Several Major attacks last night around the globe

[Zuni]

5 killed, 13 injured by a suicide bomber in Moscow. A suicide car attack injures 41 US troops in Iraq. A US Helicopter shot down over Fallujah. A rocket attack on a mosque, or a bomb in a Mosque in Baghdad went off--no details on casulaties.

Terrible night it must have been.

[JanMichael]

1. Why do you call the attacks on Invading/Occupying forces "Terrorist"?

Just curious.

Oh and yes. Last night was bad.

[Blue_Chill]

2. Why not that is what they are

Especially now that one goal is to stop Iraqi's from aiding the Americans. They seek to show them that America can not protect them thru acts of violence. That my friend is terrorism.

[JanMichael]

7. State Terrorism is what we are committing.

Frankly I'd just like to get rid of the word "Terrorism" because it's too easy to label, often times incorrectly, whomever is your enemy a "terrorist".

[Zuni]

9. State terror

isn't the right term. That seems to me to describe the NKVD during Stalin's Great Purges.
The US is an occupying military force, and since the war it's actions have been fundamentally humane (aside from several incidents), although poorly thought out and badly led. The US could be far, far worse as an occupying power if it wanted to terrorize Iraq.

[JanMichael]

12. Couldn't the concept of "Shock and Awe" be considered...

...a "terror" seeking concept/action?

As to the Invasion being "State Terrorism" I simply used the fact that we have attacked and killed many thousands of people in a place that wasn't attacking, couldn't have attacked, us.

I guess that I just don't like the common uses of the word.

[Zuni]

14. Finding a proper definition for terrorism

is semantics. We will never reach a consensus on DU on a standardized term. Maybe we should stop using because it is a loaded term in the first place.

I guess we all have our own definitions based on our beliefs.

[JanMichael]

19. Bingo! I can live with that.

Thanks.

[polpilot]

37. Yeah...we're not even using flame throwers on the kindergartens yet!!!

Dean '04...

[Blue_Chill]

16. Terrorism my be used incorrectly too often but

The use of violence to shake civilian feelings of security and thus destabilize a budding goverment is terrorism. No mistake here.

You may think it justified but that does not change what it is.

[Patriot_Spear]

11. Fighting Guerilla style against an Occupation is Terrorism?

This is a pretty gray area... I normally associate Terrorism with acts principally against civilians.

[Zuni]

13. I would agree

but the line blurs when you use civilian cars, do not wear uniforms or identification of any kind and hide in the population as just another dude.

[Blue_Chill]

20. So you don't consider the killing of Iraqi Civilians

by those that want to make sure chaos remains to be terrorism?

Open your eyes, they are killing Iraqi police that do nothing more then try to keep civilians safe. If attacks were all against the US then you MIGHT have a point but they aren't. These people aren't fighting a guerilla war, they are killing anyone that doesn't support their amazingly HORRIFIC world view.

Sorry but the people blowing themselves and others up aren't moderates. You know who they are so stop pretending this is something it isn't.

[RPG-7]

22. police aren't civilians

The are the arab face of US imperialism, they are traitors, and they are in many ways more dangerous than our own troops as they lend legitimacy to whatever satrap regime we intend to impose on them.

[Blue_Chill]

24. Traitors?

Iraq is currently in a process that will ead to a constitution and possibly their first bill of rights. This could mean moderate Iraqis could finally free themselves from the religious fanatics, and for women this could be salvation!

But you call the men who want this process to move along traitors? I call them the TRUE freedom fighters. They don't like the US and want them gone for certain, but they want a free goverment and safe streets because they care more for their people then nationalist pride.

I was against the Iraqi war because I don't trust the US to pull out without robbing them blind. But I won't stand against a Iraqi that refuses to embrace violence and murder in the name of religion gone mad.

[RPG-7]

26. I have no idea what you are talking about

Religion or lack of it is completely irrelevant and if you think "democracy" is going to come out of the other end of what we do over there you can't see clearly. It just won't happen.

