conspiracy theorizing? A few things. Here, I'm borrowing from a Z Magazine article...

1. It leads to alliances with right-wing nuts.

2. Conspiracy theorizing leads to glorification of people who leftists shouldn't glorify. JFK is a prime example.

3. Conspiracy theory cause leftists not to be taken seriously.

4. This is the really important one. Conspiracy theories lead us to counterproductive and wrong priorities. As noted in the article (by Michael Albert and Stephen Shalom, BTW), "There are many pressing issues for U.S. Leftists today -- preventing war in Iraq, restraining Israeli aggression, fighting the assault on civil liberties, exposing the phony U.S.-Russian nuclear arms deal, and so on. Unfortunately too many Leftists have gotten wrapped up in supporting the Democratic-party-led campaign to investigate what Bush knew and when. Just in the past few weeks, how much energy from people well on the Left has gone to the Bush question, with no credible gains, and away from directions where our energies are sorely needed? Leftists have gone from planning teach-ins on the Mideast to planning gatherings to talk about the detailed claims of who knew what when. (In fact, if we were to apply the "who benefits?" principle, we might ask whether conspiracy theorizing itself is a plot by the CIA to distract us all from the struggle against globalization? Imagine debating that conspiracy theory, hour after hour, and then debating about debating about....)"

[zauberflote]

110. Thanks durutti

Reading this thread of relentless paranoia has been completely disheartening. Bush won't be beat with this kind of nonsense. No one will feel the need to take us seriously.
Comment after absurd comment goes by without anyone saying "now hold on a minute."
Until now.
Your eminently sober and thoughtful comments bring back a voice of reason to this forum and offers hope anew.
Thanks.
:toast:

[Timefortruth]

117. Now wait a minute.

You say whatever the government says happedned must be what happened. Well just answer this, since they had notice that there would be hijackings why weren't they at all prepared?

If you believe their own words, that they knew to expect something, why did they do nothing, nothing at all, with those warnings?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/26/national/main303601.shtml
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0205/16/ip.00.html
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/05/20020516-13.html

Read what was said and answer that question.

[zauberflote]

122. You see conspiracies

I see an administration with its own agenda and its head up its collective butt contemplating the view.
You give these people superhuman abilities to foresee exactly what will happen, as if life is some kind of chess game and the administration is some super high tech computer that can see a thousand moves ahead and is only playing itself.
They're just people. Nobody is that smart, certainly not these guys, and even if they were, nobody could coordinate such a massive LIHOP conspiracy without many many things falling apart or someone giving it away.
You think Bush is smart enough to keep this going? He couldn't even keep that phony turkey a secret.
It boggles my mind people are falling for this nonsense.
Bad things happen. Get used to it. To create conspiracies is just a way to try to gain control over the uncontrollable.

[Timefortruth]

127. You don’t address my question.

Since they agree that hijackings were expected why didn’t they take some precautionary measures? We all agree that they are incompetent, the management of the government and foreign affairs since 9/11 demonstrates that, but even a second grader could make the connection once the attack started.

Just where do I give anyone superhuman abilities? They didn't stop an attack, there is nothing superhuman there, cowardly yes.

It doesn’t have to be much a conspiracy for them to have let it happen on purpose. Very few would have known why the information was ignored, the people who few knew aren't going to talk about it.

Your position assumes that everyone who failed to act was a particpant in the malfeasence, I would argue that fewer than 5 people prevented the defense from the hijackers. Five people with everything to loose, including their freedom can certainly keep a secret.

There wasn’t any reason to stop the attack, so they didn’t try an attack could only be good for them, so they let it go.

Please answer my question.

