The Dean campaign's "unelectable" meme

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

At a MoveOn.Org event last night, someone asked us to sign up for their "Dump Bush" mailing list, which my SO and I gladly did. When the women signing us up noticed my SO's Dennis Kucinich bag, she launched in on a familiar tirade I remember from DU, mostly before Clark got into the race. It goes like this:

"Oh, I love Dennis Kucinich, but he's unelectable. He's too far left, and America isn't ready for a vegan/leftist/whatever. That's why we should all rally around Dean."

What's funny, ironic, insulting, or sad, depending on how you look at it, is that this young women was lecturing my SO, who has about 10 years organizing experience in the Democratic party, from official to unofficial, from local to state level, over the course of 8 elections, about "electability." This women was completely unfamiliar with Dean's record as governor in Vermont, his support of NAFTA and other neo-liberal policies, and also completely ignorant of Dennis Kucinich and his record of winning elections in a split Republican/Democratic and conservative/liberal district and his ability to gain the support of "Reagan Democrats" and Republicans and independents. Not to mention that Gephardt has been in the top tier of candidates, simply on his strength as a populist, pro-labor and sometimes protections politician. Yet here she was, repeating the standard anti-Kucinich line that the Dean camp came up with back in the MoveOn primary days that Dean is somehow more "electable" than Kucinich.

What's amusing is that this same technique is now used against Dean, but almost everyone, especially by the Kerry and Clark campaigns. The meme worked against Kucinich - most people who would naturally be his constituency compromised with Dean early on, thus pulling the activist base further to the right, and keeping opposition to Nafta and corporate power in general strictly as a side issue.

Here's my simple opinion: Most of the Democratic candidates are further left on social issues than most Americans. On issues like gay marriage, late term abortion, and symbolic issues like flag burning and the Pledge of Alliegance, the Democratic party and especially the activist base is much more liberal than your average American. The stereotypes of "liberals" as weak on defense and out of step with mainstream America is mostly based on these kinds of social and symbolic issues, and not on populist economics. What's interesting about the Dean campaign is that while Dean himself has never been a liberal, his stand on social issues makes him seem like one, and added to his support of rolling back all of Bush's tax cuts makes him quite a wide target for the "liberal" stereotype. We have all those disadvantages, but few of the populist advantages.

A quick look to the campaigns of Ross Perot, Pat Buchanan, and Ralph Nader, and the heros of our own party like Paul Wellstone, it's should be obvious that populist, left-wing, labor-oriented - and yes, sometimes protectionist - economic policies resonate with Americans over a wide spectrum, from left to right to center, and many Americans will even vote third-party when they are the only people who offer those kinds of populist politics - let's not forget that Perot took 20% of the vote, and Clinton would not have beaten Bush if Perot wasn't in the race. Clinton himself ran that campaign as a populist, and didn't reveal his true platform until after his election.

The fact that Dean has transformed himself into a pseudo-populist to run for President, and the way every candidate, Democratic or Republican, tries to play up populist themes, shows that Kucinich is in fact quite electable, and his ideas have a very wide appeal.

[CMT]

1. that is a shame

That woman will learn someday that isn't the way to go about gaining supporters for a candidate.

[Hep]

3. I doubt it

but it's all the more important that WE look at that and realize that it's abbout unityin 2004, not division now.

[mdmc]

2. Its not if you can win

but its the perception of being able to win. In May I went to my monthly dem meeting to push for anti war protests and for our committee to endorse Dean. The Chairman whispered and laughed throughout my presentation, at one time remarking, "God! Thats the last thing that we need!" (this was right after NYSAG Spitzer suggested Dean was "unelectable".)
My Chairman is now a delegate for Dean.

[Scott Lee]

4. No one has been a greater target of "unelectable" than Dean

So your little missive that tries to paint Kucinich as it's lone quarry falls completely flat.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

5. hmm, perhaps try reading the post next time?