[Patriot_Spear]

31. You have no idea what's going on in Iraq, do you?

The shi'ites are the majority- which means they will tend toward some sort of Iranian inspired structure. Unless you plan to create some sort of modern version of Northern Ireland in Iraq by artificially putting a minority population in control.

[Blue_Chill]

40. It's called a liberal democracy

guaranteed rights offereing some protection for minorities in the face of majority opposition.

It starts with a constitution.....you really should be familiar with this system being that you live in a christian majority nation and are free to be whatever religion you wish.

[Patriot_Spear]

44. Well Mr. Rourke...

I'm not sure what episode of Fantasy Island you're pushing, but if you think at this point there is even a hope in Hell of a Democracy emerging from Iraq, I seriously question your judgement.

And I'll be happy to stack my credentials against yours anytime- if this is the best you have to offer.

[leanings]

29. So Iraq doesn't need any police? Ridiculous. n/t

[Patriot_Spear]

35. You missed the point- Police viewed as extension of US Occupation...

And therefore a target of the insurgents. That's all.

[leanings]

41. Follow that thru to it's conclusion.

Since police are an extension of the US occupation, they are therefore a bad thing, counterproductive and legitimate targets. No self-respecting Iraqi should go to work as a police officer. The damage done by having an established police force under the US occupation is greater than the damage done by not having a police force. Therefore, Iraq doesn't need police at the moment.

That's how I see that argument progressing, anyhow.

[Patriot_Spear]

43. You need to go at it from the other angle-

Why is Shrub Co. pushing for an Iraqi Police force? More bodies for the fray- that's all.

[leanings]

34. "RPG-7", huh? Welcome to DU

Are you engaged in some sort of fantasy where you're part of the Iraqi "resistance"? Have you ever actually seen an RPG?

[Patriot_Spear]

23. The French killed German colabarators...

And the Contra's, who Reagan and the CIA bankrolled, routinely used torture and rape to terrorize the country people.

Like I said it's a gray area- I think you need to get out of the 'black or white' zone, that's how Neo-Cons view the world and look where that's got us.

[Blue_Chill]

25. France and Germany? hmmm

France = free
Germany = Dictator and mass murderer

Iraq = Dictator and mass murderer
America = Free

Sorry but you example is flawed please try again.

[RPG-7]

27. if you throw around a few more glittering generalities..

it would definately make your point clearer.

[Patriot_Spear]

28. Bush* fits your description- try to catch up here...

Bush* has killed thousands of Iraqis and hundreds of Americans with a war based on lies. You conveniently omit that Reagan and Bush 41 armed/supplied your ' Dictator and murderer'.

As far as the political situation of the countries compared- to a partisan it is a matter of nationalism, not politics.

If you think that the US is some paragon of virtue, you are dilusional. Only a educated and aware citzenry can oppose mosters from Bush*. You clearly are not up to par on this account.

[Blue_Chill]

38. hmm

Bush* has killed thousands of Iraqis and hundreds of Americans

This is the same in all war. People die. In this all wars are similar.

You conveniently omit that Reagan and Bush 41 armed/supplied you ' Dictator and murderer'.

So did the European nations and Russia, open your eyes and stop pretending we don't sell arms to everyone. GOP is about money unless they are threatening a county to distract Americans from a mess they've made, you can bet your ass they are selling dangerous people weapons. This goes for RW parties in most nation of the world not just the US.

If you think that the US is some paragon of virtue, you are dilusional

I never claimed such a thing. But then again you seem to think it's singular in its villainy when in reality it's par for the course when compared to other advanced western nations.


Only a educated and aware citzenry can oppose mosters from Bush*. You clearly are not up to par on this account.

If you think refusing to call a terrorist a terrorist makes you educated so be it. However, there are plenty of other words that would describe your current mental state much more accurately.

I'm sorry but I don't need a good guy and a bad guy to function. The US invasion was wrong but that does not as you seem to wish excuse the terrorism.

[Patriot_Spear]

42. Simple answers for simple minds...

Your attachment to black and white answers will not serve you well at all times. It may be comforting, but only in the way a child is comforted by the familiar.

Good luck.