[zauberflote]

129. OK

You asked me to read the articles. I did. They're widely known now. First of all, none of them says a hijacking was expected, just that it might happen.
The Bushies get a lot of intelligence information. Does it mean this particular one they listened to above all others and fashioned some passive but inordinately complex diabolical plot to kill lots of innocent Americans so they could go to war?
I don't think they're that clever, or even that vile and I detest these guys. Look, I'll take it at face value the administration is lying about a lot that has to do with 9/11 so nothing they say can be trusted.
But you go from a tiny bit of information into a full blown conspiracy theory of the most evil nature, without accumulating any real evidence. This would be thrown of court in a heartbeat.
If the real truth ever does come out, I imagine it will be very unflattering to Bush. It's also likely to be a little more mundane than what some of the more vivid imaginations on this board would like to see.

[Old and In the Way]

124. For the record, I see absolutely nothing in your post that

supports "the official story". But your whole thesis that getting wrapped up in "conspiracy theories" take away our focus in kinda BS.

2500 Americans died on 9/11 and this administration is stonewalling the investigation. Why? Maybe because they are complicit in letting it happen or through sheer stupidity, doesn't matter. But now let's add the War in Iraq which was based on linking Iraq to 9/11....why? The oil? The Republican business contracts?

At what point is treason committed? How many Americans have to die before we are allowed to have an open, bi-partisan investigation? 25,000? 250,000? 2.5MM?

If this administration was truly a victim of AQ terror, why weren't they leading the charge to find out what the hell happened? Because they knew it was going down (perhaps not the final outcome) and they wanted it to happen so they could get their political/financial agenda underway.

It's treason durutti...and if you were a true Leftist, you'd be demanding that justice be served for the 2500 innocent Americans who were slaughtered on that day.

Because if we don't investigate and understand the root cause of what happened that day, we are still exposed to the same conditions that will allow another "event" to happen again here.

It's not a Left/Right/Democrat/Republican issue....it's a friggen' criminal issue perpetrated against the American people. Those in charge of this government on 9/11 are suspects, they shouldn't be deciding who gets to ask the questions.

[dbt]

38. And here's another tidbit to put into the mix:

Why were Poppy Bush and Bar spending the night of September 10 at the White House?

:freak:
dbt

[DoYouEverWonder]

39. Especially since W wasn't home?

It is very unusual for W not to go back to the WH or Crawford at the end of the day, no matter where he is in the country. On 9-10, W arrived in Florida to read to children at a school in Jacksonville. Then he spent the night at a resort on the Gulf Coast. On the morning of 9-11 W, Jeb, Brogan (Lt Gov at the time), and even Karl Rove (who rarely travels with the pResident) were all in attendance for a photo op at an elementary school? While Bu$h Sr and Babs are at the WH. Just another one of those little oddities?

[0007]

42. "The fighters were up that day, I think."

I wish you would have had something in your post Will about a few things we did know.

Something our administration and media refuses to talk about. Why was the bin Laden families given special escort on aircraft out of the country, when all other flights were cancelled, while the towers were still smoking? Where was James A. Baker III? This may be the answer to many questions concerning 911.

[Jacobin]

43. Something to consider

Re: Engine falling off plane.

Keep in mind that there are two scenarios for the engine falling miles from the rest of the plane. You described the first, i.e., plane was hit with a missile and began to fall apart in the air from that strike.

Second is that if the passengers and hijackers struggled for control of the plane and the plane's erratic movements exceeded g-limits for the engine pylons, one or more of the engines could have come loose away from the crash site. The engine mounts are designed to break loose before the wing does from over g-limit movements.

I don't know what happened, but think its important to consider all the possibilities when theorizing about this.

BTW, I think your theory, or something very much like it, may be what happened.

[Robb]

45. Will, I promise you

...no one is deeper into Flight 93 than me. But there's a big problem.

No one has been able to confirm the heavy debris (e.g. engine) 8 miles from the crash site. It probably didn't happen; I say this because people I trust have been on the ground looking for over a year. In fact, even the paper debris wasn't found that far away; it's a matter of plotting out actual points on a map, talking with witnesses, etc.