"What's amusing is that this same technique is now used against Dean, but almost everyone, especially by the Kerry and Clark campaigns. The meme worked against Kucinich"

[Scott Lee]

13. hmm, perhaps look at who the article is propping?

Physician, heal thyself.

[AngryYoungMan]

6. Clinton would have beat Bush anyway

That's a common misconception. Add Perot's votes to Bush's and Clinton still wins.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

7. I thought these were the numbers:

Bush 37.7%, Clinton 43.3%, Perot 19.0%, so 37.7 + 19 > 43.3. Not sure how it breaks down by electoral votes, though.

[JVS]

23. I'm with you on this

The best "evidence" that Clinton would have won anyway was some pundit in a newspaper who merely asserted it. That is all I could get when I demanded some proof. Until I see some kind of data to back it up, I'll consider it legitimate to say that Perot helped Clinton. Mainly because I don't know any Democrats who were excited about Perot and some of Perot's best showings were in some Western states that usually go REP and went for Clinton in 92, such as Montana

[JNelson6563]

8. Bad strategy

I remember how I felt when the woman I invited to talk to ourlocal board about Clark told me that basically Clark was the only electable candidate. I told her that was an arrogant statement sure to cause more division than unity. Told I would never say such a thing about Dean because it's ridiculous, we have plenty of electable candidates.

Arrogance is subscribed to by some in all camps. I wish it would stop.

Julie

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

11. Oh, the Clarkies are the *best* at this meme

Electibility seems to be their more important quality, and they have hammered Dean over it consistently.

[bobbyboucher]

9. Heresay.

Any video of you and your SO getting advice from a Deanie?

Interesting story nonetheless.

[TLM]

10. Sour grapes...

Kucinich is not electable on the national level for a number of reasons. Saying that DK is unelectable is like saying that a retarded kid is retarded... insensitive yes, inaccurate, no.

What's he polling at now... less than 1% in most states.

It is a fact that DK just doesn't draw much support, even from the democrats. In a national election he'd do even worse.

And the reason he drew repuke votes in Ohio was that he was anti-choice and hyper religious. The repukes liked that, but don’t think for one second they've vote for DK over Bush.

[Octafish]

29. Coward Dean is unelectable.

If Ho-Ho's the nominee, Rove will get "Dean the draft-dodging skiier" story into the public consciousness and we'll be stuck with four more years of Bush.

[Scott Lee]

37. Meme #245610

Thank you for choosing Dial-A-Meme. This is your 459th call.

Please choose your meme by dialing the number. After your selection is made, press the # key.

[Capn Sunshine]

40. What you dont seem to understand

THIS time , we fight BACK.We ARE fighting back. we continue to fight back. Bring up the "coward skier"? Absolutely NO compunction bringing up in mainstream press the coked up awol boy.

Remember this wasn't done in the last election , by a candidate.

This is Howard Dean, not Tom Daschle.

[Hep]

41. Will the bashers apologize if proven wrong?

No doubt there will be a thread!

[Octafish]

53. There's nothing to apologize for, is there?

Even when the courtesy was not extended, I haven't called you anything untoward. OTOH, I have called Dean what he is — a draft dodger.

[Octafish]

46. If he's so brave, why did he dodge the draft?

Dean's back was good enough to hit the moguls for 80-plus days. Don't say he couldn't walk with a backpack, he hiked the length of a Vermont as governor. Rove will point that out to more people than I.

BTW: I appreciate he's no Tom Daschle. If he's the nominee, Dean will get my vote.

[Scott Lee]

48. Lying meme #44528 - "Dean dodged the draft"

This has been proven wrong so many times that it doesn't warrant yet another telling. But please, don't let us stop you. I think you have at least 15 bucks or so left on your MemeCard. Party away!

[Octafish]

54. Dean went skiing. He hit the moguls. He poured concrete.

He partied it up. He dodged the draft and celebrated.

Mock me all you want. That's what happened.

Oh yeah. Thanks for reminding me: Dean didn't protest the war, either.

