Are Democrats really this easily manipulated?! Come to your senses!

[janx]

1. There is confusion between the DNC (official Democratic arm) and DLC (unofficial power brokers).

2. I've read the moronic statements from From and the DLC about Dean, but what makes you think that Clinton would support such nonsense? I know that the DLC thinks they "made" Clinton. My opinion of them at this point is that they have too much power and are nothing but rich party insiders in D.C. who are currently completely disinterested in democracy. But can we assume that just because some kingpins of the DLC don't like Dean, Clinton doesn't like him either? I don't know that that necessarily follows.

There have been actual memos from the DLC online, but there has also been a heck of a lot of gossip concerning the relationships between the DNC, the DLC, the Clintons, and certain candidates. Most of this gossip has been heavily fueled by the Republicans.

Does anyone else here not understand this?

[mr_hat]

1. I don't.

[Langis]

2. So you are saying Clinton wants Dean to lose

To Hillary can win in '08? :evilgrin:

[janx]

5. NO. I am saying that people around here are buying into

so much tabloid journalism, so many theories (most put forth by people with anti-Dem interests), that they're not thinking clearly.

People aren't even thinking about where they read what.

[Langis]

6. I was just being a smart ass

You bring up some good points.
:toast:

[janx]

10. Sorry--it's tough to discern these things in the middle of all

of this hysteria.

I appreciate the clarification.

[demgrrrll]

3. I sure do. From the comments section at Atrios someone wrote

The sound you hear is Al From's head exploding. Tee Hee Hee.

[janx]

8. Well I believe that part because I saw the memos (I think?).

But I don't believe some of the junk that is being circulated around this website--the Clintons pushing Clark and hating Dean because of the DLC...ergo Dean and Clark must be enemies...ergo...ergo...etc.

I think that reasonable people have bought into the right wingnut tabloid junk without even being aware of it.

It is certainly referenced enough around here.

Maybe it's time we got a little more selective and used just a bit of critical thinking.

[vi5]

4. All of this gum flapping about the DLC/DNC and their power....

You are a citizen, you have a vote. Use it however you like. Nobody from the DLC is in the voting booth with you either for the primary or the general election.

Any group of people is allowed to talk up or lobby on behalf of whoever they like.

You don't like an organization then don't vote for their candidate.

But unless they are somehow taking away your vote then they have no more power over you than the ACLU or the NRA or the AARP or the AFL-CIO or any other group that endorses a candidate.

[janx]

9. Exactly. But I wonder whether a lot of DUers realize that.

I think they're buying into the crackpot news--the innuendo, the unnamed "sources," all of it!

I'd hate to see that dung heap color one of the most important elections of our lifetimes.

[BurtWorm]

7. Well said, janx!

The clue to how Clinton feels about Dean and the DLC is in the American Prospect interview by Michael Tomasky. Clinton made clear that he was angry with sideline Democrats trying to take out running Democrats with attacks on them--and anyone who has been paying attention knows who's been attacking whom.

[janx]

12. I enjoy reading TAP from time to time, and I ought to read

the article. But at the same time, I think this stuff gets Drudged and spun so much that people have no idea as to what the hell is going on!

Journalism in general has degenerated so much that people really have no idea what is happening. All kinds of assumptions are made.

Look at DU now.

[many a good man]

11. DLC's time has come and gone

Clinton was one of the founders (I think) of the DLC and their greatest success story of finding the "middle way" in American politics. 10-15 years ago it made a lot of sense given the circumstances. The L word was the kiss of death and it was "morning in America." :crazy:

The Big Red Propaganda machine convinced people that liberal initiatives like busing, quotas, soft on crime, soft on defense and welfarism had weakened the country. We were losing popular support and losing the all important money race at a time when campaigns were becoming exorbitantly expensive. We couldn't break through so the triangulation strategy was born: take away some of their biggest issues, appear moderate, and try to sneak in some liberal programs before things got too much worse.

Sorry for this boring little history lesson but we have to keep things in context. The country moved to the right and they didn't want our party shut out. There's still some sense to this approach, you have to admit.

With the DLC we are neck and neck 50-50 with the GOP. Because of the stupid electoral college we are in the minority in Congress. DLC presidential candidates have won the popular vote the last three elections in a row. Like it or not, the country is still evenly divided; is it worth the risks to jump too much to the left right now?