A lot of sloppiness with most Flight 93 "investigators" has led to a lot of hype on debris issues. The most egregious took place when someone said "Debris was reported at Indian Lake". Looking at a map, sure, the lake's center (it's long and skinny) is about 8 miles from 93's impact point. But the actual report (of paper debris, I should add) came from a man who worked at the Indian Lake Marina -- and if you don't go there, you don't know the marina is on the southernmost end of the lake, a respectable (but less interesting) 2.5 miles from the impact point. Far away still, but arguably well within precedent for lightweight debris being ejected from impact points. PM me if you really want a good map, with debris reports plotted.

The trouble with these sorts of "facts" being repeated over and over is that the real discrepencies -- like the missing three minutes in the flight recorder, or the suspiciously textbook-accurate reported response times for NORAD's interceptors -- get overlooked.

Just my $0.02, but I think it's pretty informed for two pennies.

[Timefortruth]

108. There is no way to know for sure, but do you think 93 was

headed toward TMI?

[Solomon]

46. Will you almost hit my theory right on the nose.

The only difference between yours and mine is that I believe someone on the inside knew what was going to happen and kind of doublecrossed the other participants in the plot.

I think the conspirators were told that a series of "regular" hijackings would occur. That the hijackers would not be armed (only boxcutters), that they would recover the planes and passengers with only a few deaths. They would be big heroes.

I don't think the "hijackers" knew either that the planes would be crashed into buildings. How easy would it be for intelligence to recruit a group of men and tell them where to be or go at a certain time?

The thing that makes me the angriest of all, is the people who spout the "incompetence/asleep at the switch" bullshit. My brain locks when I hear that. How can people be so damn naive? Damn I hate that.

Now people are seizing on the "drill" thing as though that's some kind of cover. The only perspective that most people have about drills is the elementary school fire drills. Yeah we slowed down getting out because we knew that it was just a drill. The fucking military is NOT supposed to slow down whether they know it's a drill or not. It's the whole purpose of doing the drill is it not?

And by the way, I'd like to see the stats on that "drill"? In other words, let us see how long it took them to scramble planes during the drill, what the lines of communication are during the drill, etc.

[DemExpat]

52. This version of LIHOP....is the one I can believe....

that they knew something was up, but when it happened, they were overwhelmed by the scale.....freaked out....and screwed up.

I mean...one tower, and 3 other planes heading for targets.....those planes could have been shot down and STILL the effect of the terrorism would have been just as great...

:shrug:

DemEx

[Solomon]

53. No No. Gotta disagree with you on this one.

Nothing, and I mean nothing, is more dramatic than watching those towers fall down my friend. That image is seared on the american soul. That image is so overwhelming that they need not show you anything else, like for example, what hit the pentagon.

[rman]

67. except that it's not "On Purpose"

but rather because of hesitation. Supposedly. Which also precludes "Let It Happen".
It's more along the lines of coincidence or incompetence then LIHOP.

[TNOE]

87. No, Just Can't Go Along with that Theory

here are some good websites I've just recently been compiling. A former DU'er on this board who was very involved with the 9/11 thing told me of his friend who was one of the pilots at Andrews Air Force base that day - who was sitting in his F-16 ready to go... begging to go - was told to stand down. That pilot mentioned it to his family and friends - and then denied all. Immediately sent to Afghanistan and has not been seen since. I feel he was not the only one.