[MGKrebs]

12. Obviously there is more to winning elections than policies.

A bit sad, I suppose, but that's life. Looks, campaign management, luck, style, attracting money, all those things count too.

I don't know why DK is behind in money and polls, but if he doesn't win, I can be pretty sure of this- it can't be blamed on anyone but himself... which is the case for every other candidate too. They know what they are getting into, and they pretty much know what they need to do. If they are not willing to do (or capable of doing) what is necessary to win, then they will have to be satisfied trying to make things better from the outside.

[dajabr]

14. Perhaps I missed it...

What was her affiliation with The Dean Campaign - other than being a supporter?

[kodi]

15. goes to show you how much more informed democrats really are

as if.

there are as many mindless democrats who bite onto a single issue as the other side.

thinking otherwise is wishful thinking.

[Hep]

16. It's OUR meme? Someone's delusional!

I'm STILL hearing the "Dean is unelectable" meme. Why not place responsibility where it belongs? On EVERY candidate hating knuckledragger.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

17. okay, one more time

The Dean people used this meme against DK, and it worked. Now it's being used against Dean, and since he's been ahead for so long, he gets attacked as unelectable more than anyone.

What is frustrating is that this technique was effective in getting certain ISSUES off the table, like opposition to free trade agreements and the like.

[dajabr]

18. Why just Dean people?

I think that sentiment was conveyed by a wide and deep spectrum of non-DK (and some DK) supporters here at DU.

Can we have some facts to back up your broad-based smear of one group here at DU?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

20. broad based smear? just Dean people?

who exactly are you responding too? I didn't write any of the things you're talking about, so it's hard to figure just what you are trying to say?

[dajabr]

22. "The Dean people used this meme against DK"

Did you not write that?

Why no mention of Sharpton, Edwards, Kerry, Lieberman, Clark, Braun, Graham, Gephardt supporters who hold this opinion as well.

How can you presuppose to know where this "meme" started? You seem to think it started with the Dean Camp - prove it to me.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

25. dajabr, never mind

really, forget it. Almost a year ago, when DK and Dean were the most supported candidates on DU, every thread comparing DK and Dean had 15 or so "Kucinich is unelectable" responses, from Dean people.

Now, everyone attacks Dean as "unelectable" - and have for a while really. The whole idea of "unelectability" has been used not just to attack candidates, but to prevent issues from being discussed.

But if you want to pretend this is just about Dean-bashing, I'm sure nothing I can say will stop you.

[dajabr]

27. I'd be more receptive to your broader point...

If you did not pin the origin of this "meme" on one group of supporters at DU.

I've been here for close to a year, support Dean, and I am extremely confident that I've never once posted that DK was unelectable. And I've certainly never encouraged the posters from ALL camps who have said that in some kind of effort to squelch his voice on important issues.

Further, I know of no coordinated effort online or offline among Dean supporters to propagate this type of attack on DK (unlike what is going on with Clarkies saying this about Dean at the moment).

As I've posted before, I lament the loss of kindred spirit our camps used to share (remember, our guys were both long-shots who railed against Bush's War). I, and most Deanies I know hold Dennis in very high regard, and have nothing but respect for the man and his ideas.

But, putting this all on the shoulders of Deanies does what, exactly? To me, this false premise only distracts from your larger point - of which I mostly agree. All I see is the pointing finger of blame, and not the message.

Oh, never mind...

[ThirdWheelLegend]

21. agreed there

"What is frustrating is that this technique was effective in getting certain ISSUES off the table, like opposition to free trade agreements and the like."

This is the exact meme that was used in discussion after discussion.

Comparisons and contrasts between Dean, Kucinich and others were effectively derailed by this being spouted in response. What was pushed off the table were the differences between the two candidates on key issues. Not only trade, but UHC and the Patriot Act and the pentagon budget. Issues that Kucinich is simply better on were unimportant once the 'enelectable' meme overwhelmed the conersation.