We don't want to argue this point; its pretty clear where most people stand on Republican-lite politics. The point is the DLC gets their legitimacy from the Big Dog and he probably still feels loyalty to them. So its not hard to understand why people would think he's in cahoots with them.

My feeling is deep down Bill resented the compromises he was forced to make. True, its made him wealthy, but deep down I think he's a truly decent liberal in the best sense. And one of the smartest politicians since FDR. If he thinks its the right thing to do to break with DLC he just may do it. Maybe he thinks the time has finally come when liberals can come out of the closet again nationwide.

[janx]

13. Thank you for a bit of history. That is sorely needed right now.

There was and is some sense to the approach; Democrats (especially in the South) were going Republican and the Democratic party had to adjust as independents and moderate Republicans came into their ranks or remained aloof while voting for Democrats.

But it *still* has to adjust. This transformation of American politics isn't over by any means. The DLC has to realize that they can't just take it part-way and insist after on some kind of stasis. The whole transformation is still very much in effect. And so yes, I agree that they have stopped, and they have stopped short--not very much at all, but they have stopped short. And I'm a moderate. I remained an independent voter (voting Dem, it's true) until I encountered Howard Dean in this horrible Chimpy situation. There are many others like me, and they're still coming.

Was the DLC really so uninformed that it read Dean for some kind of wild lefty? The right-wing nutjob media certainly picked up on that tidbit and ran with it. But did the DLC really believe that, or did it curtsy to the wiles of power and money?

Change is incremental, certainly, but they had to have known.

It would be refreshing if people could (I cringe at the word) deconstruct--or better yet, review their research--before going into the hysteria we've seen on this board.

[bread_and_roses]

14. It would be refreshing

if people would re-evaluate the failed "centrism" that lost the Democratic base and kow-towed to big money and Corporate interests. The Dems lose because they stopped fighting poverty, racism, wage-slavery and Oligarchy. They do not articulate a clear alternative vision. Sit in a working class bar and listen to low-wage earners defend the right of the rich to be free of taxes...while their children go to sub-standard schools and their roads are full of pot-holes and their employer forces them attend Union busting indoctrination sessions. They have heard nothing else for twenty years, since the Dems abandoned them. Hell, even with a majority of the American people saying they want National Health, most Dems are too in debt to Corporate interests to support it. Certainly Dean poses no challenge to this status-quo.

[Capn Sunshine]

16. If you went to a local Meetup

you would understand just how wrong you are. The power behind Dean is the people coming together to take back FROM the status quo. Not contribute TO. We can fund any worthy idea without lobbyists, and this power scares the bejeesus out of them.

[janx]

17. I've been in many working-class bars and many working-class

situations. And I have no idea what the hell you're talking about, since it doesn't even pertain to the subject of this thread.

[arewethereyet]

15. yes, manipulation is endemic

surely you see it almost daily.

[janx]

18. In the media, yes, and not only when it comes to politics.

Too much in everyday life is political. It's sick.

But it really gets perverted on political message boards. That's not helpful or useful.

[slinkerwink]

19. and it's just sickening.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

20. Clinton and Gore and Kerry and Edwards and Dean ARE DLC

The DLC is elected Democrats, except for old timers like Byrd and Kennedy and progressives like Kucinich and Lee. Is Clinton trying to hop on board the Dean bandwagon now? If so, that's hilarious (and sad).

[janx]

21. How do you know that? Back it up, please.

There are so many weird notions flying around now.

[mmonk]

22. Better tell the DLC

that Dean is DLC. They don't claim him.

[janx]

23. kick

[SeattleRob]

24. Exactly...

It's the old "Divide and Conquer" stategy. It drives me nuts reading the boards and seeing people beleive this stuff. The Republican pundits are trying to manipulate us and so many of us are taking it hook, line and sinker.

[janx]

25. They sure are. I wish more people were aware of that.

Currently, the right wingnut theme is that the Democratic party is divided between Gore and Clinton and that the Clintons were behind Clark's candidacy.

Here are just a few examples:

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/12928.htm

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/12928.htm

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=5880


I've already heard the usual nutjob rightwing pundits spouting the same theme on television today. It'll be all over radio.

It'll be repeated so stridently and so often that people will believe it, and they won't even remember where they heard it, and they won't even care.

The right wing wants to divide us. This is their strategy for now. I expect it will continue, but it is frustrating to see how it works on DU.