The other thing that doesn't get much attention - and it would take me too long to find my old notes - but the fact that the WTCenters were recently sold in July of 2001, they carried billions of dollars of insurance "due to terrorism" and there was evidence of two huge pending cases relating to the manipulation of gold prices by JP MOrgan, et al. The WTC was MEANT to be destroyed in the process. There had been a study where it was going to take $11-22 million to address the abestos problem - it all fits in my opinion. But it takes a lot of time to put all the pieces together - but when you do - it becomes obvious. They knew.


http://www.pi911.com/

http://www.septembereleventh.org/

http://www.msnbc.com/news/907379.asp?0cv=KA01

http://www.communitycurrency.org/MainIndexMX.html

http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/towers/

http://www.911truth.org/

http://www.mycountryrightorwrong.net/NORAD911StandDownMath.htm

http://www.investigate911.com/itsbushstupid.htm

http://www.osamaskidneys.com/links.html#TOP

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0208/S00068.htm

http://www.mycountryrightorwrong.net/mcrow2.htm

http://www.loompanics.com/Articles/September11.html

http://physics911.org/net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=19


http://members.aol.com/mpwright9/sting.html

[randr]

54. Stand-by alert

Somewhere I remember reading that on 9/11 the east coast air alert system was on a high alert practice run, or somesuch term, that would have had all personel on station.
We all know what GW's response was. If there was a delay in communication or command, we were all witnessing it as it ocurred in a small classroom in Florida.
Deer in the headlights?

[TomNickell]

57. Where's the Conspiracy?

I don't see much here that isn't already well-documented.

The admin -did- know that something big was coming; their response was lethargic and inadequate. But the motives for this are almost impossible to prove. The serious questions for investigations are whether there was information that -should- have resulted in a public alarm and whether there were actions they -could- have taken which -might- have stopped the attacks.

The order to shoot down civilian airliners would have been difficult under any circumstances. There were no -good- options. Again the motives are nearly impossible to prove. Your analysis effectively punctures the usual LIHOP 'evidence'--'THE PLANES WEREN'T SCRAMBLED!!!!-- and then they secretly shot down the Pennsylvania plane!!!!!!'

It's conceivable the plane was shot down over Pennsylvania. But then you have to explain how the military could keep this event a secret for such a long time. There must be numerous radar records; pilots and their controllers would be aware; accountants would notice the loss of an expensive missile; crash investigators would have figured it out.

Anti-aircraft missiles use small explosives that are designed to wreck an engine, not to blow it off the airplane. Aerodynamic forces could also account for pieces falling off the plane. (Though clearly this requires explanation.)

[bobbyboucher]

75. Couldn't one of the planes theat "just missed"

in New York have flown down to DC to protect the capitol? How many fighters does it take to shoot down a commercial jetliner? How long does it take to fly an F-15 from New York to DC? Not 45 minutes.

You see, there was plenty of time and ability to protect at least the Pentagon, but I fear it is far more sordid than that.

Nothing has been sufficiently explained. The ENTIRE explanation is supect. It has been one big lie after another, then an anthrax attack to shut down the Capitol to buy time for the cover-up.

[hang a left]

79. Put this in your pipe and smoke it for a minute.

The head of security for the FAA was Michael Canavan, who is a retired US Army lieutenant general, on 9-11. Canavan was Commanding General, Special Operations Command, Europe, and Commanding General, Joint Special Operations Command, at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. Canavan resigned shortly after 9-11 after only working there for 10 months.

I am convinced MIHOP

One of the many problems as I see it, is for one, according to air traffic controllers they lost contact with flight 11 at 8:13 AM, yet NORAD is not contacted by the FAA until 8:40 AM. The FAA will not answer the question of what time the controller contacted the FAA. The air traffic controllers won't answer the question as to what time the FAA was contacted.

The FAA regulations instruct air traffic controllers that if there is an unexpected loss of radar or radio communication they must consider that "an aircraft emergercy exists"...and..."If...you are in doubt that a situation constitutes an emergency or potential emergency, handle it as though it were an emergency."

[ramblin_dave]

60. Beware the Payne Stewart story

The Payne Stewart story appears to have originated with Barrie Zwicker. It appears that he did not notice that the NTSB log entries for the Stewart flight switch from eastern time to central time as the plane moved across the time zones. Taking this change into account yields 1 hour and 21 minutes as the time needed to intercept.