It is ironic to see it used against Dean now. I believe Dean is electable. Just as I believe Kucinich is electable.

TWL

[MGKrebs]

24. Even if I were to agree with the statement,

IF it was effective getting certain (DK's?)issues off of the table, what exactly are we whining about here? Every candidate will try to take their opponents strong issues "off the table". The effectiveness of their efforts are limited to how well their subject responds. IF DK isn't responding in a way to keep the issues up front, then why are we blaming others? We are blaming here, right? What's the point?

Also, I feel like the "Dean is unelectable" rant was much stronger earlier in the campaign. As he continues to raise money, get supporters and endorsements, and lead polls, it is getting much harder to sustain that argument.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

26. well I for one don't like to say it anymore

I always considered Dean a long shot for the general election, but I don't say it much now since he's likely to win the nomination, and there is no sense in saying our candidate can't win. It is a legitimate issue.

Blame? Put it this way - yes, I "blame" the Dean supporters here that spent so much time defending and minimizing Dean's support of Nafta while chanting "DK is unelectable" and attacking his looks constantly. It worked - the Democratic party, even if Dean wins, is likely to follow the corporate line on free trade agreement from now on.

The "pragmatists" who picked Dean early on as "electable" destroyed our chance of dealing with the issue, and if Dean loses the general, it will be even more bitterly ironic.

[MGKrebs]

31. Not sure I want to get into this,

(this has been covered here so much), but, interested in your perspective: how could Dean be seen as less "electable" than DK? By what criteria? I assume we are talking about "electable" as opposed to "nominatable", meaning, appeal to the general electorate. Because Dean won't sign on to one of the most leftist, radical positions DK supports?

Which brings up another point; one could make the case that the NAFTA issue is not really off the table, it's just that Dean's position is seen as less drastic and more realistic than DK's.

Blame- although I think DU has some influence in political debate, I think it is unlikely that DU'er DK bashers are responsible for the Democratic party's eventual support of a candidate.

I am sympathetic to your concerns about NAFTA, but it is not at the top of the list for some of us.

Finally, I like DK. In fact, I like him right where he is. That's not a slam. He can be very effective working in Congress, and probably would have a lot more freedom to aggressively pursue the progressive agenda there than he would as president. I have felt for a while now that if Gore had become Prez, we would then be ready for a DK presidency. But Gore is not (officially) President, the country has taken a little turn to the right, and we have to make up that ground first before we get back to selling a progressive agenda to Main St.

(sorry- not as well though out as I would like, pressed for time here.)

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

33. Kucinich more electable than Dean

A good case can be made that Kucinich is more electable than Dean. Kucinich's most "radical left wing" position is his support of gay marriage, not too different than Dean's. His economic policies appeal across the spectrum - as I said, from Buchanan to Perot to Wellstone, the kind of populist economic policies than Kucinich supports is supported by a wide diverse group of people. Dean's centrist, business friendly economic policies are popular in the corporate media, but not among most Americans.

Kucinich has won elections in a district that is probably a whole lot more representative of America than Vermont. Kucinich has federal experience that Dean does not have. Kucinich has appealed aross cultural lines that Dean has not. Perhaps Kucinich is more electable than Dean?

Of course Dean is the one that's likely to win the nomination, and Kucinich is not.

Early on, here and on MoveOn.Org, the refrain I heard from Dean supporters was that he's not that liberal, but moderate enough to be electable. It's obviously not the fault of Dean supporters that Kucinich's campaign didn't grow, but there were PLENTY of Dean supporters that have posted on this site, other sites, and told me personally that they loved Kucinich but wanted to run a "moderate" in the hopes of winning the election.

That kind of attitude meant that the "left" - and I'll include plenty of Dean supporters that I know - compromised a lot of their platform away for the sake of "electability" early on.

[Scott Lee]

38. Cool! So, where is his support and poll numbers? Money?

I mean, surely if Kucinich is more "electable" than Dean, he should be outrunning Dean right now, correct?