[leanings]

30. huh

"The French killed German colabarators and the Contra's, who Reagan and the CIA bankrolled, routinely used torture and rape to terrorize the country people."

Yeah, and that was cool, right?

[Patriot_Spear]

33. You'd have to read the thread to understand-

Just read through it again. Blue Chill is currenlty spouting the GOP talking point on 'overthowing Saddam'.

[leanings]

36. I've read the thread.

I just don't see any gray area in killing civilians to influence their behavior. It was wrong when the Contras did it and wrong when the Iraqis do it.

[Patriot_Spear]

39. Well that's one view...

I don't have to convince you of anything- but you can't ignore the alternative opinions.

Like I said, it's a gray area.

[Solomon]

3. I might be sleepy, but I didn't see a reference

to "terrorist" attacks. It's amazing how we have come to accept the violence isn't it. A bad night and it hardly makes the news.

[JanMichael]

5. It was edited.

The author correctly changed the subject line.

No harm no foul.

[Zuni]

4. suicide bombers

are terrorists. Most of these guys are probably Baathist paramilitary or Islamic Fundamentalists---no one else could have had the level of organization these guys display. They had weapons and money stashed ahead of time.

[JanMichael]

6. Kamakazi pilots were terrorists?

Hmm...

That doesn't really matter anyway because I was refering to the helicopter hit with the alleged RPG round.

[Zuni]

8. Kamikazes

were military forces, wearing uniforms, in marked military planes.
They were also only used a few times, In Leyte Gulf, Okinawa and Iwo Jima so they never really had a chance to terrorize anything but the US Navy.

If you look at the attacks---a suicide bomber in a civilian auto, a bomber at a mosque and a suicide bomber on the street in Moscow, thos fit the definition of low grade terrorist actions.

[leanings]

32. Kamakazi's targeted military ships.

I agree it's almost impossible to get a good definition, but deliberate targeting of civilians is a start.

[htuttle]

10. What if they use a remote control?

...or a trip wire?

I just fail to see the relevance of a bomb's delivery system, I guess.

There was fairly widespread military training in Iraq -- one of the leftovers from the Iran-Iraq war. Of course they had money and weapons stashed ahead of time -- Bush telegraphed his invasion for over a year ahead of time. It seems the only ones who didn't think he'd invade were the Democrats in Congress.

I wouldn't underestimate the effect of non-affiliated guerilla attacks. Given the situation the US troops are in, it hardly takes a Napolean to cause them damage. It is common, and understandable, for the US to want to exaggerate the strength and power of those they are fighting, since US troops are taking daily damage from them.

Embarrassingly enough, however, it often seems that average Iraqi fishermen are able to put scars on the 'strongest military force in the world' (certainly the most expensive, if nothing else). We hate the thought of that, so like to think that it must be 'Dr Evil' behind it all. That line of thinking, without evidence to back it up, will only lead to a pointless and expensive prolonging of the bloodshed due to a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation.

[Zuni]

15. Some of thes guys

know what they are doing. Using mortars is something you need training to do, as well as sniping.
Some of these guys might be non affiliated. Some might even be street gangs. But there is a core of well discliplined fanatical fighters with acsess to hardcore weaponry that had to have been set aside, and a lot of money to raise and pay forces with.

No doubt we have gotten hit by some rank amateurs though.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

17. Where's Osama?

Where's Saddam? Just asking.

[Zuni]

18. Probably in Cancun

getting some sun, checking out the ladies.

[Blue_Chill]

21. I've been to Cancun

and trust me if that guy thinks women should dress up as Pac Man ghosts then Cancun would be far to offensive for him to stay long.

[oc2002]

45. Terrorist labels??

So, is it now fair to call the WW2 bombing of London a Terrorist action by the Nazis?

Or the bombing of Dresdin(sp?) by the allies in that catigory now?

In a war situation, like now, the pentagon will label the enemy they are fighting in as inhumane a manner as much as possible to justify any and all actions. Such as the label 'enemy combatants' taken in Afghanistan and held in Guantanmo indefinately, instead of Prisoners of War because to call them POW is to enact the Genieva Conventions which we should be abiding by as a civilized nation.