Even so, the NTSB account doesn't add up to me. You have to believe that, after ATC lost contact, over an hour went by before taking any action. So is the NTSB log simple incomplete? I've read claims that ATC asked other commercial flights if they could see the plane, but if that happened, it's not in the NTSB account. Secondly if you calculate where the plane should have been one hour and 21 minutes after contact was lost near Gainesville, FL you end up with it being over north Alabama or even Tennessee. Yet the interceptor is described as a test pilot already in the air out of Eglin AFB in the FL panhandle.

So I'm saying I don't think the NTSB account as written adds up. Either there are missing details or the some log times are wrong. At any rate, using the Payne Stewart flight as an example of how the system worked will leave you open to ridicule by those who say it was really one hour and 21 minutes to intercept the plane.

[sybylla]

70. Regardless, Stewart's trouble happened in the middle of nowhere

It is likely it would take longer to intercept. But over the populous east coast? with air bases near DC and other places? I won't believe it.

I have a pilot friend from Europe who has told me of a trip he made in a private jet to the US between 10-15 years ago. He flew across the country and on the leg of the journey that took him to LA, his radio went out. He had an escort within MINUTES of his failure to respond to the tower. I have heard him tell this story several times before and after 911. This was a system that was in place effectively over a decade before 911. He believes there is something fishy about four large planes, off course for long periods of time, directed at population centers on the east coast, but never getting an escort from NORAD.

Whether it was incompetence or LIHOP that no escort was sent, it is obvious that something went wrong. That is a fact that cannot be denied and someone should be held responsible for it.

[Blue_Roses]

77. The AF planes were up in 20 minutes

I was living in Dallas at the time and I was watching from almost the moment it went above altitude. It was a non-stop play on our news. We couldn't watch anything else and the F-16's were up fast. This is why it has been debated so long as to why it took them so long to get in the air on 9-11. I watched that too--glued you might say to the tube on 9-11--and I didn't see near the reaction time from the AF as I did the day Payne Stewart's plane went on a "runaway track."

Nevertheless, both were extremely sad days.

[ramblin_dave]

80. So how do you explain the NTSB report?

The NTSB report:

http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2000/AAB0001.htm#P66_7141

It says:

Last contact at 9:27 EDT
No response to call at 9:33 EDT
Continued calling for 4.5 minutes after that
F-16 "vectored" to within 8 nm at 9:52 CDT (10:52 EDT)
F-16 pilot begins visual inspection at 10:00 CDT (11:00 EDT)

So the NTSB report has a gap in reported events between 9:37.5 EDT (9:33 + 4.5 min) to 10:52 EDT, a span of about an hour and 5 min. What happened in the few minutes after 9:37 EDT? When exactly was the pilot asked to respond?

As for your recollections, when exactly did news media pick up on this story? Do you remember where the plane was reported to be when the news first broke?

[Blue_Roses]

114. I can't speak for the NTSB

but I can speak for when it was picked up by WFAA in Dallas...I was watching and it broke in and they continued to follow it until the plane crashed. It was a HUGE story in Dallas, because he was coming to the Frisco area (in the metroplex) to negotiate a new golf course in that city. Also, Payne Stewart was a popular guy at the Byron Nelson golf tournament in Dallas, because he was known for his knickerbockers.

This was a huge story and it was a sad day.

[Zero Gravitas]

61. Excellent post

We know they are covering up something, and the most likely thing this lot would want to cover up is their own incompetence. Bush* was too busy wetting himself and finding a place to hide, Cheney was too busy figuring out how to make a profit (answer: dust off those old Invade Iraq plans) and the rest were too shocked to take up the slack left by the leadership vacuum.

Speculation about Flight 93 being shot down has been around from day 1, but there's no way to proove it unless the pilot(s) and/or their ground crews come forward.

This is the fist I've heard of an engine coming down 8 miles away. Do you have any documentation on that?