Hello?

[Eloriel]

34. This demonstrates the problems I've found with some DK

supporters,

As I said in another post : I don't like the man. I loke his politics, but that is NOT everything in a candidate.

You talk about Dean supporters as if it were a concentrated or coordinated effort to merely "paint" DK as unelectable. That's untrue on both counts. And it's unfair and IMO quite ugly to boot.

I'll also say again that I didn't "settle" on Dean. I am crazy about the man, most of his policies, his vision, his Campaign manager, the campaign he is running, the inclusiveness and interactivity, the reinvigoration and revitalization of the democratic process itself, and more.

Your attitude of blaming Dean and Dean supporters here for DK's failure is unattractive and wrongheaded. It's not fair -- or logical -- to blame a few Dean people here (even if it were hundreds or even thousands) on DK's lack of success.

Eloriel

[quaker bill]

56. The only person responsible for DK

is Dk. I agree with you on Dean. He is the real deal.

[Hep]

36. You're wrong from the start

People have been questioning Dean's electability since day one. The only thing that even helped make it go away is his tremendous grassroots support and fundraising ability. I didn't think Kucinich was electable when I saw him on Crossfire in February, but I've thought Dean was electable from the start. There are significant policy differences that contribute as well.

[YNGW]

19. I'm beginning to be of the opinion...

.... that our party needs to nominate Kucinich. Doing so, and the results of that election, would finally answer the age-old question of whether or not our party needs to move more to the left.

[Sterling]

51. DK is not the left thx for playing though.

It's the lack of Charisma not his politics that leave him at the bottom of the stack.

[mrgorth]

28. There's no problem with stumping for your candidate

vote for who you want and support the nominee. It should be that easy.

[Eloriel]

30. I didn't compromise with Dean

I don't LIKE DK. And no one, least of all DK, can make me like him.

Eloriel

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

32. I know Eloriel

I know, you support NAFTA and the rest of the corporate trade agreements, so no, I expect it was no compromise for you to support Dean.

As has been said before, accurately, Dean is not a liberal, so it seems liberals are compromising their platform by supporting Dean. If he's nominated, I sure hope he wins.

[Eloriel]

35. Apparently you don't know

you support NAFTA and the rest of the corporate trade agreements

You can't find anything in any post I've ever made that even suggests that, 'cause it ain't true.

Eloriel

[Scott Lee]

39. Eloriel watch - they will make that lie into a new meme.

It's the M.O. See, memes don't have to be the truth.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

44. The fact that Dean support NAFTA is the absoulte truth

He's on public record supporting it - damn right it's a "meme" - one that Dean and his new sponsor Gore, spent their careers supporting.

[Scott Lee]

49. You can find all the warts you care to look for

Kerry voted for war and the Patriot Act

Gephardt voted for war and is a Bush enabler

Kucinich is a vegan

Lieberman is just DINO loser

Clark is a junta waiting to happen


See? I can go on an on. The point is none of the candidates are perfect in every way for all of their supporters. But you shake it out and see if the good outweighs the bad. The second you become a single issue voter is when it would be better for you to stay home from the polls.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

43. we've talked about it numerous times, Eloriel

You repeated said that you supported free trade agreements, just wanted to add the "environmental and labor protections". Are you saying that you didn't say that? Are you saying you and I didn't have this argument numerous times?

[goodhue]

42. thanks for posting this, you analysis is spot on

"Oh, I love Dennis Kucinich, but he's unelectable. He's too far left, and America isn't ready for a vegan/leftist/whatever. That's why we should all rally around Dean."

Yeah, I hear this a lot. Over and over and over in fact. I used to engage such people but now I just move on. Not worth the effort. It's like banging your head against a wall, after awhile it hurts.

I'm not certain that these folks fully realize how insulting it is. Or else they don't care. As you suggest the irony in the Deaniacs attempts to educate Kucitizens is lost on them. And by alienating Kucitizens they run the risk of these folks suporting Nader if he runs (which he will likely do if Dean is nominee).

[no name no slogan]

45. EXACTLY what I've been thinking!!!

I was thinking about posting something along this line, but you've beat me to it!

When will the Democrats learn? We win (and win BIG) when we talk about ECONOMIC FAIRNESS. These have ALWAYS been our winning issues, and will continue to be if our candidates continue to support economic populism over the moneyed elites.

We, as Democrats, don't win elections on social issues: mainly because the Repubs (with more $$ and a better "machine") do a good job of marginalizing us as "wimps" or "sissies" (just labels, I know).

This is why, IMHO, it is political suicide to run yet another economic "conservative" or "moderate" who is liberal on social issues instead of an economic "liberal" or "populist" who is liberal-to-moderate on social issues.

Our recent past history of economic "conservatives" running has proven this-- they get beat in general elections, sometimes by a hair, sometimes by a wide margin. BUT, when the real "fighting" economic populists run, they win, and oftentimes WIN BIG.

We have a clear choice this election: win with a candidate who's liberal on economics, or lose with a fiscal "moderate" who has little appeal beyond the 5% of "independents" s/he might get.

[bleedingheart]

47. Every Dem I know likes what Kucinich says but all say they won't vote

for him because he is unelectable...which I find odd. If all the people who said that would vote for Kucinich...he would be the frontrunner.

[JVS]

57. I'm voting for Kucinich.

Unless Kucinich is out of the picture and it is very tight between a candidate I like and a candidate I dislike, in which case I'll have to hold my nose and vote for the better in the horserace. But I hope that I will end up voting for Kucinich, he's the best.

[Sterling]

50. That is too bad cuz DK is not too far left.

I like his views on lots of issues I just think he lacks pizaz or whatever the "it" factor is we look for in a leader. A lot of people feel that way. They really like him but he just is not the right guy.

[enki23]

52. wasn't kucinich previously anti-abortion? anti gay marriage?

and what effect, do you think, those positions had on his appeal to some republicans? what effect, do you think, they'll have now that he's changed them?

i like dennis, but his past history may not be very predictive of his present chances. his poll numbers probably tell a better story. i wish it weren't true, and i'd vote for him in a primary if i had one (don't think i can do the caucus thing in iowa when i'm no longer actually living there, and i'm a registered independent anyway). it's not that he's unelectable, it's just that he doesn't stand much of a chance of being elected.

[Polemonium]

55. Your generalizing

I've heard and said something similar at a recent get together of Dean supporters, but that does not imply that the only reason I don't support Kucinich is because I feel he is unelectable. He may well be electable, but articulating why I don't support a guy who has some good ideas is not easy to do in a few words. I'm not sure where this person who made this comment stands, but I imagine she reached her decision based on more than one or two factors. My support for Dean is based on something that I feel is much greater than ideas or rhetoric. My support for him is based on hope, and the involvement of thousands of Americans. Dean inspires hope, in a broad spectrum of people. That hope has resulted in more grassroots involvement than we have seen in 30 years. I support Dean because the ideas coming out of the Dean campaign are coming from us, and he is listening actively. Be honest, Dean is the most populist candidate we have seen in three decades. Clinton was popular, but he never had this kind of grassroots involvement. The other Dean supporters I've met are getting involved for the first time, and the people I have spoken to have been awakened to political involvement for the long term. Energizing people to take part in the political process is an amazing thing. Your right, populist politics resonate with the people and it is not a coincidence that the things coming out of the Dean campaign reflect populist ideas. Dean supporters feel real hope that the guy that we the people elect will be more responsive to we the people. Naive, perhaps but genuine hope none-the-less. Health care for all Americans is more likely to be fought for by a populist candidate, and a candidate with more fired up grassroots support is more likely to get health care for all Americans.

Kucinich may have been able to tap into this grassroots power, but the fact is that he didn't. We have the potential to have a real populist candidate. It is something that inspires hope that a populist agenda will again be found in D.C.