[rman]

65. Your coincidence theory

seems to hinge on the collapse of the buildings.

"..This was so much bigger than they expected, frighteningly so. Who knew those buildings were going to fall down?
They couldn't believe it, and therefore hesitated.."

The fact that one plane had already collided and a second one was coming, wasn't enough reason not to hesitate to order a shoot down? But had they known the buildings would collapse then they would not have hesitated?

[slaveplanet]

68. for those you still think

WTC #7 just fell down

//Who knew those buildings were going to fall down?//

the buildings did not just fall down- they had a lot of help.

and I don't mean an airplane and jet fuel, neither involved in wtc #7.

wtc #1 & #2 were designed to withstand a Boeing 747 hit. And numerous reports of firefighters near those floors called in that the fires were not that bad. This is why the firefighters were rushing in ... not out.
Research the many highrise fires of history. Many burnt for days on end. Let us know how wtc #7 just fell down.


September 12, 2001
New York City
 
Louie Cacchioli, 51, is a firefighter assigned to Engine 47 in Harlem.
We were the first ones in the second tower after the plane struck. I was taking firefighters up in the elevator to the 24th floor to get in position to evacuate workers. On the last trip up a bomb went off. We think there was bombs set in the building. I had just asked another firefighter to stay with me, which was a good thing because we were trapped inside the elevator and he had the tools to get out.
There were probably 500 people trapped in the stairwell. It was mass chaos. The power went out. It was dark. Everybody was screaming. We had oxygen masks and we were giving people oxygen. Some of us made it out and some of us didn't. I know of at least 30 firefighters who are still missing. This is my 20th year. I am seriously considering retiring. This might have done it. snip-

and another article:
Unexplained 9-11 Explosion at WTC Complex-
Despite the fact that the horrible events of Sept. 11 occurred in broad daylight and were widely photographed, significant aspects of the attacks have been completely suppressed by a media blackout.

Exclusive to American Free Press
By Christopher Bollyn
A massive explosion, witnessed by millions of television viewers on CNN, evidently devastated World Trade Center 6, the eight-story U.S. Customs building, although no national newspaper, other than American Free Press, has written a word about it.

Before the smoke had cleared from around the stricken South Tower, a mysterious explosion shot 550 feet into the air above the U.S. Customs House at WTC 6.

The unexplained blast occurred between the burning North Tower and the 47-story Salomon Brothers Building, known as WTC 7, immediately after United Airlines Flight 175 smashed into the South Tower, at about 9:03 a.m. -snip-




http://www.mujahideen.fsnet.co.uk/wtc/wtc-hijackers.htm
Seven of the WTC Hijackers found alive!
"Mr Al-Hamzi is 26 and had just returned to work at a petrochemical complex in the industrial eastern city of Yanbou after a holiday in Saudi Arabia when the hijackers struck. He was accused of hijacking the American Airlines Flight 77 that hit the Pentagon." - Telegraph 23rd September 2001
Ahmed Alnami (Flight 93)
"I'm still alive, as you can see. I was shocked to see my name mentioned by the American Justice Department. I had never even heard of Pennsylvania where the plane I was supposed to have hijacked." He had never lost his passport and found it "very worrying" that his identity appeared to have been "stolen" and published by the FBI without any checks. The FBI had said his "possible residence" was Delray Beach in Florida. " - Telegraph 23rd September 2001
Flight 11 (North Tower)


I know Will knows about this because I've seen him refer to it on truthout:

http://www.halturnershow.com/FEMA.htm
During the interview, Mr. Kennedy let slip a frightening truth.  FEMA sent the Urban Search and Rescue Team to New  
York City the night before the attacks occurred!  Mr. Kennedy tells Dan Rather, "We're currently one of the first teams  
that was deployed to support the City of New York in this disaster.  We arrived on late Monday night 

[Zero Gravitas]

81. Not a 747

but a 707. The towers were designed to withstand the impact of a 707, a much smaller plane than the 747. In fact the buildings withstood the impact of the 767s (again much larger than the 707) but what the designers did not allow for was the jet fuel fires.

[Blue_Roses]

116. true

I watched a documentary on this and it said the insulating around the steel that is made to protect the beams from fire looked to be "knocked off," from the impact of the plane, causing it to become unstable much faster, therefore resulting in collaspe.

[Gin]

83. my 2 cents....I think they knew of an attack and the day of an attack..

Rumsfeld supposedly carried out the victims of the pentagon...I think I saw a video of him doing that....

I do believe this was exactly what they needed, and even wanted to put their plan in action. OBL has helped shrub as a result. Maybe the two were connected more than we know.

How did the FBI have ALL that info the day after and not before?

I believe they were complicit on 9-11 and even though it makes me sick to my stomach to think that, I do.

The end result is all that matters to them.

The truth will come out. They will be held responsible.

[Timefortruth]

109. Even at the time Rumsfeld's

helping victims when the Nation was under attack seemed to me to be an unnecessary risk and waste of time for the Secretary of Defense. I remember thinking that it was a strange time for him to be in a photo-op.

[Gordon25]

82. One question lies at the heart of 9-11 confusion

There is one question which lies at the heart of the conflict between the "Official Version" of 9-11, the LIHOP and MIHOP theories.

The question is simply this: who were the hijackers? We don't know.

Some things we do know: five of those named as hijackers had been trained at U.S. Military run intelligence-related courses conducted on U.S. Military bases. At least one of them listed Pensacola Naval Air Station as home address on driver's liscense. None of thieir names were on the passenger flight lists released. Three (or possibly more) of them have turned up "alive" at various places in the middle east, some claiming their identity had been stolen. We have eye witness accounts and confirming documentary evidence that Mohammed Atta (the supposed fundamentalist Muslim fanatic ringleader) lived in Florida at least six months prior to 9-11 and had a blonde Christian anglo girlfriend living with him (who has since disappeared according to some reports); and that Atta held frequent loud parties, used cocaine regularly, and regularly attended local strip clubs. Some religious fanatic, huh?

It is wise to remember that we have not had anything approaching a full investigation of 9-11. Evidence was destroyed before ever being looked at (all the steel from the trade towers have long since been reprocessed at a South Korean recycling outfit with ownership ties to Carlyle). Mohammed Atta's passport was miraculously "found" by a New York policeman sitting on top of a pile of rubble three blocks from the trade center, which passport then led to rental car parked in airport lot in which were found the pilot's uniforms and questionable letters and documents implicating the other hijackers. The day after 9-11 a c-130 aircraft arrived at the Florida flight school where Atta supposedly trained, and a crew loaded all evidence and files from the school onto the plane (on which Jeb Bush was a "passenger") and it took off to an undisclosed location. Less than three weeks into the official "investigation" Bush, through Ashcroft, ordered all Justice Department and Federal intelligence agency investigations halted, and all Justice Department resources devoted to attempts to prevent any future such attacks.

So, just one minor question sits at the heart of all this confusion. Despite the thousands of times we've been told by a compliant media that it was all done by the evil Ossama Bin Laden and fundamental Muslim terrorists linked to Al Queda, the fact is we have no idea if there were any fundamentalist Muslim hijackers, much less who they were or what they were doing. In short, we do not know who did it. Until that question is answered, all the other issues like NORAD response times, and the suspicious behavior of Bush and his cronies, are questions of decidedly secondary importance.

Gordon25

[YNGW]

86. Conspiracy Theories

>LIHOP is a conspiracy theory right now.

If you show a conspiracy theorist evidence where their conspiracy theory is incorrect, the conspiracy theorist only sees it as further evidence that the conspiracy theory is true, otherwise why would someone be trying to prove that it is not true.

That's why I don't have conversations with conspiracy theorists. Never ever ever. Live and learn.

[Q]

88. So then...you're suggesting that there's no such thing...

...as a 'real' conspiracy? Perhaps you should look up the definition?

- My guess is that 'theorists' never have conversations with you either because of your inability to think outside of the box.

[YNGW]

89. Thank You!

>My guess is that 'theorists' never have conversations with you either

Can I get that promise in writing??

Have a good day!

:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

[dpibel]

98. Official story

If you show an Official Storyist where the official story makes no sense, they call you a conspiracy theorist and say there's no obligation to prove anything, because we have the official story.

[hang a left]

101. yeah, and then they wont "never ever ever" talk to you

on edit; change one of my evers to a never

[Old and In the Way]

128. "Coincidence theories."

>That's why I don't have conversations with conspiracy theorists


If you show a coincidence theorist evidence where their coincidence theory is incorrect, the coincidence theorist only sees it as further evidence that the coincidence theory is true, otherwise why would someone be trying to prove that it is not true.

That's why I don't have conversations with coincidence theorists. Never ever ever. Live and learn.

[chookie]

113. More "coincidences"

Gee, talk about "chatter" that makes you nervous about something big on the way.

Cheney holds a top secret energy policy meeting in Jan/Feb 2001, and refuses to disclose the topics discussed or who attended -- although it leaks out that Iraqi oil and obstructions to plans for a cross-Afghani pipeline were discussed, and that Ken Lay was one of the guys who attended.

Cheney orders in Jan 2001 that American intelligence "lay off" ongoing surveillance of Saudis, because it was threatening a deal he was trying to work out with them.

Bush announces in May of 2001 that he decided to think outside the Clinton administration box, and formed a new counter-terrorism task force, making Cheney the leader and Joe Albaugh second.

Clinton advisors pointedly warned Condi Rice in Dec 2000/Jan 2001 that Osama bin Laden was up to something big. Osama bin Laden who was known to be living in Afghanistan and running training camps for terrorists. The administration declines to take up their advice that he be dealt with on an urgent basis.

lots of chatter of this type.

Sounds like a plan.

[Junkdrawer]

121. This theory, posted as a DU Fable May 2002, is my fav...

Part I - The Story So Far

In a certain large country to the west of one place and the east of another, an ambitious group of southerners manages to convince a large minority of their fellow citizens to vote for their presidential candidate, a compliant cretin with the morals of a rabid mink. Unfortunately, in a winner-take-all democracy this is not enough for him to win, so the mostly southern military obligingly sends in a few thousand illegal absentee ballots to tip the scales and the cretin's gutless opponent refuses to challenge him.

"Whoop-de-doo!" shout the handlers when the cretin dons the crown. The cretin and his handlers are in charge for four long years. They immediately start pursuing a loony right-wing agenda, trucking billions to all their rich friends and putting military leaders and their civilian catamites in positions of power -- long the custom in all banana republics.

But, much to the consternation of the handlers, the majority who actually won the election just won't sign off on their increasingly loony proposals. What they need is what they had in the good old days of a global face-off with a now defunct enemy: emergency powers, the pretext of a massive threat to the nation's security to crush or imprison their enemies, steal still more of the nation's common wealth, and pare down the annoying institution of democratic government to a useless nub.

Purely coincidentally, an old friend of the cretin, who's had a born-again experience and has decided that the great nation to the west of one place and the east of another is Satan incarnate, starts to make plans for an assault on the fortress of evil. Word comes to the cretin's handlers that this is in the works but rather than taking steps to pre-empt it they start top-secret internal discussions (from which the cretin is of course excluded). What if this attack, whatever it is, is allowed to proceed? they wonder.

More...

The Story So Far

And, again, the "Stand Down" or LIHOP is supported by many "coincidences" including several FBI blocks and the fact that Afghan invasion plans were on Bush's desk a week BEFORE 9/11.